Empathy, what's it all about for you? [Archive]

View Full Version : Empathy, what's it all about for you?

BinCo

06-02-2009, 08:01 AM

I am posting this new thread to discuss something that seems to pop up in other threads.

What is your own personal definition of Empathy?

Do you have more, or less, respect for people who have it towards anyone?

How do you think Empathy should effect decisions in the workplace, schools and government?

How have you noticed the changes in your Empathy for others throughout your life? In other words, as you got older did you have more or less Empathy for stangers?

Have you found that your own "line in the sand" for Empathy moves for different people based on how much you know about them and their lives?

Does your personal beliefs (religion) dictate your Empathy, or have you found yourself on conflict with the teachings and beliefs of your religious organization?

nimrod

06-02-2009, 01:38 PM

Really good questions BinCo.

Hard for me to put it in words but I will try. I think for me it is being able to, or at least attempting to, put yourself in their shoes, but it is more than just that and it is where I have trouble quantifing it because it has to do with emotional responces.

For having more or less respect for those who have it for others, depends. Some have to much empathy for others and always put themselves last and I can see how destructive that behaviour can be.

This relates somewhat to the last answer. Yes there should be some but do not let it be the only bases for making decisions.

I think I have become a little harder of heart as I got older, but more balanced. Until I know the person well I remain emotionally detached is the best way I can describe it.

I do not think I have a "line in the sand" when it comes to empathy because it does change from person to person depending on how well I know them.

Of course my beliefs dictate my empathy I cannot think of what else would. Actually after some thought my emotional state does affect it too and I have been unable to feel any empathy for someone that I was angry at.

Thanks for the questions, made me use my brain.

David77

06-02-2009, 02:43 PM

I appreciated the answers and enjoyed the fine responses Nimrod gave to difficult questions surrounding empathy.

I think possibly that I disagree about the statement that a person can have too much empathy.

Possibly that person with "too much empathy" does not value, respect, himself enough to include himselves in proper self maintenance.

There also may be other reason for, for instance, such as giving it all away to the needy, as that person may get a great feeling of worth by his action, - by not acting too wisely.

One example is the founder of the Jain religion in India who is honored for (his empathy?) in giving all his clothes away to a person who has no clothes, so this religious giver travels around naked for the rest of his life, (begging) and is honored as some sort of saint.

I think that empathy is developed in childhood from the close relationship to parent or early close relationship to significant others while he was developing at an early age.

Naturist Mark

06-02-2009, 03:04 PM

Empathy is nothing more or less than the ability to stand in someone else's shoes - to understand how they feel.

It does not mean you have to adopt their beliefs or agree with them.

There is a word for people who are unable to do that - sociopaths.

nakedstudent

06-02-2009, 04:20 PM

Journeyman

06-02-2009, 04:20 PM

I
I think that empathy is developed in childhood from the close relationship to parent or early close relationship to significant others while he was developing at an early age.

I agree with David on this. My late Mom was such a champion for the underdog, for the volunteer, for the wallflower...it taught me a lot as a child.

When I saved my part time job money and took a school trip at 17 years old to Spain and Morocco, I saw people living in dreadful living conditions compared to my own, and that further instilled a feeling of empathy for others.

This feeling doesn't overcome me, and I am careful as to which charities get my cash donations (I investigate their overheads before donating), but I firmly believe that we become better people if we do put ourselves in others' shoes and act accordingly like decent human beings.

MoonShadow

06-02-2009, 04:37 PM

Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Rivera discussed this specific case in detail on this past Friday. It was pointed out that the judge in question forced the 5 year old to sit in the court room in front of the rapist as a witness.

I don't know how old this case was but such is not allowed anymore nor has it been allowed for some years now.

Journeyman

06-02-2009, 04:49 PM

I...My big disagreement is that it is not the role of GOVERNMENT to be empathetic. We've made laws through a time tested process which ideally gives a rough estimate of the values of society as a whole. These laws are (also ideally) set up to protect people of all creeds, races, religions, genders, etc.

Nakedstudent, as a (presumably) twentysomething or younger, I would hope that you also remember that this is an international forum, and that people of other nations may not have a clue about US laws. Britain, Norway, Canada, Australia and South Africa, as examples, have federal legislation that may or may not be similar to yours.

