Early voting [Archive] - ClothesFree Forum

Fitz1980

10-02-2008, 08:48 AM

http://www.newsweek.com/id/161202/page/2

In an article called "Farewell, Election Day" George Will claims that early voting, which many states are allowing, will lead to an increase in the quantity and decrease in the quality of voters.

Seems to be a pretty elitist mindset of thinking. The problem with election day being on a Tuesday is that for many working people have a hard time getting to work and the polls, epically if they live far from where they work.

One friend of mine used to work at MBNA (the credit card company) said that they could take 4 hours off with pay on election day (that's a half day.) Another worked in the corporate offices of Campbells Soup and they could do the same; notice that's the corporate office people who could do that, not the workers on the factory floor. I work in a bar and if I'm on a double shift (common for restaurant biz people) I'd have to work going to the polls in between the shifts if not for early voting. I'm sure that Wal-Mart isn't giving 4 hours off to the store employees on election day either.

Will calls them sloth voters, but in many places early voters have to go down to the local election office, rather than the closer polling place in order to vote; how are such people lazy sloths?

Will says that making voting "too easy" will just allow apathetic voters, who don't really understand the issues, to vote. I say it's economics and class that prevents many people from voting on election day. Citizens not understanding the issues is what gave us 8 years of Bush.

blindmanin99

10-02-2008, 09:50 AM

What does your topic have to do with Bush? I don't shave mine by the way, just keep it well trimmed. If you are referring to President Bush, then, he is still President and should be addressed or referred as that. I think all this early voting is just a way to scare people into placing their vote early while we're all frightened because of the financial crisis, before they can make a wise decision. The election isn't for another month and I'm sure people don't need that much time to go down and cast their vote. Senator Obama is loving this financial crisis because it is his ticket out of all those promises he made on the campaign trail, to do so much for our country and unfortunately he won't be able to fund those projects and ideas anymore, because of our financial situation. He's, uh, loving it, uh!

blackrebel

10-02-2008, 10:07 AM

Blindman? Not hardly. You are full of insight. THESE people will blame ANYTHING on Bush because in their narrow minds, all was well one day before Bush walked into office and all sh*t hit the fan the day he walked in. Any person who has no bias looks at this mindset and rolls there eyes.

As for the quality of voters, this is too simple for THEM to understand. In example, just yesterday, I was approached 2 times by people who wanted me to register EVEN THO I TOLD THEM THAT I HAD MY REGISTRATION AT HOME, AND READY TO MAIL IN AS A PREVOTER. The reason why they wanted me to register is that they make money for each registration that they turn in. And of course, Blindman, you understand while THOSE PEOPLE dont, that groups like ACORN have been CONVICTED of Voter Fraud time and time again for registering late voters to take them to the polls and tell them who to vote for. Almost all of these people were homeless and mentally ill. No person with any common sense can explain this is legitimate, EXCEPT FOR Obamamaniacs and lefties who one want a left-winger in even if you have to go into the trash to win.

These lefties love to talk about the financial crisis, yet REFUSE to talk about Dodd, Frank, Carter and all of the people who pushed the Community Reinvestment Act, almost all were lefties. I AM a loan officer and we cringed at the CRA. BTW, this is the SECOND CRA crisis, but many dont want to or are too young to remember the late 80s. I do. i had stacks of foreclosures and the interest rates for fixed rates were 12-13%, not the 6-7% that are today's rates. Funny how little people know when the media keeps facts and history from the public, huh?

What does your topic have to do with Bush? I don't shave mine by the way, just keep it well trimmed. If you are referring to President Bush, then, he is still President and should be addressed or referred as that. I think all this early voting is just a way to scare people into placing their vote early while we're all frightened because of the financial crisis, before they can make a wise decision. The election isn't for another month and I'm sure people don't need that much time to go down and cast their vote. Senator Obama is loving this financial crisis because it is his ticket out of all those promises he made on the campaign trail, to do so much for our country and unfortunately he won't be able to fund those projects and ideas anymore, because of our financial situation. He's, uh, loving it, uh!

usmc1

10-02-2008, 10:29 AM

Wow, now I've finally seen it all, and I've been to several county fairs, fifteen goat-ropings, a Polish wedding, a Louisiana shivaree, and watched aunt Sadie try to wash her old yellow Tom-Cat Maximillian before taking him to a pet show, before I got to see this.

Down below, we have the blind leading the overwrought! Or is it vice versa.

jon71

10-02-2008, 12:34 PM

Early voting gives people more opportunity to make it to the polls. Obviously people who have long commutes and/or work really long hours have a harder time getting to vote. Also let's not forget getting kids to and from school and everything else that is indispensible. In the past I'd have liked the idea of a national holiday on election day but I don't think that would work anymore. I work at Wal-mart and we're open for every holiday but Christmas anyway, it wouldn't change anything except for govt. employees. Luckily I work a second shift so I can make it to the polls without difficulty. The only challenge for me is that I want to take my daughter with me as a civics lesson and the window between when she is out of school and when I have to go to work is narrow.

silver_tree

10-02-2008, 12:40 PM

Someone has been listening to talk radio and the tripe it spews.

Making loans in less than fashionable areas did not cause this financial crisis. Deregulation did.

There is nothing wrong with voting early. Not everyone's employer will grant them enough time off to go vote. An individual may have to drive a distance to wait in a line. Voting early means that obligation is done. As we get further along in this election cycle more people make their decisions regarding candidates.

George Will and "quality" of voters. I guess he means those who don't have to punch a timeclock to keep their bills paid. With William F. Buckley gone the only intellectual conservatives have who has regular TV exposure is George Will. I will grant that the late Mr. Buckley was a lot more entertaining!

Qikdraw

10-02-2008, 01:10 PM

NudeAl

10-02-2008, 07:40 PM

You bet this is an elitist opinion. What difference does it make when you vote as long as you vote what are they afraid of makes you wonder maybe we don't all deserve to vote? I think that is what was meant but not stated. I vote early I did so last week I have done so for 23 years. I just think someone is afraid that the change subverts the funky voting machines that may have swayed the last election.

lordshipmayhem

10-02-2008, 08:26 PM

What difference does it make when you vote as long as you vote

Hear, hear!!

I have had relatives fight - and die - for my rights, including my right to vote. It's everyone's right to vote: it's everyone's duty to do so in as informed a manner as possible, intelligently and (hopefully) with as little emotion swaying your vote as possible.

As Gregory Peck put it in a rather poorly worded live Public Service Announcement many years ago, "Today is election day. It is every American's duty to vote. So vote soon, and vote often!" :laugh:

alfredr

10-03-2008, 04:07 AM

The saying about Richard J. Daley's Chicago machine was, "Vote early and often." I can't help but think that when I hear about early voting. Not saying that multiple voting can happen, just the irony that now you can vote early.

Personally I want to watch the whole campaign to play out before I vote. But I do vote. The more voters the better for democracy.

Fitz1980

10-03-2008, 07:17 AM

I think all this early voting is just a way to scare people into placing their vote early while we're all frightened because of the financial crisis, before they can make a wise decision. The election isn't for another month and I'm sure people don't need that much time to go down and cast their vote. Senator Obama is loving this financial crisis because it is his ticket out of all those promises he made on the campaign trail, to do so much for our country and unfortunately he won't be able to fund those projects and ideas anymore, because of our financial situation.

Who's talking about voting now? Early voting is in like the 4 or 5 days before the election, not tomorrow.

Boreas

10-03-2008, 07:38 AM

This is a very bizarre thread for a Canadian to read. We get registered to vote through Elections Canada, which is a Federal government agency. Everyone in the country gets registered the same way. In fact, we get registered when we submit our federal taxes for federal elections, and with the provincial taxes for provincial elections. It totally simplified things when they started doing this. If for some reason you are not on the voter list, you can go to an Elections Canada office to register. Easy peasy.

As for advance polls, what is the issue with that? Ours open today. We can vote today, Saturday and Monday. Those votes will not be counted until the rest are counted on election day, Oct 14. Advance polls make it so that everyone has the opportunity to vote. If you are on vacation or working on the day of the election, then it gives you extra time. I believe we are also supposed to be given time from the employer to vote.

http://www.elections.ca/home.asp

Fitz1980

10-03-2008, 08:19 AM

Some states mandate that employers give time off to vote. It's usually about 2 hours that can come at the beginning or the end of a shift. Some states mandate that it must be with pay, others mandate that they grant the time off but not with pay. Some states don't mandate it at all.

ki4kxq

10-03-2008, 08:32 AM

Every eligible US citizen should be afforded the right to vote without being harrassed. I also have no problem with early voting if it is done correctly. What I have a problem with is some of these initiatives that make it nearly impossible to make sure someone is truly eligible to vote. Things like same day registration are not good policy.

If you truly care about the issues, and you truly want to be a patriotic citizen and vote, more power to you. However, nobody said that voting should be without some sort of effort. If your employer doesn't pay you to take the day or some hours off. Oh well, it's once every couple of years, 4 for Presidential elections. That's not too much to ask. Polling places should absolutely require photo ID, there is no excuse not to unless you are trying to get non citizens and others who are ineligible to vote. It's ridiculous to say that having ID is too much trouble, if it's too much trouble to prove who you are, it's certainly too much trouble to vote, period.

Of course we'll get the same whiny tripe about the elderly and poor not being able to get ID, and that working folks can't go get ID, without mentioning of course that working folks must have state or federal picture ID to get a job in the first place. Unless of course you are here illegally. Hmmm, I wonder if there is a connection in those two things.

usmc1

10-03-2008, 08:34 AM

Who's talking about voting now? Early voting is in like the 4 or 5 days before the election, not tomorrow.
Depends on your locality and/or state. Early voting has begun for some. Also absentee and vote-by-mail has started for some.

Fitz1980

10-03-2008, 10:49 AM

Every eligible US citizen should be afforded the right to vote without being harrassed. I also have no problem with early voting if it is done correctly. What I have a problem with is some of these initiatives that make it nearly impossible to make sure someone is truly eligible to vote. Things like same day registration are not good policy.

It's ridiculous to say that having ID is too much trouble, if it's too much trouble to prove who you are, it's certainly too much trouble to vote, period.

Exactly who was talking about same day registration, and ID checks? I know that I certainly wasn't.

If you truly care about the issues, and you truly want to be a patriotic citizen and vote, more power to you. However, nobody said that voting should be without some sort of effort. If your employer doesn't pay you to take the day or some hours off.

Once again that works fine in an office environment where if you don't show up, or take a personal day your work just doesn't get done that day and you make it up tomorrow, but in a service business it doesn't work like that. If I normally work a double at the bar on Tuesday I can't get to the polling place that day. Sure I could request a day off but if everyone requests off that day because they want to vote some people won't get it off because they need people working in the restaurant that day. What is the problem with me going to the election office the day before and casting my vote that day? That certainly seems like effort on my part. It's not like anyone is asking to to vote online or by phone.

Naturist Mark

10-03-2008, 07:20 PM

<strong>Voters Disappearing from Rolls in Secret Purges Underway In At Least 19 States</strong><blockquote><br>At least <a href="http://www.uspirg.org/newsroom/voting/voting-news/washington-d.c.-nineteen-states-not-enforcing-federal-laws-on-voter-lists">19 states are disregarding a federal law</a> banning systematic voter purges within 90 days of a federal election. According to the U.S. Public Interest Research Group, massive purges of registered voters have occurred recently in Alabama, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas and Washington. </p><p>In a <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6453">rare display of interest in this issue by the mainstream media</a>, the CBS Evening News recently ran a <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/30/eveningnews/main4490682.shtml%20">two-minute segment</a> about the illegal voter purges and also noted some of the findings from a new study by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice. <a href="http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/voter_purges">The Brennan Center study</a> documents several secret purges conducted this year, including 10,000 voters knocked off the rolls in Mississippi and another 21,000 purged in Louisiana, including areas hit hard by recent hurricanes. The purges happen in secret with no public accountability, and voters are not informed of their removal from the rolls, often finding out when they show up at the polls and are denied an official ballot. CBS interviewed an elderly New Jersey voter whose name was suddenly removed from the registration rolls after 30 years. While that voter's status was reinstated successfully, CBS notes that "come Election Day, don't count on thousands of others being as fortunate." </p><p>Voters can check their registration status and confirm their polling place <a href="http://www.votersunite.org/info/RegInfo.asp">here</a> and <a href="http://www.canivote.org/">here</a>. </p>RFK Jr (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-brendan-demelle/unearthed-the-news-withou_b_131683.html)</blockquote>

Qikdraw

10-04-2008, 12:11 AM

jon71

10-04-2008, 02:25 AM

Why is one party subverting democracy?[/QUOTE]

I guess at heart Republican's just aren't crazy about democracy. I see the usual attempt to blame a Republican flaw, failure, or crime on Democrats (like trying to blame their deregulation of Fannie and Freddy on Dems. and blame Dem.s for the first bailed not passing when 66 Dem.s voted no and 133 Rep.s did). Mississippi and Louisiana are heavily Republican states. The entire list of 19 seems to range from very Democratic New. Jersey to very Republican Texas. This is the wrong thing to do and I hope it stops completely. To give the partisan answer Democrats do the best the higher turnout is and Republicans do better with less turnout. Let me explain in numbers. Typical turnout in a presidential year is 55% (approx). Let's look at a completely bellweather district, one that's always decided by a razor thin margin. If I find out turnout is at or above 60% I know the Democrat won without even asking. If turnout is at or below 50% it was a Republican victory. The same tends to be true on ballot issues. Purging voters help Rep.s and hurts Dem.s and it's wrong regardless.

Boreas

10-04-2008, 08:48 AM

Voters Disappearing from Rolls in Secret Purges Underway In At Least 19 States

And this from the country that prides itself on being a beacon of democracy?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Very puzzling. :surprised:

ki4kxq

10-04-2008, 09:18 AM

Fitz1980

10-04-2008, 10:27 AM

Naturist Mark

10-04-2008, 11:11 AM

Mark, help me out here. It has seemed to me that you think it's the republicans that are trying to wipe democratic voters off the rolls. However, in the article you just mentioned, most of the states accused of doing secret purging of the voter registration lists are run by democratic administrations. That means, they more than likely have a democrat running the Secretary of State office. So, are you trying to tell us that dems are doing as much or more voter tampering as you claim republicans are doing? Just wondering.

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has issued orders banning the purges of voter rolls over the last two months, yet it continues to happen. Ohio has a 18 year legacy of Republican domination of the so-called "bipartisan" elections commission in each county. Brunner was able to clean house in Cuyahoga County (Cleveland and suburbs) due to gross incompetence and clear criminal activity, but much of the rest of the State electoral system is still being run on the local level by the old regime that kept the Republican minority in power. State control over county election commissions varies across the country.

