Nudity vs. violence on American TV

[simonsebs]

I know it's been discussed numerous times on the board about the fact that violence is more accepted on tv than nudity. Now I just think it is starting to get out of hand.

Yesterday I was watching Casino with Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci. The thing is this was shown in the middle of the day when kids could be watching. I remember from watching the uncensored version there was a scene with a woman undressing, however that was edited out. Yet it was alright to show a man being stabbed in the neck with a pen, a man's head crushed in a vice, numerous people being shot, and guys being beaten with baseball bats.

Now there are numerous other examples of nudity being censored and almost graphic violence being left on network tv and this post would be several pages long listing them all. The question for me is what is it about American culture that lets us be blase and desensitized to violence, yet the slightest bit of nudity causes hysteria?

[Pete Knight]

I know it's been discussed numerous times on the board about the fact that violence is more accepted on tv than nudity. Now I just think it is starting to get out of hand.

Yesterday I was watching Casino with Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci. The thing is this was shown in the middle of the day when kids could be watching. I remember from watching the uncensored version there was a scene with a woman undressing, however that was edited out. Yet it was alright to show a man being stabbed in the neck with a pen, a man's head crushed in a vice, numerous people being shot, and guys being beaten with baseball bats.

Now there are numerous other examples of nudity being censored and almost graphic violence being left on network tv and this post would be several pages long listing them all. The question for me is what is it about American culture that lets us be blase and desensitized to violence, yet the slightest bit of nudity causes hysteria?
Watching from this side of the big puddle, the American perspective seems to be all back to front and upside down. All hell breaks loose when a nipple slips out in LA, and the saga rattles on for years. Yet when a school student takes a gun into school and shoots up the place it quickly gets forgotten, until the next one.

Tell me I'm wrong, but is violence more acceptable than an exposed nipple?

That said we here in the UK are witnessing a growing trend in violent incidents among teenagers, we used to have the odd scrap when I was that age, but we would never have considered using a knife, and every self respecting kid had a woodsman's knife where I lived.

Pete Knight

[DenitaLC]

Watching from this side of the big puddle, the American perspective seems to be all back to front and upside down. All hell breaks loose when a nipple slips out in LA, and the saga rattles on for years. Yet when a school student takes a gun into school and shoots up the place it quickly gets forgotten, until the next one.

"Tell me I'm wrong, but is violence more acceptable than an exposed nipple?"

That said we here in the UK are witnessing a growing trend in violent incidents among teenagers, we used to have the odd scrap when I was that age, but we would never have considered using a knife, and every self respecting kid had a woodsman's knife where I lived.

Pete Knight

Completely correct Pete, and THAT is what is so wrong with society today! (At least here in the USA, IMO!) Nudity does not cause hurt, violence does......simple as that to me.

[Eternity]

TV is a mirror of its culture and to me it seems like this US view on violence and nudity on TV is only gaining in popularity in the western world.

[Lord Drakkus]

I would have to say that it's not "more acceptable" per se, but that we've just become desensitized to it.

Much of the US was founded on violence. We beat the indigenous people into submission, fought with ourselves when we ran out of them. We spend more money on weapons research than we do medical research. Even during "peace" time, we spend more money on keeping and training our soldiers than we do helping countries in need (including ours).

Violence has been a part of American Culture since the very beginning of America. Nudity, has not. While I greatly disagree with the fact that somebody getting viciously murdered will only get you a TV-PG rating, but any nudity at all gives you an M, it's just how american society is.

Changing that is going to be extremely difficult, and we're going to have to tackle it from many different angles in order to change it, and that's if we even can. It's an uphill battle for sure, but I'm willing to fight it.

[Mutant]

It's a joke, really. We worship power, and violence on TV and in the movies pays tribute to that power. Bloody shootouts and decapitations and all of that "toughen us up." Naked parts and such make us feel uncomfortable. We all pretend to be offended over anything related to nudity or sexuality, because we Americans love to act all offended and upset and outraged so that our neighbors will think we are decent, moral human beings.

