Public Nudity

[MikeJB]

Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in.

[MikeJB]

Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in.

[nudeM]

This subject has been brought up several times. It is the consenses that we like to do things such as everyday activities, only nude. But it's those certain "offendees" who don't like to see the naked body, especially the ones who have kids, who will call the police. All it takes is for an individual to call in a complaint, and the police must respond. It is up to the police to figure out if the nudity was being viewed as lewd or not. It is up to the police to either cite you, or give you a warning. If you are cited, then it is up to the judge. It's sad to say, but yes, you could be required to register as a sex offender.

The best way to figure out your neighbors, is to simply ask if your nudity offends them. That is how I was able to go nude in the backyard. I asked the neighbors, and they stated they would not be offended, so I am nude in the backyard constantly. Going nude in the front yard is different. Not only do you have to contend with the neighbors, but also with the general public i.e., paper boy, mailman, trash collector, utilities personnel (meter readers) and the traffic.

It is these organizations that are trying to get the word out, through educating the public, that pure and simple nudity is okay. Being nude is no way connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties. We just like to live life to the fullest and do things around the house, but only without clothes.

Mike

As you're new here you won't have seen all the previous discussion on this subject including all the points you have raised. So let me sum up the argument against public nudity from the point of view of a non-nudist. I apologise in advance to all those here who think I'm just repeating tired old arguments for the umpteenth time, but Mike has a right to know:

People have the right to dress as they wish, or not be dressed at all, on their own property or any other private property out of view of others. They have the right to be naked at naturist venues and on naturist beaches or other places set aside for naturist uses. According to a poll published on this site - by one of your fellow naturists - approximately 2% of the population would describe themselves as naturists. So naturists are a very small minority. Yet a significant number of people comprising many times that proportion - I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons.

Public places belong to all of us. In many cases we pay to own them, we pay for their maintenance etc. The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so. Indeed some public places are made purely to be enjoyed. So how do the authorities - as custodians of these public properties - ensure that they are comfortable and user-friendly? The answer is that they impose and enforce rules, and these rules have to be based on current attitudes, values, mores etc. So public sex is out, as is foul language, as is loud music, drunkenness and, of course, exposure of the private parts.

The point about black people etc is spurious. People don't choose their race or their sex or even their sexuality. They are what they are. No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are. What is and should be prohibited in public is any wilful BEHAVIOUR that is likely to upset or offend a significant proportion of the populace who have to or want to use that place.

Naturists are as welcome as anyone else in my local park - just so long as they keep their genitals etc. out of sight of my family and myself. That means keeping a pair of shorts on - hardly an onorous requirement, is it? Your preference to be totally nude must be subjugated in favour of the preferences of many more people who would find your nudity so offensive that remaining in that place would be unbearable so they would either leave or call the police. If you want to take your shorts off then go to a nudist beach.

You said: "you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them". To me, you being nude in public is every bit as unpleasant and unacceptable as if you threw a bucket of sewage over me. I regard that as real harm in every sense of the word.

You can argue as much as you like that nudity is natural or that my reaction and my family's reaction is illogical but it doesn't change the reality of the situation andit doesn't lessen the suffering and angst.

If I went to a nudist beach then I could expect to see nudity. If I did so and suffered shock as a result then I would have nobody to blame but myself. So I keep away from nudist beaches. But that's not enough for you - or so it seems. You want an established right to expose your private parts to me and my wife and my kids and my elderly parents whenever and wherever it suits you. I hope you will see that I find that totally unacceptable. And I'm not alone in that.

NudeM

"It is these organizations that are trying to get the word out, through educating the public, that pure and simple nudity is okay."

But they know what nudity is. And it's not OK for them. So what are you going to educate them about? Do you think that once they realise that nudism isn't "connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties" they'll say: "Oh! OK then. In that case we don't mind if your stark naked in the local park where the kids are playing, or in the supermarket, or the centre of town"? Somehow I don't think they will.

The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity.

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Never underestimate the ignorance of the public.

Rik

[soofreeemateomanian]

if everyone was educated stu, There would be textile beaches instead of nudist beaches and if I see you with clothes in a public place in front of my family, I would call the police on you jk lol. The thing stu, is you can't see the big picture can you, you only think of yourself hmm?

[magwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[magwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree completely with all your comments. I just got a ticket for nudity in a state beach north of Laguna beach in the state park there. I have contacted aanr for help and am going to look into fighting the ticket. There was only adults at the beach (about 10 total people) and one couple (the cop said they were europeans believe it or not) complained. All I was doing was laying out nude and walking down to the water and back... I can't believe how screwed up people are about nudity. Every couple/person who walked by me when close would not look at me. they would look out at the water, down to their feet or straight ahead.. I know cause I watched as they passed. How can they be offended if they weren't even looking when they got close? Unbelievable...!!! I believe that it is the rights of the nude person that are being violated not the clothed who are complaining. If they don't like it, don't look - like if they don't like the shirt you have on they don't report it to the cops to be ticketed or arrested.... However, by complaining and the police giving me a ticket, they have violated my rights to be free and do or be what I want to..!

" I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons.


And you've said that a million times without a shred of proof that it might actually be so. Even in that poll you had a friend do your views weren't supported.

Stop assigning your phobias to most of the population and there will be nothing to discuss.

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And we are ALL born naked. In fact, I'm naked right now. Therefore I should not be barred from a public place because of what I am. Just as you shouldn't be barred because you impair yourself with textiles.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not a matter of education. It is a matter of desensitization. Rarely seeing real nudity causes an unnatural and unhealthy hypersensitivity to it when it is encountered.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not true. There is no entitlement to never be offended or to be at all comfortable. I am deeply offended by having pro-life demonstrators showing images of aborted fetuses in front of my children. However they have an absolute right to do so and I adjust my life accordingly.

[MikeJB]

Stu, I think you miss my point. If this whole "lets make the public comfortable" crap was true then everything I am offended about in public I could relate to the cops and demand they take action and really the cops have enough on their hands and cant waste time with my complaints, especially if im not actually being harmed. Most nudity laws say in some form or another that you have to be causing some harm or intending to cause harm with your nudity, so yeah if I was nude and walked up to someone and stuck my genitals in their face or if I was some stripper and pulled my clothes off and danced in front of someone suggestively then yeah I would be in the wrong but if im just walking nude down say a street, do you think that the police would have the right to arrest me just because I offended someone? I really think that if people call in a nude man/woman report, there oughta be a rule that states that the person must indicate that there is some harm being done before a police officer would be called to investigate because im sure the police get pissed every time they gotta go crack down on someone whos just trying to get a tan. If I have to accept loud music in a neighborhood and listen to all the anti abortion and pro bush people out there ranting their stupid political bias 24/7 then people should have to accept my nudity, which doesnt intend to cause any harm. As for your sewage statement, if someone dumped sewage on your head then yes youd be in the right to complain because they intended to cause you harm and that is just unsanitary and can give you countless diseases, being nude does nothing to you and in fact most places youd only see one or two nude people and itd be easy enough to just look the other way or ignore it, simple as that Stu. We dont have a perfect society so we cant always be comfortable with what others do but we can do our best to be comfortable ourselves.

