Education

[Bob S.]

Topher asked this of my comments in page 33 of the Bush Bashing topic.

"In your opinion, what is wrong with a standardized test."

The tests remove the ability of the teacher to more creatively teach her students. There has been a lot of talk regarding "teaching to the test" that teachers must do. That is counter to the styles of learning that must go on ina school room in order for true learning to occur.

There are Three Levels of Comprehension (http://academic.cuesta.edu/acasupp/AS/303.HTM) that exist. The standardized tests only examine the first level, the least sophisticated level. That deals with the "Lieral" characterized by "Facts and details" and "Rote learning and memorization". And that is how the techers must teach in order to attain the best results for their classes. Teaching students how to take a test is not teaching the more important aspect of learning, how to think.

Another aspect of the tests is that they are usually taken way too early in the school year. Here in VA, the tests are usually at the end of May whereas school is in sesion until the middle of June. That leaves about least 2 weeks of school time wasted. In fact, parents and teachers have complained about the lack of anything to do with that time. Instead of 181 instructional days of school, we now have less than 170.

"It creates a baseline and allows for direct comparrison. The use of differing tests, school district by school district, will only make the results incomperable. When you conduct a poll you certainly don't ask different questions to different people."

The point of testing children is to measure how well they are doing. Or at least that is how it should be. I don't see that much need to compare different schools with each other. There has been a concept of one year's improvement in one year's time. That should be the standard for all students.

We don't need standardized tests to know which schools are doing poorly. Threatening schools with revocatiomn of their accreditation is extreme, in my view. What should happen is that those schools that are known to be behind should be the ones that are helped the most within a school district.

The other solution is to give students a chance to go to a better school. But that would require them having their own transportation, impossible in a poor school district, which is where most of the at risk schools are. It would also overcrowd the good schools, causing more of a headache for them.

Now as for the tests, my suggestion was for the teachers/school board to create their own tests, but have them accepted by athe standardization people to assure that they meet the minimum requirements. And having to worry only about one set of tests per year for high schoolers, their final exams, would be a lot easier, especially for those who don't take tests easily.

It can also allow for a more relaxed method of teaching and allow the teachers to teach in their comfort zone.

No Child Left Behind is a laudable program, I just think it is being too much affected by the beurocratic mess that makes everything so simple seem so impossibly hard.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Topher asked this of my comments in page 33 of the Bush Bashing topic.

"In your opinion, what is wrong with a standardized test."

The tests remove the ability of the teacher to more creatively teach her students. There has been a lot of talk regarding "teaching to the test" that teachers must do. That is counter to the styles of learning that must go on ina school room in order for true learning to occur.

There are Three Levels of Comprehension (http://academic.cuesta.edu/acasupp/AS/303.HTM) that exist. The standardized tests only examine the first level, the least sophisticated level. That deals with the "Lieral" characterized by "Facts and details" and "Rote learning and memorization". And that is how the techers must teach in order to attain the best results for their classes. Teaching students how to take a test is not teaching the more important aspect of learning, how to think.

Another aspect of the tests is that they are usually taken way too early in the school year. Here in VA, the tests are usually at the end of May whereas school is in sesion until the middle of June. That leaves about least 2 weeks of school time wasted. In fact, parents and teachers have complained about the lack of anything to do with that time. Instead of 181 instructional days of school, we now have less than 170.

"It creates a baseline and allows for direct comparrison. The use of differing tests, school district by school district, will only make the results incomperable. When you conduct a poll you certainly don't ask different questions to different people."

The point of testing children is to measure how well they are doing. Or at least that is how it should be. I don't see that much need to compare different schools with each other. There has been a concept of one year's improvement in one year's time. That should be the standard for all students.

We don't need standardized tests to know which schools are doing poorly. Threatening schools with revocatiomn of their accreditation is extreme, in my view. What should happen is that those schools that are known to be behind should be the ones that are helped the most within a school district.

The other solution is to give students a chance to go to a better school. But that would require them having their own transportation, impossible in a poor school district, which is where most of the at risk schools are. It would also overcrowd the good schools, causing more of a headache for them.