Here in Canada we have a national health policy, like the one in the UK, that means that everyone regardless of income, race, etc, gets free basic health care. Your country does not. I would suggest that our history in Canada is such that empathy was built in to that initial federal policy, when over several decades ago, it was crucial that national health care was needed if our country was to survive as a nation. And, since you said, "once we make a decision to excuse an action based on 'compassion' the bedrock of the country starts to erode." ...

...Uh - no, not necessarily. I know you don't mean that when one contracts cancer it is one's fault, but you musn't judge a federal government's regulations overall, when indeed empathy and compassion can instill the national character of a country. Canadians can't imagine our country without national health care. It's a given.

Oh, and as an aside -- it might be uesful to watch other TV news beyond Fox in the USA. Try BBC for Britain and CBC in Canada - online - to get an idea of what goes on beyond your borders.

Respectfully,
J'man

nakedstudent

06-02-2009, 05:23 PM

I don't know how old this case was but such is not allowed anymore nor has it been allowed for some years now.

The article cited was from 5-19-09.

BinCo

06-02-2009, 05:42 PM

nakedstudent

06-02-2009, 05:51 PM

Nakedstudent, as a (presumably) twentysomething or younger, I would hope that you also remember that this is an international forum, and that people of other nations may not have a clue about US laws. Britain, Norway, Canada, Australia and South Africa, as examples, have federal legislation that may or may not be similar to yours.

Here in Canada we have a national health policy, like the one in the UK, that means that everyone regardless of income, race, etc, gets free basic health care. Your country does not. I would suggest that our history in Canada is such that empathy was built in to that initial federal policy, when over several decades ago, it was crucial that national health care was needed if our country was to survive as a nation. And, since you said, "once we make a decision to excuse an action based on 'compassion' the bedrock of the country starts to erode." ...

...Uh - no, not necessarily. I know you don't mean that when one contracts cancer it is one's fault, but you musn't judge a federal government's regulations overall, when indeed empathy and compassion can instill the national character of a country. Canadians can't imagine our country without national health care. It's a given.

Oh, and as an aside -- it might be uesful to watch other TV news beyond Fox in the USA. Try BBC for Britain and CBC in Canada - online - to get an idea of what goes on beyond your borders.

Respectfully,
J'man

Journeyman,

Have you heard just how many Canadians come to the US for treatment because of the backlog of cases in the Canadian system?

Furthermore, providing national health care does nothing as far as identity goes. This is because it removes the emphasis on the individual. There is less dependence on self and community when big brother steps in and provides everything. What motivation for private charity and compassion (the truest form of "empathy") exist when everybody subconsciously knows that the government is going to take care of everything in the end?

This is not to say that I am completely against all proposed health care measures proposed by the current administration. I think modernizing records with technology is a no brainer and would instantly lower costs. I find it rather hypocritical that the government can take a total of about 25% of each of my paychecks which amounts to about $500 a month. Then they turn around and say the US(even in a non subsidized system) still spends over $7000 per capita on healthcare when a very solid plan only costs $120 a month (for me) in the current private setting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

As a "twentysomething", I do come very close to "average" as defined by wikipedia (which cites the US census bureau multiple times).

Something is wrong about those numbers. Without even thinking about nationalizing healthcare or having a "single payer"/ whatever they verbally water it down to being, we should be able to easily save $6000 per capita by simply providing the plan I have researched (and payed for between college and the start of my full time job).

nakedstudent

06-02-2009, 06:04 PM

Journeyman

06-02-2009, 06:07 PM

Journeyman,

Have you heard just how many Canadians come to the US for treatment because of the backlog of cases in the Canadian system?

Give me a f***ing break. You don't live here. I do. You're only listening to the reactionary conservative news sources in the US.

Furthermore, providing national health care does nothing as far as identity goes. This is because it removes the emphasis on the individual. There is less dependence on self and community when big brother steps in and provides everything. What motivation for private charity and compassion (the truest form of "empathy") exist when everybody subconsciously knows that the government is going to take care of everything in the end?

Who makes *you* the authority on this? Why denigrate the national health care policy of another country just because you personally don't agree with it? The federal government here does not and cannot provide everything: believe me, the Sally Ann, the Jewish and Catholic charities, the health care charities, all get lots of support from private individuals as it is ludricrous to think that our feds can help with all that is needed. Your argument is silly. Grow up and open your eyes to what other countries are doing well.

