Alternatives to Cystoscopy

[Stu2630]

I was in hospital just before Christmas with a suspected kidney stone. I had severe pain in my right flank and blood in my urine. I was given an ultrasound of my kidney area two days later, but that showed nothing and, by that time, the pain had moved to my lower abdomen (and had become far less severe). Further tests showed there was still blood in my urine so, just before New Year, I was sent for a CT scan as an out-patient.

The Urology Department got my CT result last week but refused to tell me what it showed on the phone. Instead, they sent me an appointment for a "flexible cystoscopy". I phoned to say i had no intention of having such a procedure unless it could be shown to be a matter of life or death and cancelled the appointment. Instead, they have sent me a later appointment to have a "discussion" with the urologist.

Does anyone here know what, if any, alternatives there are to cystoscopy? My daughter (a doctor) has heard of "non-invasive virtual cystoscopy", but I can't find out what it entails or whether it offers a practical alternative to the traditional kind.

Thanks

Stu

[Sanslines]

I was in hospital just before Christmas with a suspected kidney stone. I had severe pain in my right flank and blood in my urine. I was given an ultrasound of my kidney area two days later, but that showed nothing and, by that time, the pain had moved to my lower abdomen (and had become far less severe). Further tests showed there was still blood in my urine so, just before New Year, I was sent for a CT scan as an out-patient.

The Urology Department got my CT result last week but refused to tell me what it showed on the phone. Instead, they sent me an appointment for a "flexible cystoscopy". I phoned to say i had no intention of having such a procedure unless it could be shown to be a matter of life or death and cancelled the appointment. Instead, they have sent me a later appointment to have a "discussion" with the urologist.

Does anyone here know what, if any, alternatives there are to cystoscopy? My daughter (a doctor) has heard of "non-invasive virtual cystoscopy", but I can't find out what it entails or whether it offers a practical alternative to the traditional kind.

Thanks

Stu

Stu,

What are your reasons for objecting to a cystoscopy procedure? Cystoscopy is the best way to examine the insides of the urethra, bladder, and to a certain extent the prostate. This procedure is commonly used when there is evidence of blood in urine.

[Stu2630]

Sans

As you know, I can't contemplate people seeing me partially naked or touching my private parts.

A appreciate what you say about the benefits of cystoscopy, but I'm guessing that there must be others who, perhaps for cultural or religious reasons, would be unwilling to have such a procedure. So there must be an alternative, even if it's not as beneficial.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sans

As you know, I can't contemplate people seeing me partially naked or touching my private parts.

A appreciate what you say about the benefits of cystoscopy, but I'm guessing that there must be others who, perhaps for cultural or religious reasons, would be unwilling to have such a procedure. So there must be an alternative, even if it's not as beneficial.

Stu


Stu,

I understand your reasons but from a medical point of view, a cystoscopy procedure is mildly painful as it is done with local anasthesia. I believe that your doctor is recommending this procedure to examine the inside of your urethra for possible ulcers, or other reasons ( I don't want to scare you) concerning the lining of the urethra. A cystoscopy is also used in conjunction with an ultrasound of the bladder (and prostrate) to determine if there might be problems. There really is no better way to look inside of a person than a cystoscopy. It is basically a flexible tube with a light on the end of it so that they can examine the inside of the urethra, bladder, and if there is a restriction of the urethra due to enlarged prostrate. Ultrasound, CT scan, etc certainly have their purposes but do not allow a clear view of the inside of the urethra and bladder. The images from those methods can be rather inconclusive and hence why the cystoscopy is being recommended.

Concerning a related topic, a colonoscopy is often recommended for the purpose of examining the colon for cancer and polyps. In the past, before such a procedure was availible, numerous people developed colon cancer that was not detected in time for life saving treatment.

I understand your hesitation for such procedures, but it is best that you have a closed door talk with your urologist asap to discuss your apprehensions as well as whether your urologist would be comfortable with the results of alternate procedures that may not be definitive enough for your 'blood in urine' condition.

Since you mentioned 'blood in your urine' perhaps this information may be helpful:

In medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), hematuria (or "haematuria") is the presence of red blood cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cells) (erythrocytes) in the urine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine). It can be a sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_(medicine)) that there is a kidney stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone) or a tumor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumor) in the ureter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ureter), urinary bladder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_bladder), prostate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate), or urethra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urethra). kidneys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney) and the urinary tract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_tract), ranging from trivial to lethal. If white blood cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cells) are found in addition to red blood cells, then it is a signal of urinary tract infection.

Types



Red discolouration of the urine can have various causes:

Red blood cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell)

Microscopic hematuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microscopic_hematuria) (small amounts of blood, can be seen only on urinalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinalysis) or light microscopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_microscopy))
Macroscopic hematuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macroscopic_hematuria&action=edit&redlink=1) (or "frank" or "gross") hematuria

Hemoglobin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin) (only the red pigment, not the red blood cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell))
Other pigments

Porphyrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrin) in porphyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria)
Betanin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betanin), after eating beets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beet)

Analysis




A patient will be asked a number of questions:

Have you passed any blood clots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_clot)?
Has a kidney stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone) been passed (noise in toilet bowl)?
Is the red colour mixed in completely, or does the colour change during an episode of urination?
Does it occur only after getting up?
Have you recently had a sore throat?
Diagnosis

Often, the diagnosis is made on the basis of the medical history and some blood tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_test)—especially in young people in whom the risk of malignancy is negligible and the symptoms are generally self-limited.
Ultrasound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound) investigation of the renal tract is often used to distinguish between various sources of bleeding. X-rays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray) can be used to identify kidney stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone), although CT scanning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computed_axial_tomography) is more precise.
In older patients, cystoscopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystoscopy) with biopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopsy) of suspected lesions is often employed to investigate for bladder cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladder_cancer).

Causes




Common causes of macroscopic hematuria/ haematuria (i.e. blood visible in the urine) include:

Benign familial hematuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_basement_membrane_disease)
Urinary Schistosomiasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis) (caused by Schistosoma haematobium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosoma_haematobium)) - a major cause for hematuria in many African and Middle-Eastern countries;
IgA nephropathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgA_nephropathy) ("Berger's disease") - occurs during viral infections in predisposed patients;
Kidney stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone) (or bladder stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladder_stone));
Bladder cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladder_cancer);
Renal cell carcinoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal_cell_carcinoma) - occasionally presents with bleeding;
Paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paroxysmal_nocturnal_hemoglobinuria) - a rare disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_disease) where hemoglobin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin) of hemolysed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolysis) cells is passed into the urine.
Urinary tract infection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_tract_infection) with some bacterial species including strains of EPEC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli#Urinary_tract_infections) and Staphylococcus saprophyticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staphylococcus_saprophyticus)
Sickle cell trait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_trait) can precipitate large amounts of red blood cell discharge, but only a small number of individuals endure this problem
Arteriovenous malformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arteriovenous_malformation) of the kidney (rare, but may impress like renal cell carcinoma on scans as both are highly vascular)
Nephritic syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephritic_syndrome) (a condition associated with post-streptococcal and rapidly progressing glomerulonephritis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomerulonephritis)).
Fibrinoid necrosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrinoid_necrosis) of the Glomeruli ( as a result of malignant hypertension)
Ureteral Pelvic Junction Obstruction (UPJ) is a rare condition beginning from birth in which the ureter is blocked between the kidney and bladder. This condition may cause blood in the urine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematuria

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Cystoscopy:

Endoscopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endoscopy) of the urinary bladder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_bladder) via the urethra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urethra) is called cystoscopy. Diagnostic cystoscopy is usually carried out with local anaesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaesthesia). General anaesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_anaesthesia) is sometimes used for operative cystoscopic procedures.

When a patient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient) has a urinary problem, the doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician) may use a cystoscope to see the inside of the bladder and urethra.

The urethra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urethra) is the tube that carries urine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine) from the bladder to the outside of the body. The cystoscope has lenses like a telescope or microscope. These lenses let the doctor focus on the inner surfaces of the urinary tract. Some cystoscopes use optical fibres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber) (flexible glass fibres) that carry an image from the tip of the instrument to a viewing piece at the other end. The cystoscope is as thick as a pencil and has a light at the tip. Many cystoscopes have extra tubes to guide other instruments for surgical procedures to treat urinary problems.

There are two main types of cystoscopy - flexible and rigid - differing in the flexibility of the cystoscope. Flexible cystoscopy is carried out using local anaesthesia on both sexes. Typically, lidocaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidocaine) gel (such as the brand name Instillagel) is used as an anaesthetic, instilled in the urethra. Rigid cystoscopy can be performed under the same conditions, but is generally carried out under general anaesthesia, particularly in male subjects, due to the pain caused by the probe.


A doctor may recommend cystoscopy for any of the following conditions:<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystoscopy#cite_note-0)</SUP>

Interstitial Cystitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_Cystitis)
Frequent urinary tract infections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_tract_infection)
Blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood) in the urine (hematuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematuria))
Loss of bladder control (incontinence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_incontinence)) or overactive bladder
Unusual cells found in urine sample
Need for a bladder catheter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catheter)
Painful urination, chronic pelvic pain, or interstitial cystitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_cystitis)
Urinary blockage such as from prostate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate) enlargement, stricture, or narrowing of the urinary tract
Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone) in the urinary tract
Unusual growth, polyp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyp_(medicine)), tumor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumor), or cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer)
Male and female urinary tracts
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Cystoscopy-im-20050425.jpg/250px-Cystoscopy-im-20050425.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cystoscopy-im-20050425.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cystoscopy-im-20050425.jpg)
Images from a cystoscopy. The top two images show the interior of the bladder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_bladder) of a male patient. In the top-right image, the cystoscope has been bent within the bladder to look back on itself. The bottom two images show an inflamed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation) urethra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urethra)



If a patient has a stone lodged higher in the urinary tract, the doctor may use a much finer calibre scope called a ureteroscope through the bladder and up into the ureter. (The ureter is the tube that carries urine from the kidney to the bladder). The doctor can then see the stone and remove it with a small basket at the end of a wire which is inserted through an extra tube in the ureteroscope. For larger stones, the doctor may also use the extra tube in the ureteroscope to extend a flexible fiber that carries a laser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser) beam to break the stone into smaller pieces that can then pass out of the body in the urine.

Test Procedures

Doctors may have special instructions, but in most cases, patients are able to eat normally and return to normal activities after the test. Patients are sometimes asked to give a urine sample before the test to check for infection. These patients should avoid urinating for an hour before this part of the test.

Patients will have to remove their clothing covering the lower part of the body, although some doctors may prefer if the patient wears a hospital gown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_gown) for the examination and covers the lower part of the body with a sterile drape. In most cases, patients lie on their backs with their knees slightly parted. Occasionally, a patient may also need to have their knees raised. A doctor, nurse or technician will clean the area around the urethral opening and apply a local anesthetic.

Patients receiving a ureteroscopy may receive a spinal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_anaesthesia) or general anaesthetic.
The doctor will gently insert the tip of the cystoscope into the urethra and slowly glide it up into the bladder. The procedure is more painful for men than for women due to the length of the urethra. Relaxing the pelvic muscles helps make this part of the test easier. A sterile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)) liquid (water, saline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saline_(medicine)), or glycine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine) solution) will flow through the cystoscope to slowly fill the bladder and stretch it so that the doctor has a better view of the bladder wall.
As the bladder reaches capacity, patients typically feel some mild discomfort and the urge to urinate.

The time from insertion of the cystoscope to removal may be only a few minutes, or it may be longer if the doctor finds a stone and decides to remove it. Taking a biopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopsy) (a small tissue sample for examination under a microscope) will also make the procedure last longer. In most cases, the entire examination, including preparation, will take about 15 to 20 minutes.

After the test, patients often have some burning feeling when they urinate and often see small amounts of blood in their urine. Occasionally, patients may feel some lower abdominal pains, reflecting bladder muscle spasms, but these are not common.

Common prescriptions to relieve discomfort after the test include:

Drinking 32 fluid ounces (1 L) of water over 2 hours.
Taking a warm bath to relieve the burning feeling.
Holding a warm, damp washcloth over the urethral opening.
Some doctors will prescribe an antibiotic to take for 1 or 2 days to prevent an infection. However, recent trends have been to discourage this kind of prophylactic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophylaxis) treatment (prescribing antibiotics as a preventative when there is no other evidence of infection) because it tends to increase the rate at which bacteria develop resistance to the antibiotic drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystoscopy

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I assume that your urine has already been checked under a microscope for bacteria as this is a standard and initial test.

[walter05]

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/cystoscopy-16692 is a link for information.

http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/guide/cystoscopy is another link.

http://www.kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/cystoscopy/ is a link that describes the procedure.

Your life, health, and/or quality of life may depend on it. For someone without your hangups about nudity, this is an invasive, potentially embarrassing, and potentially uncomfortable procedure.

However, if there may be stones in your bladder or prostate, a possibility of cancer, etc. the cystoscope is the best way for your doctor to find out.

I would tell your doctor the truth. Tell him or her how embarrassed you are. The doctor should help you through it.

Please, I beg of you. You are worth it. Don't wait.

If you don't think you are worth it, think about your wife and daughter. They need you.

[Fitz1980]

Sans

As you know, I can't contemplate people seeing me partially naked or touching my private parts.

A appreciate what you say about the benefits of cystoscopy, but I'm guessing that there must be others who, perhaps for cultural or religious reasons, would be unwilling to have such a procedure. So there must be an alternative, even if it's not as beneficial.

Stu

If it wasn't for the fact that you have been here for so long I'd have to ask if you were serious. I still kind of wonder...

But as far as the rest goes, I'm going to go with Dr Perry Cox (a fictional character from the show 'Scrubs')

Patient:
I'm a Jehova's Witness, I can't get a transfusion. We believe that blood should not be passed from person to person

Dr. Cox:
Well I'm a doctor and we believe that without surgery a patient in your condition can suffer from a major case of deadness.

Carla:
Don't worry, he will figure out another way to treat you

Dr. Cox:
[laughing as he walks off]
Hehehe! No he won't!

Later on in the ep Carla confronts him and points out that he had previously jumped through a bunch of hoops to help a patient who was allergic to the standard treatment for some ailment. He pointed out that the allergic patient didn't choose to be allergic to whatever medication while the religious one is choosing to place irrational beliefs above basic science and medical treatment.

So my answer to you is that you are choosing to be difficult for no other reason than your irrational hangups. If you have a medical problem than you should DO WHAT YOUR DOCTOR (and indeed all reputable doctors) RECOMMEND YOU DO. If you do not than you have only yourself to blame for the consequences.

Sorry for flying off the handle. But my Mom is a nurse so I know that medical professionals bust their butts daily trying to save people and even when they do everything that they could nature, luck or God doesn't always cooperate and people die so I get frustrated when patients CHOOSE to make things harder for no rational reason and expect to be accommodated.

BTW this is all assuming that Stu is serious here. I still don't know if he's a troll or sock puppet. I've seen dedicated loons who posted crazy untrue stuff daily to boards just to get a rise out of people, but never any who's posts were so long an well thought out.

[walter05]

I found this after my post. http://prostatitis.org/cystoscopy.html

I think this may help you.

Walter

[Sanslines]

Stu,

This is what virtual cystoscopy is all about:

UroToday.com - Bladder cancer is one of the common urological malignancies, with the need for life-long follow-up. It represents 4.5% of new cancer diagnoses. The gold-standard of current diagnosis, as well as follow-up involves direct visualisation of the bladder mucosa with the use of a flexible/rigid cystoscopy.

There are however, problems with instrumentation of the urinary tract for visualisation, including urethral trauma, which may cause late stricture, as well as infection, and failure to visualise the mucosa due to debris or blood. Contraindications include acute cystitis, prostatitis, urethritis, occlusive prostatic enlargement, and urethral stricture.

CT virtual cystography (VC) has emerged as a potentially viable alternative to current invasive methods of bladder visualisation. Using 3D technology, the technique was first proposed by Vining and co-workers in North Carolina (USA), and either involves:

1). Passing a urinary catheter, and using double contrast with CO2 and radio-opaque dye, or:
2). Using IV contrast, with no need to instrument the urinary tract.

VC can be performed using either CT or MRI, though the latter is time-consuming, expensive, and labour intensive (though slightly more sensitive and specific). Sensitivity and specificity of CT VC has been reported in a number of papers since 1995 to be as high as 95% and 87% respectively for identifying bladder tumours, and 95% and 93% respectively for identifying abnormal bladder mucosa due to all causes.

Problems include the size of visible lesions, being poor for small (<4mm), and flat lesions such as carcinoma in-situ. Another disadvantage is that the urologist is unable to manage any lesion found immediately, for example by fulguration, and cannot provide tissue diagnosis. It will place an extra burden on already busy CT scanners, and will require specialist review of images.

Whilst it is recognised that the limitations of CT virtual cystoscopy currently prevent its mainstream clinical use, it is hoped that in the future, with advances in technology, the technique may be of practicable use.

Written by: Michael Kipling, MRCS, Aza Mohammed, MRCS, as part of Beyond the Abstract on Urotoday.com

UroToday - the only urology website with original content written by global urology key opinion leaders actively engaged in clinical practice.

To access the latest urology news releases from UroToday, go to: www.urotoday.com (http://www.urotoday.com)

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/120407.php

The bottom line with all of this information is that it will be up to your urologist to decide what are the best tests for you based upon the specific information that he has.

My experience with some of these modern digital methods can be summed up with a comparison of traditional dental xrays to the more modern digital images. There still is a great deal of controversy in the dental community concerning the advantages and disadvantages of one method over another. Digital techiques can be advantageous over traditional to the extent that the software that controls and generates the 3-d images is sufficienly developed and refined. Such refinements occur on a continuous basis. A parallel can certainly be drawn between traditional medical procedures versus 3-D computer geenrated non invasive procedures and this also include cystoscopy.

[walter05]

As I have looked over the information, I have seen enough posts from men such as this:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: green; LINE-HEIGHT: 12pt" colSpan=3>Ed: </TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; LINE-HEIGHT: 10pt" colSpan=3>in my case, cystoscopy turned out to be of the utmost importance and benefit as it disclosed a malignant polyp in my bladder which had simulated very well the symptoms of BPH and/or prostatitis. There was no blood in my urine which is a classic indicator of bladder cancer. According to my urologist, the urine test for cancer was negative prior to the cystoscopy. So, I cast a definite vote for having it done. It is not comfortable but not as bad as you think it will be. Good luck! </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I have also seen some that indicated that the procedure was a failure if the prostate was too large.

I know this will not sound better to you. But, you may want your doctor to try a digital rectal exam first. Palpitation of the prostate to see if it is enlarged may help indicate how painful the procedure will be or not.

[Stu2630]

Sans

it is best that you have a closed door talk with your urologist asap to discuss your apprehensions as well as whether your urologist would be comfortable with the results of alternate procedures that may not be difinitive enough for your 'blood in urine' condition.

Yup, that's what my eldest daughter recommended and it's pretty much what I had in mind. As I said, if this were a life-or-death decision then I'd bite the bullet, but I believe it is more a matter of routine, i.e. that if they have a patient with unexplained haematuria, they get a cystoscopy. I'm not playing that game. And I want to know what, if any, alternatives there are.

Thanks for all the information about it!

Walter

I appreciate your thoughts. As I explained to Sanslines, I would find a cystoscopy traumatic and I'm not prepared to go through that "just to be on the safe side" because that's what they like to do for people with a microscopic amount of blood in their urine.

Thanks for the prostatitis link - I'll read that.

Fitz

Thanks for your input, too.

Medical professionals at this side of the pond are sometimes blase about people's sensitivities and sensibilities and personal dignity is often utterly disregarded. Of course I don't want to die, but sometimes we have to make a calculated decision of risks versus benefits.

What I was hoping for here was someone with a medical background or other knowledge of this area to explain the possible alternatives to this highly unpleasant, invasive procedure, so that I would be able to discuss it with the urologist from a position of knowledge. I Googled it but have found very little.

Stu

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

Thanks for the info on virtual cystoscopy - that IS very interesting! Obviously, I'd go for option 2:

2). Using IV contrast, with no need to instrument the urinary tract.

I'll suggest that to the urologist. Far more civilized! ;)

Walter

The digital rectal exam is also something I will be avoiding unless i am convinced we are in life-or-death territory. My Dad has had that done and it sounds horrendous.

Stu

[walter05]

The advantages of the DRE are simple. Your anus and rectum are bigger than your urinary meatus and urethra.

The doctor may suspect cancer. If it is stones, the smaller they are, the better the options.

I hate to tell you this, but it is for your own good.

It is time for you to face this fobia.

Please explain your problem to your doctor.

Then drop your pants. Your doctor has seen and examined thousands of rectums and urethras. This is your problem not his.

However, the longer you wait, the worse it will be and the more your life is in danger.

P.S. Perhaps Pete or one of the other nudists in the U.K. that you communicate with can help you.

Walter

[Stu2630]

Walter

I've just bee reading the link you sent me showing other men's experiences of cystoscopy. Many confirm my worst fears!!! For example:

If he uses flexible telescoping cystoscope, the process is psychologically demeaning,

I found it deeply embarrassing...The cysto did nothing for me related to prostatitis

Some of the men were even treated by female nurses and urologists!

I will certainly explain my problem to the urologist, but that won't mean it will cease being an issue. It won't. It's also clear that there are alternatives, such as virtual cystoscopy, and I will be suggesting these be considered rather than something which is "psychologically demeaning" and "deeply embarrassing".

Stu

[walter05]

I have not attempted to lessen your fears. I understand, given your history, why there is a lot of that.

The alternatives are not as good. If there is cancer, getting it early before the fear of metastesizing is most important.

I had Legionaire's Disease. At one point just before losing conciousness, a Folly catheter was put in. I found that embarrassing, and at one point painful. A male nurse put it in, but two females were there. It was embarrassing for me not just because I was exposed, but having a male nurse grab my penis, squeeze the glans and stick something in in front of them was embarrassing. Then when the urine started coming out of the tube, I felt worse.

The nurses seemed not to notice. They were used to it.

However, I got through the embarrassment, I am alive and healthy.

I don't want you to be the late, unembarrassed stu.

P.S. Pete is a nudist in the U.K. that you have exchanged e-mails with. Perhaps it would help to talk to him in person.

Walter

[David77]

Stu,
Sometimes blood thinners (like Coumadin) can cause blood in the urine.