Well I saw some kid walking down the street today with his underwear hanging out! Can you believe it?!

[Zorro]

But, but, but... we can't corrupt our youth! If they see nudity on TV, they're going to want to have sex! The evil naked human body must be censored at all costs!!!

But, it's OK to see violence, rape, murder, drugs and so on... go figure.

[Pete Knight]

Violence has been a part of American Culture since the very beginning of America. Nudity, has not. While I greatly disagree with the fact that somebody getting viciously murdered will only get you a TV-PG rating, but any nudity at all gives you an M, it's just how american society is.
Accepting violence as part of culture is one thing, but glorifying it in movies and video games is something else.

Changing that is going to be extremely difficult, and we're going to have to tackle it from many different angles in order to change it, and that's if we even can. It's an uphill battle for sure, but I'm willing to fight it.
Start by using the FCC and other similar bodies to regulate what can be shown, as is the case with sex scenes. Over here there are controls over levels of violence, not enough for my liking, the TV programmes still glorify violence even when they are trying to send a public message that violence is wrong. Teenagers don't see the jail sentence, they see gang culture and the live to the perception, as portrayed on cop shows over here. Anyone see 'The Bill' over there?

Pete Knight

[MoonShadow]

Oh, do we, as a species, have to evolve a lot more.

Great responses on this topic. So true, so true....but we are still in a primitive state as a species; maybe there is hope for us. :D

[Lord Drakkus]

Accepting violence as part of culture is one thing, but glorifying it in movies and video games is something else.

Start by using the FCC and other similar bodies to regulate what can be shown, as is the case with sex scenes. Over here there are controls over levels of violence, not enough for my liking, the TV programmes still glorify violence even when they are trying to send a public message that violence is wrong. Teenagers don't see the jail sentence, they see gang culture and the live to the perception, as portrayed on cop shows over here. Anyone see 'The Bill' over there?

Pete Knight

I mostly agree with you there, but I don't think going through the FCC is really the best way. We should also get with the "ratings bureaus" and try and set stricter ratings for violence, as well as getting them lowered for nudity. I would think that raising the ratings for violence would be the easiest, but we need to go with just one at a time.

[james423]

There was an interesting poll taken a while back, which included topics regarding the subject of Nudity v. Violence on TV. The poll (which was anonymous) showed that about 70% of respondents said that violence on TV bothered them more than nudity, but that about 65% of respondents thought that more people would be bothered by nudity than by violence. The perception is that more people are bothered by nudity, but even some of the prudish people that I know personally think that it's disturbing that while nudity on TV is often pixellated if it's shown at all, very graphic violence is shown with no such censoring.

[Fitz1980]

Lots of parents have more of a problem with nudity that they equate with sex than with violence. One argument I've heard from that one is that they aren't worried about their kid shooting someone with a machine gun or blowing stuff up but everyone's got the equipment for sex and they don't want their kids using that. It's a totally ridiculous argument and repression of the human body actually leads to more sexuality and fetishism.

I used to work at a movie theater and we did have a few families walk out of Titanic during the scene where we see Kate Winslet's breasts when she is modeling for a nude drawing. They though that it was OK to bring their kids to a movie about 1,500 people dying in a disaster but the boobage was too much. They also knew it was a love story and would presumably feature a scene where the happy couple is getting hot and heavy in a bed together, which would have been fine as long as only her bare back was shown but her nipples were just too much for them to handle.

You'd also have times when parents would bring their kids into a horror movie (and I love horror movies so I'm not dogging them out or anything) and than the biggest thing they were worried about is if there were any naked ladies in the movie, or they would cover their kids eyes when a woman strips down for the obligatory skinny dipping scene but had no problem with the kid seeing the guttings and impalings.

[WmAC]

I think NYPD Blue was the first TV show to do the nude thing here.

