Nude with children

[Nude and Tanned]

I have a question but first I will need to give you the background of a situation.
I was recently reminded of something I saw when we were in St. Martin last May. The wife and I were on the Club Orient portion of the beach and had just staked claim to a couple of lounge chairs when we saw a young man come walking along the beach. He had three children one holding his right hand maybe about 3 years old, a baby of may be 9 months old on his left arm and in his left hand he carried a diaper bag. He also had a back pack. This left a boy of about maybe 4 years old who was walking with his dad and hanging on to his father's penis. I started laughing and thought that the trio were cute. A little while later the wife joined the rest of her family and they seemed to have a funtime on the beach. The next day my wife and I were in Phllipsburg and saw this same couple and children shopping. The wife had the two smaller children, and the husband still had the 4 year old with him. The child was walking with his hand up the leg of the man's shorts. I said hello and talked briefly to the man. The entire time I was talking to the guy his son was still holding on to his dad under his shorts. I finally ask about it and man told me they were a family of nudist from Canada. The boy had grown up from an infant of only a few days old and had from the start formed an attachment to his privates. Now I am far from a prude but, I told him I realised it was his son and he was still young but, he should start trying to break the boy from this habbit because it could be viewed by some as possible child abuse. The man laughed and said he really did not see a problem with it at this time, as it keep his son quite and occupied. I simply finished the conversation and said see you around without further comment. OK, so my question is what do you all think of this situation?

[Nude and Tanned]

I have a question but first I will need to give you the background of a situation.
I was recently reminded of something I saw when we were in St. Martin last May. The wife and I were on the Club Orient portion of the beach and had just staked claim to a couple of lounge chairs when we saw a young man come walking along the beach. He had three children one holding his right hand maybe about 3 years old, a baby of may be 9 months old on his left arm and in his left hand he carried a diaper bag. He also had a back pack. This left a boy of about maybe 4 years old who was walking with his dad and hanging on to his father's penis. I started laughing and thought that the trio were cute. A little while later the wife joined the rest of her family and they seemed to have a funtime on the beach. The next day my wife and I were in Phllipsburg and saw this same couple and children shopping. The wife had the two smaller children, and the husband still had the 4 year old with him. The child was walking with his hand up the leg of the man's shorts. I said hello and talked briefly to the man. The entire time I was talking to the guy his son was still holding on to his dad under his shorts. I finally ask about it and man told me they were a family of nudist from Canada. The boy had grown up from an infant of only a few days old and had from the start formed an attachment to his privates. Now I am far from a prude but, I told him I realised it was his son and he was still young but, he should start trying to break the boy from this habbit because it could be viewed by some as possible child abuse. The man laughed and said he really did not see a problem with it at this time, as it keep his son quite and occupied. I simply finished the conversation and said see you around without further comment. OK, so my question is what do you all think of this situation?

[naturalmanwa]

I think it should have been stopped long before the child got to 4 years old.

[David77]

Analysis;
A four year old child hanging on to his father's penis while walking on the shifting sand on a beach would cause the father to have an erection (from the jiggleing) and/or cause pain to his groin area.

This gross sight would not be considered "cute" as you state that you think it was, but would cause disapproval and scorn by most beach-goers.

These sights sound unreal and gross!

[Bare in the Desert]

Agreed, that shouldn't continue.

[walter05]

Suppose a 4 year old boy was walking on the beach and constantly holding on to his own penis, how would this be viewed?

Most would tell you that it is a possible sign of the boy being sexually abused.

If this is the case, this is more suspicious if he is holding onto an adult man's penis.

If you see them again, I would write down any license tag number and call the authorities.

[Nude and Tanned]

I only noticed this family on the beach the first day. The father did not appear to be erect. I only thought it to be cute from the stand point of first observation. Here is this man with arms and hands loaded down and a child seeming to want to try to hold his hand or something until they got where they were going. It wasn't until the next day that flags went up for me. I didn't pay much attention to them the rest of the first day except to see them in the water a few times. I thought it strange when I saw them the next day shopping and it was obvious that the child was still hanging on. That is why I ask him about it. In a foreign country with people from all over the world how and who would you try to report it to. I would have been at a disadvantage because I didn't even know his name.

[walter05]

I did not say what you should have done. I placed the advice in the future.

