Is Nudity in America Dead?

[Davin]

The Nude Freedom Blog posted this today:

Is nudity in America dead? Killed by a reactionary theocratic government who slowly erodes our civil freedoms in the name of "safety." Or was it the internet perverts who transformed the natural into the obscene? Maybe it was the general public who's more worried about status and what they wear? Or is it the holier than thou, holy rollers who view God's own creation as sinful?

Also, the number of young adults enjoying nude recreation is on the decline.

There is Government and self-censorship of nudity in media.

It seems that US doesn't tolerate nudity as much as the European countries do and we also have he problem of pervets here.

[TigerTeam]

Originally posted by David77:
Since I am an old man age 81, I can take the long view and say that nudity certainly is not dead but flourshing, as compared to the past. Also, sex in no longer a "hush-hush" word.
Consider these factors that did not exist when I was a child;


<LI>Condoms become common "under the counter items" out of sight then, as they are no longer illegal in the USA (as of 1918).

<LI>Sex information is freely give on TV, such as by Sue Johanson on the "Talk Sex" show on the "Oxygen channel" on Sunday nights.

<LI>Plunging necklines, showing much of the breasts, are no longer shocking to most persons, but is considered high fashion.

<LI>Nudity freely shown on the internet.

I will think of some more and will add to the list.

With all due respect to your elder statesman status as an octagenerian nudist, the list is great except for these items above.

Condom availability only increases the likelihood of sex among non marrieds. If married people need a condom, they have no problem asking the pharmacist. True nudism should be about reducing illicit and premarital sex I would think.

Sex info on TV - how is this related to the growth of nudism?

Plunging necklines - how is this good for a genuine appreciateion of the human body. They only accentuate and sexualize the breasts.

Nudity freely shown on the internet - most (not all) of it is porn related I think.


You know, if nudism must grow within the context of relaxed moral attitudes, then we haven't really gained much I think.

[Rabid_Clam]

True nudism does not have to be about reduction of any kind of sex, it is about nudism, the freedom from textiles. Sex is not any part of the focus any more than sex be a part of a bowling team or family reunion. Quite simply sex is not part of social nudism ! Any resort will teach you that much!

[Illinois07]

Nudity's good reputation is almost dead, because nudity within the family is confused with child abuse, and public social nudism is confused with exhibitionism, and can earn you a place on the sexual predator list. Here in the US, nudism/naturism is becoming less acceptable except in certain places in the SW states & the East coast.

[Vadik2]

I sure hope that nudity isn't dead. I always wanted to find a place where its accepted to be casually nude all the time. There has to be some place like this in America.

[Pete Knight]

This is not peculiar to the USA, here in Britain we have the PC zealots who try to read something into a situation, misguided by their own warps moral standards, take for instance the newly appointed manager of the local council sports centre who decided that the regular nudist swim should not include children because they were (In his view.) at risk, the council child protection officer was consulted and he agreed as a result children were banned from attending.
This was all over turned eventually after a long battle and loads of publicity, the council finally decided that the children were at no more risk than the children that attend the textile swims, indeed the nudist children were there with their parents and considered safer.
As a result of one mans strange moral opinion a lot of upset was caused, but the nudist swim organisers fought back and won the day, how many cases have not been fought, leaving the PC zealots to mount a number of cases as testimony to their beliefs, unchallenged they think they are right.

We often see "experts" quoted in cases of children in nudism, or indeed the morality of nudism itself, but these so called "experts" are human beings who allow personal opinion to colour their thinking, despite all the teachings of a university education the childhood upbringing can and does affect their judgment. So a strict religious upbringing by parents with body shame can and does affect the outcome of "expert" testimony, but if challenged they can be proved wrong, as in a couple of cases here in the UK.

Stand up for yourself and your rights, don't let narrow minded people control your lives with the PC crap.

