Burka Versus Bikini

[Sanslines]

http://www.anglofille.com/wp-content/image-headlines/f17aed1c354dcda1ec2df86e93c7ff99.png

13 January, 2009

Thanks to everyone who commented on my previous post (http://www.anglofille.com/2009/01/11/oppressed/): the burka-clad women vs. the bikini models.

There were many ways I could have framed my question. Given that the women in the burkas were from Afghanistan, the question about who is more oppressed inevitably became a discussion of women’s rights. Clearly, as far as human rights for women go, Afghanistan may just be the worst place to live on earth. I could have shown photos of women from Saudi Arabia or Iran (who would most likely be wearing the hijab, rather than burkas), and while those countries are better than Afghanistan, women in those countries are still deprived of many basic human rights, so again the discussion would have focused on rights. As others suggested, I could have shown a woman wearing a burka who lives in Western Europe, but there would have been many questions about that woman, especially regarding how much her life is being controlled by the men in her family. There are women living in religious communities in Western Europe who subjected to the same kinds of controls as women living in Afghanistan.
For my purposes, I posted these two photos because I am interested in issues of body image. I’ve been thinking about what is more oppressive - covering your body or displaying it. When we see the women who are covered, many people automatically assume that the women are being subjected to some sort of patriarchal control, from their government, culture, religion and families. When we see the photo of the swimsuit models, I would argue that most people do not assume something similar - that these women are being subjected to a form of patriarchal control. After all, no one is pointing a gun at their heads forcing them to pose half-naked on the front of a men’s sports magazine. And that’s true. Unlike the women in Afghanistan, who are literally having guns pointed at them, the models are there by choice. Not only that, but countless women would love to be in their place. The patriarchal control of the swimsuit models, and those who wish to be in their place, is not obvious to many, making it much more insidious.

In our capitalist patriarchal system, in which women’s bodies and sexuality are commodities, the women on the cover of Sports Illustrated represent the societal ideal for women:

They are all white.
They are all young.
They are all beautiful according to the societal standard.
They are all thin and not only that, but likely well underweight, given their height.
They are all tall.
They all have large breasts.
They have no noticeable hips or waist.
Almost all of them have blonde hair.
Their stance in the photo is passive, rather than assertive.
They are portrayed as both “slutty” (given that they are half-naked) but also as “good girls” because they are covering their breasts.

The vast majority of Western women will never fit the beauty ideal shown in this image. If you’re not young and white, you’re immediately discarded. [Sure, there's room for a few light-skinned black women with very caucasian features, but they're merely tokens.] Very few young white women fit this ideal either. Statistically speaking, the women in this photograph are freaks. And even the women in the photograph do not naturally fit this profile. I would bet that virtually all of them have eating disorders. I would define eating disorders as including starvation diets (and dieting at all when you are already underweight), bulimia, anorexia and abusing nicotine and other drugs to suppress your appetite. While there are obviously people who are naturally very thin, these women are likely extremely thin in person - the camera does add ten pounds at least. I used to work in fashion magazines and saw some models in person and I was always shocked at how thin they were. Many of these women have also had plastic surgery, most likely breast implants but also liposuction and who knows what else. Then of course there are the more standard treatments - hair dye, cosmetic dentistry and the like.

Despite the fact that these women come closer than most women ever will to fitting the beauty ideal they represent - through a combination of genetics, dieting, plastic surgery and other means - they’re still not good enough. Before this photograph was taken, they were subjected to hours and hours of hair and make-up by top professionals. Still, that’s not enough. This cover has, without a doubt, been subjected to extensive airbrushing. So it’s clear that no human woman can ever fit this ideal. It is, thus, imaginary, but the danger is that it appears very real.

The women in this photograph will not fit this ideal forever. When they get “old” it’s all over for them. They will be kicked aside and replaced with a younger version. If they gain weight, they’re finished as well. So they must fight the signs of aging and keep on dieting and doing everything they can so that they are still considered desirable. Whether they are considered desirable isn’t up to them - that’s for others to decide. They serve their masters at their masters’ discretion.

Of course, the images of such women oppress other women on a wide scale. If as a woman you do not meet this beauty ideal because you aren’t white, because you are fat (either slightly fat or extremely fat), because you are “old,” because you have a big nose, because you have a big butt, because you have small breasts, because you are too skinny, because you’re not considered “hot,” etc., etc., you may feel that there is something wrong with you, that are you unattractive, that you are not a real woman. And you may feel this every single day of your waking life, which will effect your self-esteem in a disastrous way. Not only that, you will expend a tremendous amount of money and energy trying to fix yourself, rather than spending those resources on something worthwhile.

