Another hospital situation

[blackrebel]

I mentor patients at a surgery center. After one my my patients had her surgery, she was in intensive care. While there, she is wearing a very loose fitting gown for easy access to tubes and what-not.

While I was visting her top over a 10 minute period had actually slipped off and she was more topless then less. I didnt say a word and we continued chatting. She started giggling and apologized that she had 'fallen out' and I told her that I was pretty much not paying attention. She joked that I see more topless women that way, and i informed her that I was a nudist and seeing an unclad body is normal for me so I didnt really think about it, forgetting that I am in a hospital as a volunteer for the hospital not as a medical staff person. This being the case I was on shaky ground as a volunteer and standards.

During the chat she came out again and this time a nurse came in during rounds and gave me a stern look at the situation. The patient laughed and told her to ease up and and told her that they were only breasts and asked the nurse why she was upset. That nurse didnt answer and we hope that this was the end of the situation.

[Pete Knight]

Unusual for a nurse to get so uptight, in my experience they are quite laid back, and make better naturists, I know of several, three or four at my club, two at a club in Australia I visit and an ex nurse who runs a non-landed naturist club I'm a member of.

I nurse new to naturism that I had the pleasure of meeting at the recent Alton Towers naturist event said she'd seen more than her fair share of "winkies and minkies" in her time, so her unabashed entry into social nudism was easy. I thought that was a quaint expression.

Pete Knight

[Yuppers]

I have spent several times in hospital and have found that the nurses are rather uncomfortable with nudity and 'encourage' their patients to remain dressed in bed. I must say that I have always been quite astounded that people working in the medical fields are so often offended by the body. This is the last place I would have expected to see such prudish attitudes.

[blackrebel]

I have spent several times in hospital and have found that the nurses are rather uncomfortable with nudity and 'encourage' their patients to remain dressed in bed. I must say that I have always been quite astounded that people working in the medical fields are so often offended by the body. This is the last place I would have expected to see such prudish attitudes.

I agree. But, I did have a couple of European medical professionals who were at ease. LOL One doc removed an IV from my groin and walked out and flung open the drapes and left me exposed to the whole ward holding gauze on my crotch. The only reason I called her back was because I didnt want to offend others. It made for a good chuckle between the 2 of us.

[TVNude]

I would agree with the other posters. I recently had a physical and, based on the prior advice of my physician, declined the standard hospital gown. His nurse said "Fine" and then proceeded to leave me, not giving me the paper drape. I didn't mind and sat there nude waiting for him. When he came in, he did get out the paper so that I could drape myself. Again, it didn't bother me either way but I was slightly amused by it all.

[Qikdraw]

When I went to get my cortizone shots in my lower back and they layed me on the table, the nurse said she was going to pull down my underwear and asked if that was ok. I just said 'sure, just don't stick anything up there'. lol

They didn't have a problem with my nudity in that setting, but when I was woken up and a different nurse was getting my clothes for me to get dressed, she seemed really shy about the whole thing.

It is weird that nurses are shy about nudity.

[Bob S.]

It may be that nurses are encouraged to keep the proper decorum for the patients. Some may do this by being overly cautious when accidental nudity (not required for medical treatment) occurs.

Also may be the case that they just don't want to be accused of any inappropriate behaviour and are ardent about keeping the patient covered.

Bob S.

[WNYjoe24]

I wonder if it is that nurses are shy about nudity or if they are overly conscious because our too paranoid society has taught them to be concerned about "privacy."


Joe

[jon71]

From my very limited experience I get the impression that it's not so much the nurses, etc. are body modest but they're alert for when the patient is. They know a certain percentage of the people they treat will be. The last time I had a colonoscopy I had to get up to use the restroom. I already had an i.v. in and was wearing one of their funny gowns. I was just going to walk to the restroom without worrying too much about what the gown covered and what it didn't. One of the nurses kind of gently reminded me to close it or maybe helped me. I don't remember specifically. I don't think she was embarrassed but they have policies geared more towards the most modest few and everyone else is expected to go along with it.

[Georgia_Nude]

I wonder if it is that nurses are shy about nudity or if they are overly conscious because our too paranoid society has taught them to be concerned about "privacy."


Joe



I would suspect it is in the same sense as massage therapists who are taught draping techniques. In many states draping guidelines and/or rules come with getting the license. Regionally this state had an issue with massage parlors being busted for not having the right intentions in mind. Teaching to keep a client draped -- regardless of what the client says or your or their personal comfort level -- prevents that.

Most massage personnel I have used, met or spoken with have been comfortable with forgoing the drape if they've seen the client enough times to know it's not some pervert or idiot they're dealing with. I suspect nurses are taught in a similar fashion in regards to modesty and a client/patient.

[Procrastinator]

I may have posted this link before.

A physician has a medical ethics blog. A discussion about patient modesty has been ongoing since August 2005. The original thread is here (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2005/08/naked.html#comments) . It had 395 comments when it was closed. The discussion continues here (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2007/12/patient-modesty-volume-2.html#comments). So far that one has an astounding 1,499 comments, in six volumes.

It seems to be quite a popular subject, not just in nudist circles!

Joe

[narod]

I"ve experienced all sides of this from four different times in the hospital or at doctor's offices.
At my dermitologist's office, the doctor (male) is very guarded about nudity. I don't understand this, because he's to be checking every square inch of my body, because I have had 4 melinomas removed. He missed the stage three melinoma, that caused the removal of lymph nodes, and all the followup.
At one hosptal, when I was there for the follow up after the removal of a stage three Melinoma, there was no problem with nudity with the nurses or the doctors. In fact, as they were tracing my lymph nodes in the area of the Melinoma, they brought a class of pre-med students (male and female) in, to watch, as an intern (male), was, literally, laying on top of me drawing marks in my arm pit, and the supervising doctor (female) was tracing the radiation on the computer. I was on the table, completely nude.
At the hospital in my home town, when I had to abdominal hernias repaired, they were getting me ready for surgery, and they gave me two gowns to put on. I ask if I needed them, since they would just take them off me for the surgery, and the nurses said if it were their call, they would say no. However, even though I would be under a cover, they are not allowed to move patients in the hall, without a gown on.
My last hospital stay, after being hit by a hit and run driver while I was riding my road/racing bicycle, The ambulance people cut my skin suit off as they loaded me into the ambulance. I remained nude for three days, in the Trauma Center. They had a sheet on my bed, but because of all the wires and tubes, I was uncovered most of the time. The staff ask If I minded if they kept me nude. I said no. They said it was so much easier for them and would be much easier on me If they didn't have to "mess" with gowns, etc, since I was back and forth constantly to CAT Scans, etc. I had male and female nurses, and both male and female doctors and neursurgeons during this stay. The first time they left me get out of bed to go to the bathroom, two male nurses took me out in the hall (nude), to the Bathroom. Finally, when the physical therapy Department came to take me out to teach me how to do steps on crutches, the male nurses came in and said they had to put a gown on me to go out through the hall and practice stairs on the crutches. This was at the same, very large, hospital that I had the follow up surgery from the melinoma.
At my Primary Doctor's office (he is a former student of mine, and, also, a road cyclist) nudity is no problem. I guess I was the one who had to adjust, since my doctor is a former student. We had a really good long laugh about it when I first went to him. Since then, three more of my former students (one policeman - from the day of the cycling accident, the physician's assisant at the local hospital at the time of my hernias and at the time of the cycling accident, and the head triage nurse at the time of my hernias) have seen me nude. We all laugh about it, but with my doctor and all these other guys, it's sort of become a bond. They were all great students, and all of them checked in after the cycling accident to see how I was recovering. The Policeman even came back to visit me in full uniform and in his patrol car.

[Navigator]

Several years ago I was in and out of two hospitals several times over an 8 month period. Fortunately they fixed me up and I'm back to normal now.

At the time, I had never been in a hospital before in all my 58 years, so I didn't know what to expect. But, we have a nudist friend who has been in hospitals several times and had told us that she never wears that backless gown they give you.

So...I didn't wear it either and I found out that nobody cared or even mentioned it. One of the hospitals I was in didn't even have a gown in the room when I checked in and didn't offer me one until about the 3rd day I was there. I just said no thanks, I'm comfortable, and the nurse told me that really makes it easier for the Doctors and nurses but that most people aren't confident enough to go without the gown.

They did bring me a gown to wear every time I had to be wheeled through the hospital hallways to get x-rays and scans. But the rest of the time, usually in bed under a sheet, but not always, I went without it and the Dr's and nurses came into my room all the time to run tests or check me or weigh me or feed me or give me medicine or get me to exercise or kick me out of bed to change the sheets etc. etc. and no one said a word about me not wearing the gown.

I remember my very first night in the hospital two nurses came into my room at 4 AM and woke me up to get me out of bed to weigh me and take blood for lab tests. I had been sound asleep under the sheet and I told them I didn't have a gown on. They said no problem, we're all very professional here and we don't worry about that.

I was told numerous times by Doctors and Nurses and friends that attitude is everything when healing from a serious illness...and I believe it after my experience.

That whole experience was not fun, (I would MUCH rather have been sailing naked) but I firmly believe that my ability to be comfortable in the hospital, without having to wear that silly backless gown that bunches up around you when you sleep, went a long way toward building up my morale, keeping my spirits up, giving me a positive attitude about the experience and thereby helping the healing process.

[Ken Palmer]

Hey Black Rebel. Do you think the nurse could have been upset because she was exposed and there was not a female nurse present with you during that time? I understand that if it is a female patient, a female nurse must be present if the doctor or staff member is a male. I certainly hope that nothing more will become of this situation.

Ken Palmer




I mentor patients at a surgery center. After one my my patients had her surgery, she was in intensive care. While there, she is wearing a very loose fitting gown for easy access to tubes and what-not.

While I was visting her top over a 10 minute period had actually slipped off and she was more topless then less. I didnt say a word and we continued chatting. She started giggling and apologized that she had 'fallen out' and I told her that I was pretty much not paying attention. She joked that I see more topless women that way, and i informed her that I was a nudist and seeing an unclad body is normal for me so I didnt really think about it, forgetting that I am in a hospital as a volunteer for the hospital not as a medical staff person. This being the case I was on shaky ground as a volunteer and standards.

During the chat she came out again and this time a nurse came in during rounds and gave me a stern look at the situation. The patient laughed and told her to ease up and and told her that they were only breasts and asked the nurse why she was upset. That nurse didnt answer and we hope that this was the end of the situation.

[hickory1945]

About 15 years ago I went in for a test, to check for blood vessel clogs. Sorry can't think of the name of the test.
They insert the little device in your leg up near the groin area. After it was over they put me in a hall way to watch the incision for a short while. It was a hallway in the surgical area so traffic was rather restricted. I laid there the whole time completely uncovered. That didn't bother but I sure got cold laying there. They keep those areas pretty cool to accomodate the doctors and nurses.
Hickory

[blackrebel]

Hey Black Rebel. Do you think the nurse could have been upset because she was exposed and there was not a female nurse present with you during that time? I understand that if it is a female patient, a female nurse must be present if the doctor or staff member is a male. I certainly hope that nothing more will become of this situation.

Ken Palmer

Ken, I think that you are on target with that one. I will be more careful if this occurs again.

[Smiley]

I was hopitalized several years ago after an operation for bladder cancer. I had a catheter and all night, nurses came and went changing the drainage bag. Needless to say, I was kept pretty exposed. None of the nurses seemed bothered by my nudity. .and I can tell you, I lost ALL sense of modesty that night. Since then, I've been in the hospital several times and skinning down to get dressed/undressed with doctors and nurses present doesn't bother me a bit. .nor does it seem to bother them either.