-Mark

Qikdraw

10-04-2008, 01:44 PM

And this from the country that prides itself on being a beacon of democracy?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Very puzzling. :surprised:

It is isn't it?

usmc1

10-04-2008, 02:03 PM

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has issued orders banning the purges of voter rolls over the last two months, yet it continues to happen. Ohio has a 18 year legacy of Republican domination of the so-called "bipartisan" elections commission in each county. Brunner was able to clean house in Cuyahoga County (Cleveland and suburbs) due to gross incompetence and clear criminal activity, but much of the rest of the State electoral system is still being run on the local level by the old regime that kept the Republican minority in power. State control over county election commissions varies across the country.

-Mark

The chief elections official of the great state of Texas is appointed by the governor (currently Republican) and confirmed by the senate (currently Republican majority). And, we will have many Hispanics in the Valley and South Texas who will encounter problems, as will African American voters in East Texas, Houston and Dallas.

We have had massive new-voter registration numbers in Texas and expect to swing a number of counties into the blue, come November despite the usual Republican chicanery.

Noriega's gap with Cornyn, is a point or two away from margin of error and if we can get young, first-time Obama supporters excited about the bottom of the ticket, we could be sending a Democrat to the Senate. At the very least we will protect existing house seats, maybe pick up two or three more and may swing the state legislature back to blue, allowing us to undo the redistricting harm perpetrated by DeLay.

There will be some interesting confrontations at the polls, hence our drive to get as many early and by-mail ballots as is possible completed prior to election day. Those votes are accountable.

Boreas

10-04-2008, 02:22 PM

It is isn't it?

Very! shocked

Qikdraw

10-04-2008, 03:36 PM

Qikdraw

10-04-2008, 05:10 PM

Fake pollsters' scare tactics target Obama (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/03/uselections2008.barackobama1)

Barack Obama's campaign for the White House is receiving increasing complaints about scam pollsters involved in dirty tricks operations to discredit the Democratic candidate.

Victims claim the fake pollsters work insinuations into their questions, designed to damage Obama. Those targeted in swing states such as Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania include Jews, Christian evangelicals, Catholics and Latinos.

One of those to protest, Debbie Minden, who lives in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood, Squirrel Hill, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, told the Guardian that the pollster had begun by asking her the usual questions about her background and who she would vote for.

But the pollster went on to ask Minden, who is Jewish, how she would vote if she knew that Obama was supported by Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that runs Gaza and was responsible for most of the suicide bombings against Israel. "It is scare tactics. It is terribly underhand," she said.

Push-polling, a vile tactic.

blindmanin99

10-09-2008, 11:26 AM

Fitz1980

10-09-2008, 11:37 AM

Obama was NEVER friends with Louis Farakhan nor did he ever court his support.

jon71

10-09-2008, 12:33 PM

Unlike McCain and his courting of Hagee for example, lol.

Qikdraw

10-09-2008, 12:48 PM

Well, I figured I'd spark up some good conversation here.

Uh oh! :D

Since my previous post, I heard something on the news about ACORN being charged with fraud, regarding voting practices. Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't get all the details of the story, but I'm sure someone here will fill me in.

From an article I read yesterday, and I'm going from memory here so I may be wrong on some details, an ACORN office in Nevada was raided, and the claim is voter registration fraud. The article I read talked to acorn members who said they do not understand why this happened. Yes they had some voter registrars commit fraud, but they were fired and that information sent to the state. In total apparently around 15 former workers information were sent to the state. According to acorn the state never followed up on any of it, nor did they after acorn repeatedly asked them about it. They had the documentation to prove these former workers committed fraud and the state was sitting on its butt. Then out of the blue a raid comes along. How much of that is true, I don't know, however we do live in a country that claims its innocent until proven guilty.

I guess it's clear that I support Sen. McCain for president. I don't think he's the best choice. I don't even think the best choice is running for president. It sure isn't Sen. Obama. His associations with Rev. Wright, William Ayers, Louis Farakhan (spelling?), and Fr. Pfleger are enough to keep me away from him. Not to mention his attitudes towards our troops (major point).

Don't McCain's associations bother you? Keating, Hagee, a group associated with the Contras, lobbyists who have been responsible for our current mess and are still lobbying McCain on behave of their companies and clients.

Take a look at this for more of McCain's associations that are troublesome.

<iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27092691#27092691" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Also McCain rated a 'D' from the IAVA veterans group for his voting habits. McCain has continually voted against vets. His walk does not match his talk. He was against the latest GI bill, that had broad support from both parties. McCain was the ONLY senator to not vote on it at all.

I can't trust a guy who was friends with these people and then denounce them or his relations with them, now that he's running for president. Who else is out there that we don't know about? Who can we trust him to appoint as his cabinet members and advisors?

I can't trust a guy who doesn't back away from bad statements people make. Who else will be running American besides McCain? So far his lobbyists advisors have been creating McCain's platform, that worries me. After 25 plus years in office he's been calling himself a 'deregulator', as recently as march of this year, now he claims he is going to regulate. I just do not buy that.

Plus, as Commander in Chief (or wannabe), you never say anything bad or negative about your troops, never! These are all volunteers, for one reason or another, they all volunteered to fight and defend their country. No one signed a contract that said "well, it depends on what we have to do".

You'll have to provide an example, even if its from your own memory, on what you think he said. While Obama has attacked policy, I do not think he has ever attacked the troops.

I think there is still something out there that we don't about Sen. Obama yet, and that's why they want to get people to vote early, before it's discovered. That's just my thoughts, thoughts. Don't ask me to support it with any facts, because I don't have any. I don't have a crystal ball either, but the "uhs" and stuttering make me a little nervous about his intentions. I predicted long ago about Britney Spears fall and rise back to fame and glory. Laugh, that was just a joke..)

Obama's 'uhs' bother me too, but I think that is him trying to form an answer. We all have done it, but none of us are on the stage to be president, I believe it is just him trying to be as articulate in his answers as possible.

The early voting is a good thing. I think voting should be held over a couple of days to give everybody a chance to vote. I don't like this voting that only lasts for a few hours and makes it so not everybody gets a chance to vote. One of the continueing problems is not enough voting machines in some places, this means lines are formed up and some people have to leave to go to work. Early voting allows more people to vote. I don't think this is a bad thing at all.

One other thing about McCain that really bothers me is his insistance that 'he knows how to catch Bin Laden', he's been saying this for months. If he is really all about 'country first' why hasn't he told this to the Bush administration so we can get him? How many American lives have been lost because McCain has held onto this information?

usmc1

10-09-2008, 04:03 PM

Well, I figured I'd spark up some good conversation here. Since my previous post, I heard something on the news about ACORN being charged with fraud, regarding voting practices. Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't get all the details of the story, but I'm sure someone here will fill me in.

Acorn is not a monolith, it has chapters all over the cpuntry. As I understand it, one chapter in CO is suspected of fraudulent voter registration activities. We'll see.

I guess it's clear that I support Sen. McCain for president. I don't think he's the best choice. I don't even think the best choice is running for president. It sure isn't Sen. Obama. His associations with Rev. Wright, William Ayers, Louis Farakhan (spelling?), and Fr. Pfleger are enough to keep me away from him.That's fine your choice, many things influence different people different ways. It is unfortunate that you allow yourself to be influenced by innuendo, lies and misrepresentations. But, for the nonce...you speak of Obama's relationships with these people...precisely what are those relationships?

Not to mention his attitudes towards our troops (major point). I can't trust a guy who was friends with these people and then denounce them or his relations with them, now that he's running for president. Who else is out there that we don't know about? Who can we trust him to appoint as his cabinet members and advisors? Plus, as Commander in Chief (or wannabe), you never say anything bad or negative about your troops, never! These are all volunteers, for one reason or another, they all volunteered to fight and defend their country. No one signed a contract that said "well, it depends on what we have to do".And his attitude about our troops is "what"? The facts are very,very simple. Often in combat lines are crossed, rules are broken, and innocent people are harmed. When our great nation bombs or attacks with drones innocent civilians, and lies about it and attempts cover ups it is not attacking the troops to decry and deplore such. Had we a real commander in chief in the present, we would not be facing this!

Obama's truth about Afghanistan is one of the shining scintillating beckons of honesty in this campaign. You should acquaint yourself with the facts, before mouthing rehased MCain negatives.

I think there is still something out there that we don't about Sen. Obama yet, and that's why they want to get people to vote early, before it's discovered. That's just my thoughts, thoughts. Don't ask me to support it with any facts, because I don't have any. I don't have a crystal ball either, but the "uhs" and stuttering make me a little nervous about his intentions. I predicted long ago about Britney Spears fall and rise back to fame and glory. Laugh, that was just a joke.

Sorry charley, it is not a joking matter. But, you want to play the Manchurian Candidate game, lets. I can get down with that straight away,

Did you know McCain's fellow POWs called him "songbird" hhhhmmmm?, who gets called "songbird" in prison? Did you know his former warden speaks highly of him...a dirty stinking, viet cong, commie toturer that may have been brainwashing him for this very moment. What do we know of his secret deals with those commies. I bet the Chi-coms were in on it, I mean he was a high-profile POW. What a future asset. I think John McCain has a lot of secrets, and things to answer for, that we don't know. After all, when Obama was a little boy of 8, and Ayers was being a bad person, John McCain was an adult and in the clutches of those wiley commie brainwashers preparing him to front for the worldwide depression and chi-com takeover of the world.

That brainwashing stuff could account for his weird disjointed behavior and really nasty temper tantrums and outbursts of rage.

Booo!

Naturist Mark

10-09-2008, 11:59 PM

The accusations against ACORN are ridiculous in the extreme, and are nothing less than the Big Lie technique used to obfuscate voter disenfranchisement.

Just think this through people. How exactly is ACORN supposed to be committing fraud? By turning in bogus voter registrations?

Huh?

How is that supposed to help a candidate? Think it through.

How many 'fake voters' are going to risk prison by showing up in more than one precinct to cast an extra vote?

How many felons (in the very few places they are not allowed to vote) will risk going back to prison just to vote?

How many are going to claim to be "mickey mouse" or "Clark Kent" in order to cast one more vote? Absurd. The risk is too high and the gain is too minuscule for it to be worthwhile. Sorry, election fraud is committed on a much grander scale than by having actual individuals show up to make individual ineligible votes.

No, what is happening with ACORN is that some people fill out bogus voter registrations not in order to vote illegally, but in order to "f" with ACORN, or employees will turn in bogus registrations in order to make it look that they are performing. In both cases the fraud is being committed against ACORN, and is not going to result in illegal votes.

In the cases being shouted about in the media - Rush Limbaugh features an ACORN story every single day - the vast majority of the questionable registration requests were flagged as suspect by ACORN itself. ACORN goes to extreme lengths to verify and double check the registrations it gathers - after all bogus registrations are FRAUD AGAINST ACORN - and fully informs the elections boards of its findings.

So just remember, they are counting on you being an idiot without critical reasoning skills - every time you hear a story about the evil ACORN trying to steal the election by mobilizing thousands and millions of phantom voters - you are being told a illogical fairy tale designed to distract you from the real election theft being orchestrated in plain sight. (Hint ... purging voter registration is a federal crime during the 90 days before an election, yet it is happening right now in Alabama, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas, Washington and probably elsewhere too.)

The Myth Of Voter Fraud (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/28/AR2007032801969.html)

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

NudeAl

10-10-2008, 07:58 PM

Thanks for posting that Mark.

I had been hearing about that and I was worried but now I just wish the main stream media would dig into it and let the truth be known. I had also heard something about disappearing voters. In other words that they have people going about and dis-enrolling voters basically they find a reason to say nope that guy is a phony he can't vote, due to something like a homeowner whose house was foreclosed on and is no longer living at that address. Only thing is none of these disenfranchised voters knows a thing about this until they go to vote. Then if the guy is really persistant and remember how crowded it can be at polling places he can file to vote but the same person who challenged his original vote will likely do the same thing once the voter leaves the polling station.

Naturist Mark

10-10-2008, 08:22 PM

Whenever the media gives credence to the attacks against ACORN for alleged registration fraud, they are counting on us to be unthinking dolts. There is no way for ACORN to benefit from fraudulent registrations, those incidents are fraud against ACORN. Now government officials are getting into the act, even though it is totally unsupportable and won't survive its first contact with a judge. The following press release is from ACORN in Clark County,Nevada, following a staged 'raid' on their headquarters by the NV Secretary of State's office:
<blockquote>ACORN Statement: Nevada Secretary of State 'Stunt' Serves No Useful Purpose

Last update: 8:56 p.m. EDT Oct. 7, 2008
WASHINGTON, Oct 07, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- On Oct. 7, ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) interim Chief Organizer Bertha Lewis issued the following statement in response to the raid of ACORN's office in Las Vegas:

"Over the past year, ACORN has worked hard to help over 80,000 people in Clark County register to vote. As part of our nonpartisan voter registration program, we have reviewed all the applications submitted by our canvassers. When we have identified suspicious applications, we have separated them out and flagged them for election officials. We have zero tolerance for fraudulent registrations. We immediately dismiss employees we suspect of submitting fraudulent registrations.

For the past 10 months, any time ACORN has identified a potentially fraudulent application, we turn that application into election officials separately and offer to provide election officials with the information they would need to pursue an investigation or prosecution of the individual.

Election officials routinely ignored this information and failed to act. In early July, ACORN asked to meet with election officials to express our concerns that they were not acting on information ACORN had presented to them. ACORN met with Clark County elections officials and a representative of the Secretary of State on July 17th. ACORN pleaded with them to take our concerns about fraudulent applications seriously. One week later, elections officials asked us to provide them with a second copy of what we had previously provided to them. ACORN responded by giving election officials copies of 46 "problem application packages," which involved 33 former canvassers.

On September 23, ACORN had received a subpoena dated September 19th requesting information on 15 employees, all of whom had been included in the packages we had previously submitted to election officials. ACORN provided our personnel records on these 15 employees on September 29.

Today's raid by the Secretary of State's Office is a stunt that serves no useful purpose other than discredit our work registering Nevadans and distracting us from the important work ahead of getting every eligible voter to the polls."
ACORN is the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families, with over 400,000 member families across the country. Since 1970, *ACORN* has taken action and won victories on such issues as better housing, living wages for low-wage workers, more investment in our communities, and better public schools.
SOURCE Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN)

Copyright (C) 2008 PR Newswire. All rights reserved End of Story</blockquote>

Now here is the bizarre part - Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller is a Democrat. No party has a monopoly on idiots.

