Sex and hedonism will destroy the naturist lifestyle

[Willynillyuk]

The line between nudism and sex is blurred. All nudists bar a handful have a sexual side, otherwise we would have no kids between us. The question is separating the two nude elements.

I suppose it comes down to attitude. the naturists are far too tolerant whereas the swingers are selfish, ignorant and lacking in intelligence.

So let us back up that statement.

My own experience is that there are too many heterosexual couples who frame single males for the very obscenities they themselves carry out 24/7 and then have the gall to deliberately exaggerate the instances of child abuse to drive families out of the lifestyle; all this so they can corner our beaches for their own disgusting swinging parties.

Let us not forget recent reports of rampant orgies being carried out by swinging couples within yards of families and children on the main naturist beach at Cap d'Agde, to the point where the most angered naturists may be responsible for revenge arson attacks on the swingers' clubhouse.

This is what it has come to!

In recruiting for my family beach eventing project, as soon as I see the word "couple" it rings alarm bells. It should not be like that. Most childless couples, although not as altruistic and social as "parents", are perfectly good true naturists. But while the hedonists are partying on our lawns there will be mistrust.

Without the nudist beaches and clubs, there is no venue for the swingers. So why do they insist on cooking the goose that lays the golden egg? Once true naturist evaporates the only people sharing the beaches with this hedonist trash will be the police.

The swingers must go and fast! They have no conscience. Therefore to defend itself true naturism has to become equally single-minded and militant. There has to be a zero-tolerance drive on every naturist site. Any erection, genital-close-up, headless-body-emphasis photo has to be met with expulsion. No exception; no second chance!

Only when we are no longer discussing this on a pure nudist forum can we consider the job done.

Hugs, Will

[Running Bear]

...I suppose it comes down to attitude. the naturists are far too tolerant whereas the swingers are selfish, ignorant and lacking in intelligence.

...The swingers must go and fast! They have no conscience. Therefore to defend itself true naturism has to become equally single-minded and militant. There has to be a zero-tolerance drive on every naturist site. Any erection, genital-close-up, headless-body-emphasis photo has to be met with expulsion. No exception; no second chance!
Hugs, Will

This generalisation is wrong and dangerous.
Most swingers, like naturists, have a desire to undertake their chosen activity with respect to other swingers and members of the public. It is the very few and unwanted swingers that upset everybody.
Rather than fighting them we need to be working together to improve the current situation. Swingers have a code of conduct that is identical to the British Naturism nude acceptance policy statement so there are many similarities not differences.
Naturists and swingers must remove the unwanted element from our beaches not create a war between us.
An intolerant attitude will harm naturism not enhance it. As naturists we are by nature very tolerant of peoples bodies so that shame does not harm our social development. Sex is part of our social development and we must not allow shame to make us intolerant. If you fancy Shaun the sheep then who am I to say it is wrong?
The prejudice wording says tolerance of people "regardless of their sexual preference". This infers homosexuals or married but also includes swingers and the like.
<<Naturist here not swinger>>

[garbo]

Willynillyuk:
The line between nudism and sex is blurred only to non-nudists! This is undoubtedly why so few try nudism and probably the biggest reason that reluctant spouses are reluctant!

I have never been to the Cap, but I have not heard of much swinger activity here in Florida. The single exception is a resort on the west coast of Florida that supposedly has promoted to swinger groups to keep attendance up. Friends who have stayed at that particular resort reported no activity that they were aware of.

At a open discussion group at the resort I frequent, we discussed the many misconceptions non-nudists have regarding nudism. Undoubtedly, the purpose to create new marketing ideas aimed at non-nudists. Sex was at the top of the list, swinger activity was near the bottom. Maybe things are different here??

[richo]

I think the worst thing that nudists or naturists can do it demonize sex. In appropriate circumstances, there's nothing wrong with intimacy or sexual activity. However, that doesn't include family-oriented environments or wide-open public beaches. If it's an adult-only resort, I honestly don't see why a couple doing whatever off in the bushes somewhere matters.

That's also not the same thing as swinging or orgies - and again, in the appropriate environment (where one is told to expect such), I don't see a problem with it. The only issue is when you expect *not* to see that sort of thing and come across it (especially with minors present).

[nickuma09]

think the worst thing that nudists or naturists can do it demonize sex. In appropriate circumstances, there's nothing wrong with intimacy or sexual activity. However, that doesn't include family-oriented environments or wide-open public beaches. If it's an adult-only resort, I honestly don't see why a couple doing whatever off in the bushes somewhere matters.

