How many here does not know his/her gender

[Sauna]

When I look the postings I wonder if people here are not sure of their gender or is there other reason not show it. I know that most are male, but why to hide it in naked society?

[FishyDave]

On a lot of boards, you get people signing up as couples - especially when the subject relates to something that they do as a couple. Obviously neither male nor female fits.

Or maybe some people just don't want to say. Women in particular can get a lot of unwanted attention from message boards, and generally speaking, naturist boards are probably some of the worst.

[Josh-here]

And hopefully with an avatar or a profile pic there is no doubt as to gender... :)

Maybe too, some people fill things out so quickly and skip anything they can.

[MoonShadow]

Very true Dave

On forums you don't need to know who is what. People are people

[Stu2630]

Of course, there may even be people here who are intersex - i.e. born with primary characteristics of both male and female (used to be known as hermaphrodism). It's more common than people realise - and you would never even suspect.

:D

Stu

[Pete Knight]

An estimated 1 in 2000 children born in the USA are interesex, and Jamie Lee Curtis is rumoured to be a hermaphrodite at birth.

As Stu says, it is more common than most people realise, you may even know someone who is.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

So you think there may be one or more people here who have an intersex syndrome?

Hmm. Interesting.

Just out of curiosity, what are these "signs"?

Stu

[Boreas]

I was reluctant to reveal that I was female until they created a women's section in here. When I did reveal I was female, I got lots of unwanted PM's with various propositions. That is why my signature block says I am married. A lot of people do troll these types of boards, believe it or not. Also not all nudists are virtuous! :)

[nudeinwa57]

And then the question, what are you Stu:)

[fre2bnude]

I was reluctant to reveal that I was female until they created a women's section in here. When I did reveal I was female, I got lots of unwanted PM's with various propositions. That is why my signature block says I am married. A lot of people do troll these types of boards, believe it or not. Also not all nudists are virtuous! :)

Just because a woman is married won't stop some from still trying it on. Any female is fair game in their opinion.

[Stu2630]

nudeinwa57

And then the question, what are you Stu:)

Male. Textile. :)

Stu

[Boreas]

Just because a woman is married won't stop some from still trying it on. Any female is fair game in their opinion.

Very true. In my case it has significantly cut down the PMs so that is all that matters as far as I am concerned.

[Pete Knight]

Very true. In my case it has significantly cut down the PMs so that is all that matters as far as I am concerned.Being a geezer doesn't exclude you from unwanted sexual advances on a forum, I had gay advances on another forum I'm registered with.

Pete Knight

[FishyDave]

Being a geezer doesn't exclude you from unwanted sexual advances on a forum, I had gay advances on another forum I'm registered with.
I always found that the closet bi-curious were the worst, on MSN, chat rooms and forums. Often married, and adamant that they're straight, but looking for a guy to talk dirty with or maybe even a bit of 'show and tell' on webcam.

One in particular got himself banned from a forum we're both familiar with for trying it on with one person too many. Every time I see that episode of Little Britain, where the old lady says to the vicar "What that boy really needs is a big **** up his ****", it makes me think of him :laugh:

[boatsteve]

Sanslines

So you think there may be one or more people here who have an intersex syndrome?

Hmm. Interesting.

Just out of curiosity, what are these "signs"?

Stu

And I responded with "look in the mirror" which for some reason was taken down.

Stu, you have publicly stated on this very forum that you are intersexed and was raised female for many years.

My post should not have been removed and I'd like to know who did it.

[Stu2630]

Stu, you have publicly stated on this very forum that you are intersexed and was raised female for many years.

Yes, it's no secret that I was born with that condition, but I'm pretty much indistinguishable from any other adult male now, clothed or otherwise.

My post should not have been removed and I'd like to know who did it.

Well I didn't.

Do you think that maybe you didn't express it in a very supportive way? It's hardly something I can help, is it? I asked what the "signs" were and you just came out with "look in the mirror, Stu", which did make me wince a bit. Do you think, on reflection, saying to me "weren't you born with that syndrome, Stu?" might have been a tad more tactful?