-Mark

Naturist Mark

10-11-2008, 09:10 AM

Remember - they are counting on you to be too stupid to understand that the charges of "fraud" against ACORN are nonsensical. Here's the latest from BradBlog:

<div class="BloggedBy">Blogged by <strong><a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?author=3" title="Posts by Brad Friedman">Brad Friedman</a></strong> on 10/9/2008 9:45AM  </div><div class="ItemHeadline"><a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6488">GOP's ACORN 'Voter Fraud' Scam Rolls Out in MO...Right on Schedule...</a></div><div id="post-6488"><p><img src="http://www.BradBlog.com/Images/ACORN_NevadaRaid_100708_Missouri.jpg" align="right" border="0" vspace="3" hspace="6">Remember yesterday when <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6487">we told you about</a> the transcript of the <i>Fox & Friends</i> show yesterday morning, discussing the <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6480">bogus raid of an ACORN office</a> in Las Vegas, and then implying "more" ACORN "voter fraud" occurring in Missouri? The RNC actually issued that transcript <i>verbatim</i> as <a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/republican-national-committee-acorn-/story.aspx?guid=%7B1424B9DD-1977-493F-B9CD-4EC2356B9119%7D&dist=hppr">an official RNC press release</a>. Remember when we told you that, given the hints within the RNC/FNC report that swing state MO was likely next on the RNC/FNC/FBI hit-list?</p><p>Well, late last night, <a href="http://apnews.excite.com/article/20081009/D93MKOS80.html">AP delivered right on schedule</a>, open their story with "Officials in Missouri...are sifting through possibly hundreds of questionable or duplicate voter-registration forms submitted by an advocacy group that has been accused of election fraud in other states."</p><p>The report quotes GOP tool & Jackson County (Kansas City), MO election director, Charlene Davis complaining they are "bogged down" with registrations right now, and insinuating that it's ACORN causing the problem for them. </p><p>Of course, as with the pageant staged in Las Vegas, the Missouri action is also a scam. Read a little closer into the AP article, and you'll see the tell-tale signs of this October "Surprise" joke rather clearly...</p><p>"I don't even know the entire scope of it because registrations are coming in so heavy," Davis said. "We have identified about 100 duplicates, and probably 280 addresses that don't exist, people who have driver's license numbers that won't verify or Social Security numbers that won't verify. Some have no address at all."<br>...<br>Jess Ordower, Midwest director of ACORN, said his group hasn't done any registrations in Kansas City since late August. He said he was told three weeks ago by election officials that there were only about 135 questionable cards - 85 of them duplicates.<p>"They keep telling different people different things," he said. "They gave us a list of 130, then told someone else it was 1,000."</p><p>FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton said the agency has been in contact with elections officials about potential voter fraud and plans to investigate.</p></div><p>So Davis --- who just happened to have played a key role in the recent arrest of a Missouri election integrity advocate for <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6252">committing the crime of trying to legally cast his vote</a> --- doesn't "even know the scope of it", but is happy to suggest ACORN has done something amiss. That, even as ACORN <i>hasn't done any registrations in Kansas City since August.</i> (Not to mention the fact that, as we've pointed out now several days in a row, ACORN verifies every single registration form, and when they can't, they flag them as potentially fraudulent before turning them into officials, <i>as they are required by law!</i>)</p><p>And now, the FBI will be investigating. Raid should be coming soon, no doubt. Nope, not a scam at all.</p><p>ACORN's Midwest director Ordower is not surprised by this wholly stated October "Surprise", and neither are we. We've been <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/ACVR">reporting on its rollout</a> for about 4 years. It was only a matter of time before it showed up again in our old home state of MO --- not coincidentally, the home state of the GOP's "voter fraud" cappo, <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/ACVR">Thor Hearne</a>.</p><div class="media">"It's par for the course," [Ordower] said. "When you're doing more registrations than anyone else in the country, some don't want low-income people being empowered to vote. There are pretty targeted attacks on us, but we're proud to be out there doing the patriotic thing getting people registered to vote."<p>Republicans are among ACORN's loudest critics. At a campaign stop in Bethlehem, Pa., supporters of John McCain interrupted his remarks Wednesday by shouting, "No more ACORN."</p></div><p>We're sure McCain had no objections to the 'spontaneous outbursts' of his 'supporters'.</p><p>We're also sure that McCain didn't bother to straighten them out, because why start fighting for democracy now? He already spent five years in a prison trying to defend it, so his work must be done.</p><p>The GOP is in absolute --- and shameless --- ruin.</p><blockquote><p><i>Previously...</i><br><b>10/7/08:</b> <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6480">GOP's ACORN 'Voter Fraud' Lie Ramped Up; State Police Raid ACORN Office in Vegas</a><br><b>10/8/08:</b> <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6487">RNC Issues Fox 'News' Transcript on ACORN 'Voter Fraud' as Press Release</a></p></blockquote><a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

usmc1

10-12-2008, 04:57 AM

<o:p></o:p>
Dear USMC1,

This could be a great election for American Democracy, with greater participation than we've seen perhaps ever. But we need to make sure that eligible voters who want to cast a ballot can do so. <o:p></o:p>
Already, the Right has begun targeting states in which they will challenge the eligibility of voters who show up to the polls. Burdensome voter ID laws threaten to keep some voters from casting a regular ballot, and confusion caused by poorly trained state and county election staff has potentially led to tens of thousands of voters being wrongly purged from voter rolls and could result in more problems on Election Day.

Don't forget the last-minute attempts at voter intimidation and disinformation that we are almost sure to see as Election Day looms closer. The Right has already given us a sneak peak of how low they're willing to with reports last month that they would challenge the eligibility of Michigan voters who had their homes foreclosed on due to the housing crisis -- [I]eligible voters who have been among the hardest hit by the struggling economy.

As part of our Election Protection efforts, People For the American Way Foundation wants to offer you a few ways you can help protect voters' rights and make the election run more smoothly.

1. VOTE EARLY if you can, and encourage your friends and family to do the same.<o:p></o:p>
Early voting has already started in many states. USA Today reported that up to a third of the electorate this year could cast their ballot before November 4. If you have the opportunity to vote early in your state, either in person or via mail (or a "no excuse" absentee ballot), People For the American Way Foundation urges you to take it. You can find out about early and absentee voting in your state at Vote411.org (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=xAv7DQ8COuugCIopnB9LqA..) sponsored by the League of Women Voters Education Fund.

<o:p></o:p>
2. Help distribute voter education materials. <o:p></o:p>
Palm cards: We're thrilled to announce that we've partnered with the SEIU to produce educational voter ID palm cards that inform voters of what they need when they show up to cast their ballots. They are state specific and are available for the following states (based on where there are bad voter ID laws and where we expect to see aggressive voter suppression efforts): AZ, CA, CO, DC, FL, GA, IN, KS, MI, MO, NC, OH, PA, TX and VA. If you live in one of these states, you can place an order here (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=wnZMS7abGR5f946IqGnFxg..) for palm cards to distribute to voters. (Remember, certain communities are particularly impacted by voter ID laws and voter suppression efforts, among them, the poor, minority voters, the elderly and students.)

Toolkits and flyers: Also available are voter ID toolkits and two-page flyers for the same states as we have palm cards for. People For the American Way Foundation has created these in collaboration with the NEA, SEIU and other state and local partners. We've been getting them to election officials and allies as a resource in training poll workers and people doing voter protection work. These materials are available for you to download and print here (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=qxErJULhz6SQv-DcVFpzAg..).

<o:p></o:p>
3. Contribute. (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=aDA0Jxu_Ql5hRyQop1ZCUg..) There's only 26 days until Election Day and we need your help to make sure that every eligible voter is able to cast a vote that counts. That's 26 days for us to educate as many voters as we can. Please make a tax-deductible gift today (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=Es3fq7uYS206IKuyRxrPDA..) to People For the American Way Foundation's nonpartisan Election Protection efforts, including the widespread distribution of the materials mentioned above.

Thank you for your ongoing support for fair elections and our work to protect the vote.

-- People For the American Way Foundation

People For the American Way Foundation is a founding member of the Election Protection Coalition, a coalition which includes civil rights groups such as the NAACP, the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law and many other national, state and local organizations. <o:p></o:p>

Naturist Mark

10-12-2008, 07:08 AM

<img src="http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/BlueHorde/skrat-19385.jpg" align="left" border="0" vspace="3" hspace="6">Remember folks - they are counting on you being too stupid to understand! Everytime the GOP and its mass media lackeys run their fear mongering illogical stories about ACORN committing registration fraud they are depending on you to be too moronic to understand that invalid registrations are fraud against ACORN, not the opposite. The real aim is to discourage new voters and justify massive purges of valid voter registrations.

Why the GOP Is Nuts About ACORN (http://www.alternet.org/democracy/102557/why_the_gop_is_nuts_about_acorn/)

Illegal Voter Purges Could Cause Florida-like Presidential Recounts (http://www.alternet.org/democracy/102374/voter_purges_could_cause_florida-like_presidential_recounts/?page=entire)

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

Naturist Mark

10-12-2008, 08:47 PM

Tom Matzzie: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-matzzie/how-mccain-will-steal-the_b_133989.html)<blockquote>The conservative movement is lining up a serious of story elements. They are:

• Obama was a community organizer.
• ACORN, a group that does community organizing, has committed voter fraud.
• Obama is from Chicago.
• You know what happens in elections in Chicago. Remember the 1960 election.

The story is half true and half lies. As we all know, Barack Obama is from Chicago and was a community organizer. Those are the only true parts of the conservative story. But the other two facts are myths: the 1960 election wasn't stolen (says the conclusion of recounts and investigations in 1960 and numerous academic studies since). And, ACORN has not committed voter fraud. Not one bit.

The facts about ACORN are worth getting out. ACORN is an organization that, among other things, registers low-income people to vote. One of the ways they do this is to hire door-to-door canvassers from the neighborhoods they are working in. This sort of work is tightly regulated. So, when one of the thousands of people they give jobs to doesn't do their work right and brings back bogus or phony voter registration cards, the law REQUIRES that ACORN turn the forms in to the voter registration office. The law, rightly, doesn't want anybody throwing out voter registration forms for any reason.

But ACORN goes a step farther. They have people assigned to do quality control on all the cards--calling people on the forms after they fill them out. When they find bad information on the cards they attach a cover sheet to the card but, as mentioned above, they turn in the cards as required by law. The effect is that a few bad canvassers or a poorly run office will mean that bad cards are submitted as part of the normal process. But ACORN has done everything possible to make sure voting officials know to check the forms.

The sad fact is that in at least one state--Nevada--the voting officials disregarded ACORN's cover sheets flagging the voter registration forms. That should have never happened. The resulting blowup was a scandal in search of a scandal.

The stunning con of this whole thing is the assumption that bad voter registration cards being submitted will lead to vote fraud. If somebody submits a card for Mickey Mouse it isn't like Mr. Mouse is going to show up to vote. There is no voter fraud if nobody votes.

But the big story here is what the Right is doing. Their attacks on ACORN open up the door for two things.

First, the ACORN myth allows the Republicans to do more purging of the voter rolls--the process of removing people from the voter rolls because of arbitrary anomalies in the voter registration databases. Richard L Hasen, author of the Election Law Blog and a distinguished law professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles recently wrote, "Careless purging--driven by unsubstantiated fears about voter fraud--can lead to many eligible voters being incorrectly removed from the polls." Already in Ohio the Republican Party is pushing for more purging and they found a federal judge who agreed citing ACORN's activities.

Second, in the event that campaigning, purging and intimidating voters doesn't work, the Right is creating a myth like they did in 1960. They are creating the myth of a stolen election. Conservatives plan to claim that ACORN and Barack Obama stole the election. Their hope is to steal the legitimacy of what is looking like a massive repudiation of Bush, conservatives and the Republican Party. The Right plans to steal the election by trying to steal the legitimate defeat of them by progressive forces.</blockquote>
Matzzie makes some good points, but I think he is being too optimistic - I think the Republican establishment is doing its damnedest to steal the election. Sure, if they fail they'll try to delegitimize Obama and the Democrats - just like they did to Clinton.

Right now in Ohio, local elections boards are comparing voter registration information from targeted precincts with public records - such as driver's licenses and social security records - to find discrepancies between those records and the registrations - and purging the registrations if they don't match perfectly. Even though it is illegal to do that with Social Security records (which are available to the States for other purposes) and even though it is illegal to purge voter registrations within 90 days of an election. The Ohio Republican Party even convinced a Federal judge to allow it to continue to illegally purge voter rolls in Ohio citing ACORN as the reason (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-hasen/the-purge-surgewhy-the-go_b_133786.html).<blockquote>Cries of voter fraud allow for harsh purging of voters from the rolls. Because of decentralization of election authority and a lack of administrative competence or will, the rolls are inaccurate in many states. Careless purging--driven by unsubstantiated fears about voter fraud--can lead to many eligible voters being incorrectly removed from the polls. Despite the fact that eligible voters are being removed from the polls, the GOP is pushing for more purging in Ohio, and they found a sympathetic federal judge, citing ACORN's activities, in requiring the Democratic Secretary of State to allow county elections board to purge of many new Ohio voters who do not have an exact match in inaccurate databases.</blockquote>
Public records are faulty, very faulty, citizens often do not have easy access to their own files, nor any way to promptly correct them when they discover an error. Yet the fact of an error in a public record is enough to revoke your right to vote, in effect to cancel your citizenship because a clerk made an error when entering a record. In my own case I have been trying for several years to get my social security file corrected. At some point in the 90s my records were transferred or updated and someone made a typo on my year of birth. Now I have trouble renewing my driver's license, I can't file my tax returns electronically, and I can't get a passport. But there is no doubt about my actual year of birth, my records correctly show my work history, my past benefits (my family received survivor's benefits while I was still a minor after my father passed away), It even has my mother's date of birth - listed as the same year as it incorrectly lists my own. Consequently I check to see that I am still registered to vote on a weekly basis. On my last Driver's license the clerk transposed two numbers in my address. That is corrected in the State database now, but who knows? Through no fault of my own, and despite my own efforts to get my records corrected, I could easily have my right to vote revoked because of an error someone else made.

But if you live in a nice Republican majority precinct, rest easy, no one is purging your records ... unless you have a suspicious sounding name. Or you are serving in the armed forces. Or a bank is foreclosing your mortgage.

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

usuallylurk

10-12-2008, 09:23 PM

Here in the "people's republic" (Massachusetts) -- Election Day is NOT a holiday BUT state law mandates that you MUST give people time off to vote, if they cannot do so outside of working hours. Example - shift workers who work 7 am to 7 pm.

Also - we do not conduct elections "Florida style". If a voter comes to a precinct, and his name isn't on the rolls -- he is still allowed to fill out a ballot and it is sealed in an envelope and set aside.

Also - the INTENT of the voter is what counts. If you put a sticker on the ballot, or write in a candidate, and forget to throw the lever or tick the box next to his name -- THE VOTE STILL COUNTS.

And there is ALWAYS a paper trail.

