Filing a complaint against a college

[pek1]

Hi everyone!

I haven't been here for awhile, as I'm back in school, finishing my degree (one year left) and then going into law enforcement.

As many of you know, a few years ago, I was expelled from a Christian college for being on this website, as well as posting a nude picture of myself here.

My question is: Even though it was a few years ago (less than five, actually), could I still file a complaint against them with the EEOC or another agency? I've been thinking about this for a long time, but haven't been able to make up my mind about this, as Christian people are sometimes quite decisive against each other.

Thanks!

[Journeyman]

Hi everyone!

I haven't been here for awhile, as I'm back in school, finishing my degree (one year left) and then going to law school.

As many of you know, a few years ago, I was expelled from a Christian college for being on this website, as well as posting a nude picture of myself here.

My question is: Even though it was a few years ago (less than five, actually), could I still file a complaint against them with the EEOC or another agency? I've been thinking about this for a long time, but haven't been able to make up my mind about this, as Christian people are sometimes quite decisive against each other.

Thanks!

Pete -- How long have you been thinking about it? A year or more? Does the expulsion still anger you?

What would be your motivation for complaining or suing the college? Are you looking to make an early name for yourself as a lawyer?

What eventual good would all this accomplish?

I ask these questions with complete respect, as only you can answer them in your heart.

(Personally, I'd write a letter to the president of the college, expressing your continued disapppointment in the action...but this could be your vindication by at least educating him or her about naturism not being at odds with Christianity.)

[Agde]

There are probably three main kinds of lingering torments -- splinters, regrets and loose-ends, We old folks will tell you from experience that the first are best pulled and discarded without another thought, the second packed in a souvenir box and stored in the basement for your biographer, and the third revisited only long enough to see if there is an expediently beneficial way to tidy up and move on.

If the expulsion is a nagging personal wound with little subsequent impact, combining an Office Depot shredder with a few incantations from the Vatican's Revised Rite of Exorcism might do the trick. If it is a life lesson in the dangers of living within a bailiwick of the forces of bigotry and small-mindedness, perhaps throwing a party or doing something else especially pleasant on the expulsion anniversary this year could mark the end of an era and celebrate your victorious liberation. If it is a matter of revising the expulsion or erasing the word "expulsion" from your record, a quick investigation of rules and alternate labels might suggest what kind of revision is procedurally possible or what kind of letter could usefully be on file without too much time and effort.

As much as I love a good legal fight, filing a complaint with the EEOC or others after such a long time sounds like more torture than solution.

PS. I know of at least one case of a now highly respected Christian clergyman (and current naturist) who in his youth was expelled from a midwest college for skinny-dipping, so ultimately you are in quite illustrious company. :)

[Jason Lee]

pek1

how did college find out ?

[NudeTopher]

...
My question is: Even though it was a few years ago (less than five, actually), could I still file a complaint against them with the EEOC or another agency? I've been thinking about this for a long time, but haven't been able to make up my mind about this, as Christian people are sometimes quite decisive against each other.

Thanks!

It's amazing that you wish to enter law school, but don't know where to go for good legal advice. I would certainly urge you to (1) check the rules/regulations of your old college to make certain that there wasn't a stated rule that you broke by being nude online. Private schools that don't accept public money can make-up their own rules. Since it's highly doubtful that there was a specific rule that you broke the it's time to visit a lawyer. (2) If you can't afford a private attorney then I'd suggest contacting your local office of an organization that specializes in First Amendment rights such as the ACLU.

[nudeM]

If you're serious, I would first check with the schools policy as to what is and what isn't permitted on their computers (if it was the schools computer you used). Read the policy VERY CLOSLEY. Read the small print as well for 'hidden messages". If you don't see anything relating to 'nudity' or any subject relating to the sort, then ask to speak to the administrator (Dean). You may also find out what the Statute of Limitation is. Even though you may have a case, legally, if the Statute of Limitation has expired, it may not be worth the hassle.

Lots of luck and let us know how things work out.:smoking:

[nakeduni]

I think you can get around the Statute of Limitation if you just concluded you were discriminated against. The time starts from that date, but you need to check it out before wasting more time.

[Eric6420]

Personnally, I think it will be useless to take a legal action against your old school. The bottom line is that if they are conservatives christians and if they put you out of the school, it is because they see nudity as a form of depravation and there is nothing you can do against it.

