Projecting sexuality onto nudism

[Centauri4]

An interesting point was made this weekend and it made me think about how nudity is viewed even by nudists.

If a life-long nudist, someone living ALL of the ideals we hold dear and use as guidance for our actions, acting with complete honesty and innocence in their behavior was stopped by a parent or guardian and told they must dress before engaging in a particular activity, what impact would that have upon them?

If someone climbing a cliff face were told they "must" wear shorts to keep climbers below them from observing their nakedness at a particular angle, would they feel some sense of shame?

If a ballet dancer was stopped before a show and told their costume was simply too revealing, would they be justified in refusing to perform it any other way?

I purpose that even we are capable of "psychological projection" and presuming our understanding of an activity 'must be' the person's understanding of and motivation for that activity also.

It is also possible the "trauma" of being forced to wear clothing is a motivating factor in the advocacy of nudism because we each seek to undo the body shame instilled upon us in youth and adolescence.

It makes considering how well we know ourselves an important facet of "being" a dedicated and happy nudist and allowing others to find their own way in all nudist activities.

~

[Running Bear]

Naturism and textile are the same apart from the dress code. If it is ok when dressed it is ok when naked. If I see a pretty lady on a textile beach I may be attracted to her (even act as a clothes fetish) surely this is no different to the textile on a naturist beach seeing a naked girl and being attracted to her for her pretty body. The idea that a textile on a naturist beach is always a voyeur then is not logical. A meerkat may just be a naturist have a look for his friends or a birdwatcher.
PS:where a specific gender related idea is promoted the opposite also applies if you are female or the same if that applies :-)

[NudonyII]

Ok...so what was the question again? LOL!:wiseguy:

If it's about practicing nudism on one's own terms (i.e according to one's personal philosophy of nudism), even if it is not completely in accordance with the general consensus or even maybe "against the grain" of whatever social setting one finds him/herself in; then I would agree - to an extent.

I'll use myself as an example. Nudism and physical activity are to me an inseparable practice. That is just part of my lifelong "gymnosophic" philosophy. More often than not, I have found myself in the midst of nudists who did not share that philosophy; except for their children. So you can guess whom I have typically found myself engaged in physical activity with. Yeap, the kids. And we know that the nude adult who runs around with the kids is often met with skepticism, doubt and even some measure of anxiety. My method of handling this was by befriending the parents and keeping any type of physical contact to a light minimum (even when I was once jumped by two teenage girls and tossed in the pool, I made sure my hands remained neutral - which can be hard when you're being tackled).

If I got your point correctly, then I agree that one should feel free to practice nudism according to one's proclivity. But one also has to maintain an awareness of the "collective consciousness"; i.e how others respond to said behavior. Being aware of reactions and responding immediately in a positive manner. And thereby "defusing" other peoples "projections": "Ah, okay...he's just a cool guy playing...not some kind of perv...and my girls are having a good time tossing his behind in the pool...no problem there!" My behavior was never challenged because my intentions were clearly communicated and transparent; a bit outside of the norm, yet still within boundaries that most could understand and feel comfortable with.

[Centauri4]

If I got your point correctly, then I agree that one should feel free to practice nudism according to one's proclivity. But one also has to maintain an awareness of the "collective consciousness"; i.e. how others respond to said behavior. Being aware of reactions and responding immediately in a positive manner. And thereby "defusing" other peoples "projections": "Ah, okay...he's just a cool guy playing... not some kind of perv ...and my girls are having a good time tossing his behind in the pool... no problem there!"

Any group of people will tend to adopt a "guarded posture" when faced with some familiar set of circumstances, for example:

A group of a dozen tourists stops to take photographs at a scenic overlook when a similar sized group of rough looking, leather dressed motorcycle riders stops also. The tourists might adopt a heightened posture of awareness and defensiveness before any verbal greetings are exchanged, and generally we look at this as normal and cautious. If there are children in both groups, a significant chance exists they will make the first contact with each other without the "benefit" of reserved, cautious and guarded experiences adults draw upon.

To me, this does not mean the children were wrong or out of line in their approach to the situation, they simply approached it "openly" and with fewer reservations.

Adults teach children to be cautious based on our experiences and wisdom and this is perfectly reasonable. Children and teenagers often teach adults through creativity, innovation and invention by exploring new approaches to old, familiar situations and by challenging long-held traditions.