That's also not the same thing as swinging or orgies - and again, in the appropriate environment (where one is told to expect such), I don't see a problem with it. The only issue is when you expect *not* to see that sort of thing and come across it (especially with minors present).

i think you're right on...it's all about the environment and adhering to what it dictates. Undoubtedly there are some bad apples who make inappropriate advances in social nudist settings, but i think even among swingers that is a small minority and one shouldn't indict everyone who is into that lifestyle choice as bad--which is what alot of people seem to do.

[Naturist Zoar]

Isn't it always location, location, location?

[REMITROM]

I know this won't be a popular comment, but there is an overreaction on this board to people who like to be nude AND do consentual things with one another while they're conveniently nude.

I have no problem with people who want to run (and attend) "family oriented" facilities, but I also see no problem with those who want to run (and attend) an "adult" facility. Since both either require nudity or are clothing-optional; both should have the right to describe themselves as nudist or clothing-optional.

What I do have a problem with is that those "family oriented" facilities often frown on PDAs between adults. If they were unclothed, this beautiful expression of closeness and love between the Obamas wouldn't be permitted: i280.photobucket.com/.../barack-michelle3.jpg

We are approaching the second decade of the twenty-first century. If people in the textile world still can't distinguish between a "swingers club" and a true naturist facility they haven't tried and never will. It's also time for "family oriented" facilities to acknowledge that sex is here to stay and relax their standards about PDAs.

David Mortimer

[Oldman]

What I do have a problem with is that those "family oriented" facilities often frown on PDAs between adults. If they were unclothed, this beautiful expression of closeness and love between the Obamas wouldn't be permitted: i280.photobucket.com/.../barack-michelle3.jpg

We are approaching the second decade of the twenty-first century. If people in the textile world still can't distinguish between a "swingers club" and a true naturist facility they haven't tried and never will. It's also time for "family oriented" facilities to acknowledge that sex is here to stay and relax their standards about PDAs.

David Mortimer


Hear! Hear!

A nude couple and a clothed couple in an affectionate, loving embrace. What is the difference? Nothing. Only in the minds of those observing who despite being "nudists" still have yet to shake the puritan concept that nudity equals sex.


My wife and I count ourselves lucky to be members of a club that rejoices at couples who can show their affection for each other. Hugs and Kisses amongst couples are not going to end the world. At our club, friends do embrace each other and it doesn't raise an eyebrow... just as it wouldn't if it occurred at a social textile event.

[Noodlebug]

I think it nudism is about anything, it is about respect and understanding and responsibility. Nudism is a culture, and just like any culture, there are a number of unwritten rules which are universally understood. Just type "Nudist Etiquette" into any search engine and you will find hundreds of thousands of lists, listing largely the same "Do's and Don'ts."

Of course just because the principles are well understood doesn't mean the details are not subject to deviation, everyone has their own idea about what "no overt sexual activity" means. And there are probably slightly less stringent rules at adult orientated resorts than family clubs and public beaches.

Most nudists, in my experience, go out of the way not to offend anyone. They put big fences around their properties, they only undress when they know nobody will object, and they avoid anything which might even remotely be considered sexual. I think it is better to err on the side of caution than to push the boundaries, particularly as we would all like to see more people accepting nudism as a perfectly legitimate recreational pursuit, and less people associating it with the lurid, sleazy image of sex and swingers.

No-one is suggesting all nudists should become eunochs, but (nudity apart) if it is inappropriate at your local golf club, then it's probably inappropriate in a nudist context.

[Running Bear]

...Most nudists, in my experience, go out of the way not to offend anyone. They put big fences around their properties, they only undress when they know nobody will object, and they avoid anything which might even remotely be considered sexual. I think it is better to err on the side of caution than to push the boundaries, particularly as we would all like to see more people accepting nudism as a perfectly legitimate recreational pursuit, and less people associating it with the lurid, sleazy image of sex and swingers.
No-one is suggesting all nudists should become eunochs, but (nudity apart) if it is inappropriate at your local golf club, then it's probably inappropriate in a nudist context.

Yes, we sometimes go over the top not to offend. Perhaps we need to relax and be more confident and consider that many people may not be offended.

Golf club? - bad example. A group of hedonists to be sure. Why do they have surveillance cameras on their golf courses to catch unsuspecting naturist ramblers?

One needs to consider the age-old idea of "If it is inappropriate when you are dressed then it should be inappropriate naked. The presence or absence of clothes should make no difference".

[David77]

I prefer a definition of hedonism as - greatly envoying all your senses; sight, sound, smell, touch, taste (and add to that the enjoyment of feelings of companionship, love and sex, dialogue, intellect, mental problem solving, our feeling pleasant memories, etc.)

I am all for ETHICAL HEDONISM. Enjoy all the senses in an ethical (moral) way.