I'm nude in the house most times and outside, the weather or whatever I'm doing dictates what I wear. .or don't. I'm in a pretty rural area here so the thought of someone seeing me doesn't bother me. Occasionally in summer I'll wander down to the creek below the house to cool off, nude of course.

[connorsdad]

It was a bad decision for you to state that you were a nudist to someone in the hospital while you are a volunteer! What were you thinking? If she felt uncomfortable with that, you could have faced charges.

[blackrebel]

It was a bad decision for you to state that you were a nudist to someone in the hospital while you are a volunteer! What were you thinking? If she felt uncomfortable with that, you could have faced charges.

Remember, she was at ease and joked about it before I mentioned. BUT I do have to remember that people are not like US and have to show some smarts if this comes up again.

Last year I went for an MRI a muslim woman patient came in for one also, covered from head to toe in her cultural attire. I remembered trying to respect their customs and not be in the same area as she was when her husband was not there.

[Lilwilly]

Recently I went to the dermatologist for my scheduled appointment to check my skin for sun damage. My dermatologist is a nice woman in her early 50’s. I know from female friends who go to her that she has them strip naked and checks every inch of their skin. I have been going to her for almost 3 years now and she has never done that. She checks me with my shirt off and looks at my legs if I have shorts on. I decided I would try for the full check when I went today, but I was unsure if I would have the nerve to do it. I really couldn’t tell whether she didn’t check me nude because she was uncomfortable or if she thought I would be uncomfortable.

When the nurse took me to the examining room she told me to take my shirt off and the doctor would be in soon. When the doctor came in she examined my head and face first and zapped some spots with the liquid nitrogen. Then she checked me down to the waist. Next she had me pull my shorts up to look at my legs. At this point I decided it was now or never. I said “I don’t think I have mentioned it before but I am a bit of a nudist and have been most of my life so I there isn’t any part of me that hasn’t been exposed to the sun over the years.”

She said, “we can check that now if you like.” I said I thought it would be a good idea. First she had me take off my shorts and examined me in my briefs. She asked if there were any spots I was aware of. I said no, but I was unsure of what I should be looking for, that way I was hoping to convince her to look further. With my back to her she said to pull down my shorts, or take them off if I liked. With that, I just dropped them to the floor and stepped out of them. Then she had me turn and face her and told me to move the scrotum to one side with my finger, then do the other side. I said there was one spot I wondered about and then proceeded to try and find it. After a bit of fumbling I did, by rolling back the foreskin and exposing the underside, (as well as the head of my penis). She told me it was a discoloration from the vein and that it was ok. She continued to talk about what I should look for while I stood there about 1 meter in front of her still nude. I was very comfortable with the situation and in no hurry to start dressing. Finally at a break in the discussion I picked up my clothes and got dressed while she continued to talk.

After a short discussion on my treatment and next appointment, my session was over and she left. Thinking back on it, I am amazed at how relaxed and comfortable I was while being examined. I was not nervous, excited or the least bit aroused.

[pahjo2]

A couple of years ago my wife was in the hospital for a couple of weeks. During her stay she had a nurse who was from the middle east. This nurse told my wife she had to have a gown or something to sleep in. My wife told the nurse that she always sleep in the nude & ask another nurse if there was a policy about sleeping nude. The answer was no
but please cover up when she got up as not to offend the other patience. I can only guess it was because of different cultures.
Stay Nude And Stay Happy--I'm Always Happier When I'm Nude---Pahjo2

[usuallylurk]

The best line I ever heard -- in an episode of Happy Days, where some men were getting their army pre-induction physicals, and they were being examined by a female doctor -

"If I see anything I haven't seen before, I'll shoot it."

Anyone who's gone through medical training -- male or female, physician, nurse, osteopath, etc. etc. has been through anatomy. It SHOULDN'T be a problem for them. The reason for the hospital "johnnies" is your own modesty -- and they don't know how you'll react to nudity.

[vanesa1017]

Two months ago i had an ultrasound on a few parts of my body, abdomen, breasts and thigh because of some lumps that i felt. Luckily none of them are cancerous but I did not know that at the time. So during my ultrasound I was completely nude on an examining table, slathered in the clear warming ultrasound gel (goo) with two technicians examining me. One was male and the other was female.

I didn't mind the nude aspect of the situation, I wanted to learn a diagnosis and was and am quite comfortable nude, the aspect that bothered me was when the male technician needed to retrieve something from another room he left the door wide open, thus whoever was walking through the hall could look in and see me nude and in the middle of a test. The door was open for a good two or three minutes, and people certainly did walk by. Most didn't look in but a few did glance in. I wasn't really uncomfortable, I just thought it was in poor taste to leave the door open. In hindsight I should have asked for the door to be shut, but I didn't at the time.

Like I said, luckily the lumps are cancer free, but it still was an odd medical experience.

[jon71]

I'm very glad you're healthy Vanessa. It does sound strange to me. I suppose the guy just wasn't thinking. You did deserve more consideration.

[Boreas]

I'm very glad you're healthy Vanessa. It does sound strange to me. I suppose the guy just wasn't thinking. You did deserve more consideration.

I agree. More than that, it was VERY unprofessional to leave you exposed like that. Health professionals have a certain amount of power. Because of this, they really need to equalize the situation a bit by doing things like covering their patients and helping them to be modest and comfortable. It does not matter how comfortable a person is with nudity, they are vulnerable and need to be considered. I am very comfortable with nudity. I would not be very comfortable in the situation Vanessa described.

Vanessa, I am glad all turned out well for you too!

[Qikdraw]

Vanesa,

Glad to hear you are all right. :)

But yeah, the medical guy was unprofessional when he left the door open like that. :(

[KNude]

I went to my PCP for a derm exam because I am exposed all over to the strong NM sun during the summer. I was not satified with her glance that told me the spots were just age spots. That didn't feel right to me. I then scheduled an appointment with a dermatologist. That exam was a little better, he froze one area and biopsied another spot. He still not seem to be very thorough or inspect all areas of body. I am considering making an appointment with another and see if I can get a more thorough exam.

[vanesa1017]

Thanks for the positive health comments everyone. I too am ecstatic that they aren't anything to be concerned with. Again, I probably should have asked the female technician to shut the door because the male one was clearly in la la land.

[Boreas]

Again, I probably should have asked the female technician to shut the door because the male one was clearly in la la land.

You do have that option! Now you know in case you have the misfortune to experience such an event again!

[vanesa1017]

You do have that option! Now you know in case you have the misfortune to experience such an event again!

So true Boreas, I will be much more proactive with my doctor visits. A good lesson learned. :)

[Smiley]

While medical professionals and doctors may seem to be so aloof about treating us, they seem to forget WE hired THEM for their expertise. If there's any question or discomfort about what's going on, don't hesitate to tell 'em about it. Most will appreciate it. . .

[Boreas]

While medical professionals and doctors may seem to be so aloof about treating us, they seem to forget WE hired THEM for their expertise. If there's any question or discomfort about what's going on, don't hesitate to tell 'em about it. Most will appreciate it. . .

I agree. And generally that is why they are actually concerned about our dignity and comfort. Most are aware they are doing things to cause us discomfort and will try to make it more comfortable for us. Of course, some are burned out or whatever and forget their professionalism.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

I am not a nudist but as a physician and teacher of medical students, I am interested in patient modesty. My Bioethics Discussion Blog has had threads on patient modesty for the past 3 1/2 years with over a thousand comments..but none apparently from those in the clothes free culture. I encourage members of this website to contribute their views of patient modesty, either agreeing with or having a different view as compared with those who have written to my threads. The current thread is "Patient Modesty: Volume 9. (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/02/patient-modesty-volume-9.html#comments)..Maurice.

[Fresh Air]

There are different aspects about comfort of a patient being nude or not, from patient and health care provider perspectives. There are actually exhibitionist type patients who are 'comfortable' being nude, but tend to make staff feel uncomfortable, even staff who are otherwise comfortable with nudity (and nearly all health care workers are). It should be understandable that this type would be encouraged to either keep clothed or be clothed when appropriate.

I also think being a nudist helps in regards to phobias of being nude, but feeling comfortable nude in various situations is different for everyone and varies with the situations. I haven't noticed that someone has to be a nudist to be void of body shame.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

I appreciate Fresh Air's comments. I agree that most doctors are comfortable with degrees of undress of their patients, though I think some are not (similar to the discomfort of first and second year medical students.) What doctors are probably most concerned about with regard to undress is any associated behavior of sexual seduction by the patient. The seductive patient is an important professional issue that can challenge both the medical student and the practicing physician. Physicians, male or female, are human beings with their own sexual drives which under the professional codes and societal laws and simply ethical behavior clearly restrict doctors from acting on those drives. Therefore if patients, and some do, use their degrees of undress to attempt to manipulate the doctor by seductive behavior for one reason or another, this should be recognized and mitigated.

I want to thank 2 visitors apparently from this website who have already contributed to my blog thread. More are certainly welcome To me, this is very important if we all want to get the full picture regarding the dynamics or mechanism in patient physical modesty. ..Maurice.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

I provided, in my previous posting, a link to the current volume of the topic patient modesty. However, for those members here who would like to read from the beginning of the topic started in August 2005, here is the link to the first thread titled "Naked" (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2005/08/naked.html#comments). You can then migrate to the subsequent threads using the links provided in the threads.

The title "Naked" was, in fact, the title of an article written in the Perspective section of the New England Journal of Medicine August 18, 2005 issue by Atui Gawande. M.D. Dr. Gawande who was two years out of his surgical residency and has had the opportunity to talk with physicians who have practiced in other cultures around the world describing how the concern of modesty is handled in their country. He also discusses his own initial reaction about how he should examine a patient with strict attention to patient modesty such as avoiding the patient using a gown and simply or not so simply moving around the clothing. This action clearly became awkward and he resorted to gowned patients. Finally after noting the real professional problems of physician sexual misconduct but also false patient accusations due to misinterpretation, he concludes that explicit standards of what is a “normal” physical examination be set up or tightened so that both doctors and patients know and better doctor-patient relationships can be established.

Anyway, that is how the thread started with complaints by visitors at first expressing concerns about both male and female patients having their bodies being exposed "unnecessarily" during the pre-op and during surgery without their consent. In later volumes there was repeated concern about male patients not being given the choice of gender selection for those who would be looking at their bodies compared with female patients. Throughout the treads has been discussion of how to make doctors and institutions aware of the concerns about modesty and change the system. I think I have written enough here and eagerly await your comments both here and on my blog.

Thanks to the moderators here for allowing me to participate. ..Maurice.

[David77]

Eight years ago, when I was in the doctor's office, I ageed to have my (male) doctor eventually to put a catheter from my groin (near my penis) up into my heart, so that the heart arteries could be read on the screen.

I supose that he wondered how I would react to this "intimate invasion of pubic privacy", so he yanked down my under-shorts and immediately took my pulse. He undoubedly saw that my pulse did not change much, signaling that my genitals on his plain view really did not bother me.
I think that this was in consideration for the patient (me) for the future exam, when I would be laying out on the operating table, fully conscious, and with my genitals exposed.

When that day came in the operating room, there was a male and a female nurse. The female nurse shaved my pubic hair. (I don't care if it is a male or female nurse doing the shaving) Later, after the entire proceedure, the female nurse had to compress, with her hand, my incision which was next to my penis. I needed the urinal but I had to lye quitely, so the male nurse pinched together my penis skin on top so as to direct it into the urinal.

