Nature? or Nurture?

[chuckincville]

This poll is the result of discussions with a non-nudist who suggested that they were born with an attachment to clothes and the aversion to personal and social nudism is natural and possibly genetic.

The poll was also prompted by a recent post by Nacktman, on another thread, where he said: "The Mrs is fond of saying, 'we was raised different, is all'..." This would suggest that genetics has nothing to do with our willingness to accept or reject a naturist lifestyle.

Thanks for your vote and comments! :)
Chuck

[walter05]

Anyone who has raised kids knows that kids start out comfortable being nude. A preference for clothes is learned.

[EricNY]

It would all depend on who we are talking about. To young children it is nature and then slowly turns into being a product of our environment. The latter will completly over ride the former.

[Sanslines]

We are all born nude and as we grow up we learn the rights and wrongs of the society that we live in. Unless we continue to keep an open mind, and to question anything and everything that is presented to us, we will generally accept whatever the society norm is by default. Most people are approval seeking individuals and will do whatever is necessary to fit in with society expectations.

[David77]

Anyone who has raised kids knows that kids start out comfortable being nude. A preference for clothes is learned.

I suppose that naturism or nudism is a "social movement", so children's preference for being nude would not be naturism.

Aren't (most) all "isms" a (social) movement? I will have to think about my question and I may come up with an answer.

[walter05]

All of my children loved to run around nude. They had to learn that it was not appropriate at times.

No one told them it was a movement.

[Raul_Duke]

Our children want to run around naked and have no sense of right or wrong.

[tomkojohn]

First, the wording of the poll should be fixed.

Second, I interpreted the poll as asking if the desire to wear clothing, or not is genetically based, or due to how one is raised (environmental factors). The old nature vs. nurture argument.

Given this interpretation, I would have to vote that it is a function primarily if not totally of nurture (our environment). If I was raised in a society where no one was ever seen nude, I doubt I'd go around nude. On the other hand if I was raised in a society where people almost always went around naked, I doubt if I'd ever wear clothing, unless the weather called for it. In between these extremes, I would suggest that the surrounding culture has a great effect on people's attitudes and feelings towards being nude/clothed. There may be some genetic disposition, but if you believe the evolutionary biologists, there would have to be some survival benefit of a preference for being nude/clothed to be genetic in origin. Off the top of my head, I don't see a way this could occur, unless it was something like people in cold climes would die without clothes, and in hot climes, people would die with too many clothes, but this argument isn't convincing to me.

Cheers,

-- tomkojohn

[KNude]

Most human behavior is overdetermined. It is a mix of our genetic make up and the influence of our enviornment.

[Eric6420]

Personaly, I just think that some cultures are more open to nudism (scandinavian, german and now spanish) than others ( arabic, persian...).

The question should be "Where body shame comes from?"

Of course, in winter you need clothes to fight the cold weather, but wearing clothes for swimming makes no sense at all exept for not offending non nudists.

Probably man began to wear clothes for cold weather, and then came a body shame ideology that was a cultural error in my viewpoint.

[Eric6420]

I would add that nudity is very natural but aversion to it is not.

[chuckincville]

First, the wording of the poll should be fixed.

Second, I interpreted the poll as asking if the desire to wear clothing, or not is genetically based, or due to how one is raised (environmental factors). The old nature vs. nurture argument.

Given this interpretation, I would have to vote that it is a function primarily if not totally of nurture (our environment). If I was raised in a society where no one was ever seen nude, I doubt I'd go around nude. On the other hand if I was raised in a society where people almost always went around naked, I doubt if I'd ever wear clothing, unless the weather called for it. In between these extremes, I would suggest that the surrounding culture has a great effect on people's attitudes and feelings towards being nude/clothed. There may be some genetic disposition, but if you believe the evolutionary biologists, there would have to be some survival benefit of a preference for being nude/clothed to be genetic in origin. Off the top of my head, I don't see a way this could occur, unless it was something like people in cold climes would die without clothes, and in hot climes, people would die with too many clothes, but this argument isn't convincing to me.

Cheers,

-- tomkojohn

Yes, I agree, the poll is poorly worded. I beg your indulgence, as this is my first atempt at posting a new thread and perhaps a poll was not the best choice to begin with.

Your interpertation is exactly what I had in mind. The question was also meant to include what aspects of "nature/nurture affect/effect our openess -as adults - to accept or reject naturism.

When the idea that the desire to go naked might be genetic was proposed to me it seemed rediculous. Of course we're born naked - so it's natural - right?
Well, after some thought and discussion I think it not as simple as it first appears. Having been intimately involved in observing the growth of eight children it is very obvious that personalities are apparent at a very early age - months - even weeks after birth. Some personalities are more open to new ideas, some are more social, some more shy and naturally reticent.

Although I refrained from voting I hold strongly to the Nurture side of this. Parents are the first in forming our attitudes and opinions within a societal framework and to some degree, at least, help form our personalities through encouragement or criticism.
It's not until we start to think for ourselves that we may even question these attitudes which control our behavior.

So, if you're not "born a free spirit" and your personality is not the adventureous type is it natural for you to be less open to the lifestyle? Pehaps nature does play a part?