As far as early voting - it's wrong. The absentee system is OK, but election day is three weeks away. A lot can happen between now and then to sway a vote, and it isn't just the President you're voting for. The House is up for re-election as well as a third of the Senate (including one of my Senators here). Casting a vote now is not a responsible thing to do, IMHO.

jon71

10-13-2008, 02:39 AM

Sounds like they do it right. I favor early voting but everything else you mentioned usuallylurk sounds right on the money.

usmc1

10-13-2008, 04:56 AM

As far as early voting - it's wrong. The absentee system is OK, but election day is three weeks away. A lot can happen between now and then to sway a vote, and it isn't just the President you're voting for. The House is up for re-election as well as a third of the Senate (including one of my Senators here). Casting a vote now is not a responsible thing to do, IMHO.
Au contraire..Voting early insures that you get to vote, no long lines, no weather or traffic issues and usually early voting, or absentee voting (vote by mail) insures a paper trail. Plus, now the time you have saved by not standing in a two hour line reaching around the church, through the parking lot and onto the playground you can use poll watching, driving others to the polls, or assisting others the Republicans are trying to block!

1. VOTE EARLY if you can, and encourage your friends and family to do the same.<o></o>
Early voting has already started in many states. USA Today reported that up to a third of the electorate this year could cast their ballot before November 4. If you have the opportunity to vote early in your state, either in person or via mail (or a "no excuse" absentee ballot), People For the American Way Foundation urges you to take it. You can find out about early and absentee voting in your state at Vote411.org (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=xAv7DQ8COuugCIopnB9LqA..) sponsored by the League of Women Voters Education Fund.

<o></o>
2. Help distribute voter education materials. <o></o>
Palm cards: We're thrilled to announce that we've partnered with the SEIU to produce educational voter ID palm cards that inform voters of what they need when they show up to cast their ballots. They are state specific and are available for the following states (based on where there are bad voter ID laws and where we expect to see aggressive voter suppression efforts): AZ, CA, CO, DC, FL, GA, IN, KS, MI, MO, NC, OH, PA, TX and VA. If you live in one of these states, you can place an order here (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=wnZMS7abGR5f946IqGnFxg..) for palm cards to distribute to voters. (Remember, certain communities are particularly impacted by voter ID laws and voter suppression efforts, among them, the poor, minority voters, the elderly and students.)

Toolkits and flyers: Also available are voter ID toolkits and two-page flyers for the same states as we have palm cards for. People For the American Way Foundation has created these in collaboration with the NEA, SEIU and other state and local partners. We've been getting them to election officials and allies as a resource in training poll workers and people doing voter protection work. These materials are available for you to download and print here (http://site.pfaw.org/site/R?i=qxErJULhz6SQv-DcVFpzAg..).

Naturist Mark

10-13-2008, 06:03 AM

Voting early gives you time to appeal to the election board if for any reason your registration is missing (purged) or there is some challenge to it. On election day you may be out of time and will just be given a "Provisional Ballot" - the majority of which are tossed without ever being checked out.

Seriously - DO NOT accept a provisional ballot - which are now being called "placebo ballots" by many election advocates. Appeal to your locations election judge on site first, and if they won't give you satisfaction, go to your county election office and straighten it out right then. If you accept a provisional ballot you are not voting.

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

Boreas

10-13-2008, 07:49 AM

Early voting gives you an opportunity to vote in the event you will be away from home on voting day. Perhaps things are different in the US, where you have a set election date. Our government can call an election, and the election campaign is usually six weeks long. I appreciate the opportunity to vote early.

They are talking about our election tomorrow and the potential results. It sounds like we MIGHT be able to have a new PM. I am not holding my breath.

ki4kxq

10-13-2008, 07:52 AM

Why am I not surprised about the total lack of truth as it concerns ACORN in this post. Naturist Mark would have everyone believe that ACORN is being wrongly accused by one state, that all they do is try to get poor folks registered to vote, and Obama has nothing at all to do with ACORN. Yeah, right.

ACORN is under investigation in 12 states. Their tactics have come under fire by not only republican, but democrat election officials. ACORN has completely overwhelmed some systems with so many registrations, mostly fraudulent, that election officials say there is no way to know just how extensive the damage is. One county in Ohio, now has more registered voters than they have citizens. On one voter registration drive in Ohio, folks were not only able to register, but cast their vote at the same time. That's a great way to stuff the ballot box. One ACORN worker, keep in mind ACORN bills itself as non-partisan, was not only helping folks register, she was telling folks to vote for Obama. She was captured on tape several times doing this. Nevada has several Dallas Cowboys on their voter rolls.

In Florida, election workers admit they have approximately 5000 convicted felons that are ineligible to vote on the voter rolls. They cannot even start to purge these folks because of the massive wave of new registrations by ACORN and other groups. The time needed to go through and try to put aside the false registrations is overwhelming. Make no mistake about it, ACORN is committing massive voter fraud. Some ACORN workers have already pled guilty to voter fraud. To make matters worse, ACORN workers are mostly low income or homeless folks paid for the number of registration cards turned in. That system alone invites fraud and ACORN should know that.

ACORN's misdeeds don't just stop at voter fraud, they have a big roll in the current mortgage crisis we are in. For years, ACORN, with the help of Barack Obama, strong armed politicians and lending institutions to make loans to low income folks who could not afford to pay those loans back. Barack Obama trained ACORN staff in these strong arm tactics while he was working as a community organizer in Chicago. The following year, Obama did legal work for this group. But Naturist Mark trys to pass off the lie that Obama has nothing to do with this group.

One thing that should be done is that voter registrations be done only by election officials or the DMV. This would be a controlled environment where proper ID would be shown and the system would be sure that each person on the voter rolls was indeed eligible to vote. If groups like ACORN wants to help low income voters register, pick them up in a bus like they have done this year and take them to the registrar's office. They should have no problem with that if they are only trying to legitimately help low income folks register. Of course, since their agenda is vote fixing, I'm sure they won't like that idea.

Protect your right to vote, make sure these kinds of groups are not ballot stuffing and falsely registering cats to vote(ACORN registered a cat to vote in Ohio). Insist to your state lawmakers that only state officials actually register people to vote. It's too important a job to hand over to homeless people working for cash and cigarettes!!

Boreas

10-13-2008, 07:57 AM

ki4kxq

10-13-2008, 08:16 AM

This the first year I remember hearing about ACORN. It sounds like a statement against contracting out services to me. It also sounds like an excuse for the losers of an election to whine that things were unfair. I anticipate hearing whining from the GOP side of the fence this election.

One man is testifying today that ACORN registered him to vote 72 times!! He is not the only one that ACORN workers bullied into registering numerous times. Is that how you would want your election board spending their time Boreas? ACORN has come under scrutiny in the elections of 94, 2000, 2004 and this year. Most of those elections were won by Republicans, not democrats. The difference is that this year, they have become very sloppy with their tactics, almost daring someone to do anything about it.

As far as losing the election, even though McCain has done just about everything he can to lose this election, the polls are now tightening up. McCain has narrowed the lead of Obama to 4 pts. Keep in mind that most polls always give the democrat a bigger edge than they actually end up with on election day. In fact, in his landslide victory over Jimmy Carter in 1980, Ronald Reagan did not take the lead in the polls until 10 days before the election.

With McCain running such a dismal campaign, Obama still can't close the deal. I believe people are having some serious second thoughts about Obama in the closing days of this election, which they should have.

Boreas

10-13-2008, 08:35 AM

One man is testifying today that ACORN registered him to vote 72 times!! He is not the only one that ACORN workers bullied into registering numerous times. Is that how you would want your election board spending their time Boreas?

No it is not. That is why I said that ACORN sounds like a good example of why privatization and contracting out services is not always a good thing. I am absolutely baffled by the idea that each state has different rules for voter registration in a federal election. That is absolutely insane to me. That says that every citizen in the US is NOT equal (as if I thought they were anyway :rolleyes:)

We have "Elections Canada" to register our voters:

Elections Canada is an independent, non-partisan agency that reports directly to Parliament. We must be prepared at all times to conduct a federal general election, by-election or referendum, administer the political financing provisions of the Canada Elections Act, monitor compliance and enforce electoral legislation. Elections Canada is also mandated to conduct voter education and information programs, and provide support to the independent boundaries commissions in charge of adjusting the boundaries of federal electoral districts following each decennial census. Finally, Elections Canada may carry out studies on alternative voting methods and, with the approval of Parliament, test electronic voting processes for future use during electoral events.

It seems like a much better system. The registration is the same across the country, and we all have the same procedures no matter where we live.

For more information: http://www.elections.ca/intro.asp?section=eca&document=index&lang=e

ki4kxq

10-13-2008, 08:48 AM

What you have described as far as "Elections Canada" might be something I would consider as you said they must report directly to parliment. In other words, they are closely scrutinized I would guess.

Groups like ACORN are just allowed to turn in however many voter registration cards they can. ACORN rounds up lower income and homeless folks that certainly could use some extra money, then pay them on commission. They get a certain dollar amount for every card they turn in. That practice alone invites massive fraud as their are no checks on these cards. Some testimony by these ACORN workers also alledge that they are threatened with dismissal if they do not fulfull a certain quota by the hour. Again, that invites massive fraud. Compensation on this type of work should be by the hour or the day.

ACORN says it makes triple phone calls to make sure each registration is legitimate. If that were the case, we wouldn't have the Dallas Cowboys football team registered to vote in Nevada. We also wouldn't have multiple people registered 20, 30 even 70 plus times.

Again, I believe only those folks that are held accountable to the government should actually be allowed to register folks to vote. It sounds like "Elections Canada" meets that qualification.

usmc1

10-13-2008, 10:44 AM

One man is testifying today that ACORN registered him to vote 72 times!! He is not the only one that ACORN workers bullied into registering numerous times. Is that how you would want your election board spending their time Boreas? ACORN has come under scrutiny in the elections of 94, 2000, 2004 and this year. Most of those elections were won by Republicans, not democrats. The difference is that this year, they have become very sloppy with their tactics, almost daring someone to do anything about it.

As far as losing the election, even though McCain has done just about everything he can to lose this election, the polls are now tightening up. McCain has narrowed the lead of Obama to 4 pts. Keep in mind that most polls always give the democrat a bigger edge than they actually end up with on election day. In fact, in his landslide victory over Jimmy Carter in 1980, Ronald Reagan did not take the lead in the polls until 10 days before the election.

With McCain running such a dismal campaign, Obama still can't close the deal. I believe people are having some serious second thoughts about Obama in the closing days of this election, which they should have.

The problem with these apocryphal tales is that they overlook a very simple fact. Some one can fill out 100 registration cards, which will result in their being registered but once! You are not registered and get to vote the number of cards you fill out, you are registered...period! Once! Regardless.

The amount of misinformation being circulated by the right-wing on this isues transcends misunderstanding. It is intentional propagation of lies!

usmc1

10-13-2008, 10:56 AM

...
As far as losing the election, even though McCain has done just about everything he can to lose this election, the polls are now tightening up. McCain has narrowed the lead of Obama to 4 pts. Keep in mind that most polls always give the democrat a bigger edge than they actually end up with on election day. In fact, in his landslide victory over Jimmy Carter in 1980, Ronald Reagan did not take the lead in the polls until 10 days before the election.

With McCain running such a dismal campaign, Obama still can't close the deal. I believe people are having some serious second thoughts about Obama in the closing days of this election, which they should have.

Close? Where? Even West Virginia is tilting toward Obama. What's that sound? Righties whistling past the graveyard!

PRINCETON, NJ -- Voter preferences in the presidential race continue to be generally auspicious for Barack Obama's election prospects only three weeks ahead of the eve of Election Day. Obama leads McCain by 10 percentage points, 51% to 41%, among all registered voters, according to Gallup Poll Daily tracking (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx) from Oct. 10-12.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/qi5jkihsdkygozlcmtl09w.gif

Obama Leads on Intrade 353 to 185

This morning's state-by-state Intrade.com (http://www.intrade.com/) map shows Obama with 353 electoral votes to McCain's 185. This is not far off from our score of 346 to 181 with Missouri tied. Bettors think Obama will sweep all the Kerry states plus Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Iowa, Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada. The only swing state colored red is Missouri. Here is the Intrade map.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Images/Intrade-map-Oct13.jpg
Obama Continues to Lead in the National Polls

Here is today's batch of national polls. Obama has an average lead nationally of 8%.
- Diageo tracking (Obama +8)
- Gallup Tracking (Obama +7)
- Rasmussen tracking (Obama +6)
- Research 2000 tracking (Obama +13)
- Washington Post/ABC (Obama +10)
- Zogby (Obama +4)

Qikdraw

10-13-2008, 10:57 AM

Again, I believe only those folks that are held accountable to the government should actually be allowed to register folks to vote. It sounds like "Elections Canada" meets that qualification.

Ok. You heard it here first ladies and gentlemen! ki4kxq is advocating for a larger government! :D

Sorry ki, I coudn't resist. :stick:

:D

Boreas

10-13-2008, 11:30 AM

Ok. You heard it here first ladies and gentlemen! ki4kxq is advocating for a larger government! :D

Sorry ki, I coudn't resist. :stick:

:D

LOL. :laugh: Now, be nice. :sneaky:

As for the comments about McCain losing, I really hope he does not get in. I do not think the world can afford another goverment like the last one. I do not think the current crop of Republicans represent the true nature of the party.

Qikdraw

10-13-2008, 12:20 PM

LOL. :laugh: Now, be nice. :sneaky:

I am being nice! It wasn't meant in any way mean, it was just a tease. :)

As for the comments about McCain losing, I really hope he does not get in. I do not think the world can afford another goverment like the last one. I do not think the current crop of Republicans represent the true nature of the party.

I don't think either party really represents the majority of Americans. Which is why I have always advocated voting 3rd party if you do not like the current two party leaders. the system will not change if the people continue to support the system.

Qikdraw

10-13-2008, 12:27 PM

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Images/Intrade-map-Oct13.jpg

I'd like to see some of those northern states that has small McCain leads go to Obama too. I'd like to see a large blowout election for Obama, not just to get him in, but to get the republican party to change. For the last 30 years they have been lead by neo-cons who really do not care for traditional republican values. Republicans used to stand for responsible government, but the neo-cons just don't care. Its all about secrecy and more power. Hopefully if Obama can get a landslide victory the republican party will revolt and get these people out of the back rooms and out of the party power structure.

Boreas

10-13-2008, 12:30 PM

I am being nice! It wasn't meant in any way mean, it was just a tease. :)

I know. Just teasing you back. :p

I don't think either party really represents the majority of Americans. Which is why I have always advocated voting 3rd party if you do not like the current two party leaders. the system will not change if the people continue to support the system.

I know and agree. That has been a topic up here these days. Of course the Liberals are saying that if you vote NDP or Green, you will get a Conservative majority. I have the good fortune :confused: of living in a riding that will no doubt get the same Conservative MP again. He has been in since 1993, and I see no reason for this to change tomorrow. Consequently, I can vote my conscience and give my voice to a party I can support. I can assure you it will not be Conservative or Liberal!

jon71

10-13-2008, 12:47 PM

I think Republicans talking so much about the "scandal" (lol) of Acorn is the fact that they're already looking for a scapegoat for McCain losing. In '92 (and this election feels SO much like '92 to me) they said Perot lost it for them despite the fact that he split "change" and "anti-incumbent" votes with Clinton. I'd say 80-90% or Perot's votes would have gone to Clinton but oh well.