Before this medical proceedure, I had gone to a number of nudist resorts and Haulover beach, so I was accustomed to having my genitals exposed. This made the "exposure part" of the medical proceedure rather psychologically easy.
However, I would have disliked to have the door open for everyone passing by getting a glimpse.

Also, I am rather insulted when anyone (medical or otherwise) is careless and inconsiderate of me as if I would not deserves common human consideration - in any setting.

[Oldman]

My wife, probably due to the fact that she has spent most of her life in and out of hospitals, doesn't really worry about who looks or sees her nude. She tends to be amused at the antics of doctors, nurses and others as they scurry about trying to keep her covered and modest during examinations or bed baths etc. During the last medical situation, she was released from hospital with followup homecare by PSWs for her personal care at home. During that time, we were living at our nudist club where I manage the club. The hardest problem was finding PSWs that were comfortable entering the grounds of the club. The easiest shower facility in the club for her to use(she was back to a wheelchair for a month or so) was the public shower in the clubhouse. It is designed to allow wheelchairs to roll straight in and big enough for several people to use at once. We had to go through 4 or 5 PSWs before we found one who didn't mind working in that environment.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

I just had to return to this website today to thank all those who started writing their experiences and views to my blog thread on patient modesty. Of course, I hope many of you will stick around and help guide the conversation after some of my regular thread visitors get to read your postings and then return comment.

But, you know, I think based on all of what you have written, I am convinced that your comments will be highly therapeutic for some of my thread visitors who actually state that they have or will delay necessary examination or treatments because they can't find healthcare providers who will follow every step of their requests. I have repeatedly over these 3 1/2 years, advised them rather than to steam about and ventilate on my blog what they find is a defect in the medical care system with regard to professional attention to their modesty requests, they should, if they find this important, to get together and become activistic and bring these matters up as a group to physician groups and institutions or even the government. I thought my suggestions were somewhat therapeutic. However, if what I read in your comments on my blog is valid, perhaps the most therapeutic suggestion is that they should seriously think of gradually engaging in the naturist clothes off culture! Perhaps starting by simply coming to this website. Anyway, enough said. Again thank you.. and please return, you have shown a light into the darkness of some of discussion going on in my patient modesty threads. ..Maurice.

[usuallylurk]

Dr. Mo---

Perhaps you can repay the favor -- how about spending an afternoon at a nudist resort, doing a skin cancer screening for the members there?

(no apology for the informal addressing !!! That's the way it is when you enter a nudist environment like this -- we drop our titles, and formalities, when we enter the nudist or naturist realm!)

By the way, my daughter is going through intense education to become a physicians' assistant. I think her nudist background not only allowed her to view people that are "different" (missing limbs, surgical scars, etc.) with a great degree of normalcy - but it will extend into, and benefit her new career.

'lurk

[reggie1]

I have been treated for cancer twice in the last 5yrs so have undergone lots of testing, scans and physicals and have never been much worried about being nude when doing them(of course they allways give you that funny cover up LOL) I think it's more a matter of protocal the the nurses and doctors being uncomfortable with the nude body, they need to take care everyones privacy.

[David77]

I think it's more a matter of protocal the the nurses and doctors being uncomfortable with the nude body, they need to take care everyones privacy.

In our local hospital it is one of the cardinal rules for staff to honor the privacy concerns of the patient as much as possible.

[Home Nudist]

My late Mother and Grandmother, who were very modest and far from being nudists, used to say that when you are sick and in need of care in a hospital setting, you don't care WHO sees you!

I think that's a healthy attitude. I feel very sorry for people to whom modesty is a serious issue in those circumstances. It only makes a difficult situation all the more difficult.

[Christian]

My mother has been undergoing treatment for cancer and about 12 days ago she got sick and we had to take her to the hospital where she stayed for 10 days. Anyway, she was in the ER first and lemme tell you, I never really thought about seeing my mom naked however in that little ER room nobody cares! Later, to lift her spirits, I told her she looked great and at 52 she should be happy that she doesn't have to deal with sagging! :-) She got a kick out of that. So, yeah, during the time in ER and intensive care the gown kept coming off or she would move around in bed and there was her butt and eventually it just became normal. Nobody on the medical staff seemed concerned and neither were we. You just get used to it. It's funny, though, that I have been to nude beaches and been nude with friends at their homes but I never thought about seeing my close family members nude. You'll be surprised to know that they are just people too. :p

[David77]

My late Mother and Grandmother, who were very modest and far from being nudists, used to say that when you are sick and in need of care in a hospital setting, you don't care WHO sees you!

They used to say when I was young years ago;
"Wear clean (presentable) underwear - in case you have to be taken to the hospital".

[Boreas]

They used to say when I was young years ago;
"Wear clean (presentable) underwear - in case you have to be taken to the hospital".

My mother was a nurse, so we did not get that line. She always thought that was funny because the healthcare folks have better things to think of than people's underwear!

[walter05]

One time I went to Grady Hospital in Atlanta to see someone. He was in a large open, divided with curtains, ICU ward. The ward was right behind the Level 1 Trauma Center.

On my way in, I saw a man who was naked. He had tubes for draining waste out of both holes. He had something over his face so he could not speak.

There were families, different ages and sexes walking past him.

I saw a towel, took it and covered his private parts. The look on his face was incredible.

David made a great point. Even if someone is not bothered by nudity. It is dehumanizing to act as if somone else does not matter. Just leaving that man nude as if it made no difference was wrong.

I imagine that an emergency came up and the nurses and doctors ran to it. I am sure it was an oversight leaving that man nude in the open.

In this case the medical workers failed to treat him as a human being. His nudity was dehumanizing and in that case it is wrong.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

To answer UsuallyLurk request: 1) I am not a dermatologist but I suppose as internal medicine I could suspect a skin lesion. 2) I am not a nudist so if I came it would be to a C/O environment, not only to protect my own modesty but also because it would not be professional to examine all parts of the member's nude body without my wearing clothing--in fact, this could easily cause me to lose my physician's license. 3) I don't have statistics at hand to answer the question as to whether nudists have increased risk of melanoma or squamous cell carcinoma of the skin compared with non-nudists--even with UV protection. If there was increased incidence, is the motivation to be long hours undressed worth the risk of, if not death then otherwise expensive and perhaps some disfiguring treatment to prevent spread and death? Remember, if a doctor does that screening exam at the nudist gathering and picks up a malignancy, the malignancy is already present and is no longer something to protect against.

I find that I am getting visitors from this website but many are not writing on my blog. To me it is great that you are coming to read.. but what we need to help educate the group of visitors there who wear clothes about another philosophy that you have and they do not. As I have previously noted, it would be therapeutic for them to have this education in thinking over their own modesty concerns. Please come..but WRITE. And to those who already have written..come back and read the responses and write again. ..Maurice.

Here is link to Volume 9 of Patient Modesty (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/02/patient-modesty-volume-9.html#comments)

[David77]

And to those who already have written..come back and read the responses and write again. ..Maurice.

OK. Will do!
A few months ago, the urologist entered a scope up my penis to take a look around at several organs. (All was ok). I was surprised at how (almost?) painless it was. I did not (as the young people would say) "freak out" about my genitals being exposed. This urologist undoubtedly has seen many thousands of genitals, and I have been seen nude many times and many days with my genitals exposed at nudist venues. So the doctor and I were both accustomed to the sight of genitalia, so his sight of my genitals was no problems for me.

Also, last year, a very young nurse came into my hospital room one evening and inserted a catheter up my penis. The next morning the urologist came into my room and took a look at my genitals and said, "What is this (catheter) for"? I said, "I have no idea". He then replied that it would be removed right away. The same nurse came in and removed the catheter.

I have two complaints'
1) The nurse should have read the chart thoroughly and she would have seen that the doctor did not order this catheter to be inserted. Or, God forbid, could it be that since she was doing ths unnecessarily, was she getting some kind of sexual kick by her bad action? I will not think in this uncomplimentary manner and just say that it was an "error".
2) I did not appreciate the crude, uncomplimentary statement she uttered concerning my penis as she was putting the catheter in.

When I was around 13 years old, I went to the doctor and, at one point, he asked me to pull down my pants. He had the sensitivity to look out the window while I pulled down my pants.
I was not accustomed to anyone viewing my genitals and I came from a prudish family, so it was an extremely painful experence for me for him view my genitals.

Many younger teen-age boys at nudist resorts like to keep their pants on because they become embarassed at their freguent erections. Even though it may be a rule at a nudist resort that all become nude, it seems that most persons are understanding about the teen-ager's feeling and situation and do not force him to remove his pants.

When I remember how tramatic it was for me at age 13 at the doctor's office, I can certainly empathize.

We had no shower facilities at high school and I did not become comfortable being nude around men until I later joined the YMCA. In those days, YMCA's required all the men to swim in the nude. (However, before this, as a young teen-ager, I went skinny dipping twice with my cousin who was my age, although I was still rather shy).

I got accustomed for a woman seeing me nude when I married. Thus when I went to nudist venues, I transfered this improved attituide to every woman there seeing me nude.

I am now age 83 and lost some muscle mass and elasticity of flesh, and have some scars from operations, but I stll expect to travel to one or two nudist venues this summer on vacation. Even so, I do not expect to have any embarrassment about my body them. One indication of this is, I still sometimes converse nude with friends in my home and "have no body issues".

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

David77, my comment here has nothing to do with nudity or patient modesty but in response to your experience with that nurse and catheter, I want to caution you and everyone else reading this that, believe it or not, patients must also, if they can, be observant and monitor what is about to be done to them for their own protection. From getting pills from the nurse, to getting an injection or having a Foley cathether inserted, the patient must refuse to take the pill, to get the injection and refuse to have the Foley inserted if the patient was not aware by communication from the doctor that these "invasive" procedures were to be carried out. With regard to pills and injections, the patient must require the nurse to name the medication. If the patient was not previously told about that specific medication by the doctor, the patient should have the nurse check the chart or check with the doctor for confirmation. The same would apply for inserting a Foley catheter. The patient should have been told before hand by the doctor what would occur. If the patient is unaware, the patient should refuse and the doctor should be notified and talk to the patient. All of what I have written deals with patient safety. And you can easily see to what disadvantage with regard to patient safety exists if the patient is unconscious or has for one reason or another no capacity to monitor what is happening to him or her. A patient has every right to refuse any treatment for which the patient was not previously informed. For those on this website who didn't know about this, I hope what I wrote will prevent a hospital mistake, trivial or serious. ..Maurice.

[David77]

M.B. M.D.
Thank you. Good, needed, explanation.

[Running Bear]

To answer UsuallyLurk request:... not only to protect my own modesty but also because it would not be professional to examine all parts of the member's nude body without my wearing clothing--in fact, this could easily cause me to lose my physician's license.

You are mistaken. I would like to comment that your professional insurance charges you to maintain professional standards. There is nothing unprofessional in treating a patient where both of you are naked.

A member of the cloth [;-)] gives a naked service at my local club most certainly highly professional. I myself have treated a patient naked and she was naked as well. The patient presented with a swollen knee. On examination I detected a tick which I removed using my equipment that I was carrying in my car. My insurance will cover me for maintaining professional standards by sterility, patient consent, appropriate treatment. The presence or absence of clothing in a naturist environment makes no difference to my professional skills. Do you lose your insurance just because you wear a Star Trek tie? Of course not. I also treated some abraded genitals on a long distance walker. In this situation it was textile but the man's problem was so acute that he had no concerns over his mates (of both sexes) being present during the examination and treatment. It was on open moorland. Here the example of 'maintaining patient modesty' has to be amended due to the available options. In the medical records a statement would be made explaining the judgement used in each case, That is standard medical protocol. ie: patient treated in public due to no available cover. Patient happy to agree to this." or "patient treated in naturist club". In the latter I see no need to note anything more since by being in a naturist club is is implied that neither of us would be wearing clothes.