Sanslines

06-02-2009, 06:34 PM

There is a word for people who are unable to do that - sociopaths.

Then we are doomed for according to your definition we are a nation of sociopaths.

l2ltlarry

06-02-2009, 08:04 PM

There's a good article about the value of empathy and emotion in making good decisions in the 5-29-09 New York Times, written by David Brooks. It's titled "The Empathy Issue".

He starts out talking about the "useful falsehood that this is a nation of laws, not of men." Every time I hear someone say that, my reaction is always, "That's a lie!" He says most people know that the statement is untrue.

His ending to the third paragraph says, "People without social emotions like empathy are not objective decision-makers. They are sociopaths who sometimes end up on death row."

Corporate American business for years has worked hard to promote dispassionate, unemotional, cold-eyed, hard-nosed decision-making in the guise of objectivity and un-biased reasoning. I think this approach by Corporate America has contributed much toward creating our current economic mess.

Fitz1980

06-02-2009, 09:44 PM

I would much rather not have a panel of politicians tell me if I can receive the cancer treatment that my doctor and I decide is right for me.......

Would you rather have a big business telling you what type of cancer treatment you can get, or even what doctor you can see, because that's how it is for many people here in the US under HMOs.

BTW if you work for a public school than you have the government health care that liberals want to give to everyone, right?

Naturist Mark

06-02-2009, 10:49 PM

I agree with other sentiments here regarding the meaning of empathy.

My big disagreement is that it is not the role of GOVERNMENT to be empathetic. We've made laws through a time tested process which ideally gives a rough estimate of the values of society as a whole. These laws are (also ideally) set up to protect people of all creeds, races, religions, genders, etc.

I don't think that the government should alter policy based on empathy. This is because once we make a decision to excuse an action based on "compassion" the bedrock of the country starts to erode. Child rapists for example have recently been getting off very easily because of the judicial system.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/Child_Rapist_Gets_1_Year_in_P

Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Rivera discussed this specific case in detail on this past Friday. It was pointed out that the judge in question forced the 5 year old to sit in the court room in front of the rapist as a witness.

I'm not 100% sure why the 1 year sentence came, but it is pretty evident that empathy played a pretty big role in it.

Empathy in many cases blurs that line in many cases. Empathy can tell a student (as I've found out first hand), criminal, or normal, law abiding citizen that it's ok to constantly touch that line and that behavior modifications are not needed.

That argument makes absolutely no sense at all. I think empathy is being confused with something else here.

Empathy is the ability to understand someone else's situation and feelings, and it is absolutely essential for justice.

To say that a judge should act without empathy is to say that they should make decisions in criminal cases without any understanding of the accused OR the victims, and in a civil case without any understanding of the positions of the plaintiffs or defendant. In other words they should make their rulings out of deliberate ignorance. That is not a rational argument.

Empathy has absolutely nothing to do with coddling criminals, or being afraid to do hard but necessary things. Empathy is not the same as sympathy, or a crippling compassion. Indeed, empathy can be revulsive when the subject of empathy is truly toxic.

I know that the rejectionists on the party of no are using "empathy" as a code word for being biased and soft on crime, or socialist or some such nonsense, but frankly they are full of crap, they are either ignorantly, but more likely deliberately being misleading. Not so long ago they were saying just the opposite.

<object width="365" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.c-spanarchives.org/flash/cspanPlayer.swf?pid=286660-4&clipStart=1083.30&clipStop=1109.53&autoplay=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.c-spanarchives.org/flash/cspanPlayer.swf?pid=286660-4&clipStart=1083.30&clipStop=1109.53&autoplay=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="365" height="340"></embed></object>

Thomas Sowell completely misconstrues empathy is in his article "Empathy" Versus Law (http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/05/05/empathy_versus_law). He uses as his unstated basis for his strawman argument that empathy is a preferential bias for selected groups (aka prejudice). He then goes straight to Hitler, which according to Godwin's law means he loses all credibility.

Ellen Goodman did a much better job in What's so bad about empathy? (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/05/22/whats_so_bad_about_empathy/)

Empathy can tell a student (as I've found out first hand), criminal, or normal, law abiding citizen that it's ok to constantly touch that line and that behavior modifications are not needed.