As women, we internalize these ideals from the time we are very young and they are reinforced over and over again when we see images like the Sports Illustrated cover, which are everywhere. Many women spend their lives chasing an ideal they will never achieve. Billions of dollars are spent on this pursuit, which greatly benefits the economies of many countries.
If you are very far away from the beauty ideal, then you will face very real discrimination that will affect your life in many negative ways, from employment to relationships. There are women who reject these beauty standards, which is admirable, but even if you reject them, you are still subjected to them by other people, whether you like it or not.

So while in terms of rights there is no comparison between living in Afghanistan and living in a Western country if you are a woman - there is on comparison whatsoever - when it’s boiled down to burka vs. swimsuit, I don’t see much difference. Female bodies are not acceptable as they are - they must be covered up or transformed to meet an external ideal, and both of these represent a prison in their own way.

http://www.anglofille.com/2009/01/13/burka-vs-bikini/

[Boreas]

Interesting question. If the women in Burkhas were in Afghanistan as assumed, then there is no doubt they have likely experienced oppression in their lives. Does that mean the women on the SI cover have not?

I would argue that most of those young women were probably raised to be "pretty" and possibly "sexy". How many of them grew up in the beauty pageant circuit? This is an oppressive environment, in that these women have been taught that they are only valuable if they are pretty. Now, we do not know if they have graduated from med school, or if they are well rounded citizens. Maybe they did not do the beauty pageant circuit, and have managed to get to this level of modelling because somehow they chose this.

If the women in the bikinis have freely chosen that route then have at it! Good on them. Just as, the women in the burkhas may be dressed like that because they chose.

I guess my point is, we cannot know unless we learn more.

[Agde]

Let's be clear. As long as clothing standards for men and women in any given community and situation are equivalent, then it is a community, cultural choice. But when standards are different for men or women, then it is, to use the impact word, oppression. This applies to burkas and bikinis. If women have to cover their faces, then men should too. If women have to cover their breasts, then men should too. This is actually a very simple idea -- equivalent minimum standards in equivalent situations -- choice is about anything at or above the community defined minimum. For example, if you want to wear formal business clothes to the beach, well, er, ok. Community notions of idyllic people is a slightly different issue, but it usually spotlights gender discrimination via exaggeration.

[jon71]

Actually S.I. does not use all white models. While white women, blondes in particular may be over represented they're well shy of 100%. They've even had one or two African-American women for their cover model.

[Sanslines]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg/150px-Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg)



Interpreting veils

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/burka.jpg</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>The burka comes in many variations, but in its most conservative form, it thoroughly covers the face of the person wearing it, leaving only a mesh-like screen to see through. This refugee is wearing the conservative burka that the Taliban regime requires women in Afghanistan to don outdoors. The burka is thought to have originated in the Arabian peninsula and can still be found there today. They are not always as conservative in form as the one shown here and often allow parts of a woman's face to show through.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>The word hijab refers to the variety of styles in which Muslim women use scarves and large pieces of cloth to cover their hair, neck and sometimes shoulders. As shown on this Seattle-area Muslim woman, the hijab often leaves the entire face open. In the United States, the hijab is the most common form of headcovering for Muslim women.</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/student.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/chador.jpg</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>The chador is the full-body cloak Muslim women in Iran are expected to wear outdoors. Depending on how it is designed and on how the woman holds it, the chador may or may not cover the face. The chador was forbidden in Iran under the reign of Mohammad Reza Shah, who was brought to power with help from the United States and sought to modernize the country. After the shah was exiled during the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the chador became required wear for all Iranian women. Many Iranians today subvert their dress-code by wearing Western-style clothing beneath the chador.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>Hindu women also wear a veil, a practice that highlights the fact that veiling is not exclusively Muslim. Traditional and orthodox Hindu women, such as this one, will cover their heads and at least partly obscure their faces in the company of unrelated adult males. Sometimes veiling is accomplished with a loose end of the woman's sari, and sometimes it is done with a scarf-like fabric known as the dupatta.</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/hindu.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/pakistan.jpg</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>Many Pakistani Muslims, such as this one, wear some form of veil. This woman is wearing the nikab along with a bandana that reads, "God is great!" The veil existed before Islam existed, but it has been embraced and spread by the religion. Not all Muslim women wear a veil, but among those who do, styles vary wildly, from simple kerchiefs and elaborate head scarves to full face-and-body coverings.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=463 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>The nikab is the form of Muslim veiling that comes closest to what is actually meant by the English word "veil." English speakers tend to use the word veil as a catch-all term that covers all types of Muslim head and body coverings. The nikab, worn in black by this Moroccan woman, is a veil in the true sense of the word. It covers everything below the bridge of the nose and the upper cheeks, and sometimes also covers the forehead.</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/ui/dot_clear.gif</TD><TD>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/lifestyles/links/morocco.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
ILLUSTRATIONS BY PAUL SCHMID / THE SEATTLE TIMES





