View Full Version : Digital cameras
MJ_KC
12-04-2007, 05:57 PM
What kind of digital camera does everyone here use? I just upgraded from an Olympus 3.2 MP camera to a Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT 8 MP camera with an 18 to 55 mm zoom lens. As soon as I can locate one, I will also get the 75 to 300 mm telephoto lens. They sold the last one yesterday at the store where I got the camera, so I will have to call around a bit.
So far this camera has shown itself to be exceptional. Picture clarity is hard to believe.
FireProf
12-04-2007, 07:05 PM
Used to be into photography and had a few 35mm cameras and several different lenses but it was a hobby I didn't pursue any longer and now we just have a Canon EOS and each of us has a Canon Sure Shot digital.
All three work enough for us.
luvnaturism
12-05-2007, 10:06 AM
I still own a nice SLR film camera with a good set of lenses. However, a few years back I finally admitted to myself that the reason the camera was sitting unused was that I am no longer willing to carry a bulky camera around with me. I bought a 7 megapixel Olympus digital camera that fits in my shirt pocket (or in a pocket of my backpack if I'm hiking nude).
My wife is the enthusiastic photographer. She has a newer model Olympus that gets a lot of work. When we travel I take my laptop along, and she downloads her pictures every night so that she can work on them. On a recent trip I took maybe 50 pictures while she was taking 1200+.
Pete Knight
12-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Never been into photography, always managed to make a complete hash of it, for every 24 exposure film I only ever got about 18 half decent photos out it, but since the advent of digital photography I can view and delete any thumb, foot or nasal upshots without the local film processing lab having a laugh at my expense.
To hell with the old fashioned way, I'm very happy with my digital camera, you purist photographers can keep your chemicals.
Pete Knight
PascoDoug
12-05-2007, 10:34 AM
What kind of digital camera does everyone here use? I just upgraded from an Olympus 3.2 MP camera to a Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT 8 MP camera with an 18 to 55 mm zoom lens.
So far this camera has shown itself to be exceptional. Picture clarity is hard to believe.
I also have a Canon 8MP digital camera (Powershot A630) and am very pleased with it. The picture quality is amazing. I also use a Canon scanner and printer, both of which are excellent. Canon definitely puts out quality stuff!
As soon as I can locate one, I will also get the 75 to 300 mm telephoto lens. They sold the last one yesterday at the store where I got the camera, so I will have to call around a bit.
You might want to try Ebay. I bought a nice wide angle lens on there for my last camera.
Boreas
12-05-2007, 10:34 AM
I currently have a Sony Cybershot that is a couple of years old. I love it. I have been playing around with some of the settings lately and ended up taking a ton of pictures during a road trip in the summer. The picture in my avatar was taken with that picture.
Now I am lusting after the newer Sonys and the digital SLRs.
Some day.
MJ_KC
12-05-2007, 11:11 AM
What is amazing with these cameras is the fact that at high resolution I can still save over 500 pictures to the 2 GB CF card. That is a major improvement over my older Olympus camera.
I will still use the old camera though when I want a smaller camera to carry. It does really good for most pictures, but the new one is a major step up. My avatar was made with the Olympus. It is going to be too cold to be doing any nude shots outside for quite a few months.
MoonShadow
12-05-2007, 11:31 AM
Guess I am old fashion but I continue to use my Nikkon and Minolta SLR 35 mm camera over my Sony 8.5 mp digital. I like to work a camera for a shot and that is what the 35 mm SLR allows you to do. Time exposures are one of my favorites and I love to use filters to create different effects using the light you are time exposing in.
Digitals reign for certain but I'll take my 35s ........
NakedGary
12-05-2007, 09:15 PM
I kept my film SLR's and lens sets from the 60-70's but rarely use them as a nudist photographer just has no place to put them unless you want to sling bags or cases around and change lens.
During large annual nudist events with 2,500 in attendance, digital images and video can be uploaded & projected to large screens on the same evening as the event which is usually a big hit for those in attendance. This would be next to impossible with film cameras.
For six years I have gotten by with a 3.2MP & Zoom digital camera that has served me well in all kinds of environments from moisture, heat to sandy environments not to mention sun tan/block lotion smeared occasionally on the rear LCD and front element of the zoom lens.