We all feel things in primarily the same ways and sometimes recognize a "sixth sense" that causes the hair to stand up on the back of our necks, pupils to dilate and muscles to tense, this is genetic and instinctive but that does not mean it is ALWAYS right or necessary.

If two or three children were wrestling and about to toss one in the pool, we generally would NOT assume their is any sexually-motivated reason for this behavior, would we? I hope not. So who is the teacher when nudist parents tell their children not to wrestle this way because others parents might get the wrong idea?

If any one of the children were to get physically aroused as a result of the closeness and physical contact of the playful wrestling, it is important NOT to judge them based on this simple physical reaction but rather on what they do afterwards. Forbidding children to engage in a particular form of behavior is far less important of a lesson then explaining to them how to be careful with their response to a situation, perhaps how to view it through "our" eyes and the cognitive skill of exploring the way other people might interpret any demonstration of youthful exuberance.

A phrase such as, "Mom! Dad! Ew, gross, we were not doing anything like that!" might have more wisdom in it than is commonly appreciated.

~

[Running Bear]

Ok...so what was the question again? LOL!:wiseguy:
...If I got your point correctly,
...boundaries that most could understand and feel comfortable with.
The question was naturism and sexuality and yes, you did get my point correctly. If sexulity is present in the clothed state then it is also present in the naked state. If it is not present clothed then it is also not present naked (although not always an exact science!). It is very important to develop the required social skills to ensure your intentions are clear (not always an easy task!).
I have had my kilt lifted by a naturist lady, so was this an assault or appropriate behaviour in the situation? Her intent was clear; mischief not sexual gratification :-) ....at least I hope not? Perhaps I would normally be offended but since it was on a naturist site the standards of decorum were different that in a textile world.
Yes, it was worn Highland style :-)

[REDCHIK]

Who among us cannot appreciate a beautiful person? Male or female, young or old.
I can admire a woman for her beauty, or confidence in her walk, without making her feel violated. So when a man admires the same beauty, is it the man who makes her feel uncomfortable? Or is it the woman who feels ogled?
You can admire an attractive child, and it's okay to say, "Your children are gorgeous". Do the parents feel threatened with the statement? Not in this context.
You can say,"You have lovely eyes". But why not, "You have lovely breasts"? Undoubtedly such a comment may be true, but because of social rules and etiquette in general we realize that such a compliment could be misinterpreted.
Sexuality is part of human nature. The sin in it comes from lusting after what is not to be had. When it became normal to have extramarital affairs, to divorce and remarry, and promiscuity was accepted, it seemed to unveil the sinful side of the sexes. Westerners turned away from "puritan practice" to enjoy a sense of independence, or is it defiance? As Americans, we want to do whatever we want to, but when the neighbor does it to, we don't like it. We disapprove of pornography, but watch movies with gratuitous sex scenes, and fail to see the difference.
My overall outlook here, is that it isn't necessarily the man that makes a woman uncomfortable. Sometimes the woman makes herself feel uncomfortable.

[jon71]

That's some good points Red. The same action may be perceived as acceptable, even flattering by one person, and over the line by another. We all have our own personal comfort zone and our own life experiences by which we judge things. Appreciating beauty is natural but we'll never have a full consensus on how that can acceptably be expressed we can just sort of practice a golden rule approach and hope our good intentions show through.

[Centauri4]

In teaching the next generation of nudists, I think it is helpful to encourage people to be respectful in their actions and words and support behavior that also demonstrates our ideals.

How often I have met someone at a nudist resort and failed to shake their hand in greeting, and a few times I have been a little reluctant to hug someone goodbye when parting; these are both cases where I "forgot" nudity was less important than being respectful and friendly (fortunately, no young people were watching when I failed to set a good example).

Unfortunately many areas of the country I "feel" people are "socially cold" when it comes to relating to strangers (visitors, tourists, etc.). Perhaps this is in part due to the "post 9/11" suspicions many of us are now aware of, sadly.

I think we can sometimes learn more from children than we teach them, from their demonstrations of being "naturally friendly" or "naturally social" by acting on instinct and being open to wider varieties of activities and "play". Two or more children can go off and search for bugs in the yard for hours and not worry about missing anything else, it becomes the priority of their day or the activity of the hour. Only, I think they do not label it, quantify it or "control it" the way adults do with most of our activities.