Now as for the tests, my suggestion was for the teachers/school board to create their own tests, but have them accepted by athe standardization people to assure that they meet the minimum requirements. And having to worry only about one set of tests per year for high schoolers, their final exams, would be a lot easier, especially for those who don't take tests easily.

It can also allow for a more relaxed method of teaching and allow the teachers to teach in their comfort zone.

No Child Left Behind is a laudable program, I just think it is being too much affected by the beurocratic mess that makes everything so simple seem so impossibly hard.

Bob S.

[Boreas]

I have a comment about standardized testing. I don't know much about the No Child Left Behind program since I am not American.

Ontario brought in standardized testing just before we left the province. Kids got tested in something like grade four, grade eight and in high school. I remember the grade four level, but can't remember the other levels. I just know that they were done at intervals.

On paper such a program looks wonderful. Who doesn't want their child in an excellent learning environment? In practice there were many problems. One big one related to the difference between urban and rural schools. In downtown Toronto, there are schools with many many different ethnic groups and consequently languages. Children at grade four are probably just catching up to the level of English needed to pass the tests. A school in small-town southern Ontario may only have a couple of different groups of children, and likely all speak English in the home. It is not right nor accurate to judge those schools with the same standards.....it doesn't work and does not measure what it is intended.

Sometimes I think politicians are wanting to go back to the kind of world that TV told us was happening in the 1950s....Ozzie and Harriet families, good children etc. I don't think this is right, nor do I believe it is helpful. We must be able to educate children in today's world and with today's challenges. We must find measurement tools that address these complexities.

I could get going on this topic. I have worked with many children who fall outside the "norm". No child is disposable. I have seen where these types of systems seem to make some children disposable since they do take up more time than others. They just aren't cost effective. That is not how children should be treated. Invest wisely in our children and we will have productive adults one day. They are afterall our future leaders!

[Jason Lee]

where i live education is about
Reading
Writing
Arithmetic

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
Topher asked this of my comments in page 33 of the Bush Bashing topic.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">To be honest,since you are one of the larger supporters, or at the minimum least critical,of Bush; I wanted to see what you thought of the poorly named "No Child Left Behind" brainchild of the president.

Being involved in the educational stystem as I am I have lots of opinions and more then a few contradictions in my thoughts.

Yes, I think that in order for us to get an real baseline standardized testing is necessary. The only way for this testing to have any validity is for that testing to include tests are 100% identical. If each and every school district or even if each state has it's own tests then you can't do an analyis of the results. Apples will always be apples and can never be compared to oranges.

The only true way to know what works and what doesn't work is through testing.

I agree that education is about more then just the memorization of dates, facts, and formulas. It is important to teach children to think, reason, and to be creative. Well constructed exams do just this.

You believe that teachers will only teach students how to score well on tests. This is a fallacy. If students are not taught to reason they will do poorly on both quanitative and verbal (i.e. creative writing, comprehension, and other non-math sections) parts of the exam.

Classroom participation, quiz, (regular) tests including mid-terms and finals all contribute to a student's final grade. The standardized test scores will not be the only measure of the student's success or failure. This is where the teacher's creativity in lesson planning, presentation, come into play.

Teachers seem to resent any and all atempts to quantify their effectivenes and this is just wrong. Teaching skills need to be measured, monitored, and improved. Teachers that are unable to teach must be removed from the classroom. I believe that tenure is good insofar as it protects teachers from being removed for their views and beliefs; but if they are ineffective tenure should not protect them from being taken out of the classroom. </span>

Another aspect of the tests is that they are usually taken way too early in the school year. Here in VA, the tests are usually at the end of May whereas school is in sesion until the middle of June. That leaves about least 2 weeks of school time wasted. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">You make it sound like in VA there are no other tests besides the standardized tests. Why would a teacher stop teaching before final exams? I am not saying you are incorrect, but something just doesn't make sense.