The basic problem of christianity is that the very existance of Jesus as a man is not proven. I know that his name is in the dictionaries and that our calendar is based on his supposed birthday, but recent research shows that there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. You can watch the dvd "The god that wasn't there" among other things.

To return to the question of nudity, there is no doubt that most Christians, and particularly conservatives ones had almost always opposed public nudity.

[Naturist Mark]

Big institutions can sue for anything, the little guy has a tougher road. How badly were you harmed by the expulsion? Without belittling the hardship, injustice and aggravation caused by their action, it does you appear you emerged right side up - for which we are all grateful.

In order to determine whether you should proceed you need to examine what you hope to achieve. Chances are there is little monetary gain to be expected if you win, but win or lose your pursuing the case could make things better for other people - by either making the school more cautious in punishing or persecuting immorality that isn't immoral, or by warning away potential victims of their intolerance, and exposing their un-Christian behavior.

Frankly, filing a lawsuit is a very public act. If you are willing to do that, you might consider going public in other ways - by protesting, picketing, writing letters to the editor, talking to reporters, all to expose a policy of intolerance.

As for an EEOC filing - I'm not sure if that applies for a student in your circumstances, but there are anti-discrimination laws that apply to educational institutions. In general religious institutions are free to be discriminatory, almost all anti-discrimination laws exempt them - unless they receive public funding. There are some religious schools that refuse all public money for this reason - like Bob Jones University and Hillsdale College - so they are free to discriminate as much as their impaired consciences allow. I don't know of any cases where naturists are considered a protected class. Without knowing more about your circumstances my best guess is that your only grounds of complaint would be invasion of privacy and perhaps the failure to follow a policy that allowed you to properly appeal the action, and the harm caused by it - for example the harm to your reputation or the impairment of your ability to follow a Christian vocation even though it is not incompatible with naturism.

You'll need to check with a local lawyer on the question of the statute of limitations, but the time limit for civil actions is usually pretty short - it isn't going to be 7 years.

I'm skeptical of your chances to establish grounds for a suit and prevail in court, but a good lawyer can always find something. Do not substitute any of our opinions for the advice of a good lawyer familiar with these issues and that locality. Find the best attorney you can and talk with them - the initial consultation is almost always free.

I suspect a lawsuit or legal complaint could do some good, even if unlikely to result in any personal gain for you. You need to decide if the costs are worth the intangible gains, and if there might be better or less costly means of pursuing them.

-Mark

[walter05]

This is a potentially serious problem. A future employer will want to see transcripts and the expulsion will show up.

If you explain that you were looking at nude pictures on line, your chance of getting hired is very remote. A prospective employer will believe that you are either a pervert or stupid to do this at work. Either way, the employer will not want to take a risk hiring you.

The college may have had a legal duty to do something when they found that you had violated their Internet usage policies.

However, there are ways to negotiate this. They may agree to change the official reason for your leaving the school from expelled to your leaving on your own.

I have sent you a PM with my e-mail address. I have helped students negotiate with schools over other disciplinary issues. If you send me an e-mail, I will tell you the types of information that I need to help you prepare.

I.e. I want a copy of the student handbook from that year. I want copies of any documents that you signed, etc.

If handled correctly, your record can be corrected. Under the circumstances, this is so important for you that this should be the priority. Getting even may seem important and making a point may seem important.

However, I believe that you have worked hard to build a good record since. Now you need to make sure that this incident does not follow you and cause trouble for the rest of your life.

Walter

[Eric6420]

Hi Pete!

The advise from Walter is full of good intentions, but it would mean lying about the reason they put you out of the college. You basically was banned from your college because you are a nudist and to lie about it would not improve your case.

There is nothing wrong about being a nudist, but to lie about it is not a good idea. Of course, if you live in a place that does not accept nudists, you have the choice between going in a more open place or to follow the advise from Walter. But if you follow the advise from Walter, be prepared to live a life full of lies and hypocrisy.

[walter05]

Your advice is incorrect.

He attended a Christian College. This means that it was a private entity. As a private entity, it had the right to set any rules it wanted.

This private entity told a customer to leave because he was not following their rules.

I am Jewish. If they require me to accept Christianity to attend, I would refuse to attend.

The correct thing, if nudism was important at the time, would have been to ask these questions prior to enrolling.

Now that he has enrolled and been expelled, his chance of winning any lawsuit against a private entity is remote.