My point is, and I realize I wandered a bit, that passing on "labels" to children and even among ourselves (the nudist community) is something to be mindful of. The simple "use of a label" perpetuates its use by others, so maybe even referring to each other as "nudists" and "non-nudists" is a tricky business. What if the activity of being naked did not have a label? What if not caring what someone wore became more common than, "You're going to wear that!?!" Again, in this respect I think the younger generation of nudists HAS ALREADY led the way in creating their own fashion trends that we often "condemn" without a thought. Could being critical of someone's style of dress be reinforcing an "anti-nudity philosophy"? Is caring that someone's underware is showing above their jeans actually meaningful? Or would encouraging a greater acceptance of this "style" be more helpful in promoting dress style acceptance as a whole?

I hope to appreciate more hairstyles in 2009.
I hope to appreciate more tattoos in 2009.
I hope to appreciate more evenly bronze tanned skin in 2009.
I hope to encourge more physical activity, health and fitness-related things in 2009.

I hope to use a few less labels in 2009 and just enjoy life.

~

[JeepNude]

Back to the original question...

You posted- "It is also possible the "trauma" of being forced to wear clothing is a motivating factor"

You know what? it's funny you should bring this up. And, that you should word it this way.

I just had this conversation with my wife recently. I explained to her how I could go for days without a stitch on, then have to dress for work or some textile-dependent guests, and how I truly do feel traumatized by the clothing restricting me. She did not discover living naturally until after marrying me 20 years ago, so to her, getting dressed seems natural. Growing up nude 80% of my life, unless it is cold, to me having clothing all over me is truly a traumatic experience.

For instance, my wife and I are both animal lovers. We both cringe when we see chimps in suits performing stunts or acting. We have both seen the trauma an animal experiences when they are 'straight jacketed' in clothing. The chimp cannot move its limbs correctly and begins to move in unnatural ways. Over time, this can cause malformities in the chimps body structure, same as humans. For instance- The deep indentation many men have below their belly button where the ever-presence of a waistband has permanently caved the area inward. This is unnatural to the human body, regardless of build, yet everyone just accepts it. Back on topic, I told her, why is that cruelty to an animal, but not cruelty to me? Afterall, I am not accustomed to being confined in clothing, yet I am forced into doing so, and I truly do feel traumatized in the process. In fact, I know that it affects my health because of stress levels. She says I am a big wuss, I just need to 'get over it'. But, I tell you, in all honesty, it is very sad indeed to take a body and wrap it tightly in clothing and restrict it so. I can tell you first hand.

So, back to your statement. It is truly possible to cause trauma with clothing when it is not used for providing warmth to the innocent skin below. My blood pressure measurements can vouch for that. Oh, and I do NOT have a dent below my belly button from a waistband! it's the simple things I am most proud of.

[Pete Knight]

Back to the original question...

You posted- "It is also possible the "trauma" of being forced to wear clothing is a motivating factor"

<snip>

So, back to your statement. It is truly possible to cause trauma with clothing when it is not used for providing warmth to the innocent skin below. My blood pressure measurements can vouch for that. Oh, and I do NOT have a dent below my belly button from a waistband! it's the simple things I am most proud of.

I understand where you're coming from, I do get that feeling but for me its mostly the other way around, I get a feeling of rising panic on warm sunny days if I can't take my clothes off, or if I've been doing something strenuous and my body temperature starts to rise. I cut my parents rather extensive lawn and often end up feeling hot and bothered but am unable to strip off, that leaves me with feelings of panic and frustration.

Pete Knight

[nudenwv]

hope i'm reading this post right and saying what i have to and keep it with the theme. the great thing about being a nudist is not having to dig through the closet to find something to wear. i'm without clothes so much when i do have to search for something to wear i find i have gained weight and it doesn't fit anymore. that causes some frustration. as nudist we can throw away the lable maker and just be who we are.