I recently splurged for a HD High Definition Still/Video digital camera with optical image stabilization, and higher zoom capabilities with digital stereo sound. Very nice to have high performance, high resolution, larger zoom and HD performance out of one light, hand size digital camera that has manual as well as a complete range of auto modes and settings.
I also have a dedicated high resolution film/transparency scanner, and a Canon high resolution flatbed scanner for projects planned before the old Kodachrome and Ektachrome negatives,transparencies and prints taken many years ago fade or change color more so, and boxes of old family prints and negatives. [Good cold day and winter projects to get everything archived to digital and optical format if I can ever can get around to it..]
NudistGuy47
12-05-2007, 09:52 PM
I currnetly use a Nikon D80 with multiple lenses. I enjoy the hobby and will shoot most anything.
I also still use the 17 yo Nikon 6006 with multiple lenses and filters. I am learning the D80 can do the whole gamut the 6006 does, so it is fun discovering the tools.
Whatever one has, I hope they just enjoy the shooting and viewing of the pics.
OZJames
12-05-2007, 11:28 PM
I have a Ricoh Caplio R1 which is a very small digital camera. It has been good but the trouble is my wife has a Canon EOS 40D which takes spectacular photos. When compared with my Ricoh it makes my pictures from the Ricoh look a bit second rate. BUT the Cannon weighs 3 tonnes :laugh: to carry so when we are out and about I have my tiny Ricoh in my pocket to take the opportunity shots. For that it's great.
About 18 mths after I bought it the lens got stuffed up with grit and had to be cleaned. Ricoh wanted $200 to clean it so i protested loudly and they agreed to do it for $50. The lesson is that these small cameras are VERY prone to getting dirt in them and stuffing up the zoom lens.
The camera is good for outdoor shots but the flash is very poor and indoor shots of people, parties etc, especially with the flash are hopeless. My son has a Ricoh and a Cannon and he uses the ricoh for outdoors and the Cannon for indoor flash shots.
I am considering upgrading to a
Ricoh Caplio R7 with 7 x optical Zoom but somebody said the lens is fragile and causes trouble. Has anybody any experience with a Ricoh Caplio R7 ?
BlobbyBob
12-06-2007, 01:34 AM
I have a Canon EOS 350D (Digital Rebel XT) with the standard 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens (since I can't affor any more right now) and have managed to snap near 11,000 photos with it so far (nearly 9 months).
If anyone wants to take a look at some of my shots, checkout my FlickR page (if it's ok to post here) -
http://www.flickr.com/blampish
MJ_KC
12-06-2007, 04:09 AM
I have a Canon EOS 350D (Digital Rebel XT) with the standard 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens (since I can't affor any more right now) and have managed to snap near 11,000 photos with it so far (nearly 9 months).
That is the same camera kit that I just bought. 11,000 photos is a lot. I am going to check today and see if I can find a 75-300mm telephoto lens.
PBinglevum
12-06-2007, 07:59 AM
Casio Z1000 & I recommend that if you want decent photos you buy something else.
Its a all singing all dancing compact digital that is overloaded with goodies. But you cant beat a good lens size. Yes-- Im not happy with it.
BlobbyBob
12-06-2007, 12:20 PM
That is the same camera kit that I just bought. 11,000 photos is a lot. I am going to check today and see if I can find a 75-300mm telephoto lens.
My previous camera was a Hewlett-Packard PhotoSmart 945 - it was one of those kinds that is a cross between a compact and an SLR, in that it has a larger lens and sensor than a normal compact but the lens is fixed like a compact. I had that for a little over 2 years, and snapped over 22,000 shots in that time with it.
Nudeinbama
12-06-2007, 03:42 PM
I've got an old canon AE-1 and lots of lens and filters in the closet somewhere, but now use my Kodak easy share"PHD "-Push here Dummy , 2 megapixel digatal solely. I've been looking at upgrading, but am happy with the shots I presently get with it. I've been a good guy this year, maybe Santa will bring me a new one,Ha.:laugh:
Nudeinbama
NakedGary
12-06-2007, 04:00 PM
Nudeinbama.
If you have any say so in the picking and like Kodak, look at the Z812 IS.