[MikeJB]

Also Stu dont get me hyped up on the whole shorts thing because wearing shorts just shows you are ashamed of your genitals and can be covering skin that is designed to be exposed and makes you get all hot and sweaty down there and thats no fun and why should people have to wear a useless garment just to please a bunch of people who are misinformed and could just as easily look the other way and ignore me?

[MikeJB]

Mike

"As you're new here you won't have seen all the previous discussion on this subject including all the points you have raised. So let me sum up the argument against public nudity from the point of view of a non-nudist. I apologise in advance to all those here who think I'm just repeating tired old arguments for the umpteenth time, but Mike has a right to know:"

I dont agree with alot of your arguments Stu, for the mere fact that you keep saying nudity is offensive and unacceptable for society BUT you give no reasons as to why it is this way or why people should be or are offended by it. You just give us the ole "thats just the way society is" crap and you really gotta have facts to back that up if people are gonna beleive you and not take you for some looney.

"People have the right to dress as they wish, or not be dressed at all, on their own property or any other private property out of view of others. They have the right to be naked at naturist venues and on naturist beaches or other places set aside for naturist uses. According to a poll published on this site - by one of your fellow naturists - approximately 2% of the population would describe themselves as naturists. So naturists are a very small minority. Yet a significant number of people comprising many times that proportion - I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons."

Oh ok, so basically we should just go and hide from society our lifestyle? Wouldnt that make people kinda more skittish about nudity, because people only run and hide when they have something to hide and nudists dont have anything to hide because people who have something to hide are usually doing something wrong and if nudists go to the resorts and hide their lifestyle then that will fuel societies notion that nudity is bad because they will ask "if nudity is ok, then why not just come out and be open with it?" We cant control what society or individuals find offensive, shocking or unnaceptable, thats their problem and they gotta deal with it in their own way. Nudity is not shocking or offensive in and of itself and people gotta learn to accept it that way and if it bothers them they just need to stay away from us then.


"Public places belong to all of us. In many cases we pay to own them, we pay for their maintenance etc. The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so. Indeed some public places are made purely to be enjoyed. So how do the authorities - as custodians of these public properties - ensure that they are comfortable and user-friendly? The answer is that they impose and enforce rules, and these rules have to be based on current attitudes, values, mores etc. So public sex is out, as is foul language, as is loud music, drunkenness and, of course, exposure of the private parts."


Oh ok. So since im ENTITLED to be comfortable, does this mean I can go telling people to do or not do things that bother me or strip their clothing off because I find it objectionable or call the police everytime someone says a swear word? I mean its just ridiculous. I mean why should kids be exposed to violence, many parents think this is bad for kids and that can be largely proven but hey its a large and growing market and its accepted even though that kids are being harmed, hell they even make money off of it, so we oftentimes accept things that are harmful so why cant people accept nudity in public especially when it isnt harmful? I think your use of the word "private parts" shows your shame and reluctance to call them what they really are, theyre genitals and I think I should be offended by you calling them private parts, MAYBE I SHOULD GO CALL THE COPS FOR YOU OFFENDING ME ON A PUBLIC FORUM?????????? j/k When these people make rules, yes they do look at the society and its culture but they also need to make rules based on people actually doing something that is wrong or harmful, I mean drinking and smoking is harmful but yet we still allow those in public but hey nudity in and of itself doesnt harm anyone but we ban it, I mean go figure, our legal system isnt even perfect so how can we say that the nudity laws are perfect, its pretty obvious thay they are screwed up, especially when a mother gets arrested for pictures of her topless 3 year old girl and parents get custody taken from their kids just because they saw them nude once. Those are two prime examples of what is wrong with our society and its laws, get with the program Stu.


"The point about black people etc is spurious. People don't choose their race or their sex or even their sexuality. They are what they are. No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are. What is and should be prohibited in public is any wilful BEHAVIOUR that is likely to upset or offend a significant proportion of the populace who have to or want to use that place."

We are born naked and we cant control that, so we shouldnt be criminals. I mean i know we can put clothes on but that just goes to show that we are unhappy the way we are, its like Michael Jackson changing his skin color because he cant accept the fact that he was born black, do you think this is healthy? I would think not. The law says any wilful behavior that INTENDS to cause harm to someone, you actually have to be doing something that is lewd, not just being nude.


"Naturists are as welcome as anyone else in my local park - just so long as they keep their genitals etc. out of sight of my family and myself. That means keeping a pair of shorts on - hardly an onorous requirement, is it? Your preference to be totally nude must be subjugated in favour of the preferences of many more people who would find your nudity so offensive that remaining in that place would be unbearable so they would either leave or call the police. If you want to take your shorts off then go to a nudist beach."

Thats bs. we are not welcome in your park unless we wear your shorts and confine ourself to your rules, otherwise we are ticketed and arrested like petty criminals. I think its absurd that we should have to wear the shorts, not because its stressful for us to put on a simple garment but the fact is that when we do, we are shaming ourselves and promoting the image that something is wrong with that part of us. Why should we have to go hide in a nudist resort just so you dont have to deal with your emotions?


"You said: "you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them". To me, you being nude in public is every bit as unpleasant and unacceptable as if you threw a bucket of sewage over me. I regard that as real harm in every sense of the word."

Just because nudity is unpleasant and unacceptable to you, does this mean that we shouldnt be able to do it? Im sure alot of textile people do unpleasant and unacceptable things in public every day, wow, does this mean I can call the cops on them and cause undo legal and personal stress to them too??????????? I dont think so and the same goes for nudity. If you dont like it then maybe you shouldnt look where you know a nudist will be or you should just ignore them, like everyone else does with things tyhey dont like. Dumping sewage on your head and being nude are two different things, the sweage thing is a health and disturbance issue, which means you actually intend to cause harm and are doing something very unhealthy because it spreads germs, being nude simply does neither of these and is irrelevant to that situation.

"You can argue as much as you like that nudity is natural or that my reaction and my family's reaction is illogical but it doesn't change the reality of the situation andit doesn't lessen the suffering and angst."

Just because the publics majority opinion is against nudism, does that mean we should just give in and accept that as being ok? Society can change and the only way its gonna change is if we act and show them that our lifestyle can be safe and good for people in certain ways.

"If I went to a nudist beach then I could expect to see nudity. If I did so and suffered shock as a result then I would have nobody to blame but myself. So I keep away from nudist beaches. But that's not enough for you - or so it seems. You want an established right to expose your private parts to me and my wife and my kids and my elderly parents whenever and wherever it suits you. I hope you will see that I find that totally unacceptable. And I'm not alone in that."

It has nothing to do with exposing them to your family, in fact if that was our sole intention then your words would be logical, but all we want is the right to be nude in public doing the things we do clothed normally and most nudists are respectful enough to be discreet in their actions and not cause undo harm to anyone. If your family doesnt like nude people then im sure they will take the proper precautions so that they wont be overtly exposed to it. The whole "shock value" of nudity in fact is something very unnatural and actually is something with a little bit of willpower, you can actually control.


"But they know what nudity is. And it's not OK for them. So what are you going to educate them about? Do you think that once they realise that nudism isn't "connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties" they'll say: "Oh! OK then. In that case we don't mind if your stark naked in the local park where the kids are playing, or in the supermarket, or the centre of town"? Somehow I don't think they will."