Qikdraw

10-13-2008, 01:01 PM

I know. Just teasing you back. :p

I think I'm going to curl into a fetal ball and cry now. :(

I know and agree. That has been a topic up here these days. Of course the Liberals are saying that if you vote NDP or Green, you will get a Conservative majority. I have the good fortune :confused: of living in a riding that will no doubt get the same Conservative MP again. He has been in since 1993, and I see no reason for this to change tomorrow. Consequently, I can vote my conscience and give my voice to a party I can support. I can assure you it will not be Conservative or Liberal!

I don't think what the Liberals are saying is right. You need to vote for who you like best is what I think. I remember a long time ago in Wpg, a friend and I were driving along, and he had talk radio going, they were talking about a coming election and one guy called in and said he had a problem. He knew both main contenders for his area, he liked one, and absolutely hated the other, as he had done business with this guy and did not trust him at all. The problem was the guy who he liked personally was the opposite party from his normal vote, and his normal party had the guy he hated. He really did not want to see the jerk in office, but then if he didn't get in his party would take a hit nationally. He was really torn on how to vote, and shows a weakness in our system.

usmc1

10-13-2008, 02:40 PM

I'd like to see some of those northern states that has small McCain leads go to Obama too. I'd like to see a large blowout election for Obama, not just to get him in, but to get the republican party to change. For the last 30 years they have been lead by neo-cons who really do not care for traditional republican values. Republicans used to stand for responsible government, but the neo-cons just don't care. Its all about secrecy and more power. Hopefully if Obama can get a landslide victory the republican party will revolt and get these people out of the back rooms and out of the party power structure.

North Dakota is back in play as of today as is West Virginia. The McCain campaign is like a gut-shot wolf tearing at its own innards. They spent the week-end hatching up a new economic proposal and once the numbers got crunched they had to bag it. They're arguing among themselves as to what to do next.

That nit-wit Palin is telling the world that being found guilty of abuse of power means no ethics violations were found.

Rightwingers are frothing that Obama wants to shift the tax policies so that not just the top two percent and corporations have an opportunity to get ahead. Fools.

usmc1

10-13-2008, 02:54 PM

Forget ACORN. Here's real voter fraud. 12,000 non-resident RVers, register an address in East Texas and vote absentee, regardless of where they actually live.

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2860

Naturist Mark

10-13-2008, 04:02 PM

<center><a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/BlueHorde/?action=view&current=ToTheBarricades.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/BlueHorde/ToTheBarricades.jpg" border="0" alt="To The Barricades"></a></center>I think Republicans talking so much about the "scandal" (lol) of Acorn is the fact that they're already looking for a scapegoat for McCain losing.
There may be a little of that, but mostly they are doing it to provide cover for their large scale purges of registered voters. In some states where new voter registrations are running very high, twice as many registrations have been purged.

The election is being stolen right now, in plain sight, and the lapdog media is ignoring it.

Here's some of the latest news from Ohio (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2008/3229) that you won't see on the news:A Republican sheriff in Greene County, Ohio, has demanded social security and other records from 302 local voters whose ballots he apparently wants to negate. Sheriff Gene Fischer has requested registration cards and address forms for all Greene County residents who voted in a special session established in Ohio allowing new voters to register and vote on the same day. The process was challenged in court by the GOP. The Ohio Supreme Court turned down that challenge, and allowed the same-day voting to proceed. But now Fischer claims telephone calls complaining about the potential for voter fraud have prompted him to go after the information.
...
the Sheriff says he has no evidence of voter fraud other than phone calls stating fraud was a possibility. It is widely assumed that the same-day registration/voting option was exercised primarily by students who lean heavily Democratic. In 2004, African-American students from Wright State, Central State and Wilberforce were regularly challenged on their registration credentials and forced to endure waiting in lines to vote for hours. Students at Cedarville, a Christian school, made no such reports. Sheriff Fischer's targeting of historically black college students, the core of Obama-mania, is intended to send a chilling effect through the ranks of these Democratic voters.Got that? On the basis of NO EVIDENCE, just hysterical and illogical stories about ACORN, a Sheriff - NOT an elections official - is trying to have the votes of 302 early voters nullified.In Franklin County, home of Ohio State University, Columbus State Community College, Capital University, Ohio Dominican University, and Otterbein College, election protection observers are reporting continuing surveillance by Republicans at Veterans Memorial, the site for early voting. The observers have documented Republican operatives taking photographs and writing down license plate numbers of voters. Election activists expect similar criminal charges as in Greene County to be filed in the state's capital. Deliberate misrepresentation of ACORN's registration activities are all through the mass media, seldom reporting the spurious and illogical nature of the chargesThe grassroots organizing group ACORN has come under serious attack in Nevada, Missouri, Ohio and elsewhere from Republicans attempting to negate the thousands of generally low-income citizens ACORN has registered to vote. As a matter of law, ACORN is required to report irregular registrations that come through its process. But GOP operatives have equated these with "fraudulent" filings, and a have ramped up a smear and fear campaign aimed at negating thousands of legitimate ACORN registrants throughout the US.
Meanwhile Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner is appealing the ruling in a case brought by the Republican Party by Federal Judge George C. Smith, a Reagan appointee, that allows county elections boards to continue purging voter registrations even though it violates federal law prohibiting purges in the 90 days before an election. Judge Smith cited the concerns about ACORN in his decision.Before the ruling, Brunner announced at the close of registration that the number of registered voters in Ohio had jumped by 665,949, from 7,518,189 active voters on January 1, 2008, to 8,184,138 active voters now. About 5.4 million votes were officially counted in Ohio's 2004 presidential election. Then-Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell certified a Bush victory of less than 119,000 votes. A massive GOP disenfranchisement campaign could easily exceed that margin.Obama is miles ahead of McCain in this election, but I am not at all confident that he can win more votes than they can steal away.

The mass media can refuse to cover the story, they can spin the credulous fairy tales about ACORN that gives cover to vote stealing, but if the official results on that November Wednesday morning do not jibe with what reality plainly shows to be true ... well ... have no doubt about it, this country will not sheepishly stand by for a third stolen election. There will be hell to pay.

I'll meet you at the barricades

-Mark
<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

NudeAl

10-13-2008, 04:36 PM

Naturist Mark

10-13-2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks again for this info Mark.

In your opinion what, if anything, can be done about this? Specifically I was thinking in terms of getting this issue recognized in the mainstream media and letting large numbers of Americans know it exists. I would think there are some legal procedures that the Democrats should be looking at or are they not concerned? After reading this I am starting to become very concerned that we may see a replay of the 2000 elections.

It would be great if you could jump in front of a camera and get interviewed on your local news when they are doing election related 'man in the street' spots. Of course it is hard to boil what is happening into the pithy soundbites they are looking for.

Letters to the editor, of course. Something along the lines of my earlier posts about how they are counting on all of us being simpering idiots when they spin illogical stories about ACORN, and WHY they are doing it.

Click on the "Steal Back Your Vote" (http://stealbackyourvote.org) banner in the my posts - there is a printable comic book you can download for a donation (a penny or a thousand bucks - your choice). The centerpiece of the comic is 7 steps you can take to make your vote be counted. I am one of the sponsors of that campaign - drop me a PM if you want a preview copy first or just don't feel like making a donation.

Steal Back Your Vote (http://stealbackyourvote.org) lays out the many ways our votes are being negated, I'm distributing copies around town alongside the free papers and shoppers guides.

usmc1 made some great suggestions in this post (http://www.clothesfreeforum.com/showpost.php?p=211477&postcount=38) and about the great work of People For The American Way - also mostly about protecting your own vote.

As for getting nationwide media to pay attention ... sigh ... most of them are owned by corporations that have a vested interest in this story NOT being reported. Call in programs are a possibility - right wing radio would be of little use, but calling in to Larry King Live might work. Of course it would be even better to go right to the pinnacle of today's news media - anybody got Jon Stewart's phone number?

-Mark

<blockquote>The heaven-born mission of journalism is to disseminate truth; to eradicate error; to educate, refine, and elevate the tone of public morals and manners, and make all men more gentle, more virtuous, more charitable, and in all ways better, and holier, and happier. -- Mark Twain</blockquote><center>... sigh ...</center>

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

ki4kxq

10-14-2008, 05:35 AM

Qikdraw, there are a few things that I believe the federal government should be involved in. Overseeing a federal election might be one of those very few things.

USMC-1 and Naturist Mark, a 4pt lead within 3 weeks of the election is not Obama running circles around McCain. Again, McCain has run an absolutely dismal campaign, and, put together with this financial mess, Obama should have already put a nail in his coffin. That hasn't happened much to my surprise. Could it be that folks are finding out more about Obama and they don't like what they see. Yep, even the common folk are finding out that Obama will not be cutting their taxes. A plumber, (hardly the so called fat cat rich) nailed Obama on the campaign trail about having his taxes raised and being punished for his success. Obama told him, (captured on tape) that it was a good thing in his opinion to spread the wealth around. Really? Can you say socialism and income redistribution? Again, this isn't the evil 1% that we've been told that he would be taking money from, it's a plumber. You know, the one Gov Palin calls Joe Sixpack.

Now, everybody, sit down and take a very deep breath as I am about to agree with Qikdraw. Ready? If McCain loses it's not because Obama is the better candidate. We will go through at least 2 years of socialist hell. However, if McCain loses it's because he is not a conservative republican. We thought we were going to get a conservative with GW. All we got were the tax cuts (good), constitutional constructionist on the supreme court (great), and safety at home(good). He however was not conservative. Republicans have become as bad on spending, if not worse than democrats. They did halfway stand up against illegal immigration, but only after a huge outcry from the people. They didn't go nearly far enough. McCain should have come out against the bailout, and this extraordinary nationalization of banks. McCain should be all about drilling, not bailing out homeowners. McCain should be about stopping illegal immigration and making sure our laws are followed. If it were not for the supreme court and at least two judges up for retirement soon, and the 2nd amendment, I would rather have Obama elected. Let people find out that Obama was talking about them when he said raising taxes. Republicans problems stem from not having a conservative republican in for quite some time.

Btw, a little note to Obama. Taking from working folks and having the treasury issue a check to folks that pay no income taxes, is not a tax cut. That is called welfare. Also, if Obama is so smart, how come he keeps saying that he will cut capital gains tax to small businesses. Small businesses don't pay capital gains tax Obama. People are catching onto that though as is shown by your going from an 11pt lead to a 4 pt lead in less than a week.

Naturist Mark

10-14-2008, 06:04 AM

USMC-1 and Naturist Mark, a 4pt lead within 3 weeks of the election is not Obama running circles around McCain.

The polls I've seen put Obama more like 7 points ahead nationwide. But then again you should note that I don't think that is enough - those are polls of how people intend to vote - not of those who will have their votes counted - 7 percent isn't enough to overcome the kind of election fraud we saw in 2004, much less the elevated level we are likely to see this year. Races always tighten up as you approach election day, and everything points to this being a year of tremendous election fraud and disenfranchisement - with chaos at the polls when hundreds of thousands of voters are denied ballots. Don't believe me? Watch for little reported stories of extra police and private security (like Blackwater) being assigned to "protect" polling places in those urban precincts where most of the disenfranchised voters will be turned away - causing long delays and chaos.

As for the comments on socialism - do you even know what socialism is? Because the only socialism I've seen advocated is by the White House and McCain campaign. Seriously. What is your definition of socialism?

-Mark

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

ki4kxq

10-14-2008, 06:17 AM

As for the comments on socialism - do you even know what socialism is? Because the only socialism I've seen advocated is by the White House and McCain campaign. Seriously. What is your definition of socialism?

-Mark

I just got done driving all night so maybe I didn't make myself clear. McCain should have voted against the bailout. I believe I mentioned in the above post about the nationalization of banks. Those are socialistic and I called both my Senators and Congressman to tell them to vote NO!

Obama believes that it is ok to take the hard earned income from folks and give to those that HE believes should be successful too. Government handouts don't make anybody successful. If someone wants to go to college, let them pay for it. If someone signed up for a mortgage that they couldn't afford, the only remedy, unless they make more money and can afford to keep it, is to sell it. It is not the governments job to keep folks in their homes.

I know folks say college is not affordable, yes it is. Read a story not long ago about a kid that paints curb numbers in front of houses for $5 a piece. He does it all summer. That money pays for 1 year of tuition. Good grief, people in this country have just gotten lazy and don't want to do what's necessary to succeed. They think it's the governments job to do it for them.

Boreas

10-14-2008, 06:36 AM

ki4kxq

10-14-2008, 06:58 AM

Socialist hell???? There is NOTHING in the US that represents socialism as far as I can see.

As for college grants and such. I was able to get my undergrad degree with the help of some government grants and low interest loans. I also worked my tail off with the Army Reserve in the summers and during the school year. Let's see, I was in the military, does that make me a conservative supporter???? I accepted student grants, does that make me a socialist? I did them both at the same time, what does THAT mean???? :eek: :confused: For the record, I have since paid off those loans, and have gotten a graduate degree. I am now a tax paying, contributing citizen. I am not a slacker living off the government hand outs. Sometimes government supports are more economical in the long run. They do not always create dependency.

It is a myth that people need to be totally self-sufficient. It is right-winged rhetoric that allows the status quo to continue. I would recommend some reading and learning to fix that dualistic thinking.

Let's see, you were serving your country in the Army Reserve while your country was helping you pay for college. Nope, that's not socialist. Trying to get elected by promising everybody and his brother a handout for college is socialism. The point is Boreas, you worked your butt off in service to your country and they in return helped you pay for school. We have programs down here that will completely pay for your school in certain fields (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc) if you agree to work in underserved areas (rural or inner city) for a few years after graduation. Those are not socialistic either, there is an exchange of goods and/or services.

Don't read much, don't have time. Listen to audiobooks downloaded to the Ipod instead as I have 11 hours of drive time every night. Recently finished Zig Ziglar, Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, Larry Wingett, and Joel Osteen. Starting on Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. Larry Wingett's was one of my favorites. The title "Your broke because you want to be". I'm not sure if you would like that one or not, especially if you judge it by the title alone. It does however give a good insight as to why some people succeed and some do not.

usmc1

10-14-2008, 12:42 PM

Trying to get elected by promising everybody and his brother a handout for college is socialism.
Nope, no such promises have been made and no such programs exist except in the minds of the dysfnctional and selfish few.

Don't read much Believe me it shows!

usmc1

10-14-2008, 12:45 PM

Obama believes that it is ok to take the hard earned income from folks and give to those that HE believes should be successful too.