Chuck :confused:

[David77]

No one told them it was a movement.

When they get older you may possibly tell them about the movement.

[TANZ]

I voted nature.
In my personal experience I was raised in a house where I can not remember seeing any of my siblings or parents nude.None of my friends,until about 16 or 17 was a nudist.
However from about the age of 14 0r 15,if ever I was left alone at home,or could find an out of way place,I enjoyed stripping off and feeling the air or sun on my body...I still do.
I now have a family of my own and friends that also enjoy that feeling.Our weekends are spent at a local Sun club enjoying sports,swimming,or just catching up,au natural

I was not raised as a nudist,but when I stripped off it just felt so good,comfortable and natural.

Cheers
KIWI

[SpiderThug]

While we are born naked and most kids love running around naked, I voted nurture because of how society conditions us.

[Sanslines]

When they get older you may possibly tell them about the movement.

I have heard some of the older nudists talk about the 'movement'. The movement that they are referring to occured in the 1960's. Anyone born after the 1960's will not know of any movement and the movement that occured in the 1960's has long since died out. Just as an aside, in today's world, it is best to be very careful throwing around old words that had different meanings way back when. In today's time, 'movement' to young people usually refers to constipation.

[Nudony]

Tough question. Because there are so many things that make up who we are, from genetics to outside influences. It is not uncommon in some families to have one child with a proclivity for nudity, and another with a reluctance to to it; in spite of their identical upbringing.

I think sometimes it's nature, and sometimes it's nurture.

[Greys]

Im not saying it's genetic. I just remember wanting to be outside without clothes at the age of 9. Somewhere in the highschool years I first went skinny dipping and over the years did quite alot. No one in my family was a nudist it was what I considered until recenty 'one of my quirks'. Now I realize Im not the Lone Ranger. My conclusion is nudity is natural to me while wearing clothes was conformity and often practical in this northern climate

[alfredr]

I can't vote because I can't choose which it is. By the way, I think the wording is fine. First off, I agree with David77 that children being nude is not naturism, it's just natural. Not all nudity is nudism. I don't know about all isms being social movements however, David, capitalism, for instance? But they are a sort of value system or belief system or philosophy. maybe?

I would go so far as to say that children are born with a personality even. Ask any woman who has had more than one baby, different pregnancies, not twins, if they behave the same in the womb.

So, I think there is a natural urge to be naked, i.e., comfortable. at a young age and that naturalness may show up again at a later age as an openness to naturism in those who are raised textile, as TANZ says was his case.

Those that was raised different, in a family that practiced family nudism regularly, would seem to be open to nudism by nurture even if a child were the one with a natural reluctance to nudity, as Nudony suggests.

Then there are those families that aren't strict one way or the other, ones with an openness to nudity, or at least where it wasn't a big deal seeing someone else naked occasionally, more common in the past when families were larger and houses were smaller and had fewer bathrooms or bedrooms. With them, you can't tell what went into at least two of us being open to nudism (I'm almost sure about my sister, don't have any idea how my two brothers feel.)

[alfredr]

Oh yeah, I meant to comment that it would be interesting to see in the next 5 or 10 or 20 years what kind of attitudes Stu's kids develop. For instance, I wonder if his daughter was influenced at all to study medicine because it was the only 'socially acceptable' way to see naked people, at least according to the way she was raised?

[nakedjohn]

For an adult, it is a reaction to all the layers of clothes he has to wear. Whenever the temperature is right, you just want to take your clothes off.

[tomkojohn]

Would someone at least edit the poll so it says "our" instead of "or" (I think this is what the author meant)?

I am not one to be complaining about spelling :rolleyes:, but at least in polls it helps to avoid confusion. It took me a while to parse the sentence the way it is now.

-- tomkojohn

[chuckincville]

Would someone at least edit the poll so it says "our" instead of "or" (I think this is what the author meant)?

I am not one to be complaining about spelling :rolleyes:, but at least in polls it helps to avoid confusion. It took me a while to parse the sentence the way it is now.

-- tomkojohn

Sorry, it was a typo.

[nudebushwalker]

- just consider, for example, Australian Aborigines, many Pacific islanders, New Guinea, and Amazon natives in their 'natural' state - a lot of clothing they now wear was introduced by Europeans.

I would like those who support the 'nature' answer, to give examples of a people who are born with the desire to wear clothes ??

[Hadaka04]

Don't want to speculate outside of the knowledge that I have. I have found I just end up in trouble when I do that. So from my limited experience, I would say nature. Similar to Tanz, here is why I think that.

My nurturing was in a loving house probably not much different that Stu's. After we were 4 or 5 no one saw anyone else undressed. The overtones (heavily influenced by religion) were that nudity was an abomination only engaged in by harlots, pin-up girls (harlots) and people having sex outside of marriage (probably with harlots). Yet in the midst of this strict up-bringing I found that I was only truly comfortable when I didn't have a stitch of clothing on. I would delay getting dressed after bathing, when getting ready for bed, or anytime I was changing. I would undress under the covers after going to bed, since it mom made it clear that sleeping was only done in pajamas. I found that if I was sick and stayed home from school that I would feel much better if I got naked after mom went to work. It was natural and comfortable, and despite what I had been taught, did not seem to involve harlots or the desire to be with a harlot.

