Is there any hope for female nudism online?

[Eternity]

Are we to accept that online nudism is mostly a guy thing? What can be done to make things better?

[Pete Knight]

Are we to accept that online nudism is mostly a guy thing? What can be done to make things better?

I really don't know, that would be best coming from the female perspective, but overall I think the Electric Interweb is a mainly male dominated area anyway.

I know several ladies who surf, and quite a few on naturist forums, but some have been put off by approaches from men, and even the innocent messages can be quite tiresome.

My friend dropped out of Skinbook because of all the messages she was getting, she said they weren't crude or suggestive on the whole, just tiresome. I advised her to ignore them.

As for friends or buddy list invitations, I simply ask those inviting me to write a little about themselves and why they want to be my chum, its not much to ask is it? Extensive lists of friends are pointless if you don't have a common interest (Besides naturism.) or you know them, or even plan to get to know them.

I refuse requests from people who simply send a blank request, unless I know them, as is the case on my Skinbook page and the BN forum, a lady friend on the BN forum has disabled her friends list, so no one can request her friendship.

A feeling of harassment has to be the main reason why there are so few ladies signed up to forums.

Pete Knight

[NudeAl]

Another guy here chiming in so I am not sure my perspective is going to be of any help.

My sense is that more males are interested in nudism than females I think it may have something to do with males being more the visual aspects of nudism. I am saying this badly I guess what I mean is that we males are not put off by being nude we tend to be less self conscious of our bodies and have an easier time with the whole concept of nudism.

Another thing I see is that these forums tend to be dominated by men. The few women who do post here have to have thick skin.Usually it's just a case of men over whelming the woman with sheer numbers. Most of those who post here are gentlemen but it only takes one jerk to put a woman off enough to stop posting here.

Finally I know from my wife that the topics she finds interest her are not ones that get talked about much here. I think that it might be that simple women have other things that interest them and take up their time.

I would love to see more women posting here. I think a lot of guys could benefit from hearing things from the female perspective. I just have no dea how to generate interest in order to get them to post here.

[EricNY]

I know several ladies who surf, and quite a few on naturist forums, but some have been put off by approaches from men, and even the innocent messages can be quite tiresome.


A feeling of harassment has to be the main reason why there are so few ladies signed up to forums.



Sad but very true Pete

[EricNY]

My sense is that more males are interested in nudism than females I think it may have something to do with males being more the visual aspects of nudism. I am saying this badly I guess what I mean is that we males are not put off by being nude we tend to be less self conscious of our bodies and have an easier time with the whole concept of nudism.


Not sure I agree with that Al. From what I see at nudist venues, there are as many and sometimes more females interested in Natusm.

Men have a lot of hang ups when it comes to being nude as women do...in fact men probably have more.

[Eternity]

In "offline" life I do talk more about nudism with my male nudist friends than my female ones. With the guys it's a much more popular discussion topic. I'm not sure why. That might be why more guys enjoy forums such as this?

[Naturist Mark]

Frankly, I don't think there is much hope for anything approaching gender balance in online nudist sites.

Things are much better at clubs and resorts, but frankly, women - especially unattached women - receive an often alarming level of attention. Even at those few places where "gender balancing" policies are implemented.

This site has a "women's only" section for that very reason.

If we ever start to experience a problem with too many women paying undue 'attention' to male visitors (no matter how well intentioned), I suppose this site will have to consider a "male only" section. (not holding my breath on that)

Many women simply participate online as men, or are deliberately ambiguous about their gender. Many couples use a single account. And a few men who like the attention pose as women - but that is an entirely different motivation - At this site that is a violation of the TOS (contact the moderators if you wish an exemption - I don't know if they would approve it, but as long as you have a good reason and it isn't for the purpose of deception it's worth a try).

Given all that, I am impressed by the women who are thick skinned and confident enough to post openly. I am not all that sure I would be able to do that.

Back in the early days of the internet, when dinosaurs roamed the 'nets and a 1200 baud modem was "high speed broadband", I was on AOL staff. One exercise we conducted for the benefit of male staff (oddly enough, at that time the majority of online staff at AOL were female) was to use feminine identities and visit a number of chat rooms. It was an eye opening experience, and led to my own laying down the law for my sisters and nieces that when going online they needed to always use masculine or ambiguous identities.

[Fitz1980]

In "offline" life I do talk more about nudism with my male nudist friends than my female ones. With the guys it's a much more popular discussion topic. I'm not sure why. That might be why more guys enjoy forums such as this?

Possible. I have been accused of sexism in the past for saying stuff like this and I probably will again but it seems that lots of good stuff is majority male. I'm a geek (sci-fi, video games, horror, things like that) and if you go to a "Geek-Convention" like Dragon*Con (a huge sci-fi/fantasy convention held yearly in Atlanta) males defiantly outnumber females. Lots of females wear crazy/sexy costumes and just bathe in all of the male attention that they get. I've known girls who were into other traditionally male things like professional sports, motorcycles or car engines and they say the same thing that when they let it be known that they are football chicks or car chicks the guys just circle them like a flock of buzzards. Most of my female friends are the girls who have mostly guy friends. Girly-girls rarely even interest me.

I guess that people just flock to folks who are in that gender minority. I know a guy who's a special education teacher in an elementary school. He's a young, good looking guy in a school where the faculty is over 90% female. He's practically having to beat some of these women off with a sick. As a young single dude he's loving it now, except for when females with wedding rings ask him for a quickie in the janitor closet or some girl who he took home last week introduces him to her fiance a week later at the school X-Mas party; and yes both of those things actually happened to him. In a few years if he's happily married, perhaps with a kid of his own, I'm sure it will get tiresome for these female co-workers to embarrassingly throw themselves at him if he's trying to stay faithful.

[afzilla]

Ha ha. Straight people are tramps.

I mean: Ooooh, all this out-and-out straight sexiness makes me very uneasy. Dragoncon is supposed to be about the innocent fun of comic books and SpEd is supposed to be about the innocent fun of 'tards, not about sexytime!! I daresay can't these heterosexuals keep it in their bedrooms like normal homos instead of flaunting it all the time. Won't somebody please think of the gay children?!?!?!