[COLOR:BLACK]The point of testing children is to measure how well they are doing. Or at least that is how it should be. I don't see that much need to compare different schools with each other.</span>
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Comparing schools makes perfect sense. If each school takes a (slightly)different approach to education it allows you to learn what works, what doesn't work and adjust accordingly. It also allows you examine the effectiveness of administrators on the educational process</span>

We don't need standardized tests to know which schools are doing poorly. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Actually, you do. It is needed to establish baselines and benchmarks anything else is called conjecture.</span>

Threatening schools with revocatiomn of their accreditation is extreme, in my view. What should happen is that those schools that are known to be behind should be the ones that are helped the most within a school district. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Would you say that a hospital with an abnormally high morbidity and mortality rate retain it's accredidation? I should hope not. There must be a basic level of success needed or you are condoning failure. It may take replacing the teachers, it may take adding more teachers to reduce the class size, it may take adding resources, it may take a change of administration but you need to identify when a school is failing so that you can correct that situation.</span>

The other solution is to give students a chance to go to a better school. But that would require them having their own transportation, impossible in a poor school district, which is where most of the at risk schools are. It would also overcrowd the good schools, causing more of a headache for them.<span class="ev_code_RED">I can only guess that here you are speaking about school vouchers - something I totally disagree with!</span><span class="ev_code_BLUE">The thought of vouchers and allowing students to shop schools is wrong on many levels.The better schools will cherry pick and only accept the better students and those without behavioral or social problems. This will make the original school that much worse. If we are talking about allowing public school tax money to be used to allow students to attend private, religious schools that in my opinion violates the basic tennants of the seperation of church/state. The schools must be improved not discarded.</span>

Now as for the tests, my suggestion was for the teachers/school board to create their own tests, but have them accepted by athe standardization people to assure that they meet the minimum requirements. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Allowing every school, school district, or state to develop it's own standardized tests smacks of "seperate but equal." By definition, if all of the tests are similar, but not the same they are NOT standardized. </span>

And having to worry only about one set of tests per year for high schoolers, their final exams, would be a lot easier, especially for those who don't take tests easily.<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Few, if any of us enjoy taking tests. But if each student's grades and scores can't be compared how will a college or university admissions office work? 100% of the decisions would be subjective. </span>

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
Topher asked this of my comments in page 33 of the Bush Bashing topic.


Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bob, I must be completely honest. In some of my posts I've mentioned that I think that the right has been very successful at co-opting the language; they have been able to make half-baked or just plain wrong concepts sound good by the names that they have given them. "No Child Left Behind" is a good example.

With the possible exception of the Southern States (i.e. Alabama, Mississippi, et.al.) that don't care about public school education based on both their funding of it and their educational results...we can all agree that everyone values education. We can all agree that we want our children to receive the best possible education possible.

George Bush coined this silly term "No Child Left Behind" a term nobody could disagree with. Yet, his proposals are pretty off base and not endorsed by most educational experts. In short, NCLB was a good soundbite and nothing more.

However, when I said in my posts that his program was a failure and that it was really "Every Child Left Behind" I was commenting less on the program...and more on his failure to properly fund that and real educational programs.

[krcNY]

Christopher

You make many good points. We had issues last year and I asked about the "No Child Left Behind Act" and they really did not have anything to help my son.

I was told that they had larger classroom sizes..since the new budgets, they had to let teachers go.

I was told that they need to teach for the Terra Nova's and if the kid needed to learn something specific to get him a mentor or work on it at home.

We eventually had him diagnosed with a disabiltiy and NOW the gov't will step in and make sure he learns what is needed to pass the grade. Big difference this year to last school year.

Our son was failing school last year. When the Terra Nova results came in...he was in 8 and 9 grade levels when he was only a 6th grader. Math is toughest subject (which he failed miserably) he was at a 7.4 grade average on the TN. Go Figure. So basically he is Above Average even though he was failing on his report cards.

What do you think of this? His teachers told me their hands were tied. They could not give him the one on one he needed. But according to the TN, he is a very bright kid.