http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/lifestyles/links/veils_05.html
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[WNYjoe24]

I have never been to Afghanistan. But I've met "burka women" who live in the United States. In The States, they are not required to cover-up by law; but many continue to do so, by their own choice. And in Afghanistan, I'm sure that many, if not most, of the women feel that they are willingly carrying out their moral/religious obligations by obeying the burka laws.

The way I look at it is that it started as a religious custom, and being such a religious region; "automatically" became actual law. I agree with the idea of opression. Burkas, or other varuiations are a way for men to hide the beauty of their spouse. She's essentially property. But if you hide the atributes, then no one else will want "it." In this case, that translates to me as "men can't keep it in their pants, so we better take away all temptation."

And any "burka women" (now there's a title) living in the U.S. have just been so conditioned to it that it doesn't matter that our laws are more tolerant.

As far as bikinis, I never thought of that before. But let's face it. Look at all of the discussions obn this forum about body acceptance, fake standards, airbrushed models, etc.

Joe

[Smiley]

I wonder whether the veil or face covering is totally due to religious reasons. Look at the area the covering is worn. .and the possible reasons. Blowing dust seems to prevalent in those areas. Could it be a defense against that? I've seen me wear face coverings as well, and not only those that would/could be classed as "terrorist".

So, My question is; is the covering of the face (and long body coverings as well) totally rooted in religious reasons or could there be environmental reasons as well?

[Fitz1980]

For the bikini models; I'll go on record right now as saying that they are in no way shape or form oppressed. First of all every woman on that cover makes more money per year than most of the posters here. I've got a good friend who is a model, who often models bikinis and lingerie. She loves the work, even though she doesn't make near the kind of money that those girls do and has to work bartending jobs on the side to pay the bills.

The way I look at it is that it started as a religious custom, and being such a religious region; "automatically" became actual law. I agree with the idea of opression. Burkas, or other varuiations are a way for men to hide the beauty of their spouse. She's essentially property. But if you hide the atributes, then no one else will want "it." In this case, that translates to me as "men can't keep it in their pants, so we better take away all temptation."


There are plenty of men in western society who think similar things. They're all about looking at other woman's bodies but want their own wife/girlfriend dressed more modestly because "I'm the only one who gets to see your lovelies." They think that it shows respect. I think that it shows jealousy and a total lack of respect.

I wonder whether the veil or face covering is totally due to religious reasons. Look at the area the covering is worn. .and the possible reasons. Blowing dust seems to prevalent in those areas. Could it be a defense against that? I've seen me wear face coverings as well, and not only those that would/could be classed as "terrorist".

So, My question is; is the covering of the face (and long body coverings as well) totally rooted in religious reasons or could there be environmental reasons as well?

I'm not a religious person myself but I think that lots of religious customs evolved out of some practical reason. Before our modern age of food storage and preparedness eating shellfish and pork was dangerous, even though they didn't exactly understand why. It's easier for leaders to tell primitive people "don't eat pork and shell fist because God said so" than "don't eat pork and shell fist because I said so."

I think that if you look at most clothing and where it originated around the world it does seem to be mostly influenced by environmental factors. Tribal societies in tropical regions it seems that people went around more or less naked and tended to be dark skinned. This is true of African tribal societies before European colonization, it was true of American Indian cultures in the equatorial regions (the Caribbean, South and Central America) it's true of Australian Aborigines and other islanders in the Pacific Ocean.