[Mutant]

No, there's probably not much hope for women in these online forums. They're becoming more and more sexist and bullying, like a bad sports bar filled with drunk, horny men high-fiving each other after a touchdown or whatever. The policies that are designed to attract more women to nudist venues are the same as those that are used to attract more women to bars, and I think women have grown wise to that. Women who want to get groped all night by aging jocks head on down to the "free drinks for ladies" bars. Those that want to dance without being pawed go to gay bars. I think these forums, as well as clubs, make such a desperate issue out of gender that women are freaked out and assume that they will be treated as objects once they enter the gates. It would be great if nudism could strive to be gender-blind, but I suppose dudes luv da ladies, hubba, hubba...

I don't want to just pick on guys, because there are plenty of women who love to be objectified and lusted after like a Hooters waitress. I just think the more intelligent, progressive-thinking women who are attracted to the nudist philosophy are quickly scared away by what looks like more of the same.

[jon71]

I would hope that eventually things will balance out. Realistically it may take a while but in most areas we are gradually moving towards balance in matters concerning gender, even if the move is sometimes slow. I'm optimistic, tempered with patience.

[usuallylurk]

Are we to accept that online nudism is mostly a guy thing? What can be done to make things better?

Eternity,

There is a private "Girl Talk" area on clothesfreeforums.com , and you can ask the board operators for access to it.

Another board = http://www.netnude.com , is owned and operated by a woman.

There is a private woman's discussion group on there. There is also a private men's discussion group on it as well. There's no reason that a group of naturist women can't organize a private Yahoo group --- or , if one doesn't exist on a particular bulletin board, ask the board's management to create one and restrict admission.

But to get an equal mix of women to men -- on an open board -- it isn't going to happen.

[Eternity]

lol ok so we all agree that the situation is hopeless unless the women get totally seperated from the men. Not a very practical solution if you ever want the 2 groups to mix online. The current situation is a little strange when compared to everyday life. Guys will be guys... but in everyday life they (mostly) behave themselves, so why is it so much harder to do so online?! I wish people would just grow up and give eachother the respect we deserve :rolleyes:

[SilentJ]

so why is it so much harder to do so online?!

Limited consequences of acting like an a**. People in forums everywhere say things to other people that they would never say in person. In person they would likely get punched, online the worst that will happen is they'll get banned from the site.

[Boreas]

When I started becoming involved with the Internet, I deliberately chose fairly gender neutral names on purpose. I chose "Boreas" here to indicate that I am in the north (it is the north wind) and because it is gender neutral. I did not indicate that I was female here until they started the female only section, then I had to reveal myself in order to be allowed in. When I first revealed I was female, I started getting all manner of PM's. That is why I have "Happily married in Canada" on my signature block. That stopped things!

I think women must just post on, and be a little thick skinned. Perhaps we can educate (or something) some of the men who are boars. We have to step up and take our places in the world in general, and in these male dominated places in specific.

Remember too, that there is a team of moderators who can also help shape behaviour, and get rid of those who chose to not play nice.

[Sanslines]

When I started becoming involved with the Internet, I deliberately chose fairly gender neutral names on purpose. I chose "Boreas" here to indicate that I am in the north (it is the north wind) and because it is gender neutral. I did not indicate that I was female here until they started the female only section, then I had to reveal myself in order to be allowed in. When I first revealed I was female, I started getting all manner of PM's. That is why I have "Happily married in Canada" on my signature block. That stopped things!

I think women must just post on, and be a little thick skinned. Perhaps we can educate (or something) some of the men who are boars. We have to step up and take our places in the world in general, and in these male dominated places in specific.

Remember too, that there is a team of moderators who can also help shape behaviour, and get rid of those who chose to not play nice.


You just tell us who PM'd you with inappropriate comments and we will yell them into submission and shame! Those men who are trouble...they just need a good sorting out! and Moonshadow is just the one to do it!

[Boreas]

You just tell us who PM'd you with inappropriate comments and we will yell them into submission and shame! Those men who are trouble...they just need a good sorting out! and Moonshadow is just the one to do it!

LOL. Did you not know about the code of ethics among women??? Without divulging details, be assured that we can handle things! :sneaky:

*of course, not to emasculate you, we know we can turn to you if we need the brawn instead of the brains! :p

[Sanslines]

LOL. Did you not know about the code of ethics among women??? Without divulging details, be assured that we can handle things! :sneaky:

*of course, not to emasculate you, we know we can turn to you if we need the brawn instead of the brains! :p

What........what......what is this in fine print about BRAWN INSTEAD OF BRAINS??? What are you really trying to say here Boreas...........could it possible be that MEN DON'T HAVE BRAINS???

WOW...that's a rather explosive comment to make!

[Boreas]

What........what......what is this in fine print about BRAWN INSTEAD OF BRAINS??? What are you really trying to say here Boreas...........could it possible be that MEN DON'T HAVE BRAINS???

WOW...that's a rather explosive comment to make!

LOL. Who me???? :angel: Are you saying I'd make explosive comments??? :surprised:

[Agde]

Boreas: I think women must just post on, and be a little thick skinned. Perhaps we can educate (or something) some of the men who are boars.

Sanslines: You just tell us who PM'd you with inappropriate comments and we will yell them into submission and shame! Those men who are trouble...they just need a good sorting out! and Moonshadow is just the one to do it!

Boreas: LOL... Without divulging details, be assured that we can handle things! :sneaky:


Maybe its just the people I socialize with, but in terms of gender stereotypes, I find there is a dwindling number of boarish men, and, by younger age group, dwindling almost geometrically. That said, I also think naturist men, in both clothed and unclothed settings, have a special responsibility to always politely and firmly confront any boar. In "offline" naturist settings, we naturist men do this as a reflex, and also know how to "handle things". :) In "online" naturist settings, we of course don't readily "overhear" the inappropriate comments.

So several linked thoughts.


First, it's up to all of us, not just the "thick skinned" women, to keep naturist spaces (online or offline) friendly, welcoming, protective and, in short, up to naturist standards.
Second, we naturist men are always ready to help deal with the boars and it is really good for naturist women to involve us so that the boars are in direct contact with better male role models and truly feel the reality of alternative gender attitudes and the solidarity of our community.
Finally, we are in a transition era where both men and women face a mixture of old and new personal and professional gender/role pressures, but since the general direction is toward routine gender respect, naturists can really be a force in leading the way.

This is why I would argue that there is indeed great reason to "hope for female nudism online" as women (and men) realize that naturism is all about finding a space where people can experience better values, even throwing off all their "coverings" and being their most vulnerable and unadorned selves in complete comfort.

[soflonudist]

The world of online is just that a world of its own. It doest exist in the way we know it. People on the web are hidden they wouldnt act how they do in public but because of this they act like jerks.