Anyway, no harm done and I'm sure you didn't mean to be hurtful. :)

Stu

[boatsteve]

Do you think that maybe you didn't express it in a very supportive way? It's hardly something I can help, is it? I asked what the "signs" were and you just came out with "look in the mirror, Stu", which did make me wince a bit. Do you think, on reflection, saying to me "weren't you born with that syndrome, Stu?" might have been a tad more tactful?


Why would I ask if you had it when I already knew that you did?
http://www.clothesfreeforum.com/showthread.php?t=6634&page=6

Why were you asking for the symptoms when you of all people would know that better than most on here? You were playing games.

Funny when I read that old thread there was no difference in that one (your very first) and the ones you post on today. There has been absolutely no progress at all. Same old stuff!

[FishyDave]

Why would I ask if you had it when I already knew that you did?
http://www.clothesfreeforum.com/showthread.php?t=6634&page=6

Why were you asking for the symptoms when you of all people would know that better than most on here? You were playing games.
Maybe he was, but I thought the question was still valid: How do you tell, just from chatting on-line whether someone is or has been intersex? How can you tell anyone's gender on the Internet short of camming live with them? Men have been passing themselves off as women on the 'net for well over a decade.

I know Stu is considered a thorn in the side of this forum. I know many would like him to go away. But can't he say anything? Even something unrelated to, let alone critical of nudism? It seems not, without being ripped to shreds.

This is something very personal that he's chosen to share, presumably to give us an insight into why he feels the way he does. Clearly his comment in this thread was meant to be picked up on by 'those in the know' but where did he indicate that he wanted to bring the whole subject up again?

By all means rip into the guy for his beliefs. Give him both barrels for insisting that his right to not see nudity should override your freedom to be nude. Issues arising from his being born intersex are clearly relevant to his viewpoint, but let's not attack him just for being born different.

Frankly, I've found some of the comments on this thread extremely distasteful and distressing. And it generally takes a lot to faze me these days. If the posts are being censored, then maybe I'm not alone in feeling this way.

[Stu2630]

Why were you asking for the symptoms when you of all people would know that better than most on here? You were playing games.

It's usually easy to tell if a contributor here is male or female. I was simply wondering if people here had considered the fact that there maybe intersex people contributing here - would they know if anyone was and if so, how.

Yes, it was a bit playful on my part and aimed at people who are actually aware of my condition, but your response was rather nasty and uncalled for.

Stu

[Naturist4Ever]

How do you tell, just from chatting on-line whether someone is or has been intersex? How can you tell anyone's gender on the Internet short of camming live with them? Men have been passing themselves off as women on the 'net for well over a decade.

Certainly on CFF it has been quite easy to fish out the fakers, i.e. men pretending to women or teens. In fact, unless the message is a one-liner, it is usually quite "easy" to recognise those written by women due to a noticably different writing style (let's say, anything that is a paragraph long or more). I hadn't thought about the possibility of all kinds of genetic gender variations, but now we know and explains something.

[FishyDave]

Certainly on CFF it has been quite easy to fish out the fakers, i.e. men pretending to women or teens. In fact, unless the message is a one-liner, it is usually quite "easy" to recognise those written by women due to a noticably different writing style (let's say, anything that is a paragraph long or more). I hadn't thought about the possibility of all kinds of genetic gender variations, but now we know and explains something.
I suppose that proves that you can catch the less convincing ones out at least :laugh: The truth is - who knows, unless you actually see someone in person? The only way you can ever do that on-line is via a webcam and to see that you're really interacting in real-time with the person on the other end.

I reckon a male with sufficiently feminine personality traits could easily pass themselves off as a female on-line. And vice-versa of course.

[Agde]

Good grief! Every person is some combination or permutation of physical gender, personal gender identity, and gender preference in a partner. Play with hormones, steroids, education, trauma, discrimination, circumstance, social pressure, etc and watch them morph. There are of course also the in-betweeners or bi's in every category and combination.

Trying to distinguish between the "standard" male-male-female and female-female-male prototypes kind of misses the variety. Demanding in addition that people live up to certain "standard" caricatural stereotypes and you have a perfect storm that only benefits plastic surgeons and therapists! How about if we all just strip off the fake stuff, be ourselves and delight in the variety?