Like people say, its not the public who need to be FORCED to like or even participate in nudity themselves, they dont have to take off a strip of clothing, what they need to do is "accept", not like or agree with but ACCEPT the rights of people to be nude where they please and the rights of people come before the comfort and aaceptance from other people. Many people dont like blacks or hispanics, but we still have to accept them and many people dont like all the atheists and politcal activists out there, but we cant do a damn thing about them, so what makes nudists so damn important? I mean what gives you the right to ban us but not them? Im sure that most people if they know nudity is ok then they wont mind people being nude in parks and stores and such places and honestly if they dont like it, they oughta just ignore it, turn the other way or just simply leave. Im sure if people said nudity was ok then you wouldnt have everyone on your block going nude to the local mall, it just wouldnt happen, but maybe one or two would and that would be easy for most anti nudist people to avoid. I just think they are afraid everyone will want to go nude and those who oppose it will not be able to avoid them.



"The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity."

They dont necessarily need education, besides that about the body and its TRUE function and the fact that it is not bad or offensive but merely need to learn to accept the needs and rights of others. They need to accept simple nudity as normal and just leave people alone.

[aunaturelone]

I see it like this: There are no moral reasons why one shouldn't be nude anywhere anytime, with the exception that the owner (or renter) of private property has a right to set the clothing rules any way they wish while you are actually on their property. Merely causing offense is not a moral issue - and in almost every area other then nudity - is not a legal issue (in the US). We need to bring nudity the same legal freedom we already give to the Nazi party or to Gay Pride.

There are practical reasons not to be nude. Acitivists in nudism want to reduce/eliminate the practcal reasons as much as possible. Make as many legal (under existing law) nude venues as possible so that it becomes convenient for everyone who wants to participate risk free.

There are environmental reasons. Not much we can do about that. (I suppose we could all encourage the global warming trend... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

There are legal reasons. There are two ways to respond to this. You can try and work through the system to get laws repealed and prevent laws from being passed. You can use acts of civil disobedience as a means to challenge the law in the courts and to generate publicity. (Actually there is a third response which is to do nothing at all and a fourth response which is to ignore the law. Neither is viable for me.)

There are social reasons. Social objections are overcome through individual suasion and societal desensitization to the public nude. Each person must determine for themselves how much social disapproval (and legal risk) they are willing to accept.

With intelligence and sensitivity, most nudists would be surprised at how far they can expand their "gymnosphere"; that portion of their life where they can be nude without running afoul of angry neighbors or the law. To do this inevitably means that non-nudists will discover your lifestyle.

How much risk you are willing to take that some intolerant jackass will discover your nudism and give you grief over it, is up to you. Just as is how you mitigate the risk. I don't believe in outing people but the more of us who voluntarily leave the nudist ghetto behind, the more rapidly persuasion and desensitiztion will take place.

If you want to see just how far you can go with very little risk, let me suggest that next May you take a weekend trip to San Francisco and do the Bay to Breakers walk/run nude. It proves that the textile impaired and the nude can happily coexist in the most public setting imaginable.

[MikeJB]

"I see it like this: There are no moral reasons why one shouldn't be nude anywhere anytime, with the exception that the owner (or renter) of private property has a right to set the clothing rules any way they wish while you are actually on their property. Merely causing offense is not a moral issue - and in almost every area other then nudity - is not a legal issue (in the US). We need to bring nudity the same legal freedom we already give to the Nazi party or to Gay Pride."

Yeah its kind of ironic how most places people own and they seem to like to set up their own little list of rules and where its a certain way one place, its different someplace else. I think big places like McDonalds or Wal Mart should just have a basic code that everyone follows so no matter which one you go to, as long as you know the rules, youre ok. I mean its just kind of crazy how when you go to certain places you gotta follow their rules, even though the law and your rights say differently. I mean i think someone's house is one thing, but a public place is something else.

"There are practical reasons not to be nude. Acitivists in nudism want to reduce/eliminate the practcal reasons as much as possible. Make as many legal (under existing law) nude venues as possible so that it becomes convenient for everyone who wants to participate risk free."

I dont see any practical reasons not to go nude unless its too cold or the weather doesnt permit it. Who cares what the activists think, if they dont like us being nude, I mean who really gives a rip. I think there needs to be more nudist frendly places so you dont have to put clothes on everywhre you go because it gets kind of annoying.

"There are environmental reasons. Not much we can do about that. (I suppose we could all encourage the global warming trend... )"

Yeah but those reasons depend on the person and their tolerances, the government shouldnt decide where and when people should or can be nude.

"There are legal reasons. There are two ways to respond to this. You can try and work through the system to get laws repealed and prevent laws from being passed. You can use acts of civil disobedience as a means to challenge the law in the courts and to generate publicity. (Actually there is a third response which is to do nothing at all and a fourth response which is to ignore the law. Neither is viable for me.)"

Yeah but what if no one wants to listen to your opinions? I mean do you just shut up and go with the flow or do you take action. I think some people oughta just get out there and fight these animals I mean some of these people just dont care what anyone thinks and just want their opinion to be the way of the land and these people personally are the ones who I have no respect for and shouldnt have to adheir to their stupid rules, I mean if they cant even be respectful or open minded then why should I care if im nude and against their ideas?

"There are social reasons. Social objections are overcome through individual suasion and societal desensitization to the public nude. Each person must determine for themselves how much social disapproval (and legal risk) they are willing to accept."

Yeah but no matter what we do, someone is gonna always object, so I say the best thing to do is just get nude and not worry about it. I mean we gotta do something to get nudity legalized. Just sitting around and debating stuff to people who dont want to take the time to listen or understand just doesnt work, some of these people are so hard headed you wouldnt open their minds no matter how hard your bashed them.

"With intelligence and sensitivity, most nudists would be surprised at how far they can expand their "gymnosphere"; that portion of their life where they can be nude without running afoul of angry neighbors or the law. To do this inevitably means that non-nudists will discover your lifestyle."

I just dont get why people cant just live and let live and just not worry about such trivial things, I mean as long as the nude person isnt disturbing society or hurting anyone I dont see what the big deal is, I mean you just acknowledge that they are nude and move on.

"How much risk you are willing to take that some intolerant jackass will discover your nudism and give you grief over it, is up to you. Just as is how you mitigate the risk. I don't believe in outing people but the more of us who voluntarily leave the nudist ghetto behind, the more rapidly persuasion and desensitiztion will take place."

I dont even get why there are anti nudity laws anyways, most of the time the cops just blow it over or the judge lets the person go saying they cant take any action against them because the person wasnt doing anything lewd. I mean isnt a waste of time for a cop to arrest someone who is nude just to have them get off in the end? Dont these cops have more importanty things to do and worry about than some nude guy walking down the street?

I"f you want to see just how far you can go with very little risk, let me suggest that next May you take a weekend trip to San Francisco and do the Bay to Breakers walk/run nude. It proves that the textile impaired and the nude can happily coexist in the most public setting imaginable."