On 3-17-08 I had a total hip replacement because of bad arthritis. Then Coumadin, a blood thinner was prescribed. I quickly saw blood in the urine and had to again stay in the hospital another week, when many tests were done, but all the tests found no abnormality. However, when the doctor stopped the coumadin, the urine turned normal again.

I'm sorry that I do not understand why so many men (like your father and my brother) hate the digital protate exam so much. I guess that I have a relaxed, calm "rear end" and others have an apprehensive tight "rear" that is so painful to penetrate. Before this exam, doctors tell their patient to relax (those muscles).

As for the cystoscope, I do not remember finding it painful.

As for the colonoscopy exam, I have had two of these exams in the last 25 years. Befor the first of these exams, I strongly requested that they not give me anything to make me unconscious for the exam, and they obliged. The pain was not severe.

For the second colonoscopy the doctor refused to go along with my request for no anesthesia, so I was "put under". When I woke up, of course I did not remember any of the exam procedures.

When I had an eye operation, they gave me some medication that made me feel that I did not care, nor even have any concern about the eye operation. I do not know the name of the medication, but maybe your doctor daughter couod recognize this medication so that you could take it during the needed exams. Then you would not give a damn regarding you previous concerns. Oh happy day (hour)!

[NudeTopher]

Does anyone here know what, if any, alternatives there are to cystoscopy? My daughter (a doctor) has heard of "non-invasive virtual cystoscopy", but I can't find out what it entails or whether it offers a practical alternative to the traditional kind.

Thanks

Stu

There is no way you are going to get me to believe that Stu is either not a troll or seriously mentally ill.

A physician recommends him for a test which he refuses to go for since it would involve one's touching his "privates".

His supposed daughter is a physician, but he comes here looking for medical knowledge.
1) How did he ever produce a daughter without his private parts becoming public. Oh...that's right perhaps it was a turkey baster.
2) If you had a child that was a physician wouldn't that be who you ask about medical issues (besides your own physician)?
3) If someone is so weirded out about their own body that they won't seek proper medical treatment they really should seek psychiatric intervention.
4) As many have said before, wtf is he doing here? He is a mentally ill lonely troll who has absolutley nothing to do with his so called life.

[Boreas]

I was in hospital just before Christmas with a suspected kidney stone. I had severe pain in my right flank and blood in my urine. I was given an ultrasound of my kidney area two days later, but that showed nothing and, by that time, the pain had moved to my lower abdomen (and had become far less severe). Further tests showed there was still blood in my urine so, just before New Year, I was sent for a CT scan as an out-patient.

The Urology Department got my CT result last week but refused to tell me what it showed on the phone. Instead, they sent me an appointment for a "flexible cystoscopy". I phoned to say i had no intention of having such a procedure unless it could be shown to be a matter of life or death and cancelled the appointment. Instead, they have sent me a later appointment to have a "discussion" with the urologist.

Does anyone here know what, if any, alternatives there are to cystoscopy? My daughter (a doctor) has heard of "non-invasive virtual cystoscopy", but I can't find out what it entails or whether it offers a practical alternative to the traditional kind.

Thanks

Stu

Hello Stu, you may have had your appointment by now, or may even have had a resolution to your problem. I hope so, and that all is well. I wish you the best and hope that you heal well.

That being said, I still find it difficult to believe that you would risk your health and possibly your life because of your neurotic fear of being nude. Yes, neurotic. When you fear medical procedures in the name of modesty, it has become neurotic. When you think in the grand scheme of things, how much time out of your life is this procedure??? I encourage you to seek help for this neurosis. That does not mean you have to endure seeing naked people. It does mean you can get proper and timely medical care. Medical procedures aren't necessarily comfortable. They are often a necessary evil.

Good luck.

[Flanudedude]

Stu,
I have battled kidney stones for the better part of 20 years and have undergone 5 lithotripsies, the most recent one 2 months ago. I also have had 2 cystoscopies for bladder stones caused by my enlarged prostate. The cystoscopies were not in any way painful because the doctor lubricatated the scope with lidocaine gel which numbed the lining of my urethra. Stones are extremely painful. I have been rushed to the emergency room on countless occasions with mind numbing pain as I was passing the stones. You obviously have not endured that kind of pain, YET, because if you had this thread would be completely irrelavant. Stones can cause a backup of urine into your kidneys causing hydronephrosis. This can permanently damage the kidneys. I also have had many digital exams over the years because of my prostatitis issues. It is not a big deal. I have a friend, my age 49, who had his colon and rectum removed due to a cancer that was found at the end of his colon by his rectum. It was 7 years old and the size of a fist by the doctor's estimate. His wife was furious at the doctor for having missed the tumor since he had al physical exam every year. It turns out that his doctor asked him if he wanted a digital exam and he refused. Now he has a colostomy bag and will never have to worry about the indignity of a digital rectal exam. Poor choice in my mind for 10 seconds of embarrassment.
I was very modest as a kid until I realized how egotistical it was for me to think that I was so special that I would stand out above all others if my naked body was seen by others. That was a cathartic moment and I am happier and more self confident, and I may add, healthier because of it.
By the way, I am a doctor, a veterinarian so I do have medical training in addition to personal experience.

Hope this helps and good luck.
Pat

[walter05]

If I was Stu and had those feelings of modesty, I might find it easier talking to a stranger than a daughter. That is reasonable.

If Stu does agee to the exams at some point, he will probably be less embarrassed with a stranger. I know this is illlogical to you but I understand it.

Stu;

Flananude gave great advice.

I want to amplify. You want your doctor to have as much information about your situation as possible. This could save your colon, rectum, kidneys, or life.

Please save your life. With your doctor's compassionate health, you can do this.

Walter

[FishyDave]

I've had a couple of proper cystoscopies, and if there's a safe, non-invasive alternative, then I'm all for it. The irony of the procedure was that (in my case at least) they squirted an anaesthetic down there first which burned like hell. The aftermath of the procedure is even less fun - you're 'peeing glass' (being polite) for 24 hours or so afterwards, and the second one had me wearing one of the wife's sanitary towels the following day because it had led to temporary incontinence.

Stu, I understand you have a lot of issues about the appearance of your genitals, but you can rest assured that the urologists have seen all manner of birth defects and mutilations prior to yours. In case I haven't mentioned it before, my urinary problems stem from a genital birth defect, and I too have had to come to terms with personal issues over my equipment not being to factory spec. I don't claim to know the half of what you've been through, but I may just understand that little bit better than most. If it's any consolation, my urologist did the whole lot, including administering the local, while the rest of the surgical staff stood well back. I'm sure they can arrange something similar for you.

I wouldn't go down the radio opaque dye route if you can possibly avoid it. I ended up having an IVP after one of my cystoscopies, and only later found out that the dye can actually cause permanent kidney damage. Seriously, if there's no risk-free non-invasive alternative then my best advice would be to take the regular cystoscopy, close your eyes and imagine you're somewhere else (unless you really want to see your prostate gland on the telly.)

The same goes for the old finger up the bum test (which is invariably the first thing they try when you complain of urinary troubles.) It's not even uncomfortable - it's just weird and has some nasty psychological connotations for many heterosexual men. It's over before you know it, and nowhere near as distressing as people tend to make out.

[Pete Knight]

Stu
We may have crossed swords on numerous occasions, and we rarely see eye to eye, but I seriously hope you can overcome your irrational gymnophobic tendencies to get yourself properly examined.

Explain to your specialist that you have deep psychological issues with the offered treatment, it may be possible for you to have a general for the duration of the procedure.

Even if you can't do it for yourself, do it for Mrs Brutus and the baby Brutus's, you owe it to them. I lost my father to cancer on 19th Dec 2008, please don't put your family in the same position that I find myself in now.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

David77, Walter, FishyDave, Boreas and Flanudedude

Thank you for your input and advice. I will take to heart what you said to me.

My eldest daughter qualified in medicine in July last year, so she is what is called an “F1” doctor, presently working on a surgical assessment ward in a large, city hospital. I do discuss my problems with her on a superficial level; she is amazingly knowledgeable in light of her lack of experience and I know she means well when she gives advice. The problem with her is, I am afraid, she has acquired a rather unbalanced, almost arrogant, view of her own profession. As much as I admire her, and am proud of her, for the terrific achievement in qualifying as a doctor, she can be quite disdainful of people who are not medical professionals making judgments and decisions for themselves. While I respect doctors for their professional skills, I don’t regard them as superhuman and I do know that sometimes they advocate procedures merely because they are “routine” rather than because they are necessarily the best course for the particular patient. My daughter gives the impression that she doesn’t think doctors should ever be questioned or challenged by patients and it irritates her when I dare to do this. Sorry, but I’m an intelligent chap and I have a right to know, and make decisions about, what is happening to my own body.

My appointment came through today to see the urologist – it’s at 3.30pm a week today, 12th January. It is a “consultation” appointment rather than an extended “treatment” one, so I intend to use the time I have with him to discuss and evaluate my options. I’m no hero and I’m no fool. If he convinces me that either my life is at risk, or else I am likely to suffer some major health implications, if I do not undergo that specific procedure, i.e. the “flexible cystoscopy”, then I’ll have to have a re-think. But if, as I suspect, he is expecting me to accept it “just to make sure”, then I really am willing to take a (statistically) very small risk in order to avoid the trauma of this procedure. You are nudists and so you already start from a different perspective to mine and I can’t really expect that to make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Pete

Believe me when I say that if the urologist says anything like “I seriously suspect you may have prostate (or bladder) cancer”, then I’ll be rolling over like a puppy and letting him do whatever he likes.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the anaesthetic – if I do have to have something invasive, I’ll do what you suggest and ask to be knocked out for the procedure. I would also require an undertaking that only male members of staff to be present during the procedure, which I’m sure they would accommodate.

Stu

[walter05]

Your daughter is a new doctor. At this point, her view is normal. However a lot of us would be uncomfortable having a discussion about our penises, anuses, and/or prostates with our daughters. I understand your embarrassment there.

The problem is that the prostate gland is complicated. It is very difficult to tell if there is a tumor in much of it.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/wyntk/prostate is another site and there is even a live chat option. It is an excellent resource.

My gut feeling is that it is important not to take your approach. If we went to Las Vegas, and there was a chance to bet 10,000 with with little to gain, and only a small chance of losing, we would be idiots to bet. Betting with your life is more foolish.

Most of us have had digital rectal examinations. They are simple enough and involve no pain.

If your doctor says he/or she suspects anything, this is a simple way to find out. If I were you, when you go to the doctor next week, be prepared to pull your pants down and bend over. A gloved finger through the anus is a simple enough way to get confirmation or not. (Not perfect, but helpful.)

You don't believe in a creator. I do. Perhaps your creator senses a lack of love for yourself because of your body issues. This might be a gift to you to force you to face them.

I don't think many on this site would consider me a nudist. I am however comfortable with it.

Lastly, I share your concern about trusting the doctors. If I were going, I would want another man with me. I think you are right that it would be easier with someone, such as a nudist, who is not embarrassed about the male body. Perhaps Pete can help you or help you find someone to go with you.

Walter

[Pete Knight]

Perhaps Pete can help you or help you find someone to go with you.

Errm, thanks for offering my services, but Stu and I are quite a distance apart, I'm sure he has plenty of friends and family close at hand, meanwhile I'm caring for my recently widowed mother.

Pete Knight

[Boreas]

Thanks for the update Stu. Good luck with the exam, I hope it goes well for you.

I think Walter is right when he says this might be a gift to you that forces you to face those issues that nag you. Believe it or not, getting over them, even a little bit, will be a big relief.

[walter05]

If you can't and he contacts you, perhaps you can help put Stu in contact with someone?

Walter

[FishyDave]

You are nudists and so you already start from a different perspective to mine and I can’t really expect that to make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Philosophically, there's probably always been some naturism in me, as I've always been comfortable being naked in my own company. But I went through the surgery and the first cystoscopy well before I'd even considered trying social nudity. I certainly had hang-ups about not being normal in the trouser department, and I felt emotionally damaged by the condition and the treatment that I'd received for it.

With hindsight, the procedure is only as degrading as your mind allows it to be. If I had to thank naturism for one thing alone, it's the fact that it's genuinely brought me to accept my body as a whole. That might sound like patronising twaddle, but it's the honest truth. I've reached a point where I believe I can honestly say I'm indifferent about the whole thing, rather than trying to convince myself that I've embraced it while secretly resenting it.

Just one last thing: I realise now that what I said earlier might well have put you even further off the cystoscopy. To put it in perspective from a discomfort point of view - if you offered me the choice between having another cystoscopy or having a tooth filled, I'd take the cystoscopy any day. Drink plenty of water afterwards, and it doesn't even sting too badly when you 'go.'

[Sanslines]

Stu will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Stu started this thread only to seek information concerning alternatives for traditional cystoscopy due to the personal reasons that we are all aware of. Stu is intelligent enough to discuss and question his own personal physician concerning his own health. None of us are qualified to do anything more then offer information and perhaps make a few suggestions. I am certain that Stu will do as he sees fit.

I agree with Stu concerning the arrogance of doctors (along with others). Some do get offended when questioned. Hopefully Stu will not have this problem with his own personal physician. Also, hopefully Stu has private health insurance so that he does not have to deal with the National Health! Now is the time for BUPA!

(Yes Stu I have been to the doctor's surgery as well as seen the circus that goes on in the National Health hospital infirmary wards. BUPA is a superior alternative.)

[Pete Knight]

If you can't and he contacts you, perhaps you can help put Stu in contact with someone?

Walter
Oh yes, if he needs a water treatment plant constructed and commissioned I'm his man, but as far as medical services go I think his daughter is better qualified.

Stu is a smarter man than I, its just that his phobia fogs his view of life, so I'm sure that he is well cared for by better than I, and will be fine when he overcomes his own personal issues.

But thanks for having faith in me.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Boreas

Good luck with the exam, I hope it goes well for you.

Thank you!!!

FishyDave

I've reached a point where I believe I can honestly say I'm indifferent about the whole thing, rather than trying to convince myself that I've embraced it while secretly resenting it.

Exactly my point, Dave. You are at a different place to people like me and I accept it has some advantages.

Just one last thing: I realise now that what I said earlier might well have put you even further off the cystoscopy. To put it in perspective from a discomfort point of view - if you offered me the choice between having another cystoscopy or having a tooth filled, I'd take the cystoscopy any day. Drink plenty of water afterwards, and it doesn't even sting too badly when you 'go.'

The physical discomfort of it really isn't the issue for me. It's the embarrassment. I would feel seriously violated. Yes, I know it's in my mind, but that doesn't make it any less real. It's no consolation to a woman raped by a stranger that there are millions of women who are prostitutes who have sex with strangers every day.

Sanslines

I believe that Stu started this thread only to seek information concerning alternatives for traditional cystoscopy due to the personal reasons that we are all aware of.

Exactly right. Also, I know that nudists are uninhibited in discussing issues such as this, so I felt comfortable broaching this topic here with you all. You should take that as a sincere compliment!

Also, hopefully Stu has private health insurance so that he does not have to deal with the National Health! Now is the time for BUPA!

I don't have private health insurance, but I am fortunate in that I am sufficiently wealthy to pay privately for any treatment I need. I was in an NHS ward just before Christmas and I resolved then to go private next time.

Pete

I know that if I wanted to discuss my health concerns with you, you wouldn't turn me away. But you are right that I am already well catered for in that respect.

Stu

[David77]

It's the embarrassment. I would feel seriously violated. Yes, I know it's in my mind, but that doesn't make it any less real.

If you care to work on this modesty and anxiety, I think that probably the following would be a benificial approach.

You state that no one sees you nude and that you have sex with your clothes on. I would think that you also turn off the light first, so that your wife does not see it (but merely feel it). Therefore start off gradually by letting your wife see it for a slightly longer time each day, so that you will, hopefully, feel less anxious about it each day.

You state that you are on the "governing board" at your exercise facility.
When the plan with your wife is mildly successful, start to innocently drop your towel for a second when someone in the changing room can see your genitals. Gradually increase the time your wife, as well as someone in the changing room may see your genitals until you become comfortable enough to let your doctor see your genitals.

This is not practical because we are not in England, but some of we naturist would be glad to help you overcome this anxiety by viewng your genitals periodically until you became comfortable (and bored).

I have learned that anyone with a phobia must face the phobia with such as these suggestions. For example, people with a phobia about flying in an airplane must eventually actually fly in an airplane to try to overcome their phobia.

I realize that when you were a child, professionals stared at your genitalia and took pictures for a medical book. Since you state that your genitals look normal now, you would not again get the same dreaded curious reaction.

I hope that you can overcome and get the needed cystoscope with relative ease.

[walter05]

You may have an infection. If you do, your semen could infect your wife. I would avoid sex with her, for her protection, until you have a diagnosis.

However, David's ideas or using the health club to get over your fears are reasonable.

I still think if you talk to your doctor, he may have a solution.

Massage therapists often have draping techniques. Perhaps you only need to be exposed for a minimal time.

Your comparison to rape is not a fair comparison. But it does help me recognize how serious this is. But if a woman is threatened with rape and has a choice of giving it up or being killed, I hope she puts saving her life first.

I pray you put your life first.

[Boreas]

The physical discomfort of it really isn't the issue for me. It's the embarrassment. I would feel seriously violated. Yes, I know it's in my mind, but that doesn't make it any less real. It's no consolation to a woman raped by a stranger that there are millions of women who are prostitutes who have sex with strangers every day.

Stu, if you do have to have this procedure talk to the doctor. They are trained in how to deal with invasive procedures. For instance, when they do pap tests and such for women, they are on the alert for someone who may have been sexually abused and traumatised, and will treat the woman who has been abused with a little more care than normal. If your doctor knows your feelings he (I know you will ask for a male doc) will take them into consideration. Doctors know these procedures are embarassing and intrusive and try to make the experience as comfortable as possible....under the circumstances.

[Boreas]

Your comparison to rape is not a fair comparison. But it does help me recognize how serious this is. But if a woman is threatened with rape and has a choice of giving it up or being killed, I hope she puts saving her life first.

Actually the rape example is likely very apt given Stu's background. When children have to undergo medical procedures at a young age, they often have very similar reactions as those of a rape victim. Medical procedures are very intrusive when you think of it, and more so for a young child.

[Smiley]

In the "for what it's worth" column, I"ve been battling bladder cancer for the last 6 years and so far, I'm still a winner. I've never been particularly modest to start with but after a cystoscopic surgery to remove some growths and the ensuing overnight stay in the hospital complete with a catheter and nurses in and out all night changing the collection bag, I have no modesty anymore at all. I'm still a but uncomfortable about cystoscopic exams but that has more to do with pain than anything else. Several years after the surgery I had a TUMT, transuretheral microwave therapy for a swollen prostrate, so the cysto exam is probably more painful for me than for most men. I undergo the cysto exam twice a year and soon to be only yearly.

What I'm trying to say is that faced with embarassment or death by cancer, I'll choose life. It doesn't bother me a bit anymore to drop my pants for exams. .I'll even joke with the nurse who preps me and usually have her laughing before she's finished.

[Stu2630]

Boreas

I know you will ask for a male doc

The urologist I am due to see on Monday is a male doctor - I know that because he has a 'Mr' title rather than a 'Dr' title which, in the UK, indicates that he is actually a surgeon of registrar or consultant status. My concern would be about there being female staff present during any procedure and I would find that hard to accept.

Doctors know these procedures are embarassing and intrusive and try to make the experience as comfortable as possible....under the circumstances.

My local hospital has a very bad name indeed. My own mother has been in there for the past week after a fall and I have been visiting her most evenings. The place stinks and many of the staff are obnoxious. Fortunately, she comes out this afternoon.

Having said that, I have heard that the Urology Outpatients Clinic is a new, modern wing and the staff are supposed to be exceptionally pleasant and accommodating. My dad goes in there at times for examinations and treatment for prostate cancer and he says it is by far the nicest part of the hospital. I will keep an open mind, but I still don't fancy being messed around with in the trouser department, as I'm sure you will understand.

Smiley

I"ve been battling bladder cancer for the last 6 years

Wow! That puts my situation into perspective, doesn't it? I have to say I am filled with admiration for your courageous and positive attitude!! Obviously I am hoping my urologist doesn't suggest that I may have such a frightening condition because i doubt I would ope with the disease and the undignified and painful treatments as you appear to be doing.

I wish you the very best of luck and sincerely hope you have beaten this illness.

Stu

[Boreas]

Crap! :mad: I just hit the wrong buttons and deleted the post I was writing. Let me see if I can remember what I wrote.

Stu, I think you can safely assume there will be female staff involved with the procedure. If your hospital is anything like ours, there are few male nurses, and they are likely in different parts of the hospital. Speak to your doctor and let him know that you are uncomfortable. Get yourself mentally prepared for it and it will be better. We can always make things worse for ourselves by catastrophising in our heads beforehand.....especially when anxiety is involved.

I totally understand the obnoxious staff thing. Our town has an ob/gyn who is known for arrogance and a dismissive attitude towards women. I do adoption home studies, and therefore, I get to hear how he has treated women with fertility issues. I have also heard stories from other women. If I ever need his services, I will be asking to be referred to another doc. I have no interest in being seen by an obnoxious male doctor who is dismissive of women! I have also had a very dissatisfactory interaction with a new doc in town. My doctor left town, and this man replaced him. Now, I really liked my other doc. He even put a steroid injection in the joint at the base of my big toe, and it didn't hurt.....major brownie points for that one! Anyway, I went to this new doctor, and he gave me a muscle relaxant and told me it was an anti-inflammatory. Of course the pharmacist thought that was strange. I called the doctor back, and he insisted it was an anti-inflammatory. I tried it for a couple of days, and stewed about it, and decided to go to the walk-in clinic. I saw a different doctor, and she prescribed an anti-inflammatory. I really liked her, and she is accepting new patients, so I will be seeing her. I have never had a female doc before and I think I will like her. While some of that is because we speak the same "language" (female) it is also because she is not patronizing.

The bottom line is that we need to be as comfortable as possible, especially for invasive procedures. I have never heard of the procedure you are asking about, but I can imagine it is very invasive. It is important that you do your homework as you are doing, and maintain as much dignity as possible under the circumstances!

Edit: I just looked up cystoscopy. Yep, it sure is invasive! At the same time, it looks like it can tell a lot and help make sure you are okay. Good luck.

[walter05]

Boreas

My dad goes in there at times for examinations and treatment for prostate cancer ...