[NudeTopher]

KRC,

Last year I had some conversations with either you, or your husband (I don't recall which) about your son.

On the good news side: Even though I don't know anything about your particular school district, here in NYS we have some of the best schools, and best school systems in the nation. (Now that I go to school out of state, I really see the difference and benefits of growing up in a state that both values and funds public school education).

I firmly believe that class size is a key to educational success. In my experinece, from the time that I started up until now, I do much better in those classes that have less students. The teachers are able to identify individual areas of concern and address those issues so that we all succeed.

But, even the prosperous districts in New York are suffering from budget crunches. That is a shame but it's a reality. Now that your son has had his disability diagnosed you are in a better position. By law the district must provide an education appropriate to his particular disability (or to the best of my knowlege send him to a school that is more able to address his particular special needs).

You must remain his advocate to make certain that he gets all that he needs and all that he is entitled to under state law. I have no doubt that you and your husband are excellent advocates http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If the time comes where you have to be a thorn in the side of the school board then go for it. It is their responsibility to address these needs. The more they provide the better he will learn. The more he learns the happier he will be now and in later life.

Although our weather in the North East can suck, we live in a great state. On the whole, we value education; we don't mind spending the tax dollars to support education; and your son will have the ability to achieve more then if you lived elsewhere.

Christopher

[krcNY]

But I never got a direct answer as to what the No Child Act does.

WE currently have a 504 Accomodation plan into effect, which I pushed for last year. It really seems to help him. He passed his finals and finally made the honor roll the last semester. He seems to be on the right track this year. Of course I met with all of his teachers the second week of school to make sure they are aware of his learning disabilities. n Which you would not know he has any unless you paid any attention to him

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krcNY:
But I never got a direct answer as to what the No Child Act does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wikipedia: No Child Left Behind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind)

NCLB was based on the the "Texas Miracle", a state program implemented by Ron Paige (now head of the US Dept of Education) under then Governor George Bush. It has since come to light that the "Texas Miracle" was largely fraud, smoke and mirrors:
Scandal in an education ‘miracle’ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3403664/)
The 'Texas Miracle' (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/06/60II/main591676.shtml)

The stated goals of NCLB are laudable. The implementation seems counter-productive in many aspects. It has imposed massive new costs on schools, for which Congress and the Administration have refused to provide adequate funding. Increasingly the law is now referred to as Every Child Left Behind.

-Mark

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krcNY:
But I never got a direct answer as to what the No Child Act does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wikipedia: No Child Left Behind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind)

NCLB was based on the the "Texas Miracle", a state program implemented by Ron Paige (now head of the US Dept of Education) under then Governor George Bush. It has since come to light that the "Texas Miracle" was largely fraud, smoke and mirrors:
Scandal in an education ‘miracle’ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3403664/)
The 'Texas Miracle' (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/06/60II/main591676.shtml)

The stated goals of NCLB are laudable. The implementation seems counter-productive in many aspects. It has imposed massive new costs on schools, for which Congress and the Administration have refused to provide adequate funding. Increasingly the law is now referred to as Every Child Left Behind.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frequently I have said that the right is excellent at co-opting our language. After all, who could be against something that sounds so nice, and so positive, and so family value laden as "No Child Left Behind." The fact that most credible education experts scoffed at the actual proposals and funding was never properly allocated does not diminish the brilliant turn of phrase from the right. After all, now everybody thinks that Bush is pro-education.

I think listening to any of Bush's speeches and hearing him mangle the English language speaks volumes about how he values education.

So, what could be the real reason for NCLB? Might it not just be a bone tossed to his radical right base that will encourage the (and I believe unconstitutional) use of public tax money to pay for private religious schools?

When you emasculate the public schools and fund the conservative Christian schools is this not the real intent?

krcNY,

When my daughters were in high school they got mostly A's and even some A pluses. They did very well when they were in school, but they skipped a lot, and they both quit school and eventually ended up getting their GED's. They were both very bright, but they just didn't care.

