Ritual nudity

[skyclad85]

Hey all!

I am not Christian. I left the Christian Church as it wasn't quite for me (nothing wrong with it, just not me), and have recently found a new path that interests me - Wicca. There are different traditions within Wicca, just as there are different denominations within Chrisitanity.

Anyway, the group that I want to join and with whom I have been studying, practice ritual nudity. The idea is behind it is that people use clothes as a shield. When you enter the Wiccan religious circle, you must enter in perfect love and perfect trust. Shedding your clothes is an expression of perfect trust.

I haven't been initiated into the circle yet, so I have not practiced any ritual nudity as of yet, but the time it coming! My initiation calls for me to enter the circle 'skyclad' (nude) from the get-go. So, needless to say, my religious life does not in anyway conflict with my choice of lifestyle.

[skyclad85]

Hey all!

I am not Christian. I left the Christian Church as it wasn't quite for me (nothing wrong with it, just not me), and have recently found a new path that interests me - Wicca. There are different traditions within Wicca, just as there are different denominations within Chrisitanity.

Anyway, the group that I want to join and with whom I have been studying, practice ritual nudity. The idea is behind it is that people use clothes as a shield. When you enter the Wiccan religious circle, you must enter in perfect love and perfect trust. Shedding your clothes is an expression of perfect trust.

I haven't been initiated into the circle yet, so I have not practiced any ritual nudity as of yet, but the time it coming! My initiation calls for me to enter the circle 'skyclad' (nude) from the get-go. So, needless to say, my religious life does not in anyway conflict with my choice of lifestyle.

[BareInBare]

Skyclad:

Be wary of certain Wicca groups. I am aware that nudity is practiced among some circles. My wife is Wiccan. She said that certain sects that do ritual nudity hold initiations whereas you have love ceremonies with EVERYONE in the group... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif but I also understand they are few. Other than that, Wicca is a great religion and I am exploring it as a solidary practioner whereas I would also exercise ritual nudity.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skyclad85:
...When you enter the Wiccan religious circle, you must enter in perfect love and perfect trust. Shedding your clothes is an expression of perfect trust. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>MM Skyclad,

Congratulations on finding a spiritual path that fits your beliefs. I think there are several of us around here.

I'm a solitary Wiccan who practices skyclad. In my case, it's mostly about discarding the symbolic barriers to a more direct connection with the God and Goddess. Once you get rid of the various societal "hats" that clothing represents, that connection seems much easier to make.

If your initiation ritual feels right to you and if the group you're joining is a good match, enjoy it and what it represents. You only need to be wary of groups that require you to do things that feel wrong to you. The Great Rite is a part of some ceremonies, but I'm not aware of any groups that use it as an excuse for an orgy. Most don't even include the literal Rite as part of their group practice (and certainly not initiations); it's generally done symbolically with the chalice and athame. The literal act is typically reserved for private practice with a consenting partner. But if you're approaching initiation, you know your circle's stand on this issue.

Welcome home! MM, MP, and MM again!
Vin

[Trailscout]

In the first centuries of the early church, candidates for baptism were frequently baptised in the nude. It symbolized abandoning all trappings of your old life, being reborn.

In time, the Church assimilated a dislike for the material world and only saw virtue in the spirit realm. This came from Greek philosophy and body shame was the result. Shame had been patched into Christianity, which hithertofore had been a very body-affirming faith. Centuries later, the Christian Renaissance artists began to recognize the basic incompatibility of body shame with our other beliefs. There was considerable opposition to the restoration of nudity to its rightful place in our lives, but the door was at least reopened to a long process of restoration.
We have paid dearly for our long-held mistaken views.

Nudism in America has partially Christian roots by virtue of one of its founders, Rev. Ilsey Boone, but he was widely opposed by those who still did not "get it".

Christian nudism is growing rapidly, I think because we need it so much for healing our souls. Certain elements in the Christian community are putting up much of the resistance to social nudity. We who are part of that community of faith are working to change that, one person at a time. C.S. Lewis, one of Christianity's greatest thinkers in the past century, had a lot of positive things to say about nudity in his novel Perelandra, but few of the Christians who have been inspired by his books of faith have ever read his persuasive pro-nudity statements.

Maybe if churches get back to the ritual of public nude baptism that will be the sign that we have returned to where we are supposed to be.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
In the first centuries of the early church, candidates for baptism were frequently baptised in the nude. It symbolized abandoning all trappings of your old life, being reborn.