However, if a four year old boy holds onto an adult man's penis, this is wrong even if the penis is not erect.

An adult walking man has a different gate than a four year old boy. This is true simply because the man has longer legs.

A man's penis is in front of his legs. It would be very difficult for a four year old to hold onto the man's penis while they are walking.

Since this would require an unusual amount of practice it is obvious something wrong has been going on.

This is evidence of sexual abuse. If you should see something like it in the future, you should call the authorities.

I agree that nudity is not wrong. If a nudist family wants to be nude, that is not abusive. This means that I expect adult men, with or without erections, adult women, teen boys, with or without erections, teen girls, young boy, and young girls to be able to be nude in front of each other.

However, if children are preoccupied with their own genitals, this is of concern. If they are preoccupied with an adult's then something is wrong.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Suppose a 4 year old boy was walking on the beach and constantly holding on to his own penis, how would this be viewed?

Most would tell you that it is a possible sign of the boy being sexually abused. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do not think that if a boy constantly holds onto his own penis it is a sign of sexual abuse.
It is a sign that the boy who holds onto his own penis feels a pleasurable, comforting sensation.

Many times a parent must remind a boy to let go of his own penis in his pants, especially when he is out in public - but has nothing to do with sexual abuse.

[walter05]

David77

I said "Most would tell you that it is a possible sign of the boy being sexually abused". That is different from saying that it is a definite sign of abuse.

While four year old boys may touch their penises in public settings, this is different from focusing on it.

However, if the boy is holding onto an adult man's penis, this is red flag warning sign.

[Fuzzy Nuts]

walter05 - I agree with you and even if there was no abuse involved the father should realize the harm he is doing his son at least in the eyes of others.

On a lighter note I keep visualizing the young lad having a good grip and then stumbling.

[Bob S.]

I agree with others here that it is highly unusual and the father should have never allowed it to even begin. I am going with the man's explanation that his penis is acting as a kind of security blanket for his son.

All security blankets should be weaned, and the earlier the better. No secuirty blanket should ever be a part of another person. This boy has serious attachment issues if he is still using his father to calm down. They are not teaching him self-control by allowing this to continue. The parents need to stop allowing him to use his father and cut him off (the boy, not the father http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif ) in a manner of days.

walter:"This is evidence of sexual abuse."

Without any other evidence, I would have to disagree. If he were intentionally "playing" with his father, then I would agree. But his use of the penis as a grip or a calmer, while unbelievably unusual, does not evince abuse. However, if someone were to call the police on him, he would be very hard pressed to explain it to a judge.

Bob S.

[K and C]

I would have to agree Just because the child uses the man's penis as a security blanket does not exactly mean it is abusive. I do believe this "habit" needs to be Broken ASAP. But not abusive.

[walter05]

evidence is not the same as conclusive evidence. The problem is that none of us are trained to make the determination. It is evidence and trained specialists should evaluate the situation.

"Just because the child uses the man's penis as a security blanket does not exactly mean it is abusive." Please read this statement by "Christy and Kevin" again. It certainly is indicative of a problem.

I have six children including two boys. There is a difference between enjoying the sensation and playing with their penises and being focused on them. As Bob said, most parents provide some caution for the boy so he will not do this in public settings. At some point both boys became fascinated by their penises. However, the phase did not last long and their interest was not constant.

As a society, we have tended to turn our backs on abuse of children. This has been particularly true in the case of sexual abuse. We should be aware of the possibility and make a referral to trained professionals who will be able to make a better determination.

[tinner666]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sad3.gif Definitely a 'red flag' event. I can't imagine the causes, but the effects could be long-term and detrimental to the child's 'adjustments/impressions'. Not sure how to put the thought into words, so please follow my drift, if not my actual wording. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/confused.gif

[shãybare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Reply </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
I'm sorry but I can't see this story as being completely plausible. If a kid is walking around holding his fathers penis in public, even at a nudist resort, I think there would be a lot of people, just like here on the forum, that would be concerned and report it to management. I don't care what civilized country you are from.

Out shopping? With security cameras and Security Guards around?

Their friends and family members would surely be saying something to them. Doesn't that make sense? Or is it just me?

[nimrod]

Seems weird to me that a child would develop that kind of attachment to an adults genitals if it was not encouraged by the adult.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Shaybare states;
Doesn't that make sense? Or is it just me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your statement completely makes total sense.