[WacoTX]

Christopher, you are absolutely right. GW ruined Texas and now is doing his number on the U.S. Everything he does has to be a show, a front for something else he is doing.

[Bob S.]

"To be honest,since you are one of the larger supporters, or at the minimum least critical,of Bush; I wanted to see what you thought of the poorly named "No Child Left Behind" brainchild of the president."

Yes, Topher, and I agree with you it is currently a waste of time and money.

"The only way for this testing to have any validity is for that testing to include tests are 100% identical."

Schools should all have a minimum standard for all tests that are nationwide. I agree with that. But why use these specific standardized tests to accomplish that? Minimnum standards are necessary but they should be measured using the school's own testing system. There is no reason to create this new large test to compare.

What we need instead of testing is standardized grading, a grade that the teachers (or expert supervisors) can provide on each test they give that shows how well certain children have grasped certain concepts. This would do many things from assessing each child throughout the year to assessing how well a teacher is teaching the lessons.

"Classroom participation, quiz, (regular) tests including mid-terms and finals all contribute to a student's final grade."

But as krc mentioned, there can be a huge gap between grades in class and scores on standardized tests. How does one blance that and what is more important?

"You make it sound like in VA there are no other tests besides the standardized tests. Why would a teacher stop teaching before final exams?"

Because their lessons are over. They successfully taught everything their students needed to learn. The standardized tests are too important and some teachers have to worry so much about them that they cut short many different lessons. Two weeks is a long time when talking about teaching.

"It is needed to establish baselines and benchmarks anything else is called conjecture."

So how did we ever make it before standardized testing? Were we all in the dark regarding the failing schools?

"It may take replacing the teachers, it may take adding more teachers to reduce the class size, it may take adding resources, it may take a change of administration but you need to identify when a school is failing so that you can correct that situation."

Exactly. But why should the threat of losing accrediation be made. Why not just state that those that are having the most trouble get more money and assistance?

"I can only guess that here you are speaking about school vouchers - something I totally disagree with!"

I disagree with vouchers as well. What I was saying was that around here, if a school performed poorly two years in a row (I think), the parents have the choice to move their children to another well performing school (public).

"In some of my posts I've mentioned that I think that the right has been very successful at co-opting the language"

This isn't endemic of just the right. It can be found by people of all political backgrounds.

"I was commenting less on the program...and more on his failure to properly fund that and real educational programs."

Yes, that is a problem, too. But even with appropriate funding, NCLB is flawed.

Bob S.

[krcNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
krcNY,

When my daughters were in high school they got mostly A's and even some A pluses. They did very well when they were in school, but they skipped a lot, and they both quit school and eventually ended up getting their GED's. They were both very bright, but they just didn't care. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not....Our kids love school.

I can understand kids who aren't smart (like me) hating school (I did), but why would smart ones hate school, unless they're smarter than the teachers and bored with the classes which offer them nothing? Also, where did my girls get their intelligence? It didn't come from their mother or me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[fred950]

The NCLB act, with it's emphasis on testing, brings back some very un-pleasent memories for me. I have (and had, even as a teen) an above average IQ. Yet I could just barely pass tests in just about any subject. I did not find out the reason untill I was well into my forties. It seems all those years in school, not one teacher reconized me as being dyslectric! Every one fellback on that old stand-by, "He's a smart kid, he just doesn't apply himself." Couple to that hearing impediments that went un-noticed untill the fourth grade. (To make matters worse, my hearing loss is greatest to the tonal range that just happens to include most female voices).

Now consider what one or two of mees would do to the test scores of an already (monitarily) poor school district and you have all the makings of a very big problem.

Sounds to me more like Every (poor) Child Left (farther) Behind.

[Caipora]

An additional problem with standard tests is that they emphasize the teaching of material that is easy to test.

I recall years ago a friend here in Brazil taking a college entrance exam. Admittance is based entirely on such tests. One of the questions asked the feminine of "Earl" (the British title of nobility). The answer is "Countess", but whether knowing that should get one into college is dubious.