Its strange how people have manners, but they get here and suddenly they disappear. Though we have chosen to be natural, an alias is unnatural. And you dont have to be honest with yourself with one. However, deceit ruins the community.

I truly wish i knew how to change that, but mob mentality is hard to stop. Sorry, i've been of little help.

[MoonShadow]

You just tell us who PM'd you with inappropriate comments and we will yell them into submission and shame! Those men who are trouble...they just need a good sorting out! and Moonshadow is just the one to do it!

LOL

I agree with Boreas, women need to just come in and post and grow the thick skin. I enjoy posting here and am not very popular with some of the men (and some women), but hey, isn't that life? I have always been outspoken and will say things people won't like, but that is how I am. Shoot, even have a couple here calling me a murderer. LOL I guess you can't be called much worse.

I advise all the women here to post. You have a lot to say and to offer so step up and get those thoughts on the screen.

[Running Bear]

LOL
...I enjoy posting here and am not very popular with some of the men (and some women), but hey, isn't that life? ...
You sell yourself short. You are popular with me; we have shared many a debate and I value your input. Just because I often disagree with you does not mean I do not respect you.

[MoonShadow]

Thank you, Running Bear :)

Yes, not all and that is why we need what women there are on the forum to come on in and participate. It's fun even if you get bulldozed but you also have those who support you. Besides, this is a forum and not real life so what one says doesn't make or break what you do in your day-to-day. It's a great place to come and unwind and get into some debates.

Plus, you don't have to debate, just come in and share your experiences as a nudist as many do here. Even as some of the categories you can talk car shop, techni talk, girl talk, boy talk, etc.

Lots of places to share your thoughts without getting into debates.

[Cheri]

Computers as well as nudism, is generally a male-dominated thing. Women tend to keep their lives more private IMHO.

I also have lots going on in my life and don't have the time to visit all the forums/message board that are now out there.

Cheri

[Running Bear]

Women tend to keep their lives more private IMHO.
Cheri
Why? Is it fear of being a naturist, fear of being attacked, a gender genetic predisposition to being shy? do women gossip face to face and have no need to use the computer? Time (we should all have similar time restraints taken as a whole)?
I really cannot see how gender is significant because with the modern lady there should be no differences in the respect shown to either sex and as a result we should behave socially in similar ways? I do understand that there is always a degree of discrimination but we should all fight to remove that.
If I open my private life to this community does it not challenge our ladies to honour my trust and reciprocate?
...that be fighting talk :-)

[GregP]

Problem 1:
Honestly I think males are far more sexually repressed than females today. Females have the freedom to be sexy, and encouraged to flaunt what they have. Everyone is taught the penis is "ugly"; male body hair is disgusting; and speedos are "obscene". Well I think we're seeing a rebellion to that social repression. It results in more males than females wanting to get naked in a place they feel safe: online.

2nd problem:
Men are pigs. Okay, I don't really agree with that, but men are taught to be more sexually aggressive...fact. Women are turned-off by that behavior in the bar setting, and of course they will be EVEN MORE SO in the anonymous interent world.

Solution:
Help males feel they're bodies aren't so disgusting in the real world, and they won't be so aggressive and desperate in the online world.

[NudonyII]

Okay, I don't really agree with that, but men are taught to be more sexually aggressive...fact.

Well, that's an interesting perspective. But I think male aggression is much more "nature" than "nurture." Testosterone. I once watched this fascinating- yet creepy-documentary on men that purposely had their testies removed. And they displayed lessened levels of aggression, as well as reduced musculature. Yeap; no testosterone.

Sure, with thousands of years of PC conditionning, we are far evolved from our "predatorial" instinct of killing at will for survival, and "taking" a mate instead of politely asking for a date. But the instinct is still there. A nudist with some social experience knows better than to not repress that instinct; but there are a lot of guys out there that don't quite get it. And many women are quite sensitive to that fact.

[pDD-]

Are we to accept that online nudism is mostly a guy thing? What can be done to make things better?

Eternity i dont think nudism is more a guy thing i think that women should be online nudist as well as outdoor nudist i think what we need to do is be able to ensure women that they are safe online chatting in forums like this like u are doing because i pretty sure a womens main concern is a male making inappropiat comments about her this is about being naked and free not bout guys getting there rocks off over women who are being all natural and naked thats the biggest concern about online nudist

[walter05]

Even when the topic is what do women do when they get their periods, men find the need to dominate the conversation.

[Sanslines]

Thank you, Running Bear :)

Yes, not all and that is why we need what women there are on the forum to come on in and participate. It's fun even if you get bulldozed but you also have those who support you.

Right On!!!

[MoonShadow]

Even when the topic is what do women do when they get their periods, men find the need to dominate the conversation.

LOL --- this is true. For most of us nudist women, having periods was/is no big deal.


Heck yes, Sanslines!!!

[NudonyII]

Even when the topic is what do women do when they get their periods, men find the need to dominate the conversation.

I think many nudist men have an opinion on that subject that they share as means of encouragement. Many of us have S/Os, or have witnessed situations were nudist women are reluctant to go completely nude during their cycle. What most men are saying is: "Hey, it's okay; you can even leave the string hanging - it's perfectly alright!"

Of course, it's not so simple for many women. But when such subjects arise, I think it's quite normal for the nudist guys to jump up and say: "No, go for it, no problem!" That's going to happen no matter what the female topic is. And since there are more men than women posting, it's obviously going to come across as men dominating the conversation.

[MoonShadow]

You are quite right, NudonyII

[Agde]

Growing up, I had the clear impression that "naturist" activities were dominated by mom's. Now teaching at a university, I am convinced that, if naturism mirrors at all what is going on in the rest of society, we better expect that women, both in numbers and influence, will have a major impact on naturism in the near future, both on- and offline.

Naturist values already harmonize well with the leading preoccupations of young women. The general atmosphere of naturist forums and venues is also in tune. Its not going to take much to have more topics and activities that correspond to women's interests. Then just watch how fast they transform it, make it their own on their own terms, into a lively, progressive, attractive place for women to gather.
.
This is not to say men get left out. This university generation is more knowledgeable and comfortable with each other and gender issues. I got to participate in the transformation of traditional German-style naturism during the days of the "sexual revolution", but for all the emphasis on "women's lib", it really still was male dominated. It was a good start to breaking taboos and transforming gender roles, but its taken a generation or so for philosophy to take root in reality. This time around, it looks to me that the women are going to drive change.