Pete Knight

[Stu2630]

Generally, I agree with what Pete says. The current politically correct, paedophile-obsessed environment is not conducive to living in a free and tolerant society and should be challenged, regardless of the qualifications or supposed eminence in child development of some of these commentators. You have the right to bring up your own children to your own beliefs, attitudes and values and it is your decision whether that upbringing will or will not include nudism. The textile majority should facilitate nudism so far as possible and should not interfere with the way nudists wish to raise their own kids, so long as there is no demonstrable harm caused to them.

Naturally, the same applies to those of us who choose to bring up our children in such a way that they never encounter adult nudity.

Stu

[Dario Western]

Stu,

Can you give us 205 reasons why children should not encounter adult nudity?

[Sanslines]

Nudity is not yet dead in American but it is graying and slowely dying out. The younger generations are generally not interested in nudism and this is where the future of nudism lies. There are many reasons for this and some include that nudism is viewed as more of a leisure activity for retired folks. The younger folks are too busy with family, career, and life's goals to have time leftover for many leisure activities. Society in general has also changed and the main thrust of society now is geared more towards work, earning money, and living a consumer oriented and material based existance.

[Stu2630]

Stu,

Can you give us 205 reasons why children should not encounter adult nudity?

Dario

I don't need 205 reasons to do anything - just one good one.

I have not said "children should not encounter adult nudity" - I am fine about other people's children seeing nudity if their parents are OK with that. I am just not OK with my own kids seeing it. There are a couple of reasons for that which are tied in with our own attitude to nudity. The dominant reason is that we feel nudity should only occur in private - it is something which belongs in the domain of the intimate. We don't want our children to think that it is normal or acceptable outside of that context. Another reason is we don't want them to appreciate the full details of the anatomical differences between the sexes because that will indicate to them how sexual relations happen. That's not something we want to happen until they reach puberty or beyond. Now I understand that many people disagree with our outlook in this regard, and I am prepared to respect their position on that. I simply ask for others to return the favour and respect our position.

Returning to the main topic - I can see that nudism, like many other types of recreation, seems to ebb and flow. It may be the case that in America, it is seen as something practised by older people - and consequently less attractive people. On top of that, because nudity, especially of extremely attractive people, is so readily available on the Internet and other forms of media, it has lost some of its "forbidden fruit" appeal; its mystique. If these assessments are right, the young are bound to shun it as being uncool, passé and of little interest. But what's the problem is that IS the case? If the younger generation don't want to, so what? If it eventually dies out completely - so what? You can still practise it for as long as you draw breath and when you aren't here any more, then it won't be your world any more.

Stu

[Illinois07]

Sanslines you hit the nail on the head in your articulate post on this thread. I would also add that parents today are over-protective of their children, and when any talk of nudism comes up they sometimes seek to restrict it or ban it completely for fear of the negative effect that it might have on their children.

[WNYjoe24]

Sanslines, you make a valid point about nudism greying in America.
But I think you miss out on why.

Other threads have existed in the past on that. In my opinion, best summarized by time, interest, money, political correctness, activities to do, etc.
I am in my 40s, and find many of the people at nudist camps to be generally in their 50's and 60's. I am a firm believer in the idea of finding new ways to interest young people.

I participated in a Spencer Tunick shoot a few years ago in Cleveland. I also am a practicing Pagan. We go to various festivals every year, including one called "Starwood" This is held at a clothing optional park in NYS and gets week long attendance in excess of 2,000 people.

Both experiences have shown me several things:
1) Some people can not or will not take off their clothes.
2) Often times for reasons of body acceptance, scars, weight, etc
(however valid the reasons are in our minds being irrellevant)
3) Sometimes things like 90 degree weather will prevail
Or going swimming with several others who all go nude
4) The general acceptance level grows by being exposed to nudity
5) And this seems to have no relation to age!!

But unfortunately, there are some people who will never "take the plunge."
Someone (I think in this thread) said that very eloquently to Stu2360 recently. In short, that is your choice and your loss. Others have reasons not quite on the same level as Stu, but our society has created a ridiculous double standard:

It is great to see nudity in the media: movies, TV, etc.
It is great when the nude person is a big star...
It is great when he or she has a "great body"

...but...