Yeah it just seems kinda dumb that we can only be nude at officially sponsored city events, I mean if its ok then how come it isnt ok all the time? That just boggles my mind, I mean either nudity is good or its bad, I dont like all this "well its ok BUT" crap I mean we gotta decide this.

[Gary Naturist]

aunaturelone said: "With intelligence and sensitivity, most nudists would be surprised at how far they can expand their "gymnosphere"; that portion of their life where they can be nude without running afoul of angry neighbors or the law. To do this inevitably means that non-nudists will discover your lifestyle.

"How much risk you are willing to take that some intolerant jackass will discover your nudism and give you grief over it, is up to you. Just as is how you mitigate the risk. I don't believe in outing people but the more of us who voluntarily leave the nudist ghetto behind, the more rapidly persuasion and desensitiztion will take place."

Your post is one of the most intelligent that I have seen on the subject. I'd like to comment in particular on your "gymnosphere" concept.

I use the term "expanding the nude universe", by which I mean claiming new spots for nudists by being nude there. I've done this quite a bit, but I generally keep a low profile, being nude in public only in situations where there are no or few people around.

If no one sees me, then I claim a moral victory -- having liberated the particular area. If a few people see me, then I implicitly ask for acceptance by being pleasant and by not intruding on their personal space.

In addition to enjoying being nude, I am doing my bit to desensitize and educate people re public nudity.

Many, maybe most, people have never thought about whether it's OK to be nude in public. When they see someone, they are forced to think about it.

Of the people who know me, 100% are OK with seeing me nude, knowing that I am a nudist.

Re strangers, I would say that 80% of the people who have seen me naked (e.g. on a hike) are neutral (e.g. "none of my business"), 10% offer a positive comment and 10% make a negative comment. That's a very high degree of acceptance for people who suddenly seeing a naked stranger.

In Canada, where I live, it's rare for someone to be convicted of an offence related to bing nude in public. For one thing, nudity here means "completely bare", so wearing sandals means that I am not nude.

Also, there generally has to be inappropriate conduct, and hiking or cycling or pumping gas doesn't qualify as such.

My goal as a nudist is to be able to be nude in public places, primarily where nudity can be rationalized as adding to the experience or activity. Examples are driving nude on a hot day, sunbathing nude in the park, or cycling nude along a country road.

I have done a lot of driving nude. It's an activity that is in no way personally threatening to anyone else.

I'm trying to screw up my courage to start cycling nude in the country. I would expect to be challenged by the police, but I would hope that they would accept the arguments that (a) I'm not legally nude (wearing footwear) and I'm doing something that in no way could be construed as being lewd or threatening.

Gary

aunaturelone

"I'm naked right now. Therefore I should not be barred from a public place because of what I am."

You can make a decision to be naked. You can make a decision to be in a public place. But you know you are likely to upset and offend people if you make the decision to do both things at the same time.

"It is a matter of desensitization."

There are some things I don't want to be desensitized about. I don't want to be desensitized about seeing animals slaughtered, or people dying in road accidents, or hardcore pornography. I like and wish to keep my sensibilities intact. If they become so out of kilter with the sensibilities of the rst of society then, in order to function, I would have to change. But people who prefer not to see nudity in public aren't some tiny minority. Those who do, on the other hand, are.

"Rarely seeing real nudity causes an unnatural and unhealthy hypersensitivity to it when it is encountered."

I don't regard it as either unnatural or unhealthy. That's your perception.

"Not true. There is no entitlement to never be offended or to be at all comfortable."

As far as public places are concerned I disagree. They are shared areas and everyone has a responsibility to behave in such a way as to avoid causing upset, inconvenience, danger, annoyance or offence to others. There are many laws on this issue.

"I am deeply offended by having pro-life demonstrators showing images of aborted fetuses in front of my children. However they have an absolute right to do so and I adjust my life accordingly."

You shouldn't have to adjust your life - they should adjust their protest to avoid causing offence. They have NO RIGHT to behave in such a way as to cause discomfort to other users of public places just to futher their own causes.

MikeJB

"Stu, I think you miss my point. If this whole "lets make the public comfortable" crap was true then everything I am offended about in public I could relate to the cops and demand they take action"

Yes you could. But the cops can only work within the laws. And how should the laws be formulated? Is it practicable to legislate against every single type of behaviour that somebody somewhere might find offensive? No, of course it isn't. You can't cater for every conceivable preference or whim. So you have to design laws that protect the sensibilities of significant proportions of the population. And that's what we do. There are, for example, certain words I can't shout in public - obscene words. Who decided these words were offensive? The answer is that the authorities and legislature know what words are, for many people, offensive. So if you use those words you could find yourself behind bars. Same with nudity.

"and really the cops have enough on their hands and cant waste time with my complaints, especially if im not actually being harmed."

If I can't go to a public park with my kids without encountering adult nudity then I won't go to them. There are millions of parents out there just like me. So we're being harmed in that we can't use the very parks that we pay for.

Stu

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can make a decision to be naked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually naked is the default condition of every human being. Clothing is a decision. Naked is the absence of a decision.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are some things I don't want to be desensitized about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You don't always get a choice about what you are desesitized to. They obviously did an excellent job of desensitizing you to wearing clothing, something that children universally have to be coerced into doing.

Most important, you don't have the option of trying to prevent others from working to change society as a whole to whatever end state they advocate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't regard it as either unnatural or unhealthy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is unnatural in that is something you are formally trained in. Actually not so much something learned, as coerced upon you at an early age. It is unnatural in that it seeks to hide a display that took millions of years to evolve. It is just as unnatural as putting pants on an oragutang or painting a green parrots feathers red. The extreme aversion you seem to have is unhealthy because of the uneccessary pain you will cause yourself when you do encounter someone nude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You shouldn't have to adjust your life - they should adjust their protest to avoid causing offence. They have NO RIGHT to behave in such a way as to cause discomfort to other users of public places just to futher their own causes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Here in the states they have EVERY right to do so as long as they don't injure or threaten my person, steal or damage my property or obstruct my movement. That's how unpopular movements eventually gain currency and how the oppressed challenges their oppressor; by making them damned uncomfortable.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

Without someone making you uncomfortable there is no reason to change. The result is social stagnation and eventually decline. Progress derives from those refuse to accept their place in the herd.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stu2630:

"You can make a decision to be naked. You can make a decision to be in a public place. But you know you are likely to upset and offend people if you make the decision to do both things at the same time."

I never have to make a decision to be nude. I'm ALWAYS nude at home. The only time I wear clothes at home is when there's someone here who would be uncomfortable with my nudity--except for my great-nephew since I have his dad's permission to be nude if they're here. Other times I only wear shorts. I have to make a decision whether to get dressed to go to the store or wherever or stay home. I sometimes make a decion to put it off until tomorrow because I don't want to get dressed, but I never have to make a decision to be nude since that's my natural state.

"There are some things I don't want to be desensitized about."

I have a nephew who said he didn't want to be "desensitized" to nudity for fear that it would make it less enjoyable when he's with a woman. I assume that by that viewpoint that now that he's married the more he sees his wife nude, the more he will become desensitized to her nude body, and the less she will excite him.

With your extreme revulsion to the human body, I think it would be good for you to become at least a little desensitized to the nude human body so that you at least won't turn white and have to be carried to your car if you encounter a nude woman again.