I'm aghast ... this is an absurd statement. Empathy allows antisocial behavior? That is completely backwards. The LACK of empathy is at the root of many if not most destructive behaviors. In fact, some schools are now training students (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/education/05empathy.html) in developing their ability to use empathy to curb bullying, violence and prejudice. (http://www.leadershipturn.com/leaderships-future-the-need-for-empathy/)

Naturist Mark

06-02-2009, 11:03 PM

Then we are doomed for according to your definition we are a nation of sociopaths.

Do you really think most Americans are incapable of empathy? Psychologists estimate only about 1 in 25 people are sociopaths (85% of whom are male, one of the prices for having only one X chromosome ...). Of course they include a bit more than just a lack of empathy in their definition of Sociopathy - or Antisocial Personality Disorder. Among other things sociopaths lack a conscience.

Question: can a person have a conscience yet lack empathy?

jon71

06-02-2009, 11:29 PM

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.

I would much rather not have a panel of politicians tell me if I can receive the cancer treatment that my doctor and I decide is right for me.......

But hey... you voted for them so I'm sure they have your best interests at heart...

I saw Mitch McConnell making a fool out of himself on the news recently. He was saying "I don't want a govt. bureaucrat standing between you and your doctor". Is he dumb enough to think people are better off with an insurance company bean counter standing between us and our doctors? How clueless can you get? I'm not surprised that more and more Americans are going to Canada for their health care. Does it happen the other way around? Yes, but almost entirely for things like cosmetic surgery and non-essential things. Americans are hopping the border for basic life sustaining medicines and procedures. I have Canadian friends and they would NEVER want to trade systems with us for anything, and yet more and more Americans want to follow their example.

Illinois59

06-03-2009, 03:34 AM

Journeyman,

As a "twentysomething", I do come very close to "average" as defined by wikipedia (which cites the US census bureau multiple times).

Something is wrong about those numbers. Without even thinking about nationalizing healthcare or having a "single payer"/ whatever they verbally water it down to being, we should be able to easily save $6000 per capita by simply providing the plan I have researched (and payed for between college and the start of my full time job).

The reality here is that nakedstudent has no concept of reality. As a person gets older it is a fact of life that medical problems do arise. Maybe "twentysomething" is average in age but that is average in age only. Why not look at the statisitics to compare the percentage of the population with diabetes, heart problems, etc at age 25 to the percentage of the population with the same problems at age 50. There is no way an insurance company would give me, age 62, the same coverage for $120 per month that nakedstudent may have at age "twentysomething".

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 04:20 AM

Do you really think most Americans are incapable of empathy? Psychologists estimate only about 1 in 25 people are sociopaths (85% of whom are male, one of the prices for having only one X chromosome ...). Of course they include a bit more than just a lack of empathy in their definition of Sociopathy - or Antisocial Personality Disorder. Among other things sociopaths lack a conscience.

Question: can a person have a conscience yet lack empathy?

I am strictly going by your definition of empathy. You stated that empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. The alternative is sociopathy.

Clearly the majority of people can not put themselves into the shoes of others. For example, if a person has never had cancer, then they can not understand or put themselves into the shoes of someone whohas had cancer. If a person has never been through a divorce, then they can not put themselves into the shoes of someone who has. If a person who has never been to the innner city or traveled via public transportation, then they can not truly understand what it is like to live in the inner city.

You did add to your definition of empathy but you still did not address the fact that many people can claim to empathisize with others, but in reality can not.

The question that really needs to be asked is how can someone fully claim to empathize with another person unless they have had simliar expericences and can relate? Are those empathetic feelings based upon real world experiences or an abstract claim to understanding what another person has gone through when in fact such a claim is based upon circumspect experiences at best?

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 05:54 AM

.

Question: can a person have a conscience yet lack empathy?

Yes. Empathy deals more with feelings, emotions; whereas, one's conscience is their ability to know what is right from wrong, what to them is morally right and wrong but not necessarily showing or having feelings for another individual. A lot of people have a conscience but no empathy; some are on this forum. ;)

Naturist Mark

06-03-2009, 06:28 AM

Yes. Empathy deals more with feelings, emotions; whereas, one's conscience is their ability to know what is right from wrong, what to them is morally right and wrong but not necessarily showing or having feelings for another individual. A lot of people have a conscience but no empathy; some are on this forum. ;)

It is a common characteristic for a sociopath to know right from wrong - but not really care. They are often very adept at simulating normal emotions but really only care about how they themselves are affected. They can be very charismatic and interesting, and quite versatile in their thinking (being so unencumbered actual concern for others I suppose) - people think of sociopaths being crass lowlife thugs and losers, but they often are quite intelligent and excel in business or politics. The current sociopath poster boy is former Illinois governor Rob Blagojevich.

