Question for US history buffs

[Qikdraw]

Ok, the wifey and I were just talking as we are laying in bed getting ready for sleep. We usually end up talking about odd things, but tonight a few interesting topics came up. These are 'what if' type situations,so there is no right or wrong answer, but I am curious as to what people think. I'm not trying to start any sort of political debate, so keep current politics out of this, this is all old-timey stuff. :)

1) The Pledge of Allegiance, would the Founding Fathers have agreed with it or no?

2) What would the US look like today if the South did secede? Would France or England have taken advantage of two weaker nations, or no? Would the two nations have eventually gotten back together?

So what are your thoughts oh US history buffs?

[alfredr]

Good questions to think about.

The Founding Fathers were a diverse lot. Some would have approved and some would not, and some would object to the inclusion of "under God." It probably wouldn't have gotten passed by them with that.

If the South had succeeded in seceding is a question that will take more thought to answer. Slavery would have eventually been done away with anyway. Two countries instead of one would have changed westward expansion. There could be more independent countries on this continent: California and Texas, maybe, and Mexico and Canada would probably look different also.

Here's a related question to the two you came up with.

Would a regular recitation of a pledge of allegiance to the United States have prevented the South from attempting to secede?

[usmc1]

Ok, the wifey and I were just talking as we are laying in bed getting ready for sleep. We usually end up talking about odd things, but tonight a few interesting topics came up. These are 'what if' type situations,so there is no right or wrong answer, but I am curious as to what people think. I'm not trying to start any sort of political debate, so keep current politics out of this, this is all old-timey stuff. :)

1) The Pledge of Allegiance, would the Founding Fathers have agreed with it or no?

2) What would the US look like today if the South did secede? Would France or England have taken advantage of two weaker nations, or no? Would the two nations have eventually gotten back together?

So what are your thoughts oh US history buffs?

1. Depends on who one regards as the "founding fathers", and which of those one cites.

2. Oh boy, multiple part essay question. Thank goodness, if not for them I might not have gotten my degree.

No telling what we'd look like, but there'd be a hell of a lot fewer Lincoln high-schools, and way more Lee High Schools. Heck damn yeah them Euros would have tried to move in on us, but I'm thinking we're such a contentious and fractious lot, they'd have given us back after a decade or two.

Gotten back together, hah, and who says the North/South divide ever really healed or that we're "together" right now?

[Naturist Mark]

Ok, the wifey and I were just talking as we are laying in bed getting ready for sleep. We usually end up talking about odd things, but tonight a few interesting topics came up. These are 'what if' type situations,so there is no right or wrong answer, but I am curious as to what people think. I'm not trying to start any sort of political debate, so keep current politics out of this, this is all old-timey stuff. :)

1) The Pledge of Allegiance, would the Founding Fathers have agreed with it or no?

2) What would the US look like today if the South did secede? Would France or England have taken advantage of two weaker nations, or no? Would the two nations have eventually gotten back together?

So what are your thoughts oh US history buffs?

1) Probably not ... they were certainly into flags and grasped the importance of symbolism, but the idea of pledging allegiance to a symbol would have struck many of them as deranged idolatry. Of course the second line "and to the republic for which it stands" would have been even more troublesome, since many of the founders (particularly the southern ones) considered the USA to be a union of sovereign states - to them "the republic" would be their individual states.

Oaths and Affirmations were a common part of their life. The idea of pledging allegiance to the state would have been familiar to them, that is what was expected of freemen and militia members. Although having young children do so as part of their school duties without the understanding or capacity to enter into a true oath might seem odd, and rather reminiscent of forced fealty to the king.

2) There is a rich vein of alternate history fiction about the south winning, I can recommend Harry Turtledove's book "The Guns of the South", and the faux documentary movie "CSA: The Confederate States of America (http://www.amazon.com/CSA-Confederate-America-Charles-Frank/dp/B000FZEU0Q/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1220446289&sr=8-1)"

-Mark

[David77]

The pledge of allegience has changed since I was a child as we did not include the words "under God" then.

The words "under God" were added in the Eisenhower administration. Therefore I do not think atheists, Buddhists and Taoists, Naturalistic Humanists, etc. would feel "authentic" pledging these two religious words. Church and state are "supposed" to be seperate in the USA. Also, these words "under God" may bring to question which of the many concepts of (monotheistic) God to which we are pledging our nation.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled.htm

[blindmanin99]

I have no answer for either questions, but I think if there were two separate nations, it would make for an awesome book and movie. There's an idea for someone to work on. It won't be me, but I promise I will read the entire book and watch the movie. Hey, maybe Michael Moore can step up and do the movie?

[Qikdraw]

I have no answer for either questions, but I think if there were two separate nations, it would make for an awesome book and movie. There's an idea for someone to work on. It won't be me, but I promise I will read the entire book and watch the movie. Hey, maybe Michael Moore can step up and do the movie?

Actually, as Mark has stated, Harry Turtledove has done some alternate history books regarding this. I have some of the books, I am missing two of them I think, so I have not read the series yet. I did read his series of an alternate WWII which was really interesting though. :)

[jon71]

A partial answer would be that most of our foundind fathers would be outraged about "under GOD" being in the pledge. They tended to be strong believers in a high wall of seperation. Would they have opposed the pledge altogether? I don't know. Probably would have been o.k. but if it was o.k. how come they didn't think of it or go with it if they did? I don't know.
As for the other part that's harder to guess. I had a friend in college that a poster of the astronaut with the flag on the moon except it was the confederate flag and the caption "what if". I told him that if the south had won we'd probably be getting indoor plumbing about now. I know that's not exactly the second question but it made me remember that.

[NudeAl]

I think that it is a safe bet that the pledge would go against their grain. Certainly the phrase under God would give tem fits. They did not want to closely associate politics with any religion, those were the days huh?

On the second question durring the, "war between the states," the french had invaded Mexico and installed Emperor Maximillian as it's figure head. So hell yeah they would have tried to carve us up like a Thanksgiving turkey. The Brits had all of what is now Canada and they were also still holding portions of the northwest in what is now Washington state. With a weakened America it would make sense to move in on that territory.