[Fuzzy Nuts]

The more I think about this story the more I wonder. It would be very difficult for child to walk alongSIDE his father and still keep hold of father's penis without getting tripped or thrown off balance as father's closest leg swung forward. (I really cant imagine father's penis being that long that child could keep hold of it as they walked together.)

I wonder if this is a made-up post.

[walter05]

I said "An adult walking man has a different gate than a four year old boy. This is true simply because the man has longer legs.

A man's penis is in front of his legs. It would be very difficult for a four year old to hold onto the man's penis while they are walking."

I should have thought this over a little more. I agree with Shaybare, David77, and Fuzzy Nuts. Perhaps this is a made up story.

Now if it is made up, does this mean that the one making it up may have some dangerous fantasies?

[NudeWil]

I've met Nude and Tanned and his wife, and, though I don't know him well enough to be absolutely, positively, 100% certain, I have no reason to believe the story's made up.

I don't understand the comments about "leg swing". The legs pivot at the hips. So assuming a brisk walking pace (probably not the case when walking with small children), the foot might move three feet with each step. The knee would swing about half that, and the top of the leg might move an inch or so at groin height. Keeping pace with a small child would lessen the effect.

As far as the boy's attachment to his father, yeah, I find that disturbing. Regardless of whether it's just something cute the boy does or there's something more sinister behind it, I think it's inappropriate.

[Ken Palmer]

I agree here David77. This really sounds gross and disgusting. If I had seen that, I would think there was some sort of a problem there. That is just not appropriate interaction between a father and son in my opinion. I would never have even thought of doing that to my dad as a kid, even if we were nudists!

Ken Palmer


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David77:
Analysis;
A four year old child hanging on to his father's penis while walking on the shifting sand on a beach would cause the father to have an erection (from the jiggleing) and/or cause pain to his groin area.

This gross sight would not be considered "cute" as you state that you think it was, but would cause disapproval and scorn by most beach-goers.

These sights sound unreal and gross! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[EuropeMan]

Having heard of only the first time he met this person and his kids (on the beach) I would not be worried too much. Many here are very casual with nudity, some may be even more with all body parts. They came from Canada, not that I would be sure that it would mean something.

I had understood that the kid would have wanted to hold his father's hand, but since these were busy he took the "third hand"... When it would limit to such occasional cases I would rather smile, if not admire this extreme casuality. The father was not erect, an erection would not be caused by the penis being simply - even hardly - held, only by the fact that his brain would have taken that as a sexual stimulation.
Since it is not, there is no evidence of child abuse.

Now, the second meeting puts another light. It's not said that the father had its hands full... and he was clothed. There is here an indication that the child holding the penis inside of the shorts would be some usual behavior, even a compulsory act.
There is no evidence yet of child abuse, but it's nevertheless questionable. Looks as the child could not detach from his father's penis... similarly as those who continue to hang and suck at their mothers' breasts. This indeed looks as not being "normal".

However, it's not the police, particularly in such a country, which could help in this matter. But social aid or child protection in their home country.

[Nude and Tanned]

The story is true. I only saw the the couple and kids these two times. I probably would not have even paid attention to it except for the second sighting. I don't know if the habit was a constitant thing or just something I caught the boy doing at the couple of times I saw them. If it was a security blanket kind of thing maybe he only held on when he was tired or bored or fussy. I just found it to be highly unusual for a habit. Sorry that you don't beleive the story but as people have said in the past truth can be stranger than fiction.
(Hey Wil I enjoyed meeting you, have a good Holiday.)

[tinner666]

Though I posted here earlier, a niggle was in the back of my mind that the story was implausible for the reasoning stated. I had a hard time picturing it then.

[Nude and Tanned]

I don't know why you people find this so hard to believe.
I do know I am a little put off by all the charactor assination I have received.
Such as in that I have a disturbing fantasy life.
I suppose you all need to go back to talking about how much and often you all shave your genitals and I'll save my thought provoking topics for when I can be around friends.

Just say the word I'll also go you one better. I will delete my part of this topic and the rest of you can do like wise and we'll all pretend I never posted it.
Sorry that I tried to start a thread it won't happen again.

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
Nude and Tanned, many people post here and we all state our opinions. Even if I thought the story to be true, you must admit it sorta flies in the face of common sense.