[Stu2630]

Agde

How about if we all just strip off the fake stuff, be ourselves and delight in the variety?

Well said! I'm in 100% agreement!

er....I don't have to take my clothes off do I? :surprised:

Stu

[Nude in the North]

When I look the postings I wonder if people here are not sure of their gender or is there other reason not show it. I know that most are male, but why to hide it in naked society?

I'm one of those people that won't answer an optional question just for the sake of it.

An example would be a Race Question on an employment or Government form.
My opinion is , if it's not supposed to influence the outcome of the application, then there is no reason for the question in the first place.

[MoonShadow]

The Forum Boardgame .... this is what the forum is for Stu. Everytime we respond to him we put our gamepieces on the board.

I agree with BoatSteve in that his post should not have been removed from this thread as he was only stating what Stu has obviously informed others, here on his gameboard.

Steve, I read the link to the older forum posts and you are right. All this time, years, and Stu keeps posting the same stuff. He hasn't changed one whit despite all the posters who have responded to him. What a shame. This forum is just a game to him.

On that note, I am removing my "gamepiece" off the board.

[FishyDave]

Yes, Stu likes to play games around here, and he probably does enjoy getting up people's noses. It's even occurred to me that (in the style of a true troll) his persona may be fabricated. He may not be married or have kids. He may never have been intersex in his life.

But right here and now, all of that is irrelevant. What sticks in my throat is the idea that being born intersex would be thrown in somebody's face by supposedly decent people. Those who do it to Stu do it to anyone and everyone who might be reading this who has also been born intersex.

That kind of attack on the basis of race or sexuality would not be tolerated. So why on earth would this be acceptable?

[Agde]

Well said! I'm in 100% agreement!
er....I don't have to take my clothes off do I? :surprised:


lol....not if I don't have to put on mine! :D

[christy799]

Im a woman, last time i checked:D

[boatsteve]

What sticks in my throat is the idea that being born intersex would be thrown in somebody's face by supposedly decent people. Those who do it to Stu do it to anyone and everyone who might be reading this who has also been born intersex.



So you feel that talking about intersex people is a bad thing? Isn't that prejudice?

[Sauna]

I'm one of those people that won't answer an optional question just for the sake of it.

An example would be a Race Question on an employment or Government form.
My opinion is , if it's not supposed to influence the outcome of the application, then there is no reason for the question in the first place.

When I made this not so dangerous question I did not think all what it generated. It was normal curios question without any racism or other hidden thoughts.

You never know what you get.

[FishyDave]

So you feel that talking about intersex people is a bad thing? Isn't that prejudice?
Not at all. Using the topic as an opportunity to attack Stu just because he gets up your nose is the aspect of all this that I find distasteful.

Of course the topic should be open for discussion, but let's treat it with some respect as we would race or sexuality. What's gone on here is hardly a step up the ladder from playground name-calling. I thought we were all adults.

[boatsteve]

Not at all. Using the topic as an opportunity to attack Stu just because he gets up your nose is the aspect of all this that I find distasteful.

Of course the topic should be open for discussion, but let's treat it with some respect as we would race or sexuality. What's gone on here is hardly a step up the ladder from playground name-calling. I thought we were all adults.

There was no attack. This is what I'm saying. If you feel it was an attack then you are the one thinking there is something negative about being intersexed, which makes you prejudice.

All I did was tell him to look in the mirror which is anther way of saying to look at yourself. He's intersexed. That's a fact. Bringing up facts isn't attacking.

[Stu2630]

Boatsteve

All I did was tell him to look in the mirror which is anther way of saying to look at yourself. He's intersexed. That's a fact. Bringing up facts isn't attacking.

I don't mind my birth condition being mentioned if it's relevant. I disclosed it some years ago during a deep discussion with BobS in which he wanted to probe my childhood experiences for something which may have given rise to my aversion to nudity. In the spirit of openness and honesty, I revealed that I was born with this physiological anomaly and that, as a child, I was examined by various medics, nurses, students and others like some sort of freak and eventually came to detest my nether regions being inspected, prodded and poked by people, often out of little more than curiosity.