For us older naturist men, what's coming is going to be somewhat unnerving. We are hard-wired, for instance, to think we have to protect vulnerable naturist women. Young women don't think they need protecting. They know how to "handle things" as Boreas says, and are not shy about demanding respect. But its even beyond that -- there is a profound sense of parity without particular reference to gender. For current naturist women, you are the leading edge. You can both make sure that naturism starts changing now, and also fling open the door to change by talking to other women and organizing new things for and with them.

It may sound like I am talking about a "feminization of naturism", but that's not it. What seems really to be happening is a huge shift in social and gender identity/roles which is going to make our current debates about gender balance kind of irrelevant. Hey, they just got Obama elected. Change is underway. There are already a few Millennials (http://www.gen-we.org/) on this forum. :)

[MoonShadow]

Good post Agde.

You made an excellent point that most of us women (and I am on the older end of the age spectrum) do not need or want men feeling like they have to "protect" us. I think this is a hold-over from the past stereotyping that the female gender is the weaker gender and of course, back in the day, women were to be protected, watched over, and supervised as this is what was expected. It comes from the master over his property mindset. It will take a few more generations for this way of thinking to absolve itself and that is if the fundamentalists don't win an edge as in fundamentalism this mindset is still being indocrinated among the congregations. Maybe, I should say poisoning their congregations' thinking.

Change will come, I truly believe, among the nudist venues where more and more women will join the lifestyle. But, as we all know, change among our species takes a long time. It will happen.

:)

[Sanslines]

Good post Agde.

You made an excellent point that most of us women (and I am on the older end of the age spectrum) do not need or want men feeling like they have to "protect" us. I think this is a hold-over from the past stereotyping that the female gender is the weaker gender and of course, back in the day, women were to be protected, watched over, and supervised as this is what was expected. It comes from the master over his property mindset. It will take a few more generations for this way of thinking to absolve itself and that is if the fundamentalists don't win an edge as in fundamentalism this mindset is still being indocrinated among the congregations. Maybe, I should say poisoning their congregations' thinking.

Change will come, I truly believe, among the nudist venues where more and more women will join the lifestyle. But, as we all know, change among our species takes a long time. It will happen.

:)

So, basically what you are saying is that there is NO hope for female nudism on line. In other words, the situation is completely and utterly hopeless. I am glad that we now have this confusion cleared up.

[Boreas]

So, basically what you are saying is that there is NO hope for female nudism on line. In other words, the situation is completely and utterly hopeless. I am glad that we now have this confusion cleared up.

I don't see that. I see MoonShadow saying change will happen.....in time.

Agde, I like your post, and I agree. Perhaps the changes our sisters started in the sixties will become true transformation now. I know it will be scary for all concerned, especially men. I think it will be better for all in the long run.

[Sanslines]

I don't see that. I see MoonShadow saying change will happen.....in time.


Moonshadow is speaking in Arapapo code. Those with Algonquian blood in their veins will be able to decipher the code.

[Boreas]

Moonshadow is speaking in Arapapo code. Those with Algonquian blood in their veins will be able to decipher the code.

Well, I grew up in Algonquian territory but I have blonde hair and blue eyes, so you can guess about the bloodlines there! :sneaky:

[MoonShadow]

Sorry, Sanslines, I didn't have any Algonguian roots as where I am originally from (Florida) didn't have many tribes of that group. Mostly the Chimaucayos, the Ocales, the Pensacolas, the Seminoles and the Tocabagas are the most familiar tribes we have. Of course, there were tons more before white face destroyed the villages and took the land over.

[Sanslines]

How about an Apache code? Will that work for anyone??

[Boreas]

Well, I am in Dane Zaa territory. There are also Cree folks here. They are friends, not family. I have yet to learn their code. :)

[MoonShadow]

LOL Boreas!

Sanslines, you speak the Apache code?

[Agde]

Cool! I'm learning all sorts of new stuff -- Apaches I knew about, but until now I thought Algonguian code was created by chatty intellectuals at a posh hotel (http://www.algonquinhotel.com/al_round_table.html) in New York City. :wiseguy:

[MoonShadow]

LOL Agde! Too funny

[Boreas]

Cool! I'm learning all sorts of new stuff -- Apaches I knew about, but until now I thought Algonguian code was created by chatty intellectuals at a posh hotel (http://www.algonquinhotel.com/al_round_table.html) in New York City. :wiseguy:

LOL. Perhaps that IS what Sanslines meant! :p

[Agde]

May the spirit of Dorothy Parker and Edna Ferber -- women outnumbered by men at the Algonquin Round Tabl (http://www.algonquinhotel.com/pop_roundtable.html)e -- inspire smart humility among the men and lively repartee by the women of Clothesfreeforum, Amen :)

[LanceAtCaliente]

Problem 1:
Honestly I think males are far more sexually repressed than females today. Females have the freedom to be sexy, and encouraged to flaunt what they have. Everyone is taught the penis is "ugly"; male body hair is disgusting; and speedos are "obscene". Well I think we're seeing a rebellion to that social repression. It results in more males than females wanting to get naked in a place they feel safe: online.

2nd problem:
Men are pigs. Okay, I don't really agree with that, but men are taught to be more sexually aggressive...fact. Women are turned-off by that behavior in the bar setting, and of course they will be EVEN MORE SO in the anonymous interent world.

Solution:
Help males feel they're bodies aren't so disgusting in the real world, and they won't be so aggressive and desperate in the online world.

This old-timer has to agree with Greg. When I was coming of age in the late-1960s and early-1970s, what Greg said here pretty much held true. Know what? It seems to still hold true. Just my opinion.

Peace.

[LanceAtCaliente]

Growing up, I had the clear impression that "naturist" activities were dominated by mom's. Now teaching at a university, I am convinced that, if naturism mirrors at all what is going on in the rest of society, we better expect that women, both in numbers and influence, will have a major impact on naturism in the near future, both on- and offline.

Naturist values already harmonize well with the leading preoccupations of young women. The general atmosphere of naturist forums and venues is also in tune. Its not going to take much to have more topics and activities that correspond to women's interests. Then just watch how fast they transform it, make it their own on their own terms, into a lively, progressive, attractive place for women to gather.
.
This is not to say men get left out. This university generation is more knowledgeable and comfortable with each other and gender issues. I got to participate in the transformation of traditional German-style naturism during the days of the "sexual revolution", but for all the emphasis on "women's lib", it really still was male dominated. It was a good start to breaking taboos and transforming gender roles, but its taken a generation or so for philosophy to take root in reality. This time around, it looks to me that the women are going to drive change.