I suspect that conscience without empathy is akin to the simulated emotion of a sociopath - the only real concern they have is for themselves. Not sure that is really conscience.

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 06:34 AM

Yes. Empathy deals more with feelings, emotions; whereas, one's conscience is their ability to know what is right from wrong, what to them is morally right and wrong but not necessarily showing or having feelings for another individual. A lot of people have a conscience but no empathy; some are on this forum. ;)

Further to the discussion, there is a big difference between real and claimed empathy. When Katrina destroyed New Orleans, many people claimed to have empathy for those who went through that experience. Many of those people could not directly relate to the experience of a devistating hurricane. Yet some of those people actually did something by the way of contributing to the Red Cross, animal relief agencies, etc. Those individuals demonstrated real empathy in action.

The question is does real empathy involve an action or respose? If so, then many who claim to be empathetic do so only in words and such displays of empathy are not real empathy.

Naturist Mark

06-03-2009, 06:37 AM

I am strictly going by your definition of empathy. You stated that empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. The alternative is sociopathy.

Clearly the majority of people can not put themselves into the shoes of others. For example, if a person has never had cancer, then they can not understand or put themselves into the shoes of someone whohas had cancer. If a person has never been through a divorce, then they can not put themselves into the shoes of someone who has. If a person who has never been to the innner city or traveled via public transportation, then they can not truly understand what it is like to live in the inner city.

You did add to your definition of empathy but you still did not address the fact that many people can claim to empathisize with others, but in reality can not.

The question that really needs to be asked is how can someone fully claim to empathize with another person unless they have had simliar expericences and can relate? Are those empathetic feelings based upon real world experiences or an abstract claim to understanding what another person has gone through when in fact such a claim is based upon circumspect experiences at best?

Empathy doesn't exist because no one can have perfect empathy?

No, I'm not saying you can only have empathy for other people's experiences if you have experienced them yourself. Indeed I would say that empathy is more like the ability to understand the viewpoint of people who are in situations you have NOT directly experienced.

You do not need perfect knowledge of the experience of others to have empathy. And clearly some people can be more empathetic than others.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 07:54 AM

Journeyman,

Have you heard just how many Canadians come to the US for treatment because of the backlog of cases in the Canadian system?

You apparently have not heard anything about those who do get through quickly, or about the improvements that have been made. You are doing what you accuse the national health care system of doing----making a blanket statement.

Furthermore, providing national health care does nothing as far as identity goes. This is because it removes the emphasis on the individual. There is less dependence on self and community when big brother steps in and provides everything. What motivation for private charity and compassion (the truest form of "empathy") exist when everybody subconsciously knows that the government is going to take care of everything in the end?

That is absolute BS. You are basing your argument on the spin you have heard, and not at all in reality. No one wants to be involved with healthcare unless they need it. Thankfully, we can get it here. We do not need to worry about being denied because the for profit hospital thinks our health needs are going to cut into their profit. We are not going to have to worry about big health bills because the insurance company either won't cover our treatment, or because we cannot get health insurance. We do get individualized care because our health professionals are that, professionals.

I have had two recent reasonably significant encounters with the healthcare system in this town. The first one was last week when my husband developed a rash for no good reason. We decided to go to Emerg rather than the walk-in because this was so odd. Thank goodness we did, because his blood pressure tanked in front of the nurse, and he passed out. He got excellent, empathetic care. This was something that was life threatening. It also had nothing to do with us being dependent on "Big Brother".

The second relates to my foot. I have arthritis in the joint, and had an appointment with the orthopedic surgeon this week to discuss options. They even fit me in for another appointment in a couple of weeks because I was not prepared to make such a big decision on the spot. If I decide on surgery, my wait will not be long. It will be a couple of months, which is appropriate because I will need some time to get my life sorted out for the down time. Also, I have spent years looking after my foot with proper shoes, and other non-invasive treatments before getting to this place. I am not being dependent on "Big Brother" to look after me. I have also experienced empathy from those I have encountered along the way.