It's a lot of bang for the bucks and available for the low to mid $200"s
Specifications (http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=11594&pq-locale=en_US)
MJ_KC
12-07-2007, 05:20 PM
I finally got my 75-300mm lens today, so my camera is complete. A few months back, I was thinking that it would cost me $1200 to $1400 to get the kind of camera I wanted. This does everything I wanted and the total was about $900 for everything that I got.
usuallylurk
12-07-2007, 11:45 PM
That is the same camera kit that I just bought. 11,000 photos is a lot. I am going to check today and see if I can find a 75-300mm telephoto lens.
I have an older generation rebel. I think it tops out at 4MPx on the RAW setting. I shoot at "high medium" - which is just fine.
You should be able to pick up a Canon 75-300 from one of the New York dealers.
Three I've dealt with often -
B&H in New York City , both via phone and in the store
Adorama, also in New York City - via phone
Abe's Of Maine, which is not in Maine but New Jersey - on the phone.
All three - outstanding service, great prices, good people to deal with.
Another recommendation - get a subscription to Popular Photography and Imaging. Cheap (around $1 / copy if you subscribe long-term) and full of ads, reviews, and photography tips.
I would like a small pocket cam, however, because the Rebel is great but a pain in the neck to haul around.
RalphVa
12-15-2007, 05:46 AM
I currently have a Vivitar Vivicam and am looking to replace it. It's slow. The auto focus isn't that great. It also has an irritating video mode that gets selected by the knob being rotated on its own in pouches where I keep it. I've been asking about for recommendations.
My previous boss uses a Canon A710 and had another Canon before it. One of the master gardeners sent me some beautiful shots done with the Elph.
One MG uses a Kodak, and another uses an Olympus. Shots from both those have been very good, better than from my Vivicam.
Hopefully, the Elph or one of the Canons will use a memory card readable by my card reader. Think I'll take it to the camera store to be sure.
Nude in the North
12-15-2007, 07:00 AM
We have had 3 digital cameras.
First was an Olympus 3000
For a small camera it takes great pictures and has an excellent Macro setting for very close up shots. It was great for those times when lugging extra baggage wasn't convienent.
Cannon EOS Digital Rebel
I already had an EOS Rebel 35mm with several lenses, so that influenced our choice on this camera. Cannon lenses fit both the 35mm and the digital cameras.
Cannon Power Shot S3 IS
A little disappointing. All the features on this camera were average at best.
Cannon EOS 40D Vs. Nikon D 80
We did a side by side comparison on these cameras at Best Buy.
The Nikon won in every catagory. Faster, Sharper, Better True Color, And Price.
Hopefully My wife will be happy with it for a long time.
NudeTopher
12-15-2007, 10:24 AM
I have a Canon EOS 350D (Digital Rebel XT) with the standard 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens (since I can't affor any more right now) and have managed to snap near 11,000 photos with it so far (nearly 9 months).
If anyone wants to take a look at some of my shots, checkout my FlickR page (if it's ok to post here) -
http://www.flickr.com/blampish
Do you know if the lenses from a 35mm Cannon will work on a Cannon digital slr?
usuallylurk
12-15-2007, 10:51 AM
The old A, AE- and F- series lenses do not fit the Canon digitals.
If you have a film Rebel, I think its lenses fit the digital rebel.
But yeah, I had to buy a new 70-300 lens when I bought the Rebel. One thing I shoulda-coulda-woulda done -- decline the stock lens that comes with the kit, which would have yielded a $99 credit at the time -- and purchased a better 30-60MM range lens for another $40-60.
But it's been good to me so far. Four years, a couple of thousand pics. But I am in the market for a pocket camera.
PeteINA
12-15-2007, 10:54 AM
Do you now if the lenses from a 35mm Cannon will work on a Cannon digital slr?
Some auto-focus 35mm lenses will work on digital SLR cameras from the same manufacturer. Best to consult with your favorite photo store experts to be sure. If the lenses can be mounted on the D-SLR camera, they'll present very different focal length characteristics than when mounted on the 35mm SLR.
See www.dcresource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1848.html (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1848.html) and similar threads for additional information.
Pete.