A normal person with a few pounds at the nearby beach on a Sunday afternoon is a problem.

Go figure. And yet we have so many crimes of rape, torture, abuse, etc!

My opionion on how to fix this is to be willing to stand up when needed. When things like the woman kicked out of a pool for breastfeeding (another thread) occur, it needs to come back all the way to the YMCA sending out a letter stating that what was done is wrong.

Otherwise, we end up always looking over our back and losing all of the pleasure in lfe because "somebody MIGHT be offended." There is a certain point where we need to push back and say "they need to mature and realize they are being offended for no real reason."

Joe

[alfredr]

I don't know, but maybe nudism is for middle-aged and above people. All the reasons given why younger folks stay away probably applied to many of us who now say, "why did I wait so long?" Maybe they will grow into it as we did? The teen, twenty or thirty-something who is comfortable enough with their body to not see it as mainly a sex object and comfortable enough with their financial situation and with their tolerance to peer pressure, et cetera, is quite rare.

Seeds planted now may grow into nudists in the future, but they won't be young ones then.

Alfred

[MoonShadow]

I am going to say as far as my perspective and experience that nudity is not dead in the US. You see all forms of it in advertising, movies, and I am not even talking about the mega-billion dollar porn industry. But organized nudity for those who choose it as a lifestyle is today as it has been, a small minority of individuals who enjoy the lifestyle. The lifestyle organizations (nudism-not the sex lifestyles which involve nudity) are not recruiting and promoting nudism as a lifestyle. They are not recruiting and introducing people to the lifestyle as I think they should. I agree with Sanslines it is graying and dying out.

You don't recruit individuals into nudity with the selling of videos (most of them are purchased by those who think it is porn and then buy the videos to get their jollies off or whatever they would buy the video for. But note, this is another topic - what is it with the selling of videos about nudism?) Nudist organizations need to be aggressively promoting, educating, and recruiting members from all age groups, not just the young. The more who discover the wonder and enjoyment of being natural will then promote it themselves. Each of us on this forum promote it here and hopefully we do so in our real lives.

[Sanslines]

Joe,

In a small city with two universities, a person would think that Potter's Falls would be overloaded with college students. However, during the past several years, there is nary a college student to be found there. When asked why they (students) don't go to the Falls, the usual reply is 'no real interest' or 'too busy with other things'. If anyone goes there, it is usually once or twice for the entire season. There are also very few older folks who go there and the main reason for this is that the access trails are challenging and require someone to be in some kind of physical shape. Sadly, so many of the older people are just physically unable to walk those trails and hence will no longer go to the Falls. This is also true of other naturist places for many places are secluded and hard to get to. It takes a person of reasonable physical fitness to be able to walk and so many of the older people are just too out of shape. Black's Beach is a prime example of a difficult trail that prevents people who are out of shape from reaching that beach. There has even been the occassional heart attack that has occured on that trail. Only time will tell if a future young generation rediscovers and becomes interested in nature and naturism again. The present younger generation is certainly far too busy with staying focused on a career path so that they can maxamize their earnings. Work, money, buying things.........this is what is of most importance to Gen Y and little if any time is left for leisure activities that may include naturism.

[Sanslines]

Moonshadow,

You bring up an interesting point. Is nudism to be experienced (in real life) in some way, shape, or form ie at a club, beach, at home, etc or is it to be passively watched in videos? Is life meant to be lived and experienced or is it meant to be observed and watched?

[Stu2630]

But unfortunately, there are some people who will never "take the plunge."Joe

Why is it unfortunate? Is it such a bad thing that we have a society which facilitates nudity for the minority who want it while also protecting the sensibilities of those who are offended by it? Is it so surprising that nudity, as with other forms of recreation, is loved by some people but others are less keen on it and some positively detest it? Surely we should be celebrating our differences. The problem with people who harbour a strong enthusiasm for some activity, interest of lifestyle is that think there is something wrong with those who do not appreciate it as they do.