For us older naturist men, what's coming is going to be somewhat unnerving. We are hard-wired, for instance, to think we have to protect vulnerable naturist women. Young women don't think they need protecting. They know how to "handle things" as Boreas says, and are not shy about demanding respect. But its even beyond that -- there is a profound sense of parity without particular reference to gender. For current naturist women, you are the leading edge. You can both make sure that naturism starts changing now, and also fling open the door to change by talking to other women and organizing new things for and with them.

It may sound like I am talking about a "feminization of naturism", but that's not it. What seems really to be happening is a huge shift in social and gender identity/roles which is going to make our current debates about gender balance kind of irrelevant. Hey, they just got Obama elected. Change is underway. There are already a few Millennials (http://www.gen-we.org/) on this forum. :)


On a more serious note this time:

Thank you so much, Agde, for your most erudite and insightful post!

Folks, I love Agde's input anytime I encounter it for this very reason: It's well-thought-out and spot-on. Being an "armchair sociologist" is one of my favorite passtimes, and I'd have to say that Agde is absolutely correct here with his observations stated in this quoted post.

Personally, I think this is a WONDERFUL development. Moreover, I'll very much "go out on a limb" here and emphatically say:

I would not be at all suprised if many of the G8 countries evolve toward a MATRIARCHAL society! I'm serious! Even though I'm a guy, my wife can assure you that I'm far from "the typical guy." Personally, I feel that matriarchal societies would, in many ways, be a good thing!

The Economic Meltdown that we see occurring worldwide, I believe, is occurring because we have reached the logical limits of the "ground rules and assumptions" underlying the economies of the G8 nations. And, folks, those "ground rules and assumptions" were created, grown and enforced by ... men.

Well, I'm off-topic, so I'll stop babbling about that.

Suffice it to say that young women will take naturism by storm. I believe that Agde is absolutely right. My only regret is that I'll be an old man as this takes place and will have missed out on being young and experiencing the more sane and balanced naturist culture that will develop from this occurrence.

To Eternity: You are at The Leading Edge of all of this, young lady, so you're a trendsetter! Yay!

You go, gals! Peace.

[NatureFred]

Yet another random NatureFred observation that may not apply directly to the topic under discussion.

When I was a freshman at Wash U in St Louis (1976), the dorm I was in was co-ed, with alternating boy rooms and girl rooms. There were two big bathrooms in the center of the floor and two little bathrooms at the ends. Since it was a former boys-only dorm, all had urinals as well as toilets and showers.

For some reason, the two big bathrooms were designated Women's, and the little ones, Men's. We boys felt that was unfair and petitioned to switch a big and little bathroom. The Housing Administration wouldn't do it. So we took direct action and occupied one of the big bathrooms one day, marching boldly in and using the urinals, taking showers, etc etc.

The girls, however, didn't stop using that bathroom. In fact, in short order everyone just began using whatever bathroom was closest to their room, regardless of their sex. Since you might end up taking a shower in a stall adjacent to one where someone of the opposite sex was showering, folks stopped worrying about walking from their room to the shower wrapped in just a towel. I chatted over my shoulder to girls while using the urinal, passed a bottle of shampoo over the partition to the girl in the next shower stall, etc.

Now (finally!) here's the interesting part: boys on this one floor of this one dorm stopped pestering the girls for dates, stopped making snarky jokes about their underthings drying on the windowsills, and in fact started forming friendships that weren't based on who looked hot but rather on who was interested in the same stuff we were interested in. Even one of the Resident Advisors commented on it--it's like you guys are all brothers and sisters or something.

Where am I going with this? I think here: the solution to men's bad behavior toward women is to swamp them with contact with women. They shouldn't just see women when they're trying to make a good impression on the boys, they should see them in their skivvies with a towel wrapped around their hair, no makeup, in sweats, and, of course, naked when sex isn't on offer.

Take the mystery and magic away, and let us all see each other as human beings.

So, mutatis mutandis, perhaps the solution to the online pressure on females is for females to deliberately swamp a board with their presence. Talk about your periods, your pimples, your corns. Talk about your kids, your financial worries, and (of course) the jerks who hassle you. Take away the mystery and magic. And (of course) give the jerks so many potential victims that they get whiplash trying to ogle all the booty at once and hurt themselves.

Of course, this puts it all on you--you tougher women who are already here will have to be the vanguard, and recruit the army that will swamp the board and make it work. All we men can really do is model good behavior once the army is here.

[Boreas]

Hi Nature Fred, I had a similar experience when I was in the army reserve. We were in a barracks that had separate, shared rooms. Four men or four women would be in each. The wing was L-shaped and the women were altogether in the short part of the "L". There were bathroom facilities on each part, so sharing didn't happen, and the size was appropriate for the number of people. The women were supposed to use a separate door but we didn't. I was in a service support unit that was close to 50/50 men/women. The men in our unit or other similar units treated us like human beings, and did not make any fuss if we happened to go through their section when they were wrapped in a towel. The men from male only, combat arms units got all stupid and roosterish when we went through. We ignored them. We also made comments to the effect that they did not have anything special that we had not seen before. They, or some of them, just started acting as normal as they could. Regular interaction did help.

[Stu2630]

Fred


the solution to men's bad behavior toward women is to swamp them with contact with women. They shouldn't just see women when they're trying to make a good impression on the boys, they should see them in their skivvies with a towel wrapped around their hair, no makeup, in sweats, and, of course, naked when sex isn't on offerAn interesting social experiemnt and, while it's always a good thing to control bad behaviour, male or female, there are other issues to be considered. If everyone is OK with mixed facilities such as you describe - fine. But some people would not be OK with it. Me for one.

Also, some parents would not be OK with it for their kids - especially their daughters. I would go crazy if that arrangement had applied when my eldest daughter was at university.

When I was at university, we knew what was expected of us. Young adults should know how to behave there and if they can't behave properly, they should be booted out. Trying to engineer a situation in which people are naked or near-naked in close proximity is not the right way to ensure they maintain reasonable standards of behaviour.

Stu

[MoonShadow]

Here comes the anti-ness. Whirring has begun again.

[NatureFred]

Fred

If everyone is OK with mixed facilities such as you describe - fine. But some people would not be OK with it. Me for one.

