View Full Version : New Stimulus Plan
Sanslines
05-08-2009, 03:29 AM
> > > Dear Mr. President,
> > >
> > > Patriotic retirement: There are about 40 million
people over 50 in the work force. Pay them $1 million apiece severance
with the following stipulations:
> > > 1) They leave their jobs. Forty million job openings -
Unemployment fixed.
> > > 2) They buy NEW American cars. Forty million cars ordered
- Auto Industry fixed.
> > > 3) They either buy a house/pay off their mortgage -
Housing Crisis fixed.
> > >
> > > It can't get any easier than that!
> > > PS If more money is needed, have all members in
Congress and their constituents pay their taxes€¦
> > >
> > >
Naturist Mark
05-08-2009, 06:20 AM
Where are you gonna get the $40 trillion to do this?
Skinview
05-08-2009, 07:02 AM
Since when is spending money we don't have a problem? Isn't that Obama's plan?
MoonShadow
05-08-2009, 07:13 AM
Hey!! LOL
Send me my million and you bet I will buy a new American car and then invest and reinvent myself to earn even more income through all these "you have got to get new training programs". ;)
Sanslines
05-08-2009, 08:21 AM
Since when is spending money we don't have a problem? Isn't that Obama's plan?
lol....lol.......ain't that the truth!
Boreas
05-08-2009, 09:49 AM
I think we need to give this to Stephen Harper. It is a far better way to spend that trillion dollars, or the proportion that it would be in Canada. I can think of many things to do with my million. :D
FreeinNJ
05-08-2009, 11:51 AM
Where are you gonna get the $40 trillion to do this?
I was going to correct your math , but with earmarks and pork I am guessing your close to the end number
New Found Comfort
05-08-2009, 11:52 AM
Since when is spending money we don't have a problem? Isn't that Obama's plan?Are you sure you live in Massachusetts? ;)
Sanslines
05-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Here's the 411:
http://www.federalbudget.com/
Social Security is not part of the Federal Budget general fund. It is a separate account and has its own source of income. Social Security payments do not go into the general fund, they go in the Social Security trust fund, and should NOT be counted as general revenue. The trust fund is supposed to be used to pay future benefits. But....keep reading....
Currently, there is more being payed into the Social Security Trust Fund than is being paid out to beneficiaries. What's left over is routinely being "borrowed" and used as if it were general budget revenue. Government agencies using that money promise to pay it back (IOUs). All of the money in the Social Security Trust Fund has been spent! That's part of the National Debt. So Social Security is just a very large tax collection tool.
Beware the term "Social Security Surplus"; there is no such thing. Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme (http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm), there is never more in the Trust Fund than will ever be needed. Another Ponzi (http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/ponzi/) link.
Social Security will need to be fixed. Here is a debate page. (http://www.federalbudget.com/SSdebate.html) And here is more information on the Root Problem (http://www.federalbudget.com/rootproblem.html) with Social Security.
Sounds like we can start with Social Security to access an endless pile of money and then scream how Social Security is going to go broke.
Fitz1980
05-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Currently, there is more being payed into the Social Security Trust Fund than is being paid out to beneficiaries. What's left over is routinely being "borrowed" and used as if it were general budget revenue. Government agencies using that money promise to pay it back (IOUs). All of the money in the Social Security Trust Fund has been spent! That's part of the National Debt. So Social Security is just a very large tax collection tool.
Does anybody remember when Al Gore was running for president in 2000 and one of his big sticking points with George W Bush was Gore wanted to put the money "in a lockbox" while Bush didn't?
Beware the term "Social Security Surplus"; there is no such thing. Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme (http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm), there is never more in the Trust Fund than will ever be needed. Another Ponzi (http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/ponzi/) link.
Social Security is not a Ponzi scheme.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news/economy/social.security.fortune/
It's hard to knock down such a persistent and seemingly elegant analogy. But since it creates a false impression of Social Security, and since I for one consider real Ponzi schemes too important and interesting to obfuscate, it's worth rebutting this myth.
First, in the case of Social Security, no one is being misled. Madoff allegedly falsely claimed to have discovered a "black box" method of earning impressive results, and by doing so enticed individuals and organizations to invest with him. Social Security is exactly what it claims to be: A mandatory transfer payment system under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns. (Of course, it's true that if Madoff had the power to require participation, he would have had an easier time keeping his alleged scheme rolling.)