I have a comment. If a naturist girl requested treatment from me and I put some clothes on to treat her, she could make a valid claim that I was inappropriately dressed and creating an offence. It would be interesting to observe the jurors take on this but it is no different than the other way around. A naturist girl would be deeply offended if I dressed since she would feel I am being sexual by wearing kinky clothes. Being naked I am honest.

In teaching yoga I claim that if either of us are dressed I am not fulfilling my duty of care. Since I am able to directly observe spinal alignment and demonstrate pelvic motion perfectly. Wearing clothes can be perceived as an unacceptable risk to the safe practice of yoga (and practice of medicine). Compromising patient or students safety because of an irrational desire to wear clothes is medically unsafe.

Podiatric Surgeon / Yoga teacher

</podiatric>

[walter05]

One time, my grandfather was in the hospital for some tests. He was 96. The nurse came with a mecication. He refused to take it. He wanted to talk to his doctor first.

The nurse wanted me to convince him to take it. I said he is an adult and has chosen to wait for the doctor.

My grand father was supposed to be taking a mild blood thinner. The pill turned out to be a medication for causing the blood to thicken. If he had not insisted it could have killed him.

In our family, we established the practice that if a member of the family is in the hospital, someone else is there at all times. This is to make sure that we can help protect that family member from mistakes.

P.S. Another thing we do is get a bag of Hershey's miniatures and another bag of candy. We then keep them in a bowl and make sure all of the nurses know that they are available. They come in from time to time for a piece of candy. While in there, the family member is getting extra attention.

[David77]

When talking about genital modesty, I must say that my long-time friend had what I would call "involuntary modesty". Some call it by its nikname, "bashful bladder syndrome". This malody is the inability to urinate (start the flow) when anyone could possibly see his penis.

Therefore, whenever he entered a men's restroom he would head for the commode stall to urinate, instead of go to the urinal. In his latter days, he went to a clinical psychologist trying to rid himself of this "handicap", but I do not know whether he had any success.

He was in the army for a few years, but I did not ask him how he managed to urinate there in privacy. (I shudder to think that he had to keep himself from urinating for a very long time, until no one was in sight).

This same friend, who said he had a large penis, had his postate removed by the surgeon putting the surgical instrument up his penis. He said that no abdominal incision was made and no abdominal scar.

[Navigator]

One time, my grandfather was in the hospital for some tests. He was 96. The nurse came with a mecication. He refused to take it. He wanted to talk to his doctor first.....

......The pill turned out to be a medication for causing the blood to thicken. If he had not insisted it could have killed him.


In the fall of 2006 a doctor recommended that I allow him to remove my spleen...in fact he tried to sell me on the idea...in fact he all but insisted that I have him do the operation.

I didn't think he had done enough research about the underlying problem and told him so. Then I told him to get me an appointment with the top specialist at a nearby hospital that I thought was the best hospital in the area...which he did.

To make a long story short....I'm only alive and healthy today because I refused his recommendation and went to the specialist. If I had taken his advice and let him remove my spleen I would have been too weak to fight the underlying problem, when we found out what it was, and treatment for the underlying problem would have been delayed long enough to make it impossible to treat successfully. I would have been dead by the summer of 2007.

I'm a firm believer in patients taking responsibility for their treatment. Always, always, always, get a second opinion on anything serious and do LOTS of research on the internet before your meetings with doctors.

And, as Walter points out, always know what drugs you're being given and why...and check to make sure that what you're supposed to get is what you're actually getting, or have a relative do it for you.

And one more thing....I still have my nice healthy spleen.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Running Bear, I don't want you to think I am trying to ignore you but I need a bit of time to research the facts with regarding whether a physician would be considered professionally unethical and risk losing a medical license by examining or treating a nude patient in a nudist environment in the nude. You state otherwise. This is an important issue even in more general terms. The question is whether the laws and ethics involved in the professional behavior within one culture (example: clothes on) is altered if the professional is performing his or her duties within another culture (example: clothes free). This could apply to situations such as a Muslim physician or student from a Muslim country practicing or learning with the medical culture of the United States. ..Maurice.

[Running Bear]

MB
Moral issues are well illustrated in this gynaecological examination from history where the doctor looks away and examines the patient fully dressed!
I was at a clothing optional event and a textile journalist arrived and undressed for the first time. She felt a little awkward when she was dressed while everybody else was naked. There would have been no concerns that she was acting inappropriately and would not be covered by her journalists insurance. It applies to many professions and jobs carried out in a naturist environment.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2064/250pxgynaecology1822qi1.jpg

[David77]

Running Bare,
A number of sources state that the photo that you have included with your post (above) is depicting the old fashioned treatment for women's hysteria.
Here is the theory and history,

They considered hysteria is “womb furie”. "Hippocrates thought the womb wasn't a fixed item but wandered about the body looking for trouble. At the moment of orgasm, it gripped the windpipe causing the breathless panting so familiar to watchers of When Harry Met Sally. From earliest times there was a recognised women's complaint characterised by nervousness, fluid retention, insomnia and lack of appetite. Hippocrates thought that a blockage in the womb was the cause of it, hence it was called hysteria from the Greek for womb (hysteros). Galen, a Greek physician, claimed it was caused by sexual deprivation, particularly in passionate women, and was noted in nuns, virgins, widows and occasionally in married women whose husbands were not up to the job.
Massage to “paroxysm” was the ticket. “Arising from the touch of the genital organs required by the treatment, there follows twitchings accompanied at the same time by pain and pleasure...from that time she is free of all the evil she felt,” proclaimed Galen.
The trouble was that doctors regarded this treatment as numbingly tedious. Bringing a woman to paroxysm by hand could, understandably, take for ever. It was a job that required stamina and not a little patience."
Some patients returned for more of the same treatment by the doctor.

[Running Bear]

I am aware of the 'wandering womb' theory of hysteria. This is an historical image that we must interpret. My theory is that it shows a doctor examining a female patient respectfully covered and averting his gaze to the side. This seems more likely than an attempt to manipulate the genitals to treat hysteria. However either interpretation could be valid.
Below is a link to the images source.
http://www.answers.com/topic/gynaecology-1

[Fitz1980]

The trouble was that doctors regarded this treatment as numbingly tedious. Bringing a woman to paroxysm by hand could, understandably, take for ever. It was a job that required stamina and not a little patience."
Some patients returned for more of the same treatment by the doctor.

Don't forget the best part of that story. So they invented a vibrating machine to be used in the treatment of hysteria. Unsurprisingly cases of "hysterical women" who needed such "treatment" skyrocketed.

[David77]

Don't forget the best part of that story. So they invented a vibrating machine to be used in the treatment of hysteria. Unsurprisingly cases of "hysterical women" who needed such "treatment" skyrocketed.
Yes, in England, George Taylor inventer the first steam powered vibrator in 1869 for the doctor to use.
They also had wind-up vibrators as well as powerful water sprays directed accuratley to accomplish this treatment.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

RunningBear, my concerns expressed here was never about insurance but about medical licensure and unprofessional behavior as dictated by the decisions of the American Medical Association ethics panel. I presented those concerns to a bioethics listserv that is comprised of physicians, philosophers and lawyers among others (any naturists, I just don't know). In any event, it seems that there are no rules or laws which would prevent a physician from an activity such as, while nude, performing voluntary examination on unclothed others. The decision whether to be dressed or undressed would be with the physician and the comfort of those which he or she was examining. So I was wrong in what I had assumed and written.

Finally, I want to publicly thank here a visitor to my blog thread on patient modesty (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/02/patient-modesty-volume-9.html) identified as CSM who came from this website. The commentary was excellent and I'm sure provided important insight to my long term visitors. ..Maurice.

[David77]

Finally, I want to publicly thank here a visitor to my blog thread on patient modesty (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/02/patient-modesty-volume-9.html) identified as CSM who came from this website. The commentary was excellent and I'm sure provided important insight to my long term visitors. ..Maurice.

Also, my thanks to CSM for the excellent posts. (Incidentally, I do not know who is CSM, out of the very many members of this forum).

Why don't hospitals create pamphlets like this for patients -- pamphlets that assure patients that staffs are aware of their modesty concerns

At the beginning of our hospital stay in our local hospital, we are issued pamphlets assuring us that they will respect our modesty.

In fact, we are given very many pamphlets explaining many various subjects revolving around the hospital-doctor-patient aspects.

[Running Bear]

RunningBear, my concerns expressed here was never about insurance but about medical licensure and unprofessional behavior as dictated by the decisions of the American Medical Association ethics panel. I presented those concerns to a bioethics listserv that is comprised of physicians, philosophers and lawyers among others (any naturists, I just don't know). In any event, it seems that there are no rules or laws which would prevent a physician from an activity such as, while nude, performing voluntary examination on unclothed others. The decision whether to be dressed or undressed would be with the physician and the comfort of those which he or she was examining. So I was wrong in what I had assumed and written.

I would have been surprised if the USA was any different to the UK. Your assumption was based on the best available information at the time. If you attended a naturist event to examine patients you should be asked to remain dressed until you felt confident to undress. There should never be any goading and it is down to informed consent of both parties.
Today I am walking in the countryside naturist and we have a textile female photography student joining us. She is welcome to remain dressed and it is up to her own comfort what she does. She will probably get over hot climbing the hills so who knows? :-)
Edit:Update>
Our guest textile left a memorable statement. "My friends will never believe me when I tell them I spent the day with several naked gentlemen". It was the expression of the word gentlemen that felt good. The idea that she did not at all feel threatened in any way by our nudity even though she was a textile. Another memorable point was when when she fell flat on her rear in a river getting her cloths wet and muddy and her extreme pleasure on being given a chocolate cream egg while at a trig point. :-)

[David77]

It did not occured to me that a physician could be embarassed or uncomfortable under circumstances involving patient's nudity. This idea is because he/she has studied the human body for so many years and has seen the body of hundreds of patients, which would eliminate these attitudes.

However, I see from reading the blog that a physician still posesses the ability to be embarassed or uncomfortable surrounding nudity sometimes. It seems that sometimes the ordinary cultural feelings do occur regarding the patient's nude body, like that of a regular non-professional lay person.

[G I Joe]

It did not occured to me that a physician could be embarassed or uncomfortable under circumstances involving patient's nudity. This idea is because he/she has studied the human body for so many years and has seen the body of hundreds of patients, which would eliminate these attitudes.

However, I see from reading the blog that a physician still posesses the ability to be embarassed or uncomfortable surrounding nudity sometimes. It seems that sometimes the ordinary cultural feelings do occur regarding the patient's nude body, like that of a regular non-professional lay person.

I was surprised on a recent visit to a female dermatologist that I had to almost beg her to check me below the waist. Even then, my shorts remained on and were only sightly pulled from the top to view a couple of areas around my waist line. Being my first visit, I did not know what to expect, and did not insist that I be checked completely nude (which I assumed would be standard procedure) and which I now very much regret. Of course, I'm not sure what her response would have been since she seemed overly cautious about it. I have since done self views of my whole body and have found areas of concern that were never looked at during that visit. I can't help but find this kind of behavior very strange coming from a doctor. Now, I feel I have to make another visit on my $--but this time I will insist on a full exam. Otherwise, what is the point?