MJ_KC
12-15-2007, 12:59 PM
I have the 18-55mm and 75-300mm lenses, but I may see if I can find an 18-85mm or something similar. This camera is working really great and it gets better the more that I use it. I do need to set down with the manual and read about some of the features that I don't use much. I am sure that it can do plenty of things that I don't even know about yet.
My Canon Digital rebel XT, combined with Photoshop 7.0, gives me some really good digital image capabilities.
usuallylurk
12-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Hey, I've had mine for at least four years (I think five) and I have never run it in anything but "automatic" mode.
I have changed the picture resolution -- I do not shoot at "top resolution" but second from the top... you can adjust the shutter, etc. but I keep life simple - I just aim and shoot.
I have an 28-80 (I think) for my old AE-1... good wide angles.
Google on "Canon lenses" and get to the Canon USA site... you can look at the specs for ANY lens that they make in the EF series.
BTW - the old film lenses for the A/AE/F series were called "FD Lenses".
For the Rebel, they're called "EF lenses".
usuallylurk
12-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Some auto-focus 35mm lenses will work on digital SLR cameras from the same manufacturer. Best to consult with your favorite photo store experts to be sure. If the lenses can be mounted on the D-SLR camera, they'll present very different focal length characteristics than when mounted on the 35mm SLR.
See www.dcresource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1848.html (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1848.html) and similar threads for additional information.
Pete.
Food for thought - because I read up on this -- again, it pays to read Popular Photography -- which is in my bathroom magazine rack.
There was a reply to a letter from a user - January 2008 edition, p 144 under "Tech Support, your questions answered"
and I quote =
Q "I finally made the switch to digital with a Canon EOS Digital Rebel. Previously, I owned Canon A-1 and AE1 35mm film SLRs, so I have quite a few FD-series manual focus lenses. I remember reading about an adapter that would let me use some of the FD lensess, albeit without autofocus. I can't find this adapter anywhere on the Internet. Does such a thing actually exist?"
Pop Photo's reply =
"Yes, there are such adapters, but most come with one huge liability; Because of the radically different lensmount-to-film plane distances between EOS and FD lenses, FDS lenses often can't focus to infinity when mounted on EOS cameras. (The adapters position the lense further away from the image plane, and thus inadvertenly act as extension tubes.) Those that manage to focus to infinity do so by adding optical elements that compromise sharpness. You can find them at many mail-order photo retailers by searching for an "FD to EOS adapter." The street price : around $50."
So IMHO - the average user like me had a stock 55mm lens that came with his/her AE-1, probably a 75-300 lense, and maybe even a third one. SO ... I just went forward and bought a new 75-300 lens with USM on it .. to fully take advantage of the Rebel's technology.
It goes for around $175-200 online new. I bought mine from B&H some time ago.
There are two models - one is DC driven and the other is USM -- I have the latter, which has a street price of (whoopee) $20 more or so.
From what I have read, the USM motor is a better one, quieter, faster autofocus, so considering we're not talking a lot of moohah between the "biscayne" and "impala" here, my uneducated nod would go to the USM model.
(well, hell, I already did.)
I read the books and magazines and learn a lot -- but three years ago at Eastover, there were two professional photographers. One gave a couple of lectures (the husband) and his wife conducted a nude photoshoot session. I learned more from them in two hours than I ever would have from hours on the 'net. The photoshoot was fabulous, because she taught a lot about posing a model, lighting, shielding, etc.
I also learned , very quickly, that figure photography is probably the most difficult area, if you're going to do it well. So I stick to landscapes and cityscapes.
And at some point in time, I'm going to take one of these three-day, long-weekend seminars in New York.
Pilot
01-17-2008, 11:54 AM
I recently picked up a Sony dSLR out of a clearance bin in a Sears. Got a great deal on it, and have since picked up a 75-300 lens.
The Sony A100 is basically a Minolta Maxxum SLR, that was almost ready, when Sony bought out Minolta and slapped their Sony name on everything. But with these Alpha mount dSLRs, alpha mount Minolta lens will work just fine.