No he does not. This is false characterization of what he has said and has put forth..you should try reading his statements in their entirety.

jon71

10-14-2008, 01:01 PM

It's pretty obvious that ki4kxq lives in the imaginary world where Rush and Sean are actually telling the truth and conservativism isn't a soon to be anachronism. In the real world Obama will cut takes for very nearly all Americans. McCain will drop taxes on less than 10% of Americans. Guess which less than 10% come out ahead. Here we have a conservative saying that middle class tax cuts are socialism. I suppose that tells you the state of conservativism now.

usmc1

10-14-2008, 03:10 PM

Naturist Mark

10-14-2008, 03:55 PM

Obama believes that it is ok to take the hard earned income from folks and give to those that HE believes should be successful too.Nope, Obama's tax plan lets those with hard earned income keep more of it, while returning the rates of those who easily accumulated large amounts of unearned income to rates not quite as high as those under Clinton - when we had the longest period of economic growth in American historyTrying to get elected by promising everybody and his brother a handout for college is socialism.No, that is not socialism. Not even close. Clue: socialism has something to do with economics and ownership - trying looking on teh internets, or a Political Science 101 text.Those are not socialistic either, there is an exchange of goods and/or services.Again, total ignorance. There is an exchange of goods and services under socialism, socialists even use money!

Seriously, you shouldn't be deriding anybody's policies as "socialist" when you clearly have no idea what it means.

-Mark

Boreas

10-14-2008, 05:44 PM

Seriously, you shouldn't be deriding anybody's policies as "socialist" when you clearly have no idea what it means.

:applause:

NudeAl

10-14-2008, 06:22 PM

Socialism? LOL! You mean like what just happened today?LOL

You mean socialism is like when the government goes out and buys large private corperations like AIG Freddie Mac and Fanny May or just like they did today buying 20 BILLION worth of Bank of America, Wells Fargo and several other huge banks? You bet we have a socialist government and we can thank GW and his robber barron buddies who got burned by being greedy SOBs!

Naturist Mark

10-14-2008, 06:50 PM

OK folks, I did some calculations on today's positions of Obama and McCain in the electoral college, based on the multi-poll averaging tabulated at Electoral-vote.com (http://www.electoral-vote.com/icon.html), then I adjusted each State's weighted average with that State's Red Shift (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00270.htm) - the closest measure we have of the effect of error and electoral fraud as it occurred in the 2004 election - this was calculated by comparing the raw data of the 2004 exit polls before 'normalization' with the official results.

The result was to flip five States from Obama to McCain: Florida, Ohio, Virginia, New Hampshire and Colorado.

Under this scenario Obama still wins by 30 electoral votes: 284 Obama to 254 McCain

If you assume 3% margin of error, 88 electoral votes become uncertain, far more than Obama's 30 vote lead. That is still a healthy advantage to Obama, but far from the certain win some would assert.

The nifty map below was made using the dKos election map beta (http://images.dailykos.com/map/scoreboardc.html).

This analysis does not account for voters turned away from the polls because their registrations have been purged - which at this time appears to be the primary method being employed to subvert this election.

NudeAl

10-14-2008, 07:19 PM

jon71

10-14-2008, 10:31 PM

In Pat Buchanan's column today he said the same thing as one of local conservatives, that middle class tax cuts are the same thing as socialism. Conservative world would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

brazhunter

10-15-2008, 06:27 AM

Keith Oberman on MSNBC just touched on the voter fraud issue and mentioned the purging voters in key battleground states. Hoepfully others will also pick up on this and get the word out. He scribed it as a systemic effort to rig the election.

Apparently you have no problem with ineligible voters diluting the vote? Would you be happy if somebody flew in a hundred thousand people from E. Europe (likely conservative) and signed them up to vote? Are you okay with the possibility that a single individual may vote more than once because they are fraudulently registered in multiple precincts? If you are willing to break election laws to get your guy elected, are you willing to accept the results of an election of the other side rigs the election more effectively?

usmc1

10-15-2008, 09:25 AM

brazhunter

10-15-2008, 10:24 AM

Flapdoodle. Strawmen. Nonsense. No one advocates breaking election laws, no one is bringing Eastern Europeans to the US to vote illegally.
No, but Acorn is registering ineligible people in droves. Yeah, I know, no convictions so it didn't happen. :rolleyes:

Go smoke some more straw.

brazhunter

10-15-2008, 10:28 AM

This is false characterization of what he has said and has put forth..you should try reading his statements in their entirety.

Maybe Obama should read his own statements so he doesn't misspeak when he's um um... off.. um... the um... teleprompter. Either that or he just saying what he really means as opposed to what his campaign staff has written for him.

NudeAl

10-15-2008, 06:41 PM

Apparently you have no problem with ineligible voters diluting the vote? Would you be happy if somebody flew in a hundred thousand people from E. Europe (likely conservative) and signed them up to vote? Are you okay with the possibility that a single individual may vote more than once because they are fraudulently registered in multiple precincts? If you are willing to break election laws to get your guy elected, are you willing to accept the results of an election of the other side rigs the election more effectively?

ACORN has nothing to do with voter fraud. ACORN REPORTED the irregularites to the government. The situation was that they had hired private persons to conduct voter registrations however some of them decided rather than go out and do the hard work they would just pencil whip it fill in fake names and submit the paperwork. Now what the GOP is doing is eliminating voters even though that is AGAINST THE LAW. Deleting THOUSANDS of voters from the rolls of registered voters, and no one is going to tell these people that they have been erased from the rolls until they show up to vote. That is the case, oh by the way McCain was singing the praises of ACORN a few years ago giving a speach to them thanking them for their hard work. Hello how is it that now they are on his Sh*t list oh that's right they are registering people in working class neighborhoods who historically vote Democrat. IT'S THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE BREAKING ELECTION LAWS!!

jon71

10-15-2008, 11:32 PM

Every time republicans offer to "fix" something that isn't a problem to start with you know there's something in it for them. Never mind that there has been zero voter fraud, republicans want to be sure that doesn't happen and if it that means disenfranchising thousands or maybe millions of mostly Democratic voters, oh well, that's the price we pay for democracy.

brazhunter

10-16-2008, 07:04 AM

Never mind that there has been zero voter fraud,
That's just ridiculous.

Fitz1980

10-16-2008, 07:13 AM

Maybe Obama should read his own statements so he doesn't misspeak when he's um um... off.. um... the um... teleprompter. Either that or he just saying what he really means as opposed to what his campaign staff has written for him.

Not just no convictions, but ACORN was the ones who reported the whole thing to the government; sounds like some real shady stuff there.

Oh and those "um um" jokes are getting a little old considering that your side has had a guy in the White House who can't give a coherent speech even when his teleprompter is working. Your side also has a VP candidate who can't name one newspaper or even know what the Bush Doctrine is. Oh and in order to get the nomination McCain had to sell out every bit of integrity that he had in order to appeal to the fat cats who pull the strings and unwashed retards who make up the base of that party.

brazhunter

10-16-2008, 10:24 AM

Not just no convictions, but ACORN was the ones who reported the whole thing to the government; sounds like some real shady stuff there.
Plenty of other complaints besides the ones Acorn has reported too. Your assertion that there has NEVER been any fraudulent voting is just ridiculous though. It happens, it's rarely caught, both sides (and others) do it. The larger crime is pretending it doesn't happen or ignoring it when it does. It should not be tolerated by anyway.

Oh and those "um um" jokes are getting a little old considering that your side has had a guy in the White House who can't give a coherent speech even when his teleprompter is working.
Yeah, it sucks hearing 8 years worth of derogatory rhetoric being directed back to your guy, doesn't it. It was funny then though. :rolleyes:

Fitz1980

10-16-2008, 01:39 PM

Naturist Mark

10-16-2008, 06:05 PM

Plenty of other complaints besides the ones Acorn has reported too. Your assertion that there has NEVER been any fraudulent voting is just ridiculous though. It happens, it's rarely caught, both sides (and others) do it. The larger crime is pretending it doesn't happen or ignoring it when it does. It should not be tolerated by anyway.

An extensive Justice Department task force (http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_republican_war_on_voting) on voter fraud initiated by John Ashcroft between 2002 and 2005 did not indentify a single instance of a voter impersonating another voter - dead or alive, real or fictional. This initiative was the driving force behind the US Attorney scandal (http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/3893/1/490?TopicID=1) - those attorneys who properly downgraded the resources devoted to this fruitless and clearly political witch hunt were fired. But that doesn't mean the task force never found any voter fraud, they did. Over that period they discovered 38 people who placed votes who were ineligible for various reasons - but none were impersonating anyone else. 38 people out of over 100 million in several dozen elections. None were connected to ACORN (http://www.fox59.com/pages/landing_politics/?Fact-Check-McCain-taints-Obama-with-comm=1&blockID=104071&feedID=21).

It isn't that voter fraud is not a serious crime, it is. It just isn't a serious problem (http://truthaboutfraud.org/).

What is a serious problem, and IS a crime, is that the specter of the disruption of democracy caused by those 38 voters (and the dozens more who never got caught) is being used to disenfranchise millions of law abiding eligible voters. Including over 200,000 in my own State of Ohio.

I have yet to hear an argument that justifies disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters in individual states - millions nationwide - in order to, perhaps, stop a few of the handful of illegal voters. Is it really far far better to stop ten thousand eligible votes than to (maybe) let a single illegal vote slip through?

My Secretary of State, Jennifer Brunner, is now appealing (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/exclusive-ohio-secretary_n_135269.html) the federal circuit court decision allowing the Republican Party in Ohio to violate federal election law in order to purge of the registrations of 200,000 Ohio voters who have files with clerical errors in government databases. Yeah, they want to deny you your right to vote if some clerk entered a digit wrong, or if one government record has your middle initial while the other spells out your middle name. Seriously.

Included among the 200,000, is a guy from the neighborhood "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher, who's name is misspelled on the Lucas County voter registration roll.

-Mark

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

Naturist Mark

10-17-2008, 04:05 PM

My Secretary of State, Jennifer Brunner, is now appealing (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/exclusive-ohio-secretary_n_135269.html) the federal circuit court decision allowing the Republican Party in Ohio to violate federal election law in order to purge of the registrations of 200,000 Ohio voters who have files with clerical errors in government databases. Yeah, they want to deny you your right to vote if some clerk entered a digit wrong, or if one government record has your middle initial while the other spells out your middle name. Seriously.

Included among the 200,000, is a guy from the neighborhood "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher, who's name is misspelled on the Lucas County voter registration roll.Good news, Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner was successful in her appeal to the Supreme Court of the lower court ruling allowing the Ohio Republican Party to proceed with voter registration purges in violation of federal law.

High court rejects GOP bid in Ohio voting dispute (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h5P2f-dgLBCzuRdaaWR2BTYBb81AD93SBAJO0)

-Mark

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

Naturist Mark

10-17-2008, 07:42 PM

John McCain pounded the last nail into the coffin of his presidential ambitions Wednesday night, and no one realized it ... except Barack Obama, but cool hand Barack never let on.

We've been following the ACORN nonsense for some time now - noting how the hysterical charges of them setting up voter fraud are not only false, but completely illogical. But that those charges have a purpose - to provide cover for Republican efforts to disqualify the registrations of eligible voters.

ACORN has been a target of the Bush administration ever since John Ashcroft was chosen as its first Attorney General following his humiliating defeat in his Senate race by a dead man in Missouri. A loss he blamed on the record numbers of new minority voters, mostly in St. Louis, registered by ACORN.

We've noted that ACORN has been repeatedly subject to accusations, investigations, and several prosecutions ever since then. But every single time ACORN has been exonerated of all charges. Individual recruiters formerly employed by ACORN have been convicted - after being turned in by ACORN and prosecuted with ACORN's active assistance.

But that doesn't fit the required narrative. So it is ignored or twisted.

Remember how Ashcroft's, and then Gonzalez' Justice Department pushed the bogus 'voter fraud' issue so hard that it snowballed into the US Attorney firing scandal that is now in the hands of a special prosecutor? Too bad the RNC and McCain keep forgetting that.

On Wednesday McCain made the extraordinary claim that ACORN "is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy."

Cool Hand Barack responded with a very low key explanation about ACORN being the victim of some bad employees, who made up false registrations to make it look like they were doing their job.

After the Debate the McCain campaign pounced, renewing calls for official investigations into the nefarious activities of ACORN.

Yesterday, anonymous (for a reason) senior FBI officials announced that the FBI was investigating whether ACORN was purposefully encouraging the creation of false voter registrations. (Without explaining that such a 'purpose' is nonsensical since ACORN would then flag those same registrations and turn them, and those who collected them, into the authorities).

Why anonymous? Because the announcement was extremely improper, the FBI does not announce investigations. Definitely against the rules, especially since it violates firm rules about making public statements prior to an election about investigations that could effect the outcome. And very possibly illegal - if it was meant to influence an election.

To sum up thus far, FBI was responding to, that is coordinating with, the Republican National Committee and the McCain campaign, by initiating an investigation into a matter that is patently and clearly wholly void of merit, and announced that investigation in complete contradiction of Justice Dept policy and almost certainly of law.

Today Barack Obama's legal team asked U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey to to hand over to special prosecutor Nora Dannehy any probe into what Bauer called “bogus claims of vote fraud” that mirror concerns raised by Republicans two years ago. Dannehy is the special prosecutor in charge of the cases stemming from what the Inspector General called the illegal firing of US Attorneys for failure to pursue bogus prosecutions of voter fraud.

Mukasey can probably just brazen this out. After all, even though he was appointed to "clean up Justice" after the mess left by hurricane Alberto, he has refused to enforce congressional subpoenas or prosecute clear cases of criminal behavior within the adminstration (thus the special prosecutor).

The mainstream media is going to be vicious in response to this, you will clearly see exactly where the corporations that run them stand by which way they slant the story. Well ... probably they will ignore it as much as they can. Let's hope they are forced to acknowledge it.

The point is that Obama and his brain trust are not only taking seriously this attempt to subvert "the fabric of democracy" to borrow a phrase, but they are fighting back. No matter how this election turns out, we are going to finally see a serious effort to fight back against the hijacking of democracy, no more Democratic hand wringing and avoiding the subject in public for fear of looking like tin foil hat conspiracy nuts. The head of the Democratic Party, while he is solidly ahead in all the polls, instead of playing it safe, has announced that enough is enough. We are fighting for democracy. There is a whole new world ahead of us.

Obama's legal team seeks special prosecutor for voter registration probe (http://www.freep.com/article/20081017/NEWS15/81017065)

Letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey (http://www.politico.com/static/PPM106_obama_doj_letter.html)

-Mark

<a href="http://stealbackyourvote.org"><img src="http://gregpalast.com/images/banner4.jpg"/></a>

Naturist Mark

10-17-2008, 08:19 PM

jon71

10-17-2008, 11:49 PM

usmc1

10-18-2008, 04:59 AM

For the record I voted today for President-elect Obama. I took my baby girl (almost 9) with me and was explaining things to her. She has voted for Obama with Nickelodeon already. She was a little disappointed to find out that those votes won't be turned in to the govt. to be counted, that it was just practice for after she's 18. Still she got to see democracy in action and has a little sticker to prove it. She was very happy to do this with me.
Good for you....and her. My mom was very active politically and used to face off with Phyllis Schafley in our home town, back in the day. Kids that are exposed to politics and reading and are encouraged that way have such an advantage. Good for you.

usmc1

10-18-2008, 06:10 AM

In Texas Republicans are sending fraudulent e-mails to Obama supporters which purport to be from the Obama campaign instructing voters who wish to vote straight Democratic that they must also check Obama's name to vote for him. This campaign of confusion is aimed at young, first-time voters and, if followed, would result in the cancellation of the Obama vote, and subject the entire ballot to challenge.