In time, the Church assimilated a dislike for the material world and only saw virtue in the spirit realm. This came from Greek philosophy and body shame was the result.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's beautiful symbolism. Nearly all religious initiation ceremonies seem to have some representation of breaking with the past and embarking on a new future.

I have a question, though (an honest one, not a rhetorical one to start a debate /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ): why do you say that Christianity's taboo on nudity comes from the Greeks? I was led to believe (in church) that it grew out of the sense of shame engendered by Adam's and Eve's fall from grace. After all, the first mention of body shame in the Bible is in Genesis immediately after they eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

I wonder if there are any modern churches that practice nude baptism?

Vin

[skyclad85]

I don't really think that its from the Greeks. Remember that the ancient Greek male use to train and compete in their form of the Olympics in the nude. I think women were banned from the audience, but I also think that the ancient Greeks admired the nude body.

I don't really know if Christian hangups came from the Genesis story in the Bible, or from Victorian times, when women weren't even allowed to show their lower legs.

[Prometheus]

From what I have read, the Greek connection came from a group known as the Gnostics who were part of the first-century Christian church. They believed that the second coming would come within a few years and they therefore urged Christians to put aside all worldly things to prepare themselves for spiritual reward. I remember one passage in the Christian Scriptures (somewhere in the Epistles I think) that urged people not to marry and similar things for this reason.

I don't mean to say that the Gnostics represented the beliefs of all contemporary Greeks, but it was a philosophy that was influential in the early Christian Church.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skyclad85:
Remember that the ancient Greek male use to train and compete in their form of the Olympics in the nude. I think women were banned from the audience. . . .

I don't really know if Christian hangups came from the Genesis story in the Bible. . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Women were banned during the Olympic games, but I don't think it had anything to do with nudity. The Olympic games, held every four years at Olympia, were part of highly sacred?and secret to men only?worship rituals. There was a death penalty for any woman who might sneek in to watch.

Women also had their games held every 4 years (alternating between the men's games), and women also competed nude. Again, it was part of the worship ritual. However, men were allowed to observe.

I'm not convinced that "Christian hangups" can be traced to any specific theology or era. Christianity, as with any religion, has always been influenced by the culture of the place and time. Lots of variations have come and gone.

What is new in my lifetime is this strong fear among younger men that there is something wrong with men being nude together in locker rooms or when swimming in secluded places. That hasn't come from religion, at least not in any direct way.

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvnaturism:
What is new in my lifetime is this strong fear among younger men that there is something wrong with men being nude together in locker rooms or when swimming in secluded places. That hasn't come from religion, at least not in any direct way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've noticed that too. At my old job, when we first moved into a new building, there were showers in the back of the men's restrooms. At first there were no curtains separating the shower area from the rest of the restroom, but I remember in a meeting someone, older than myself, suggested that more men would use the showers if curtains were added to separate the shower area. It wasn't long before it happened. Even back then, before I accepted naturism, I thought the whole issue was silly.

But from certain things I've read, a major cause of this fear among younger men appears to be a reluctance to be seen in the nude by possible homosexuals. To paraphrase what I wrote in another post, "Nudity equals sex; homosexuality is bad; therefore nudity among men is bad." And no, this doesn't come from Christianity; even though the Bible is distinctly down on homosexual sex, no theologian to my knowledge has condemned intra-gender nudity, male or female. Still, a lot of good people have been damaged by verbal pot-shots from rabid anti-gays and other antis.

Naturism is a reminder, once and for all, that we don't need to fear our bodies or be ashamed of them. Maybe a little ritual nudity would do everyone good!

[nekkidgene]

I was just wondering if there are any agnostic nudists around? I don't want to offend anyone, but all this talk about justifying nudism in regards to the Bible misses the point. First, establish the errancy/inerrancy of the Bible. It was never meant to be considered a 'textbook'. As having been a student of religion @ the University of Georgia, I know for a fact that the Bible lacks in accuracy at any given level; be it historical, geographical, spiritual, etc. Its not even known if many of the Biblical characters actually existed, ESPECIALLY ADAM @ EVE for Pete's sake! Let's get real here. Any Jewish Rabbi will tell you that that Hebrew translation of Adam means 'mankind' as a whole, not a person named Adam. Adam in Hebrew in not a person's name. Eve means 'mother of ALL living things', not just humans. In all probability, Adam & Eve never existed literally, only literarally as an attempt by the author of Genesis to make tangible a human understanding of how we got here & how sin & death came into being.