While I am now a physically normal male (although I still do have a few less obvious physical characteristics from my syndrome), that may partially explain my aversion to exposing my private parts to others. So far as I can tell, it does not account for my dislike of seeing others naked.

That's all that need be said on this. I am not asking the rest of the world to cater to my level of aversion to the sight of nakedness. But the majority of people in the western world do have limits as to how much nudity they are comfortable with, and when and where it should occur. What I object to is the desire by some nudists to "push the envelope" so as to extend their nakedness out of the nudist venues and into the wider textile environment. That is not an extreme view. And I will not accept it is an opinion which can be written off as some neurosis brought about because of a physiological birth anomaly and the life experiences which arose from it. So perhaps you will agree that there is nothing to be gained by mentioning it again.

Stu

[Sanslines]

..........What I object to is the desire by some nudists to "push the envelope" so as to extend their nakedness out of the nudist venues and into the wider textile environment..........
Stu

Stu,

Will you agree in general that if no one ever 'pushed the envelope' on any issue, then the world would be a very stagnant place with no advancements in science, medicine, arts, etc? It is basic human nature to 'push the envelope' as humans are curious individuals and want to learn and grow beyond the status quo. If humans never 'pushed the envelope', then we all would still be living in caves back in the stone age.

Specific to nudity, if society is exposed to normal and healthy nudity that is not used as a marketing tool to sell sex or product, then more people would become much more acepting of nudity and would put the whole issue in it's proper place (ie a non important issue) in the grand scheme of the serious problems that face this world. I know that, due to your continued adament rejection of nudity, that you will never accept this but the majority of others would.

[Pete Knight]

I am not asking the rest of the world to cater to my level of aversion to the sight of nakedness. But the majority of people in the western world do have limits as to how much nudity they are comfortable with, and when and where it should occur. What I object to is the desire by some nudists to "push the envelope" so as to extend their nakedness out of the nudist venues and into the wider textile environment. That is not an extreme view. And I will not accept it is an opinion which can be written off as some neurosis brought about because of a physiological birth anomaly and the life experiences which arose from it. So perhaps you will agree that there is nothing to be gained by mentioning it again.
Stu

There you go again making the assertion that "the majority of people in the western world do have limits as to how much nudity they are comfortable with" whereas I think you are misguided in the feint hope that you are not likely to see the day when nudity is more commonplace. I have always made the claim that you are at the extreme end of the scale and there is a huge middle ground that is neither inclined to nudism, nor is it revolted by nudism, at the centre they don't actually give a damn either way.

Not being content with having to buy our own clubs and hide behind fences, or put up with scraps of beach I firmly believe that we have to push the envelope if we are to achieve the aims YOU set out for us, merely asking the councils and government will get us, and has got us nowhere, that leaves us with having to fight, not only for better facilities and opportunities, but to keep what we've already got. This is how all the rights groups have got themselves heard in the past, be it women's votes, racial equality, gay rights or workers rights.

Pete Knight

[FishyDave]

There was no attack. This is what I'm saying. If you feel it was an attack then you are the one thinking there is something negative about being intersexed, which makes you prejudice.
I think we'd have to ask someone who'd been there whether or not there was anything negative about it. I find it hard to imagine that it's a walk in the park being diagnosed as neither properly male or female. Wouldn't you expect such a condition to carry a lot of trauma and emotional baggage?

So the fact that I've given it that bit of consideration that nobody else seems to have bothered with makes me prejudiced now, does it? What a strange world we live in.
All I did was tell him to look in the mirror which is anther way of saying to look at yourself. He's intersexed. That's a fact. Bringing up facts isn't attacking.
Maybe I read a little too much into the wording. If you'd just said "Stu, let's not beat about the bush, we all know you're intersex yourself, you've said as much" then I'd have been fine about it. It's the "look in the mirror" expression that bothers me. To my mind, it carries the inference that you'll see something rather unsavoury looking back.

But fair enough, I'm probably being a little too touchy and should get off the soapbox now. Stu's clearly thick-skinned enough not to be bothered by it, so no harm done eh?