[David77]

Referring to seeing genitals, my (male) dermatologist said, "They are just flesh to me!"

[David77]

How do Islamic women physicians from Islamic countries, but now practicing in the USA, feel about examining men's genatalia? In other words, will their religion allow them to pull a man's jockey shorts down for this examination?

I have asked a friend (who is Unitarian) to ask this question, as her daughter and son-in-law are both Islamic and got their medical degrees in Egypt, which is his native country. They follow Islamic rules with the exception that he drinks some wine and she smokes. They both practice medicine in the USA now.
I never received an answer to this inquiry.

For over 20 years my primary physician was Islamic. His nurse said that he was not particurally religious. When he announced his retirement, it made me sad in loosing him.

An Islamic woman physician took over his practice. She wore a long skirt that covered her ankles and she wore a head scarf. However her skirt was silk (with flower print), which clung to her womanly hips.

When I saw her a couple times she made no real examination, (the nurse took the blood pressure beforehand) but we talked about my condition, which was helpful. She was pleasant enough, but I wondered whether she would hesitate to examine me, below the waist at least, because of her religious teaching of her native country about the separation of the genders. I also wondered if she very much preferred to have only women patients.

Of course I could not ask her if she would strongly try to avoid this personal examination, nor how she would react to the sight of my genitals. Thus I changed my primary doctor (Christian).

However, I have another Islamic doctor, (male) from Pakistan originally, who has been practicing his specialty here in the USA for many years. In fact, I have been going to him for possibly 30 years and shall continue to do so.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Having 20 years experience teaching first and second year medical students how to perform a physical examination, I can tell you that we have preached a concern for patient modesty during an examination. However, the patient should understand why certain parts of the body are being uncovered and of course the examination continues only with the patients ongoing approval otherwise an examination without consent would be legal battery, a crime.
We teach students to have the patients have their bodies exposed in sections. This is not just for modesty issues but it is to keep the patient warm during the examination since chilling can produce erroneous, misleading or impaired physical findings on listening with a stethoscope or palpation (touching). It is even wise for only a full dermatologic evaluation for skin lesions to look at the body systematically but in sections, serially uncovered. This is because to have the patient strip nude and then survey the skin, there is a greater chance of missing small significant lesions when the doctor's eye scans a whole torso than if the eye was looking at a small area of skin...it is just due to a human failing in perception.

I think most doctors are not afraid to look at a naked body, some are and perhaps that's why they go into psychiatry or radiology. What they are concerned about, I think, is transforming the clinical examination in the eyes of the patient into something sexual and the professional and legal consequences. Of course, I can't deny that there are a few doctors who, on their own or with the consent of the patient, turn the examination into something sexual. But I think this is the reason and not "afraid" to look.

I have gone into all of this on various threads of my blog and, of course, with my students. ..Maurice.

[usuallylurk]

To answer UsuallyLurk request: 1) I am not a dermatologist but I suppose as internal medicine I could suspect a skin lesion. 2) I am not a nudist so if I came it would be to a C/O environment, not only to protect my own modesty but also because it would not be professional to examine all parts of the member's nude body without my wearing clothing--in fact, this could easily cause me to lose my physician's license. 3) I don't have statistics at hand to answer the question as to whether nudists have increased risk of melanoma or squamous cell carcinoma of the skin compared with non-nudists--even with UV protection.


To answer your questions,

1) Fair enough, if you could suspect a lesion - that's valuable enough. After, all, GPs and PCPs generally do that -- if they see something, it's referral time.

2) As far as visiting a nudist resort -- if you were there in a professional capacity, you could keep your clothes on. No problem. I have been in nudist environments where there were glaucoma screenings, and breast exams -- but the medical professionals kept their togs on.

The cable TV guy, the DJ, the live band, the catering crew, the telephone repairman, the woman who loads the soda machine -- they don't get naked when they come into a nudist park -- and neither would you.

3) I don't have statistics either, but it's the awareness of the dangers of UV exposure that's important.

If there was increased incidence, is the motivation to be long hours undressed worth the risk of, if not death then otherwise expensive and perhaps some disfiguring treatment to prevent spread and death?


Screening, and non-melanoma cancer detection raises the awareness of the point you just made.

Remember, if a doctor does that screening exam at the nudist gathering and picks up a malignancy, the malignancy is already present and is no longer something to protect against.

No, but it something to be treated. IMMEDIATELY. If it is picked up, the patient has a chance. If it isn't, his/her chances diminish. Greatly.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

UauallyLurk, I can't be critical of naturists who take their chances with skin cancer since both naturists along with the clothed take their chances of in self-harm and death in many ways (skiing, skydiving, smoking and ...) as they live their lives. Thinking my statement over, I can see by reading this website that there is much psychologic pleasure and benefit to those who practice nudism and I suppose this positive value trumps the medical risks as long as all practitioners are aware of the risks and take precautions. ..Maurice.

[RobertL]

I think most doctors are not afraid to look at a naked body, some are and perhaps that's why they go into psychiatry or radiology.


I would think that a doctor who is afraid to look at a naked body should certainly not go into psychiatry - except as a patient.

[usuallylurk]

It is even wise for only a full dermatologic evaluation for skin lesions to look at the body systematically but in sections, serially uncovered. This is because to have the patient strip nude and then survey the skin, there is a greater chance of missing small significant lesions when the doctor's eye scans a whole torso than if the eye was looking at a small area of skin...it is just due to a human failing in perception.

OK... but ... it doesn't make the task impossible....

I think most doctors are not afraid to look at a naked body, some are and perhaps that's why they go into psychiatry or radiology.

I have family members in radiology - my sister-in-law is a radiologist (MD) ... given that her former specialty was colon / digestive tract radiology -- where she saw a lot of the "lower torso" exposed -- and her present area is breast radiology .... I find your statement a bit odd. Radiologists do have to view all parts of the body.

If M.D.s are afraid of a naked body, how the hell did they get through gross anatomy?

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Usuallylurk, the radiologist who performs a barium enema doesn't really have the time to gaze at a naked butt and most, who are not into interventional radiology, simply sit behind a monitor reading films. With regard to gross anatomy, the "patient" is dead and that makes a big difference emotionally in various ways and yes, some students do have a "hard time" getting through gross anatomy. ..Maurice.

[nakenone]

Not me at nearly 60,i have been through 2 hernia surgeries 1 testicle surgery,an 2 weeks ago a testicle removal an inplant,Strange as it may seem i enjoyed a mixed gender surgical teams.My 3 different surgeons were male,assistants male an female,i welcomed the ladies,they have a different touch,an eyesite that adds balance an care.Each surgery the team members would introduce themselves to me,i would look each one in the eyes an say thankyou for comming to work today,i need this repair an i appreciate you.Believe me talk about good service this is how you turn the lite on.When you reach out to them in your need i believe a mutual respect is created an the fat jokes or skinny weiner remarks are far away.Naked ok ,i am not an exibit type person,i had great fear as a young adult about being seen nude, i am different now an continue to explore my own limits an feelings.I have a lot to teach,if Dr berstien would care to pm me i live south of LA. Nakenone

[bernardc]

friday I had to go for a scope to see what was up in my stomach.I was given a mild sedation,and being light on fuel,it realy knocked me out.When I finaly woke up in bed,I was naked and my clothes were neatly in a pile next to me.I thought innitially that the nurses undressed me,as you usually go for the scope fully clothed.I was told that when i had returned from the GIT room,still sedated,I instinctively but discreetly took my clothes off myself.The nurse found it amusing.I Gues,even when sedated,my nudist genes have preeminence!

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

I wanted to respond to a Private Message sent to me by a member of this website who participated on my bioethics blog topic of patient modesty. Unfortunately, the rules here are I can't respond unless I have already posted 15 messages, which I haven't. However, this response could be member generic in nature and therefore I think it is appropriate to publish it here for everyone to read. If you would like to communicate with me, write it here on the forum or send me e-mail: DoktorMo@aol.com but don't write Private Mail since I can't respond. ..Maurice.

Yes, again thanks for participating. As you have seen by reading my threads on patient modesty there seems to be generally one general view presented by the visitors. I have been awaiting other views and by coming to this website and learning and suggesting for visitations to my blog, I was pleased to get responses. I would also like to expand the community of visitors to physicians and other healthcare providers (which has been rare) but also to professional nude models (who are not necessarily naturists) and believe-it-or-not, I thought of inviting pornographic actors (again who may not be necessarily naturists) to see their view of their own personal patient modesty issues. If you have any resources to these three categories that you could relate to me, I would greatly appreciate any help.

Again, thank you and try to be back and see what is new on my now Volume 10. ..Maurice.

[David77]

I like this post about overcoming embarrassment concerning the nude form.


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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_217732><!-- message, attachments, sig --><!-- icon and title -->Reverse Situation
<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Many years ago I was living with a woman who was an art student taking figure drawing. I often modeled for her but she was looking for female models to draw as well. We lived in a two-family house and our landlady was a year or two younger than us but very modest. More as a joke than anything, I told her of my roommate's need for a nude model and was shocked when she agreed...BUT with the stipulation that I be out of the apartment when she modeled. I agreed immediately.

When the proposed time came she was a no-show so I didn't leave but instead stripped to be a replacement model since my roommate had already set up her materials to sketch. We didn't hear a knock on the back door (probably due to the volume of the background music) and suddenly in walked the landlady in her bathrobe.

She got that "deer-in-the-headlights" expression when she saw me; not only still there, but nude! We explained that when she wasn't there at the appointed time we thought she had gotten cold feet and so I volunteered to substitute. I told her that I would just let my roommate finish what she was working on and then I'd dress and leave as promised.

When she finished, the landlady said that since she'd been looking at me naked for a while it wasn't necessary for me to leave while she posed. But that was the ONLY time she agreed to model.

About five years later, after we'd moved, we were at Dyer Woods in RI. When we arrived people we knew kept telling us there was a new couple there from our hometown playing volleyball. Since it was a city of over 90,000 people, we assumed we wouldn't know them and just brushed it off by saying, "That's nice."

When the game ended the couple came over to the area where we were tanning and we were mutually surprised to find that our former landlords had joined their former tenants and had become nudists. That led to several joint trips to other nude and clothing-optional venues over the next few years.

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[David77]

Mic stated,

Modeling
<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->In the late 50's I earned $10 per hour part time in college as an undraped model in art classes. At the time all the nude models were male, and the female models wore a body suit. I had no problem with being nude in front of the class until during the first class of a semester I recognized one of the female students who was a friend and a former "date".

I was nervous during class and when the class ended, I quickly dressed and walked back into the classroom. My friend was waiting for me. After a few funny comments she made me comfortable with the situation. We dated several times during the semester and to my knowledge never told anyone of my secret.

Mic
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[David77]

Christian stated in March 2003,

Studio Audition
<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->I just wanted to post a quick note to talk about an audition I did today. I saw an ad in one of our local papers for models draped and undraped. I called the number and spoke to the artist who told me what he does and who he is looking for. I was honest in telling him that I am not a muscle bound model and don't have a six pack abs and he said that was OK. I went by after work to see him. He very nonchalantly asked me to go into the bathroom and disrobe and return to the room. I thought I would be nervous but I absolutely was not. I did a few poses for him and he critiqued me but not in a bad way. When we were done he said that I would be a good model to work with. He is auditioning a few other people and will call me if I am selected.