Nakedness is symbolic of innocence. Shame is symbolic of guilt from disobedience. So, when 'Adam'(mankind) disobeyed God, we lost our naked state of 'purity' to shame. We all do this when we reach the age of accountability; we lose our innocence 'so to speak'. The Adam & Eve myth has nothing to do with being nude.

I know a lot of you will disagree with me but that's just my educated opinion. Nudity should be an amoral issue. We all came here naked, why not enjoy it?! I don't need a bible to justify a nude lifestyle!

[Trailscout]

Prometheus,

You are correct. I believe that the Gnostic heretical sect of Christianity developed in Greece and borrowed liberally from some elements of Stoic Greek philosophical schools.
It is true that body shame was almost unknown in ancient Greek society. If memory serves, first century Athenians were a pluralistic society but mostly very positive about nudity. Two of the most prominent Greek world views were the Stoic and Epicurean philosophies. We shall leave the Epicureans for another day and focus on the Stoics. I never heard about shame over nakedness among Stoics, but their almost Spartan discipline and severity seems to have inspired the Gnostics, who taught that all matter is imperfect, corrupt and they consequently saw little good in the human body. They saw good only in the spirit realm.

The Gnostics did not completely overwhelm mainstream Christianity with all aspects of their doctrines. It was simply that a Gnostic-derived tendency to intense body shame developed in certain Greek congregations and this abberent attitude eventually came to dominate the church by the Dark Ages.

The apostle Paul was admantly opposed to Gnostic teaching. A remark he made in which he suggested that single people would do well to remain single has sometimes been misinterpreted to indicate a Gnostic leaning. Not so. He was addressing one community of believers at a time when persecution was particularly intense and did not repeat this advice to other churches.

Dispite Paul's efforts, Gnostic thought affected the church subtly for centuries and we are just now emerging from its shadow.

[Trailscout]

Nekkid Gene,
I am not offended by people who do not have a position on the existence of God.

I do think you have missed my point. Millions of us do turn to the Bible for the final authoritative answer on how to live our lives. That does not make us fundamentalists. Most of us believe that God can and does speak through the Bible in spite of imperfect translations.

The Bible is indeed a remarkably accurate textbook of Jewish history and philosophy and has been the inspiration for enlightened systems of government.

It is unnecessarily cynical to claim that some biblical characters cannot be proven to have actually lived. Without photography, social security cards, academic records, millions of people both in and out of the Bible lived their lives with no paper trail and we would be quite at a loss to prove or disprove their existence.

I have no doubt in the existence of Adam and Eve as the progenitors of humanity. If you refuse to believe in them, it seems you do so out of stubborness and not reason.

Adam does not mean mankind in Hebrew. The name derives from the word for ruddy, as in a "ruddy complexion".

Adam had the priviledge of naming his wife, "Eve", so we can presume that they were both human and all their offspring were as well.

The Bible is replete with examples of patriarchs who became the namesake of their tribes. Adam, being the patriarch of all humanity became our common namesake.

If you insist on treating the Genesis account as allegorical, that does not demand that you become an agnostic. Many Christians, Jews and Muslims take this view and search for the higher message in the text.

Because this is a naturist forum, much is made of Adam and Eve's nakedness, but it is just one aspect of the lesson the Bible teaches.

There is ample reason to believe that the first humans literally did not wear clothes and lived a life of innocence in a more figurative sense. Literature has often taken literal events and ascribed higher meaning to them. There are cases in scripture where metaphor has no literal roots, but this is not one of them.

Because the readership of this forum is quite diverse, it is inevitable that some posts between Christian readers debating Biblical commentary on nudity and shame would fall on the ears of some who do not use the Bible as a guideline to daily life. If you find yourself in this latter group, kindly allow us to discuss the values taught in this book we revere as sacred. For us, no action is divorced from moral consequences.

[Prometheus]

It looks like this thread has gradually turned from Pagan to Christian. I will leave that issue for others to discuss, and instead present the following thought:

Religious practices, especially those not dictated by sacred texts, are inevitably influenced by society. With our society's current negative attitudes toward nudity, it would be difficult to convince an entire group the size of a Christian congregation to practice ritual nudity. However, most Pagans practice alone or in small groups. It is much easier to promote ritual nudity in groups of that size. However, I can't help wondering if skyclad ceremonies will become less common if/when Pagan groups grow larger. On the other hand, maybe Pagans will avoid creating large congregations and we will never find out.