Second, Social Security isn't automatically doomed to fail. Played out to its logical conclusion, a Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. That's when the last people to participate are out of luck; the music stops and there's nowhere to sit.
It's true that Social Security faces a huge burden -- and a significant, long-term financing problem -- in light of retiring Baby Boomers. (The latest projections anticipate Social Security tax revenues to fall below costs in 2017 and the Social Security Trust Funds to be exhausted in 2041.) But Social Security can be, and has been, tweaked and modified to reflect changes in the size of the taxpaying workforce and the number of beneficiaries. It would take great political will, but the government could change benefit formulas or take other steps, like increasing taxes, to keep the system from failing.
Third, Social Security is morally the polar opposite of a Ponzi scheme and fundamentally different from what Madoff allegedly did. At the height of the Great Depression, our society (see "Social") resolved to create a safety net (see "Security") in the form of a social insurance policy that would pay modest benefits to retirees, the disabled and the survivors of deceased workers. By design, that means a certain amount of wealth transfer, with richer workers subsidizing poorer ones. That might rankle, but it's not fraud.
Sanslines
05-08-2009, 02:49 PM
Social Security is not a Ponzi scheme.
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...urity.fortune/ (http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news/economy/social.security.fortune/)
It's hard to knock down such a persistent and seemingly elegant analogy. But since it creates a false impression of Social Security, and since I for one consider real Ponzi schemes too important and interesting to obfuscate, it's worth rebutting this myth.
First, in the case of Social Security, no one is being misled. Madoff allegedly falsely claimed to have discovered a "black box" method of earning impressive results, and by doing so enticed individuals and organizations to invest with him. Social Security is exactly what it claims to be: A mandatory transfer payment system under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns. (Of course, it's true that if Madoff had the power to require participation, he would have had an easier time keeping his alleged scheme rolling.)
Second, Social Security isn't automatically doomed to fail. Played out to its logical conclusion, a Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. That's when the last people to participate are out of luck; the music stops and there's nowhere to sit.
It's true that Social Security faces a huge burden -- and a significant, long-term financing problem -- in light of retiring Baby Boomers. (The latest projections anticipate Social Security tax revenues to fall below costs in 2017 and the Social Security Trust Funds to be exhausted in 2041.) But Social Security can be, and has been, tweaked and modified to reflect changes in the size of the taxpaying workforce and the number of beneficiaries. It would take great political will, but the government could change benefit formulas or take other steps, like increasing taxes, to keep the system from failing.
Third, Social Security is morally the polar opposite of a Ponzi scheme and fundamentally different from what Madoff allegedly did. At the height of the Great Depression, our society (see "Social") resolved to create a safety net (see "Security") in the form of a social insurance policy that would pay modest benefits to retirees, the disabled and the survivors of deceased workers. By design, that means a certain amount of wealth transfer, with richer workers subsidizing poorer ones. That might rankle, but it's not fraud.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
First, in the case of Social Security , everyone is being misinformed (to say the least). Social Security taxes are not put in a 'lock box' and are routinely used for non social security related expenditures. Instead of politicians periodically screaming about how Social Security will 'go broke' and implying that this is due to too little money flowing into the system and too much flowing out to social security recipients (which fools the majority of people into believing something which is not at all true), politicians need to be more honest and openly state how much social security money is diverted to non social security expenditures and that additonal social security taxes are needed to fund those other expenditures. Social Security was never created with the intention of being a general revenue fund and yet this is exactly what has happened.
The above statement " Social Security is exactly what it claims to be: A mandatory transfer payment system under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns." is therefore rendered false as social security taxes fund much more then social security benefits and much of this is indeed hidden from the public.
Second, Social Security CAN be a Ponzi type of scheme if the exponential growth of human population is somehow brought under control, thereby limiting the growth of future payers into the system and the amount of social security taxes are limited. The reason that Social Security is routinely compared to a pyramid type of scheme is because it has been assumed that an enormous number of payers (who form the base of the pyramid) pay into a system that pays out to a much smaller number of recepients (the apex of the pyramid).
Third, Social Security is not at all what this author states as social security funds are not limited to social security purposes. What the author suggests is a theoretical description of social security but the reality of how funds are used is entirely different. The author neglects too may important facts.