Anyway, it was pretty cool. He teaches as well and mentioned doing a class. I would love that. It was just so... natural. Well, except for standing perfectly still. That was a bit difficult.
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[David77]

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Nude model is quite comfortable.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_214736>Quote:
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A few times I have seen models go to sleep while in a comfortable pose, but they didn't happen to snore. Some others just close their eyes and rest while in a pose. When painting, we may ask them what color of eyes they have and this causes them to open their eyes for awhile.

One young man, nude, went asleep while slumped in an armchair with his head on his right arm/hand. This was an interesting, very unusual pose, so we did not wake him until we finished our drawing.
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David77

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

First of all, is there a consensus here that personal patient physical modesty of a naturist during a physical exam or medical procedure or surgery is an irrelevant factor and that as long as the activity is professional it makes no difference what gender are the healthcare providers?

Second, when writing about profesional nude models, does anyone know their feelings about personal patient physical modesty? Can we also assume that they would consider the gender of the healthcare providers irrelevant even if they were NOT naturists?

And then there are those porno actors and a group I didn't even think of until one of your members suggested a website of folks who love to have sex in semi-public ways and probably enjoys others watching. Would they make a fuss who is medically manipulating their penis or female genitalia?

These, to some, may sound as "way-out" concerns but as one can see by the 3 1/2 years of comments on my blog, there are some men and women who are very concerned about their modesty in a medical situation. ..Maurice.

[Boreas]

Hi Maurice, I don't think I have replied to this before. I am comfortable with being nude at the doctor's, yet I do appreciate the draping and boundaries. I have decided it does not matter to me whether the health professional is male or female, as long as they have the appropriate boundaries. I went to physio with a male PT and was a little apprehensive. He was totally fine. My last GP was male and I totally trusted him. He was very respectful, and kind. He has left town, and his replacement is male. I will not be seeing him, partly because he tried to convince me that cyclobenzaprine was an anti-inflammatory instead of a muscle relaxant. I would not feel comfortable allowing him to examine me because I felt disrespected and patronized. He may have suitable boundaries on one hand, but I feel that he is condescending on some level, and therefore, I will not be able to work with him properly. I have switched doctors, and my new one is female. I have not had a female doctor before, so this will be new for me. I have met her and I liked her.

So, I guess the components for me involve respect. When the doctor respects me as an individual, rather than just a patient, and when they respect my need for modesty, I am more comfortable. This also acknowledges the fact that I might be nervous about whatever is bringing me in and so might need some draping for that reason. I had a ganglion removed a year or so ago. Of course, since it was on my wrist, there was no need for nudity or exposure. Never-the-less, I could have kissed the nurse who put the warm blanket on me......the OR was COLD! Draping can also provide warmth in cold offices and hospitals! :) So, it does not matter to me if the healthcare professional is male or female, as long as they have appropriate professional boundaries.

I have also worked in healthcare for many years as a social worker, so I might be a little less tolerant of poor boundaries on some level. This is a smallish town, so I could be working with the doctor or other professional as a colleague on another occasion. Also, I spend a lot of time providing services to others, so when it is my turn, I want to be given some time and to be taken seriously. Sometimes draping is showing that I am being taken seriously.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Boreas, you write "When the doctor respects me as an individual, rather than just a patient, and when they respect my need for modesty, I am more comfortable" and that is the very point that the majority of writers to my blog thread on patient modesty stress to the effect: "most doctors are ignorant that modesty may be an essential issue that a patient presents with.. most doctors are unwilling to engage the patient regarding modesty.. (of course, based on the comments many patients have been shy to talk about this up front with their doctor!) and then they say "even when they bring up the subject, most doctors avoid responding or say the patient's request for a different gender nurse or assistant is answered with a 'can't do', 'not available' ..a kind of 'take it or leave it' attitude." Anyway, that is a realistic dilemma that some patients face.. to the extreme where they will put off or ignore clinically important examinations or procedures because their modesty concerns will not be mitigated or even attempted to be mitigated by their doctors.

With regard to modesty, as I have already written.. this is a topic I have gone over with my first and second year medical students for years. And I also stress the importance of keeping the patient covered as much as possible without interfering with a proper clinical evaluation both for modesty but also to keep the patient warm. ..Maurice.

[Boreas]

I am not overly concerned about modesty. I do like that the doctor takes that into consideration. I am also aware that the doctor has to be concerned about giving any inappropriate signals. Draping protects both of us. Last year during my annual exam, my doctor commented that my skin looked good for my age. He did some back pedalling when he realized that might not have sounded appropriate. I did not take offence, because I knew what he meant. That could have been a different scenario if either of us did not have appropriate boundaries.

How do you manage if someone has extreme modesty that does interfere with your work? For example, we have one poster who will not let the doctor see his "private parts" and will not allow a female health professional to see any part of his exposed. He declined what seemed to be an important diagnostic test (can't remember the name of it right now) because it would involve putting something up his penis to see into his bladder. I would imagine that type of "modesty" would interfere with the doctor's and nurse's, etc work.

[richo]

I think an important factor to add in here is not just modesty but shame - not necessarily at being nude or exposed, but sometimes in the kinds of illness that one is seeing the doctor about. Even in the absense of shame or modesty, there is a lot in the medical relationship that should remain private for a variety of reasons, whether the patient is dressed or not. Curtains, blankets, and that sort of thing can give the illusion - if not the fact - of keeping some of those things private, on top of any modesty concerns the individual may have.

As for my modesty - my previous doctor (who I had all through my teenage years) used to joke that she had a harder time getting me to keep my clothes on than to take them off.

[Running Bear]

I am basically attending a Doctor to treat me in the best duty-of-care way. If that duty-of-care is compromised by clothing I would expect them to professionally remove that hazard. I would expect to have respect given for my modesty and a question like "do you mind if I examine you naked" question would give me the ability to relinquish control of my nudity to said Doctor. I would value the opportunity for the question allowing me to delinate my own personal modesty level. A Doctor should not assume that even a naturist is happy with a naked exam. Talk to the patient with confidence. "I will need to examine you naked, do you have any concerns?". Also do not assume that a sex worker or swinger has any less modesty than one who does not have a sexual job. A catholic may be offered birth control but it is up to the catholic to accept or deny this treatment depending on their own interpretation of the scriptures. It is unacceptable to assume they would always refuse on religious grounds.
Do exactly the same with the patient dressed as you would naked. The presence or absence of clothes should make little difference in a professional environment where both Doctor and patient respect each other. Never assume always enquire but have courage not to make nudity an issue.
At a marathon there was a medical experiment where the clinicians were researching rectal temperatures. This was announced at the start and all the staff were wandering around with thermometers brandished. No patient seemed to be concerned even though the conditions of treatment were less than ideal. The film "MASH" comes to mind. The research was on hypothermia. Providing the patient understands the benefit of intrusive examinations being for their own good, problems may occur with compliance but these tend to be rare.
The stripper and prostitute are known as sex workers.
The swingers and doggers are known as sexual tourists.
Slightly different ethics.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Boreas, you ask "How do you manage if someone has extreme modesty that does interfere with your work?" First of all my work is also the patient's work.. We should both be on the same team. If a patient would express such modesty that would prevent an effiective physical examination, for example, I would inform the patient why the examination was necessary and what measures I would take to be in keeping as much as possible with the patient's modesty concerns. If this was not satisfactory to the patient, there is nothing further I can do but give advice. To do otherwise, an unconsented examination, would represent legal battery. ..Maurice.

[Sanslines]

Mic stated,

Modeling

<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->In the late 50's I earned $10 per hour part time in college as an undraped model in art classes. At the time all the nude models were male, and the female models wore a body suit. I had no problem with being nude in front of the class until during the first class of a semester I recognized one of the female students who was a friend and a former "date".

I was nervous during class and when the class ended, I quickly dressed and walked back into the classroom. My friend was waiting for me. After a few funny comments she made me comfortable with the situation. We dated several times during the semester and to my knowledge never told anyone of my secret.

Mic
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________

YES..........in the LATE 1950's the hourly wage was $10.00 per hour! In so many places the hourly wage is STILL ONLY $10.00 per hour! How many other part time jobs does anyone know where the wage has NOT increased in OVER 50 YEARS!!!!

[Sanslines]

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Nude model is quite comfortable.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_214736>Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">I did a long, reclining pose, pretty much flat on my back. I hate doing that, mainly because there's an excellent chance that I'll fall asleep and start to snore. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
A few times I have seen models go to sleep while in a comfortable pose, but they didn't happen to snore. Some others just close their eyes and rest while in a pose. When painting, we may ask them what color of eyes they have and this causes them to open their eyes for awhile.

One young man, nude, went asleep while slumped in an armchair with his head on his right arm/hand. This was an interesting, very unusual pose, so we did not wake him until we finished our drawing.
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David77

Sleeping while on the job is completely unprofessional. Many of the older artists that I work with would NEVER tolerate anyone sleeping on the job. If any model did, that model would NEVER be asked to work again.

[Sanslines]

Boreas, you ask "How do you manage if someone has extreme modesty that does interfere with your work?" First of all my work is also the patient's work.. We should both be on the same team. If a patient would express such modesty that would prevent an effiective physical examination, for example, I would inform the patient why the examination was necessary and what measures I would take to be in keeping as much as possible with the patient's modesty concerns. If this was not satisfactory to the patient, there is nothing further I can do but give advice. To do otherwise, an unconsented examination, would represent legal battery. ..Maurice.

Maurice,

You bring up an interesting point about being on the same 'team' with a patient. I am just curious to know how many patients actually follow your dierctions and advice about making changes to life shortening and harmful practices. Do many actually quit smoking, drinking, or make substantial dietary changes based upon your recomendations? How do you treat patients who seem determined to continue to follow very harmful lifestyle practices in spite of your best efforts to 'wake them up' and get them to acknoweldge that they are indeed killing themselves with self destructive habits?

[MoonShadow]

Maurice,

How do you treat patients who seem determined to continue to follow very harmful lifestyle practices in spite of your best efforts to 'wake them up' and get them to acknoweldge that they are indeed killing themselves with self destructive habits?

Most doctors don't "wake" patients up. And many don't truly know what a healthy lifestyle is as they are not dieticians. Doctors can only advise patients if they smoke to try to quit or to try and lose weight but it is up to the patient to quit smoking or change their diets. Even so, a doctor should never NOT provide the best care possible even to those who will continue to smoke or have unhealthy diets. You have to remember that the doctor is being paid for his or her service. The patient is the customer.

[Sanslines]

Most doctors don't "wake" patients up. And many don't truly know what a healthy lifestyle is as they are not dieticians. Doctors can only advise patients if they smoke to try to quit or to try and lose weight but it is up to the patient to quit smoking or change their diets. Even so, a doctor should never NOT provide the best care possible even to those who will continue to smoke or have unhealthy diets. You have to remember that the doctor is being paid for his or her service. The patient is the customer.

Money should never decide who is the boss when it comes to medicine. Patients should not dictate treatments for their illnesses based upon the fact that they are paying money.

The best possible scenario is when a patient sincerely wants to recover from illness and works with their doctor in a real partnership. The doctor guides the patient towards recovery and the patient religiously follows the directions and advice of the doctor.

In politically correct terms, doctors will never not treat a patient to the best of their ability regardless of whether the patient wants to recover or does not.

In reality a doctor is still a human being and will automatically be predisposed to performing above and beyond the call of duty to those patients who are cooperative and are open to and actively attempting to get well. Doctors honestly appreciate patients who put real effort into leading healthy lives that involve some aspects of proper diet and exercise.