I am now the father of four children and to keep peace with DW do not go nakie around the house. They each know that dad does his naked time but does it when they are not around or have already gone to bed. That said they each have had differing attitudes about it. Our youngest would probably join me if mom allowed. The oldest has always, always been bodyphobic and will not change in sight of anyone. This really makes it inconvenient when we go camping and want to have desginated times for the guys and the girls in the tent for changing.

Only daughter thinks it is funny and will joke about it, but doesn't want to see it. When she was very young she would come to the basement where I was exercising (naked, but out of sight of everyone) to bring me shorts to put on. Then run back up stairs to tell mom that she had taken shorts to dad so he wouldn't have to be naked in the basement.

In summary, while nurture may influence, I have both felt and observed that everyone brings their own take on it into life with them. It can be limited, expanded or just allowed to be, but it is unique to that person. Is it genetic, in that it is passed from one generation to the next? No. Is it something we are born with? I believe it is. YMMV.

Hadaka

[TANZ]

- just consider, for example, Australian Aborigines, many Pacific islanders, New Guinea, and Amazon natives in their 'natural' state - a lot of clothing they now wear was introduced by Europeans.

I would like those who support the 'nature' answer, to give examples of a people who are born with the desire to wear clothes ??

I may be interpretting the question wrongly,but I understand it to mean "does nature or nurture create nudists/naturists?
Therefore as an answer to your question above I can not give any examples of a people born with the desire to be clothed.
I believe people are born nude and at birth see nothing wrong with nudity..that would be NATURE would it not.
Then as the majority grow up,or are converted by other cultures as was the Aborigines and my own people,the NZ Maori,they are convinced that nudity is shameful, wrong, dirty...whatever and forced to wear clothes...this would be NURTURE,though I would call it more like brainwash.

Naturally
Kiwi

[Procrastinator]

Tough question. Because there are so many things that make up who we are, from genetics to outside influences. It is not uncommon in some families to have one child with a proclivity for nudity, and another with a reluctance to to it; in spite of their identical upbringing.

I think sometimes it's nature, and sometimes it's nurture.

I think Nudony hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how it is with my stepdaughters.

They are only 18 months apart, have no other siblings, were raised together, but they are like night and day. You wouldn't even know that they're sisters. Until I came into their lives in 1994, they were raised not knowing anything other than a "textile" upbringing. While their mom quickly became a naturist after meeting me, it was never pushed onto the kids. While teens, they were aware of it and accepted it, but wanted no part of it for themselves.

The Older of the two spontaneously chucked her swimsuit at the age of 18. While she never really became a full fledged naturist, she was totally comfortable being nude around her mom and me right from the start that day.

The younger one was, still is, and probably always will be EXTREMELY modest. She'd probably be mortified if even her mom or sister saw her nude, let alone me.

With the two of them, it's probably a little nature and more than a little nurture. While they were raised together, they've had widely varying influences from both within and from outside the family. With the younger one I've got to think that those outside influences were a lot stronger than the family influence.

Joe

[nudenwv]

i chose nature. yes we are all born naked then are taught quickly that clothing is more appropriate. that then leads us to believe no one wants to see our bodies nude! society makes us feel even more sheltered about the idea of being nude.

[Rick_42]

I can't believe that genetics has anything to do with it. We're born naked and until they are taught differently, children naturally prefer to be nude. Body shame and the compulsion to wear clothes are the result of cultural conditioning. We are taught to be ashamed of our bodies and to wear wear clothing. Those messages are constantly being reinforced by the media, religion, and government. Without those influences I think most would be nude except for protection from the elements. Most native cultures in the more tropical climates never had any concept of body shame until the missionaries came in.

Being nude is nature, wearing clothes is cultural "nurturing". It's a shame we live in a world where everything "natural" is seen as something that must be conquered or done away with.

[Fitz1980]

I chose nature simply because of my sister. We are only 2 years apart. In fact exactly 2 years apart as she was born on my 2nd birthday and we are night and day on the subject. We were raised in the same house, by the same parents over nearly the same time period. I'm a nudist, who finds nudity to be the most comfortable, natural and fun thing in the world. When my sister lived in the dorms in college she told me that she didn't like returning to the dorm after an early class (say it's 11:00 AM and she's just back from her 9:00 AM class) to see other girls walking the halls of the GIRLS' DORM WITH NOTHING BUT TOWELS OR UNDIES COVERING THEM AS THEY CAME FROM THE SHOWERS.

As my roommate Maria has said; me and my sister are light night and day.

[J.P.]

This is a good poll in that it really made me think about the influences that lead me to be comfortable being nude.
As several others have said there are aspects of both that go into who we are. In my case I would have to say there was a stronger influence of nature in that no one else in my family is comfortable nude.
To this day I have never seen another member of my family nude (except my sisters when they were babies). Even though most of them have seen me nude and know I am a nudist they have made it very clear they want no part of it and will avoid being around when I am nude.