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

"Pushing the envelope" may have legitimacy for people who are treated as in some way inferior and for the purpose of gaining fair treatment. I do support nudists who push the envelope in certain respects such as establishing an area for nudist use where there were no such facilities beforehand. In that way, you are righting a wrong. The trouble with pushing the envelope is that it is anarchic by its very nature. It undermines the rules of society we all live by and so it should only be used 1. only as a last resort and 2. under the noses of the oppressor or their agents. If it is used other than as a last resort, then it becomes indistinguishable from low-level terrorism. If is used other than under the noses of the oppressor, then it is simply flouting a law because it doesn't suit you.

If a group of nudists defy a local ruling which says they must stop using a beach they have traditionally used, and without having first been offered an acceptable alternative, then they have some justification in staging a nude protest on that beach because both of the conditions apply. If they stage a nude protest without first having gone through the channels to have the decision reversed, then they are in the wrong. Similarly, if they ignore the rules and play cat-and-mouse with the enforcers of the law, then that, too, is reprehensible. I don't generally have an issue with nudists on the "pushing the envelope" strategy because they don't use it irresponsibly. But the public nudity activists are a different story. They have no desire to negotiate any kind of compromise with the wider society - they want to have their way and they will flout the law to get what they want. They are in the business of changing the perception of nakedness that the rest of society holds because they want everyone else to think like they do. They are as odious as any other extremist group.

Specific to nudity, if society is exposed to normal and healthy nudity ... then more people would become much more accepting of nudity and would put the whole issue in it's proper place

No - it's what YOU think is its proper place. Who are you to dictate to the rest of us how we should perceive the naked human body and to try to force this change on us? Harold thinks it's legitimate to do that with open sex and he's as wrong about that as you are about nudity.

I know that, due to your continued adament rejection of nudity, that you will never accept this but the majority of others would.

If you want to persuade someone to accept something, the legitimate way to do it is with language. It is not legitimate to do with with guns, bombs, threats of imprisonment, denying them rights or forcing them to confront sights they are uncomfortable with. The only difference between your approach and that of Al Qaida is the severity of weapons you are using to force people to accept your point.

Pete

there is a huge middle ground that is neither inclined to nudism, nor is it revolted by nudism, at the centre they don't actually give a damn either way

BN's own survey seems to show that a large majority of people will take steps to avoid being around nudity and don't believe it should be accepted in public. Upon being confronted by naked people on a beach, only 15% said they would remain there among those people - the remainder would either leave immediately or call the police. And only 10% said they believe nude sunbathing should be allowed in quiet parts of parks. This is a survey conducted on behalf of nudists!

Not being content with having to buy our own clubs and hide behind fences, or put up with scraps of beach I firmly believe that we have to push the envelope if we are to achieve the aims YOU set out for us, merely asking the councils and government will get us, and has got us nowhere,

You accuse me of being "at the extreme end of the scale", yet I have said all along, and, as I have told Sanslines, there may be occasions when you have no choice other than to push the envelope to get fairness. But fairness means being given a fair share of public lands, not being allowed to get naked wherever you feel like.

Yes, sometimes you should be behind fences etc, if it gives you a facility you wouldn't otherwise have and there may be others in the vicinity who are not comfortable with your nakedness. What's so wrong with fences, anyway? Fences afford nudists the privacy that some actually crave - where they can be out of sight of the gawkers etc.

in the feint hope that you are not likely to see the day when nudity is more commonplace

That's just wishful thinking on your part: I could just as easily make out a case to show that nudism is in terminal decline. For every positive development in nudism, there is a corresponding negative one and I gave you a few examples of that earlier. The truth is that the non-nudist world toys with nakedness for a while, getting braver and braver, and then runs away from it. That happened in the 1920s and then it went out of fashion. It had a resurgence 40 years later in the 1960s and then it receded. Maybe we are in the throes of another nakedness fad, a further 40 years later, but if we are it'll surely fade out of fashion just as the others have done. You see, with the exception of the minority of people who consider themselves to be nudists, people really don't want stranger nudity around them.

Stu

[Sanslines]

No - it's what YOU think is its proper place. Who are you to dictate to the rest of us how we should perceive the naked human body and to try to force this change on us? Harold thinks it's legitimate to do that with open sex and he's as wrong about that as you are about nudity.