However, the chance that he could have a mark on his record following him around and making it hard to get a job is not.

I said nothing about denouncing the nudism. However, if he can get the college to revoke the expulsion, this could make a huge difference in attempting to get a job.

There is an old Georgia saying. It is easy to be generous with someone else's money.

Pek needs to make sure that he has a positive future. If you are offering him a large sum of money to take care of his needs in the future, that is your right. Otherwise, don't spend his money and future.

I hope he grasps how important it is to clean his record. I hope he will e-mail me. If not, I hope he will go to someone he knows and trusts and get this taken care of.

[usuallylurk]

I wouldn't worry too much about it... if you gain entry into law school, it shouldn't hurt your chances of getting a job.

I, myself, graduated from high school at age 16 and went off to a large university just after my 17th birthday. I couldn't handle it. I flunked out.

I also had attended two high schools over four years.

I went to a community college for two years, made honors. Applied to a bunch of local universities, got into all of them except one (Harvard -- where I made the wait list as a junior college transfer but didn't make the cut).

Went on to a four year and graduated five years after finishing high school.

If you get that degree, it may bite you on a law school admission where transcripts are required. However....

I used to include my one year at "Enormous State" on my resume. As my experience moved on, I restricted my list to schools I graduated from, and received degrees from, to keep ithe resume short.

In 35 years time, I have been asked for proof of graduation, and transcripts from schools I graduated from, but no one has ever asked for details as to why I attended a school for a year and left. They seemed to be more concerned about the education I received from the degrees I completed.

So if you just said =

"Attended Bigtime Christian College, 2001-2002" for example, you'll probably be OK.

If they ask details, tell the truth. Tell them you violated a rule or two, and it was felt you'd be better off at a secular college. Tell them it was a good thing for you. Don't get into details unless they ask for them.

They probably won't.

[Eric6420]

I am not telling Pete to have a lawsuit, I said the contrary. However, remember that Bill Clinton was almost impeached not because he had an affair with Monika Lewinski, but because he LIED about it.

Walter, what you propose to Pete is cowardice. What I propose him is honesty. If you have to lie about such a small thing as nudism, what you will do when things that are really embarrassing arrive?

To be removed from a college because of being a nudist could be in fact be a badge of honor! There are many causes that involve civil liberties and the fact that he had to live that stupid decision from his college could add to his credibility as a lawyer.

[Croydon]

This is a potentially serious problem. A future employer will want to see transcripts and the expulsion will show up.

If you explain that you were looking at nude pictures on line, your chance of getting hired is very remote. A prospective employer will believe that you are either a pervert or stupid to do this at work. Either way, the employer will not want to take a risk hiring you.

Walter
Just to clarify, an employer CAN NOT ask an applicant to provide college transcript. All an employer can ask is what school(s) the applicant attended and when, did he/she graduate, if so, what kind of degree and subject. Employers can not ask for copy of a transcript. The employer can call the university to verify the information and the only information the university can provide is whether the person attended the school, the dates, and degree; that is it. Information about disciplinary actions or expulsion can not be shared.

Similarly to being fired from job. The employer that fires you can not reveal to other employers that you were fired. All they can do is verify the dates to which you were employed.

[NakedGary]

pek1

Filing a complaint is one thing, a law suit is another.

A couple of old timers remember you well, even soliciting on CFF forums for lawyers to start a lawsuit against "INA International Naturist Association" for not having closed caption or text on their video editions of Nudes in the news.

You have been on a suing bandwagon for many years [Since 2004 that I remember] in reference to ADA, and the impaired prior to you getting booted from a Christian college.

Your previous posts on these forums, and permanent Internet archives document your pattern of complaints and thinking of suing others.

I think the others here have given you excellent advise in standing up for your nudist rights.

It doesn't sound as if you have much of a case if you used the computers at this "Christian college" or your work place to access nudists sites or post nude pictures, and I don't think a college or employer would have expelled you unless you directly violated their policies, rules, or regulations.

How is your service dog "Snickers" doing?

[Croydon]

I think Pek1 doesn't have a case or much to file a complaint about.

Considering you attended a conservative christian college, I am sure they have a student handbook (like many schools). In the hand book, there must be a code of ethics and within that code are rules. I am sure somewhere it talks about internet use, visiting certain sites and your behavior on the internet and any sites.