This country was founded by Puritans, and after damn near 400 years, a lot of the Puritan values still exist, and a few even have a tight hold.

Some states can't sell liquor on a Sunday.

[Pete Knight]

I think NYPD Blue was the first TV show to do the nude thing here.

This country was founded by Puritans, and after damn near 400 years, a lot of the Puritan values still exist, and a few even have a tight hold.

Some states can't sell liquor on a Sunday.

How do we explain the puritan streak in Australia then? I got caught out in Cairns on a public holiday, I fancied a beer and off I trotted to the nearest pub, it was closed! Curious I thought to myself, so off I trotted again and found a place open, but they would only serve a beer if I ordered food, and I'd already eaten. Apparently pubs can't open, unless they serve food, on a public holiday, which seemed odd to me as back in blighty that is the busiest time in our pubs.

Queensland also has the dubious distinction of being the only state or territory that doesn't have a nudist beach (Apart from Tassie, and ACT.), and Qld is Australia's sunshine state, talk about missed opportunity!

Pete Knight

[simonsebs]

I saw something earlier today and yesterday that made me think about this topic again. While watching the movie Woodstock I saw how they blurred out all the nudity. Also I think the following number was cut from TV completely.

John Sebastian - Younger Generation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qTAy5RU_m4)

Even though there was no violence to speak of in this movie, things that I would be more hesitant to show were left in. Particularly the following clip.

Arlo Guthrie - Coming Into Los Angeles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsnUu71Viyo)

I would think people who always say "what about the children" when it comes to nudity, would be more upset with their kids seeing people smoking pot than a naked body.

[FoUTASportscaster]

After reading this thread, I was reminded of a South Park episode. The boys buy weapons at the county fair and while playing with them, one gets a ninja throwing star in the eye. They go back to the fair to return the weapons and in the process one of the boys gets naked. At the same time, everyone in the fair sees the kid naked and the one with a star in his eye. The whole town is in revolt and there is a big town hall meeting with irate townspeople. Turns out, everyone was upset that they saw a kid's penis, but no one cared about the one with a ninja star in his eye.

[txvic]

I wish I knew the answer to the nudity vs. violence question. Some people are absolutely freaked out about nudity but apparently have no problem at all with exposing themselves and their children to violence. No matter what arguments they have against simple nudity, we as nudist know they are unjustified. I didn't see it mentioned in this thread but it is not exactly unheard of to turn on the TV during any part of the day and see some pretty steamy love scenes going on. Everyone know what is going on. You just don't see anything. But somehow our children are protected.... I don't get it.

[txvic]

it seems like Southpark hit the nail on the head.

[walter05]

We bought the Victory at Sea series from the 50s. There are scenes in there with naked buttocks and even frontal male nudity. Apparently, despite the censors, people were astute enough to understand there as no threat.

As a parent, the violence is a problem.

As a parent, the foul language is a problem.

As a parent, the shows where the parents are dumb and the kids are cool is a problem.

The titillating near nudity is a problem.

I have no problem with my kids seeing nudity or being seen nude.

There are a lot of ways to be perverted and many of them are with clothes on.

[SilverBlade]

After reading this thread..I totally agree that the American/Canadian society is so backwards thinking, and I've thought like this for many many years.

It's no wonder that the world is more violent today than a decade ago. The kids growing up are seeing that violence is ok, and are being desensitized to the trauma of it after watching it on TV for years and years.

Yet, nudity is still a big "no no".

Completely backwards. Has a bare nipple ever harmed anyone? Has seeing a topless woman on screen ever scarred someone? Not that I can think of.

[nimrod]

Has a bare nipple ever harmed anyone?

Have you ever been poked in the eye by one of those things, they are highly dangerous.

[FoUTASportscaster]

While this isn't TV related, I was reading movi reviews in the paper today.