Also, some parents would not be OK with it for their kids - especially their daughters. I would go crazy if that arrangement had applied when my eldest daughter was at university.

Stu

It used to be that the college experience was one where the college tried to break the students out of their accustomed molds and enable them to experience new and challenging ways of thought. Nowadays it seems to me that parents hover over their kids so much that they're using the power of the pocketbook to make sure the colleges don't do that anymore: college becomes just an extension of their own rules and expectations. And, not coincidentally, just a job-training institution as well.

Society's loss, if you ask me.

[Pete Knight]

It used to be that the college experience was one where the college tried to break the students out of their accustomed molds and enable them to experience new and challenging ways of thought. Nowadays it seems to me that parents hover over their kids so much that they're using the power of the pocketbook to make sure the colleges don't do that anymore: college becomes just an extension of their own rules and expectations. And, not coincidentally, just a job-training institution as well.

Society's loss, if you ask me.
Institutions such as university, or the forces build character, and individuality, but Stu is only interested in turning out Stu clones, in controlling rather than guiding his children, and is trying to extend that control to people like us.


Pete Knight

[walter05]

You said. emphasis added by me:



Now (finally!) here's the interesting part: boys on this one floor of this one dorm stopped pestering the girls for dates, stopped making snarky jokes about their underthings drying on the windowsills, and in fact started forming friendships that weren't based on who looked hot but rather on who was interested in the same stuff we were interested in. Even one of the Resident Advisors commented on it--it's like you guys are all brothers and sisters or something.



I am glad that the bad behavior lessened.

If one takes the view that sex is bad, then this experience was totally positive. However, it appears that there was less sexual attraction.

I am actually sorry that there was less sexual attraction.

As a father of four daughters, I have to admit that I would agree with Stu on this one.

If the bathroom was a unisex bathroom with showers, then I am sure there were inadvertent invasions. I would not want a naked college age male to open the curtain on one of my daughters showering nude.

I also would not want a college age male to walk in while my daughter is at a sink, unzip his pants and urinate in front of her.

If I was a college age male, my attitude may have been different. However, as a father of daughters, I would possibly make a lot of noise about this.

(Remember this was a non-nudist setting.)

[Fitz1980]

I also would not want a college age male to walk in while my daughter is at a sink, unzip his pants and urinate in front of her.

If your daughter has guy friends I'll guarantee that she's seen guys do that before anyway. When kids that age are tailgating outside of a concert/sporting event or drinking at a party where a line forms at the bathroom the guys who have to go will just turn to the nearest bush and take a leak. It was so common among my regular concert going friends that I would act as lookout for female friends so that they could "pop a squat" in the bushes or behind a car.

[walter05]

If your daughter has guy friends I'll guarantee that she's seen guys do that before anyway. When kids that age are tailgating outside of a concert/sporting event or drinking at a party where a line forms at the bathroom the guys who have to go will just turn to the nearest bush and take a leak. It was so common among my regular concert going friends that I would act as lookout for female friends so that they could "pop a squat" in the bushes or behind a car.

My daughter does not go to concerts, sporting events or drinking at parties.

She has seen brothers and other young males urinate. I am sure she knows that all males have penises and that we use them to urinate.

However, that does not mean that I still don't object to a college age male unzipping, taking his penis out and urinating in front of her.

[Oldman]

You said. emphasis added by me:



I am glad that the bad behavior lessened.

If one takes the view that sex is bad, then this experience was totally positive. However, it appears that there was less sexual attraction.

I am actually sorry that there was less sexual attraction.

As a father of four daughters, I have to admit that I would agree with Stu on this one.

If the bathroom was a unisex bathroom with showers, then I am sure there were inadvertent invasions. I would not want a naked college age male to open the curtain on one of my daughters showering nude.

I also would not want a college age male to walk in while my daughter is at a sink, unzip his pants and urinate in front of her.

If I was a college age male, my attitude may have been different. However, as a father of daughters, I would possibly make a lot of noise about this.

(Remember this was a non-nudist setting.)


As a nudist, I would have faith in the way that I had raised my children, that nudity wouldn't bother them. After all, college age children are near adults... usually over 18.
That fact that it wasn't a "nudist-setting" seems irrelevant. If people are nude and it is non-sexual such as just showering or urinating in a shared bathroom, sounds pretty much a nudist setting to me. I never fell into the belief that nudity is only permitted in certain sanctioned situations such as nudist households, nude beaches or nudist clubs.

[walter05]

Since you are a nudist, I would have confidence in you also.

American college age males raised by Hollywood and Madison Avenue are different.

[Oldman]

Since you are a nudist, I would have confidence in you also.

American college age males raised by Hollywood and Madison Avenue are different.

The point I was making is that I doubt your girls(raised nudist) would be upset by males appearing before them while they were nude. If the males acted inappropriately, I would imagine your girls would know the appropriate responses to make.

There are plenty of Co-ed dorms across the US and Canada. I have heard of very little problems coming from them. Certainly no problems have been reported at the local University, where Co-ed dorms are the norm. And I imagine that Canadian college age males are exposed to much the same media as American males. Young adults tend to behave far better than their stereotyped image.

[gb]

Please post. love to hear from the ladies!!! Let's all live naked!! The best way to be!!

[Ken Palmer]

Hello Pete Knight. This has always been a problem for females regarding nudism in general, whether it is on the Internet or at resorts,clubs or beaches. As you may probably already know, this will continue to be on ongoing problem or concern as long as males and females mingle in the nudist environment. This is sad to say of course. But let's face it. A lot of males either join nudist clubs or visit them for the sole purpose of seeking or gawking at females. I am not saying all of them do though. And as long as that problem exists, this will always tend to drive away a large number of females.

Ken Palmer





I really don't know, that would be best coming from the female perspective, but overall I think the Electric Interweb is a mainly male dominated area anyway.

I know several ladies who surf, and quite a few on naturist forums, but some have been put off by approaches from men, and even the innocent messages can be quite tiresome.

My friend dropped out of Skinbook because of all the messages she was getting, she said they weren't crude or suggestive on the whole, just tiresome. I advised her to ignore them.

As for friends or buddy list invitations, I simply ask those inviting me to write a little about themselves and why they want to be my chum, its not much to ask is it? Extensive lists of friends are pointless if you don't have a common interest (Besides naturism.) or you know them, or even plan to get to know them.

I refuse requests from people who simply send a blank request, unless I know them, as is the case on my Skinbook page and the BN forum, a lady friend on the BN forum has disabled her friends list, so no one can request her friendship.