That being said, you violated those rules and it is at the discretion of the university as to how they wish to discipline you or any student

[walter05]

Croydon;

I do hiring. When attempting to qualify an employee, the company I work for requires that applicants disclose any issues with the police, credit issues, etc.

We then have the applicant consent to a police background check. (I have only found information not disclosed one time. I was more disturbed by being lied to than what I found.)

We ask the applicant to order a credit report. This is to lessen the risks to our customers.

We also insist on a witnessed drug test. I have found that this test often works for free when applicants refuse to be tested. I have only had one drug test find anything and it was a faint trace of marijuana. However, the applicant was a student just back from spring break in Florida. I considered it possible that the marijuana was from secondary smoke.

A couple of weeks later, we were ready to hire the applicant. I had him provide another urine sample and he was clean. Over the past year, he has provided four other unannounced urine samples and been clean.
He has proven to be a great employee and I am glad that we hired him. However, I had to have a record to show that we took precautions for our customers. In his case, it has been a bargain.

We require the disclosure of all schools attended starting with high school. We then require the applicant to order certified transcripts be sent to us.

I don’t just do that looking for trouble. I have found that a GPA alone is not helpful. Some applicants have a few very bad grades, particularly as freshmen. I am able to record the information in an Excel spreadsheet and do analysis. It often helps good applicants who had a rough start look better.

I have found that applicants that started rough and recovered make great employees. They have learned how to solve problems. They have an ability to face the challenges of a customer site. They are also very loyal and appreciate our having hired them. Looking at the transcripts helps me make that decision.

Employers don’t offer jobs for charity. Employers invest in employees. It is expensive to fire employees. I have fired employees and I hated doing it. I don’t want to have to fire anyone again. Taking time to qualify employees saves my employer money and lessens the likelihood that I will need to fire someone. In the course of doing so, we find out things about applicants they may have forgotten themselves. In the age of online databases, I would assume that anything would be found out.

Usually Lurk;

You started your career before the age of the Internet and online databases. It is much harder to get started with a blemish on the record than it used to be. Now that you are established professionally, the older events are overlooked.

P.S. Note what I posted above about how your experience would be considered a plus to me. Others may agree. However, academic troubles are not the same as disciplinary troubles. I would hesitate if I saw an expulsion.

Eric;

You miss something. I have never said that he should renounce anything. However, this Christian College is a private college. They have the right to set whatever rules they want as a private institution.

If I want to visit a nudist resort that is not CO and keep clothed, I will be expelled. The people who operate this private entity require their customers be nude. I have no right to tell a private entity what they must or must not do.

Pek will lose any legal fight and Gary and Croydon can both see that. Carrying on a losing fight might seem worthwhile. However, if at the end of it, Pek is virtually unemployable, and has lost, he will have accomplished nothing other than losing an opportunity to help build his future.

Pek;

If you want to get the expulsion off of your record, e-mail me or contact someone you trust.

[Eric6420]

Walter:

I never said to Pek (Pete) to sue the college, I think that it is a waste of time. It is true that they have the right to set their own standards (up to a point, because their own rules must not interfere with state and federal laws). However, even if the college had the right to expulse Pete, the reason for doing so is quite objectable if not ridiculous. You can almost compared it to a gay man that was fired from the US military and that kind of things. Not so long ago, many states in the USA had racial segregation laws.

Pete will not be unemployable because he was expelled for such a reason. Any gay man or woman could have lived the same thing. You say he wasn't forced to go to a christian college. We do not really know. Maybe his parents are christians fundamentalists and are just willing to pay for a christian college. And by the way, not all christians are anti-gay or anti-nudist or anti-sex...

So the best thing to do is nothing. If an employer ask him why he was expulsed, he has just to tell the truth and a normal employer will find that hilarious!

[MichaelJB]

Its discrimination, so you should take some legal action against them to get your record set straight and so they realize they cant do this to future students because they wont tolerate it. Religions organizations areint above the law and they need to realize that.

[Naturist Mark]

It IS discrimination, but it isn't illegal discrimination. Nudists are not a protected class under any anti-discrimination laws, whether such laws apply to that particular college or not.

He might have a civil case if they violated their stated disciplinary rules and appeals procedures in the expulsion. But we have already discussed many reasons why it is doubtful that a lawsuit would have any positive outcome except to embarrass the college - and even that is debatable - they might take the position that persecuting naturism is admirable.