Taking Woodstock
Rated R for graphic nudity, some sexual content, drug use and language
Taking Woodstock follows the lives of Elliot Tiber and his family, who played a major role in making of the famous Woodstock Music and Arts Festival a reality. While the premise is about the festival, the film cosely exmines the drama in the Tiber family.

Fighting
Rated PG-13 for intense fight sequences, some sexuality and brief strong language
Shawn MacArthur (Channing Tatum) is struggling to survive on the New York City streets. After witnessing MacArthur fight, scam artist Harvey Boarden (Terrance Howard) introduces MacArthur to the city's underground street fighting world. MacArthur's fists give him everything he's wanted, but his continued involvement brings him deeper into a corrupted world.

I just shook my head after reading these in this exact sequence.

[EricS]

Every time I watch CSI it reminds me of this topic. I'm not bashing the show, but it is incredibly violent. Slow motion shots of people being killed. Bodies at the morgue with half the head missing, ribs spread open and organs being removed. Ironically, if there was a nipple or butt visible there would be public outrage and a possible fine. Weird.

[hommenudist]

I watched a few of the CSI shows the initial season. I had to abandon that show. I loved the science techniques but constantly watching in slow motion the graphic demise of another human being through violence was just too sickening. I do not know if I am getting too old or what; but I have a dvd of the Godfather and I just cannot bring my self to watch it. I saw it when it premiered and two or three times afterwards, I had read the book three times before the move was initially released; but now such violence and evil gets under my skin (excuse the slight pun). I am watching more PBS shows now and leaving the violent ones alone. I do however still enjoy murder mysteries but I watch the ones that do not display the violence for the "come on". I watch things such as the "Midsommer murders", "Hercule Peroit" series, "Miss Marple", "inspector Lynly". I know I know it is still murder but they do not try to outdo the competition to make it as graphic as CSI.

[Naturist Mark]

The good thing about CSI (at least the original one) is that it doesn't have gratuitous violence.

The violence it shows is never an applause line. And it ALWAYS has consequences. It is not the cartoon violence that is the staple of most of Hollywood's product.

[MoonShadow]

I love CSI! It is about foresencis and law and order. Yes, it is about violence but being TV, the crime lab folks along with law enforcement always get their man (or woman). It is today's version of the good guys and bad guys. Wish all cases could be solved as they are on TV.

There is worse violence in the movies. Horror shows are on my top list of the most graphic and most violent. Next to them comes the hard-core ex-SEAL or CIA/Special Ops types who blister through with violent killings.

TV violence is "mild" compared to many movies available. And the good thing about TV and DVD's is the off button.

[LamontCranston]

I love CSI! It is about foresencis and law and order. CSI lost me a while ago. I think the writing has tanked. There was an episode where a fellow was supposed to have found his 4-year old daughter accidently poisoned so he takes her on a bus (!?) to the hospital but she dies, so he gets off the bus and puts her body in a box in an empty lot... (!?!?)

Then after a year of not watching I tuned in a week or so ago and they had a girl who thought she was being followed on a busy city street run down some stairs into a deserted alley to get away... but she tripped (twice!?) and the killer caught up.

Campy, formulaic and full of cliches.

Back on topic though... I really don't understand why Hollywood puts out the violence and sexual dialogue they do but zero nudity.

Incidental nudity while changing clothes, getting up in the morning, hanging out in a hot tub, getting into or out of a shower, locker rooms.. all these things are natural and extend the lives of the characters and allow the viewing audience to identify with them. Blood spatter on a wall from 15 thrusts of a knife or seeing a set of murder photos on a table or a beaten and bloody body while the police characters spin out sexual violence dialogue does what exactly? Shock? Numb?

I'm certainly not entertained.

[Eternity]

It's especially sad that US TV has such a weird way of handling violence and nudity because it's the biggest TV program exporter in the world! This distorted view on things now seems to be getting a global phenomena.