It's not hypocrisy for someone to see nudity represented in a film and be comfortable with it while being uncomfortable seeing it in the street or on a beach because the acceptance of nudity, and certain other things, are context-dependent. Sex is a good example. We see sex depicted in a cinema (movie theater) and we can be OK with that, but if we see a couple indulging in the same act on the seat next to us during the intermission, we find that unacceptable.

I would be optimistic about the future if I were a nudist. There are setbacks but there are also new opportunities. Nudists in America, and elsewhere, need to have a clear idea about what they want to achieve - and why. If nudism in its present form dies out - so what? Some people will always want to take their clothes off and so its likely there will always be opportunities for them to do that. So long as the opportunities don't diminish - what's the problem?

Stu

[Sanslines]

Stu,

I think that you are misinterpreting what Joe said based upon your own irrational fears of nudism. Joe is a nudist who is enthusiastic about nudism. He is expressing his viewpoints as to why nudism has not grown based upon his own personal experiences. He obviously sees nudism as a healthy activity as do many of us in this forum. He is obviously saddened to see that some people will never experience what he (as well as others in this forum) consider to be a healthy activity. I consider nudists to be individuals who are actually much more mature that the majority of society. In many cases, they have grown to come to terms with their bodies and themselves and reject many of the money making perversions and distortions that the media uses in order to sell product and make money. I do not see this a a negative thing at all. The situation is indeed unfortunate when you consider from the perspective of those who understand the many benefits of nudism, including maturity, self acceptance, understanding of and rejection of the ways in which the media manipulates society by relating everything to sex so that they can sell more product, etc.

In your case, you may never come to terms with your own body and subsequently with yourself. That is your decision and you certainly can live your life as you see fit. You certainly do not need to fear seeing naked people on every street corner for society will not tolerate that. You certainly do not need to have any fear of ever seeing a naked person in society for society overall presently does not accept nudism. In short, your sensibilities are very well protected. Your situation is indeed very different from those who may just not be interested in nudism. Yours is fueled by some rather serious fears and body issues. Please understand that these statements are not meant as insult, but as observation and fact.

I am not really sure why you seem to be on this mission to keep reminding this forum about the sensibilities of non nudists. We are all aware of that as well as the very limited legal opportunities availible for enjoying nudism. Many of us are saddened that so many in our society will never mature to the point where they can outgrow the many distortions and misperceptions concerning the human body.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

If you look again at my last post, you will see that it was not aimed at "reminding this forum about the sensibilities of non nudists" - I was addressing a couple of points Joe made and commenting on the main topic of this thread, i.e. is nudism dead in America.

The first point was that we are all different and that is something good - it's not something either nudists or non-nudists should fear or resist. You are entitled to your point of view that accepting the naked body is "healthy" and "mature", but I see it in a different way. Resistance to the sight of nakedness and being naked in the presence of others is a cultural phenomenon. So long as it is not taken to extreme, it is neither healthy nor unhealthy: neither mature nor immature. Human beings are culturally conditioned creatures and so long as that conditioning does not have an adverse effect on a person's well-being, then not only is it harmless, it is something that should be respected. Because cultural mores are not determined by strictly logical criteria, they are easy targets for accusations of hypocrisy. But that's both unfair and narrow-sighted. As I said, nudity is accepted in our society in certain contexts and there are cultural taboos which discourage it outside of those contexts. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