In reality, in spite of the poitically correct nonsense, doctors will not have the time, energy, or desire to fight patients into recovery against their will. The best that a doctor can do for a patient who is hell bent on self destruction is to treat the patient for the problems at hand (if possible), make the patient aware of the fact that they are on a course of self destruction, and then let the patient self destruct if they so chose. Doctors can not force treatements on patients and can only do so much with uncooperative patients. Doctors can also refuse to treat patients who patently refuse to follow doctors recover plans and advice.

In the end, the best scenario is for both doctor and patient to work with each other, but in so many cases this is more of an idealized and theoretical approach then a reality.

[David77]

My friend's relative is a doctor and this doctor is overweight and smokes. :disappointed:

[MoonShadow]

LOL David. Yes, I have known a few who still smoke, some have lost weight, some haven't. Like Sanslines says, they are human beings too. :)

[MoonShadow]

In reality, in spite of the poitically correct nonsense, doctors will not have the time, energy, or desire to fight patients into recovery against their will. The best that a doctor can do for a patient who is hell bent on self destruction is to treat the patient for the problems at hand (if possible), make the patient aware of the fact that they are on a course of self destruction, and then let the patient self destruct if they so chose. Doctors can not force treatements on patients and can only do so much with uncooperative patients. Doctors can also refuse to treat patients who patently refuse to follow doctors recover plans and advice.




Yes, and that is what most do.

[Sanslines]

My friend's relative is a doctor and this doctor is overweight and smokes. :disappointed:


Why that's totally outrageous behavior! You should immediately go to your friend's relative and convince him of the errors of his ways before it is too late.

[Boreas]

Boreas, you ask "How do you manage if someone has extreme modesty that does interfere with your work?" First of all my work is also the patient's work.. We should both be on the same team. If a patient would express such modesty that would prevent an effiective physical examination, for example, I would inform the patient why the examination was necessary and what measures I would take to be in keeping as much as possible with the patient's modesty concerns. If this was not satisfactory to the patient, there is nothing further I can do but give advice. To do otherwise, an unconsented examination, would represent legal battery. ..Maurice.

Of course. It is similar in my profession as a social worker, except in the field of child welfare or somewhere there are safety issues. We as professionals can only advise and guide people can't we.

[David77]

Why that's totally outrageous behavior! You should immediately go to your friend's relative and convince him of the errors of his ways before it is too late.

It is not a "him". It is a "her". She is already convinced that she is "doin' wrong" but she is both a food-aholic/smoke-aholic --- but she is a kind food-aholic/smoke-aholic.

I wish I could have "convinced" a very wonderful doctor of mine to not commit suicide, as he went out in the back of the hospital, to some woods, and shot himself dead. I had no hint that he had any serious problems.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

David77. obviously we are migrating off the main topic of naturism. So as a card-bearing clothist but also an inquiring physician and for my own understanding I have a question to ask this group (I haven't done any research myself for an answer), is there psychologic or emotional benefit for being a nudist in terms of statistically less chance for depression, suicide, anxiety and panic reactions. In other words, does the pleasure of being nude or socializing nude provide true prophylaxis to prevent these important emotional/psychiatric disorders of which many patients suffer? Any resource info on this question? ..Maurice.

[Running Bear]

Anecdotal reply. I find the need to be socially active, a requirement of my human-ness and as such I seek out my same species - naturists, My social circle depends on my naturism and without it I would suffer. To live in my body as God or Darwin designed is a natural human desire. I work and play naturist so, yes naturism does ensure my continual mental and physical welfare. My friends would just think I am weird if I dressed since they recognise me naked not dressed in those rags-of-shame.
I conform to the general accepted social behaviour when amongst textiles (the proper term for a clotheist as you quote) by dressing but am highly stressed in this state. I find clothes create a sexual tension that is not there in the naked human form.
My skin is my form of social expression and if I am prevented from expressing myself (providing I am doing no harm to myself or others) then this form of repression is harmful to the psyche. It suggests a Big Brother or Nanny state or repressive society.
Have a look at the case of Steven Gough the English Naked Rambler who has suffered persecution for his beliefs at the hands of the Scottish courts. I am less militant myself but have the same desires as he does. The freedom to express myself as I see fit (within the expected parameters).
Live long and prosper (apologies to Trekkies) and one can only truly prosper in a naturist state IMHO :-)

[nakenone]

Yes i enjoy being without cloths,it is therapy for stress in life,but at the same time can create stress of its own if not in approiate setting.I want to relax an enjoy myself ,to find myself nude in company of others that have a problem with naturists is stress an cancells out any benefit.The reference to steven gough is interesting,probable a nice guy but bad for naturist ,he continued to force his nudity on others ,he was not content to just hike naked but go into town of textiles naked.He created more stress an negative impact,contrary to naturist.He made his statement an went to jail,good he can stay there.I believe naturist should be allowed the freedom to be themselves,finding threapy an relaxing in approiate places.

[David77]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+comparison+of+pro-+and+anti-nudity+college+students+on+acceptance...-a0186015677

They tried to determine any difference in the following areas;

Self acceptance
Body image
Religious bigotry
Attitude toward disabled people
Attitude toward lesbians and gays
Attitude toward social nudity
Religiosity
Sexual opinion
Conservative- Liberal scale
Social desirability

Participants

Participants were 384 undergraduate students (187 males, 194 females, 3 unreported) at a large, state university in the southeastern region of the United States. Their mean age was 19.2 years (SD = 1.72). Regarding ethnicity (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ethnicity)ethnicity Vox populi Racial status–ie, African American, Asian, Caucasian, Hispanic
..... Click the link for more information., 267 students self-identified as non-Hispanic White, 50 as Hispanic/Latino/a, 30 as African American (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/African+American)African American Multiculture A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. See Race.
..... Click the link for more information., 25 as Asian American (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Asian+American) A·sian A·mer·i·can also A·sian-A·mer·i·can
n.
A U.S. citizen or resident of Asian descent. See Usage Note at Amerasian.



<HR class=hmshort align=left>
A , and 12 as "Other." Regarding religious affiliation, 262 reported being Christian, 42 as Agnostic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic) ag·nos·tic
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. , 22 as Atheist (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/atheist) ATHEIST. One who denies the existence of God.
2. As atheists have not any religion that can bind their consciences to speak the truth, they are excluded from being witnesses. Bull. N. P. 292; 1 Atk. 40; Gilb. Ev. 129; 1 Phil. Ev. 19. See also, Co. Litt. 6 b. , 12 as Jewish, 5 as Islamic, 5 as Buddhist, 2 as Hindu, and 34 as "Other." The majority (84.9%) were either freshmen or sophomores. Among all students, only 16 indicated that they considered themselves as "nudists." Among those who subsequently qualified for the pro-nudity and anti-nudity groups described below, only 10 of the pro-nudity students and none of the anti-nudity students considered themselves as "nudists." Participation was voluntary and was compensated with extra credit in students' respective general psychology courses.

Participants

Participants were 384 undergraduate students (187 males, 194 females, 3 unreported) at a large, state university in the southeastern region of the United States. Their mean age was 19.2 years (SD = 1.72). Regarding ethnicity (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ethnicity)ethnicity Vox populi Racial status–ie, African American, Asian, Caucasian, Hispanic
..... Click the link for more information., 267 students self-identified as non-Hispanic White, 50 as Hispanic/Latino/a, 30 as African American (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/African+American)African American Multiculture A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. See Race.
..... Click the link for more information., 25 as Asian American (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Asian+American) A·sian A·mer·i·can also A·sian-A·mer·i·can
n.
A U.S. citizen or resident of Asian descent. See Usage Note at Amerasian.



<HR class=hmshort align=left>
A , and 12 as "Other." Regarding religious affiliation, 262 reported being Christian, 42 as Agnostic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic) ag·nos·tic
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. , 22 as Atheist (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/atheist) ATHEIST. One who denies the existence of God.
2. As atheists have not any religion that can bind their consciences to speak the truth, they are excluded from being witnesses. Bull. N. P. 292; 1 Atk. 40; Gilb. Ev. 129; 1 Phil. Ev. 19. See also, Co. Litt. 6 b. , 12 as Jewish, 5 as Islamic, 5 as Buddhist, 2 as Hindu, and 34 as "Other." The majority (84.9%) were either freshmen or sophomores. Among all students, only 16 indicated that they considered themselves as "nudists." Among those who subsequently qualified for the pro-nudity and anti-nudity groups described below, only 10 of the pro-nudity students and none of the anti-nudity students considered themselves as "nudists." Participation was voluntary and was compensated with extra credit in students' respective general psychology courses.

[Fresh Air]

I appreciate Fresh Air's comments. I agree that most doctors are comfortable with degrees of undress of their patients, though I think some are not (similar to the discomfort of first and second year medical students.) What doctors are probably most concerned about with regard to undress is any associated behavior of sexual seduction by the patient. The seductive patient is an important professional issue that can challenge both the medical student and the practicing physician. Physicians, male or female, are human beings with their own sexual drives which under the professional codes and societal laws and simply ethical behavior clearly restrict doctors from acting on those drives. Therefore if patients, and some do, use their degrees of undress to attempt to manipulate the doctor by seductive behavior for one reason or another, this should be recognized and mitigated.

I want to thank 2 visitors apparently from this website who have already contributed to my blog thread. More are certainly welcome To me, this is very important if we all want to get the full picture regarding the dynamics or mechanism in patient physical modesty. ..Maurice.

I don't quite see nudity and sexuality as mutual. I think a patient can be seductive with there clothes on and it is never a temptation, clothed or nude. Maybe I have a 'whack' drive, but it doesn't operate on nudity. I don't even operate on sexuality if I'm at work. It is not only my obligation and oath, but just not at all the right situation or relationship. Plus, I already love my wife.

[Fresh Air]

Dr. Mo---

Perhaps you can repay the favor -- how about spending an afternoon at a nudist resort, doing a skin cancer screening for the members there?

(no apology for the informal addressing !!! That's the way it is when you enter a nudist environment like this -- we drop our titles, and formalities, when we enter the nudist or naturist realm!)

By the way, my daughter is going through intense education to become a physicians' assistant. I think her nudist background not only allowed her to view people that are "different" (missing limbs, surgical scars, etc.) with a great degree of normalcy - but it will extend into, and benefit her new career.

'lurk

I think my brother 'doctorsurferdude' or I would totally do that....

[Fresh Air]

Running Bear, I don't want you to think I am trying to ignore you but I need a bit of time to research the facts with regarding whether a physician would be considered professionally unethical and risk losing a medical license by examining or treating a nude patient in a nudist environment in the nude. You state otherwise. This is an important issue even in more general terms. The question is whether the laws and ethics involved in the professional behavior within one culture (example: clothes on) is altered if the professional is performing his or her duties within another culture (example: clothes free). This could apply to situations such as a Muslim physician or student from a Muslim country practicing or learning with the medical culture of the United States. ..Maurice.

I think that is more of a personal ethic than a professional one.

Though, I don't really see the point of the physician having or not having clothes in that setting. If they were a nudist, clothes free would seem fine. If they were not a nudist, clothed would be more appropriate. Either way, if the physician is comfortable, then the patient will be and in that situation of mutual comfort the best care can be given.