If you look at regions where the Muslim religion came out of (Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the like) even men who are going out in the desert for long periods of time wear head and body coverings to protect them from the sun, think Lawrence of Arabia. As the religion and the religious customs evolved and migrated to others areas the customs went from being practical to being ceremonial. Christianity and Judaism also came out of that region. The bible talks of being naked as being shameful but not in the sexual context that we think of it. Jesus told people to cloth the naked because it was the poorest among them who were naked. In that area you needed to be covered to protect yourself from the desert and you couldn't exactly go down to the salvation army and buy an old t-shirt for 5 bucks.

The Greeks and Romans wore fancy ornate ceremonial robes that are the exact opposite of what Jesus meant when he said to be of modest dress. Modest meaning not trying to draw attention to yourself. By that definition people in their fancy Sunday best are much less modest than a group of naked people.

[Sanslines]

The Burka Debuts in British Hospitals


http://tammybruce.com/bh-thumb.jpg (http://tammybruce.com/bh.jpg)

No problem there. Yeah, I don't see any reason why doctors would need to see the faces of their women patients. Nah. There's never, ever any reason to think that a facial expression might indicate pain or discomfort (another perk for Muslim men, you don't need to see what your women really think of you). There's absolutely no reason to be able to see the mouth and nose of a woman, you know, which might indicate whether or not she's having a breathing problem. And that pesky skin--never, ever does a doctor or nurse need to see what's happening with skin. Let's say if a woman patient is having an allegic reaction to something, those hives that show up. Yuck. Nah, seeing skin is completely unnecessary.
The most important thing is to make sure we pander to the stone-age mentality of 7th century sexist control freaks. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Britain_Islamic_Gown.html)(HT Drudge). Because they say it's their "religion." Because God has told them to treat women like property. And gee, if women are just property to be controlled, I guess we just don't need to give them the same quality of medical care.

Of course, there are also tremendous benefits to implemeting the Burka "Modesty Gown." It tellsMuslim women that the progressive, emancipated West isn't for them, and no matter where they go they will remain enslaved by freakish, backward oppression brought to them in the name of God. For the Western world to allow this to be legitimated is obscene. And for those of you who say it's "culture" and should be respected, apartheid in in South Africa was also their "culture" and that didn't stop the world from demanding it be changed.

What will the British do next to appease their Islamists? Send women to be treated by the vet? And hey, Jews also make Muslims uncomfortable. Maybe next they should ban Jewish doctors from treating Muslims. And heck, while we're at it, let's ban Jews from hospitals all together. Yeah, that's the ticket.

http://tammybruce.com/2006/09/the_burka_debuts.php

[Stu2630]

I think the hijab can look very becoming on a woman. One of my former PhD students was from Jordan and her garb made her look very exotic and appealing.

Stu

[Smiley]

'K. .so the clothes make a person? I'd sort of agree with Stu on this one. .different is exotic? I chat with people from all over the world and have talked with a number of 'em on the phone and have met a few person to person. To me, Aussies are far in front exotic-wise. .gotta LOVE the wordage they use and how they use 'em. But, the reason I interjected was about clothing or lack of. Do clothes make the person or are they worn due to environmental demands/reasons? It makes sense that warm conditions = more skin, cold conditions = more clothes but what are the underlying reasons for the coverup to start with? Religious, tradition, or "just "cuz I was told to / that's the way it is"?

Yup, 'nuther can of worms to explore. . . "Everything has a reason". .can't remember who said that but I feel it's a truism.

[NudeAl]

Okay I'll take a stab at this.

They were originaly conceived of as a protection from the elements and they still serve that role however they have evolved into a statement of status and power the old saw about how clothes make the man. There is more than a grain of truth to that however that is one of the things I find so appealing with nudism you can be talking to a banker or a truck driver and never know it until you get to know the person. So much of who we are is wrapped up in how we dress how we want to project ourselves to the world at large. By undressing we effectivley leave this suit of armor behind and step outside of who we have been before. It is a chance to re-invent yourself or perhaps re-discover who you really are. I know many people who have been defined by their jobs or positions they have held, that sort of disapears when you shed you clothes.

I think to a large degree their are many of us out there who choose to escape from who we are in the world in order to relax and relieve stress. As the economy and other world news continues to add doom and gloom I wouldn't be surprised to see more and more people trying nudism as an escape from there normal lives. I have seen news reports about how the movie industry is seeing a boom for this very reason and I think we could see the same in nudist resorts, provided they keep the costs reasonable.