A feeling of harassment has to be the main reason why there are so few ladies signed up to forums.

Pete Knight

[Ken Palmer]

Hello Eternity. You may be right here. Guys tend to be more interested in nudism discussion that women do. In the eyes of a lot of women, guys tend to make a bigger deal about it than women. Women kind of accept it more maturely and go on with life as if it were nothing or not a big deal about it. I hope I am communicating my point understandably and clearly. I also hope this post helps you any.

Ken Palmer




In "offline" life I do talk more about nudism with my male nudist friends than my female ones. With the guys it's a much more popular discussion topic. I'm not sure why. That might be why more guys enjoy forums such as this?

[Stu2630]

KenPalmer


Guys tend to be more interested in nudism discussion that women do. In the eyes of a lot of women, guys tend to make a bigger deal about it than women.

Guys tend to be more interested in nudism than women. I suspect that women have a different relationship with nudity, both their own and the nudity of others, than men do and that might explain the different levels of interest in nudism by the sexes.

Non-nudist women married to nudists may be uncomfortable with the whole situation of nudism. They are likely to feel more vulnerable than their partners. They may wonder why their partners want other men to see them naked.

Because an overwhelming majority of people are not nudists, public facilities have to adopt a default "textile" policy in managing their premises. That applies to school and university residential quarters, the armed forces, hospitals and other places where people have to go.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Those who seem to be objecting to coed dorms also seem to have never set foot in one and have no practical experience upon which to base their opinion on.

Just because young men and women may be naked in the same bathroom does not mean that they are going to start having sex either in the bathroom, out in the hallways, or in their rooms. Rest assured that plenty of traditional textiles engage in all of this kind of activity and then some! Just because someone is naked does not condone or excuse bad behavior that has nothing to do with being nude.

What is so hypocritical in society is that society wishes to contiune to promote a typical 'Ozzie and Harriet' kind of existence and will not acknowledge the realities of life.

[NatureFred]

You said. emphasis added by me:
If one takes the view that sex is bad, then this experience was totally positive. However, it appears that there was less sexual attraction.

I am actually sorry that there was less sexual attraction.


I didn't actually say there was. I said boys stopped pestering girls for dates. That doesn't mean we found them unattractive. I also said that friendships started forming because of mutual interests rather than a more superficial measure of who looked hot. I think both of these are signs of maturity, not loss of sexuality. (Not that we were all that mature -- we still had a big problem with graffiti in the hallways, for example.)

I have a daughter who's going off to college in a couple of weeks. I would be happy to have her live in a dorm with the atmosphere of the one I've described, even if she had an occasional embarrassing moment in the bathroom. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what could possibly be wrong with it.

[walter05]

I have not raised my daughters as nudists.

Sanslines;

I have familiarity with a freshman dorm at The University of Georgia known as Russell Hall. Back in the late 80s, on weekends, the bathrooms did become unisex. Freshmen who were bringing co-eds in were then walking down the hall naked with them, showering with them, and at times having sex with them in clear view.

It is healthy for young college aged men and women to find each other sexy. They train each other how to interact respectfully even when there is a sexual attraction involved. However when the sex is open, it trains them to see each other as sexual objects. When two people have sex for the purpose only of sexual gratification, it is little more than masturbating and using another body for it.

Walter

I think that the co-ed dorm may lead to open sex. However, it does nothing to teach young men and women how to deal with the sexual attraction. Therefore, I would prefer not to have them.

NaturistFred;

If find your clarification helpful. I don't agree with your preference. However, I don't object to it for your daughters if you choose.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines


Those who seem to be objecting to coed dorms...

I don't think anyone's objecting to their existence, but I would certainly object if I were forced to share a dorm or bathroom with females. Many years ago, I was asked to work in London for 5-weeks on a research project. Rather than put me up in a hotel for that extended period, my employers tried to put me up in a sort of "centre" where I had to share some facilities with a group of (all female) students on a modelling course arranged by some agency.

At first I had no objections as the centre was quite pleasant and I had the privacy of my own room, as did another (male) colleague of mine who was also there at the same time as I was, although our rooms were very small. The students shared two to a room and we had to share a comon sitting area with a TV, a kitchen-***-dining room and several small, individual bathrooms. Aside from the fact that these young ladies were very raucous, they had the habit of wandering around the common areas in skimpy underwear messing around with their hair or daubung make-up on each other. That made me very uncomfortable. If I objected, that would actually make them even worse (just to tease me, I suspect).

I complained to my employer and, after some heated discussions with the personnel manager, we were both put up in a large, 4-star hotel which was then called The White House, in Albany Street (it's still there and is now called The Melia White House). That was far more "civilized". It must have cost my employer a lot more, but that was their hard luck by trying to be so penny pinching in the first place!!

Places such as this are substitute "homes" - we are entitled to be comfortable in them and to expect others to behave in ways that are generally acceptable to all.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines;

I have familiarity with a freshman dorm at The University of Georgia known as Russell Hall. Back in the late 80s, on weekends, the bathrooms did become unisex. Freshmen who were bringing co-eds in were then walking down the hall naked with them, showering with them, and at times having sex with them in clear view.

It is healthy for young college aged men and women to find each other sexy. They train each other how to interact respectfully even when there is a sexual attraction involved. However when the sex is open, it trains them to see each other as sexual objects. When two people have sex for the purpose only of sexual gratification, it is little more than masturbating and using another body for it.


I was not talking about part time unisex bathrooms or living arrangements. I was talking about dorm buildings where coeds lived in alternating rooms or shared the same rooms. Many coed apartments located off campus have been occupied with both male and female roomates who do not always bother to wear clothes in front of each other.

The situation that you describe is more about coeds whose express purpose is to have sex or to engage in activities that have nothing to do with mere nudity. When both males and females are in close proximity together and are naked, they become accustomed to nudity and do not automatically switch into 'sex mode'.

Most freshman dorms also have an RA (resident assistant) who is generally an upperclassman and lives among them. He is there get to know the students on his or her floor and to help them with a myriad of problems and prevent other problems. Mixed nudity on dorm floors, in and of itself, has not been a problem. Other separate problems, that many wish to incorrectly associate with nudity, were a problem.

[walter05]

I understand your points better now. Thank you for the clarification.

[Running Bear]

...A lot of males either join nudist clubs or visit them for the sole purpose of seeking or gawking at females...
Ken Palmer

This seems rather blinkered.