I noticed a lot of that sort of thing with English teaching. Rules of grammar were taught that I had never heard of; it's easier to test the learning of rules of grammer than to test comprehension or the capacity for abstract thought.

Standardized tests distort teaching.

- Caipora

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I can understand kids who aren't smart (like me) hating school (I did), but why would smart ones hate school, unless they're smarter than the teachers and bored with the classes which offer them nothing? Also, where did my girls get their intelligence? It didn't come from their mother or me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some families put an emphasis on eating salads, veggies, fruit, unprocessed food, and appropriate proteins. These families raise healthy children. Other families allow their children to eat lots of processed food, untold amounts of junk food, pour sugar over cereal, and drink soda by the liter. These families have children with poor eating habits with a greater risk for obesity, heart disease and for becoming a diabetic. Which type of family has instilled the greater family values in their children?

Similarly, some parents are involved in the education of their children, stress education's importance in life, and generally have children that succeed in school. Other parents don't instill the value of education in their offspring, don't provide a home environment conducive to learning, and generally don't get involved in encouraging the attainment of knowledge. Once again I ask, which type of family stresses family values?

If a parent believes that their child is bored, uninspired, and coasting in school it is that parent's responsibilty to address those concerns with the teachers, guidance counselors, and school administrators. Much like anything else, you get out what you put in.

[Buff Man in MI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I can understand kids who aren't smart (like me) hating school (I did), but why would smart ones hate school, unless they're smarter than the teachers and bored with the classes which offer them nothing? Also, where did my girls get their intelligence? It didn't come from their mother or me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon-Marc, I've read quite a large number of your posts here and you certainly seem to be both intelligent and wise in my opinion. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So some of that must have rubbed off on your girls when you were not looking.

As for your other question, I have no succinct answer. My guess would be that at least part of it has to do with having a questioning nature. When I was a child I wanted to know as much as I could about the world around me, and the profession I chose for myself. I don't know where that questioning nature came from for me, but I used to read encyclopedias for fun. I do remember getting a lot that questioning nature from watching the Apollo 11 moon landing. Secretly I wanted to be an astronaut, or at least work for NASA. That might be the greatest legacy from the space program(s), the inspiration to kids around the world for learning.

I was horrible at multiplication when it was first taught in school, so I taught myself binary math, since converting numbers to binary and then multiplying 1's and 0's was easier than 5's, 7's and 9's and such. After much time (months) and practice with flash cards and at memorizing multiplication tables I was finally able to multiply in my head without the "trick" of resorting to binary. Rather than struggle or give up and accept my failure at not being able to multiply, I sought an alternative method which then led to a successful career. Other children that I knew would have simply accepted the failure and then thought of themselves as "dumb" and gave up trying to learn.

[JayFromFLA]

The NCLB legislation does many things, such as those described, and additionally:

1. Requires teachers to become "Highly Qualified" according to strict standards of certification within a certain number of years.

2. Requires districts to supply information to military recruiters, despite any previous opt-out choices made by parents.

And much, MUCH more.

Jason

[krcNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I can understand kids who aren't smart (like me) hating school (I did), but why would smart ones hate school, unless they're smarter than the teachers and bored with the classes which offer them nothing? Also, where did my girls get their intelligence? It didn't come from their mother or me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some families put an emphasis on eating salads, veggies, fruit, unprocessed food, and appropriate proteins. These families raise healthy children. Other families allow their children to eat lots of processed food, untold amounts of junk food, pour sugar over cereal, and drink soda by the liter. These families have children with poor eating habits with a greater risk for obesity, heart disease and for becoming a diabetic. Which type of family has instilled the greater family values in their children?

Similarly, some parents are involved in the education of their children, stress education's importance in life, and generally have children that succeed in school. Other parents don't instill the value of education in their offspring, don't provide a home environment conducive to learning, and generally don't get involved in encouraging the attainment of knowledge. Once again I ask, which type of family stresses family values?