Shrinking Surplus Revives Lock Box Debate
August 31, 2001
Revised budget estimates showing a shrinking federal budget surplus have revived the debate over the Social Security "lock box" and the nature of the Social Security Trust Fund. The new projections, released by the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) projects a budget surplus of nearly $157.5 billion this year. However, roughly $157 billion of this results from surplus Social Security taxes. Outside of the Social Security system, the federal surplus could be as little as $600 million.
Democrats immediately charged that the administration was close to "raiding" the Social Security surplus. The administration countered by declaring their continued support for a Social Security lock box, saying that under no circumstances would they dip into Social Security funds. In fact, however, the administration would indeed have tapped the Social Security surplus if it had not changed the procedures by which the government accounts for Social Security revenues.
All the huffing and puffing about lock boxes and Social Security Trust funds obscures a basic point. All the revenue received by the federal government--from whatever source--is simply federal revenue, to be spent by the government in whatever way it chooses. Lock boxes or Trust Funds are simply accounting gimmicks that have no meaning in the real world.
A rare voice of reason was provided in an editorial by The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54706-2001Aug23.html), which pointed out:
Whenever there is a Social Security--or Medicare--surplus, the government "taps" it in the sense that the money is used for other purposes and IOUs are put in the Trust Funds. The question is, which purposes. Will the money be used to pay down debt�or will some of it be used in the year collected to help pay for defense, law enforcement, the parks, etc? The Trust Funds are in the same shape either way; they have the IOUs. Social Security and Medicare are in that sense unaffected.
This latest budget contretemps should make one thing perfectly clear: if tax money--including Social Security taxes--stays in Washington, the politicians will spend it. The only true lock box is an individual account that workers own and control.
http://www.socialsecurity.org/daily/08-31-01.html
Has anything really changed since this article was written?
Naturist Mark
05-08-2009, 07:23 PM
I was going to correct your math , but with earmarks and pork I am guessing your close to the end number
It's easy to misplace your decimal point when working with so many zeros. And my calculator doesn't have enough digits to display the result...
But 40 million is 4 followed by 7 zeros
1 million is 1 followed by 6 zeros
multiply the 4 by the 1 and get 4
add the 7 zeros to the 6 zeros and get 13 zeros
your answer is 4 followed by 13 zeros, which in American ciphering is 40 trillion dollars
The Gross Planetary Product - the economy of the entire Earth - was a little over $62 trillion last year.
I'm guessing this plan would be a bit inflationary.
inudist
05-08-2009, 07:54 PM
It's easy to misplace your decimal point when working with so many zeros. And my calculator doesn't have enough digits to display the result...
But 40 million is 4 followed by 7 zeros
1 million is 1 followed by 6 zeros
multiply the 4 by the 1 and get 4
add the 7 zeros to the 6 zeros and get 13 zeros
your answer is 4 followed by 13 zeros, which in American ciphering is 40 trillion dollars
The Gross Planetary Product - the economy of the entire Earth - was a little over $62 trillion last year.
I'm guessing this plan would be a bit inflationary.
Hey dude, this was a joke! Chill out and relax a little. You are way out there or something. I don't know.
nakenone
05-08-2009, 08:13 PM
I thought from the beginning the money should have been given to all the ladys,they would definitely go shopping.Let the guys work an watch football while the girls are out stimulating the economy.
countryguync
05-08-2009, 09:56 PM
I am long time unemployed. I would love to get $100,000 so I could pay off our credit card bills totaling about $23,000 and our mortgage of about $50,000, then put some into savings at the credit union, and get solar power & water heating panels installed along with a new enclosed front porch. But to stimulate the economy try giving every man, woman and child $1,000 no matter what your income or tax status. Remember that "STIMULUS CHECK" they sent out last year? I did NOT get one because I did NOT make enough money in 2007 to qualify. And so this year I will NOT get another "STIMULUS CHECK". DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE OUT THERE?
Art900
05-09-2009, 03:50 AM
Well, I would take the deal but I am against leaving this large debt for my grandchildern's children. Obama has set us up for many generations to come:-(
Sanslines
05-09-2009, 03:54 AM
I am long time unemployed. I would love to get $100,000 so I could pay off our credit card bills totaling about $23,000 and our mortgage of about $50,000, then put some into savings at the credit union, and get solar power & water heating panels installed along with a new enclosed front porch. But to stimulate the economy try giving every man, woman and child $1,000 no matter what your income or tax status. Remember that "STIMULUS CHECK" they sent out last year? I did NOT get one because I did NOT make enough money in 2007 to qualify. And so this year I will NOT get another "STIMULUS CHECK". DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE OUT THERE?