BeachBum
01-17-2008, 06:16 PM
Hello to the photo gurus on site -- I have a question. Does anyone know if Nikon is making a digital adapter (back) for their F series 35mm cameras. All my stuff is 35mm and I would sure hate to have to start buying new equipment, especially if there is another way. It sounds simple in theory -- just change the back like you do a data back -- guess thats probably why I can't find any information on something like this. Anybody ever heard of such a thing? Thanks
Jay
WNYjoe24
01-17-2008, 11:10 PM
Hello to the photo gurus on site -- I have a question. Does anyone know if Nikon is making a digital adapter (back) for their F series 35mm cameras. All my stuff is 35mm and I would sure hate to have to start buying new equipment, especially if there is another way. It sounds simple in theory -- just change the back like you do a data back -- guess thats probably why I can't find any information on something like this. Anybody ever heard of such a thing? Thanks
Jay
I have no idea how that would exist.
Cool trick, but I think what you have to do is something like scan the negatives or pictures there-of and create them as digital. They are 2 very different formats and since one is "analog" there needs to be a conscious effort at conversion.
Joe
johnbare
01-18-2008, 02:57 AM
A few months ago I was allowed to chose a gift, to be presented to me by my company as a long service award. I opted for a Canon G9 camera, which whilst its on the large side as compacts go, is still very convenient to carry. As someone who tends to use a 35 - 70mm lens on 35mm film SLR most of time it will cover most of my needs, although I might get a wide angle adapter later.
I've been happy with the results so far, but in truth I'm still working my way through the various functions. I don't like reading the pdf manual from the PC screen, and so I am slowly printing off the 230 odd pages as I need them.
I do still use film and I am currently photographing the countryside around the area where we live, through the seasons using Kodachrome. This is to create a record of whats there before it disappears in a couple of years or so under more housing and roads. The project is repeating what I did previously about 15yrs or so ago in the same area.
scubare
01-18-2008, 05:52 PM
Guess I am old fashion but I continue to use my Nikkon and Minolta SLR 35 mm camera over my Sony 8.5 mp digital. I like to work a camera for a shot and that is what the 35 mm SLR allows you to do. Time exposures are one of my favorites and I love to use filters to create different effects using the light you are time exposing in.
Digitals reign for certain but I'll take my 35s ........
I LOVE my Fujifilm S5100 as far as digital goes; but it's hard to argue with the 35's sense of 'feel' and 'heft'. I love the way you can paint with light and manipulate 'in camera', things that the digital folks do with Photo Shop. Manipulating the image after the fact seems so artificial and kind of like 'cheating'.:p
scubare
01-18-2008, 06:05 PM
I have a Canon EOS 350D (Digital Rebel XT) with the standard 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens (since I can't affor any more right now) and have managed to snap near 11,000 photos with it so far (nearly 9 months).
If anyone wants to take a look at some of my shots, checkout my FlickR page (if it's ok to post here) -
http://www.flickr.com/blampish
Well done, Bob! I enjoyed your photos very much.:)
MJ_KC
01-18-2008, 07:11 PM
Manipulating the image after the fact seems so artificial and kind of like 'cheating'.:p
Manipulating the image before or after the shot doesn't change the fact that it looks different that what you saw visually.
I prefer my Canon EOS 35mm digital SLR over the Canon AE-1 that I used to use. It isn't even slightly close as to how much more I prefer my digital camera and color printer.
BlobbyBob
01-19-2008, 03:11 AM
I LOVE my Fujifilm S5100 as far as digital goes; but it's hard to argue with the 35's sense of 'feel' and 'heft'. I love the way you can paint with light and manipulate 'in camera', things that the digital folks do with Photo Shop. Manipulating the image after the fact seems so artificial and kind of like 'cheating'.:p
So you don't think that photographers have ever done things in the darkroom before? All Photoshop does is to provide a digital darkroom. It's not always possible to capture something as you like it within the camera, and photography (to me anyway) is about capturing something as I envision it, not just the best I can do with my limited skills with a camera - that would be called a snapshot. I try my best with my camera, but sometimes I have to tweak a little afterwards and I don't see this as a bad thing at all. I can't afford fancy filters so I resort to post-production, and am happy to do it. I don't tend to do much most of the time anyway, but I like having that ability, and as a digital artist myself I pride myself in being able to take a plain image and improving it afterwards.
scubare
01-20-2008, 09:16 PM
OK, I admit it, MJ and Bob, you have valid points. I guess I never really looked at it that way. I wasn't really dissing digitals anyway, afterall I love mine as I said. I still think it lacks the same 'feel' of a 35.
usuallylurk
01-21-2008, 12:48 AM
According to a piece in this month's (February) Popular Photography -- and I don't know if it's an ad or a straight article -- they state that most NFL photographers use the Canon EOS-1D Mark III and the 400mm f/2.8L IS Lens.