Lastly, you talk about society not having the maturity to "outgrow the many distortions and misperceptions concerning the human body". I believe that is a nudist myth which links into the equally erroneous "body shame" hypothesis. It is wrong because it fails to take account of the "context" element which I have referred to many times. My eldest daughter is about to qualify as a doctor - she is presently working in the urology department of a large hospital. Prior to that, she worked in the gynæcology department. She daily sees the most intimate parts of her patients - people who were often complete strangers to her minutes before. It causes her no discomfort or offence because the exposure of these body parts is expectable and entirely within context. But if she saw a man in the local park sunbathing naked, she would find that offensive and would call the police. Similarly, being a sportswoman, she uses the showers and sauna at her university sports club and is content for other women to see her naked in that situation - but that does not mean she would be comfortable getting naked on a nudist beach. How can a nudist attribute that to "body shame" or "immaturity"? It is nothing more than an expression of our particular culture's norms and taboos.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Stu,

In response to your last reply, many people have the ability to question their cultural norms and either accept them or not. Some blindly accept their cultural norms and more or less do as society tells them to do. One form of maturity and demonstration of wisdom is to ponder life and to question why we all do the things that we do in life. Do we all just blindly accept things as they are or do we question and then find our own way in life regardless of whether this decision is popular? Many nudists have thought about and looked beyond the popular (mis)perceptions of nudism. Society in general does not accept nudism and the mass media equates nudism with sex. This message is sent day and night to people and many have accepted this without giving it a second thought. Nudists, however, reject these notions and have decided upon a different path in life. Life is to be lived and involves growth and continued understanding. Life involves some form of continuous education. Some people continue to challenge themselves throughout their lives and to question everything that is before them. Others stop growing and accept life as society tells them to live it. Life is also filled with hypocrisy, and a society that focuses upon something that is really harmless and inconsequential while ignoring the much more serious problems is guilty of pettiness and hypocrisy. Nudists are more mature because they have grown to understand and to accept on their own terms that nudism can (as with anything in life) be a very healthy thing that is not as it is portrayed in the popular media ie a means to sell product and make profit.

[Sanslines]

Stu,

In reply to your statements about your daughter, I would seriously hope that she has better things to do with her time rather then call the police for what most would consider a minor nuisance at best. This is where maturity and experience in life come into play. Those who have experienced life and lived through many ups and downs can put events into context. If the biggest concern that a person has to deal with in life is if some man is sunbathing nude in a secluded area of a park, then that person should count themselves very lucky. Your daughter may be personally offended, but it is not always about her and her alone. She always has the option of looking the other way and continuing on her way. As for her getting naked on a beach, she can of course do as she chooses. However, a proper education should teach everyone to think and to question everything in life. Perhaps she has never sat down and spent time thinking why she does the things that she does in life or why she reacts to certain events the way that she does. Maturity and personal growth in life include questioning and overcoming difficulties and obstacles. Accepting one's so called personal cultural norms without any understanding and question can be considered by many as a cop out.

As for reminding this forum about the 'sensibilities of non nudists', I do not think that you are even aware that you either directly or very subtly remind this forum each and every chance that you get.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

To avoid hijacking this thread, I have replied by starting a new thread under "miscellaneous".

Stu

[Sanslines]

Stu,

I wouldn't consider this discussion to be 'hyjacking this thread' as thread topics do tend to drift ever so slightly from the original point of discussion. However, moving this topic to another thread is also fine.

[benakkied]

After I found several couples in my Hot tub nude and I did not know they were nudists . Nudism isn't dead in my life.

[Odie]

I used to live in Vermont. I had a home on 7 wooded acres at the end of a dead end dirt road. I had friends who didn't mind my nidity, friends that would join in. It was private and perfect. I didn't belong to any organizations or visit clubs. I didn't feel the need. I would occasionaly browse nudist sites like this. But again, I just didn't feel the need to participate. To me, nudity was just part of my everyday life. The I moved to Florida and into an apartment (for now). The lack of privacy caused me to seek places where I could enjoy the warm FL sunshine. So why is nudism dead in America? I don't know the history of nudism in America and whether or not it is 'dead', but I can tell you my experience of simply finding a place to visit or people to spend time with is much more difficult than I had expected. First, nudists seem to be older people. I supposed in part because we get more comfortable with ourselves as we get older. We are less concerend about appearence, reputation, etc as we get older. So, at age 37, I am in this odd gray area of not young and not old. I have also found that many clubs/resorts have visitation and membership policies that are not friendly. I have to scroll through a page of everything I cannot do before paying to not do them. I understand, from a business standpoint, they have to protect themselves and their members/guests, but maybe a more posative approach should be considered. Add to that that I am often considered 'single' because my partner is not a nudist and does not join me. Add to that addition that I am a gay male and I might as well stay home. I'm guilty of everything bad that has ever happened to someone before even given a chance to show otherwise.

