Nature(ism)

[spiceant]

I have been studying many diverse subjects and at the risk of peaking your curiousity will shortcircuit the length of this thread. For this thread i recognize two primary viewpoints. One is that humanity has progressed and is ever evolving and has at some previous point progressed beyond nature (generally supported by what good we create). The other is the polar opposite, that humanity has regressed from nature (generally supported by what evil we create). I want to know your thoughts about this.

[OZJames]

I find it hard to understand this poll but my take on it is that I believe the human race are ultimately incapable of controlling nature. Nature will outwit us because of human greed. As we destroy natural resources it will become more difficult to maintain life in "the manner we have become accustomed to" so we will start fighting for oil (already started in Iraq), water, land space as oceans rise etc. There will always be the greedy power hungry people :sneaky: prepared to kill everyone else so as to try and maintain their own lifestyle. As a result natural resources will continue to diminish to a point where the world as we know i will become a place where only a very small number of people will survive.

[Bob S.]

Humans are a part of nature. We will never be able to rise above it as it will always be our over-controlling environment. We may be able to control certain aspects of nature/reality but there will always be other aspects that are out of our control. And those will be considered our natural environment or reality.

Bob S.

[usmc1]

I voted with the majority on this one. When one looks at nature/reality in the context of all of history, as we know it, and the whole of the universe, as we know it, it is obvious that we have very little grasp or understanding of nature/reality.

Sure, we recognize some forces and laws at work, but, the truth is that while we see their effect, we hardly understand them. Many elements of the physical world, and sub-particle world existed beyond our awarenss or knowledge until a few nanoseconds ago on the scale of human history. What else is there, that we have not yet discovered?

String theory predicts other realties and dimensions beyond our current comprehension.

[usmc1]

I have been studying many diverse subjects and at the risk of peaking your curiousity will shortcircuit the length of this thread. For this thread i recognize two primary viewpoints. One is that humanity has progressed and is ever evolving and has at some previous point progressed beyond nature (generally supported by what good we create). The other is the polar opposite, that humanity has regressed from nature (generally supported by what evil we create). I want to know your thoughts about this.

There are several ways of looking at this poll and its questions. It is essentially philosophical in "nature" but is not drawn up in philosophical language making it difficult.

I chose a different view than did you. It is below.

But, to your question. I do believe that humans are becoming increasingly divorced from and uncomfortable with nature. And, the more detached they become, the more disrespectful and destructive they become.

I would not go so far to suggest that "nature" is sentient, but, it does have a way of responding to threats. The earth survives, but the organisms on it change.

[MoonShadow]

I do believe that humans are becoming increasingly divorced from and uncomfortable with nature. And, the more detached they become, the more disrespectful and destructive they become.



I agree with you!!! It is more and more obvious that humanity is divorcing themselves from nature. All we have to do is look around us at all the clear cutting of beautiful forests, deforestation, polluted affluents still being emitted into waterways, and let's not even begin to think about what is really getting dumped into our oceans. More and more of humanity moves into suburbia, shielded by walls, personal comforts; many don't even know their neighbors anymore; many don't even enjoy their own backyards; and, heaven forbid if there is a squirrel in their yard!!!

As more and more shield themselves from nature and wildlife the more "disrepectful and destructive" they are!

[chuckincville]

It's pretty arrogant of us to believe we should govern nature.
there are exhisting laws & balance in nature that we ignore at our own risk!
What we need to govern are our own actions & reality. We've made enormous advances in "managing nature" eg. crop and food production. But there are still starving people. And the push to increase meat and milk production with feed lots and harmone injections is causing all kinds of health problems for us.
Scientist split the atom - a potential energy source. What did we do with it? - obliterate thousands and provide a means for our own self destruction. Insanity!

Because of self interest and greed we ignore the negative impact we have on nature and that is bringing about a reality that will have to be delt with!

[spiceant]

Misguided people with guided rockets?