Stu

Stu;

First of all, Orthodox Jewish men and Moslem men often ask for male staff and hospitals will accommodate. If you call your doctor in advance and have that conversation about your fears and why, he may be able to lessen the likelihood of females being present.

However, if an Orthodox Jewish man needed the test, because of a risk of life, and a female has to be present, he would undergo the procedure. So should you.

Your post says that your father is fighting prostate cancer. This means that the likelihood of a problem for you is higher. You can't put this off.

On your next visit, please ask your doctor to perform the Digital Rectal Examination at that visit. He can do this with no one else in the room if you want. Please ask him to check to see if there is any sign of problems with your prostate that he can palpitate.

Then please agree to all of the tests they recommend.

Putting this off will put your life in danger. Do it for yourself. If not, for your wife and daughter. It would hard for them to live with the idea that you don't love them enough to face your embarrassment to save your life for them if not for yourself.

Walter

[David77]

A simple cystoscope proceedure is done with only the doctor in the room. There is no need for more than one person for this simple proceedure of looking through the uretha with this scope. I find no, or very little, pain in this proceedure.

[Pete Knight]

A simple cystoscope proceedure is done with only the doctor in the room. There is no need for more than one person for this simple proceedure of looking through the uretha with this scope. I find no, or very little, pain in this proceedure.
Not so in the UK, a second person has to be present for intimate examinations for legal reasons, in order to protect the Dr against allegations, and to protect the patient against unscrupulous Dr's.

Sadly both instances are not unknown in the UK.

Pete Knight

[Boreas]

Not so in the UK, a second person has to be present for intimate examinations for legal reasons, in order to protect the Dr against allegations, and to protect the patient against unscrupulous Dr's.

Sadly both instances are not unknown in the UK.

Pete Knight

In Canada, most doctors would have a chaperone for such a procedure, at least for a female patient/male doctor scenario. I believe a male patient could ask for the same.

If this is the case, then it would seem that it would be very easy for Stu to ask for a male chaperone for the procedure.

[Sanslines]

A simple cystoscope proceedure is done with only the doctor in the room. There is no need for more than one person for this simple proceedure of looking through the uretha with this scope. I find no, or very little, pain in this proceedure.

True and given the minimal preparation necessary for the procedure, the doctor can also perform the preparation based upon the specific needs of a patient who might be traumatized by additional medical personnel (male or female).

[Pete Knight]

In Canada, most doctors would have a chaperone for such a procedure, at least for a female patient/male doctor scenario. I believe a male patient could ask for the same.

If this is the case, then it would seem that it would be very easy for Stu to ask for a male chaperone for the procedure.

When I went to see a consultant I had a nurse in attendance, but she didn't stand there watching, she was just in the room, so even if a female was present a simple modesty curtain would save Stu's blushes.

And let me tell you, that Dr did things to me that even my wife never did in all the years of our marriage, he was very thorough, and the actual vasectomy wasn't a picnic either.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Never having had such a procedure before, I don't know what to expect. I do know that female staff catheterize male patients over here because my daughter has done it countless times. In other words, they are pretty cavalier over here about patient dignity and female nurses are present for all procedures, regardless of the sex of the patient. I woulfd find that hard to deal with.

Having researched the matter, I now know that a cystoscopy is done simply to find out what's going on in the urethra and bladder and to try to see:



if there are any sites where the bleeding may be coming from,
if there are any bladder stones,
if there are any constrictions, and
if there are any lesions

In the vast majority of cases where the pain has subsided and the blood in the urine has stopped or significantly diminished, there is little or nothing to see and the patient is perfectly fine. So the only thing achieved by cystoscopy is "peace of mind" and, as I'm not worried to begin with, it would seem illogical to allow myself to be subjected to a whole bunch of unnecessary stress. That's my starting point and I would be asking the urologist to have my urine tested again. Unless he makes a case that there is a strong possibility of me having something more serious, e.g. as a result of my CT scan or by showing me that I am still bleeding into my bladder, then I will be declining that particular test, although I will be amenable to less invasive tests, like blook cytology or x-rays.

Walter

My dad is 84, and he has had prostate cancer for a number of years. His doctor told him that his PSA test was sky high, but that was to be expected and it didn't mean it had spread in his body. My dad has been invited to have a "prostate re-section" operation (called a TURP), but he has declined it because of the lengthy period of incapacity that would follow (he is sole carer for my mother, who is quadreplegic). I has a PSA test about 2-years ago and, oddly, it was virtually zero!! This, I guess, has something to do with by birth condition (I have a very small prostate to begin with) and the fact that I produce low levels of testosterone and high levels of oestrogen, so a tumour wouldn't be able to "feed" off my hormones as it would with most other men. I will discuss this aspect with the urologist, but again, unless he expresses serious concern about my prostatic health, I will be declining a DRE.

But again, thank you for your interest and concern. I'll let you know how I get on after Monday's consultation.

Stu

[Stu2630]

Update


I got home from hospital about an hour and a half ago. I am still no wiser as to what is causing blood in my urine. First, I gave urine sample to the nurse. Then I met the urologist, who reviewed my ultrasound and CT scan and said there were no kidney or bladder stones, but that I had almost certainly had one and passed it. He then said he intended to put a camera into my bladder to see if there is anything else going on (the cystoscopy). I declined that treatment and he said that, if I preferred, I could have it while under a general anaesthetic. I said I didn't want any such invasive treatment but would happily comply with any other tests. At that point he closed my file and said that the cystoscopy was the "only test on offer", and that there was no point in testing my urine sample because, even if I was passing pure blood, he wouldn't do anything without the cystoscopy. So I left.

We have a government controlled medical service here and the doctors who work within it treat patients as though they are doing them an enormous favour by being there. They have a take-it-or-leave-it attitude and patients are treated like cattle.

So, at the moment, I am no longer receiving any medical care for haematuria and all I can hope is that it has passed or will pass in due course and there is no serious underlying cause. Fortunately, from my research, I know that the odds are very much in my favour in that respect.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Update






I got home from hospital about an hour and a half ago. I am still no wiser as to what is causing blood in my urine. First, I gave urine sample to the nurse. Then I met the urologist, who reviewed my ultrasound and CT scan and said there were no kidney or bladder stones, but that I had almost certainly had one and passed it. He then said he intended to put a camera into my bladder to see if there is anything else going on (the cystoscopy). I declined that treatment and he said that, if I preferred, I could have it while under a general anaesthetic. I said I didn't want any such invasive treatment but would happily comply with any other tests. At that point he closed my file and said that the cystoscopy was the "only test on offer", and that there was no point in testing my urine sample because, even if I was passing pure blood, he wouldn't do anything without the cystoscopy. So I left.

We have a government controlled medical service here and the doctors who work within it treat patients as though they are doing them an enormous favour by being there. They have a take-it-or-leave-it attitude and patients are treated like cattle.

So, at the moment, I am no longer receiving any medical care for haematuria and all I can hope is that it has passed or will pass in due course and there is no serious underlying cause. Fortunately, from my research, I know that the odds are very much in my favour in that respect.

Stu

Stu,

So you would rather play the odds with your health then listen to your doctor? You would rather allow your out of control phobia to rule and ruin your life and to prevent you from a necessary procedure then to work with your doctor and start down a path to wellness and recovery? You would prefer to risk your life then allow a minimally invasive procedure to be carried out?

Your medical condition has absolutely nothing to do with nudity and everything to do with taking care of your health. I really hope that those in your life, including your daughter, view this as a wake up call, and do whatever is necessary to get you into counseling sessions immediately. They are the only ones who have any chance to reach you. No one in this forum has a chance in hell to do that!

You are behaving just like an alcoholic who would rather die for his or her love of booze then break the viscious cycle and start down a path to recovery.

There really is nothing to debate or justify on your part. You are being totally selfish, stubborn, and in a total state of denial if you believe that this phobia of yours does not have complete and total control over you.

I just do not know what, if anything, can be done to wake you up to the fact that you have given in to a phobia that is ruling your life!

I feel very sorry for your family right now and especially for your young daughter as she may yet lose her father to his own selfishness and refusal to take the first minute step to recovery. What a tragedy!

I had a cystoscopy a couple of years ago for an irritated bladder due to pressures exerted from weightlifting. I not only underwent this proceedure for myself, but for others for whom I am responsble for.

[Pete Knight]

Stu,

There really is nothing to debate or justify on your part. You are being totally selfish, stubborn, and in a total state of denial if you believe that this phobia of yours does not have complete and total control over you.


The first step in curing alcoholism is admitting that a problem exists, and we all know Stu refuses to accept that he has a problem, he would rather blame nudists for wanting to be naked anywhere he may want to go, rather than admit he has a problem.

Just like an alcoholic his problem may the cause of his demise, as opposed to the problem he won't allow the doctor to diagnose and cure.

Hopefully his wife and children can provide the wake up call, before it's too late, and I understand that kidney stones can cause a rather painful death if left untreated.

As much as find Stu to be a pain in the arse, I would hate for him to suffer a long and painful death, and more so for his family watching him die and dealing with the aftermath. Having recently lost my father, and currently dealing with his estate, I wouldn't want Stu's children to go through what I'm going through.

Wake up Stu.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

You don't really think they are offering the cystoscopy for my sake, do you? They couldn't care less about me: all they are doing is going through the motions. It's "policy" that anyone with blood in their urine has a cystoscopy, even though the chances of finding anything dangerous is less than 4%. Some patients who undergo cystoscopy have problems afterwards, including serious infections, incontinence and torn bladders.

The decision is not as black-and-white as you seem to be painting it and it all comes down to personal judgment. It's not just about the nudity aspect either. Remember that I was offered a general anaesthetic and turned that down, too.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust the urologist I met to cut my toenails, let alone have him mess about with my private parts. I intend to discuss this with my daughter as soon as possible and see if there is any way I can have some further tests short of cystoscopy so that I can make an informed decision as to what to do next (like urine cytology or intravenous contrast medium x-ray). Remember that by far the most likely cause of my haematuria was the kidney stone, which has now passed.

Stu

[Pete Knight]

Sanslines

You don't really hink they are offering the cystoscopy for my sake, do you? They couldn't care less about me: all they are doing is going through the motions. It's "policy" that anyone with blood in their urine has a cystoscopy, even though the chances of finding anything dangerous is less than 4%. Some patients who undergo cystoscopy have problems afterwards, including serious infections, incontinence and torn bladders.

The decision is not as black-and-white as you seem to be painting it and it all comes down to personal judgment. It's not just about the nudity aspect either. Remember that I was offered a general anaesthetic and turned that down, too.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust the urologist I met to cut my toenails, let alone have him mess about with my private parts. I intend to discuss this with my daughter as soon as possible and see if there is any way I can have some further tests short of cystoscopy so that I can make an informed decision as to what to do nextlike urine cytology or intravenous contrast medium x-ray). Remember that by far the most likely cause of my haematuria was the kidney stone, which has now passed.

Stu

S'funny that, all I can see in the above post is denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, denial.

Pete Knight

[Sanslines]

Sanslines

You don't really think they are offering the cystoscopy for my sake, do you? They couldn't care less about me: all they are doing is going through the motions. It's "policy" that anyone with blood in their urine has a cystoscopy, even though the chances of finding anything dangerous is less than 4%. Some patients who undergo cystoscopy have problems afterwards, including serious infections, incontinence and torn bladders.

The decision is not as black-and-white as you seem to be painting it and it all comes down to personal judgment. It's not just about the nudity aspect either. Remember that I was offered a general anaesthetic and turned that down, too.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust the urologist I met to cut my toenails, let alone have him mess about with my private parts. I intend to discuss this with my daughter as soon as possible and see if there is any way I can have some further tests short of cystoscopy so that I can make an informed decision as to what to do next (like urine cytology or intravenous contrast medium x-ray). Remember that by far the most likely cause of my haematuria was the kidney stone, which has now passed.

Stu

WAKE UP STU!!

Remember I have had a cystoscopy and know exactly what it involves. I could have declined to have the procedure and resorted to taking my chances with hit or miss medications. I also had an ultrasound.. BOTH procedures were necessary to conclude that nothing serious was wrong. If my doctor did not have this vital information, he would have to guess and try different hit or miss solutions. Instead he obtained the facts and was able to make proper and educated decisions concerning the best cause of action to remedy the problem.

You continue to allow your phobia to run your life. You are now attempting to justify your decisions and presenting a whole bunch of excuses ie the doctors don't care , the doctors are no good, the doctors are this or that.......You are going out of your way to convince yourself against this minor procedure. It is a standard procedure that has been done millions of times. I survivied the procedure and so would you. You are convinced that they will find nothing and yet you can not seem to understand that finding nothing rules out a whole bunch of problems. Doctors do not have xray vision and can not seen inside of you. A cystoscopy is the best way to examine for specific problems.

Stop allowing your phobia to control your life. Stop it now!
Stu, you are getting older and as you age there will be need for more invasive procedures. That is guaranteed. Unless you find the inner strength, courage, and character to take the first step in standing up to your phobia, you will never be able to conquer your phobia. Life is full of challenges. Some people face very serious challeneges in life and it is those who develop innner strength to face those challenges and deal with them the best that they can who are heroes.

I know that your phobia is devistating and crippling to you. Rest assured that if you admit that this phobia is running your life and take the first (baby) step towards recovery, compassionate people will help you along the way.

Compassionate people will be willing to help Stu. Compassionate people know better then to pander to a phobia that is controlling Stu.

Please do the right thing and take that very first step!!!

Also remember one thing................there are tons of people who lack national health care coverage and due to financial constraints can not afford health care procedures such as cystoscopy. You don't have that problem. You also have access to health care that can help you to overcome your phobia. All that you need to do is to work with others and allow them to help you. So many others in this world should be so lucky!

[Sanslines]

Cystoscopy and Ureteroscopy

When you have a urinary problem, your doctor may use a cystoscope to see inside your bladder and urethra. The urethra is the tube that carries urine from the bladder to the outside of the body. The cystoscope has lenses like a telescope or microscope. These lenses let the doctor focus on the inner surfaces of the urinary tract. Some cystoscopes use optical fibers (flexible glass fibers) that carry an image from the tip of the instrument to a viewing piece at the other end. The cystoscope is as thin as a pencil and has a light at the tip. Many cystoscopes have extra tubes to guide other instruments for procedures to treat urinary problems.
Your doctor may recommend cystoscopy for any of the following conditions:

frequent urinary tract infections
blood in your urine (hematuria)

loss of bladder control (incontinence) or overactive bladder
unusual cells found in urine sample
need for a bladder catheter
painful urination, chronic pelvic pain, or interstitial cystitis
urinary blockage such as prostate enlargement, stricture, or narrowing of the urinary tract
stone in the urinary tract
unusual growth, polyp, tumor, or cancer
http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/cystoscopy/images/urinarytract.jpg

Male and female urinary tracts

If you have a stone lodged in your ureter or have an area that needs more study in your ureter, your doctor may recommend a ureteroscopy, usually with general or regional anesthesia. The ureter is the tube that carries urine from the kidney to the bladder. The ureteroscope is a special, very thin instrument used to look directly at and visualize the inside of the ureter. Some ureteroscopes are flexible like a small, very long straw.

Others are more rigid and firm. Through the ureteroscope, the doctor can see the stone. The doctor can then move the stone, either by removing it with a small basket at the end of a wire inserted through an extra tube in the ureteroscope or by extending a flexible fiber that carries a laser beam to break the stone into smaller pieces that can then pass out of the body in your urine. How and what the doctor will do is determined by the location, size, and composition of the stone. The doctor may leave a stent, a flexible tube that keeps the ureter open for drainage after the procedure.

Preparation

Ask your doctor about any special instructions. In most cases, you will be able to eat normally and return to normal activities after the test.
Since any medical procedure has a small risk of injury, you will need to sign a consent form before the test. Do not hesitate to ask your doctor about any concerns you might have.
http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/cystoscopy/images/cystoscopes.jpg
Rigid cystoscope and semirigid ureteroscope
You may be asked to give a urine sample before the test to check for infection. Avoid urinating for an hour before this part of the test.
You will wear a hospital gown for the examination, and the lower part of your body will be covered with a sterile drape. In most cases, you will lie on your back with your knees raised and apart. A nurse or technician will clean the area around your urethral opening and apply a local anesthetic.
If you are going to have a ureteroscopy, you may receive a spinal or general anesthetic. If you know this is the case, you will want to arrange a ride home after the test.

Test Procedures

The doctor will gently insert the tip of the cystoscope into your urethra and slowly glide it up into the bladder. Relaxing your pelvic muscles will help make this part of the test easier. A sterile liquid (water or saline) will flow through the cystoscope to slowly fill your bladder and stretch it so that the doctor has a better view of the bladder wall.
As your bladder reaches capacity, you will feel some discomfort and the urge to urinate. You will be able to empty your bladder as soon as the examination is over.

The time from insertion of the cystoscope to removal may be only a few minutes, or it may be longer if the doctor finds a stone and decides to remove it. Taking a biopsy (a small tissue sample for examination under a microscope) will also make the procedure last longer. In most cases, the entire examination, including preparation, will take about 15 to 20 minutes.

After the Test

You may have a mild burning feeling when you urinate, and you may see small amounts of blood in your urine. These problems should not last more than 24 hours. Tell your doctor if bleeding or pain is severe or if problems last more than a couple of days.

To relieve discomfort, drink two 8-ounce glasses of water each hour for 2 hours. Ask your doctor if you can take a warm bath to relieve the burning feeling. If not, you may be able to hold a warm, damp washcloth over the urethral opening.

Your doctor may give you an antibiotic to take for 1 or 2 days to prevent an infection. If you have signs of infection—including pain, chills, or fever—call your doctor.

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/cystoscopy/index.htm

[Sanslines]

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>pho·bi·a (fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifbhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif) n. 1. A persistent, abnormal, or irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid the feared stimulus.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SCRIPT>hm_med()</SCRIPT>
The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.

[Lord Drakkus]

Okay. I know I have a couple debates going with Stu right now, but that's because I'm new and haven't given up on him, partially. I also happen to like Stu, partly because of his contrary opinion.

So, Stu, just let me say this. If the doctor recommends that you have this procedure done before he can continue, you should listen. There are numerous reasons for it. The most obvious reason would be to find the stone, or the evidence of the stone, ie tearing of the Ureter, Urethra walls, etc. The less obvious reason is that your insurance company may require him to do so. I didn't read all of the thread so I don't know if that's been brought up yet, but the insurance world is incredibly convoluted and few people who are not "inside" understand how it works.


So, get the test done. The cystoscopy is required so the urologist can actually "see" inside your urinary tract. If I was you I would actually hope the urologist does find something with it. Because If he doesn't, and the Ultrasound shows nothing, then that does not mean that you're totally healthy. That means that you have a far more serious problem that would require much more testing to find out! Declining on any one procedure usually requires the doctor to make guesses, or have 2+ procedures done to compensate.

You, in fact, are being quite selfish in declining to have this test done. Either you have a serious problem, or you don't. But the only person who can tell you that is your urologist. By just blowing it off and saying, "It's most likely just a stone," and neglecting the tests, you don't know what you have. You may, however unlikely, be in a life or death situation here. By choosing not to have the proper procedures done, you may very well be choosing death, without even knowing it.

If this seems a little alarmist, it's intended to be. Your health isn't something to be taken lightly.

[Pete Knight]

The less obvious reason is that your insurance company may require him to do so. I didn't read all of the thread so I don't know if that's been brought up yet, but the insurance world is incredibly convoluted and few people who are not "inside" understand how it works.

There is no issue with insurance in Stu's case, we have a comprehensive National Health Service, there may be issues of complacency on the part of some of the practitioners, but it is a service freely available to all.

We have some of the finest medical practitioners in the world, unfortunately we have a few who are a total waste of the space they occupy, but don't for a minute think that they are the norm, the positives outnumber the negatives by far.

I would rather have guaranteed health care than have to rely on insurance cover.

Pete Knight

[Sanslines]

There is no issue with insurance in Stu's case, we have a comprehensive National Health Service, there may be issues of complacency on the part of some of the practitioners, but it is a service freely available to all.

We have some of the finest medical practitioners in the world, unfortunately we have a few who are a total waste of the space they occupy, but don't for a minute think that they are the norm, the positives outnumber the negatives by far.

I would rather have guaranteed health care than have to rely on insurance cover.

Pete Knight

Some people in the UK can afford private health care and can bypass the National Health. Others have private health insurance. Many people in this world can only dream of those options.

Neglecting to have a minor invasive procedure done by a male doctor in the privacy of a doctor's surgery with only the male doctor in attendance may result in future complications that will involve having surgery performed in hospital theatre with a team of both male and female medical professionals.

Furthermore, being so stubborn as to ignore a medical problem can result in premature and unecessary death and anger on the parts of the surviving family members. Those members might seek revenge and demand that Stu have a nude funeral as the ultimate revenge!

[walter05]

I think you have three problems.

1) You don't turst your doctor which can be corrected by getting a different doctor.

2) You don't really love your wife and daughter because if you did, you would do all you can to stay alive with them.

3) You care more about your modesty than your life. I have no correction for this.

Get a different doctor that might be better. Maybe your doctor can suggest one. If this doctor also says you need the cystoscope, then please drop your pants and let him do what he needs to do to save your life.

If, not please contact a morturary. At least start pre-paying for your too soon funeral so your wife and daughter will not have that burden.

[Stu2630]

Good news!

My eldest daughter has done a bit of research and found out that a Harley Street urologist is now offering a relatively new type of (non-invasive) "virtual cystoscopy" which uses an intravenous contrast medium with MRI rather than having to enter the bladder with a camera. While this is more usually carried out as a follow-up, the clinic concerned is prepared to provide it to people like me. It's not cheap, but it is almost as reliable as traditional cystoscopy.

I shall be phoning London this morning and booking myself in for one. My wife is delighted - and I confess I am pleased because I will be able to confirm that there is nothing sinister going on inside me.

Don't you just love a happy ending? :D

Stu

[Lord Drakkus]

Ah Stu. Your "idiosyncrasies" simply amaze me at times. Congratulations on finding somebody that will do the virtual cystoscopy though! I hope they find something harmless while looking, and that you'll stay here to give us your, sometimes bizarre, insights into clothes-compulsiveness.

[Sanslines]

Good news!