Please get some experience in the real world before you make blanket statements about things in other countries.

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 07:58 AM

Empathy doesn't exist because no one can have perfect empathy?

No, I'm not saying you can only have empathy for other people's experiences if you have experienced them yourself. Indeed I would say that empathy is more like the ability to understand the viewpoint of people who are in situations you have NOT directly experienced.

You do not need perfect knowledge of the experience of others to have empathy. And clearly some people can be more empathetic than others.

If the criteria in order to have empathy is some kind of understanding then how can someone understand what it is like to have a toothache unless the person has experienced a toothache? I would say that those who have had toothaches can offer real empathy to others with a toothache because their understanding is based upon real and first hand experiences. I don't believe that indirect or text book knowledge of (as an example) a catastrophe is sufficient to claim real empathy.

I think that empathy is one of those feel good words that some use because it is a polite thing to say. Then again there are those who do feel real empathy because they either have real world experience with what they are being empathetic too or have engaged in some real world response (such as donating money) to demonstrate empathy.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 07:59 AM

I saw Mitch McConnell making a fool out of himself on the news recently. He was saying "I don't want a govt. bureaucrat standing between you and your doctor". Is he dumb enough to think people are better off with an insurance company bean counter standing between us and our doctors? How clueless can you get? I'm not surprised that more and more Americans are going to Canada for their health care. Does it happen the other way around? Yes, but almost entirely for things like cosmetic surgery and non-essential things. Americans are hopping the border for basic life sustaining medicines and procedures. I have Canadian friends and they would NEVER want to trade systems with us for anything, and yet more and more Americans want to follow their example.

That is another good point, and I believe others have made it. The bureaucrats do not get involved directly in our healthcare. We do have guidelines which medical services must follow, and they are generally reasonably clear. Of course, they are not perfect....is anything. We will NEVER have a capitalist HMO or similar wog stepping in to tell a doctor how to practice medicine. I understand that can happen in the US. Is this accurate?

Boreas

06-03-2009, 08:04 AM

Yes. Empathy deals more with feelings, emotions; whereas, one's conscience is their ability to know what is right from wrong, what to them is morally right and wrong but not necessarily showing or having feelings for another individual. A lot of people have a conscience but no empathy; some are on this forum. ;)

That is very true. In fact many psychopaths have an exquisite ability to discern right from wrong.....it may not coincide with our concepts of right and wrong, but they often have a very clear code of rights and wrongs, and they live by them.

A person with a personality disorder (aka sociopath, psychopath, narcissist) believes the world revolves around them. As long as you recognize that and act accordingly, you will have no problem. Also, these people are NOT all criminals, in the true sense.....ie in prison. Many are in positions of power. Sometimes it is easier to get to the top when you have less conscience and less concern for other people's feelings. Which reminds me, some of the "socially acceptable" people with PD, can mimic things like empathy and concern for others. Scratch the surface and you will see it is not very deep, or very real.

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 08:04 AM

No one wants to be involved with healthcare unless they need it.

The reality in the UK that I have witnessed first hand on numerous occassions is that many doctor's surgeries (offices) under the UK National Health is full of people who do not need any form of medical care. Many come to the surgery with colds or with minor cuts that require nothing more then a band aide. These individuals clog up the system and waste valuable doctor's time. One major issue with a national health scheme is to educate people so that they do not abuse the system and also create some kind of penalty system for those who do.

The advantage of a US Medicare type of program is that there is a basic charge for care. The reason for this is that anything that is for free is subject to exploitation and abuse. In real life, nothing is free and everyone should be required to pay a basic charge even if it is only $20 for a visit to a doctor's office. This will help to cut down on the expectation that some have that society 'owes them'.

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 08:18 AM

The question is does real empathy involve an action or respose?
empathy.

Action, not necessarily. Response, yes, those who are empathic will have a response whether it is acknowledged by another individual or not. It is felt whether verbally expressed or not.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 08:19 AM

The reality in the UK that I have witnessed first hand on numerous occassions is that many doctor's surgeries (offices) under the UK National Health is full of people who do not need any form of medical care. Many come to the surgery with colds or with minor cuts that require nothing more then a band aide. These individuals clog up the system and waste valuable doctor's time. One major issue with a national health scheme is to educate people so that they do not abuse the system and also create some kind of penalty system for those who do.