[Trailscout]

Prometheus,

Perhaps this thread was created with pagans in mind, but since Christianity also had ritual nudity (ie baptism)at the early stages of its history, I thought it would be helpful to look for commonality.

You make a very interesting observation about the greater freedom of expression in a small group, including a greater sense of comfort with nudity.

A friend of mine was once a member of a Christian sect that would not let their congregations get much larger than 50 or 60 individuals. At that point, they would amicably split and form two new congregations. I am beginning to see the benefits of a more intimate sized assembly of people.

On a secular note, I bonded better with people at a small nudist campground than I did at the larger more anonymous resorts. I think the same principle holds whether you are Christian, pagan or secular.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
. . . . since Christianity also had ritual nudity (ie baptism)at the early stages of its history. . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Strange as it seems in the US, there are some remnants of ancient Christian tradition that still baptize believers of all ages in the nude. For instance there are extremely conservative sects in Russia that do this.

But Trailscout's point is well taken. Most people today don't know it, but nude baptisms were common for several hundred years after the beginning of Christianity.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
C.S. Lewis, one of Christianity's greatest thinkers in the past century, had a lot of positive things to say about nudity in his novel Perelandra, but few of the Christians who have been inspired by his books of faith have ever read his persuasive pro-nudity statements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By coincidence I just reread Perelandra and its predecessor Out of the Silent Planet . The inhabitants of Perelandra are nude, except for an intruder who has come for evil purposes. I didn't see the book as an argument for naturism, except by extension: since the need for clothing is an effect of sin, one can argue that when sin is forgiven there is no longer need for clothes.

Some explanation might be useful for those who haven't read this book. Perelandra is the middle book of C.S. Lewis' famous Space Trilogy . He used science fiction as the medium for an epic retelling of the total scope of Biblical theology. My own opinion is that reading this triology is the fastest and most pleasant way to understand what the Bible is all about.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prometheus:
Religious practices, especially those not dictated by sacred texts, are inevitably influenced by society. With our society's current negative attitudes toward nudity, it would be difficult to convince an entire group the size of a Christian congregation to practice ritual nudity. However, most Pagans practice alone or in small groups. It is much easier to promote ritual nudity in groups of that size. However, I can't help wondering if skyclad ceremonies will become less common if/when Pagan groups grow larger. On the other hand, maybe Pagans will avoid creating large congregations and we will never find out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very good points.

I don't know if large Pagan groups will ever exist. Wiccan circles are typically limited to a dozen or so members, for a number of reasons. Several groups may come together for Sabbat rituals, but most work is done in smaller groups or individually. I would think that tendency may reduce society's impact on the smaller group's (or the individual's) practice.

Now that I think of it, though, I'm not aware of any large gatherings where nudity is practiced. Maybe we have an answer after all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BB,
Vin

[GAR]

Skyclad85 I agree with Vin's 10 july's post.I have been with two Coven's for the past 8years and have belonged to other as a friend of or to some other groups. I know of no covens or groups that use The Great Rite as part of the Iniation. Some groups do use The Great Rite as part of a ritual but not as anorgy. Go with what your heart tells you to do. Only you know what is right for you. It will turn out right for you. Gary BB /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Prometheus]

There is one other tradition that I know of that practices ritual nudity. They are the Jainist monks, primarily in India. Some of them reject clothing as part of their "vow of poverty" so to speak. Some even go naked when they are out in public. Not sure what the Indian authorities think of that. I also have no idea how many of these monks there are.

Read more (http://www.religioustolerance.org/jainism.htm)

[David77]

Here is a web page I made regarding the Jain religion located in this region of USA and elsewhere.

Yes. nudity is part of the Digambora branch of the Jain religion.

The web page is;
http://community.webtv.net/NatureRegard/DRNAYAKSLECTUREON

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prometheus:
There is one other tradition that I know of that practices ritual nudity. They are the Jainist monks, primarily in India.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think some druid groves also practice nude, for much the same reasons as Wiccans. There was a Druid here a few months ago; maybe he can offer some input.

Vin

[Prometheus]

David77: Excellent article! I have to say those monks must be some of the most ascetic in the world.