My eldest daughter has done a bit of research and found out that a Harley Street urologist is now offering a relatively new type of (non-invasive) "virtual cystoscopy" which uses an intravenous contrast medium with MRI rather than having to enter the bladder with a camera. While this is more usually carried out as a follow-up, the clinic concerned is prepared to provide it to people like me. It's not cheap, but it is almost as reliable as traditional cystoscopy.

I shall be phoning London this morning and booking myself in for one. My wife is delighted - and I confess I am pleased because I will be able to confirm that there is nothing sinister going on inside me.

Don't you just love a happy ending? :D

Stu

Stu,

It's not a happy ending at all. It actually is a very sad ending. You are allowing a phobia to continue to control your life. You had several doctors who informed you that you needed a traditional cystoscopy. Numerous concessions and adjustments could have been made to meet you half way. If your last doctor is 'no good', then you could have continued to find alternate doctors until you found a 'good' doctor. If the national health is no good, then you could have gone to a private clinic. If the entire medical establishment in the UK is no good, then you could have gone to Europe or anywhere in the world for that matter. You could also have made a reasonable request to have no women personel present while you undergo this medical procedure.

Now you are willing to travel to London (over 200 miles away) to meet with a doctor who might also be 'no good'. Now, all of a sudden, you don't seem bothered as to whether the doctor in London is 'good' or 'bad'. You are willing to do this only because they will pander to your phobia and will perform a non traditional cystoscopy.

In life, there are certain invasive procedures that need to be carried out. For instance, once a person reaches 50, it is highly recommended that a person gets a colonoscopy to check for colon cancer, polyps, and other assorted problems. The sad reality is that colon cancer kills many people each year. A colonoscopy procedure is vital in order to early detect and treat any problems and give a person a fighting chance to survive. No one likes medical procedures of any kind, whether they be invasive or not. The alternatives (ie sickness and early death) are much worse options.

In your situation, instead of admiting and working to overcome your phobia, you continue to allow it to control your life. Eventually your phobia wil prevent you from doing something that is absolutely necessary and then your phobia will have cost you your life.

As I stated before, many compassionate people will be willing to help you each step of the way in terms of facing and conquering your phobia. However, you have to be willing to meet them half way. As it stands now, your phobia has such a firm grasp on you that no one can help or reach you. Your phobia distorts your thinking and allows you to believe that everyone will be happy that you will have this virtial cystoscopy. Yet, people understand the real reasons why you are having this procedure and it is clearly to pander to your phobia. It is a tragedy.

There is NO happy ending here. There is only a VERY sad ending of how a phobia continues to control and dictate actions to an individual just the same as alcohol controls and dictates to the alcoholic. This is a very sad tragedy indeed!!!!! I am saddened by the outcome!

[Stu2630]

Lord Drakkus

Congratulations on finding somebody that will do the virtual cystoscopy though! I hope they find something harmless while looking, and that you'll stay here to give us your, sometimes bizarre, insights into clothes-compulsiveness.Thanks for your kind words. I don't expect they'll find anything as there is, on average, less than a 4% chance that something is up. If they do, then I'll have to give it some thought.

Sanslines

I'm going to see a Harley Street specialist next week - the doctors who work there are the creme-de-la-creme of British doctors, so I'll be guided by what the urologist there tells me. I have already confirmed that he'll do a virtual cysto if I prefer, so that will save me the embarrassment (and risk) attached to having a real one. If he does find something unusual (which the odds are that he won't!) then, according to my daughter, I would have no option but to have a real "rigid" cysto so that they could take a biopsy and so I'd have to deal with that, or take a risk and decline it. At the moment, that's not on the cards.

I'm sorry you can't share my pleasure in the good news I have had that I can have the necessary checks without the angst of cystoscopy. You appear to actually want me to undergo the ghastly experience of a cysto as though the miserable experience of it would somehow purge me of my "phobia". Of course it would not do that but would, instead, realise my nightmare. It would confirm the association between exposing my private parts to strangers and physical and emotional discomfort. If I wanted to get comfortable around nudity, I should surely do it in a pleasant, recreational situation. In this case, I would have hoped you would say something like, "good for you, Stu, but remember that you may not be able to avoid these kinds of procedures for ever."

You say that "once a person reaches 50, it is highly recommended that a person gets a colonoscopy to check for colon cancer, polyps, and other assorted problems." I'm afraid that doesn't happen here in the UK even if you want it to happen. At the moment, there is no screening at all for colon cancer etc. Colonoscopies etc are not routinely performed - they are ONLY offered to patients who present with specific symptoms. The vast majority of people over 50 have never had this procedure and never will. With any luck, I will never need it either.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Lord Drakkus

Thanks for your kind words. I don't expect they'll find anything as there is, on average, less than a 4% chance that something is up. If they do, then I'll have to give it some thought.

Sanslines

I'm going to see a Harley Street specialist next week - the doctors who work there are the creme-de-la-creme of British doctors, so I'll be guided by what the urologist there tells me. I have already confirmed that he'll do a virtual cysto if I prefer, so that will save me the embarrassment (and risk) attached to having a real one. If he does find something unusual (which the odds are that he won't!) then, according to my daughter, I would have no option but to have a real "rigid" cysto so that they could take a biopsy and so I'd have to deal with that, or take a risk and decline it. At the moment, that's not on the cards.

I'm sorry you can't share my pleasure in the good news I have had that I can have the necessary checks without the angst of cystoscopy. You appear to actually want me to undergo the ghastly experience of a cysto as though the miserable experience of it would somehow purge me of my "phobia". Of course it would not do that but would, instead, realise my nightmare. It would confirm the association between exposing my private parts to strangers and physical and emotional discomfort. If I wanted to get comfortable around nudity, I should surely do it in a pleasant, recreational situation. In this case, I would have hoped you would say something like, "good for you, Stu, but remember that you may not be able to avoid these kinds of procedures for ever."

You say that "once a person reaches 50, it is highly recommended that a person gets a colonoscopy to check for colon cancer, polyps, and other assorted problems." I'm afraid that doesn't happen here in the UK even if you want it to happen. At the moment, there is no screening at all for colon cancer etc. Colonoscopies etc are not routinely performed - they are ONLY offered to patients who present with specific symptoms. The vast majority of people over 50 have never had this procedure and never will. With any luck, I will never need it either.

Stu

Stu,

You have convinced yourself that a traditional cystoscopy is some kind of torture that is to be avoided at all costs. I have had the procedure and can tell you that it is not so bad at all. The benefits of having such a procedure outweight any minor discomforts. It is not a 'ghastly' experience, an 'angst', or any other horror stories that you wish to present. For rational people, it is a minor invasive procedure that is necessary to obtain critical information. There are no viable alternatives that can obtain the first hand information that a traditional cystoscopy can and does.

I have never said that having this procedure will 'cure you' of your phobia concerning nudity. What will 'cure' you will be to take a basic first step and admit that you have a serious phobia that is ruling and ruining your life. One you admit this basic fact to yourself, you will then open yourself to the possibility of seeking help to control and eventually overcome this serious phobia. This has absolutely nothing to do with 'getting comfortable with nudity'. Many people who will never be comfortable with nudity understand that medical reasons and requrements for partial 'nudity' have nothing to do with nudity per sey. Doctors have seen it all including amputations and all kinds of human disfigurations. Why on earth do you believe that your disfigurations are unique? Such an irrational belief again demonstrates how firmly your phobia controls you.

The only thing that you have demonstrated in this thread is the extent of your phobia and that is nothing to rejoice about. I certainly would be happy for you under any normal circumstances. I also know up front that you will never undertake any invasive procedure that involves any exposure of 'private' parts and are willing to sacrifice your life. This is not healthy or normal and is a clear demonstration of your phobia at work. This is exactly like an alcoholic who is unable to think rationally and has allowed alcohol to rule and ruin his or her life. In so many sad cases, the alcoholic is unable to break the bond of alcoholism and dies. This is nothing to rejoice about!

Furthermore, I honestly believe now that this forum is something that is very toxic and unhealthy to you in that it enables and reinforces your phobia. It saddens me tremedously when someone utilizes a forum such as this for such self destructive purposes.

[MoonShadow]

Stu,
Furthermore, I honestly believe now that this forum is something that is very toxic and unhealthy to you in that it enables and reinforces your phobia. It saddens me tremedously when someone utilizes a forum such as this for such self destructive purposes.

After reading this thread and knowing the history of Stu's postings over the last few years, I am in agreement with you, Sanslines. For sometime I could not understand a non-nudist and an anti-nudist individual spending exorbinate amount of hours on a nudist forum. His rhetoric has the same pattern which he repeats over and over, like a chant, a litany, if you will. This forum feeds his phobia. He comes here to feed his phobia with his anti-ness which reinforces his fear of, dread of, shame of nakedness in any form (those of us who have been here a while have seen over and over.) This forum is his intoxicant -- his elixir.

It is sad that Stu has the phobia he has and even sadder is he makes no attempt to acknowledge it, own up to it and do something positive for himself, his family, and others he loves and cares about by seeking counseling. It is Shakespearian, a real tragedy.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

You say that cystoscopy is not "ghastly" - well, it perhaps wouldn't be ghastly for you, but I'm not you. I can guarantee it would be an absolutely dreadful experience for me. Remember that I never let ANYONE see my private parts - not even my missus - so the thought of strangers not just seeng me, but messing about with me, would be traumatic. I would feel as though I were being violated.

I have been assured that virtual cystoscopy is "virtually as good as" the real thing. The only difference is that I have to pay, and travel, to get it. IF they find something untoward, and that's highly unlikely, then I will be offered conventional cystoscopy because the virtual kind has limitations. And if that happens, and the urologist convinced me that I am in a life-or-death situation, then I may have to re-think my feelings and do what is recommended. So what's the problem?

When I phoned the clinic, I spoke to a very nice lady called Sarah. She told me that they are constantly having people of both sexes calling because they prefer virtual rather than invasive cystoscopy, so I'm not allthat unusual. The fact is that many patients aren't aware of this option and/or wouldn't be able to afford it. But I am aware and I can afford it, so why shouldn't I have it? I have no doubt that, in time, this will become the standard way of examining people rather than shoving instruments into parts of their anatomy that were not designed to accept them. Also, unlike the real thing, virtual cystoscopy has the advantage of being risk-free!!!! No danger of infection, or causing damage to the urethra or bladder wall when the only thing entering your body is waves of magnetism.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am picking up that you are disappointed that I've found a way to avoid this suffering and I would be sad if that were the case. I have managed to get through life perfectly well as I am and I don't want to have to change. With any luck, there will never be any reason to.

Stu

[walter05]

Sanslines

You say that cystoscopy is not "ghastly" - well, it perhaps wouldn't be ghastly for you, but I'm not you. I can guarantee it would be an absolutely dreadful experience for me. Remember that I never let ANYONE see my private parts - not even my missus - so the thought of strangers not just seeng me, but messing about with me, would be traumatic. I would feel as though I were being violated.
Stu

That quote from Stu is so illogical. I know we all want him to save his life. However if he is too crazy to do so, we should not be so crazy to think he will change.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines

You say that cystoscopy is not "ghastly" - well, it perhaps wouldn't be ghastly for you, but I'm not you. I can guarantee it would be an absolutely dreadful experience for me. Remember that I never let ANYONE see my private parts - not even my missus - so the thought of strangers not just seeng me, but messing about with me, would be traumatic. I would feel as though I were being violated.

I have been assured that virtual cystoscopy is "virtually as good as" the real thing. The only difference is that I have to pay, and travel, to get it. IF they find something untoward, and that's highly unlikely, then I will be offered conventional cystoscopy because the virtual kind has limitations. And if that happens, and the urologist convinced me that I am in a life-or-death situation, then I may have to re-think my feelings and do what is recommended. So what's the problem?

When I phoned the clinic, I spoke to a very nice lady called Sarah. She told me that they are constantly having people of both sexes calling because they prefer virtual rather than invasive cystoscopy, so I'm not allthat unusual. The fact is that many patients aren't aware of this option and/or wouldn't be able to afford it. But I am aware and I can afford it, so why shouldn't I have it? I have no doubt that, in time, this will become the standard way of examining people rather than shoving instruments into parts of their anatomy that were not designed to accept them. Also, unlike the real thing, virtual cystoscopy has the advantage of being risk-free!!!! No danger of infection, or causing damage to the urethra or bladder wall when the only thing entering your body is waves of magnetism.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am picking up that you are disappointed that I've found a way to avoid this suffering and I would be sad if that were the case. I have managed to get through life perfectly well as I am and I don't want to have to change. With any luck, there will never be any reason to.

Stu


Stu,

I know more then you think. I know that most people do not want any invasive procedure but will put up with the inconvenience in order to allow doctors to gather necessary information and facts to base a diagnosis upon. Medical doctors make decisions based upon facts. They need as much information, data, etc in order to make the best diagnosis that they possibly can. What I have just described is a rational approach to medicine.

I know also know very well that you are not 'most' people. I know that you have a very serious problem that is destroying your life. I can understand some of the extreme traumas that you have gone through as a child and it is very clear that those traumas have left very deep and painful scars. These scars have led to a seroius phobia that is clearly in control of your life.

I see the wheels turning in your brain and you are grasping at each and every justification to avoid a traditional cystoscopy. You are making one irrational justification after another and I believe that you are unable to be reasoned with. Your phobia is preventing rational discussion. I am certain that your doctor yesterday almost immediately realised this and hence why he closed your folder. He knew that no matter what he said you would automatically reject it as you had already made up your mind that you will not have this procedure. I also konw up front that no matter what the outcome of this virtual cystoscopy, you have already convinced youself of the results. You also know that regardless of the real outcome of this virtual cystoscopy, you will NEVER agree to a traditional cystoscopy and would rather die then undergo any procedure which exposes your privates. This is a screaming red flag of a serious phobia that is completely out of control!!

Remember I have had this procedure and my information is first hand. First of all no trained urologist is going to 'shove' anything up you. The flexible wand that is carefully inserted is sterilized and warm, sterile saline (salt water) solution is used to inflate the bladder so that the doctor can examine the insides of your bladder. The whole procedure takes 5 or so minutes. The worst part of the procedure is the feeling that you need to urinate as your bladder is filled with saline solution. There is no torture involved.

What you describe are horror stories from some botched job in a third world country. You are not going to have this procedure in a third world country. You are going to have it with a competent urologist in his surgery.

This whole issue revolves around you avoiding having to show your privates to anyone. That's it in nutshell. You are now actively convincing youself of illusions. These illusions include that this clinic has the 'best doctors in the UK, that this procedure is vastly better then a traditional cystoscopy, that traditional cystoscopy has a whole bunch of risks, etc, etc". You even mentioned that the doctor from yesterday agreed to anthestasize you as an accomodation to your phobia. You immediately rejected that compromise.

The bottom line again is that your phobia is so severe that you are not even willing to admit that you have this phobia and will then do anything about it. I guarantee that if you take the first step down the road to recovery, you will get rid of this phobia and regain control of your life. I also guarantee that there is nothing so horrible or terrible about you that justifies you to avoid proper medical care.

What is terrible is that you will allow this phobia to eventually kill you rather then face it for what it is and conquer it. You have the power to do so.

You want me to be happy for you and yet I, along with any other decent person, would never be happy for someone who has been taken over by an irrational phobia.

I know that you can not see this and the only ones who can perhaps reach you would be your family. God only knows why they can't.

I am honestly very saddened for you for I know exactly what your future involves unless you take the very first small step to overcoming this phobia and gaining control of your life.

BTW I am certain that you know that none of this discussion has anything to do with nudists or nudism. It has everything to do with a serious phobia.

[Sanslines]

That quote from Stu is so illogical. I know we all want him to save his life. However if he is too crazy to do so, we should not be so crazy to think he will change.

We are trying to be rational with someone who is not rational due to an out of control phobia. The only people that can reach Stu and wake him up are his familty members.

[Stu2630]

MoonShadow/Walter/Sanslines

PLEEEEZ PEOPLE!!! Why are we still even discussing this? It has been interesting to learn about the procedures from people here who have either had it, or who have supplied medical information about it, and I am truly grateful to all those who have contributed with constructive advice and goodwill. If I have a "phobia", then that's something that maybe I can deal with in a more pleasant way - and gradually rather than from a fear of having something terrible happen to me if I don't conquer it.

But the matter of my cystoscopy is now resolved. I am having an appropriate treatment; I am happy about it, as are my wife and family, so why can't everyone just be happy for me and leave it at that?

I will make this assurance: IF the doc tells me that something has been found in the virtual cystoscopy that needs further investigation, I'll seriously consider any recommendations made to further investigate the problem, including conventional cystoscopy (in a single-sex situation and under general anaesthetic). Fair enough?

Stu

[walter05]

My wife is a cancer survivor. My attitude is different from yours.

I want to take all steps to rule anything out. Saving life is more important than the trauma of being seen or touched naked.

The harder it is to see something, the more likely it will not be seen.

I think your fobia is putting your life in danger. Tumors can start out very small. If in a prostate, they are very difficult to detect.

You have detailed your unusual genitalia. Is it not possible you could now be having some unusual complications and symptoms?

You find your embarrassment more important than your life and your love for your wife and daughter. I find that sad.

Sanslines;

I know what you mean.

[Sanslines]

MoonShadow/Walter/Sanslines

PLEEEEZ PEOPLE!!! Why are we still even discussing this? It has been interesting to learn about the procedures from people here who have either had it, or who have supplied medical information about it, and I am truly grateful to all those who have contributed with constructive advice and goodwill. If I have a "phobia", then that's something that maybe I can deal with in a more pleasant way - and gradually rather than from a fear of having something terrible happen to me if I don't conquer it.

But the matter of my cystoscopy is now resolved. I am having an appropriate treatment; I am happy about it, as are my wife and family, so why can't everyone just be happy for me and leave it at that?

I will make this assurance: IF the doc tells me that something has been found in the virtual cystoscopy that needs further investigation, I'll seriously consider any recommendations made to further investigate the problem, including conventional cystoscopy (in a single-sex situation and under general anaesthetic). Fair enough?

Stu

Stu,

In the end, you will do what you so chose. I am very concerned as to why your family does not interveen in your life. Certainly if family members love each other, then do not appease each other or tell them what they want to hear. Sometimes a family member needs to be told what they need to hear and given a good kick in their arse to wake them up.

I don't believe that you will ever stand up to your phobia and conquer it. I fully believe that if you were to do so, an enormous burden would be lifted from your shoulders and you would see life in an entirely different life. However, facing personal diffculties takes courage and character. I hope some day that you will find the courage and character within yourself to face this irrational phobia.

Your phobia has convinced you that what you are receiving an appropriate treatment when in fact it is an appeasement to your phobia. Once again the phobia wins out over Stu. How sad! yet, you want us all to be happy for you. There is absolutely nothing to be happy for when you find a way around facing your phobia. This procedure is clearly like alcohol to an alcoholic. It enables the person to avoid facing the real problem!

Based upon your 'serious consideration' langauge, I don't believe that you will ever agree to have a traditional cystoscopy (or any procedure that involves exposure of your privates). You would rather die then face and conquer your phobia.

I als believe that this forum is extremely toxic for you. It allows, enables, and justifies your phobia. People in this forum must now clearly understand that your views have nothing to do with traditional textile viewpoints and everything to do with a person whose thinking is altered and controlled by a phobia. This is extremely sad and I hope that people will be considerate enough to not encourage your phobia.

I truly am very sorry for you Stu. If you would only take the very first minute step to acknowledge that you have a very serious phobia that is destroying your life, then numerous people would step in and encourage you all along the way. Instead you chose to run away from the real life that you were meant to live and allow a phobia to live inside you just as a cancer lives within a person and fees upon the human body. How utterly tragic and sad!!!

[Stu2630]

Sanslines and Walter

We have discussed my "phobia" about nudity on many threads. I have even undertaken things recommended on here to make me more relaxed about the nudity of others, so I'm nowhere near as stubborn as you seem to think. Remember when, at the behest of BobS, I visited a clothing-optional beach in 2006? And now I even use the men's changing facility at my gym while other men are in the shower! These are things I could never have imagined doing a decade ago, but my liaison with people here encouraged me to challenge some of my feelings.

I had hoped that this one, which is in a section about health and fitness, would just be a way of discussing the pros and cons of cystoscopy and the risks involved. There has been some great information provided about this procedure on here and it has assisted me in making up my mind about whether to submit to it or not.

My dislike of being seen nude isn't some dreadful problem - I'm a perfectly jolly kind of person and it doesn't impinge on my life one bit. If it did, I would find a way to overcome it, but that's not necessary. I am genuinely happy as I am.

To reiterate - If, after the virtual cystoscopy, the Harley Street urologist tells me that something has been found that warrants further investigation, I'll seriously consider having conventional cystoscopy. Believe me, while I would hate it, I'd certainly prefer it to death! I'm just not prepared to put myself through it if I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary. And, according to the lady I spoke to on the phone today, a lot of people are doing exactly what I am doing in questioning the necessity of an unpleasant and demeaning procedure where there is an option for one which far more palateable. I'm sure they aren't accused of having a "phobia" that is destroying their lives.

I honestly thought that, once I had announced my intention to have the virtual cystoscopy, everyone here would be happy for me that I had found an acceptable compromise. :(

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines and Walter

"My dislike of being seen nude isn't some dreadful problem - I'm a perfectly jolly kind of person and it doesn't impinge on my life one bit. If it did, I would find a way to overcome it, but that's not necessary. I am genuinely happy as I am."

Constrast this with what you said earlier:

You say that cystoscopy is not "ghastly" - well, it perhaps wouldn't be ghastly for you, but I'm not you. I can guarantee it would be an absolutely dreadful experience for me. Remember that I never let ANYONE see my private parts - not even my missus - so the thought of strangers not just seeng me, but messing about with me, would be traumatic. I would feel as though I were being violated.


Stu,

You are clearly and stubbornly in a complete state of denial. You are contradicting youself. You have clearly admitted just how serious your phobia is and yet you can not see it. Your phobia is blinding you to understanding just how serious your problem is.


To reiterate - If, after the virtual cystoscopy, the Harley Street urologist tells me that something has been found that warrants further investigation, I'll seriously consider having conventional cystoscopy. Believe me, while I would hate it, I'd certainly prefer it to death! I'm just not prepared to put myself through it if I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary. And, according to the lady I spoke to on the phone today, a lot of people are doing exactly what I am doing in questioning the necessity of an unpleasant and demeaning procedure where there is an option for one which far more palateable. I'm sure they aren't accused of having a "phobia" that is destroying their lives.