"You shouldn't have to adjust your life - they should adjust their protest to avoid causing offence. They have NO RIGHT to behave in such a way as to cause discomfort to other users of public places just to futher their own causes."

I agree. No one should be allowed to cause offense or discomfort to anyone. However, everyone is offended and uncomfortable about something. I'm offended by people who stink up my air with tobacco, or with a fart, or who belth loudly repeatedly. I'm offended by people who use my God's name in vain, and other words and phrases that I find offensive. I am offended by people who are rude and obnoxious. I find other types of behavior offensive. The list goes on. However, I don't believe I have a right to tell others how to believe or what to do in most cases, or how to live their lives any more than anyone has the right to do that with me.

"Is it practicable to legislate against every single type of behaviour that somebody somewhere might find offensive? No, of course it isn't."

It's totally impractical to have laws making simple non-sexual nudity in public illegal when in most cases all it does is "offend" someone. I believe (although I can't prove it) that people who have such an extreme reaction to nudity as you do are as much in the minority as nudists are among textiles.

"There are millions of parents out there just like me."

No, Stu, I doubt that there are millions of parents or people in general who turn white and have to be practically carried to "safety" when they see a nude person. Most non-nudists would 1. be offended and call the police. 2. be offended but look away and leave the area. 3. be amused but not offended. 4. not care one way or the other. 5. enjoy the unusual sight and either stare or look discreetly--especially at body parts they don't normally see in public. 6. wish they could do that. However, few would be as upset to the point as you where they nearly faint from the sight.

[Rex]

One example of unexpected public nudity is streaking, particularly at sports venues.
I suppose it's a bit hard to accurately judge, but that does not appear to create large-scale offence.
Around about 1970, American singer Ray Stevens had a hit record about it, but the song was amusing and I think that's how most people see it.
In Australia, it generally goes like this. Someone, usually a young woman, does a streak during a match of some kind. This appears to be of great interest to the crowd, let's say 50,000, who usually show unmistakeable signs of approval.
This action is shown on all the TV channels. There are 20 million Australians, so let's be conservative and say that it's seen on TV by 5
million of us. Again, no general uproar about being offended.
Then the magistrate finds her guilty of some version of "causing offence".
If the crowd were invited to take part in a phone poll through a TV station and register a vote if they were offended, I would be amazed if more than a small minority would even bother to vote.
Because of the propensity of moralists to tell lies, I'm sure we would get votes from people who weren't even there, but I think we could ride that one out.
According to Stu's rationalising, that would make streaking at sports matches OK.
My suggestion is that, those who want to streak, be invited to do so all together during an interval, so as not to disrupt play.
The rules are, keep moving and don't touch anyone else, the 2 winners, M & F, to be selected by the noise of the crowd.
In order to attract only genuine lovers of that particular sport, the prizes to be appropriate eg tickets to future games.

[MikeJB]

aunaturelone

"I'm naked right now. Therefore I should not be barred from a public place because of what I am."

You can make a decision to be naked. You can make a decision to be in a public place. But you know you are likely to upset and offend people if you make the decision to do both things at the same time.
------------------------------------------------

Maybe and maybe not. Depends on where you are, what country/state your in, even what city/town youre in and what kind of people are around you and how much of them are actually offended. Most people I run into are so stuck into their lives that if some hooker, totally naked ran by them wouldnt even say anything to her unless she got in the way of their car, then of course all hell would break loose, what im trying to say though, is especially around here, most people dont give a crap about such things, theyd never consider doing it themselves but they dont care if others are stupid enough to do it. I mean people here are a good example, there are 3 main types * the ones who dont care and drive right by you *yes this includes the cops* and are just intent on getting where they are going* *the people who are actually offended, most of them just yell some obscenity and keep on going, even if on foot* and then you have the *people who actually think its funny or cool that youre nude but dont care* and then the *people who are actually offended* so I mean the count of people who would actually call the police even if offended is really small and most wouldnt call about the nudity, theyd call about some sexual offender or someone thats disturbing the peace or something like that.
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"It is a matter of desensitization."

There are some things I don't want to be desensitized about. I don't want to be desensitized about seeing animals slaughtered, or people dying in road accidents, or hardcore pornography. I like and wish to keep my sensibilities intact. If they become so out of kilter with the sensibilities of the rst of society then, in order to function, I would have to change. But people who prefer not to see nudity in public aren't some tiny minority. Those who do, on the other hand, are.
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Yeah but Stu, you cant get all emotional and angry and call the cops or make a scene for every little thing you dont like about society. Thats what I hate about those people who deny their children to see the real world, saying they are protecting them and then when they actually see this stuff, they are horrifyed, I mean i know yall wanna keep your kids safe and I think you gotta give them a little corner of saftey they can go to, especially when little but I think the best thing you can do is educate them about real life and say that alot of things, especially when you get older may not be pretty or safe, I mean you gotta be realistic about these sort of things and not jerk your kids around. I know youre gonna flame me Stu, but I just want you to understand where im coming from and no im not some extremeist whos gonna show people getting blown up 24/7 to a five year old, but I wanna give them the facts in a way they can understand even if it isnt the prettiest thing in the world *i.e sex, death, war, etc* I hope you can sort of relate to me without bashing my head in.

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"Rarely seeing real nudity causes an unnatural and unhealthy hypersensitivity to it when it is encountered."

I don't regard it as either unnatural or unhealthy. That's your perception.
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I actually do think that it is unhealthy, especially for kids that have never seen nudity before to be denied it, maybe this doesnt happen with your kids, but its been proven by some experts that there can be negative effects from not letting a child see nudity and they can grow up with misconceptions about life, the body and sex in general, so I mean that its best to just expose them to simple safe family nudity, not pushing it in their face, forcing them to indulge it or being obsessive about it but just doing your daily routine naked and not thinking about it in a negative or embarassed way/


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"Not true. There is no entitlement to never be offended or to be at all comfortable."

As far as public places are concerned I disagree. They are shared areas and everyone has a responsibility to behave in such a way as to avoid causing upset, inconvenience, danger, annoyance or offence to others. There are many laws on this issue.
------------------------------------------------
I dont really see how simple nudity causes upset, inconvience, danger or annoyance and offence to others unless they dont understand it and have the wrong idea about it and or just want to cause an issue out of it. I feel people should just control their emotions and not worry about things that are not dangerous or unhealthy or even their buisness. I think it has to do with reconditioning people and getting them to learn to control their fears and annoyances.

------------------------------------------------

"I am deeply offended by having pro-life demonstrators showing images of aborted fetuses in front of my children. However they have an absolute right to do so and I adjust my life accordingly."