[bernardc]

I loved your article at tbhe beginning of the thread,Cen[..]4.In another forum ,?the big why not? I expanded on the difference between sex and sexuality.I believe one cannot,and should noty seperate sexuality from nudism.Sexuality is very much part of nudism,as nudism exsentuates the estheticness(the beauty) of the naked body.There is a difference between enjoying naked bodies,and lusting naked bodies.
Sexaulity is at the core of nudism,as by sexuality,you learn to enjoy your body holistically,without the act of sex.Sexuality,helps you develope a love relationship with your body,and what it potrays,THE CROWN OF GODS CREATION,IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS.Sexuality gives you your sexual orientation,and your sexual identification with your preference.It encourages the appreciation of the body,and its responses to certain stimuli.As you mentioned,kids wrestling(Nude kids,and boys as an example)The constant rubbing and friction interaction of their naked bodies wrestling ,may cause a genital response,just as walking in the raw nature,and for example brusshing against a bottle bush or some grass,it to could cause a reaction,and its usualy one of a deeper pleasure which I call perceptual pleasure,yet,there is no sexual lust associated to it,its merely a response to a pleasurable sensation.
To wear clothes to me,is traumatic,because I somehow feel robbed of experiencing the holistic nature against my skin!Look at children playing on the beach.Immagine they are allwearing shoes,socks,trousers a sweater They will play,but sooner or later,they will rid themselves of their shoes and socks...boys later rid themselves of their shirts,and if they have a swimming trunks on,the trousers will soon be discarded,and youl see a new energy in the game.It shows they are boys/men,and proud of it...it causes a sense of belonging,and same mindedness,and freedom to be young!
Sexuality is not only gender based,but its part of it.Now take young kids,Boys and girls ,strip them naked and send them out to play, soon gender issues are set asside,and only pleasure remains.Thats why todlers always atemt to flee from clothes once they are naked.
With sexuality,I have identified who I am and what I enjoy.It makes me like my body,its responses and sensations,including my genitals,yet,there is no sex-ual thought to it,and there is no lust associated with it,my penis is as much part of my body,and enjoys the same sense of freedom,as do my barefeet.Mud between by bare toes give as much pleasure as mud against my penis.It a body sensation,not a sex-ual lust.
Yes,one could project sexuality onto nudism,for therin we respect our genders,identify our genders,and appreciate their unique and beautifull differences,adults,teens and kids.
Its psycologically traumatising to me if I am forced to compromise my nakedness and the ease I have with it,for the morals of judgemental individuals.I say,nudists,stand up for being a nudist,and appreciate the fact that you want to be nude,and enjoy it.If your a newcommer to naturism reading this(centauri4 excluded) and you have certain genital responses the first few times,its not wrong nor bad,its the sheer sensation of no more need to hide what was always hidden in mystery and secrecy,its not lust,its a mere response of pleasure,it will become more comfortable with time.Its the realisation that I am not different to others,and now I can truly express the real me,the blessedness of not being ashamed anymore,not having to be shy,and hide and run to hide,to fret that you will be caught naked,and the guts to be a real person for once,stripped of pretenses and alter identities.Being naked with others,is being proud an relieved,that I am a genuine person.If its traumatic to get dressed for others,then dont.Be who you are and want to be,who cares for the odd erection,its not foreign to us.So what if people see,I"ll be discreet,but never appologise for it,because I know its not sex related,but merely a result of the sexual male being I am.its part of our male set up.The pleasure of not being ashamed any more,outweighs the prejuidices of others against us.Thanks for your fantastic posting centauri4,all respect to you.

[Triker]

Who among us cannot appreciate a beautiful person? Male or female, young or old.
I can admire a woman for her beauty, or confidence in her walk, without making her feel violated. So when a man admires the same beauty, is it the man who makes her feel uncomfortable? Or is it the woman who feels ogled?
You can admire an attractive child, and it's okay to say, "Your children are gorgeous". Do the parents feel threatened with the statement? Not in this context.
You can say,"You have lovely eyes". But why not, "You have lovely breasts"? Undoubtedly such a comment may be true, but because of social rules and etiquette in general we realize that such a compliment could be misinterpreted.
Sexuality is part of human nature. The sin in it comes from lusting after what is not to be had. When it became normal to have extramarital affairs, to divorce and remarry, and promiscuity was accepted, it seemed to unveil the sinful side of the sexes. Westerners turned away from "puritan practice" to enjoy a sense of independence, or is it defiance? As Americans, we want to do whatever we want to, but when the neighbor does it to, we don't like it. We disapprove of pornography, but watch movies with gratuitous sex scenes, and fail to see the difference.
My overall outlook here, is that it isn't necessarily the man that makes a woman uncomfortable. Sometimes the woman makes herself feel uncomfortable.

That is very well said.....RED. I'm a poet, and I know it. ;) :D

[George08]

no sex should be involved in nudism