More irrational justifications against having a standard procedure that several doctors have already told you that you need.

I honestly thought that, once I had announced my intention to have the virtual cystoscopy, everyone here would be happy for me that I had found an acceptable compromise. :(

Stu

You are compromising with your phobia and want everyone to be happy that you once again avoid having to face your phobia head on. What is there to be happy about? Someone who refuses to acknoweldge that he has a problem and will do anything about it? A family that appears to stand by and allow this phobia to continue unabated? Someone who finds a way around dealing with a very serious problem?

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

There is no contradiction. I am happy as I am and I would find a cystoscopy to be traumatic. But I don't have to have one at the moment because I have found an acceptable alternative. If it came to the crunch of having to experience the trauma of cystoscopy or the trauma of terminal cancer, then I'd opt for the cystoscopy. I wouldn't like it, in fact, I would hate every second of it and want to erase every part of the memory of it from my mind, but I'd do it.

More irrational justifications against having a standard procedure that several doctors have already told you that you need.

But I'm having an alternative investigation which is almost as good, so what's the problem?

You are compromising with your phobia and want everyone to be happy that you once again avoid having to face your phobia head on.

I don't want to confront my feelings in this regard and, at this time, I don't need to confront them. If I ever do, then maybe I will, but that's not where I am at right now.

A family that appears to stand by and allow this phobia to continue unabated? Someone who finds a way around dealing with a very serious problem?

There is no problem!! I am having a medical test that will confirm what I already believe, namely that I don't have a serious illness. I have a severe revulsion about exposing my private parts to other people but, at this time, I do not have any need to do this.

Stu

[Sanslines]

There is no problem!!

There isn't???

I don't want to confront my feelings in this regard and, at this time, I don't need to confront them. If I ever do, then maybe I will, but that's not where I am at right now.

You just admitted that there is a problem. You admitted that virtual cystoscopy allows you to avoid having to face a serious problem (your feelings as you describe them).

Are you even aware of what 'Harley Street' specialists charge?

Geez Stu, you will pay anything and do anything just to avoid confronting your phobia.


Overcoming denial and admitting to having a serious problem is the first step towards recovery!!

[richo]

There isn't???

You just admitted that there is a problem. You admitted that virtual cystoscopy allows you to avoid having to face a serious problem (your feelings as you describe them).


Overcoming denial and admitting to having a serious problem is the first step towards recovery!!

Sanslines,

It's an issue between Stu and any therapist he chooses to enlist. Technically, no one here has the right to make that decision for him. As long as he accepts the consequences of his actions (or non-actions), he has the right to not tackle the issue. Obviously, those consequences can impact other people, but it's still his choice. Unless his phobia causes him to place himself or others in immediate danger (and a "just in case" test does not qualify as "immediate danger"), no one has the right to override his decision (especially as he's found a theoretically acceptable path of mitigation in this instance).

As much as I agree with you that he'd be better off facing it, and sooner rather than later, neither of us has the right to make that call. One can bring up facts and figures as much as one wants, but he has the right to ignore them. "Leading horses to water" and all that.

[Lord Drakkus]

As much as I agree with you that he'd be better off facing it, and sooner rather than later, neither of us has the right to make that call. One can bring up facts and figures as much as one wants, but he has the right to ignore them. "Leading horses to water" and all that.

This is exactly why I stated what I did in my earlier post. I'm a bit disappointed that Stu went to such extreme lengths to get around this "phobia" of his, but I'm also somewhat pleased that he's found a similar prodedure that's "almost as good." Admittedly, it's not nearly as effective or accurate, but since it's not me, I have no say in the matter.

Also, to mention something else that was brought up in this most recent exchange between stu and sanslines over the past 24 hours or so...

Stu, you say that your phobia doesn't really affect you or your social life, and yet you state that you disallow your missus to see your penis. Assuming that your wife is still a sexual creature, and has not became asexual with age (whatever that may be), do you not believe that bothers her? My fiancee LOVES to see me in the nude! I'm definitely not the most attractive man in the world, but because of who I am to her, I have become, to use her words a "Greek God." To allow this phobia of yours to progress to that point, and then state open-faced that it's no big deal.... That shows me exactly how deep you've allowed it to go, and yet you're still in complete denial of it.

That's all I'm going to publicly state about the topic of Stu's phobia.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines,

It's an issue between Stu and any therapist he chooses to enlist. Technically, no one here has the right to make that decision for him. As long as he accepts the consequences of his actions (or non-actions), he has the right to not tackle the issue. Obviously, those consequences can impact other people, but it's still his choice. Unless his phobia causes him to place himself or others in immediate danger (and a "just in case" test does not qualify as "immediate danger"), no one has the right to override his decision (especially as he's found a theoretically acceptable path of mitigation in this instance).

As much as I agree with you that he'd be better off facing it, and sooner rather than later, neither of us has the right to make that call. One can bring up facts and figures as much as one wants, but he has the right to ignore them. "Leading horses to water" and all that.


Perhaps, but some of us in this forum have a long history with Stu and know Stu get very frustrated with his stubborness. No one in this forum can tell Stu what to do and it appears that Stu's immediated family can not tell him what to do either. Stu has a serious problem and uses this forum to enable, justify, and feed his phobia. That is not healthy and those of us who understand what Stu is doing get very frustrated and want Stu to free himself from his phobia. Stu continues to do otherwise and that is indeed his choice.

Stu is a tragedy just like an alcoholic who continues to choose booze over recovery is also a tragedy. Stu's compromise solution is akin to an alcoholic who compromises by chosing to drink beer over hard liquor.

[MoonShadow]

MoonShadow/Walter/Sanslines

PLEEEEZ PEOPLE!!! Why are we still even discussing this? It has been interesting to learn about the procedures from people here who have either had it, or who have supplied medical information about it, and I am truly grateful to all those who have contributed with constructive advice and goodwill. If I have a "phobia", then that's something that maybe I can deal with in a more pleasant way - and gradually rather than from a fear of having something terrible happen to me if I don't conquer it.

But the matter of my cystoscopy is now resolved. I am having an appropriate treatment; I am happy about it, as are my wife and family, so why can't everyone just be happy for me and leave it at that?

I will make this assurance: IF the doc tells me that something has been found in the virtual cystoscopy that needs further investigation, I'll seriously consider any recommendations made to further investigate the problem, including conventional cystoscopy (in a single-sex situation and under general anaesthetic). Fair enough?

Stu

Stu, people here are happy there is, for you, an alternative but they are expressing real concern about your phobia. These individuals know you from this forum and from many, many postings. I know it is something you don't want to hear or even talk about but it is only people expressing concern that you have a very deep, unhealthy, and if not resolved, a deadly phobia.

You have found an alternative for this go-round with your health; but, what about the next time? What happens, hopefully it will never happen, if you need open-heart surgery where you will be totally naked during the initial operation? What happens if you are rushed to an emergency room with chest or abdominal injuries where your clothes will be removed by scissors so that those attending you have no obstructions?

Overcoming your phobia is a way you will significantly change your perspective about your body and nudity and to offer you a better overall state of well being. At least a healthier one.

[richo]

Perhaps, but some of us in this forum have a long history with Stu and know Stu get very frustrated with his stubborness. No one in this forum can tell Stu what to do and it appears that Stu's immediated family can not tell him what to do either. Stu has a serious problem and uses this forum to enable, justify, and feed his phobia. That is not healthy and those of us who understand what Stu is doing get very frustrated and want Stu to free himself from his phobia. Stu continues to do otherwise and that is indeed his choice.

Stu is a tragedy just like an alcoholic who continues to choose booze over recovery is also a tragedy. Stu's compromise solution is akin to an alcoholic who compromises by chosing to drink beer over hard liquor.

No doubt, and even as a newcomer here, I've caught a fair bit of the dialogue :)

That being said - it's the right of an alcoholic to drink himself into the grave, just so long as such a person doesn't then expect society to "save" him if he decides he doesn't like the consequences.

It's tragic, but many things are. That doesn't mean one should stop trying to prevent tragedy, but merely that it is, sometimes, outside the realm of what one can affect.

[Pete Knight]

That being said - it's the right of an alcoholic to drink himself into the grave, just so long as such a person doesn't then expect society to "save" him if he decides he doesn't like the consequences.

Yes of course people with an obsessive compulsive disorder can kill themselves if they want, but it's the people left behind who have to live with the grief and clear up after them, so do these OCD's have the right to mess up the lives of those they leave behind.
This doesn't just include family, the police, doctors, social services and even friends are caught up in a tragic death, a death that could have been prevented. Family are left feeling guilty wishing they had done more to convince them of the error of their ways.

Stu's problem may not be life threatening at the moment, but delaying the inevitable could, in the long term, be a threat to regret.

Pete Knight

[Sanslines]

No doubt, and even as a newcomer here, I've caught a fair bit of the dialogue :)

That being said - it's the right of an alcoholic to drink himself into the grave, just so long as such a person doesn't then expect society to "save" him if he decides he doesn't like the consequences.

It's tragic, but many things are. That doesn't mean one should stop trying to prevent tragedy, but merely that it is, sometimes, outside the realm of what one can affect.

I understand what you are saying but I am the type of person who will go up to a bridge jumper and talk that person down from jumping. Furthermore, since bridge jumping (ie suicide) is a cry for help, I will do what I can to get help for the bridge jumper. Certainly the bridge jumper has a right to jump and end his or her life but I can not just walk on by and let that person end their life without interceeding.

Stu is a proverbial bridge jumper. Stu has avoided facing his real problem which is a very serious and irrational phobia by finding an alternative medical procedure at this time. Under any other normal circumstances I would be extremely happy for Stu. However knowing the real reasons as to why he is seeking this alternative ( to avoid facing his phobia at all costs) makes me sad and frustrated.

I know that you may not know Stu or have a history with Stu, but I can tell you that Stu is an extremely stubborn person. You need to take a jackhammer approach with Stu and keep pounding away before you will eventually reach him.

Stu is in such a deep denial about his phobia that it will take enormous jackhammering to even make a slight dent.

Stu is being extremely selfish and seems to be unable to understand that he has family responsibilities. As Pete has said, Stu has avoided dealilng with his real problem right now, but the day will eventually come when he has to face it and as time goes on facing his phobia will only get harder and harder.

[walter05]

Yes of course people with an obsessive compulsive disorder can kill themselves if they want, but it's the people left behind who have to live with the grief and clear up after them, so do these OCD's have the right to mess up the lives of those they leave behind.

This doesn't just include family, the police, doctors, social services and even friends are caught up in a tragic death, a death that could have been prevented. Family are left feeling guilty wishing they had done more to convince them of the error of their ways.

Stu's problem may not be life threatening at the moment, but delaying the inevitable could, in the long term, be a threat to regret.

Pete Knight

I had Legionaire's Disease. I am one of the few alive people with a positive diagnosis. It is because my doctor knew me quite well.

My doctor has seen my penis and scotum and touched them. He has also done the Digital Rectal Examination to check my prostate.

Because he knew me so well, I am alive.

Maybe this time, Stu will be okay. But will the doctor really know Stu's body? not as welll as he could have.

At some point this could kill him. Like you, I feel most sorry for his wife and daughter. I wish he had more love and compassion for them than a fear of being seen naked.

[Flanudedude]

Stu,
With all due respect, why do you frequent this site and post if you are so against nudism? This is a nudist site, ergo we are nudists. Save yourself a lot of angst and don't frequent this site. Your blood pressure and that of most of us that read your posts will go down dramatically. LOL

[HabaneroSting]

This is a good example of how fear of the body, whether someone else's or your own can be extremely unhealthy. I'm glad you brought this up Stu.

[Stu2630]

Flanudedude

What gives you the impression that I'm "against nudism"? In reality, the opposite is true: I support responsible and considerate nudism as practised by the overwhelming majority of nudists. The only time I object to nudism is when it is practised in public and in full view of people who are not nudists (e.g. like the WNBR, or the antics of the Naked Rambler).

I came here to discuss this particular problem because I know that people here are open about issues such as this and I was interested to see what some of my nudist friends knew about it and what they would advise. And I do take to heart what people here say to me even if I don't always follow their advice.

HabaneroSting

I discovered yesterday that many people share my aversion to such intimate procedures, especially when they ate being carried out as a matter of routine. The lady I spoke to at the clinic told me most of their patients had the same kind of issues that I have and that virtual cystoscopy was an acceptable alternative. So it is evident that I'm nowhere near as "unique" or "phobic" as some people here liketo make out.

I hope people will respect the fact that I have been able to find such an alternative and so I have made a decision to undergo a test which is almost as efficient as the one originally proposed and that, for me, it is the right choice. If at some future time I have to have a more invasive (and thus embarrassing) procedure, then I will have to make a decision at that stage.

Stu

[Sanslines]

I discovered yesterday that many people share my aversion to such intimate procedures, especially when they ate being carried out as a matter of routine. The lady I spoke to at the clinic told me most of their patients had the same kind of issues that I have and that virtual cystoscopy was an acceptable alternative. So it is evident that I'm nowhere near as "unique" or "phobic" as some people here liketo make out.

Such people do not spend inordinate amounts of time in a nudist forum reinforcing and feeding their phobia. Such people do not avoid exposing their genitals to anyone including trained medical personnel and their significant others at all costs due to paralyzing fear.

Most people are adverse to any medical procedures but proceed with those procedures because rational analysis leads them to believe that the alternatives ie sickness and death are not very good options. Many people also do not justify their phobia by attempting to state that there are others who share their phobia. In the end, just because others share a problem is not an excuse to resolve one's own problem.

I hope people will respect the fact that I have been able to find such an alternative and so I have made a decision to undergo a test which is almost as efficient as the one originally proposed and that, for me, it is the right choice. If at some future time I have to have a more invasive (and thus embarrassing) procedure, then I will have to make a decision at that stage.

Stu

People have no say in your decision. It is your decision and your life. People who understand the real reasons why you are willing to travel over 200 miles to an exceedingly expensive clinic that will not doubt take your money and then perform your procedure in a NHS facility can see beyond your denial. Anyone who openly admits a very serious and irrational fear or phobia of any exposure of privates which include exposure to medical personnel and significant others does indeed have a very serious problem and is unique.

The views and opinions of such an individual are clearly not at all representative of mainstream textile views towards nudism and nudity. Members of this forum should clearly realize that. People who debate you need to realize that they are debating with a person who is consumed by an irrational phobia as the real Stu is somehow trapped inside this phobia.

Stu, you will do whatever you wish and will continue with your denials of a very serious and incapacitating phobia that is ruling your life. It is a real tragedy that you will not listen to anyone here and take that basic first step towards recovery. You will never be a nudist and that is perfectly fine but the fact that you present irrational arguments against standard medical procedures and will go to the ends of the earth to avoid any exposure of your privates to trained medical personnel speaks volumes. You have a serious phobia. You refuse to see it. Others do! Real friends will not ignore or pander to your phobia but will instead tell you what you need to hear and keep telling you it until it hopefully sinks in. You clearly need someone in your life to give you a good kick in your arse and keep kicking you in your arse until you finally wake up!

I am personally very sorry that you will not take the first step and free yourself from this tremendous burden. I guarantee that your life would be so much better by freeing yourself of this phobia. Instead, you dispute and ignore those who try to reach out to you in an attempt to wake you up and help you. You chose to continue down this road of a phobia controlled life. What a tragedy!! You remind me of an alcoholic friend who made every excuse, and lived in constant denial about his drinking problem until the day arrived when he wound up in hospital with a 50 -50 chance to live. At that point he woke up and decided to live. He sought help and overcame his addiction. You can do the same if only you would wake up and give yourself a chance and stop with the endless denials. In the end you fool no one but yourself and you alone will pay the ultimate price if you chose not to wake up!

[Pete Knight]

Stu, you will do whatever you wish and will continue with your denials of a very serious and incapacitating phobia that is ruling your life. It is a real tragedy that you will not listen to anyone here and take that basic first step towards recovery. You will never be a nudist and that is perfectly fine but the fact that you present irrational arguments against standard medical procedures and will go to the ends of the earth to avoid any exposure of your privates to trained medical personnel speaks volumes. You have a serious phobia. You refuse to see it. Others do! Real friends will not ignore or pander to your phobia but will instead tell you what you need to hear and keep telling you it until it hopefully sinks in. You clearly need someone in your life to give you a good kick in your arse and keep kicking you in your arse until you finally wake up!

I am personally very sorry that you will not take the first step and free yourself from this tremendous burden. I guarantee that your life would be so much better by freeing yourself of this phobia. Instead, you dispute and ignore those who try to reach out to you in an attempt to wake you up and help you. You chose to continue down this road of a phobia controlled life. What a tragedy!! You remind me of an alcoholic friend who made every excuse, and lived in constant denial about his drinking problem until the day arrived when he wound up in hospital with a 50 -50 chance to live. At that point he woke up and decided to live. He sought help and overcame his addiction. You can do the same if only you would wake up and give yourself a chance and stop with the endless denials. In the end you fool no one but yourself and you alone will pay the ultimate price if you chose not to wake up!

I have to say I admire Sanslines for his open and honest appraisal of the situation, the above bears no malice, it displays nothing but concern, and I applaud it. :applause:

Whatever has gone on in the past I sincerely hope that Stu has learned something from this, and I hope he shares our thoughts with his family, and that they come to realise that there is an underlying problem that needs to be dealt with.

Stu, your aversion is fine if you wish to confine it to your life, but you are trying to foist your fears and phobia's on us, that's why we get frustrated and angry with you, but no more, from now on I feel nothing but pity for you, and for your family.

Incidentally, it's just as well that your daughter didn't inherit your irrational phobia (Although you may have influenced her mindset.), otherwise it would have been impossible to qualify as a doctor.

Pete Knight

[walter05]

You are right that most people share your aversion.

It is embarrassing when my doctor is feeling my testilces and inspecting my penis.

It is more embarrassing when he puts a finger in my anus and checks my prostate and then sweeps his finger around my rectum checking for polyps while he is at it. Then when he takes a little fecal matter from his finger and uses it to get a fecal occult test, I find that embarrassing also.

I do understand the embarrassment. The difference is that I live with the embarrassment. You may die with the embarrrssment.

Having nearly died two years ago, I understand how wonderful and fragile our lives are. I will fight for every day I can get. If that means getting a finger in my rectum on a regular basis, I will endure and be thankful that this finger may save my life.

[Stu2630]

Walter et al

You all seem to be overlooking the fact that I am having a cystoscopy. Yes, it's a virtual cystoscopy but, I am assured on reliable medical advice, it's "virtually as good as the real thing".

I have said, several times, that if they find something untoward (which the odds are they won't) and it is recommended that I have a normal, rigid cystoscopy (either to confirm the findings or to take a biopsy) then I will seriously consider having it. I have not only promised YOU this, but I have also promised my family it. I always keep my promises so, for me, that's a huge thing and yet you are all giving me a hard time.

If I had gone for my virtual cysto and they had found something suspicious and then I said I wasn't going to allow them to do whatever tests they thought appropriate, you would be justified in giving me a hard time. But I haven't even had the tests yet!

Stu

[Sanslines]

Walter et al

You all seem to be overlooking the fact that I am having a cystoscopy. Yes, it's a virtual cystoscopy but, I am assured on reliable medical advice, it's "virtually as good as the real thing".

I have said, several times, that if they find something untoward (which the odds are they won't) and it is recommended that I have a normal, rigid cystoscopy (either to confirm the findings or to take a biopsy) then I will seriously consider having it. I have not only promised YOU this, but I have also promised my family it. I always keep my promises so, for me, that's a huge thing and yet you are all giving me a hard time.

If I had gone for my virtual cysto and they had found something suspicious and then I said I wasn't going to allow them to do whatever tests they thought appropriate, you would be justified in giving me a hard time. But I haven't even had the tests yet!

Stu

Stu (or should I just refer to you as Mr et al),

Do whatever you wish. I know that the reason that you are having a VIRTUAL cystoscopy is to avoid having to show your privates to ANYONE. You also keep going on about a RIGID cystoscopy when you would most probably be given a FLEXIBLE cystoscopy. I can tell you this upfront. The urologist will find nothing. You will then come back to this forum and gloat over the findings. You may fool some but you will not fool others. A virtual cystoscopy is NOT the same as a traditional one. Why would you not want to have the best and most accurate procedure possible? It is simply because your phobia will not allow you to experience this proceedure because it involves exposing your private parts. Your phobia prevents you from admitting this to yourself. We all see it for what it is.

I do not believe in your promises for one milisecond. Your 'considerations' are only appeasements to your phobia. Several doctors in YOUR area have already recommended that you have a traditional flexible cystoscopy and you have declined all of them. What makes you think that you will decide anything different in the future? Stu, we know your game. We know that you have a serious phobia. We know that you will never submit to a traditional cystoscopy. We know that you are in a continuous state of denial.

Why not just do this? Why not just send a pile of money to the Harley Street clinic and they can post a report to you telling you whatever you wish to hear. The report can contain glowing statements of how you are in such perfect health or whatever you wish it to say. Doing this would save you the time and expense of travelling to London for a procedure that can be done locally with a Flexible cystoscope and under anasthesia.

Stu, several of us have gone on and on about your 'procedures' and your phobia. I will speak for myself in that I would help you every step of the way in helping you to conquer your phobia. I will not appease your phobia by pandering to your denials. You make choices and you pay the consequences. Just remember that several individuals have attempted to help you. You respond to this kindness by continuing to deny that you have a phobia and try to hood wink us with your denials. You are so much like an alcoholic who denies and denies that he has a drinking problem. How sad!

[David77]

Having had blood in my urine in April of 2008, I can sympathize. It was quite frightening, and especially since my sister died from internal bleeding (from the stomach). My urine was the color of red wine, so the doctor put me in the hospital for a week.

I'm ok in that department now, after I stopped taking the blood thinner cumadon, a blood thinner which I took after I had hip replacement surgery.

It is quite a relief from anxiety, when the urine turns back to its normal color!

Stu, may they stop your bleeding soon, friend.

[walter05]

I am overlooking nothing. There is a potential risk to your life and threat. To me that trumps all arguments.

I accept the choice you are making. I disagree with it and I feel sorry for your family.

I am a fan of American football. I heard Vince Dooley, the former University of Georgia coach say to a reporter "Woulda, Coulda, and Shoulda are always the reasons some give fore loosing". Real men learn their lessons, accept responsibilty and do better.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

I know that the reason that you are having a VIRTUAL cystoscopy is to avoid having to show your privates to ANYONE.