If embarrassing the school for the unchristian act of persecuting naturism without even bothering to understand it is the goal, a lawsuit is probably not the best means. But it might be a way to get media attention. Still I think I'd try to do that outside of court.

If the goal is simply to improve life prospects for pek1, then Walter's approach makes the most sense. It would cost the school nothing to expunge the expulsion from his record, and might actually put them on guard against such kneejerk reactionaryism in the future (a very faint hope).

-Mark

[MichaelJB]

I simply think colleges like that should block nudists sites they dont want their students to see to prevent them from even commiting a violation of the rules in the first place on their internet. Also I think expulsion was a bit extreme, they could have just let him off with a warning or suspended him, expulsion should always be a last resort and only for the most extreme violations.

[MichaelJB]

It IS discrimination, but it isn't illegal discrimination. Nudists are not a protected class under any anti-discrimination laws, whether such laws apply to that particular college or not.


I think we should work harder to make ourselves a protected class so that these sort of discriminatory acts wont happen. That way we would have a case.

[walter05]

We both agree that Pek should not sue.
<O:p</O:p
First if Pek can clean his record, it is worth it. I am offering free assistance.
<O:p</O:p

It does not matter whether or not you think the college’s policies are reasonable or not unless you are considering enrolling in the college or being employed there.
<O:p
Walter
<O:p</O:p

[MichaelJB]

It does not matter whether or not you think the college’s policies are reasonable or not unless you are considering enrolling in the college or being employed there.


Actually it does for three reasons....

One, its a nudist issue.
Two, the expulsion was because of what happened when he logged on this site.
Three, The issue was brought up here and we are discussing it so it is our concern.

Besides this isnt just a matter of opinion, he has rights and this school obviously violated them.

[NakedGary]

By MichaelJB:Besides this isnt just a matter of opinion, he has rights and this school obviously violated them.

MichaelJB, you got it backwards

Pek1 obviously violated the Christian college policy, rules, or standards, and he was expelled.

Do you think colleges go around and violate peoples rights, and expel for no reasons?

[pek1]

Pete -- How long have you been thinking about it? A year or more? Does the expulsion still anger you?

What would be your motivation for complaining or suing the college? Are you looking to make an early name for yourself as a lawyer?

What eventual good would all this accomplish?

I ask these questions with complete respect, as only you can answer them in your heart.

(Personally, I'd write a letter to the president of the college, expressing your continued disapppointment in the action...but this could be your vindication by at least educating him or her about naturism not being at odds with Christianity.)

Journeyman,

I remember you quite well when I was here regularly and have high respect for you. As for the early name, gee, I hope not. The good . . . I don't know. I don't know if it would do any good or accomplish anything. It's not about money, but reputation. I see nothing wrong with being nude, just didn't appreciate the insinuation of being a pedo due to answering a young lady's question about her avatar, I believe, was NudistKim. I don't know if she's still on here or not, but she just wanted opinions on her avatar and it was fine. I and the other people told her that.

[pek1]

It's amazing that you wish to enter law school, but don't know where to go for good legal advice. I would certainly urge you to (1) check the rules/regulations of your old college to make certain that there wasn't a stated rule that you broke by being nude online. Private schools that don't accept public money can make-up their own rules. Since it's highly doubtful that there was a specific rule that you broke the it's time to visit a lawyer. (2) If you can't afford a private attorney then I'd suggest contacting your local office of an organization that specializes in First Amendment rights such as the ACLU.

Agde & NudeTopher,

It's not a matter of not knowing the law or advice, just been reluctant to do anything and it has just been bugging me since.

Kicked out for skinnydipping? Any idea what school?

[pek1]

Personnally, I think it will be useless to take a legal action against your old school. The bottom line is that if they are conservatives christians and if they put you out of the school, it is because they see nudity as a form of depravation and there is nothing you can do against it.

The basic problem of christianity is that the very existance of Jesus as a man is not proven. I know that his name is in the dictionaries and that our calendar is based on his supposed birthday, but recent research shows that there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. You can watch the dvd "The god that wasn't there" among other things.

To return to the question of nudity, there is no doubt that most Christians, and particularly conservatives ones had almost always opposed public nudity.

Yeah, it's as if either they're ashamed of their "equipment" or they don't want anyone to know what sex they are. Whatever. rolls eyes

[pek1]

This is a potentially serious problem. A future employer will want to see transcripts and the expulsion will show up.