[Redtan]

We are fortunate in Canada that we get French programming as well where nudity is no big deal (Radio Canada). It also lets me work on my sometimes questionable French... like occasionally I'll be wondering why they are talking about going to the beach when they are actually planning a bank heist :rolleyes:

[Agde]

You'd think by now American TV would have explored all the ways to kill people and explode things. You'd think with all their special interest offerings and demographic prowess, not to mention their reality show expertise, American producers would be quick into new markets. So where is the Skinnydipping Channel?

[maliakei]

CSI lost me a while ago. I think the writing has tanked. There was an episode where a fellow was supposed to have found his 4-year old daughter accidently poisoned so he takes her on a bus (!?) to the hospital but she dies, so he gets off the bus and puts her body in a box in an empty lot... (!?!?)

Then after a year of not watching I tuned in a week or so ago and they had a girl who thought she was being followed on a busy city street run down some stairs into a deserted alley to get away... but she tripped (twice!?) and the killer caught up.

Campy, formulaic and full of cliches.

Back on topic though... I really don't understand why Hollywood puts out the violence and sexual dialogue they do but zero nudity.

Incidental nudity while changing clothes, getting up in the morning, hanging out in a hot tub, getting into or out of a shower, locker rooms.. all these things are natural and extend the lives of the characters and allow the viewing audience to identify with them. Blood spatter on a wall from 15 thrusts of a knife or seeing a set of murder photos on a table or a beaten and bloody body while the police characters spin out sexual violence dialogue does what exactly? Shock? Numb?

I'm certainly not entertained.

Good points! I've never watched CSI or other fictional crime dramas, rather true life forensic programs like Dr. G Medical Examiner or a few others. I learned alot by watching these programs, however, some of the procedures were censored, i.e. 'Y' incisions, the actual autopsy. This may also be due to family privacy perhaps. I believe the difference between the two are purely for entertainment vs. educational viewing.

[LamontCranston]

Good points! I've never watched CSI or other fictional crime dramas, rather true life forensic programs like Dr. G Medical Examiner or a few others. I learned alot by watching these programs, however, some of the procedures were censored, i.e. 'Y' incisions, the actual autopsy. Yikes! I can't watch actual medical procedures. I'm too squeamish.

[simonsebs]

Right now I'm watching a movie that proves my point, the network premire of 300. For those of you who haven't seen the movie, it is very violent. What little nudity there is was censored out. However three decapitations, numerous impalements and stabbings are alright. I like this movie, but its still one of those that I don't think should be shown on network tv.

[Lord Drakkus]

The other night I watched about the first 1/2 hour of "Thirteen Ghosts." This is absolutely the most violent, gory, DISGUSTING movie I've seen in years! In the first 10 minutes, there are around 6 people killed in a variety of ways inside a car wrecking yard. People being folded in half, decapitated, bludgeoned and beaten to death...

The only thing that I saw that was removed (I'd seen it years ago, can't imagine now how I sat through the whole thing) was when one man was literally cut in half with a set of sliding glass doors. In the real movie, they show the 2 halfs of him peel away, but it was skipped when it was on Television. That's when I changed the channel...

The guy was being chased by the ghost of a woman who was raped and mutilated when murdered, and if I remember correctly her nipples were supposed to be visible, but those were blended out.

I couldn't help but ask why all of those other completely disgusting, disturbing parts were fine, but the nipples of a ghost couldn't be shown... A truly disturbing state of affairs, I must admit.

[Smiley]

I too watched the movie 300. No nudity but plenty of graphic violence, the more gory parts were in slo-mo! I'm not squeamish in the slightest but I thought the excessive closeups were almost disgusting. I realize that the story was based on historical happenings and they were brutal in those days. Still, it would have been more interesting in my opinion of more attention had been paid to what lead up to that battle.