Yup, that is the main reason. I already said that.

You also keep going on about a RIGID cystoscopy when you would most probably be given a FLEXIBLE cystoscopy.

That's not correct. I was told, by the urologist, that I had the choice of a flexible cystoscopy under local anaesthetic or a rigid cystoscopy under a general anaesthetic. If they found anything and I agreed to have a proper cystoscopy, I'd choose to have the latter. My daughter also reckons that, if they found anything in the virtual cystoscopy, they would automatically do a rigid one anyway so that they could (a) take a proper look at it and (b) take a biopsy.

I can tell you this upfront. The urologist will find nothing.

So what's the problem? :)

You will then come back to this forum and gloat over the findings.

:D

A virtual cystoscopy is NOT the same as a traditional one.

Informed medical opinion says it is "virtually" as good. And it's risk-free and there are no side-effects.

Your phobia prevents you from admitting this to yourself.

I have said all along that the main reason is that i don't like people seeing, or interfering with, my private parts.

We know that you will never submit to a traditional cystoscopy.

I won't submit to one if, as in this instance, it's just a matter of routine. And that's precisely what it is! I've had blood and protein in my urine so they sent me for a cysto, just to be on the safe side. I also won't submit to one if there is a more acceptable alternative, which there is (virtual cystoscopy). But I have said before, and I'll say again, that if they find anything on the virtual exam that requires further investigation, I will consider what they say and, if they think a real cysto is absolutely essential, then I'll do it. I'm not just saying that to get you off my back - I mean it - and i have promised my family I would go through with it. I'm sorry if you don't believe me, buy short of me swearing an affadavit to that effect, I don't know how else to convince you of my sincerity.

But, if you are right and they find nothing, then that won't be an issue, will it? :D

Stu

[MoonShadow]

Goodness! Everyone, you should just quit even posting to Stu. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He is doing his own thing due to his denial to his phobia. He isn't going to change until he acknowledges to himself that he has a serious problem. His phobia rules him in all aspects of his life as well as the lives of his wife and children.

All who are trying to help him get help to overcome his phobia are wasting your time. You are to be commended for trying.

Truly sad.

[Sanslines]

Stu,

When I said that 'they will find nothing' I meant that you will tell us that they found 'nothing' regardless of the real outcome.

Also, if they find 'something' they will not automatically do a traditional cystoscopy for you will be fully awake and you will debate them to death rather then submit to any form of traditional cystoscopy.

If you honestly believe that any cystoscopy, virtual or traditional, is 'just a matter of rountine. then why submit to the procedure at all. Is it because it is clearly not just a 'matter of rountine' but because you have a problem which involves blood in your urine and the doctors are attempting to determine if there are any problems within your uninary tract. Your local doctors have all opined about a traditional cystoscopy (which is the most accurate and best procedure availible) and yet you have declined all of them in favor of a less accurate method for the sole purpose of pandering to your phobia.

You clearly are going to continue to avoid facing your phobia and think that you are being clever because this time around you can pander to your phobia.

If you had told us a different story, which is that you will initially pursue a virtual cystoscopy in London AND ALSO take the first step in dealing with your phobia by seeking psychological treatment then my response would be very different. You know as well as I do that Harley Street is full of all kinds of specialists including psychiatrists and therapists. You could easily schedule an appointment to confront your phobia as well as see the urologist. Instead you continue to deny that you have a serious phobia and ignore dealing with it. Some day it all will catch up to you and cost you your life. Such is your decision.

[Sanslines]

Goodness! Everyone, you should just quit even posting to Stu. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He is doing his own thing due to his denial to his phobia. He isn't going to change until he acknowledges to himself that he has a serious problem. His phobia rules him in all aspects of his life as well as the lives of his wife and children.

All who are trying to help him get help to overcome his phobia are wasting your time. You are to be commended for trying.

Truly sad.

It is very sad indeed. He acts just like an alcoholic in complete denial. The most important thing for everyone to remember right now is that when (if) they debate Stu, they are not debating a rational person or a typical textile. They are debating with a man who has a very serious phobia about 'private parts' and they will never win out over such a mental condition. I do not say this with anything but complete sadness for I believe that several individuals have honestly attempted to help Stu. Instead of allowing this to occur and utilize this forum as a positive and healthy experience, Stu uses it as a means to reinforce his phobia. That, in and of itself , is a complete tragedy. Given this understanding, posters need to ask themselves if they want to assist in reinforcing Stu's phobia. Doing so can be analogous to giving alcohol to an alcoholic and I am believe that many out of good conscious would never do that. I don't think that any of us need to put nails in Stu's coffin.

[Pete Knight]

That, in and of itself , is a complete tragedy.
And a bloody annoyance to those of us trying to have a meaningful debate about naturism.

Pete Knight

[barenaked1]

This has been an ongoing discussion. Sanslines, in my opinion, is dead on with the issue, but Stu will be Stu. As I have said before, I don't know why he continues to frequent this board, but now it becomes a matter of sadness at his inability to deal with his issues. More and more, I feel sadness for his family as he certainly appears to be more in denial about his personal health than he does about nudity.

Stu,
With all due respect, why do you frequent this site and post if you are so against nudism? This is a nudist site, ergo we are nudists. Save yourself a lot of angst and don't frequent this site. Your blood pressure and that of most of us that read your posts will go down dramatically. LOL

[Stu2630]

I would have thought that this thread would have been ended when I said

1. I was attending a virtual cystoscopy, which is "virtually as good" as the real thing, and

2. I would take a fresh look at the matter IF anything potentially dangerous was found in that examination, although I know that's unlikely.

I have read every posting on here and taken notice of the views. I am grateful for the advice expressed here and it certainly has influenced my views on what I should do if they find something during the virtual cysto. But I have made my decision to have the virtual cysto rather than a real one for the initial investigation and even my family accepts it and respects it. I ask others here to do the same and get back to talking about naturism.

If anything untoward is found then I will be entirely open and honest about it both to my family and to any of my friends on here who wants to know.

Once again, thanks for the concern and advice, but let's leave it at that for now. ;)

Stu

[Pete Knight]

I would have thought that this thread would have been ended when I said


That's what you were hoping, and now you're feeling the annoyance and frustration that we feel when you continually try to ram anti-nudity opinions down our throats, the difference this time is that we are right, the facts are right!

Confront your fears and you will beat them, but continuing to bolster your phobia with fallacious comments only serves to exacerbate your problem, and now it's coming home to roost in the form of medical treatment you can't face up to. Lets face it, as you get older you'll need to undergo many more intimate examinations, or shorten your life quite considerably, and it won't be you that suffers most, it will be those you leave behind.

This is your wake up call, pay heed to it.

Pete Knight

[Sanslines]

That's what you were hoping, and now you're feeling the annoyance and frustration that we feel when you continually try to ram anti-nudity opinions down our throats, the difference this time is that we are right, the facts are right!

Confront your fears and you will beat them, but continuing to bolster your phobia with fallacious comments only serves to exacerbate your problem, and now it's coming home to roost in the form of medical treatment you can't face up to. Lets face it, as you get older you'll need to undergo many more intimate examinations, or shorten your life quite considerably, and it won't be you that suffers most, it will be those you leave behind.

This is your wake up call, pay heed to it.

Pete Knight

Right On!!!

[Sanslines]

I would have thought that this thread would have been ended when I said

1. I was attending a virtual cystoscopy, which is "virtually as good" as the real thing, and

2. I would take a fresh look at the matter IF anything potentially dangerous was found in that examination, although I know that's unlikely.

I have read every posting on here and taken notice of the views. I am grateful for the advice expressed here and it certainly has influenced my views on what I should do if they find something during the virtual cysto. But I have made my decision to have the virtual cysto rather than a real one for the initial investigation and even my family accepts it and respects it. I ask others here to do the same and get back to talking about naturism.

If anything untoward is found then I will be entirely open and honest about it both to my family and to any of my friends on here who wants to know.

Once again, thanks for the concern and advice, but let's leave it at that for now. ;)

Stu

Stu,

You can just as easily schedule an appointment with a therapist, pshychiatrist, psyshologist specialist whilst on Harley Street. It you need help finding a specialist, I will be more then happy to assist you. Instead you continue to swim in self denial and avoid even acknowledging your need for this kind of intervention.

You are such a lucky man that you don't even realise it. You have no money constraints that prevent you from seeing any specialist to being the process of dealing with your phobia. You have no time constraints and if you would honestly spend a minor amount of time (that you spend in this forum) working on your phobia, you would be well on the way to recovery. Instead you continue with the denial.

The truth that you can not face is that several doctors in your area have offered you the best possible procedure for your hematuria. You patently reject them all and continue to pander to your phobia by seeking an alternate procedure that is not as good . You do this ONLY because of your phobia. Such is your choice. Such is also your choice to take the first step to dealiing with your phobia. Instead of taking that step, you continue with self denial and believe that people in this forum will continue to debate as if nothing is wrong.

People in this forum now clearly realize the extent of your phobia against any exposure of certain areas of the human body under any circumstances, and will also understand that your views are not those of a rational or representative textile. You now ask that people continue with the debates and yet you fail to realize just how much has changed. Given what people now know about your phobia, why would anyone want to debate with this viscious phobia? The debates would reveal nothing about textiles attitudes towards nudists and everything about how an irrational phobia reacts to nudism - which most people already know.

There is one aspect of this whole issue that you don't seem to understand and that is that debating with a person consumed by a chronic phobia is analogous to debating with a person at the local mental institution. It is not only fruitless and pointless, but it can very well be considered cruel and unfair to take advantage of someone who is beyond rational discourse. It can also be considered very cruel to do anything that promotes and prolongs a person's debilitating condition. Engaging in debates accomplishes exactly that.

People in this forum now understand why you continue in this forum and it is to reinforce and strengthen your phobia. That is extremely unhealthy and has absolutely nothing to do with promoting positive nudist values. Your phobia certainly allows for use (abuse )against nudists who are innocent and have absolutely nothing to do with causing your phobia. Why victimize them with endless anti nudity debates?

Stu, again I say wake up! As painful as it may be....... face your phobia. As time goes on it will only get harder and harder so please face it NOW! Excellent help is availible for you. Focus your energies and monies on facing this phobia rather then wasting your energies and monies pandering to your phobia. I guarantee that once you take the first small step, an enormous burden will be lifted from you and you will begin to see life in a very different light. Life is much too important to waste it on a burdensome and controlling phobia.

More then enough has been said on this topic and it is time to end badgering you. All badgering was done in an attempt to reach you and assist you in becoming a better person that is free from a serious irrational phobia. In the end, the final choice is yours. Let it be known that you had the benefit of some individuals standing up to you and telling you what you need to hear. Not everyone in life is so lucky. Sadly, knowing the truth behind what drives you to come to this forum is a very, very sad truth and nothing will ever be the same from this point forward.

[jennan32za]

Well, I'm late to this, but you have to do what you have to do.

I had a mate who avoided going to the doctor after a skateboarding injury to the groin because he was too shy. When the issue finally became unbearable and he swallowed his pride and went in for a consultation, they admitted him immediately and removed a now-cancerous testicle the same day.

Just a thought... you want to catch these things early, because sometimes the late part of "better late than never" involves people referring to you as "the late [your name here]."

-d-

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

My son-in-law is a psychiatrist; presently registrar grade with he expects to be made a consultant early next year. I have discussed this issue with him countless times and he is clear that my aversion to nudity may or may not be clinically "phobic", but while it is not dysfunctional to my life, there would be little to gain from seeking any "treatment". He also says that the only "treatment" likely to be effective would be "flooding therapy" (which he did not explain, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with undergoing surgical procedures where there is a non-invasive alternative). He also considers that my feelings about nakedness probably lie at the extreme end of the "normal" level and would fall far short of the parameters required to define them as "neuroses".

Incidentally, he also dismisses nudists' assertions that nudism has nothing to do with sex: he suspects it stems from unconscious, and possibly primeval, sexual desires. On that point, I actually disagree with him.

This morning, I attended my local surgery for the nurse to check my asthma. I asked her to test a urine sample I had brought along for blood and protein, and it was clear (Phew!). I also asked her to take a blood sample for a PSA test, as it is about 18-months since I had one, and I should get the results back in about a week. If either the virtual cysto check, or the PSA test, come back with anything worrying, then I'll do whatever is recommended by the doctors. I probably won't like it - but I'll do it. Can't you accept that, in me making this promise, you have to a large extent won the argument? I have been reading what people like you and Walter and Pete have been telling me and what my family has been urging me to do and you have persuaded me to change my views. I'm now prepared to comply - but ONLY if something shows up in one of my tests. I hope you won't gloat about this, but rather you will recognise you have moved stubborn old Stu, maybe not as far as you would have liked, but you have moved me nevertheless, and give me some credit for the fact that I was willing to reconsider. Or is that expecting too much?

jennan

You make a good point, and one that is not lost on me.

All I ask is that you read what I say and make your mind up about me based on that, rather than the jaundiced views about me that some people here constantly express.

To save you having to read the whole thread, I had blood in my urine, suspected to be a kidney stone, and declined a cystoscopy because I would find it too embarrassing. I am now awaiting a non-invasive "virtual cystoscopy" which, I am assured, is "virtually as good". In spite of my original intentions NEVER to submit to a real cystoscopy, I have relented and if it shows up anything to worry about, then I will do whatever is necessary to have the diagnosis confirmed, including a traditional cystoscopy. I would have thought that was a reasonable compromise.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines

My son-in-law is a psychiatrist; presently registrar grade with he expects to be made a consultant early next year. I have discussed this issue with him countless times and he is clear that my aversion to nudity may or may not be clinically "phobic", but while it is not dysfunctional to my life, there would be little to gain from seeking any "treatment". He also says that the only "treatment" likely to be effective would be "flooding therapy" (which he did not explain, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with undergoing surgical procedures where there is a non-invasive alternative). He also considers that my feelings about nakedness probably lie at the extreme end of the "normal" level and would fall far short of the parameters required to define them as "neuroses".

Incidentally, he also dismisses nudists' assertions that nudism has nothing to do with sex: he suspects it stems from unconscious, and possibly primeval, sexual desires. On that point, I actually disagree with him.

This morning, I attended my local surgery for the nurse to check my asthma. I asked her to test a urine sample I had brought along for blood and protein, and it was clear (Phew!). I also asked her to take a blood sample for a PSA test, as it is about 18-months since I had one, and I should get the results back in about a week. If either the virtual cysto check, or the PSA test, come back with anything worrying, then I'll do whatever is recommended by the doctors. I probably won't like it - but I'll do it. Can't you accept that, in me making this promise, you have to a large extent won the argument? I have been reading what people like you and Walter and Pete have been telling me and what my family has been urging me to do and you have persuaded me to change my views. I'm now prepared to comply - but ONLY if something shows up in one of my tests. I hope you won't gloat about this, but rather you will recognise you have moved stubborn old Stu, maybe not as far as you would have liked, but you have moved me nevertheless, and give me some credit for the fact that I was willing to reconsider. Or is that expecting too much?

jennan

You make a good point, and one that is not lost on me.

All I ask is that you read what I say and make your mind up about me based on that, rather than the jaundiced views about me that some people here constantly express.

To save you having to read the whole thread, I had blood in my urine, suspected to be a kidney stone, and declined a cystoscopy because I would find it too embarrassing. I am now awaiting a non-invasive "virtual cystoscopy" which, I am assured, is "virtually as good". In spite of my original intentions NEVER to submit to a real cystoscopy, I have relented and if it shows up anything to worry about, then I will do whatever is necessary to have the diagnosis confirmed, including a traditional cystoscopy. I would have thought that was a reasonable compromise.

Stu

Stu,

I assume that your son in law is approximately the same age as your medical doctor daughter. This means that he is still young. He may have plenty of book knowledge but he does not have the life knowledge with phobic patients to be able to address your problem as it should be addressed. Furthermore, he is family and is not objective enough.

What you need is a doctor who specializes in phobia and has extensive experience dealing with patients who suffer from phobias. You need a doctor that does not know you and can therefore be purely objective. Since you are determined to go to a Harley Street urologist and are going to make a special trip to London to do so, you might as well research and find a good phobia specialist (note that I am refraining from specifying therapist / psychologist / psychiatrist on purpose) for an initial consult. When you meet with this specialist you need to be very open and honest about your phobia and not withhold any pertinent information. You need to inform the doctor that you are absolutely terrified of anyone seeing your privates and your fear includes medical doctors. You need to explain that you could have had a traditional cystoscopy procedure performed in your local area by a trained urologist who even offered to anesthetize you but you declined due to the fact that even while asleep you would know that the doctor 'messed about' with your privates. You instead chose to travel and long and arduous distance to undertake a virtual cystoscopy procedure that is not as effective as the traditional method but would allow for you to refrain from exposing your privates. You also need to explain to this doctor that you have spent the past several years endlessly debating with nudists in a nudist forum. Make it clear that the forum has a variety of threads including many non nudist threads but you never posted to a non nudist thread. You instead chose to solely focus upon being contradictatory to nudist. You also need to inform the doctor that no one in your family has ever seen your privates including your wife and that special procedures are followed so that you could bear children without allowing your wife to ever see your privates. You need to be upfront, totally honest, and direct with the phobia specialist and then allow him (most probably him since I do not believe that you would see a female specialist) to make a proper determination.

As for 'flooding therapy', this kind of therapy is commonly used to desensatize someone from that which forms the basis of their phobia. In your case, you have a compound problem in that you can not tolerate ever seeing anyone naked or partially naked ie a woman's breast nipple and in addition you can never allow anyone to see your privates under any circumstances.

Flooding therapy may involve a variety of methods. In your case it might involve subjecting you to constant and non stop photos of naked people until you become numb and less sensitive to it. The therapy may further involve that you subject yourself to naked people in real life. There are many possibilities depending upon the particulars of your case.

[walter05]

If I were Stu's son in law, I would have told him the same thing.

Working on Stu would take so much time it would wreak his marriage and his practice.

Besides, one has to be willing to be helped for any help to work.

[David77]

Stu,
I am very glad to hear that you have progressed to the point that you no longer have blood in your urine.

Two or three years ago I told you that I would send you a tape that I had recorded from my TV which is about the work of the phobia specialist, a clinical psychologist at Cambridge University.

Now I recall that our VHS tapes can not be played in Europe, as a machine must be designed to record a given standard. Typically, a VHS machine can only handle signals of the country it was sold in.

If you want, I can play the tape again at my home to look up the name of this phobia sprecialist, so that you could at least talk to him by telephone about your two phobias.

[barenaked1]

Pete,

You continue to be a good voice of reason.

Thanks!

That's what you were hoping, and now you're feeling the annoyance and frustration that we feel when you continually try to ram anti-nudity opinions down our throats, the difference this time is that we are right, the facts are right!

Confront your fears and you will beat them, but continuing to bolster your phobia with fallacious comments only serves to exacerbate your problem, and now it's coming home to roost in the form of medical treatment you can't face up to. Lets face it, as you get older you'll need to undergo many more intimate examinations, or shorten your life quite considerably, and it won't be you that suffers most, it will be those you leave behind.

This is your wake up call, pay heed to it.

Pete Knight

[Pete Knight]

Stu,


As for 'flooding therapy', this kind of therapy is commonly used to desensatize someone from that which forms the basis of their phobia. In your case, you have a compound problem in that you can not tolerate ever seeing anyone naked or partially naked ie a woman's breast nipple and in addition you can never allow anyone to see your privates under any circumstances.

Flooding therapy may involve a variety of methods. In your case it might involve subjecting you to constant and non stop photos of naked people until you become numb and less sensitive to it. The therapy may further involve that you subject yourself to naked people in real life. There are many possibilities depending upon the particulars of your case.

Over here we have a guy called Gok Wan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gok_Wan) who uses the flooding technique to get women to overcome their low self esteem, he gets them to change their style of dress and at the end of the programme, 'How to Look Good Naked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Look_Good_Naked)' he has them get naked, an image of them naked is in a very public place, on the side of a bus, projected onto a building or on a huge screen in Piccadilly Circus (Our equivalent of Times Square.).

OK so he isn't a trick cyclist, but he appears to be helping an awful lot of women overcome their fears, and I appreciate Stu's condition is a damn sight worse than his ladies, but it does show an example of the 'Flooding' techneque where one confronts ones fears.

Pete Knight

[jennan32za]

jennan

You make a good point, and one that is not lost on me.

All I ask is that you read what I say and make your mind up about me based on that, rather than the jaundiced views about me that some people here constantly express.

To save you having to read the whole thread,

Actually, I did read almost the whole thing yesterday afternoon before posting. Skimmed a few posts, but read most of them.

I have relented and if it shows up anything to worry about, then I will do whatever is necessary to have the diagnosis confirmed, including a traditional cystoscopy. I would have thought that was a reasonable compromise.

This bit is new. At last count, the only thing I could find in your posts was that you might "seriously consider" the cystoscopy, and that seemed far from definitive to me. Either way, it worries me that you are willing to compromise your own health because I couldn't choose to do that.

I'm not looking for a fight here - you clearly have your own set of reasons, which I'm not all that keen to go look up; from what I've gathered in this thread I feel it would make me seem like one of those guys who gawks at car accidents - and I understand where you're coming from. We've all had ****ty experiences with doctors who treat us as a number and not with great care like you see on TV; I had a completely humiliating experience myself when they were trying to elucidate the cause of high blood pressure some years back, detailed elsewhere if anyone is keen for a read.

Fact of the matter remains, sometimes you have to do what you have to do even if it's not what you want. I'd worry if any procedure was "virtually" as good as another one; I'd want "exactly" as good as another one. I wouldn't go for, say, a dental filling made from something which is almost as good as typical dental amalgam - I'd want it done properly and definitively the first time around, so I know that it is taken care of. Your situation of the other procedure being almost as good as the bog-standard one - wouldn't you still worry at the back of your conscious that this only slightly sub-par procedure might have missed something?

Put it another way, would you as a parent be happy if the doctor suggested a sub-par procedure on one of your children, when you knew there was a more definitive tool available? I mean, a surgeon could achieve a decent cut with a steak-knife as easily as with a scalpel. And hey, perhaps the end even justifies the means... if he doesn't have access to a scalpel.

I may be over-egging the pudding here, I realise that, but I'm thinking I'd want to know for sure, come Hell or high water, otherwise I'd drive myself crazy wondering if I made the right choice in the end. Hell, I agonise over which of 2 t-shirts to buy in the stores; I'd kill myself wondering if I'd made the right decision for something which is actually, you know, important.