You shouldn't have to adjust your life - they should adjust their protest to avoid causing offence. They have NO RIGHT to behave in such a way as to cause discomfort to other users of public places just to futher their own causes.
-------------------------------------------------
Then why is it legal Stu, obviously your counterparts in the law business think its ok and thats why there are laws allowing it, its just that extremeist people like you cant learn to live with and accept it. I mean if you can live with your kids seeing something horrible like that, then they can see something simple as nudity and not freak out. Most kids see violence and death and somehow the legal system thinks its ok and that offends and harms alot of people but do you think they ban it? NO so I think they oughta allow nudity, because nudity does none of those things and if they concentrate on our ideals then violence and death wont be such a big important factor in their lives.
------------------------------------------------

MikeJB

"Stu, I think you miss my point. If this whole "lets make the public comfortable" crap was true then everything I am offended about in public I could relate to the cops and demand they take action"

Yes you could. But the cops can only work within the laws. And how should the laws be formulated? Is it practicable to legislate against every single type of behaviour that somebody somewhere might find offensive? No, of course it isn't. You can't cater for every conceivable preference or whim. So you have to design laws that protect the sensibilities of significant proportions of the population. And that's what we do. There are, for example, certain words I can't shout in public - obscene words. Who decided these words were offensive? The answer is that the authorities and legislature know what words are, for many people, offensive. So if you use those words you could find yourself behind bars. Same with nudity.

-----------------------------------------------

Yeah but they gotta decide which laws to act on and which ones not to. Besides most places either dont have explicit laws against nudity or the ones they have are so vague you couldnt follow them completely even if you wanted to, so most places simple nudity isnt even a misdemeanor as most cops wont waste time with it and those that do, the person gets off by the judge really quickly or has to pay a small fine or something of that sort. Baiscally I think its a waste of time and effort on the part of the offendee and the police to worry about such trivial matter, you gotta read that other post I wrote to truly understand this.

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"and really the cops have enough on their hands and cant waste time with my complaints, especially if im not actually being harmed."

If I can't go to a public park with my kids without encountering adult nudity then I won't go to them. There are millions of parents out there just like me. So we're being harmed in that we can't use the very parks that we pay for.

Stu
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Then dont go to them. If nudity is such a small minority as you say then you could probably go to another park or relocate at that park at a another section and chances are youll never see that nudist ever again and thus the problem is solved. I mean it might take a bit of work on your part but its still better than denying nudity to those who chose to enjoy it and causing a problem which with a little bit of common sense from you could be avoided all together. I mean think of it, what do you think would cause more of a scene for you and th4e nudist and the genral public, calling the police, having them come in the park, sirens blaring, yelling for the guy to geton the ground, possibly roughing him up a bit, disturbing people with the scene and all the noise or just walking away from the nudity and ignoring it and having all the happy people go on with their lives and not worrying about it. If it bugs them theyll call the police, you dont need to do it for them, if they wanna cause a scene, thats their business but it doesnt mean you should.

[MikeJB]

One example of unexpected public nudity is streaking, particularly at sports venues.
I suppose it's a bit hard to accurately judge, but that does not appear to create large-scale offence.
Around about 1970, American singer Ray Stevens had a hit record about it, but the song was amusing and I think that's how most people see it.
In Australia, it generally goes like this. Someone, usually a young woman, does a streak during a match of some kind. This appears to be of great interest to the crowd, let's say 50,000, who usually show unmistakeable signs of approval.
This action is shown on all the TV channels. There are 20 million Australians, so let's be conservative and say that it's seen on TV by 5
million of us. Again, no general uproar about being offended.
Then the magistrate finds her guilty of some version of "causing offence".
If the crowd were invited to take part in a phone poll through a TV station and register a vote if they were offended, I would be amazed if more than a small minority would even bother to vote.
Because of the propensity of moralists to tell lies, I'm sure we would get votes from people who weren't even there, but I think we could ride that one out.
According to Stu's rationalising, that would make streaking at sports matches OK.
My suggestion is that, those who want to streak, be invited to do so all together during an interval, so as not to disrupt play.
The rules are, keep moving and don't touch anyone else, the 2 winners, M & F, to be selected by the noise of the crowd.
In order to attract only genuine lovers of that particular sport, the prizes to be appropriate eg tickets to future games.
------------------------------------------------

Yeah Stu, I admire people for streaking at ball games, its not something id do as I would like to keep a low profile at first so I could be nude in public without causing alot of stress, but these people who do dare to do this, I admire them for their courage and im sure alot of the people coming there, except the moralistic extremeists like you would come back again and again just to see the streaker if nothing else, thus giving the stadium more money and keeping it in business. I mean I know streaking falls under that "intending to excite sort of thing" but as long as they are not causing harm or intending to then I wouldnt worry about it. I mean if I ran the place and people like it, those that could id give em like free food and other things if they came back a certain amount of times and for anyone who it bothered, id explain the whole situation to them honestly and openly and theyd understand and to make sure I cover my *** id even put up a sign warning about nudity at the ball game and saying that if you dont like it you shouldnt come in but for all those that do, theyre welcome, including kids. I mean even the most extreme males wouldnt give up free nudity, even if they gotta pay for the game and food, theyd love it and itd keep me in business which would make me happy too.

[Rex]

Thanks for your comments, MikeJB. I laughed out loud!
As far as the moralists not coming back for more, I think many of them would. A bit like when a film or doco is shown on Australian TV, if it contains nudity, under the regulations this has to be stated in TV mags etc and also visually and spoken during the intro to the program.
This does not stop moralists watching, then complaining. I can't help wondering if they video it and watch it lots of times, so they can perhaps spot more things to complain about.
To give Stu his due, [Hey Mateo, that sounds like the first line of a poem!] presumably he would take note of the warning and not watch.

[MikeJB]

Yeah I think Stu would keep coming back again and again and again especially if he knew someone was streaking there just for the sole fact that he would want to find some offense to get him with when he complained to someone. I find it funny how he doesnt like nudity but yet supports more nudist resorts and thinks other people being nude as long as they are in private as ok. I mean he is kind of contradicting himself and I just think he is basically saying all of this just to cause a problem because if he really meant what he said hed get his facts straight. I just think its great if people streak at ball games as long as u let people know its gonna happen, I mean that sudden surprise of it is fun but of course you never know when theyre gonna do it and so if someone does streak then everyone who sees it wont mind because they saw the sign before coming in and have nothing to complain about.

[Nude in the North]

Hey Stu,
Here's a couple things for you to ponder.

Nudists pay taxes too. So we also pay for the public places. Shouldn't we have the right to use them as we wish ? If we banned everyone that others thought were offensive from public places , they would be pretty lonely places.

You say Nudists can be nude as long as it's in a designated area so people would "expect" to see nudity there and not be "Alarmed or Shocked".

Well Stu , Here's a heads up for you. Nudity is Legal EVERYWHERE on this planet! So from this moment on there is no reason for Anyone to be Shocked or Alarmed at the sight of a Nude person.
Expect to see some Nudity everywhere you go from this moment on. If it bothers you, simply divert your eyes onto something else. The Nudist couldn't care less if you look anyway.

As Self-appointed Ruler of the Universe, I Declare that No Person has the right to be offended by another persons right to be Free.

There is no reason for you to bring up any contrary arguments to this Law. It's just the way it is, so you have to live with it.
No, Don't even think that your opinion matters.
This is the way it is.
Accept it.

Steve

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nude in the North:
As Self-appointed Ruler of the Universe, I Declare that No Person has the right to be offended by another persons right to be Free.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just what I've always said too, but I've never thought of the idea to be facetious about it!

I love it! I love it! I love it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You GO, Steve!