I will not call you a liar and say that it could not happen. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, even though I do not know you. But you must see this from my point of view also. I am 57 and been a nudist for over 20 years and have never seen this happen. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that you can see where I may be pretty skeptical.

Yes truth is indeed stranger than fiction, yet, I just can't see, in this day and age, how a 4 year old can walk, holding on to his father's penis, in public, without the father being challenged.

If something like that happened around here the person would be met by the police pretty quick.

[Nude and Tanned]

OK shaybare,
I certianly see how you can find this hard to believe because I could hardly believe it when I saw it happening. I won't give names but, I have had another person who posts on this sight PM me and state they too had a similar experience on an European beach so I am not alone in seeing something like this. I suppose people who have never been to a foreign country or even an open beach would be surprised at what can be accepted.

[aquaboy2001]

I think it's weird, whether made up or true. The father should have discouraged that behavior.

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
Not only the husband. The mother of the child should be very worried about it.

[walter05]

"Nude and Tanned"

First of all, I hope this story is true. However, I will admit to being skeptical.

I have learned from this forum that nudity can be wholesome and natural. Many on this forum make a point of it not being necessarily sexual.

Just because someone is a nudist or open to it does not mean that anything goes as long as someone is nude.

I have a son that just turned five. I also have a six-year-old son. They have both seen me nude. Neither has ever grabbed my penis.

There is paranoia in the world about pedophilia. This is one of the reasons that people thing that any time children and adults are nude together or in front of each other there is a caution. I agree this has gone to an exchange.

Nudists should be amongst those most aware of the body and its potential. Nudism will never gain acceptance if nudists look the other way when they see something like this and wonder if it is normal.

There is nothing normal, nothing about a security blanket to a boy holding onto his father's penis. If another boy is holding to another man's penis, this is not normal either.
Both are disturbing.

If the story is true, it is disturbing. I am still a skeptic, if it is not true, then it is disturbing to think it was made up by someone that wonders if it is innocent.

[Journeyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nude and Tanned:
I don't know why you people find this so hard to believe.
I do know I am a little put off by all the charactor assination I have received.
Such as in that I have a disturbing fantasy life.
I suppose you all need to go back to talking about how much and often you all shave your genitals and I'll save my thought provoking topics for when I can be around friends.

Just say the word I'll also go you one better. I will delete my part of this topic and the rest of you can do like wise and we'll all pretend I never posted it.
Sorry that I tried to start a thread it won't happen again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, N & T,

I believe this situation happened. You're right when you say that when one travels, one sees some pretty strange sights.

I saw a group of nude male seniors surround a 20-something nude couple on Orient Beach to watch them perform "foreplay" on each other. It was very graphic and I moved my chair elsewhere. It's a *public* beach there and anything can happen. What bugged me is that this was at 2 in the afternoon and there were all ages of people on the beach.

I kept thinking that if the French authorities decided to turn the beach into a textile one due to a number of these kinds of activities, St. Martin's tourism industry (not to mention Club Orient) would really suffer.

I've seen a guy "fluff himself" and then go into his chalet at a[n unnamed nudist] resort *every time* he'd see the maid's golf cart drive up to it. He'd then return to the pool area, semi-erect. Pure, unadulterated exhibitionism. I hope the maid thought he was pathetic.

So don't stop posting 'cos a few people here are naive at other peoples' behaviour that seems unbelievable. It's not a myth that there are nudists out there who will always equate nudism with sexuality and then wave it in everyone's face. Uh - figuratively speaking!

As far as the father and his four year old are concerned...the man and the child need counselling, IMHO -- separately.

[Nude and Tanned]

Thanks Journeyman,
I was not surprised that a number of people would find my story disturbing but, what I was surprised at was the number of people on here who chose to attack me and assume I was lying.

I suppose I expected a more adult reaction to the situation.
Some on here are obviously not mature enough to realise if you don't believe something, that alone does not make it untrue.
I have seen and been through many things in my life that others might find hard to beleive as I'm sure you have.
My question now would be why do so many people on here choose to attack what they don't know or understand?
I would not be affended of skeptisim but don't like being called a liar from people who don't even know me.

[Journeyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nude and Tanned:
My question now would be why do so many people on here choose to attack what they don't know or understand?
I would not be affended of skeptisim but don't like being called a liar from people who don't even know me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would hazard a guess that the people who called you a liar may be longtime members of this board, who are now becoming jaded to unusual threads, like yours.

I've only been on these Forums since July 2004, and yet I've read some pretty bizarre posts myself. We've had men masquerading as young women; a guy from Russia whose profile link showed kiddie porn on it; and people posting dozens of pics of themselves in the nude doing virtually nothing!

So, don't take it personally. Life's too short and you're wasting time not being nude. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[David77]

We have heard of exhibitionist having sex on the beach and others voyeristically standing around watching the performance, (such as on Cape D'age in France) but a child publically holding onto his father's penis both on the beach and in the mall, is just too much to comprehend, and too sick and pathetic of a father-son relationship for the imagination, and thus makes us skeptical. We can not prove the veracity, so remain amazed and puzzled.

[nimrod]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nude and Tanned:
I don't know why you people find this so hard to believe.
I do know I am a little put off by all the charactor assination I have received.
Such as in that I have a disturbing fantasy life.
I suppose you all need to go back to talking about how much and often you all shave your genitals and I'll save my thought provoking topics for when I can be around friends.

Just say the word I'll also go you one better. I will delete my part of this topic and the rest of you can do like wise and we'll all pretend I never posted it.
Sorry that I tried to start a thread it won't happen again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do not like name calling, but some people can be idiots. It is hard, but try not to take it too personally.

[Nude and Tanned]

Thanks for the support guys,
I have one more comment to make then I will shut up and the rest of you can continue this or stop it as you see fit.
My personal view on this situation was that I was appalled.
After the second sighting my biggest concern was what if another man with very dishonerable intentions approaches the boy and ask if he would like to hold his privates. The boy could be in for a world of hurt.
The child being used to that activity may not see anything wrong.
He might be tempted do even more sick or discusting things.
I found it hard to see where any parent could think this was a wholesome activity.
I also think the child, even though he didn't seem to be being coaxed into anything, was too old to just be free to do as he pleased so casually with some elses body.
I don't care where the family lives somethings should be just universal.
I have been around many nudist families and this was a true first for me. The parents seemed so casual about something that most people would find appalling.

[alt76]

Whenever and wherever the parents were nude in front of their children, I don't see anything wrong with it. For children, it's an education to let them to see the grown up body. Although they will have laugh and smile as well as pointing their finger at parent's genitals (as long as not to touch it), they will learn for their own benefit.

If a 4 yr old boy hanging his hand into his father penis, I don't see it as abusive but I see it as a bad habit. This needs to be stopped as he will continue to do it as he grows. This will lead to a big problem later.

Even if I were to have a son or daughter, I would let them see mine but would never let them touch. I am more than a happy father to educate them, though I would feel embarrassed at first.

[Nudony]

I will not argue the veracity of this story; simply because I have witnessed and heard of very unusual situations myself. One individual once told me that it wasn't unusual for his pre-teen daughter to draw on or tie ribbons around her younger brother's penis; he seemed to find that actually amusing and innocent - I found it a bit troubling. One young lady (actually a friend of mine) told me that her 4-year old had adopted the habit of playing with her pubic hair while they lounged around nude; I didn't say anything at the time, but I should have told her it might be a good idea to gently break that habit.

These acts may be playful and innocent; but if allowed to become habits, they could ultimately thwart a child's sexual development. When nude with one's children, incidental contact is often unavoidable; but prolonged contact with the genitals, as everyone here seems to agree, is something best avoided for the health and safety of all involved.

[walter05]

Nude and Tanned;

After reading Alt76, Journeyman, and Nudony's posts, I believe that it is very possible that you did see what you think you did. Since, I have no way to therefore think you did not, I will accept the veracity of your story.

However, I have some thoughts on your last post and have interspersed them:

{My personal view on this situation was that I was appalled.

>>> I agree and wish this had been made clear to begin with. <<<

After the second sighting my biggest concern was what if another man with very dishonorable intentions approaches the boy and ask if he would like to hold his privates. The boy could be in for a world of hurt.

>>> Please consider that this person might already be hurting this boy. <<<

The child being used to that activity may not see anything wrong.
He might be tempted do even more sick or discusting things.