Caution for the squeamish and hobby photographer -- the EOS-1D Mark III goes for between $3000 and $4200 depending on where you buy it, and the Canon 400mm f/2.8L IS has a "legit US street price" of around $6500. That's a hefty investment for the professional photographer and a sizable fortune for the amateur.
So - I'm sticking to my Rebel and 75-300 USB lens. I think they work fine, for what I do. Would I love one of those 400mm f/2.8L IS puppies to drop into my hands? Oh yeah! But I know it will never happen.
Still, you can learn a lot just by subscribing to the magazine. I have no commercial interest in it, but for under a buck an issue, it's great reading.
NakedGary
01-21-2008, 01:01 AM
It is unethical for a photo journalist to modify in any way or digitally modify images before publication.
International code of ethics for photographic journalists? (http://mysite.du.edu/~smartin9/DMS/lauren.html#code)
unitednudist
04-01-2008, 10:01 PM
I tend to like the cannon powershot, however Fuji-Film now has a similar model.
marc_naturist
04-02-2008, 12:59 AM
my first digital camera whas a sony mavica, later i got a sony cybershot for my wife and now i use a fuji finepix s6500fd
RalphVa
04-02-2008, 04:05 AM
I ended up buying a Canon A720. It has 6/1 optical zoom and 2/1 digital zoom and uses the same memory card as my old Vivicam and the same 2 AA batteries (which I recharge with solar energy). It was only about $200. For $100 more I could have gotten 10/1 optical zoom. For about the same money, I could have gotten one of those tiny ones with only about 3/1 zoom and requires special batteries. It'll accept another lens, too.
The biggest improvement on the Canon is its SPEED. It takes but 1.1 seconds to "boot" up. The Vivicam needed about 35 seconds. It's also MUCH better for people shots in poor lighting and in landscapes.
The A720 can be used like my old Konica SLR or similar old cameras by auto setting F stop with exposure fixed or setting exposure with F stop fixed. There are also a whole slew of settings for difference landscape/lighting situtations. The macro works GREAT on it to get closeup shots of small stuff like bugs and bees.
unitednudist
04-02-2008, 06:53 PM
my first digital camera whas a sony mavica, later i got a sony cybershot for my wife and now i use a fuji finepix s6500fd
The fuju finepix is the model I was referring to.
Codewize
05-12-2008, 09:03 PM
I use an original Nikon D70 with the 18 - 200 VRII lens. I also just purchased a Nikon P60 to carry in bad weather.
I've had the D70 for 3 or 4 years now and love it. Very versatile, user friendly and travels well.
It is unethical for a photo journalist to modify in any way or digitally modify images before publication... International code of ethics for photographic journalists?
As a working photo journalist, I just wanted to note that the basic issues about digital modification of images closely parallel issues in print and broadcast, eg. editing interviews, selecting quotes, etc. The NPPA code of ethics is pretty clear about fact versus manipulation and fictionalization.
The journalist ideal is actually pretty simple -- to capture a moment objectively for others to experience who weren't there at that moment. But of course, just as in print and broadcast, there are the classic four types of journalists: craftsmen who treat every story whether war or county fair like building a table, frustrated artists who do jounalism like wedding photos for cash-flow while always trying to slip in some art, activists who look to shoot the story to illustrate a point of view, and the prostitutes who shoot the story according to the wishes of whoever pays the junket. The latter three are the ones most likely to transgress the code, but the craftsmen rarely get Pulitzers. Meanwhile, for us craftsmen, digital cameras and tools make it quicker and easier to get and transmit photographic moments.
For amateurs and enthusiasts, who can be as artistic as they want, the current crop of digital cameras and editing tools are simply fabulous. I've been really impressed with the results of my wife's Canon Powershot SD750IS. And doesn't everybody love "skin-smoothing"?
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