Of course, the good life does not end with enjoying personal pleasure, even though it be completely ethical pleasure. This would be too self-centered, as we have obligations to others which must be met to live the truly good and ethical life.

Let us hope that we have the capacity to identify with others giving rise to altruiism. as well as a capacity for circumspect, self-enjoying hedonism.

I hope your life is truly a banquet and no "evil" (bad stuff) befall you.

[Running Bear]

Nice post David77. Your definition of hedonism seems to perfectly define golf to me :-)
Good karma to all so lets discard that bad karma. Could not have said it better myself.
edit: forgot today was valentines day so I wish all my CFF friends a yogic wish. L O V E.
http://www.trueyogainc.com/uploaded_images/200361124-001-712484.jpg

[Noodlebug]

I prefer a definition of hedonism as - greatly envoying all your senses; sight, sound, smell, touch, taste (and add to that the enjoyment of feelings of companionship, love and sex, dialogue, intellect, mental problem solving, our feeling pleasant memories, etc.)


Anything is fine if you define it according to your own preferred standards. Unfortunately when most people use or read or hear the word "hedonism" they think of amoral excess, or certain resorts in the Caribbean (which are largely the same thing). Saying it's OK in a nudist setting can clearly lead to misunderstanding, or exploitation.

Relabelling and redefining just serves to blur the edges and help people justify their behaviour. It's better to stick to commonly understood meanings, or even better, avoid blanket terms and break things down into specific examples of what you mean when you are arguing whether or not they are acceptable.

[David77]

Anything is fine if you define it according to your own preferred standards. Unfortunately when most people use or read or hear the word "hedonism" they think of amoral excess, or certain resorts in the Caribbean (which are largely the same thing). Saying it's OK in a nudist setting can clearly lead to misunderstanding, or exploitation.

Relabelling and redefining just serves to blur the edges and help people justify their behaviour. It's better to stick to commonly understood meanings, or even better, avoid blanket terms and break things down into specific examples of what you mean when you are arguing whether or not they are acceptable.

Is is unfortunate that you would consider the subject of hedonism as merely "amoral excess, or certain resorts in the Caribbean". The definition and explanation of hedonism has been examined by many scholars (and we common folk), as it has been examined since at least the Greek philosophers, Democritus and Epicurian, thru the Britisn Rationalist, to even Sigmon Freud and his rather elaborate pleasure-pain theories.

There are many angles to the idea of hedonism, including my own humble ideas which were furthered by a platform lecture I recently heard. My post statement may be interpreted as one mode from which some want to live their lives, but is not the only mode some would choose - such as that of sequestered monk or priest.

You can contine to think of the Caribean resort and amoral excess if you want to, but I prefer a more classic definions. These various philosophies, definitions, were examined by my "minoring" in philosophy in my undergraduate work, and from the lectures on Freud's "pleasure-pain" principles in graduate school, etc.

The various compelling ideas on hedonism are very interesting, and one can read much about this subject on the internet. Here are two of many references, but not necessarily the best of the lot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism

[Running Bear]

Hedonism just means *the pursuit of pleasure". Probably originally referring to Romans' drinking palaces. Just because somebody corrupts a word by using it for sex resorts does not change its meaning. I perceive it was being used in its philosophical and correct meaning here.
Gay evolved from meaning happy originally to now meaning homosexual is a legitimate evolution of the word.
Nude evolving from meaning the *absence of clothes" or the "absence of sin" to meaning sexual practitioner is not a legitimate evolution of the word.
Textile evolving to mean a non-naturist is now in the Oxford English dictionary so from a colloquial word it has evolved to be part of our language.
Knickers are men's trousers often worn by the landed gentry in England but our ladies corrupted that word to refer to their own garments.
Social science has to work within the confines of language limitations. New words are created to cover complex behaviour patterns. My own evolution of the word freerange naturism and sexual tourist is a prime example of this.

[Noodlebug]

Is is unfortunate that you would consider the subject of hedonism as merely "amoral excess, or certain resorts in the Caribbean". The definition and explanation of hedonism has been examined by many scholars (and we common folk...
You can contine to think of the Caribean resort and amoral excess if you want to, but I prefer a more classic definions.

I think you misunderstand me. You can define hedonism however you want, with however many scholastic precedents, but when the mass media use the word, and when people down the pub use the word, they mean something clear and distinct that is different from what you want it to mean! You cannot wipe out a cultural connotation overnight.

If you start saying hedonism is acceptable (intending your own definition), then self-declared hedonists (with their own, quite different definition) will see it as a green light.

I'm just urging caution with the terminology you use because while the sentiment of your message may be perfectly acceptable, people tend to hear what they want to hear and very rarely read the small print.