It certainly does. $1000 can certainly help many people,but it really isn't enough to stimulate much of anything. Right now, many people need money for basic living expenses and to pay off debts. What most people really want are jobs where they can work hard, earn money, and pay for what they want. Lack of jobs is the number one problem in this country.
countryguync
05-09-2009, 05:25 AM
Well, I would take the deal but I am against leaving this large debt for my grandchildern's children. Obama has set us up for many generations to come:-(
President Obama has not set us up, it is the financial system,(the banks and investment firms) that started tis ball rolling. President Obama is just doing what he has to to stop it. The Congress also shares in the blame for pandering to the banking industry. I heard it last night on "BILL MOYERS" program. He interviewed Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois, who tried to get a provision into a Financial Recovery Bill that would allow bankrupcy Judges to modify home mortgages for homeowners about to be foreclosed on. His proposal failed. HOWEVER, the rich folks who have a vacation home and losts of oter realestate CAN get their mortgages modified.:mad:
The best way to prevent this "mortgage meltdown" from happening again is to require lending institutions to hold onto the paper they write, instead of selling it as part of a "derivitive" on the market.
Smiley
05-09-2009, 05:55 AM
Let's face the bare truth. .Congress WANTS this country run at a deficit. They are the ultimate as far as accepting the budget the seated President proposes. I'm not saying Obama is doing a good thing, rather I'm saying our elected representatives and senators are doing a BAD job.
Ans, as long as I'm on that subject why can/do they vote themselves raises and lifetime perks while the rest of us that are retired have to make do with our present fixed incomes? One term in Congress and they have it made for life. .salary they earned while in office becomes their retirement, health, dental, vision and whatever insurance you can think of they get to keep. .for LIFE! I could only wish my retirement consisted of my last year's earnings before I retired. Same for medical insurance. To think, a four year term as an elected official gives a person a lifetime of security?
Anyone else think something is wrong with this?:mad:
Naturist Mark
05-09-2009, 06:03 AM
Remember that "STIMULUS CHECK" they sent out last year? I did NOT get one because I did NOT make enough money in 2007 to qualify. And so this year I will NOT get another "STIMULUS CHECK". DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE OUT THERE?
You should have received one last year, even if you didn't earn any income - so long as you weren't claimed as a dependent on someone else's taxes.. But you had to have filed a tax return to get one - even if it was a return that says you didn't earn any money. It may still be possible to claim that stimulus money even now - check with a tax expert about filing an amended 2009 tax return (http://www.ehow.com/how_2323377_amend-irs-tax-return.html) with an added Recovery Rebate Credit (http://www.ehow.com/how_4704302_stimulus-package-recovery-rebate-credit.html).
This year's taxpayer stimulus isn't being given as a check - except to seniors on Social Security - the rest of us are receiving it invisibly as a small reduction in our federal tax withholding, which is stupid. $26 extra dollars per paycheck (or $52 per couple) isn't going to encourage much spending, but a lump sum payment of $500 would. We get the same "stimulus" bonus next year too, but spread out over the whole year - a whopping $7.70 per week reduction in withholding.Woo Hoo. Unlike last year, you have to earn income to receive this stimulus "tax reduction". Somehow I think a "stimulus" you don't even notice isn't going to have much affect.
Sanslines
05-09-2009, 06:04 AM
OUR FLOURISHING ECONOMY (http://wonkette.com/tag/pt-our-flourishing-economy/)
Unemployment Problem Finally Solved
http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/great-depression.jpg
You’ve done it, America! You have already shed so many jobs that you are running out of remaining jobs to lose. That means new unemployment filings for last week were not quite as awful as unemployment filings for the previous week, and were the lowest since late January! We have turned a corner, etc!
Alas, every employment expert in the world agrees that things will get worse before they get better, jobs are a lagging indicator blah blah blah, which means that job losses will probably continue throughout the year. They will just hopefully not be quite as dire and awful as what we’ve already seen. Those of you who are already unemployed, give yourself a pat on the back — you have gotten an early start on the inevitable.
Jobless Claims Fall to 610,000, Lowest Since Jan (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/04/16/afx6298449.html) [Reuters]
http://wonkette.com/407894/unemployment-problem-finally-solved
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