The e-mail is couched in terms suggesting that the Obama campaign wants the widest circulation..."Be sure to share with friends".

It is representative of the scurrilous depths to which Republicans have sunk realizing that they have no message, no policies, and no leadership for current challenges only have as their last resort; fraud, distraction, diversion, disenfranchisement and suppression in order to achieve what they see as their "entitlement" to be in charge!

Voting Rights 2008: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly http://progressivestates.org/sync/images/dispatch/voteObey.jpg First The Victories

Fallout from Montana Voter Challenge Plan Continues: Last week we highlighted the tremendous job that Forward Montana (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=oaFkY0ikNY2Z%2BB6GvsDhMoGEUd4PAuSx) and other local advocates did in bringing a massive attempt to challenge voters in Montana to a stop. In just a few days the plan was abandoned amid serious public backlash. This week there has been additional fallout as the executive director of the state GOP has stepped down (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=y3EEFOZsAa7odOYq5yNCuYGEUd4PAuSx). Clearly trying to keep people like deployed soldiers from voting wasn't a popular activity in the big sky state.

Dramatic events like these don't happen by themselves; in this case Forward Montana used a variety of means to get the word out. One important tactic was posting the list of challenged voters on their website (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=BhMbYMdygmz7jBdzIh%2Bo%2FYKeC%2B2hvi%2Bz), along with information on how to fight a challenge. This allowed regular folks to look at the list and decide if there was merit to the GOP claims. When peoples' deployed relatives, recently departed college age children and ailing parents relocated to a nursing home were on the list, the voter suppression campaign was stopped in its tracks.

Michigan District Court Rules that Voter Caging Violates Federal Law: In a case that stems from the Macomb County, Michigan Republican Party's plan to use foreclosure lists to challenge voters at the polls, a District Court judge for the Eastern District of Michigan has ruled (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=4E23NOLlziKiYMzagjuC44GEUd4PAuSx) that the state's process for purging voters whose voter registration cards are returned as undeliverable violates the National Voter Registration Act of 1993. That law requires that states wait two years between flagging a voter as inactive and removing that voter from the rolls. Returned mail is often used, erroneously, as a basis for challenging voters' qualification. This process is termed "caging" and has been a favorite voter suppression technique of right wing operatives for decades.
GOP Efforts to Prevent Early Voting Fail: Three separate judges ruled in quick succession that they would not intervene to prevent early voting in Lake County, Indiana (see here (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=gDQ8Gpp27TCXIFBRt2p8AIKeC%2B2hvi%2Bz), here (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=29mdB2bX4OssGn9GyBi7eIGEUd4PAuSx), and here (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=iplaPc%2FvyiuczB7nH5ZjQ4KeC%2B2hvi%2Bz)). The Indiana Republican Party (IRP) had sought an injunction after the board of elections in the heavily Democratic county had voted to open early voting sites in the cities of Gary, Hammond and East Chicago. The IRP argued that satellite early voting sites could only be authorized by a unanimous vote of the county board.

But Voting Rights Still Under Assault

Ohio Ordered to Report Unverified Voter Registration Applications: In yet another case brought by the Ohio GOP against the Secretary of State, a federal judge has ruled (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=bB4qANKBLAQCKG4mTk%2BqoYGEUd4PAuSx) that Ohio election officials must directly report voter registration applicants whose personal information does not match with information in government databases to county boards of election. The Sec. of State says 200,000 out of 666,000 registrants in 2008 have mismatching data (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=sZRx7Pz%2F7G%2Btp%2BWezjmKbIGEUd4PAuSx). Previously such voters were merely flagged in the voter database and counties were free to investigate the eligibility of the voter if they chose. (Seems to be beaten back at the moment--but expect other attacks on voter's rights in this pivotal state)
ACORN Target of Coordinated Conservative Attacks: After last weeks raid of ACORN's Nevada headquarters in Las Vegas, they have been the victim of a multi-prong attack by right wing forces across the country. The McCain campaign and the Republican National Committee have held numerous conference calls (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=If%2BUpnP6EZX3jMQDSEt9doGEUd4PAuSx) accusing the organization of engaging in voter fraud. In addition, the Buckeye Institute, a conservative think tank where former Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell is a senior fellow, has filed a RICO suit (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=YF47WlWl%2Fnffj83%2Fj5vAJoKeC%2B2hvi%2Bz) against ACORN accusing them of engaging in a conspiracy to violate election laws.

ACORN has by far registered the most voters of any independent organization involved in voter registration, with over one million registrations this year. By targeting low-income and minority voters they are in large part responsible for the dramatic increase in Democratic-affiliated voters since 2004. And while some bogus registrations have been submitted as part of their massive registration drive, such registrations are flagged by ACORN and reported to election officials as they are discovered.

Given ACORN's apparent compliance with election law, the coordinated attacks against them seem to have two purposes: generating bad publicity for the Obama campaign by trying to tie him to the group, and delegitimizing the massive Democratic turnout, fueled by new voters, that is expected in November. Though even McCain surrogate Gov. Crist of Florida, ground zero in the voter registration struggles this year, doesn't believe ACORN is aiding or perpetraing any voter frau (http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=S9n2wne5woGvqzca3g7GUIGEUd4PAuSx)

Naturist Mark

10-20-2008, 07:11 PM

NudeAl

10-20-2008, 07:21 PM

In early voting in West Virginia (http://dvice.com/archives/2008/10/west_virginia_v.php) there have been multiple reports in two counties that electronic voting machines are switching Obama votes to McCain votes. Officials blame calibration errors and the voters themselves. There are no reports of the machines switching McCain votes to Obama.

In North Carolina there are reportedly large numbers of early votes in majority Democratic districts where there is no vote for President. Apparently in some Democratic precincts if you vote a straight Democratic line ticket all Democratic candidates EXCEPT Obama/Biden are selected, you must select them separately - which is a change from previous practice in NC straight party voting. No word on whether this peculiarity shows up in majority Republican districts.

-Mark

I wonder are they getting this info due to complaints from voters or how are they even finding out about it? Is there a print out option for the voter to see how the machine recorded his votes? Call me old fashioned call me a conspiracy theorist pretend I am from Missouri but I prefer to see it in writing. I need to see it touch it and know that what I wanted was what got recorded.

Naturist Mark

10-20-2008, 07:39 PM

I wonder are they getting this info due to complaints from voters or how are they even finding out about it? Is there a print out option for the voter to see how the machine recorded his votes? Call me old fashioned call me a conspiracy theorist pretend I am from Missouri but I prefer to see it in writing. I need to see it touch it and know that what I wanted was what got recorded.

They are actually seeing the screen highlighting the McCain button after they press the Obama button. West Virginia's electronic voting machines do not provide a printed receipt.

-Mark

Qikdraw

10-21-2008, 12:58 PM

MI Republicans Admit to Illegal Foreclosure Scheme, “Surrender” to Democrats (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/20/mi-republicans-admit-to-illegal-foreclosure-scheme-surrender-to-democrats/)

Democrats and Republicans have settled the suit seeking to prevent Michigan Republicans from using foreclosure lists to challenge voters. The MDP statement on the settlement says:

An agreement announced today by Obama for America, the Republican National Committee, the Democratic National Committee, the Michigan Republican Party, the Michigan Democratic Party, the Macomb County Republican Party, the Macomb County Democratic Party, and plaintiffs Duane Maletski, Sharon Lopez, and Frances M. Zick protects the voting rights of foreclosure victims. The settlement acknowledges the existence of an illegal scheme by the Republicans to use mortgage foreclosure lists to deny foreclosure victims their right to vote. This settlement has the force of law behind it and ensures that Republicans cannot disenfranchise families facing foreclosure.

Qikdraw

10-21-2008, 01:08 PM

Qikdraw

10-21-2008, 01:14 PM

Ontario police arrest man in voter fraud case (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fraud20-2008oct20,0,3842357.story)

FINALLY an arrest on voter fraud! After all this hullaballoo about voter fraud we finally have an arrest. Oh yeah... The person arrested? He's a republican.

usmc1

10-21-2008, 01:24 PM

I voted this morning, straight ticket, paper ballot. There was small line, maybe five ahead of me and five behind me, and things went smooth.

The clerks, the ubiquitous old ladies, were precise, careful and courteous and gave us a choice of paper or machine.

States with early voting are recording record numbers and some with extremely long lines and waits of up to two-hours.

Pew just an hour or so ago put Obama up by 14 in its poll. And it appears McCain is abandoning Iowa, Colorado and New Mexico...we'll see. Someone wrote that he was going to recover PA, which would have been like Kerry trying to "recover" Texas in '04.

McCain is a hapless fool partnered with a feckless wannabe managed by people who could not pass the test to clerk in C-stores. What are they thinking?

Naturist Mark

10-21-2008, 05:54 PM

The Ohio Republican Party, after being repudiated by the US Supreme Court is now trying yet again to pierce the prohibition against purging voter registrations in the 90 day period before an election. This time they are taking a case to the Ohio Supreme Court to allow them to challenge 671 votes already cast in Hamilton County (Cincinnati) during early voting. Since these were voters who registered and voted on the same day at they county election board headquarters - they would already have been verified with all the mandated ID and checks. The ONLY recourse the Republicans could have to disqualify them is to identify clerical errors in other government records - but that is not proof of disqualification, under HAVA data mismatches are only grounds for further investigation - such as examining a person's ID - which was already accomplished before the new voters were allowed to cast a vote. Similar efforts are underway in other counties, and doubtless will be expanded to absentee and election day votes if this first case sets the precedent that record mismatches are grounds for preemptive or "Post"emptive disqualification of a person's vote. It would mean that even if you are registered, and CAN produce adequate ID, they can still force you to vote on a "placebo" (provisional) ballot for no reason at all, and disqualify you on the basis of a single clerical error on any of a number of highly inaccurate government databases that you have no control over. The good news is that their case has no merit. The bad news is that the Ohio Supreme Court is not exactly a nonpartisan deliberative body.

Meanwhile Ohio's Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has been under attack. Literally. A package was sent to her office filled with threats against her and an unidentified white powder. She has received other death threats as well, and yesterday the Ohio Secretary of State website was shut down after a series of "security breach" attempts were detected.

BradBlog (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6539#more-6539)
FreePress (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2008/3249)

-Mark

Qikdraw

10-22-2008, 12:51 PM

usmc1

10-28-2008, 02:47 PM

Pew reported today that Obama leads in early voters by 19%.

And, that those who say they will yet vote early by 16%.

blindmanin99

10-30-2008, 08:44 PM

Wow, this thread sure got pretty long. I have been away from the site for a while. Well, I guess there has been a lot going on lately. The polls are showing the gap decreasing. Election Day is next Tuesday and I will be at the polls early, which is just around the corner. To be honest, I am very afraid that Sen Obama might win the election. Why? Because he reminds me of someone. Who? Well, let's see Sen Obama is an excellent public speaker. I have to give him credit for that. Sen McCain is kind of mediocre in that subject, I have to admit. Sen Obama is an absolute genius when it comes to his public speaking. That's one thing that has made him so successful. He is getting millions of people to support him, no matter what other people are saying about him, no matter what he has done in the past or his past associations. It seems like all these people don't believe anything about his past, matters. The LA Times won't release the video of that Obama/Khalidi thing. Why not? What is there to hide? No one knows who the source is, so what's the problem? Is the LA Times going to put this confidentiality issue above national security? I see commercials with children singing and making remarks, all in support of Sen Obama. Sen Obama is telling the people everything they want to hear, to get their support/vote. We're all in bad times and he is the one that can save us and make things better. The bad guys are the Republicans and we should all oppose them. Well, maybe I'm wrong but this is my opinion and how I feel. Hopefully I'm wrong, for the good of this country, but Sen Obama reminds me of the great leader, Adolf Hitler. Now I say "great leader", because he was, for his people, in those times. He was able to get an entire nation to support him and follow him to the very end. Well, maybe not to the absolute end, but the scheisse had already hit the fan and it was too late anyway. Now, I don't agree with Hitlers agenda, but he was a very effective and successful public speaker and leader for his people. Well, I better get going. I'm sure there will be a lot of response to my post, so I'll stop now. I heard of one guy in the community here, who had the same impression of Sen Obama, so at least I'm not totally alone. Just remember, you heard it here first folks. Have a great day and let the replies begin.

Naturist Mark

10-30-2008, 09:27 PM

I call Godwin's Law!

usmc1

10-31-2008, 03:35 AM

I call Godwin's Law!
Yeah, and I invoke the no paragraph clause!