If a parent believes that their child is bored, uninspired, and coasting in school it is that parent's responsibilty to address those concerns with the teachers, guidance counselors, and school administrators. Much like anything else, you get out what you put in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are the family that eats healthy(most of the time, we let things slip once in a while) and we are very involved in both of the older kids studies.
I even read the books they need to for Essays and Book Reports, so that I can review their reports with some knowledge and critique or question how they came to that sentence. They seem to like that I have read their book and like to talk it over with me.

BTW, they are very healhy and do not miss school. They get awards at the end of the school year for perfect attendance all through out the year. They look forward to it.

School should be interesting and challenging to hold their interest. Of course, if the parents don't help with encouragement, praise or loving, constructive critiquing, children often learn not to care. My wife and I separated when my younger one was only a couple of months old, and I only saw them on weekends when their mother would let me have them.

[Ren]

I think the state of Massachusetts is fortunate that I got out of high school before implementing its standardized testing. I was a top student and went to a highly ranked college out of high school. I did not necessarily test well on standardized tests, though I did hit the SAT mean at my college. Nevertheless, had they implemented the testing before I got out, I would have made the news.

The chief complaints usually come from those in danger of failing the tests, but those who will pass with flying colors see little point in them as well. I would have refused to take the test and would have led a protest against them in the state. I'd have liked to see the state try to withhold my diploma.

Standardized testing is a faulty system that does not reflect what is learned in the school, but rather the innate cognitive abilities of a person. Curricula are oftentimes pared down, labs are often scrapped, and arts (on the upper grades) and much needed recesses (on the lower grades) are reduced in order to make up for a test formed, quite often by bureaucrats who know little about actual learning. Therefore, you wind up with students who know how to take a test, but have little knowledge.

Colleges in MA have discovered that kids are no more prepared after taking the state standardized test (MCAS) than they were when MCAS didn't exist. In fact, kids are sometimes even more woefully underprepared. And local schools have seen a decrease in kids going on to colleges since the implementation of MCAS. While they might not be related exactly, the mission of the government to better prepare the kids to move on to college seems to have failed.

The SAT did not say much about my intellect, my ability to think about an issue, my ability to write well, or provide more than a composite of what was in my math and English vocabularies. The SAT should be scrapped. Standardized testing should be scrapped.

There could be a system of assessment, but it has to be in the hands of educators, parents and students, not the government. But really, we didn't need this way back when and we shouldn't now. Maybe colleges should put in more work rather than looking for a cheap way of determining talent. Maybe public schools should stop being bipolar in their approach (coddling, then threatening, them) and work to enhance the intellectual abilities of all.

What I hope for is that teachers and students of all stripes revolt and that colleges reduce the meaning of these so-called assessments.

As one who teaches in public schools from time-to-time, I can tell you that the problem is this interference and laissez-faire parents, not the teachers (on the whole). And standardized tests reflect little on the effectiveness of a certain school.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krcNY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I can understand kids who aren't smart (like me) hating school (I did), but why would smart ones hate school, unless they're smarter than the teachers and bored with the classes which offer them nothing? Also, where did my girls get their intelligence? It didn't come from their mother or me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some families put an emphasis on eating salads, veggies, fruit, unprocessed food, and appropriate proteins. These families raise healthy children. Other families allow their children to eat lots of processed food, untold amounts of junk food, pour sugar over cereal, and drink soda by the liter. These families have children with poor eating habits with a greater risk for obesity, heart disease and for becoming a diabetic. Which type of family has instilled the greater family values in their children?

Similarly, some parents are involved in the education of their children, stress education's importance in life, and generally have children that succeed in school. Other parents don't instill the value of education in their offspring, don't provide a home environment conducive to learning, and generally don't get involved in encouraging the attainment of knowledge. Once again I ask, which type of family stresses family values?

If a parent believes that their child is bored, uninspired, and coasting in school it is that parent's responsibilty to address those concerns with the teachers, guidance counselors, and school administrators. Much like anything else, you get out what you put in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are the family that eats healthy(most of the time, we let things slip once in a while) and we are very involved in both of the older kids studies.
I even read the books they need to for Essays and Book Reports, so that I can review their reports with some knowledge and critique or question how they came to that sentence. They seem to like that I have read their book and like to talk it over with me.