Again in my own opinion, most nudity in movies or tv centers on sexual situations or leading to 'em. Casual nudity such as changing clothes, dressing, undressing or just plain sunbathing or skinny dipping as long as it's part of the story line probably wouldn't have the same shock value as the way most nudity is portrayed now. And shock value seems to be what's happening with both violence and nudity on the screen as well as the tube. Or am I seeing this whole thing wrong??

[Kouak]

Good points! I've never watched CSI or other fictional crime dramas, rather true life forensic programs like Dr. G Medical Examiner or a few others. I learned alot by watching these programs, however, some of the procedures were censored, i.e. 'Y' incisions, the actual autopsy. This may also be due to family privacy perhaps. I believe the difference between the two are purely for entertainment vs. educational viewing.

I think both of them offer about the same educational value. IMO, they both really exist for entertainment.

[minitim]

If the TV programmers think that violence attracts viewers more than nudity, they should listen to my experience in the early 1990s. flipping through the channels on Sunday morning, my brother and I stumbled across some modern dance program on A&E. Neither of us are into ballet or other dance, but we were SPELLBOUND by this odd program that looked like adults in an orphanage. Row upon row of stark steel bedframes and thin mattresses that dozens of men and later women were dancing around. New age music played, while the topless women and men went through synchronized movements in a very seductive and intriguing performance. Even though there was no total nudity, it was very stimulating, and we weren't the least bit shocked at the amount of skin shown.

Neither of us knew what we were watching, but neither said to change the channel. I think that if anything is done right, people will watch it on TV.

[minitim]

Completely backwards. Has a bare nipple ever harmed anyone? Has seeing a topless woman on screen ever scarred someone? Not that I can think of.
Ask Janet Jackson. It is over 5 years since her wardrobe malfunction, and her career has yet to recover. Justin Timberlake, who ripped off her top, has seen his career skyrocket. Is this because of the outrage and censorship that followed, or because she is "too old to rock and roll," (I think she is 43) or just that his records are better than hers now? We may never know for sure.

What I do know is that the Superbowl half time shows have been snoozefests ever since.

[Fitz1980]

Back on topic though... I really don't understand why Hollywood puts out the violence and sexual dialogue they do but zero nudity.

Incidental nudity while changing clothes, getting up in the morning, hanging out in a hot tub, getting into or out of a shower, locker rooms.. all these things are natural and extend the lives of the characters and allow the viewing audience to identify with them. Blood spatter on a wall from 15 thrusts of a knife or seeing a set of murder photos on a table or a beaten and bloody body while the police characters spin out sexual violence dialogue does what exactly? Shock? Numb?


The biggest reason is that violence can be explained away ("how else would you expect a war drama or a murder to happen") while nudity has spent so long being covered up and alluded to folks will say "why couldn't you just suggest it?" You know do bare backs and shoulders-up for the women and barechested men to show the audience that people are naked without actually showing those 4 square inches of flesh that freaks everyone out.

On the flip side (I think I've explained the same thing here before) some parents feel that violence is fantasy while nudity=sex. With violence, epically the kind of cartoonish stuff we often see, parents don't worry about their kids doing that because the odds of a kid picking up a gun to shoot people, setting off a bomb or slicing a person in half are about the same as their kid winning the lottery. It can happen, but it's so remote most folks don't even bother to plan for it.

On the flip side of that they feel that regarding sexuality the problem is that kids have all of the necessary gear and an innate desire to do it. Hence they aren't worried about their kids killing a bunch of folks, while they do worry about their kids having indiscriminate sex. The disconnect comes with textiles not understanding that their kids are more likely to get involved in childhood sex, anorexia and a host of other problems that come with the body being taboo. Heck I had a girlfriend who enjoyed being naked at Paradise Valley (GA) but also told me (after I extolled the virtues of nudism for children) "but if our kids end up pregnant it's your fault." Forget that nudist kids are less likely to end up pregnant all this girl could see was 'my future daughter walking around naked with others, must be promiscuous sex and pregnancy involved.' Fortunately I finally realized that she was not the girl for me and moved on to a better one.