To most, nudism is more of a philosophy of how to live ones life. It's not just about being naked, it's about being free. But to the owner of a resort or club, we are the customer. Nudists, like customers, are a diverse group of people from all walks of life economically, politically, ethnically, and spiritually. Successful business owners look past their personal interests and cater to the public needs. If nudism dies out in America, it will be because the people running the nudist groups or organizations isolated themselves rather than listen to what we are seeking.

[EricNY]

If nudism dies out in America, it will be because the people running the nudist groups or organizations isolated themselves rather than listen to what we are seeking.


Interesting....that is a comment I would like to see expanded upon.

I liked what you said here Odie To most, nudism is more of a philosophy of how to live ones life. It's not just about being naked, it's about being free

[Stu2630]

Odie

To most, nudism is more of a philosophy of how to live ones life. It's not just about being naked, it's about being free.

I have seen such views expressed before - I find them interesting , but a bit vague.
If nudism is a philosophy, apart from nakedness, what are its tenets? And, again aside from the nakedness, how do you live your life differently to me?
If nudism is more than "just about being naked", why is it not possible to adopt the other philosophical and lifestyle aspects but without the nudity, and still consider yourself to be a nudist?
Why am I not "free" because I want to wear a pair of shorts whereas you are free because you don't?If nudism is really offering an alternative and better lifestyle, these are questions for which nudists need to have clear answers.

Zevie

If you find my posts irritating, why do you feel the need to read them?

Stu

[EricNY]

Posts that were off topic have been removed and relocated HERE (http://www.clothesfreeforum.com/showthread.php?p=171322#post171322) For what will probably be a very short lived thread


Apologies for the interruption of these posts on this excellent conversation!

[Zevei]

Odie



I have seen such views expressed before - I find them interesting , but a bit vague.
If nudism is a philosophy, apart from nakedness, what are its tenets? And, again aside from the nakedness, how do you live your life differently to me?
If nudism is more than "just about being naked", why is it not possible to adopt the other philosophical and lifestyle aspects but without the nudity, and still consider yourself to be a nudist?
Why am I not "free" because I want to wear a pair of shorts whereas you are free because you don't?If nudism is really offering an alternative and better lifestyle, these are questions for which nudists need to have clear answers.

Zevie

If you find my posts irritating, why do you feel the need to read them?

Stu

I DON'T NEED TO READ THEM STU, THEY ARE JUST THERE, KINDA LIKE WARTS.
THIS IS THE LAST MESSAGE OF YOURS THAT I INTEND TO READ AS I'M PUTTING YOU ON IGNORE AS ONE OF THE MODERATORS SUGGESTED.

[nudismguy]

Nudity will never be dead, anywhere in the world. It is a basic human right to be nude. The nudist movement, however, is suffering from a lack of infusion of young people and could very well fade into irrelevancy in the coming years.

[Odie]

I've decided to research the visitation and membership policies of several resorts and clubs to see if my earlier post has any "scientific" basis. I'll let you all know what I discover.

[smoothdnbelow]

First my thanks to Cory for a wonderful site. I'm not exactly sure why people have something against nudity. People have to be comfortable with their own bodies and most people associate nudity with some form of sexual innuendo. I've been a naturists for quite awhile now and some folks aren't comfortable with it. My congrats to all you wonderful people for your desire to spend your time naturally.