[Fresh Air]

David77. obviously we are migrating off the main topic of naturism. So as a card-bearing clothist but also an inquiring physician and for my own understanding I have a question to ask this group (I haven't done any research myself for an answer), is there psychologic or emotional benefit for being a nudist in terms of statistically less chance for depression, suicide, anxiety and panic reactions. In other words, does the pleasure of being nude or socializing nude provide true prophylaxis to prevent these important emotional/psychiatric disorders of which many patients suffer? Any resource info on this question? ..Maurice.

it isn't well studied.

[Running Bear]

Yes i enjoy being without cloths,it is therapy for stress in life,but at the same time can create stress of its own if not in approiate setting....
...The reference to steven gough is interesting,...
...He created more stress an negative impact
Life is always a balance of opposites. When I say I am stressed in clothes and relaxed when naked that also implies that when appropriate I would find clothes very relaxing and being naked stressful. That does not negate my point though since we are talking about the ideal scenario.

I was concentrating on one small aspect of Steve Gough. His desire to be himself but society preventing that. I am not saying that murderers have a right to murder but in the degree of acceptability how can one justify incarceration for simply being naked without sexual intent? Does Steve do naturism harm? I have just had an incident of a textile reporter attending one of our walks and her exact comments were "I have heard of Steve Gough who tried to walk naked across England". He is a public figure and love him or hate him he is known by many outside of naturism. Most do perceive him as eccentric and I doubt anybody sees him as a typical naturist, people are generally quite intelligent. I myself, am only a naturist because of the knowledge of Steve Goughs antics. It brought me into the fold so to speak. Again I claim opposites; for every bad there is a good.

The average naturist club, the epitome of proper naturism, has left the public with the idea of "what kinky stuff goes on behind closed doors". This is an over simplification I know.

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

Fresh Air wrote:"I don't quite see nudity and sexuality as mutual. I think a patient can be seductive with there clothes on and it is never a temptation, clothed or nude." I fully agree that a female patient can be seductive fully dressed but seductive in speech or general behavior. The doctor can have more control over the situation with the clothed female patient. It is when the patient, partially undressed, for a clinical examination, that the physician may find the seductive behavior more distressing in terms of distraction from the goal of the examination and keeping to professional limits to a reaction. As I think I have stated previously, as far as I know there is no medical rationale to examine a patient fully nude except perhaps a full dermatologic examination. Though as I mentioned, even this technique has been challenged as less valuable for picking up small lesions than to look at the draped body in small serial bare segments. The physician's use of a chaperone may be essential as a witness but also by her presence suppressing the patient's seductive actions.
I have had experience with seductive female patients but I have never, as a male physician, had experience with a seductive male patient. ..Maurice.

[nakenone]

I believe it is not possible to teach feelings,to realy get it,you would need to some degree experience it.If i were teaching medical students about modesty an apprehension etc in working with patients i would start with this.Every one in class that wants to be a doctor raise your hand,every one who wants to be a patient raise your hand. OK no patients.Students tomorrow the requirement is all students in class will come to class only wearing a hospital gown.Are you kidding me? Write down all your feelings as you walk to class,note how others see you,feel how easy it is to keep the gown on,an maintain privacy.This is the beginning of understanding the patient doctor relationship.More teaching soon , NAKENONE

[Boreas]

Good one nakenone. They need to conduct that exercise at our hospital with some of the docs and nurses. If you have a colonoscopy here, you have to wait in the main hall of the "Visiting Specialists" area of the hospital in a hospital gown. This is one of the busiest outpatient areas of the hospital. I was sitting there one time(fully dressed waiting for the podiatrist), and this poor young woman was being escorted to the bathroom to change. She was wearing a hospital gown and was still slightly drugged. That is unacceptable to me.

I suspect that if a doctor or nurse needs this procedure, they take steps to protect their modesty!

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

We have had for some time a special experience program for resident physicians at one of our local Southern California hospitals who were required to become an "ordinary patient" for a couple days, dressed and tended to as a patient just to learn what it was really like to be on the other side of the hospital bed railing. I am currently not aware if the program is still active. ..Maurice.

[Naturist Mark]

I have a question to ask this group (I haven't done any research myself for an answer), is there psychologic or emotional benefit for being a nudist in terms of statistically less chance for depression, suicide, anxiety and panic reactions. In other words, does the pleasure of being nude or socializing nude provide true prophylaxis to prevent these important emotional/psychiatric disorders of which many patients suffer? Any resource info on this question? ..Maurice.

Those benefits have certainly been alleged among nudists/naturists. I wouldn't say they have been definitively established, but there is some support for the belief.

205 Arguments in Support of Social Nudity (http://familyskinnydippers.com/public/205args.php?arg=0)
as presented by The Naturist Society

-Mark

[Maurice Bernstein, M.D.]

As I have previously noted here, I am very pleased that a naturist from this website who identifies himself on my blog as CSM but I think has a different handle here is continuing to write with such remarkable clarity particularly about the similarities between his view of the naturism culture and those of the medical profession with regard to the issue of patient modesty and patient's need for attention for healthcare gender selection. We both believe that healthcare workers should be considered gender neutral and what is most important is the competency and professionalism of the workers. However there is much disagreement with our views by many of the writers on my blog. I am taking the liberty to paste here an example of the view of CSM written yesterday on the thread "Patient Modesty: Volume 10" (http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/02/patient-modesty-volume-10.html). I encourage other naturists to come and write their views, in support of CSM or otherwise so that those folks on my blog who are not naturists will get a fuller perspective of patient modesty in the naturism culture. Thanks.. ..Maurice.



I am beginning to understand the similarity between the attitudes of medical care givers and naturists. We both get blase about there being two body operating systems, male-female like Microsoft-Apple, so we easily lose focus on gender being more than a tech issue or being a big deal for modesty. We both work hard to respond to other people's attitudes, but underneath we still are pretty sure our values are in fact correct -- to cheefully accept the inescapability of life's essential yin-yang and then, without angst or fuss over operating systems, to treat everybody and every body with impeccable respect and dignity. ...

Issues with modesty/privacy must somehow derive from preconceptions about the danger of bad experiences, so the only solution would seem to be contravening good experiences. A good experience with a male student gyn or a female testicular ultrsound tech perhaps. This is definitely what happens with naturism. People have all sorts of preconceptions and security, body image, modesty and other concerns until they actually experience the opposite, and can really see and feel how naturist values get internalized and translated into behavior.

[Fresh Air]

Fresh Air wrote:"I don't quite see nudity and sexuality as mutual. I think a patient can be seductive with there clothes on and it is never a temptation, clothed or nude." I fully agree that a female patient can be seductive fully dressed but seductive in speech or general behavior. The doctor can have more control over the situation with the clothed female patient. It is when the patient, partially undressed, for a clinical examination, that the physician may find the seductive behavior more distressing in terms of distraction from the goal of the examination and keeping to professional limits to a reaction. As I think I have stated previously, as far as I know there is no medical rationale to examine a patient fully nude except perhaps a full dermatologic examination. Though as I mentioned, even this technique has been challenged as less valuable for picking up small lesions than to look at the draped body in small serial bare segments. The physician's use of a chaperone may be essential as a witness but also by her presence suppressing the patient's seductive actions.
I have had experience with seductive female patients but I have never, as a male physician, had experience with a seductive male patient. ..Maurice.

....not a distraction either way, for me, clothed status or gender. And, actually, if a patient is not clothed then there is a nurse present - for legal reasons - and that tends to make it a MORE controlled situation.

[timothyc]

I was in the hospitaL 2 years ago for same day surgery. My female cousin came to pick me up afterwards. When it was time for me to get dressed the nurse who was there to help me did not ever ask me or my cousin if I wanted my cousin to leave while I got dressed. Eventually my cousin asked if I wanted her to leave the room and then she left. possibly because I was still drugged after surgery I had not even thought about getting dressed while my cousin was in the room. Considering I was not wearing anything under the gown wouldn't the nurse usually at least ask the adult patient if they minded having their visitor in the room while dressing. My family is definitely not nudists and I would have been very surprised if my cousin was willing to stay in the room with me naked though she did ask what I wanted rather then simply leaving the room on her own. The nurse did stay to help me get dressed.

[Home Nudist]

The nurse was remiss in his/her duties not to offer to protect your modesty by asking your visitor to leave.

He/she was also remiss in not assisting you to dress or sending in an aide or orderly to assist you, if you were still under the effects of anaesthesia, and it was apparent that you needed help.

But, I've seen it before..... Hospitals are so understaffed (cost cutting) that nurses are forced to "forget" all the little amenities -- and just need to get the job done and get on to the next person or thing.

(Which is why I gave up Nursing!)

[cadwalladr1]

Several years ago I had to go into hospital for an operation. At one stage of course I was "wired up" to a drip although generally I was feeling fine. Then a young nurse came in and said that I ought to have a full body wash. I pointed out that I was "tethered" but that I could get out of bed with care while leaving my arms attached to the drips. I was only wearing pyjama trousers (I hated wearing them but I had been told that not doing so would not be acceptable, even though I was in a private ward!) I sat on the side of the bed while the nurse soaped as much as she could. Eventually though she had to wash my lower half so she removed the pyjamas completely. She gasped and said: "You've got a super tan; where have you been on holiday? And you are completely shaved!" Since I had been off work for about six weeks and I had spent the time naked in our back garden I was the colour of a coconut from head to foot (it had been a glorious summer). As to the hairlessness I told her I was in the habit of going to a beautician for waxing on a regular basis. I also told her that it was a genuine uk tan, but that I hadn't worn anything in the garden for weeks. She replied that she was green with envy, that she could not do the same in her garden. (Actually, I had been "caught" once by our cleaner who was completely unfazed by my nudity.) When she had finished washing me, including all my "best" bits the nurse told me to stand up while she studied my body carefully. "You look wonderful," she said, "but I shouldn't really be saying that, should I? You had better get dressed and back into bed." I asked her for my pjs, but she said: "Do you really want to wear them?" When I said no she told me I didn't really need to put them back on. So I didn't. I had some raised eybrows from other hospital staff who saw me thereafter, but I was not told to dress again. In fact one or two more made favourable comments about my tan and my hairlessness. Not all nurses are prudes!

[timothyc]

one part you misunderstood about my last post. The nurse did in fact stay to help me get dressed. I did need the help at that point between the medication and the fact that I had no use of my left arm after the surgery.

[timothyc]

two different situations. In the first I was in the hospital after surgery and needed to urinate. since I was not yet able to get out of bed to use the bathroom I asked for one of those things, i can't remember what they are called but they are tall and have a top on it. anyway the nurse brought me one but instead of them leaving the room so I could use it acouple more nurses came in and were standing there while i had my gown up attempting to use it. only 1 of the nurses seemed to have any reason to be there asking questions regarding the surgery but at least it seemed to me the rest were just looking at me. Usually that wouldn't have been so bad but I wa unable to urinate with 3 or 4 lady nurses looking at me. Eventualy they realized the problem and left long enough for me to finish. It may have been just a coincidence that they all came in at that time but once they saw I was trying to urinate with my gown up they could have left. I was having enough trouble as it was using that thing since I was unable to use one arm after the surgery.

A different situation. I was at a dermatologist wearing only my underwear no gown which is not a problem since I never worry about having a gown or not. If they give me one sometimes I wear it sometimes not. This particular time I was there for a rather extended period of time in my underwear for an examination, and a biopsy. I had no problem except once when the doctor left the room for a few minutes she didn't shut the door so anyone passing by the room would have seen me laying there in only my underwear something that the doctors should have realized would bother a lot of people. I have no problem with medical people, doctors, nurse or whoever, male or female coming in and out during an examination but it seems like they could close the door when they leave,

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