Mike

"what do you think would cause more of a scene for you and th4e nudist and the genral public, calling the police, having them come in the park, sirens blaring, yelling for the guy to geton the ground, possibly roughing him up a bit",

So that's how you think the British bobby operates, do you? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Really, Mike, you should get out more - out of your country I mean! Everywhere isn't like America. In most places our police don't carry guns - and they wouldn't have a clue how to use them if they did!

"if they wanna cause a scene, thats their business but it doesnt mean you should".

I value the fact that I can take my daughter to the park just around the corner from my home. I don't intend to allow a precedent to be set that could result in the experience being spoiled, or my daughter, my wife, my neighbours etc being shocked, because of the selfishness of a small number of others.

"One example of unexpected public nudity is streaking, particularly at sports venues.
I suppose it's a bit hard to accurately judge, but that does not appear to create large-scale offence".

It depends on the circumstances. But there are specific (and quite serious) offences concerning behaving in a manner that disrupts a sporting event.

"My suggestion is that, those who want to streak, be invited to do so all together during an interval, so as not to disrupt play."

You don't actually have to 'disrupt play'. Unauthorised entry to the playing field is enough over here to put you in prison. Then they can get a lifetime ban from ALL sportsgrounds. Nice one, huh?

"but these people who do dare to do this, I admire them for their courage"

These people aren't nudists, or supporters of nudist rights. They're just idiots. The only reason they do it is to cause shock and offence. If nobody was bothered by it they wouldn't do it. In my book that makes them antisocial and irresponsible people who deserve to be behind bars.

Rex

"To give Stu his due, [Hey Mateo, that sounds like the first line of a poem!] presumably he would take note of the warning and not watch."

Thank you, Rex. I hardly ever watch TV thesedays and, before watching any movies or dramas, I look out for warnings. So long as they warn me, and it's after 10pm, I don't care what they show on TV.

MikeJB

"Yeah I think Stu would keep coming back again and again and again especially if he knew someone was streaking there just for the sole fact that he would want to find some offense to get him with when he complained to someone."

That's quite insulting, Mike, and something you cannot substantiate. I avoid nudity - I don't go looking for it just to complain! Why should I try to see something that makes me sick?

"I find it funny how he doesnt like nudity but yet supports more nudist resorts and thinks other people being nude as long as they are in private as ok".

Yup. I don't like motor-racing and I would object if they used my street as a racetrack. But that doesn't mean I don't think there should be proper facilities for the thousands of people who do enjoy watching this sport.

Naturism at naturist resorts is a harmless passtime, lifestyle, call it what you will. I have said that there aren't enough places for naturists to use and I support there being more. Just because I personally don't want to go to any of them doesn't make me a hypocrite - it makes me considerate for others - including those who are very different from myself.

"...if he really meant what he said hed get his facts straight."

What "facts"?

"...so if someone does streak then everyone who sees it wont mind because they saw the sign before coming in and have nothing to complain about".

When pay good money to go to sporting events it is to see a contest, not to see some idiot trying to draw attention to himself by prancing about and flashing his genitals. Fortunately it has never happened at any match I have been to. If it occurred at a football match I would be on the phone to the police chief like a shot demanding that action was taken under, for example, section 4 of the Football (Offences) Act 1991.

Nude in the North

"Nudists pay taxes too. So we also pay for the public places. Shouldn't we have the right to use them as we wish ?"

People who like opera (like me!) also pay taxes. But that doesn't give me the right to have it blaring out of a ghettoblaster in my local park on a pleasant Sunday afternoon, now does it?

"If we banned everyone that others thought were offensive from public places , they would be pretty lonely places."

You can't ban every conceivable activity that someone just may find offensive. I never suggested you could. So you have to ban those activities that a sizeable proportion of the population find offensive.

A possible rule of thumb here might be:

Is the number who want to practice this 'activity' greater than the number who are likely to be offended or upset by it?

If YES then it should be allowed.

If NO then it should be banned.

"Here's a heads up for you. Nudity is Legal EVERYWHERE on this planet!"

I wonder if there are any vacancies for law lecturers on Mars /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Stu

[Nude in the North]

"Nudists pay taxes too. So we also pay for the public places. Shouldn't we have the right to use them as we wish ?"

People who like opera (like me!) also pay taxes. But that doesn't give me the right to have it blaring out of a ghettoblaster in my local park on a pleasant Sunday afternoon, now does it?
Since when does a Human Body Blare ? I'm sure nobody would complain if you listened to your music at a level comparable to everyone elses music.

"If we banned everyone that others thought were offensive from public places , they would be pretty lonely places."

You can't ban every conceivable activity that someone just may find offensive. I never suggested you could. So you have to ban those activities that a sizeable proportion of the population find offensive.
Why Not? And if this is true why pick on Nudity? It's harmless and easily avoided. Just divert your eyes if you don't want to see .

A possible rule of thumb here might be:

Is the number who want to practice this 'activity' greater than the number who are likely to be offended or upset by it?

If YES then it should be allowed.

If NO then it should be banned.
Then Nudity should be Allowed. Thanks!

"Here's a heads up for you. Nudity is Legal EVERYWHERE on this planet!"

I wonder if there are any vacancies for law lecturers on Mars
Thinking about returning home? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Atleast you can be sure you won't find anything that offends you there.

[MikeJB]

Mike

"what do you think would cause more of a scene for you and th4e nudist and the genral public, calling the police, having them come in the park, sirens blaring, yelling for the guy to geton the ground, possibly roughing him up a bit",

So that's how you think the British bobby operates, do you? Really, Mike, you should get out more - out of your country I mean! Everywhere isn't like America. In most places our police don't carry guns - and they wouldn't have a clue how to use them if they did!
------------------------------------------------

I was just asking what would you rather do? Let the nudist keep walking and keep the quiet serenity of the park intact or call the police simply because you disagree with his actions and possibly cause a bigger scene and more discomfort to everyone there than the nudist did. Besides its better for a kid to see a nudist going for a little jog than seeing him shoved into a police car like some petty criminal, I mean I think thatd warp the kids judgement more. Theyd grow up seeing the naked body as a dirty criminal thing, weither it was in public or not. I mean I know you dont want anyone to cause a scene but who would be doing it more the naked jogger or the police coming to arrest the jogger in front of little kids???? Besides that would basically give the media more fuel for its "anti nudity" campaign, which would probably mean that theyd want to get rid of all nudity, including private clubs because they would say that "if he is getting arrested for being nude, doesnt that tell you that all nudity is bad?" I mean the public would beleive that and itd hurt us nudists who do our lifestyle privately. I mean im not against your "public Nudity is illegal" opinion, im just asking which youd have your kids see or anyone in your community that just wants to enjoy a quiet day at the park. I mean sometimes bad things happen and the police DO invade people's enjoyment of public facilities but dont you think that youd only wanna call the police if it was a real crime going on, I mean would it be worth it to you and the other people at the park?

-------------------------------------------------
"if they wanna cause a scene, thats their business but it doesnt mean you should".