The advantage of a US Medicare type of program is that there is a basic charge for care. The reason for this is that anything that is for free is subject to exploitation and abuse. In real life, nothing is free and everyone should be required to pay a basic charge even if it is only $20 for a visit to a doctor's office. This will help to cut down on the expectation that some have that society 'owes them'.

That is a debate that we have had up here too. Certainly there have been problems with people clogging up Emergency departments with non-emergencies. Charging a small fee is one response to that. I think you will find that some people will still go to Emerg or for health services unecessarily even if they have to pay a small fee. Many jursidictions here have worked to educate people on what constitutes an emergency. Our community has opened more walk-in clinics and that has taken some burden off the hospital. Education is far better than legislation. Ideally, there will be a network of services available so that one service does not get the bulk of the customers.

The powers that be (whoever they are) are looking at wait times, and are making some changes. They are even comparing places like airlines, and other services to see how they manage their waits. We are seeing improvements.

So, while it may be appropriate to charge a small fee for some things (that does happen here too), sometimes all you need to do is properly educate people. Even letting them know to go home and sleep if you have flu-like symptoms, and which symptoms are worthy of alarm.

David77

06-03-2009, 08:20 AM

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 08:28 AM

I saw Mitch McConnell making a fool out of himself on the news recently. He was saying "I don't want a govt. bureaucrat standing between you and your doctor". Is he dumb enough to think people are better off with an insurance company bean counter standing between us and our doctors? How clueless can you get? I'm not surprised that more and more Americans are going to Canada for their health care. Does it happen the other way around? Yes, but almost entirely for things like cosmetic surgery and non-essential things. Americans are hopping the border for basic life sustaining medicines and procedures. I have Canadian friends and they would NEVER want to trade systems with us for anything, and yet more and more Americans want to follow their example.

Hmmmm, so what is the difference between an insurance agency's bureaucrat standing in between you and your doctor or one from the government? A bureaucrat is a bureaucrat regardless of whether they are public or private sector employers/employees. McConnell obviously didn't think that one through. LOL

The health care system in the US of A is an embarrassment. Here we sit as one of the "supposingly" more advanced societies and we have 40 plus million people without any insurance and more are losing as unemployment grows due to lost of jobs.

Many don't want government involved so I ask them who the hell do you think can administer a nationwide health care plan? Definitely not the insurance industry or they would be doing it already.

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 08:57 AM

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 09:02 AM

I think that at times you can see a complete stranger and emphathize with him/her when you see that person's body language of joy, sorrow, anxiety, dejection, confusion, elation, fright, etc. because we can identify with them as we too are human with various emotions. We may want to help, and help can be in many form - a hug to the grieving and words of condolence, asking some persons if they would like to talk about it, giving a compliment to the discouraged, congratulate a person on his joy he has found, referring someone with who you empathize to seek help from a professional agencies, etc.
The bible give the example of the good Samaritan who helped an unfortunate person beside the road when others passed him by, and it was suggested to feed and providing him clothes. I would like to think that the Samaritan was also acting out of empathy and not merely out of a cold "duty" feeling.

By definition, empathy generally means to be able to share one's feelings and understand another's emotions and feelings. It usually is characterized by being able to experience what another person is feeling. Based upon what you have said above, empathy involves nothing more then being able to associate with like feelings regardless of the specific circumstances that created those feelings. Empathy does not require that an individual act upon their feelings ie nothing need be said, acknowledged, or done in order to experience empathy.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 09:02 AM

The health care situation will get much worse as the government will not stand up to the medical / pharma / insurance complex and their price increases that consistently exceed the rate of inflation. People need to stop complaining, get off their damn lazy butts, get to DC and protest! The government will do nothing unless the people demand it.

Frankly too, I think it is better that the government be involved than private insurance and such. Government is supposed to be accountable to its electorate. We can ultimately vote them out. Private business is only accountable to the bottom line.