I considder civilization an abomination and most of its aspects destructive. Basicly based on a false premise, the idea that we are imperfect (the originel sin) and can improve on what we had originally (darwinism). I considder everything perfect and thus there is nothing to add what we already are (and so there is nothing to worry about, only intenfull actions to take.) This is logical to assume if you believe everything was created by a perfect God because that means his creations are also perfect.
I see civilization as a war on the human soul which really got going with the popes 2000 years ago. The popes introduced to the world to the manifesto of the of our modern world, the staff of death (baked bread) and the virtues of faith (ignorance), obedience (apathy), modesty (hypocracy), decency ((self)censoring) propegation of truth (with lies), love preaching (crusades, threats, torture) and education (crusader style brain washing and book burning), eradication of savages/terrorists (natives), tradition (self deception) and the hidden tyrants that proliferate on the former.

The dark ages never ended as the tyrants (popes, monarchs (most/all american presidents are of royal descent; a banking monopoly via the imf and central banks) are still in power, in the least in europe as the monarchs appoint. I dont suppose this only on that view, but also because society still operates on the founding principle of civilization which is fear. Fear is immediactly expressed (as anger) when tradition is threatened. Fear by itself is a usefull tool to liars, because it paralyzes intellectually and it is this tool most of civilization still uses to achieve things even by individuals against themselves. Another example of this dark age i suggest is modern education, which ONLY tells the children WHAT to think, not HOW. It still tells them every so 'fact' without telling them how they got to discover those facts which leads to a lot of knowledge of an empty (not verified) premise.

[Centauri4]

On controlling the environment:
We have certainly mastered this in limited examples by creating refrigerated environments within office buildings and domed sports stadiums; I've even seen a indoor skiing slope in Japan! But these are limited scenarios of control requiring the displacement of natural elements (heat, humidity, etc.).

On manipulating nature:
Yep, we have done this also. Only the twist is that we are using nature's tools (viruses) to manipulate nature's other tools (ourselves). Every time we intentionally give a "live" or inert virus to someone that does not already have it we are essentially forcing the body's immune system to deal with it; this is manipulation of the circumstances by intervention.

On "destruction" as a system of progress:
Humankind has adapted this naturally occurring event (or "system") by observing its occurrence in nature and learning from that example. In the same way a forest fire is triggered by naturally occurring lightning, burns thousands of acres of "old growth" forest and makes room for a new generation of trees, plants and animals, so we do in our cities, on farmlands and through warfare.

Unfortunately this last example is painful and least easy for us to understand most of the time, but that does not make it any less "real" a process or diminish the significance of it in our closed (finite) environment.

Consider the incredible examples:
Towing an iceberg a thousand miles to deliver frozen fresh water where it was needed (this really happened didn't it?). Building the Boulder/Hoover Dam and completely altering or at least controlling the flow of fresh water to millions of acres of land and thousands of people formerly downstream. Creating the "Breadbasket of America" and converting hundreds of thousands of acres of land into productive farms through terra-forming (landscaping/leveling), fertilization and irrigation; totally amazing and not easily recognized for what it represents.

There must be more examples but this is all I am good for today. Bless you all and good luck.

[usmc1]

Yeah, but....

HVAC systems break down and have to be replaced and currently depend on the exploitation and use of diminishing supplies of fossil fuels. In the end nature will win and restore its self.

Viruses mutate. Sometimes in freakish ways, sometimes in hideously scary ways. If the filo viruses (Marburg, Ebolo, etc.) ever go airborne, it's gonna get nasty! In the end nature will win and restore its self.

Destruction is destruction. Humans' preemption of, and, interference with, the natural order of death and regeneration very well could unbalance things to a tipping point where when nature wins and restores its self, humans and many other animal and plant forms are no longer a part of nature.

Soils depleted by overgrazing and decades on top of decades of industrial farming reliant on chemical fertilizers will at some point exact a toll. Except for a few preserves and restoration attempts in the mid-west, our natural tall grass prairies are all gone---this is important, because it is the cycle of the tall grass's death and rebirth that helps prevents wind erosion. In the end, nature will win and restore its self.

Hoover dam will not last forever. Nature will win and restore its self!

Whether humans will witness this is very arguable!

Some humans are a pernicious blight on the earth. Their attempts to manage, control, manipulate that which is beyond control, management or manipulation is putting all of us at risk! Simply citing that this is how humans have always behaved, while true of some of us, is hardly sufficient. We must change our behaviors and attitudes, or have them changed by events.

[nacktman]

Humans are not anywhere near to understanding Nature and even further away from controlling it no matter what we may like to believe about it.