Vin: I often wondered if there were Druids who practiced skyclad. I guessed there might be, but I don't remember ever hearing about them.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prometheus:
Vin: I often wondered if there were Druids who practiced skyclad. I guessed there might be, but I don't remember ever hearing about them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wish I could remember the username or web address of the fellow who was here. I'll check another email account when I have time and try to find it.

The OBOD website has a section on Naturism and Druidry that has a bit of information. It doesn't link to skyclad groves, but it makes the philosophical connection.

[Vin]

Try this:
Natural Meditation (http://www.naturalmeditation.co.uk)

[Abiqua]

Responding to an earlier post by Vin, in which he asks "I wonder if there are any modern churches that practice nude baptism?", several years ago when I was living in Arizona, some friends of mine were being baptized in a christian denomination of some kind. There was a movement called "the Way" which was active in the area at that time, but I'm not sure whether that was the group involved.

My friends were quite excited about their involvement, but declined to let us attend their baptism, even though it was open to guests - I later learned that the baptism occurred in the nude.

There are also a few small denominations which worship in the nude, so I would imagine that they also practice nude baptism.

Abiqua

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abiqua:
...several years ago when I was living in Arizona, some friends of mine were being baptized in a christian denomination of some kind....

My friends were quite excited about their involvement, but declined to let us attend their baptism, even though it was open to guests - I later learned that the baptism occurred in the nude. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cool! I've heard of The Way. Can't remember where, but it might be interesting to see what exactly they teach.

Thanks,
Vin

[Abiqua]

I'm not certain that it was the Way, and I'm not sure that the Way even exists any more, but for some reason that name comes to mind when I remember their reluctance to invite us to the ritual.

Maybe someone else might be able to provide some information about the Way.

[Jochanaan]

A quick search revealed several Christian organizations calling themselves "The Way." A couple of them are headquarted in the United Kingdom. But perhaps the one the friend is involved in is The Way International, headquartered in New Knoxville, Ohio. This group has been accused of serious errors in Biblical teaching and promiscuity among its leaders. So, since it claims to research the Bible and teach directly from its research, I would be wary of it.

[Abiqua]

The group in Ohio could be the one that was so active at that time, although I'm not sure. Its approach was the make itself the "in" thing to do, to the point of advertising on billboards.

I don't know whether the Way practiced nude baptism, but it was very active at the time when my friends endured the ritual.

Being from a nonchristian background, however, I wasn't tempted to join.

Abiqua

[Trailscout]

I ran into "The Way" when I was in college. Their missionaries were selling Bible training classes at $100 a pop and they were making some pretty crude come-ons to the freshman girls at the dorm.
For all their claims to be biblical, they actually get all their doctrines filtered through their founder's writings.

Nude baptism is very true to the spirit of the early church and we should not belittle it simply because an abberant splinter group performs it.

[mj]

I live just several miles from "The Way" hq's in Ohio. With in the past several years the head of the group, or whatever you care to call it, had to give up his position. It was a big deal around here. I have not done any personal research into the organization but have been told by some who kow former members sex with someone other the spouse was permitted as long as it was "healing". I personally know several former members, who for one reason or another became disillusioned with the group. I will say, on positive note, these are some of the most polite, and considerate individuals I have ever met.

They used to have an annual retreat called "The Rock of Ages." but due to financial reasons it has not been held in several years.

I bet if you were to do so research you might be able to find some info on them....I bet if you were to search theway.com you might find some information on them. Remember doing research is the basis for informed posts.

[Abiqua]

I hope that nobody thought that I was criticizing the Way. All that I really know for sure about it is that the advertising seemed a bit commercial ... even slick ... but that's a matter of taste, not substance.

As for the church that my friends joined, if anything, I'd never criticize nude baptism, or nude worship of almost any sort! (Nudity is often a part of the rituals of my religion, so I'd better not criticize it!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[Prometheus]

I think this page describes the same group discussed above:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/the_way.htm

The following quote makes me think that this is a different church than the one Abiqua's friends belonged to:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Baptism: The Way do not baptize new members with sprinkling of or immersion in water. They regard baptism as being effected by God when the give the gifts, including tongues, to a recently saved member. This is called the "baptism of the spirit."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Abiqua]

Thanks, Prometheus, it looks like that settles the questions as to whether my friends had joined the Way - obviously it was some other group!