Do not a lot of females also join nudist clubs or visit them for the sole purpose of seeking or gawking at males? Women are just as guilty of voyeuristic tendencies as us men. I do not accept that motive of a naturist should have a sexual preference and suspect that under the skin we are all equal (or should be). I do suspect or hope that the majority as suggested is much more in reality a minority.

And we must not forget that some naturists gawk at same sex people because they are not heterosexual.

[Oldman]

This seems rather blinkered.

Do not a lot of females also join nudist clubs or visit them for the sole purpose of seeking or gawking at males? Women are just as guilty of voyeuristic tendencies as us men. I do not accept that motive of a naturist should have a sexual preference and suspect that under the skin we are all equal (or should be). I do suspect or hope that the majority as suggested is much more in reality a minority.

And we must not forget that some naturists gawk at same sex people because they are not heterosexual.


Based on the experience I have had running Lilly Valley, I have noticed that if there is a paucity of younger women in the yard, then quite a few of the younger male day visitors will shorten their stay to less than 1/2 hour. If there are a number of young women in the yard, the same males will stay so long as the ladies are there. This may not be hard science, but ,... draw your own conclusions.

[Pete Knight]

Based on the experience I have had running Lilly Valley, I have noticed that if there is a paucity of younger women in the yard, then quite a few of the younger male day visitors will shorten their stay to less than 1/2 hour. If there are a number of young women in the yard, the same males will stay so long as the ladies are there. This may not be hard science, but ,... draw your own conclusions.
Yeah, we've all seen the bees around the honeypot scenario, but some ladies actually like the attention, but it does depend on the attitude of the guy, and whether the girl appreciates the attention or wants to be left alone.

I've had the attention of gay men, some are just nice but obviously trying it on, but others are just too pushy and are damned annoying. I also have some female admirers, but I'm not attracted to them at all, but the ones I like show no interest; Life's a ***** isn't it.

Pete Knight

[MoonShadow]

LOL Pete! Yes, it is at times.

I don't have admirers anymore as I am an older woman. But I do remember the days. ;) When we were younger, the men stayed longer.

:)

[Running Bear]

LOL Pete! Yes, it is at times.

I don't have admirers anymore as I am an older woman. But I do remember the days. ;) When we were younger, the men stayed longer.

:)

Does age preclude admiration? I think not!

I really admired a wrinkly at a club whose doctor had advised recuperation following a hip operation. She booked a few weeks at a naturist club. Admired her greatly but naturally did not want her to have my babies :-)

One of my male mature walkers brought a young female textile photography student on our last walk. She was studying how an over 70 led an interesting life and most certainly was full of admiration. Although a textile she had no problem with being with five naked men and called us gentlemen (blush).

[Pete Knight]

and called us gentlemen (blush).
She doesn't know you as well as I do! :sneaky:

Pete Knight

[lewisis]

In my opinion there are too many sleazy derelicts out there...I dont blame the girls for keeping to themselves....perhaps they should......the world is still just one big meat market ...even the girls who brave the Internet chat scene find themselves being coddled beyond reason...overprotected in my estimation. my wife is rather disturbed by the lack of subject matter on the chat sites.....sure, a huge subject is going to be naked sites and new or old places to go....but nudity is not a destination in my opinion, nudity is the road one travels. public venues seem to be more interesting in that they elicit a broader range of activities and subject matter. but whether in public places or in chat rooms ive always noticed that even the so called legitimate males sometimes pose in ridiculous ways just to assure the observer that they do have a lower proboscis. im not sure what that really means psychologically, but the excessive display is rather disturbing to some. I dont think the naturalist community will ever be able to self regulate. just too many different opinions about what is proper and whats not.....I know of at least one youthful female moderator on this site who displays improper behavior and also advances her own ego regularly rather then allow the natural rhythm of conversation to flow....perhaps thats the main problem with the whole nudist movement on the net. immaturity and ego overwhelm cyberspace which lowers standards to some common denominator too low to attract reasonable and interesting persons...male or female. if you want to attract interesting persons who will perhaps feel comfortable nude in front of others then i believe the only option is to make the sites too difficult for the average perv (male or female) to access...this probably means exclusive memberships.....I dont really know the answers....but i see what happens on this site when the last good looking or playful female leaves the chat room, she is followed by 50% of the male guests. i wonder what it was they were seeking; friends, or an opportunity to go shopping in the meat market, or to be the object of a shopper? then there is the other side of the coin.....many girls love to be looked at when clothed, if the observer is attractive......so men, being rather visually oriented, and still while using the same set of eyeballs, and when viewing a naked woman are frequently rebuffed and sent a nasty verbal or body language message indicating they have trespassed and caused some artificial offense. this certainly complicates the whole makeup and structure of human intercourse (look it up in the dictionary). i certainly dont like being looked at by gays as a sexual object (it creeps me out), and im sure the girls arent impressed either by drooling misfits, unless of course they find the observer pleasing. maybe thats a problem as well....the observed try too frequently to sort and regulate the observers. who knows...certainly not me....but i am of the opinion that married nudists seem to have better times then 'normal' singles. I know of a nudist camp in Oregon that does not allow singles......not because they dislike single persons, but because they have less problems with married couples.....they told me they do not want to attract gays either.....well its their right to accept who they want to enter the gate.....I think what they really dont like is the meat market atmosphere, nor the extreme overt sexual content indicative of many gay relationships......whether hetero or homo, id rather not have my kids observing their public passion either. ive seen advertising which offers nude venues to only gays......so ive had my say...take it with a shot of bourbon if you like....its only one mans opinion based on a variety of experiences and encounters spread over the course of 32 years as a nudist. Im 51 now, and im confident we will be having this same conversations 32 years from now ...have a great day.....

[Running Bear]

She doesn't know you as well as I do! :sneaky:
Pete Knight
We all acted like gentlemen, how else could we behave? The lady also acted like a lady. Respect for all enjoying a countryside walk. The dress code was just more liberal. The only swinging I noted was the inability of our lady to swing her leg over the last style because we had tired her out frolicking in the moorland as free-spirits.
Here we are enjoying the snow fields of Exmoor in my case munching a chocolate cream egg. We were dressed appropriately for the conditions (naked) from 1pm till about 5pm and really enjoying life. Great views, great weather, great company, free as an eagle.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3462/3296200421_94ee73e749.jpg

[NJNude1965]

My 2 cents is if you are going to be in this lifestyle you have to take the good with the bad.