>>> I had not thought of this but think you have a good point. <<<

I found it hard to see where any parent could think this was a wholesome activity.

>>> Agreed! <<<

I also think the child, even though he didn't seem to be being coaxed into anything, was too old to just be free to do as he pleased so casually with some elses body.

>>> The question is how did he get that casual. It is hard to imagine a child learning on his own to consider holding on to his father's adult penis is acceptable. Either the father taught him to do so or did not teach him not to the first time the boy initiated it. Either way, the father's actions are questionable. <<<

I don't care where the family lives somethings should be just universal.
I have been around many nudist families and this was a true first for me. The parents seemed so casual about something that most people would find appalling.

>>> I find this statement to be of concern. A lot of what we would call non-nudist families have a range of views on nudity in the family.

During bathing, dressing, etc. Some same sex children see each other naked and others don't. Some same sex parents and children see each naked during those times. Sometimes all members of the family may see each other naked during those times. Even for non-nudists, this is not necessarily appalling.

I think we get the crux of the issue with your posts. At some point, you thought of the nudity as appalling. Now, you are confused about what is appalling. I think the participants of this forum do a good job of drawing those distinctions. I believe your active participation will help you understand better as it is helping me understand better.

Walter

[Tampanude]

Children are taught shame, intolerance, bigotry, curiousity, love, sharing, artistic wonder, compassion, kindness, fear.
None of which, last I checked, had to do with what they were wearing.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/idea3.gif

[alfredr]

Assuming that the parents would not purposefully do anything they thought would be harmful to their child, I can visualize that however this came about , they never thought about how it would look to outsiders. Obviously, most outsiders think it is not good.

The father's mind-body-senses don't find this to be stimulating; after all it is just another body part, like an elbow or a toe, right? He's just holding on to it, right? Gives him a sense of security. Why should anyone think anything about it?

I was going to say I couldn't visualize how this could come about, but I just remembered how my daughter, when she would have been in that age range, had to hold on to my hand to go to sleep. We weren't naked and she did not sleep in our bed, but change those two conditions, and I could see it beginning something like that.

I guess that's what comes from visualizing whirled peas, you can visualize just about anything.

[Nudony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The father's mind-body-senses don't find this to be stimulating; after all it is just another body part, like an elbow or a toe, right? He's just holding on to it, right? Gives him a sense of security. Why should anyone think anything about it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to keep in mind the child's stages of development. Between 0 and about 2, a child has no concept of personal space and body parts; so a toddler playing with a mother's breasts or extended physical contact is not a big deal. Around 4 is when a child begins developing a sense of his/her own body and the purpose of our different body parts; this is when the parent should be aware of how much physical contact should be reduced, in order to teach the child about personal space. This is necessary for a healthy sexual maturation.

[alfredr]

You are right about stages of development. The "terrible two's" is mostly about the child having to learn that the universe doesn't revolve around him or her, which up until then, it had.

[stomper69]

For the sake of arguement(or lack thereof),let's say that this is innocent and the childs way of being close to Dad or Dad's way of keeping a watch over his son.At 4yrs.old it's time to stop this practice and use a different type of tether.You see mothers use them at malls all the time to keep youngsters close by.Personally I always saw them as a leash for children but in today's society it's better than having them wander off with strangers.

[tinner666]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nude and Tanned:
I don't know why you people find this so hard to believe.
I do know I am a little put off by all the charactor assination I have received.
Such as in that I have a disturbing fantasy life.
I suppose you all need to go back to talking about how much and often you all shave your genitals and I'll save my thought provoking topics for when I can be around friends.

Just say the word I'll also go you one better. I will delete my part of this topic and the rest of you can do like wise and we'll all pretend I never posted it.
Sorry that I tried to start a thread it won't happen again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I felt it was implausible, but after reading that others have seen the same thing, I feel that's it's true. I still feel that it's implausible/awkward/ to do. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/confused.gif


I'm sorry that I called you on this. I hope you accept my apology. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/blush.gif

I must admit, that the concept is wwaaaayyy beyond anything I'd ever seen or conceived any idea of. I just can't picture it. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/confused.gif

Maybe it is innocent? I don't know.

Anyway, I hope you accept my apology.

[walter05]

Alfredr

The father's mind-body-senses don't find this to be stimulating; after all it is just another body part, like an elbow or a toe, right?