If you really want to escape from your life leave your clothing behind and enjoy the feeling of being only you.

[Bob S.]

Regarding bikini models: While it is debatable what kind of image they are sending by being so thin, the thing is that these models have chosen a job where being thin is part of the job description. Society will always vary between considering someone too thin and finding the too thin perfect. A few years ago, we had Kate Moss and the Heroin Chic look of extremely thin models. Now, those extremely thin models are banned at some fashion shows for being too thin.

The important aspect of the models is that they have chosen their field with the understanding that they have to maintain their body. There are some jobs that require men to stay clean shaven and those men who want beards understand that those businesses are not going to be open to them.

There is a huge difference between not getting a job because of your looks and not being able to show your body due to laws. I have no problems with any woman who wants to wear a burkha or any religious covering. All I ask is that they have that choice, the same choice that women share in deciding to want to wear a bikini or a one-piece.

In college, I had a female friend who was a Hari Krishna. She wore a covering which consisted of a head scarf (it did not cover her face) and the rest of her body (with sleeves, of course). I liked the garb she wore.

Bob S.

[MoonShadow]

Well, I do have a real problem with any woman wearing a Burka or a head scarf. I have a real problem with any society demeaning women to the point that they must be covered up, thought of as servants, slaves, or worse, not allowed to be educated or to enjoy normal HUMAN activities. I even have a problem with Islamic people in this country who were born as citizens and who decide to become Islamic and the women and men who accept the wearing of burkas and practicing other anti-woman behaviors because of their religion. Suppression and oppression of any race, sex, or any other category is wrong. The burkas are wrong. The head scarves are wrong. And so is any other religion that wants to pigeon hole women and men into certain roles with restrictions and restraints.

[Fitz1980]

The other day I saw a woman in a Burka at the movie theater, to be honest it made me rather uncomfortable. Her husband was wearing jeans and a shirt and she was covered from head to toe (including her face) to go see a movie. Sure that's her "choice" but I just wonder what kind of a home life those two must have, where he goes out dressed like a westerner and she won't show her face to strangers.

I don't have a problem with people dressing in non-western standards. In fact I think that the hijab (head scarf) is quite becoming on many women. Plenty of people wear head coverings for religious, cultural and fashion reasons but I just find the idea that women are told that they HAVE to cover their face in front of strangers disturbing.

I recently saw a picture from the last Bare to Breakers run where a group of women were running nude except for hijabs.

[Shekoucitizen]

There is no right or wrong for being completely covered or naked as a routine matter. It is because of what is right or wrong, dictated by regional habits.

How wrong these habits can appear: I lived in Hong Kong for a while and top free became obvious on Repulse Bay beach and it created a stir.

Then , a few days later, I saw a couple, the man was dressed for the super hot day, with high humidity to boot, while his wife was dressed from head to toe in black, even with gloves, face covered of course, while she dealt with two whiny children. Dad just hang about.All this in a baking hot ferry building.They were NOT Chinese, that is for sure; visitors, immigrants, refugees, who knows?
It is all about different values; what we percieve as normal, is abhorrent somwhere else

[maxnude]

Muslim swimware

[inudist]

Muslim swimware

Don't see any gold medals coming wearing this outfit!!

[naturistoftheyear]

The problem is that this attitude of having women covered up is gaining ground in Europe.
The Islamic extremists want - and get - separate swim hours for men and women, and want their women swimming with the blue outfit in maxnude's picture.
Folks, when this happens in Europe and not just in Afghanistan, you know something is going wrong.

[MoonShadow]

[QUOTE=Fitz1980;230685]The other day I saw a woman in a Burka at the movie theater, to be honest it made me rather uncomfortable. Her husband was wearing jeans and a shirt and she was covered from head to toe (including her face) to go see a movie. Sure that's her "choice" but I just wonder what kind of a home life those two must have, where he goes out dressed like a westerner and she won't show her face to strangers.

/QUOTE]

It's slavery. Her life is to live as a slave and all done as per her religion. And no, it is not her choice. She has been brainwashed by a suppressive religion and culture into slavery. There are factions right here in the US of A. But they are not Muslims -- they are fundamental christians.

[David77]

I kniow devout Muslims who do not wear burkas. They feel that the Koran does not require it.

In the Far East and south Pacific the women generally wear the regular "western style" clothes. There is a difference from the Middle East, for example.