If you explain that you were looking at nude pictures on line, your chance of getting hired is very remote. A prospective employer will believe that you are either a pervert or stupid to do this at work. Either way, the employer will not want to take a risk hiring you.

The college may have had a legal duty to do something when they found that you had violated their Internet usage policies.

However, there are ways to negotiate this. They may agree to change the official reason for your leaving the school from expelled to your leaving on your own.

I have sent you a PM with my e-mail address. I have helped students negotiate with schools over other disciplinary issues. If you send me an e-mail, I will tell you the types of information that I need to help you prepare.

I.e. I want a copy of the student handbook from that year. I want copies of any documents that you signed, etc.

If handled correctly, your record can be corrected. Under the circumstances, this is so important for you that this should be the priority. Getting even may seem important and making a point may seem important.

However, I believe that you have worked hard to build a good record since. Now you need to make sure that this incident does not follow you and cause trouble for the rest of your life.

Walter


Walter,

I'd have to request that information and then send it to you. I received the pm's, sorry for not being faithful in being here. You brought up issues that I hadn't quite realized and am not sure if it shows up on my transcript, which I think it may not, but the potential employer or law school may make an inquiry and find out.

Thanks for assisting me. If we can't meet, let me know your fax number/address and we'll go from there.

[pek1]

pek1

Filing a complaint is one thing, a law suit is another.

A couple of old timers remember you well, even soliciting on CFF forums for lawyers to start a lawsuit against "INA International Naturist Association" for not having closed caption or text on their video editions of Nudes in the news.

You have been on a suing bandwagon for many years [Since 2004 that I remember] in reference to ADA, and the impaired prior to you getting booted from a Christian college.

Your previous posts on these forums, and permanent Internet archives document your pattern of complaints and thinking of suing others.

I think the others here have given you excellent advise in standing up for your nudist rights.

It doesn't sound as if you have much of a case if you used the computers at this "Christian college" or your work place to access nudists sites or post nude pictures, and I don't think a college or employer would have expelled you unless you directly violated their policies, rules, or regulations.

How is your service dog "Snickers" doing?

Snickers is doing very well, thanks for asking! She's eight years old now and still active as my hearing dog.

As for the "suing bandwagon," I honestly don't recall doing that, but that is archived and don't doubt it. Time has helped me mature and not get so jumpy on everything. You wouldn't believe how little is captioned on videos online, so, unless I know the gist of a story or can figure it out by watching, I don't squawk much anymore.

The advice is wonderful and will have to have some corrections made. It's not the money, as it's not there and I know it. It is a matter of principle of an insinuation that needs to be corrected. The computers at the said college weren't used, just the ones where I'm at now in Moorhead, MN. Yes, it is very cold up here.

[pek1]

Okay, sorry I answered some and others I didn't, please don't take it personally. I read all responses.

Walter and I will be in touch and I will be getting that information for him and requesting it this week.

Walter, please don't be offended if I call you back on Relay, as I sometimes have trouble hearing on the phone. I have classes everyday, but M,W & F I'm back home by 9:30 am; T and Th at 12:30p.m.

Thanks again, Walter, for helping me!

[SpiderThug]

Hi everyone!

I haven't been here for awhile, as I'm back in school, finishing my degree (one year left) and then going to law school.

As many of you know, a few years ago, I was expelled from a Christian college for being on this website, as well as posting a nude picture of myself here.

My question is: Even though it was a few years ago (less than five, actually), could I still file a complaint against them with the EEOC or another agency? I've been thinking about this for a long time, but haven't been able to make up my mind about this, as Christian people are sometimes quite decisive against each other.

Thanks!

Catholic schools in Australia have been including in the parental agreement with enrolling their children that the school has the right to stop their students from having membership to any website they deem as unfit. It's all part of the Catholic culture of the church dictating absolutely to their congregation instead of paying them respect.

I spent 11 years in Catholic schooling and the one thing I learnt from an early age is that this church has no moral right to dictate who to live one's life morally for this church is extremely amoral.

[pek1]

SpiderThug,

I don't doubt that a bit! Funny thing, though . . . there have been some priests here that either commit suicide when they're "found out" or they murder them. If not those two things, then the priest is reassigned to another parish.

Kinda sad, I think.