Good luck either way.
-d-

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

I assume that your son in law is approximately the same age as your medical doctor daughter. This means that he is still young.

He is 30-years of age and has practised for 6-years. He has worked in three hospitals and also a high-security prison facility and he has had several papers published.

Furthermore, he is family and is not objective enough.

Oh, he's always objective! Sometimes irritatingly so.

What you need is a doctor who specializes in phobia and has extensive experience dealing with patients who suffer from phobias.

He's not a phobia 'specialist', but he does routinely deal with phobias in his outpatient work. He knows my feelings about nudity and he thinks they are idiosyncratic rather than neurotic. My daughter says he is quite a bashful character, too, and that's one of the reasons he opted to go into psychiatry when he qualified as a doctor. When my wife told him about the "virtual cystoscopy", he grimaced and said, and I quote, "I can't say I blame him".

As for 'flooding therapy', this kind of therapy is commonly used to desensatize someone from that which forms the basis of their phobia. In your case, you have a compound problem in that you can not tolerate ever seeing anyone naked or partially naked ie a woman's breast nipple and in addition you can never allow anyone to see your privates under any circumstances.

No, that's not true. Many years ago, I would feel faint if I saw a naked person, specially a female, but I have been on plenty of beaches where I have seen topless women. I don't like the sight of it, but I can certainly tolerate it. My wife and I don't get undressed in each other's presence, but that's a matter of preference. When my wife was very ill a couple of years ago, I had to help her into the shower and to get herself dressed for a few days and I managed fine.

Flooding therapy may involve a variety of methods. In your case it might involve subjecting you to constant and non stop photos of naked people until you become numb and less sensitive to it.

I could do that myself. I could spend a short holiday at a nudist beach. If I thought I needed to overcome my dislike of nakedness, I'd do precisely that. But it's just not a big enough issue for me at this time.

You also need to explain to this doctor that you have spent the past several years endlessly debating with nudists in a nudist forum. Make it clear that the forum has a variety of threads including many non nudist threads but you never posted to a non nudist thread.

I come here because I enjoy the debates and discussions. I have similar debates on many forums, not just ones related to nudity. As for 'threads', I have contributed to many threads on this site, including the "technical" thread where people discuss computer issues. In fact, this thread is to do with health and fitness rather than nudity.

David77

Thanks for your kind offer. If I feel that either my doll phobia, or my aversion to nudity, start to cause me significant problems, then rest assured I will seek assistance from a specialist.

jennan

I can see what you are saying. Remember that I have been offered a cystoscopy because it is health service 'policy' to offer this test to anyone who has, or who has had, blood in their urine. I had symptoms of a kidney stone for about 48-hours. The flank pain disappeared and now the blood in the urine has stopped. This would tell any practitioner that the blood was caused by the passing of the stone. My doctor daughter says that now there is no blood in my urine, the cystoscopy is not really necessary - it is just a double check that nothing else is going on. In spite of that, I am still having, and paying for, a virtual cystoscopy, which is supposedly 96% - 98% as accurate and reliable. That may not be good enough for you and I can understand that, but it's certainly good enough for me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. ;)

Stu

[Sanslines]

Stu,

So, to sum it all up, you are going to continue to be stubborn and continue with denial. In other words, we are all wasting our time here in our attempts to reach you and wake you up to the fact that you have a serious phobia and that your life would be so much better off without such a phobia.

BTW, to be clear, we have only addressed your nudity phobia. We haven't even mentioned your doll phobia and won't go there for that phobia is not driving you to avoid medical procedures due to exposure of your private parts.

Stubborness and closed mindedness unlimited.................

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

wake you up to the fact that you have a serious phobia and that your life would be so much better off without such a phobia.

I can't understand why you keep repeating the same old mantra that I have a serious phobia about nudity. I don't. I have a moderate aversion to it. If I had a serious phobia, then


I wouldn't be able to tolerate a topless beach - I can
I wouldn't have been able to visit a nudist beach in 2006 - I did
I wouldn't have been able to help my wife shower and dress when she was ill - I did
I wouldn't be able to use the men's changing rooms in my leisure centre when other men are changing or showering - I do

No, I don't like other people seeing my private parts and I would do what I could to avoid it - anything short of taking a serious risk with my life. I judge that my actions regarding the cystoscopy do not constitute such a risk and even my own (doctor) daughter concedes that.

The fact is that you are wildly exaggerating both the extent of my aversion and the risk I am taking.

I have considered all the views and points raised on here, modified my position in light of them, and made a final decision with which my family agree, even if you disagree with it. Just because I haven't made the precise decision you think I should have made does not mean that I am being pig-headed.

Let's move on.

Stu

[Pete Knight]

Thanks for your kind offer. If I feel that either my doll phobia, or my aversion to nudity, start to cause me significant problems, then rest assured I will seek assistance from a specialist.


Cause YOU significant problems, how selfish can you get, you expect everyone else to live their lives to suit YOUR phobia, to alter their lifestyle, but you won't make an effort to make a few adjustments yourself.

I think you need a reality check!

Pete Knight

[Sanslines]

Sanslines



I can't understand why you keep repeating the same old mantra that I have a serious phobia about nudity. I don't. I have a moderate aversion to it. If I had a serious phobia, then


I wouldn't be able to tolerate a topless beach - I can
I wouldn't have been able to visit a nudist beach in 2006 - I did
I wouldn't have been able to help my wife shower and dress when she was ill - I did
I wouldn't be able to use the men's changing rooms in my leisure centre when other men are changing or showering - I do
No, I don't like other people seeing my private parts and I would do what I could to avoid it - anything short of taking a serious risk with my life. I judge that my actions regarding the cystoscopy do not constitute such a risk and even my own (doctor) daughter concedes that.

The fact is that you are wildly exaggerating both the extent of my aversion and the risk I am taking.

I have considered all the views and points raised on here, modified my position in light of them, and made a final decision with which my family agree, even if you disagree with it. Just because I haven't made the precise decision you think I should have made does not mean that I am being pig-headed.

Let's move on.

StuLet's rephrase:

If you freed yourself from your serious phobia, you WOULD BE ABLE TO:

1) Would finally be feee from 'endless denial syndrome'

2) Undergo medical procedures that involve exposure of your privates to a male doctor under anesthesia.

3) Tolerate having your wife see your privates on occassion.

4) Not having to resort to 'performing reproduction acts' in a completely dark room while wearing a 'sleeping sheet'

5) Would be free from distorting facts in an attempt to continue to feed your phobia.

6) Would be able to end antagonizing nudists year after year in a nudist forum with endless anti nudity diatribes. Would be able to partake in more meaningful discussions that are based more on the realities of traditional textiles and less on the fantasies of a phobia.

7) Would be honest about 'visiting' a nudist beach and actually be able to be within 500 feet of a real nudist rather than hiding far away in the distance where nudists appear as mere specks on the horizon.

8) Would have a deeper and more meanigful realationship with your family members.

No doubt the list is endless....................


Stu clearly continues to live in self denial and is being totally pig headed and stubborn as he digs in and refuses to see a trained phobia specialist who can help free him from this tremendous phobia burden.

Stu is also beginning to show signs of delusions as he believes that his own daughter is his personal physician even though he must know at some level that there is a conflict of interest and non objectivity and ruination of the doctor-patient relationship.

Help yourself Stu..............see a trained and objective phobia specialist...............see him NOW!

[Sanslines]

Cause YOU significant problems, how selfish can you get, you expect everyone else to live their lives to suit YOUR phobia, to alter their lifestyle, but you won't make an effort to make a few adjustments yourself.

I think you need a reality check!

Pete Knight

How true!! Unchecked selfishness and stubborness that is so out of control. Hence why I made the comment a few posts above about using the jackhammer approach to Stu. Stu is like a piece of granite and requires constant jackhammering to make even the slightest of dents.

As an aside, here is a very clear and glowing example of how seriously selfish Stu actually is.

Stu said "Thanks for your kind offer. If I feel that either my doll phobia, or my aversion to nudity, start to cause me significant problems, then rest assured I will seek assistance from a specialist."

Certainly Stu's doll phobia does not caused him significant problems so long as everyone around him accomodates this irrational phobia. This means that children (ie young girls) can not play with dolls in Stu's sight. Not only have Stu's own daughters paid the price for Stu's doll phobia, but other girls have also paid the price. How sad when innocent children have to pay the price for adults who refuse to deal with their phobias!

The exact same problem extends to Stu and his phobia about nudism. Stu continues to demand that others cater to his phobias and make all of the sacrifices to accomodate him. For nudists, this means hiding out of sight from Stu so that Stu never has to witness any form of nudity including mere female top freedom. Same old pattern over and over again.......others must always accomodate Stu and his phobias so that Stu can avoid facing them! If this is not a case of severe selfishness, then there is no such thing as being selfish.

Help yoursef Stu...........Wake up! Make a stand in life and face your phobias instead of running away from them and demanding that others make all of the concessions to accomodate your phobias so that you can continue with your endless denials. See a trained and objective phobia specialist..........see him NOW!

Stu, I know you are being ridiculously stubborn and refuse to wake up. I am trying to wake you up! I am trying to get you to take that very first step to facing and conquering your phobia. I guarantee that you will be a much happier person who is at peace within himself once you take that first step. Please stop with the denials! Please seek a trained phobia specialist now. Your phobias ARE affecting other people. Please just WAKE UP!! I am NOT wildly imagining anything. The evidence is all there for you to see it. Just open your eyes and see it!

[Sanslines]

Gymnophobia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


<!-- start content -->Gymnophobia is a fear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear) (phobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia)) of nudity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity). Gymnophobics experience anxiety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety) from nudity, even if they realize their fear is irrational. They may worry about seeing others naked or being seen naked, or both. Their fear may stem from a general anxiety about sexuality, from a fear that they are physically inferior, or from a fear that their nakedness leaves them exposed and unprotected. The word "Gymnophobia" is derived from the Greek "gymnos" (naked) and "phobos" (fear).

Standards of modesty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modesty) (also called demureness or reticence) generally prevent public nudity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_nudity). Avoidance of nudity in private situations may be a continuation of modesty, or may extend to prudishness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prude) or body shame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_shame). Only an actual fear of nudity qualifies as gymnophobia. Only when the fear is beyond one's control or is interfering with daily life can an anxiety disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety_disorder) diagnosis be made.


Phobia Counseling At Harley Therapy London:

http://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/phobia-counselling-london.htm



Cures at the Harley Street Phobia Clinic:

<TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=heading height=27>Conquer Your Phobia Fast - With The Harley Street Phobia Clinic


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 height=57>The Harley Street Phobia Clinic uses a unique combination of Hypnotherapy and modern technology to overcome your phobia once and for all. Our techniques have been rigorously tested and found to be highly effective.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 height=56>Suffering from a phobia, places unnecessary limitations on what you do in life. The good news is we can set you free. Imagine living your life without limitations, such as taking your first flight or being able to go to the dentist.

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 height=27>The Harley Street Phobia Clinic is the solution to conquer your phobia once and for all.

Imagine Life Free of Fear

A lot of clients find that just one session is enough to conquer their phobia for good.
However as everyone is different, some clients may need further sessions dependant on the severaty of the case.

Conquer Your Phobia - The 3 Steps To Life Without Fear

<TABLE width=505 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=text1 vAlign=top width="43%" rowSpan=6>http://harleystreetphobiaclinic.com/images/harleystreetphobiaclinic.jpg</TD><TD class=text1 vAlign=top width="57%" height=22>Step 1. Deciding You Want To Be Free From Fear.


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 vAlign=top height=38>By reading this website you've already decided you want to become free from your phobia.


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=reasons vAlign=center height=22>Step 2. Book An Appointment


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 vAlign=top height=39>Book a convenient day and time either on line (http://harleystreetphobiaclinic.com/appointment.php?p=smoking) or by calling 020 7870 9991


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=reasons vAlign=center height=22>Step 3. Attend Your Private Session.


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 vAlign=top height=41>Attend your relaxing session lasting approximately an hour and a half and leave feeling free, confident, and fantastic.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text1 vAlign=center colSpan=2 height=71><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width="58%" height=48 rowSpan=2>Stu..............Set Yourself Free And
Live Your Life To The Full !

Face and Conquer that Phobia NOW!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


No more anxiety, no more fear, just the freedom to live life to the full and enjoy every day.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
http://harleystreetphobiaclinic.com/

[Sanslines]

Gymnophobia (http://nohardtimes.bloggerunleashed.com/generalnews/gymnophobia/)

The fear of nakedness

Gymnophobia is a Greek composite word. It is comprised by two words, gymnos (γυμνός) which means naked and phobos (φόβος) which means fear. In other words, it is a word to describe the condition of fearing nudity. It is a medical term, and is used to describe individuals who suffer from a phobia or experience anxiety and worry about seeing naked people or be seen naked. The fear, he phobia stems from the a feeling of inferiority, the they are physically inferior. Nekedness therefore, brings out feelings of their iner self, fear being exposed. Nakedness leaves bodies and personalities exposed. Adults who suffer from Gymnophobia realize that their fear is irrational but still fear of the naked and being naked. Gymnophobia can be treated with therapy at a very good success rate. Nevertheless, therapy for Gymnophobia does not necessarily always work.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

Certainly Stu's doll phobia does not caused him significant problems so long as everyone around him accomodates this irrational phobia. This means that children (ie young girls) can not play with dolls in Stu's sight.Both my daughtrs had dolls - lots of dolls - and they were able to play with those dolls in the same room that I was. All they had to do was not bring the doll to me and to put it in a cupboard after playing with it. No big deal.

The exact same problem extends to Stu and his phobia about nudism. Stu continues to demand that others cater to his phobias and make all of the sacrifices to accomodate him.I don't have a phobia about nudism (or nudity) even though you, and some others here, have convinced yourselves that I have. I recently returned home from my gym and talked to other men getting changed and I said "hi" to a guy I know who was in the shower. I don't like nudity: I avoid it where possible and I certainly don't want to encounter it out of the normal contexts (like the changing rooms). But that's NOT a phobia. I have a psychiatrist who knows the extent of my aversion to nudity and he agrees entirely that it falls far short of what is necessary to make it, clinically speaking, a phobia.

Yes, I could deal with my 'aversion' to nudity if I were so minded - but I have no need to and I don't want to. I like my nudity-free envronment and will do whatever I can to keep my world nudity-free. I also see no point in acclimatizing myself to others seeing my private parts. If I suffer a medical condition where it is essential to allow (male) doctors and (male) nurdes to examine or treat me in those areas, then I'll do it - but ONLY if I'm persuaded it is absolutely essential.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines

Both my daughtrs had dolls - lots of dolls - and they were able to play with those dolls in the same room that I was. All they had to do was not bring the doll to me and to put it in a cupboard after playing with it. No big deal.

It is a BIG deal when your wife has phoned ahead to request that people remove all visible dolls from their homes and hide them before your visit. You are in denial and are changing your story now. Just another serious phobia at work!

I don't have a phobia about nudism (or nudity) even though you, and some others here, have convinced yourselves that I have. I recently returned home from my gym and talked to other men getting changed and I said "hi" to a guy I know who was in the shower. I don't like nudity: I avoid it where possible and I certainly don't want to encounter it out of the normal contexts (like the changing rooms). But that's NOT a phobia. I have a psychiatrist who knows the extent of my aversion to nudity and he agrees entirely that it falls far short of what is necessary to make it, clinically speaking, a phobia.

Yes, I could deal with my 'aversion' to nudity if I were so minded - but I have no need to and I don't want to. I like my nudity-free envronment and will do whatever I can to keep my world nudity-free. I also see no point in acclimatizing myself to others seeing my private parts. If I suffer a medical condition where it is essential to allow (male) doctors and (male) nurdes to examine or treat me in those areas, then I'll do it - but ONLY if I'm persuaded it is absolutely essential.

Stu

Stu,

You have a serious phobia that does not allow you to think rationally about it. You are trying to rationalize your phobia away and in the process only reveal the serious extent of your phobia. Several people, including msyelf, have attempted to pursuade you to seek help. I have even taken the time to post links for help for you. I would help you any which way that I can. One thing that I can not do is to patronize your phobia by dismissing it. I accept you but do not accept your phobia. I do not like your phobia one iota. I know that it is like a cancer inside of you that has taken you over. I know that if you would seek PROPER counseling, a tremendous burden would be lifted from you and you would have a very different perspective in life. Your life would be much improved. The mere fact that you mention that you refuse to change is just another indication of how serious your phobia is.

Why not try one counseling session while on Harley Street? You have travelled 250 miles and incured expenses just to get to Harley Street so why not take advantage of being there? If you are seriously honest with the counselor you might just learn something in the process and finally see a way out of your phobia nightmare. Perhaps this is what scares you the most. Finally letting go and getting rid of your phobia.

You are so much like an Englishman of old who was raised to believe in never revealing his true inner feelings. he was also raised to believe that solutions to all of his problems could be found in a pint of bitter at the local pub. Thank goodness those days have slowely changed and society has changed to encourage men to seek help. Seeking help is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of courage. Improving one's mental health is important. I wish that you would only realize this and take that very first step towards recovery. I would help you, admire your courage, and encourage you every step of the way.

[Sanslines]

Phobia Treatment Options

An overview of traditional and complimentary / alternative methods for phobia treatment<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>


This Isn't Happening! Denial or Avoidance

Denial and avoidance are common methods for coping with phobias, or other problems we may face in life. By denying that a problem is there, people mistakenly believe that it will go away on it's own. However, life rarely works like that. Typically the problem will only get worse, and the stress that results from being in denial can begin to create additional problems on top of the phobia itself.

Many people with a phobia will initially simply avoid the situation or objects that cause the symptoms. For example, if you have a fear of elevators, and work on the 4th floor of an office building, you may take the stairs, and tell your coworkers that you do so for the exercise.

Or you might look for a job that is located only on the ground floor of a building. You would take special care to never be in a situation where you had to use an elevator. This may not be a big deal, but certain phobias can be very problematic to avoid, and can become a huge hassle and stress factor in your life, and in the lives of those around you.

http://www.fearintofreedom.com/articles/phobia-treatment.html

[Sanslines]

Phobia Definitions

A phobia is usually an irrational fear stemming from your wrong notion that something or someone can cause some harm to you. In fact it is the most common type of anxiety disorder.

Phobia definitions further illustrates the term phobia as causing many physical and emotional complexities that vary from serious handicaps to familiar fears and insignificant peculiarities. It is usually evident as a fear, hostility, hatred, dislike, discrimination, or prejudice towards the object arousing the phobia.

http://www.phobia-fear-release.com/phobia-definitions.html

[jennan32za]

6) Would be able to end antagonizing nudists year after year in a nudist forum with endless anti nudity diatribes. Would be able to partake in more meaningful discussions that are based more on the realities of traditional textiles and less on the fantasies of a phobia.


As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm new here. I'm sure this has been answered before but I wouldn't know where to start looking.

From what I can gather Stu is averse to his own nakedness, and would also actively oppose someone else from being naked in a public place where it was previously forbidden. He's also mentioned that he opposes children "seeing adult nudity."

So my question is... Why exactly is Stu here? I gather that the site is frequented as much by non-nudists who are curious or perhaps trying to understand the ideas behind naturism, but Stu seems to fall into neither of these camps. Am I correct in assuming whatever his mission is that he is in a minority of one here?

-d-

[Pete Knight]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm new here. I'm sure this has been answered before but I wouldn't know where to start looking.

From what I can gather Stu is averse to his own nakedness, and would also actively oppose someone else from being naked in a public place where it was previously forbidden. He's also mentioned that he opposes children "seeing adult nudity."

So my question is... Why exactly is Stu here? I gather that the site is frequented as much by non-nudists who are curious or perhaps trying to understand the ideas behind naturism, but Stu seems to fall into neither of these camps. Am I correct in assuming whatever his mission is that he is in a minority of one here?

-d-
You appear to have summed up the situation quite well, and several of us have asked the very same question, the man brings nothing but opposition to the forum, and as has been clearly shown in this thread, he won't even allow his own welfare to get in the way of his phobic tendencies.

If Stu was just playing the devils advocate I could happily live with his presence, but he opposes the liberalisation of nudity laws and is quite insistent that we remain ghettoised, but as far as I'm concerned that goes against the ethos of ClothesFree.com.

So whilst I wish him no ill health, I wish he wouldn't clog up the board with his fallacious nonsense.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Jennan

I enjoy the discussion and debate here and I have even made some friends here with whom I correspond privately, either by PM or email.

Pete says "the man brings nothing but opposition to the forum". This is not true. I support responsible and considerate nudism and I believe that more public land should be allocated for nudist or C/O use,

Pete also says: "he opposes the liberalisation of nudity laws and is quite insistent that we remain ghettoised, but as far as I'm concerned that goes against the ethos of ClothesFree.com." The first part is true - I don't want nudity in my environment - I avoid nudity and do not wish to share public spaces with people who are naked. But remember that there are nudists who prefer to be nude around other people in the same state, and have no desire whatsoever to be naked in the presence of textiles, especially those who may be offended by their nakedness. The term "ghetto" that Pete uses implies a cramped, slum area, and I have never advocated any such thing for nudists - quite the reverse! I believe that nudists should have a fair share of public land commensurate with their proportion in the general population. I am not aware of anything in the "ethos" of this forum that is incompatible with the view tha nudists should have plenty of decent, accessible areas that are segregated in some way from the textile domains.

In my view, there is little material difference between a nudist getting naked in the presence of textiles whether they like it or not, and an exhibitionist.

Stu

[Pete Knight]

There you go again, Stu twisting the meaning of ghetto to fit his idea, whereas the accepted notion of a ghetto is as found on Wikipeadia;
A ghetto is described as a "portion of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto)

Are we not a minority group, are we not confined to a portion of a city because of social or legal pressure?

I still maintain people with Stu's debilitating condition are much more of a minority than naturists, with the middle ground being the preserve of the majority of people who aren't at all bothered about nudity, but I'm sure he will attempt to tell you otherwise.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Pete

whereas the accepted notion of a ghetto is as found on WikipeadiaWikipedia? LMAO!!! :laugh: Since when have Wiki entries been authoritative references? Try citing Wiki in a PhD thesis and see what your professor says! Besides, nudists aren't normally confined to "a portion of a city" at all, because (a) the vast majority of nudism doesn't happen in cities, and (b) it is being nude in public that is restricted to certain places, not the people who happen to consider themselves to be nudists. The playing of football is, de facto, restricted to certain places (fields, stadiums etc) but footballers don't try to claim that they are all shoved into "ghettos".