>>> Are serious? To the child this could be. However, I find it hard to believe that any adult male who has been sexually active could ever consider his own penis as just another body part.

If your daughter had been in bed with you and you were naked, and she grabbed onto your penis and started to hold onto it, what would you have done? I would expect you would have found an appropriate way to have her let go. I also expect you would have found a way to get the message across that this was not normal or natural.

[aquaboy2001]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are serious? To the child this could be. However, I find it hard to believe that any adult male who has been sexually active could ever consider his own penis as just another body part. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with this. It's hard to believe there weren't times when this stimulated the dad--wanted or not.

[foux003]

This child should never have been alowed to start such a habit. When my kids were young, they sometimes slept with my wife and I. If they were sick or had a bad dream, something like this. We all always slept naked even when the kids climbed in with us. The naked bodies might have touched but there was never any groping or grabing of any sexual or reproductive parts. We did just fine without the touching.

[Bob S.]

stomper:".At 4yrs.old it's time to stop this practice and use a different type of tether.You see mothers use them at malls all the time to keep youngsters close by.Personally I always saw them as a leash for children but in today's society it's better than having them wander off with strangers."

As a side note to this conversation, I do not like those leashes. They do not teach the children anything. When parents bring their children out, it is important to watch them and make sure they know where they are. And keeping them on a voice leash is going to teach them self-discipline better than a real leash.

alfred:"The father's mind-body-senses don't find this to be stimulating; after all it is just another body part, like an elbow or a toe, right? He's just holding on to it, right? Gives him a sense of security. Why should anyone think anything about it?"

Just because a nudist doesn't mind being naked does not change biology. Now mind you, if the man had ED, it may not become erect as esily as a normal man's penis.

Bob S.

[alfredr]

Me again.

I didn't mean to say I thought this way, just that that might be how the parents thinking might have gone.

But haven't I seen "It's just another body part, like an elbow or a toe" used by naturists arguing that breasts and penises don't need to be covered up anymore than the other parts?

And, as we can become conditioned to not be stimulated by the mere sight of other naked bodies, we can also become conditioned to not find as stimulating other things that may have once turned us on. Also the context is important to whether our body responds or not.

This dad seems to have gotten far enough past any of that to where he had no concept of how it looks to outsiders. The kid should outgrow it soon anyway and what effect will making an issue of it have?

[Nudony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But haven't I seen "It's just another body part, like an elbow or a toe" used by naturists arguing that breasts and penises don't need to be covered up anymore than the other parts?

And, as we can become conditioned to not be stimulated by the mere sight of other naked bodies, we can also become conditioned to not find as stimulating other things that may have once turned us on. Also the context is important to whether our body responds or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are making a good point, neighbor. One of the most fundamental points of the nudist ideology is that breasts and genitals, at least from a biological perspective, are in essence no different from elbows or toes; and so should not be carrying this "burden of shame" that has been attributed to them by modern, "civilized" society.

But this is a philosophy developped by adults. And adults are the ones with the ability to "uncondition" themselves to reactions provoked by the sight or touch of genitals; most often by focusing off the genitals.. But the pre-teen girl who is starting to develop breasts, or the boy who is starting to grow pubic hair may not find it so easy to focus off the genitals. Hence the huge teen nudist dropout rate, which IMHO is primarily due to the inability to exercise detachment from the breasts and genitals.

As the child goes through this stage, the amount of nudity, physical contact with parents will play a part into how the child perceives his/her sexual maturation. And the last thing a parent should want is for his/her child to link sexual maturation to nudist activities. Take Freud's Oedipus or Electra complex and multiply it a few times, and that will give you an idea of the damage this could potentially cause to the child.

So where does that leave physical contact with children when nude? Of course, displays of affection or contact while playing nude are natural; and even healthy. It's the extent of the contact the parent should be aware of; because something we have taught ourselves to look beyond is a skill a child probably does not possess yet, and will take time to learn.

[Bob S.]

alfred:"But haven't I seen "It's just another body part, like an elbow or a toe" used by naturists arguing that breasts and penises don't need to be covered up anymore than the other parts?"