BTW, they are very healhy and do not miss school. They get awards at the end of the school year for perfect attendance all through out the year. They look forward to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love it when people prove my points for me. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The point that I was making was quite simple: you reap what you sow.

If you don't care if your children are well educated you don't become too involved as a parent. If you want your children to love learning, enjoy school, and make something of themselves you involve yourself in creating an environment that fosters those ideals.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
School should be interesting and challenging to hold their interest. Of course, if the parents don't help with encouragement, praise or loving, constructive critiquing, children often learn not to care. My wife and I separated when my younger one was only a couple of months old, and I only saw them on weekends when their mother would let me have them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of my friends come from homes where the parents are divorced. Yet, they received encouragement from both parents. Both parents are involved in their education, attending educational events, etc. They put their differences aside for the sake of their children.

[krcNY]

I like how you think Christopher.

If we don't push and help them....who will??????

[Bob S.]

Ren, thank you for that message. It reflects so much of what I wanted to say. Sometimes when I have too much on my nind to write about, everything scrambles and I have to make do with what is left.

Topher and others are correct that parents are a vital part of the education process. We have seen cities, states, and the feds throw huge amounts of money on top of already huge amounts of money to the schools. It isn't working.

What needs to happen is we need a program that gets parents involved. If parents could become a larger part of their child's education, the amount of money needed to prop up the schools could drop considerably.

Children need adults around them who care about how they are doing in school. Those who have that foundation at home do much better than those who don't have that support structure. And having that home structure also allows for them to dream about the future and have high hopes. That is one of the biggest intrinsic reasons to stay in school and study hard.

The standardized tests do not and cannot measure these important factors. Bad teachers are not the major reason why schools fail. The individual students, their families, and the community all play a larger part in how a school performs.

Two alternatives to testing: standardized progress reports that can detect which students are at risk, thus saving them before the end of the year, which is too late. Parental involvement programs to give the children the vital home base for their education.

Bob S.

[Ren]

I actually think we're being too kind. The whole educational system in this country needs to be dismantled and rebuilt. I don't know how to go about this, and it's been a festive weekend here, so I'm tired. But the more I look at my artifacts from when I was in school, the more I read about the past, and the more I experience in the present, as with many things run be the government, we are too entrenched to try something new, which is what must happen.

Education should be considered a universal human right. The material shouldn't be entertaining, but maybe if we provided teachers with salaries and took a little away from say the overbloated military budgets, we'd attract the entertaining energetic types. Teachers are on the clock for 40 hours, but work usually twice that per week to fulfill all the responsibilities of work. We need to stop focusing on enhancing self-esteem via false and dubious praise and make the kids realize the importance of education. We need to realize that not every kid will have the same interests, and perhaps we should form academies that play to strengths of kids, while providing them with a solid core curriculum so they aren't too specialized. People forget that we need the mechanics, the artists, and the biologists, and that maybe just maybe we should enhance those aspects of interest at a younger age, but still give them reading, science, and the arts as supplementals. We need to stop ranking kids based on grades and scores; we need to stop making some institutions sports combines; and we need to understand that education is like eating veggies - we won't always like it, but it's good for us and necessary.

But no, as with everything, we won't see a revolution, because what education is now is high stakes gambling controlled by bureaucrats who see bottom lines and finish lines where there should be no lines at all.

[G Michael]

I am a teacher now. This is my third career. My first was in the Air Force, both enlisted and as an officer. My second was as an entrepreneur in the electronics field (I am still involved here). Now I am teaching.

I for one am delighted with NCLB. It is not perfect; it needs some tweaking; it is long over due; at last, a little accountability.

In 1979, as an Air Force NCO, I had to teach high school graduates how to read. We spend way more in this country for education than any other country on the planet. It is about time we started getting our money’s worth. NCLB focuses on reading and math. Lets take care of the basics first.

G. Michael