If you want to persuade someone to accept something, the legitimate way to do it is with language. It is not legitimate to do with with guns, bombs, threats of imprisonment, denying them rights or forcing them to confront sights they are uncomfortable with. The only difference between your approach and that of Al Qaida is the severity of weapons you are using to force people to accept your point.

Stu

Stu,

You really should join Equity and become an actor. Your highly dramatic performances here would prepare you very well for the acting profession. I completely disagree with you in that if society were given the straight and factual information about what nudism is all about, then we would not have most the problems that we presently have concerning the advancement of nudism. If children were also taught at an early age to respect their bodies, accept their bodies, take care of their bodies, stop being ashamed of their bodies, as well as being educated and informed as to how the nude human form is highly manipulated by marketing and advertising people for the sole purpose of making money, then children might grow up to reject all of the lies and distorted nonsense surrounding nudism.

You must also be learning from the American Presidential candidates for some of our candidates are engaged in accusing their opponents of behaviors that they themselves are clearly guilty of and yet when confronted with this they, of course, deny it. You are accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing and that is to demand what you will and will not accept. You are smart enough to know that education is not 'dictating' anything to anyone and that the education of society about nudism has absolutely nothing to do with guns, bombs, imprisonment, terrorists, Al Quida, etc. You are just being overly dramatic and highly distorting everything. In the process, you destroy all of your credibility as you are indirectly linking education to terorism which is completely and utterly ludicrous.

Shame on you for you, of all people, should know the value of education and that education is the answer to ignorance.

In addition, nudity in the UK is much more popular and widespread that you will ever admit to as the following link will demonstrate:

http://www.clothesfreeforum.com/showthread.php?t=11152

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

If children were also taught at an early age to respect their bodies, accept their bodies, take care of their bodies, stop being ashamed of their bodies, as well as being educated and informed as to how the nude human form is highly manipulated by marketing and advertising people for the sole purpose of making money, then children might grow up to reject all of the lies and distorted nonsense surrounding nudism.

Whose kids are we talking about? Your kids or my kids? I won't try to turn your kids against nudism or nudist values and I resent you thinking you have the right to "educate" my kids with yours. Do you think you have got the right to go to the Muslim's house and educate his kids about the truth of Christianity?

You are smart enough to know that education is not 'dictating' anything to anyone and that the education of society about nudism has absolutely nothing to do with guns, bombs, imprisonment, terrorists, Al Quida, etc.

What you call "education", I call nudist propaganda and I don't believe you have any more right to impose it on an unwilling audience than a Muslim has to walk into a church and demand the parishioners listen to his condemnation of Christianity.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines



Whose kids are we talking about? Your kids or my kids? I won't try to turn your kids against nudism or nudist values and I resent you thinking you have the right to "educate" my kids with yours. Do you think you have got the right to go to the Muslim's house and educate his kids about the truth of Christianity?

Lol.....Stu, you are too funny.......whirrrrrrr.......whirrrr........

All kids should be better educated to learn how to take care of themselves and their bodies. There is absolutely nothing wrong with promoting good health. Self acceptance of one's own body is extremely important. The alternative is to have children growing up will all sorts of pshychological traumas that lead to self abusive tendancies such as bulemia, anerexia, endless dieting, drug abuse, etc. You obviously are so paranoid about nudity that you would sacrifice the health and well being of children just to protect yourself. This is selfish and so shameful!


What you call "education", I call nudist propaganda and I don't believe you have any more right to impose it on an unwilling audience than a Muslim has to walk into a church and demand the parishioners listen to his condemnation of Christianity.


You know exactly what I am talking about when I discuss education and yet you try to twist education into some dire process of brainwashing and propoganda. Double shame on you , for you who has worked at universities, do know better but you chose to be openly deceptive about education in order to take advantage of the less informed. You are trying to brainwash us all here with your propoganda (and you are doing a fairly poor job of doing it too!).

Whirrr.......whirrr.........whirrr..........and the beat goes on..........are we all having a good time yet???

Sorry, Stu, but if you followed my link, you will see that England is going naked now and there is nothing that you can do about it.

[Home Nudist]

.....and Jamie Lee Curtis is rumoured to be a hermaphrodite at birth.

You decide: http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.asp
_