Exactly! The key is "covered up", or rather "not covered up." But we also acknowledge the biology of the different parts of the anatomy. Rubbing your arm for a few minutes will look a lot different than rubbing your penis for the same amount of time. A woman sucking on her thumb will be seen much differently than, well... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif

Walking and holding hands is fine, but walking and holding penises is a whole other ballgame.

alfred:"we can also become conditioned to not find as stimulating other things that may have once turned us on."

While the the simple touching of the genitals is not necessarily enough to cause an erection, especially a young boy to his father, it isn't always going to work that way. Erections happen. The boy could be tugging it in just the right way for it to become erect.

Bob S.

[alfredr]

But to outsiders, it does not look good, the dad needs to adjust his/their behaviour when out in public even if all is innocent. We wouldn't expect our kids to be allowed to pee just about anywhere in the yard when at a resort even if it might not be a big problem at home, for instance.

And the ancient Greeks and Romans(?) did sports in the nude. I wrestled in high school and wrestling nude there would definitely have been contact with the other person's genitals, probably with out causing erections. I'm thinking of the "nutcracker" move or hold. If it weren't for the uniform, there would be intimate contact, but it is not sexual by any measure. Maybe children need more contact to condition in them a view that the genitals are something more, or maybe less, than sexual parts? I know this is not the way our pedophile-phobic society thinks and would not be seen as acceptable either, but maybe that is part of the problem; we can't see anything as non-sexual at any age.

Edited for typos.

[florida-david]

nudists can be such hypocrits. On one thread, we say all body parts are equal, and than on other threads call each other names over saying the same thing. relax folks!!

Nude and Tanned, please forgive some of the people on this site that have nothing better to do than attack fellow nudists. This BS is what drives good people off this site. I had the same thing happen to me many times.

Bob S. - kid leashes should be illegal, i would rather they hold their father's penis than be seen on a leash. What's next, a shocker that zaps the kid when they get more than 5 feet away from the parent? Dog tricks instead of proper parental supervision.

foux003 - careful about sleeping in bed with kids while naked. Most courts in the US would call you a pervert and stamp your forehead with a sexual predator stamp. Simple innocent acts are fair game for the conservative "morality" running rampant in this country.

and now back on topic.... i believe the story is true. The father (and mother) should have taught the kid that grabbing his penis in public is not acceptable. The situation on the beach could be seen as "cute" but the kid having his hand up his fathers shorts in the store is too much. The father should have reacted in such a fashion that the child is reminded it is unacceptable to do that in public.

My son used to play with my wife's pubic hair when breastfeeding (and he breastfed for a long time). I think the course hair running through his fingers was relaxing for him. That practice stopped the day he grabbed a handful of hair and yanked on it. When my son was very young, he grabbed my penis to feel it and make it bounce (a fun toy, i suppose), but that practice only happened once and i made him aware that doing that to my penis was unacceptable. i shifted his attantion to his own penis and he discovered the fun of making his own bounce. He got bored with that eventually and started chasing the cat instead. My son also tried to breastfeed on my nose, but that was an error on his part. But anyways, the point is that strange things happen and it is the parent's responsibility to tell the kids right from wrong. Though i think we should all be able to handle a young child touching his father's penis, it would be better to train the kids not to do that.....

[K and C]

well said Florida David!!!

[walter05]

florida-david;

You said "When my son was very young, he grabbed my penis to feel it and make it bounce (a fun toy, i suppose), but that practice only happened once and i made him aware that doing that to my penis was unacceptable."

Your reaction is precisely the one that would be expected. It would not be normal to allow the child to develop the habit of holding onto your penis. You recogized that this was not appropriate.

You said "On one thread, we say all body parts are equal". There are 29 pages in one thread discussing nothing but erections. There are other threads that talk about erections. It is clear that nudists do not believe that all body parts are equal.

Clothed or not, this does not change.

It is possible to believe one should encourage people to be comfortable with their bodies nude. At the same time, we know that different body parts have different functions.

A man's penis has two primary functions. When soft, it is for urinating. When erect, it is for intercourse. This is not an appropriate organ for a child to hold on to.

That does not mean that a man should be embarrassed to have a penis. It does not even mean that he should be embarrassed to be nude.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You said "On one thread, we say all body parts are equal". There are 29 pages in one thread discussing nothing but erections. There are other threads that talk about erections. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nudists hardly ever talk about erections. What is there to be said?

Visitors to online message boards about nudism are obsessed with erections.

There is a difference.

-Mark