I value the fact that I can take my daughter to the park just around the corner from my home. I don't intend to allow a precedent to be set that could result in the experience being spoiled, or my daughter, my wife, my neighbours etc being shocked, because of the selfishness of a small number of others.
-------------------------------------------------

Im sure most parks are big and any nudists that would be there would be few and far between, besides your daughter seeing a nude man/woman in a park would not harm her, I mean you could just explain that the person is comfortable exercising in the nude, seems like a rather harmless thing to me, nothing to call the police over and cause a bigger ruckus.

-------------------------------------------------
"One example of unexpected public nudity is streaking, particularly at sports venues.
I suppose it's a bit hard to accurately judge, but that does not appear to create large-scale offence".

It depends on the circumstances. But there are specific (and quite serious) offences concerning behaving in a manner that disrupts a sporting event.
-------------------------------------------------

Yeah but some nudists ARE also streakers and some do it just for the sheer thrill of running before a large crowd naked, I think what really makes it look bad is if people come in there and arrest him in front of all those people, cuz sometimes they dont do it very nicely, I think they oughta wait till he gets out of thw view of the crowd before making the arrest and just do it quietly and discreetly so that they dont put real nudists in a bad light. Im sure someplaces besides trespassing on the feild and possibly indecent exposure im sure the guy wouldnt have that much trouble, especially if he explained his intentions. Not all streakers at ballgames are illegal and sometimes the feild opely supports people who streak during intercession, I mean im sure lots of people who go to ballgames would enjoy it and at least its nudity that isnt sexual in nature.

------------------------------------------------
"My suggestion is that, those who want to streak, be invited to do so all together during an interval, so as not to disrupt play."

You don't actually have to 'disrupt play'. Unauthorised entry to the playing field is enough over here to put you in prison. Then they can get a lifetime ban from ALL sportsgrounds. Nice one, huh?
-------------------------------------------------

I just meant that its better to do it during the interval than during the game, I didnt say there wouldnt be any consequences to it. I still support streaking though, I think its fun. Besides running nude is healthy for you and he could just say he was promoting some sort of exercise plan or something. I mean that sounds legitimate. Its always good to encourage people to run.

-------------------------------------------------
"but these people who do dare to do this, I admire them for their courage"

These people aren't nudists, or supporters of nudist rights. They're just idiots. The only reason they do it is to cause shock and offence. If nobody was bothered by it they wouldn't do it. In my book that makes them antisocial and irresponsible people who deserve to be behind bars.
-------------------------------------------------

Just like nudists who are not all good, streakers have their bad apples and good apples, it isnt fair to stereotype them all because of a few perverts that give them a bad name and arresting the person is a little harsh. How exactly could they ban this guy from sporting events, they dont even usually check for ID or anything???????


-----------------------------------------------

Rex

"To give Stu his due, [Hey Mateo, that sounds like the first line of a poem!] presumably he would take note of the warning and not watch."

Thank you, Rex. I hardly ever watch TV thesedays and, before watching any movies or dramas, I look out for warnings. So long as they warn me, and it's after 10pm, I don't care what they show on TV.
-------------------------------------------------

Why is it always the media's job to do the work of the parent? I mean parents are just lazy these days and should be around more and watch their kids and educate them instead of passing their roles to the school and the media. I think most parents have enough sense to know weither a show is bad for a kid or not and can keep them from watching it and they have tv blockers that can censor certain things that happen on tv so even when they areint around, the parents can know they are watching something that is best for their child. What I find is questionable is they censor more nudity than violence. I mean id rather censor the violence because its actually harmful to kids, nudity isnt and can actually be beneficial, as long as its like nonsexual nudity or something on a documentary.

-------------------------------------------------
MikeJB

"Yeah I think Stu would keep coming back again and again and again especially if he knew someone was streaking there just for the sole fact that he would want to find some offense to get him with when he complained to someone."

That's quite insulting, Mike, and something you cannot substantiate. I avoid nudity - I don't go looking for it just to complain! Why should I try to see something that makes me sick?
-------------------------------------------------

If you avoid nudity and dont like it so much then why are you here where you can be exposed to nudity and people who like it???????

------------------------------------------------
"I find it funny how he doesnt like nudity but yet supports more nudist resorts and thinks other people being nude as long as they are in private as ok".

Yup. I don't like motor-racing and I would object if they used my street as a racetrack. But that doesn't mean I don't think there should be proper facilities for the thousands of people who do enjoy watching this sport.
------------------------------------------------

I think it would be hard to race a car really fast down a small narrow street and even if it was big im sure the city would have restrictions on how fast cars can go, etc. Racing down a street is different from nudism. So you basically want to be like a racist and segregate those people you find who have lifestyles you find questionable so you dont have to deal with them in a mature way? That sounds rather demeaning to me.

----------------------------------------------
Naturism at naturist resorts is a harmless passtime, lifestyle, call it what you will. I have said that there aren't enough places for naturists to use and I support there being more. Just because I personally don't want to go to any of them doesn't make me a hypocrite - it makes me considerate for others - including those who are very different from myself.
-------------------------------------------------

If you think nudity is so harmless there then why does it turn into something that would shock people or be indecent to them? Most things that are inherently good dont change from place to place that they go. So nudity at a resort is just as harmless as nudity in public. I mean why should we segregate a nbunch of good honest people just because they wont put clothes on?


-------------------------------------------------
"...if he really meant what he said hed get his facts straight."

What "facts"?
-------------------------------------------------

All those laws and other facts that most people here actually know are false and they have their own facts to back that up.

------------------------------------------------
"...so if someone does streak then everyone who sees it wont mind because they saw the sign before coming in and have nothing to complain about".

When pay good money to go to sporting events it is to see a contest, not to see some idiot trying to draw attention to himself by prancing about and flashing his genitals. Fortunately it has never happened at any match I have been to. If it occurred at a football match I would be on the phone to the police chief like a shot demanding that action was taken under, for example, section 4 of the Football (Offences) Act 1991.
-------------------------------------------------


Most nudists wouldnt flash their genitals, that would be indecent and that would allow someone to arrest them.

-------------------------------------------------
Nude in the North

"Nudists pay taxes too. So we also pay for the public places. Shouldn't we have the right to use them as we wish ?"

People who like opera (like me!) also pay taxes. But that doesn't give me the right to have it blaring out of a ghettoblaster in my local park on a pleasant Sunday afternoon, now does it?
-------------------------------------------------

Why? People can blair their radios during the day as loud as they want and till a certain time you cant do anything about it, at least over here. So just because you dont like something doesnt mean you have to deny others the right to enjoy it.

------------------------------------------------
"If we banned everyone that others thought were offensive from public places , they would be pretty lonely places."

You can't ban every conceivable activity that someone just may find offensive. I never suggested you could. So you have to ban those activities that a sizeable proportion of the population find offensive.
------------------------------------------------

That could mean alot of things though stu, I dont think you wanna go there.

-------------------------------------------------
A possible rule of thumb here might be:

Is the number who want to practice this 'activity' greater than the number who are likely to be offended or upset by it?

If YES then it should be allowed.

If NO then it should be banned.

"Here's a heads up for you. Nudity is Legal EVERYWHERE on this planet!"

I wonder if there are any vacancies for law lecturers on Mars

Stu

------------------------------------------------- Not really Stu, those martians dont like people who are against nudity or did you know that they go around everywhere naked?????