Naturist Mark

10-31-2008, 05:50 AM

Naturist Mark

10-31-2008, 06:02 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2982850198_4312601395.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2982850198_36df1eef88_o.jpg)
Click for very large image for printing
Make copies, pass them around

<div><input src="http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/picture-13.png" name="image1" value="image1" id="image1" align="baseline" type="image"> <br</div</div><h3>
<strong>1. Don’t don’t don’t Mail In Your Ballot-unless...</strong></h3><div>
For those of you who mailed in your ballot, please tell me, what happened to it? You don’t know, do you? I can tell you that officially, three-fourths of a million <span style="border-bottom: medium none; background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; cursor: pointer; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_6">absentee ballots</span> were never counted last time, on the <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.StealBackYourVote.org"><img class="alignright alignnone size-medium wp-image-2142" style="float: right;" title="Lloyd Dangle Art" src="http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/picture-12.png" alt="" height="149" width="188"></a>weakest of technical excuses. And you won’t even know it. Furthermore, tens of thousands of ballots are not mailed out to voters in time to return them - in which case you’re out of luck. Most states won’t let you vote in-precinct once you’ve applied to vote absentee. Every time I hear of a voter going “absentee” to avoid computer screens, I want to “go postal” myself.</div><div> </div><div> But for gosh sakes-don’t throw out your ballot if you have a mail-in. Either mail it in, making sure to include ID if required (you first-time voters) or, better, WALK it into your county clerk’s office.</div><h3><strong>2. Vote Early...very early</strong></h3> Every state now lets voters cast ballots in designated <span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_7">polling stations</span> and at county offices in the weeks before <span style="border-bottom: 1px dashed rgb(0, 102, 204); cursor: pointer;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_8">Election Day</span>. Do it. Don’t wait until Election Day to find out you have the wrong ID, your registration’s “inactive,” or you’re on a challenge list. By Election Day, there’s little to do but hold up the line.
<h3><strong>3. Register and Register and Register</strong></h3> Think you’re registered to vote? Think again. With all this purg’n going on, you could be x’d out and you won’t know it. Check online with your <span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_9">Secretary of State’s office</span> or call your <span style="border-bottom: 1px dashed rgb(0, 102, 204); cursor: pointer;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_10">County Board of Elections</span>. Then register your girlfriend, your wife, your mailman and your mommy. Contact the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, the <span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_11">League of Women Voters</span>, and your local <span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_12">party organization</span>, and commit to a couple of days of door-to-door registration, especially in minority neighborhoods or at social service agency offices. And if you’ve served the time, you can sign: in almost every state, ex-cons can vote.
<h3><strong>4. Vote Unconditionally, Not Provisionally</strong></h3> In 2008, they’ll be handing out <span style="border-bottom: 1px dashed rgb(0, 102, 204); background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; cursor: pointer; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_13">provisional ballots</span> like candy, especially to Hispanic voters. If your right to vote is challenged, don’t accept a <span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_14">provisional ballot</span> that will likely not get counted no matter what the sweet little lady at the table tells you. She won’t decide; partisan sharks will. Demand adjudication from poll judges on the spot; demand a call to the <span style="border-bottom: 1px dashed rgb(0, 102, 204); cursor: pointer;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_15">supervisor of elections</span>; or return with acceptable ID if possible. And be a champ: defend the rights of others.
If you’ve taken Step 1 above and voted early, you have Election Day free to be a poll watcher. Run into trouble*-you’ve been caged or purged or challenged-call Election Protection at <span style="border-bottom: 1px dashed rgb(0, 102, 204); cursor: pointer;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_16">1-(866) OUR-VOTE</span>. Then challenge the challengers, the weird guys with Blackberrys containing lists of “suspect” voters. Be firm, but no biting.
<h3><strong>5. Occupy Ohio, Invade Nevada</strong></h3> The revolution will not be podcast. Let go of that mouse, get out of your PJs and take the resistance door-to-door-to register the vote, to canvass the voters, to get out the vote. Donate time to your union (if you’re not in a union, why not?) or to the troublemakers I’ve already listed here and on our site. This may seem a stupendously unoriginal suggestion, but I know of no other method more effective for confronting the armed and dangerous junta that has seized the <span style="border-bottom: medium none; background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; cursor: pointer; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_17">White House</span>.
<h3><strong>6. Date a Voter </strong></h3><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.StealBackYourVote.org"><img class="alignleft alignnone size-medium wp-image-2143" style="float: left;" title="Lukas Ketner art" src="http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/picture-22.png" alt="" height="140" width="170"></a>Voting, like bowling and love, should never be done alone. As our sponsor, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, says, make a date to ‘Arrive with Five.’ And keep this comic book in your holster - with our 800 numbers and your photo ID in your hand. And Bobby, make sure your ID says, “<span style="border-bottom: medium none; background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; cursor: pointer; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_18">Robert Kennedy</span> JUNIOR” or your vote is toast.
<h3><strong>7. Make the Democracy Demand: No Vote Left Behind!</strong></h3><div> I have this crazy fantasy in my head. In it, an election is stolen and the guy who’s wrongly declared the loser stands up in front of the White House and says three magic words: “Count the votes.” You can have all the paper ballots in the world, but if you don’t demand to look at them, publicly, in a recount, you might as well mark them with <span style="border-bottom: medium none; background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; cursor: pointer; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1225457569_19">invisible ink</span>. Democracy requires vigilance The Day After. That’s when you check in at <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.StealBackYourVote.org">www.stealbackyourvote.org</a> one more time.</div><div> </div>

Qikdraw

10-31-2008, 09:55 AM

The LA Times won't release the video of that Obama/Khalidi thing. Why not? What is there to hide?

As has been reported here already, McCain when he was chairman of IRI, he gave Khalidi over $400,000 for his organisation. SO using McCain's own arguement does that mean he 'pals around with terrorists'?? Not only that but Khalidi is very well respected in his field. There are no facts to tie him to the PLO other than he was in the middle east.

The bad guys are the Republicans and we should all oppose them.

I challenge you to find where Obama has said all republicans are bad. Rachel Mddow tried to pin him down on this last night and he isn't attacking republicans at all, he attacks policy, but not republicans.

Well, maybe I'm wrong but this is my opinion and how I feel. Hopefully I'm wrong, for the good of this country,

Well people rallied behind Bush after 9/11, democrat and republican, so I am hoping that this financial crisis will have people behind an Obama presidency, because a crappy economy is a national security issue.

but Sen Obama reminds me of the great leader, Adolf Hitler.

Thats extreme. I mean are you saying that after he gets in he is going to start killing all the white people or put them in camps? I mean really. JFK was a great speaker too, was he Hitler? Reagan was a great speaker, was he Hitler? What about Clinton? Just because people are rallying to his message about unity, cause they are tired of abusive politics does not mean he is Hitler.

Fitz1980

10-31-2008, 10:00 AM

Hopefully I'm wrong, for the good of this country, but Sen Obama reminds me of the great leader, Adolf Hitler.

I hereby invoke Goodwin's Law and declare this debate closed.

http://members.tripod.com/~goodwin_2/law.html

Naturist Mark

10-31-2008, 05:06 PM

I hereby invoke Goodwin's Law and declare this debate closed.

http://members.tripod.com/~goodwin_2/law.html

It's "Godwin" and I invoked it on the previous page. That means blindman automatically lost the debate.

In political campaigns we now have Maddow's Corollary (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Maddow%27s+Corollary&btnG=Google+Search), which states that as the time a liberal candidate is believed to be winning an election or argument increases, the probability that they will be labeled communist or socialist approaches 1.

<center>http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/MattGo74/GodwinsLaw.jpg</center>

-Mark

NudeAl

10-31-2008, 06:00 PM

I knew it the cat is Hitler! What's his name Adolph? Der Furrer???

A side note here in Washington state we are a mail in only state. I think I have more faith in the integrity of the United States Post Office than almost any other federal agency. Given the state of the voting process I have been hearing about in other states I think we have a pretty good system here.

Any thoughts? Are you personally happy with the system where you live?

Naturist Mark

11-02-2008, 10:36 AM

From Electoral-Vote.com and Politico:

<blockquote><h4>Study Shows Virtually No Evidence of Voter Fraud</h4><p>The Republicans have been talking a lot about voter fraud, but yet another study shows that it barely exists. Politico has a <a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15155.html" target="_blank">story</a> in which a reporter pressed Ronald Michaelson, a veteran election administrator who is now working for the McCain campaign, to cite a single documented case of voter fraud that resulted from a phony registration and he could not come up with even one example. When asked, another McCain official, Ben Porritt, came up with 13 articles. However, 11 of these did not involve registration fraud at all and only one involved a noncitizen voting. While there is no doubt that low-paid workers for ACORN and other groups have turned in false registrations to ACORN (to earn a bit more),the organization itself selects out the clearly bogus ones and puts these in a separate envelope before turning them in (as required by law). This is how the bogus registrations get in the news. However, documented cases of bogus registrations actually leading to illegal voting are virtually nonexistent as the fraud being committed is the low-paid workers defrauding ACORN itself of a bit of money, not actual voting fraud.</p></blockquote>Full story at Politico: GOP offers scant proof of voter fraud (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15155.html)

Naturist Mark

11-02-2008, 03:07 PM

Bob S.

11-02-2008, 04:05 PM

I don't know if this was talked about here, but in VA, there was a few problems for an unknown number (at least 100 in one county alone) of overseas voters whose residence is VA. The law for VA is that the ballot must be signed by a witness as well as having their address filled out on the form. Problems occurred when the voters used the federal absentee ballots instead of the VA forms. The Federal forms have a place for the witness signature, but not for the witness address so a number of ballots were coming back without the full legally-required info as VA requires.

In this case, however, even the Atty General of VA said that they should be counted because Federal law trumps VA law where Federal ballots are concerned.

Bob S.

Naturist Mark

11-06-2008, 06:42 PM

In case you were wondering, early reports suggest that the total number of voters who were unable to cast a regular vote may have exceeded 6 million. Many of them did cast "provisional ballots" instead - which are seldom counted.

Obama won by a landslide, and he had to. If he had lost there would be 6 million reasons to doubt the result.

But that doesn't mean the election results were fair. There were many other candidates and issues at stake. California's issue 8 is said to have narrowly passed by about 440 thousand votes - but 3 to 4 million vote-by-mail and placebo ballots have not been counted.

The case of Actor Tim Robbins (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27542625/) has become famous - after 20 years of voting in the same NY city precinct, including this year's primary, he was dropped from the voter rolls without explanation. He refused a placebo ballot and insisted on talking to an election official who could explain what happened - he was even threatened with arrest at one point if he didn't quietly accept his disenfranchisement. Eventually he was able to go to the board of elections - confirming he was no longer on the voter rolls, and then to a judge who ordered his registration restored and that he be allowed to vote at his usual precinct. It took him 5 hours and the intervention of a judge. How many of the other 6 million Americans who had their votes blocked have the time, wits, resources and fame to get justice?

Irony stikes comedian Al Franken. Alone among his liberal colleagues at Air America Radio, Al Franken always avoided talk of election fraud and dismissed the Election Integrity movement. He never included the subject on his former Radio show that he left in order to run for the Senate in his native Minnesota. That election has turned into a squeaker, with Franken trailing incumbent Norm Coleman by just 336 votes out of over 3 million - triggering an automatic recount.<blockquote>While <a href="http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/searched.php?ec=standard&state=MN&equipment_type%5 B%5D=All+Types&vendor%5B%5D=All+Vendors&model%5B%5 D=All+Models&vvpat=all&submit=Search&rowspp=50&top icText=&county=St.+Louis&stateText=">all of Minnesota</a> votes on paper ballots, thankfully. Though all of those ballots are scanned, rather than counted, on proprietary optical-scan systems made by either ES&S or Diebold. Both companies produce systems that regularly fail to count and/or record ballots correctly.</li></ul><ul><li>The majority of counties use the ES&S M-100, precinct-based optical scanner. As <a href="http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6613">we noted on Monday</a>, that same scanner was found, according to a letter sent to the U.S. Election Assistance Commission (EAC) by a county in MI, to have failed pre-election "logic and accuracy testing". The M-100, according to the letter from county officials, “reported inconsistent vote totals", such that “The same ballots run through the same machines, yielded different results each time.” <a href="http://pubrecord.org/politics/474-e-voting-machines-used-in-disputed-franken-coleman-race-failed-tests.html">Public Record has more details tonight</a>.</li></ul><ul><li>Two of Minnesota's three largest counties (Anoka and Dakota) use the Diebold AccuVote OS scanners to "count" their ballots. That system is the same one seen being hacked via its memory card in the Emmy-nominated HBO documentary <a href="http://HackingDemocracy.com"><i>Hacking Democracy</i></a>.</blockquote>

As usual the vote looks very suspicious in Georgia where all the voting takes place on Diebold/Premiere paperless machines. Right now Saxby Chambliss is just short of the 50% needed to avoid a runoff election on December 2 against Democrat Jim Martin.

Numerous reports of machine failures across the nation, especially in swing states like Ohio.

<center>http://www.heartpunchstudio.com/images/toughinalaska.jpg</center>

This election's #1 bad smell is coming from Alaska, where Convicted Felon Ted Stevens slightly leads Anchorage mayor Mark Begich. But no one who knows Alaska believes this:
<blockquote>SOMETHING SMELLS VERY FISHY IN ALASKA (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6644)
by Shannyn Moore

Something stinks. Not just an ordinary low tide smell. Not like something you’d blame on the dog. It smells like an infection. For me to plug my nose, I’d have to overlook some curious facts.

In Alaska, more people voted for George W. Bush in 2004 than for Sarah Palin on Tuesday despite an identical 61-36 margin of victory. Yes. Only four years ago 54,304 Alaskans got off their sofas and voted for Bush, but decided to sit home and not vote for Palin in 2008.

In turn, I have to ignore the 30,520 Alaskans who felt progressive enough in 2004 to vote for John Kerry, but weren’t inspired enough to get out and vote for Barack Obama.

I would have to glance past the 1,700% increase in the Democratic caucus in February, the 20,991 newly registered voters, and the three largest political rallies in Alaska’s history.

I would also have to forget the people I stood in a long line with to early vote. It would be helpful not to know every other presidential election since Alaska began keeping records has had a larger turn out than the one we just had with our own Governor on the ticket. Try not to remember 12.4% more Alaskans showed up for the August primary as compared to four years ago, before the Palin nomination. Don’t think about the Lower 49’s record voter turn out this year either. Try to delete the memory file, though difficult, that 80% of us approved of Sarah Palin just two months ago.

And as if all of that doesn't stink enough, we still don't know who won the Ted Stevens U.S. Senate race, the Don Young U.S. House, or even the race for Mayor of Anchorage and most curiously, why turnout this year was down 11% from 2004, even with Alaska's own previously-popular Governor on the ticket, and passions for Obama here and everywhere else, extraordinarily high...

Something stinks. You don’t care? Obama won. Yes. He. Did! Free at Last! Wait. Democracy demands all of the votes be counted…if you can find them.

More HERE (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6644) and HERE (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shannyn-moore/stolen-election-in-alaska_b_141704.html)</blockquote>

-Mark

Ken Palmer

11-06-2008, 11:45 PM

Hello fitz1980. I certainly had to partake of early voting to cast my ballot for this reason. I work in a desert community about 60 miles from my home for the Registrar of Voters office in my town from 6AM to after midnight the next day. Therefore, I voted at the same voting office on the Saturday before Election Day and you should have seen the lines there! It was incredible! I simply had no choice to do so since I do not vote by absentee ballot. I am a traditional voter and prefer to vote at the polls in person.

Ken Palmer

http://www.newsweek.com/id/161202/page/2

In an article called "Farewell, Election Day" George Will claims that early voting, which many states are allowing, will lead to an increase in the quantity and decrease in the quality of voters.

Seems to be a pretty elitist mindset of thinking. The problem with election day being on a Tuesday is that for many working people have a hard time getting to work and the polls, epically if they live far from where they work.

One friend of mine used to work at MBNA (the credit card company) said that they could take 4 hours off with pay on election day (that's a half day.) Another worked in the corporate offices of Campbells Soup and they could do the same; notice that's the corporate office people who could do that, not the workers on the factory floor. I work in a bar and if I'm on a double shift (common for restaurant biz people) I'd have to work going to the polls in between the shifts if not for early voting. I'm sure that Wal-Mart isn't giving 4 hours off to the store employees on election day either.

Will calls them sloth voters, but in many places early voters have to go down to the local election office, rather than the closer polling place in order to vote; how are such people lazy sloths?

Will says that making voting "too easy" will just allow apathetic voters, who don't really understand the issues, to vote. I say it's economics and class that prevents many people from voting on election day. Citizens not understanding the issues is what gave us 8 years of Bush.