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, a far more reliable indicator of lexical meaning than Wiki, defines ghetto thus:

1. hist. The quarter of a city, chiefly in Italy, to which Jews were restricted.

2. A densely populated slum area occupied by a minority group or groups, usu. as a result of social or economic pressures.

Clearly 1. doesn't apply because we are not talking about Jews in Italy, so we are left with 2., and I already said that the size of nudist areas should be in proportion to the number of nudists in society (so not "densely populated") and they should be decent and accessible places (so not "slums"). Your whole claim that nudists are ghettoized is ludicrous!

I still maintain people with Stu's debilitating condition are much more of a minority than naturists, with the middle ground being the preserve of the majority of people who aren't at all bothered about nudity, but I'm sure he will attempt to tell you otherwise.Even if that were true, I would argue that there are still far more people who are likely to be unhappy or offended by public nudity than there are people who either want to practise it or who actually want to see it. I have even had a dialogue with active nudists on here who say that, while they enjoy nudist beaches and clubs etc, they don't want public nudity to be the norm!

Stu

[Pete Knight]

The modern definition of Ghetto is markedly different to its original meaning, the word means foundry in Italian, the area of Venice where Jews congregated was a foundry, are we to accept the original Italian or the modern interpretation.

Websters online dictionary:
1: a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
2: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
3 a: an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto> b: a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity <the pink-collar ghetto>

Number 2. is the interpretation commonly used, and the term that I use when referring to the confinement of naturists under pressure, whether social or legal.



Stu thinks he can win an argument by mocking his opponents, the reality is that he alienates himself yet further from the very people this forum was created for.

A man in denial of his own problem seeks to make is problem ours by demanding that we conform to his requirements.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Pete

Websters online dictionary:

Just for your information, Websters is authoritative in American English and, as you I are Brits, the OED is the preferred reference. Nevertheless:

2: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
<the pink-collar="">
Number 2. is the interpretation commonly used, and the term that I use when referring to the confinement of naturists under pressure, whether social or legal.</the>

Nudists do not have to LIVE in a particular QUARTER OF A CITY, so even that definition does not reflect their situation and so the term ghetto does not apply. I'm not mocking you, Pete, but you are an intelligent person and you must, by now, have realised that the term ghetto does not apply to nudists in the literal sense. Of course, you can use the term as a metaphor, but if you do then you must be clear that's how you are using it.

I have been coming here for long enough to know that nudists have some beautiful places that could not, by any stretch of the imagination, warrant being called "ghettos". The problem is that you simply don't have enough of these.

Stu

[MoonShadow]

Correction - Websters is one dictionary source. It is not the American's exclusive reference choice. Others are, in addition to Websters, the American Heritage Dictionary, Cambridge Dictionaries, the New Oxford-American Dictionary, and the American-British dictionary.

[barenaked1]

Perhaps it's time to turn on the 'ignore Stu'. I come here to hopefully gain as opposed to lose ground when it comes to promoting nudism. As far as I'm concerned, Stu just wants us 'in our place', which as far as I am personally concerned is as much discrimination as to what other minorities have endured.

Stu, you need not comment to me, as I now will ignore any of your misinformed, selfish rants.

The modern definition of Ghetto is markedly different to its original meaning, the word means foundry in Italian, the area of Venice where Jews congregated was a foundry, are we to accept the original Italian or the modern interpretation.

Websters online dictionary:
1: a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
2: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
3 a: an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto> b: a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity <the pink-collar ghetto>

Number 2. is the interpretation commonly used, and the term that I use when referring to the confinement of naturists under pressure, whether social or legal.



Stu thinks he can win an argument by mocking his opponents, the reality is that he alienates himself yet further from the very people this forum was created for.

A man in denial of his own problem seeks to make is problem ours by demanding that we conform to his requirements.

Pete Knight

[jennan32za]

Jennan

I enjoy the discussion and debate here and I have even made some friends here with whom I correspond privately, either by PM or email.

Um... discussion and debate about what? Surely there are plenty of other sites where you might find better discussion around the subjects which interest you. I susbscribed to a now-defunct guitar forum to discuss music and being in a band, I belong to several pop-culture boards to discuss items of that nature, I have membership on a forum related to my field of expertise career-wise... no offence to anyone here, but I find those other boards usually better for discussions of that nature because the people there all feel passionate about those topics in particular, to a point where they have gathered at that place to discuss those topics specifically.

People are here for discussions about something else entirely, and it's something you have categorically stated you have absolutely no truck with. Perhaps I'm being pig-headed here, but I really can't see what you get out of all this.

I'm not looking for a fight; I'm just genuinely puzzled by this.
-d-

[Pete Knight]

Um... discussion and debate about what? Surely there are plenty of other sites where you might find better discussion around the subjects which interest you. I susbscribed to a now-defunct guitar forum to discuss music and being in a band, I belong to several pop-culture boards to discuss items of that nature, I have membership on a forum related to my field of expertise career-wise... no offence to anyone here, but I find those other boards usually better for discussions of that nature because the people there all feel passionate about those topics in particular, to a point where they have gathered at that place to discuss those topics specifically.

People are here for discussions about something else entirely, and it's something you have categorically stated you have absolutely no truck with. Perhaps I'm being pig-headed here, but I really can't see what you get out of all this.

I'm not looking for a fight; I'm just genuinely puzzled by this.
-d-
Stu could start his own forum for the promotion of anti-nudity and to discuss issues with like minded prudes....... but he would be very lonely!

I very much doubt that Stu could raise a group to counter the numerous naturists groups that exist, so many that even I have to be selective about which ones I join.

At least Stu won't be able to get into Skinbook, the new joining criteria would put him off. :laugh:

Pete Knight

[walter05]

Stu has admitted he now works out and goes to a locker room. He regularly sees naked men. He no longer freeks out over it.

Stu may be growing slowly.

If these forums only exist to enable us to talk to people we agree with, they are of limited use.

[MoonShadow]

Yes, he goes to a gym and uses the locker room which has individual shower stalls and changing cubicles. His growth is very slight with this type of shower environment.

For those of us who have been here for a while, we see the round-and-round litany Stu posts. It's the same messages over and over. I mean, how many more times do we have to hear the same messages?

I speak no ill-will for Stu, but he just doesn't belong here no matter how he enjoys "debate" (hearing the same responses over and over is not debate to most of us). He loves to throw his anti-ness in our faces and does so over and over.

He is like a broken record, going around and around. Like a recording. He whirs!

[Stu2630]

Walter

Stu has admitted he now works out and goes to a locker room. He regularly sees naked men. He no longer freeks out over it.You are right, MoonShadow is wrong. The gym where I work out still has a communal shower area and changing area, so I see naked men in there two or three times a week and I even chat to them! I couldn't have done anything like that five years ago and it's the influence of people like you and Sanslines here that have encouraged me. Thank you.

It's true that, later this year, these changing rooms are going to be altered and they will, thereafter, contain individual shower and changing cubicles, but that hasn't happened in the gym part of the centre yet.

BTW - I got the result of my PSA test today; it was 4.4 and my doctor has said he doesn't want to see me but does want me to have anothe test in 3-months.

Stu

[MoonShadow]

Walter

You are right, MoonShadow is wrong. The gym where I work out still has a communal shower area and changing area, so I see naked men in there two or three times a week and I even chat to them! I couldn't have done anything like that five years ago and it's the influence of people like you and Sanslines here that have encouraged me. Thank you.

It's true that, later this year, these changing rooms are going to be altered and they will, thereafter, contain individual shower and changing cubicles, but that hasn't happened in the gym part of the centre yet.

BTW - I got the result of my PSA test today; it was 4.4 and my doctor has said he doesn't want to see me but does want me to have anothe test in 3-months.

Stu

Not yet, but you are going to have the individual showers and changing stalls as you have mentioned several times in your posts that this is what was encouraged; so, for right now, I was wrong, but I am right as to what your gym will have.

[Stu2630]

MoonShadow

Yes, you were right about what my gym will have, but that doesn't change the fact that I do see, and talk to, naked men in the changing rooms and I have done so for the past couple of years. Can't you even give me credit for that?

Stu

[Pete Knight]

Not yet, but you are going to have the individual showers and changing stalls as you have mentioned several times in your posts that this is what was encouraged; so, for right now, I was wrong, but I am right as to what your gym will have.
And who was instrumental in bringing the change? Where as real people can cope with communal changing rooms, someone has pushed unnecessary cost and change on others.

Ultimately you were right Moonshadow, our friend was playing his semantics game yet again.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

And who was instrumental in bringing the change? Where as real people can cope with communal changing rooms, someone has pushed unnecessary cost and change on others.

Me - and several other members of the User's Management Committee - and our view was supported by the directors of the company that owns the facility. We (not just me) considered it a beneficial change and we have been supported by many users. The individual cubicle systems have already been successfully introduced in our swimming area, spa and dry sports changing facilities and they have proved to be very popular. The fitness and weights changing/showers is the last part of the work and will hopefully be completed by early May.

I have made no secret of the fact that I still prefer not to be around nudity, but that doesn't change the fact that, as I said, "I do see, and talk to, naked men in the changing rooms and I have done so for the past couple of years". Again, no credit for that from some quarters in here.

Stu

[David77]

you might find better discussion around the subjects which interest you.

I do not know, but I suspect that Stu may find the subject of the nude human body to be very interesting; an interest fostered by the phenomenon of his nude body in childhood. I suspect that this phenomenom caused the original strong negative emotional reaction to the nude form. However, it seems that he welcomes progress in his riddence of severity of reaction to seeing the nude males in the shower, at least.

It seems that some nudists are almost obsessed with being nude, but in any case, we can each try to figure out why we so favor nudity - other than "it feels good, and free" , and let Stu figure out why he likes a nudist forum other than "to debate".

Stu does not object to nudist, but does not want them visable where he or others can see them and become upset (like he has become upset in the past?)

However, I may be entirely wrong in some, or all, of the above assumtions or guesses.

[walter05]

It sounds like your growth is short lived and temporary.

Any possibility that you will have another step?

[Stu2630]

David

I am a member of several debating forums which have a range of topics very different from nudism. I do find the subject of nudism fascinating, probably because of the natural conflict between pure logic on the one hand, and culturally conditioned human emotion on the other. So nudism appeals to my intellect, even though I actually dislike nudity.

I genuinely respect responsible and considerate nudism, but I do have a problem with the idea that some nudists seem to have a mission to "de-sensitize" the non-nudist population to the sight of nudity with an almost religious fervor. To me, that is as objectionable as textiles telling nudists that their nakedness is wicked and they should cease their practice. The whole concept of 'live and let live' must entail respect by textiles for nudism, but also a corresponding respect by nudists for textilism.

Walter

It sounds like your growth is short lived and temporary.

It's certainly not temporary. I'll never again have the same issues at going into a men's changing room or shower area again as I had a few years ago.

Any possibility that you will have another step?

I'd be open to that if the situation arose, yes. I'm not sure I'd be inclined to engineer such a situation, though. If you have any ideas, I'll certainly consider them.

Stu

[walter05]

How about changing at your locker. You could even do it with your back to the other men. Just expose your bum.

[Stu2630]

I'll think about that one, Walter.

Anyway, I flew to London and had my virtual cysto today and, so far as they can tell, I'm all clear. The urologist did spot my urethra was abnormally short and also a bit of narrowing of at one point, which puzzled him. He also said there seemed to be some scarring in my bladder which he couldn't account for, and when he "palpated" (pressed) me at the exact spot, I was tender. He said it wouldn't hurt to mention it to my GP and ask him to keep an eye on that. But, he said, there is no sign of a "mass or lesion" that he could see, and that would have been the main concern. So I'm clear. Phew! :)

Stu

[Sanslines]

I'll think about that one, Walter.

Anyway, I flew to London and had my virtual cysto today and, so far as they can tell, I'm all clear. The urologist did spot my urethra was abnormally short and also a bit of narrowing of at one point, which puzzled him. He also said there seemed to be some scarring in my bladder which he couldn't account for, and when he "palpated" (pressed) me at the exact spot, I was tender. He said it wouldn't hurt to mention it to my GP and ask him to keep an eye on that. But, he said, there is no sign of a "mass or lesion" that he could see, and that would have been the main concern. So I'm clear. Phew! :)

Stu

I would not be surprised if your GP asks you to again undergo a traditional cystoscopy in order to examine the actual bladder scarring. Such results can not be achieved with virtual cystoscopy. No doubt you will decline and continue to take your chances with hit or miss treatements based upon physicians who are prohibited by you from gathering the direct information that they absolutely need. Their diagnosis will now be based upon partial information and best guess techniques. This is hardly the proper way to diagnose medical problems. If I was a physician, I would certainly insist upon a traditional cystoscopy at this point, and if such a procedure was declined by the patient, then I would have the patient sign a legal liabilty waver and then dismiss the patient from my care.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

I told you I would report back honestly, and I have.

The clinic have faxed my GP the findings of the virtual cysto and I am seeing him on Friday in any case (about another matter). So let's see what he says.

If I was a physician, I would certainly insist upon a traditional cystoscopy at this point, and if such a procedure was declined by the patient, then I would have the patient sign a legal liabilty waver and then dismiss the patient from my care.

He is an NHS physician and they can't do that here in the UK. Doctors here have an obligation to respect patients' wishes even if they are contrary to the advice given. And that's how it should be. If a Jehovah's witness decides he won't have a transplant or a blood transfusion, his doctors won't refuse to offer any medical care whatsoever after that because they have a duty to continue care.

I don't know whether my GP would "insist" upon a traditional cystoscopy but I doubt he would even mention it because he will have been informed by the hospital that I'm not prepared to have one. The point is that the virtual cysto has confirmed that I don't have anything life-threatening and that's what is really important.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines

I told you I would report back honestly, and I have.

The clinic have faxed my GP the findings of the virtual cysto and I am seeing him on Friday in any case (about another matter). So let's see what he says.



He is an NHS physician and they can't do that here in the UK. Doctors here have an obligation to respect patients' wishes even if they are contrary to the advice given. And that's how it should be. If a Jehovah's witness decides he won't have a transplant or a blood transfusion, his doctors won't refuse to offer any medical care whatsoever after that because they have a duty to continue care.

I don't know whether my GP would "insist" upon a traditional cystoscopy but I doubt he would even mention it because he will have been informed by the hospital that I'm not prepared to have one. The point is that the virtual cysto has confirmed that I don't have anything life-threatening and that's what is really important.

Stu

Here if the patient is unwilling to allow the doctor to properly treat his or her illness, then there is nothing more that a doctor can do. Better to get rid of the troublesome patient then continue to waste valuable time, energy, and resources on such a patient when there are so many patients who are so desperate to get well.

As for life threatening illness, the virtual cystoscopy has ruled out a few things but is by no means a complete and proper examination. For example, cancer in it's early stages can be detected by a traditional cystoscopy by missed by a virtual cystoscopy until it is too late!

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

The urologist told me that the detection rate for virtual cystoscopy was between 90% and 95%. He said that it may miss certain very small, flat lesions which were at a very early stage, so it was recommended that I go back for another VC in April, which I will. So long as I do that, and the symptoms (like blood in the urine) have ceased, then the chances of me having bladder cancer are extremely low.

We'll see what the GP says on Friday.

Stu

[walter05]

First of all, doctors don't have police powers in the U.S. either. They can't force you to do anything.

When my wife was undergoing cancer treatment, we wanted to use nutritional support. When the doctor said he would not agree. We told him unless he was willing to review the recommendations and talk to the nutritionist first, we would get another doctor. The doctor agreed.

(He then agreed that this nutritionist is good. Since, he has a daily morning consultation with this nutritionist for all of his patients.)

My point is that I always believe that the patient owns the body and the patient is the ultimate boss. The law in the U.S. agrees and this is why patients sign that the consent to treatments.

If there was scarring on the bladder, I would actually be against the invasive inspection. I would be afraid of an error leading to further injury. Under the circumstances, my gut is that with what you know now, waiting until April seems reasonable.

In the meantime, that means assuming that there is no more blood in your urine, pain, etc.

However, there is the possible problem of an infection. If that is not ruled out then sex with your wife could put her at risk. The considerate, loving thing to do is for you to ask your doctor if there is a risk of that and if so how to protect your wife.

In the meantime, I want to again suggest my idea for how you could take another step.

In the locker room of your gym, change at your locker rather than the shower. You can stand with your back to the others if you want. You could even wrap with a towel until you are ready. But when ready, take it off and put on your under pants with you bare bum visible for a moment.

It is a small step but one you might find helpful.

I am not attempting to turn you into a nudist. I just don't want you to have a morbid fear of your naked body being seen.

Walter

[David77]

My point is that I always believe that the patient owns the body and the patient is the ultimate boss. The law in the U.S. agrees and this is why patients sign that the consent to treatments.

We are also permitted to have a copy of the medical reports, so I get a photo copy of each and keep them in three-ring notebooks.

[Stu2630]

Walter

Yesterday morning, I spoke to my GP and he said that there is now little point in having a real cystoscopy, but he strongly urged me to have the follow up virtual cysto in three months, just to be on the safe side. I will, of course, but most of my symptoms have now gone away so the worry is over so far as I am concerned.

In the locker room of your gym, change at your locker rather than the shower. You can stand with your back to the others if you want. You could even wrap with a towel until you are ready. But when ready, take it off and put on your under pants with you bare bum visible for a moment.

I pretty much did that this morning: my backside would have been visible for a fraction of a second to any of the guys who may have been looking my way. I didn't like it and wasn't comfortable with it but I did it: I felt very vulnerable and (strangely!) a bit "grubby" for a while afterward. It wasn't a nice feeling. I will do that again at some point, but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

David

Here in the UK, you have a statutory right to see your medical records but it's a right few people seem to exercise.

Stu

[Boreas]

Walter

Yesterday morning, I spoke to my GP and he said that there is now little point in having a real cystoscopy, but he strongly urged me to have the follow up virtual cysto in three months, just to be on the safe side. I will, of course, but most of my symptoms have now gone away so the worry is over so far as I am concerned.



I pretty much did that this morning: my backside would have been visible for a fraction of a second to any of the guys who may have been looking my way. I didn't like it and wasn't comfortable with it but I did it: I felt very vulnerable and (strangely!) a bit "grubby" for a while afterward. It wasn't a nice feeling. I will do that again at some point, but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

David

Here in the UK, you have a statutory right to see your medical records but it's a right few people seem to exercise.

Stu

Stu, I am glad things are working out for you with your health. Do keep an eye on things and don't let them get out of hand if any symptoms return.

It is very interesting that you had those feelings when you exposed your butt. They might be something to ponder. Given your medical background, I am not surprised. People do work through those types of feelings quite successfully when they address whatever comes up.

Medical records in Canada are also the property of the patient. I have had a couple of x-rays and a CT scan. I just asked the doc for a copy, and he went and photocopied them for me right there.

[walter05]

Don't force it. Slow is fine. I am proud of you for trying.

Walter

[Stu2630]

Boreas

I am glad things are working out for you with your health

Thanks for that. So am I - PHEW! :) I will keep my next appointment, though


It is very interesting that you had those feelings when you exposed your butt.

Yes, the fear and vulnerability was to be expected, but I had a feeling afterwards that I had done something quite sleazy. Don't know where that feeling came from.

Walter

Thanks! ;)

Stu

[walter05]

I think there could be a few sources.

First, you have such a morbid fear of nudity that in your mind, you were making a point of putting your buttocks on display. In reality, you were just not covering them where it was not normal to do so.

Second, you have a lot of issues with what is in your underpants, I would expect some conflicted feelings.

However, men's locker rooms are designed for men to change. It is expected and normal that buttocks and even genitals will be exposed. There was nothing wrong with what you did.

Morbid covering them when it is normal to have them covered treats your buttocks as dirty and that is wrong.

[Boreas]

Yes, the fear and vulnerability was to be expected, but I had a feeling afterwards that I had done something quite sleazy. Don't know where that feeling came from.

If you ponder and meditate on that one, you will find the answer. You may even realize where your issues with nudity came from, and be able to change them.

[Old Hippie]

Walter

Yesterday morning, I spoke to my GP and he said that there is now little point in having a real cystoscopy, but he strongly urged me to have the follow up virtual cysto in three months, just to be on the safe side. I will, of course, but most of my symptoms have now gone away so the worry is over so far as I am concerned.

Stu

Stu -
It matters naught to me whether you change your attitude toward social nudity; that's a deliberate decision in most cases.
But I would strongly advise you to keep a close watch on your urogenital tract. The mere fact that symptoms have (for now) abated is no assurance of a 'clean bill of health'. Several years ago, I reported symptoms to my GP which were not correctly interpreted. Those symptoms disappeared for a while, then returned. By the time I did have a cystoscopy performed, the tumor in my bladder was so far developed that it was necessary to remove the bladder, along with much tissue surrounding it. I can assure you that the surgery involved there was far more invasive than having your genitalia exposed to view. Oh yes, and the years of managing an external urostomy pouch have been a major inconvenience!
By the way, during my cystoscopy, I was under sedation, and was never aware of anyone seeing or handling my body; that may be faint reassurance to you , or maybe more, but that is the fact.
PLEASE, for your health, get a thorough exam by whatever means necessary, and leave as little to the vagaries of chance as you can.

[geoguygal]

Back in the mid-80's I suffered from slow urine flow. I was only 18 at the time and awkward in every way imaginable. Long story short, I had a few cystoscopes and two inpatient stays to correct the problem. All of the things I dealt with have been already mentioned in this thread (female professionals being involved, shame, wondering "why me?", more shame, etc). However I survived and am glad I got the problem corrected (scar tissue in the urinary tract). Who knew that years later I would enjoy social nudity together with my wife?

Talking to the urologist about my feelings regarding the cystoscopy and everything related to it was very helpful. He understood and made efforts to accommodate my needs when possible.

Just wanted to share my experience with you and everyone else reading this subject.

[Stu2630]

Old Hippie and geoguygal

Thanks for your input on this. It's always interesting and informative to read about others' experiences. I'm due to have a second virtual cystoscopy in April and, if that's OK and there is no blood in my urine, then I'm told I'm in the clear.

Oh, and the "external urostomy pouch" sounds hideous!!! :(

Stu