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 09:54 AM

LamontCranston

06-03-2009, 09:56 AM

Hmmmm, so what is the difference between an insurance agency's bureaucrat standing in between you and your doctor or one from the government? A bureaucrat is a bureaucrat regardless of whether they are public or private sector employers/employees. McConnell obviously didn't think that one through. LOL

The health care system in the US of A is an embarrassment. Here we sit as one of the "supposingly" more advanced societies and we have 40 plus million people without any insurance and more are losing as unemployment grows due to lost of jobs.

Many don't want government involved so I ask them who the hell do you think can administer a nationwide health care plan? Definitely not the insurance industry or they would be doing it already.

Not you Moon or anyone in particular, but I dislike reading or listening any healthcare debate that doesn't include mention of Medicare and Medicaid which are two HUGE government (state and federal) healthcare programs.

They are out there and they've been out there for forty years. Modify the eligibility requirements to cover more folks, increase the budget, problem solved. Why don't they discuss that?

Also, one of my daughters is 20 and dropped down to part-time status at school, so they require me to drop her from family coverage. Now she's one of those "uninsured" statisitics. If they let me keep paying family-sized premiums (or even more) like I've been doing for 20 years, she'd be insured. No government program, no new "national healthcare policy". Seems a simple answer they don't address.

Or why even are insurance premiums for a 20-30 year old so high? Aren't they the lowest risk and healthiest physical specemins on the planet? I figure a low-cost policy for them would be gravy cash flow for an insurance company. Ratchet up the premiums as they get older and the risk increases. I don't understand the business angle of it...

In engineering school they taught us to apply the "sanity check" to a solution. Step back and see if it makes sense. The health care debate doesn't make sense to me. It leaves out too much and never goes anywhere. Year after year. Like when they say "social security will run out of money." Well, no it won't, you'll print/borrow more. If AIG is "too big to fail" so you come up with $700 billion overnight, then Social Security is much bigger and won't fail.

Who are they kidding and what do they really want?

Boreas

06-03-2009, 11:03 AM

Mike S, you are forgetting that the HMO's and insurance providers are shaping the discussion. If they allowed those issues to be discussed they'd be out of business! shocked They could not allow that! :sneaky:

Boreas

06-03-2009, 11:07 AM

How I wish we could vote them OUT. We do have a new sheriff in town in the White House but things are way too quiet on the hill so I am having some doubts.

Has anyone noticed how the media is out-to-lunch these days?

I know. I also believe that the politicians are more influenced by big business than by the electorate.......

We in Canada sort of have the option to vote out our politicians. BC has a formal process, but it is hard to put into effect. We also have minority governments, and if they lose the confidence of The House, then they are out. It ALMOST happened before Christmas, but then Canadians learned a new word......prorogue. (which ironically or not, has the word "rogue" in it!:sneaky:)

nakedstudent

06-03-2009, 12:51 PM

Give me a f***ing break. You don't live here. I do. You're only listening to the reactionary conservative news sources in the US.

From the article I cited(author speaking):

"I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don’t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn’t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school—my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending. But as a Canadian, I had soaked up three things from my environment: a love of ice hockey; an ability to convert Celsius into Fahrenheit in my head; and the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks."

Who makes *you* the authority on this? Why denigrate the national health care policy of another country just because you personally don't agree with it? The federal government here does not and cannot provide everything: believe me, the Sally Ann, the Jewish and Catholic charities, the health care charities, all get lots of support from private individuals as it is ludricrous to think that our feds can help with all that is needed. Your argument is silly. Grow up and open your eyes to what other countries are doing well.

It's not my personal disagreement. Research that I've presented here (that is not American or Conservative in nature) shows clearly that there are serious flaws in the Canadian health care system. While it may lower costs, it is pretty evident that North of the Border, you get what you pay for. Waiting periods are high and bureaucrats decide which drugs are covered under your plan.

I do fundamentally disagree with somebody that I may or may not have voted for telling me how to treat my own disease. That person had no medical training, views things purely from a fiscal perspective, and doesn't know my current diseases, conditions, allergies, or any other aspect critical to correctly treating a disease.

nakedstudent

06-03-2009, 01:00 PM

That argument makes absolutely no sense at all. I think empathy is being confused with something else here.

Empathy is the ability to understand someone else's situation and feelings, and it is absolutely essential for justice.

To say that a judge should act without empathy is to say that they should make decisions in criminal cases without any understanding of the accused OR the victims, and in a civil case without any understanding of the positions of the plaintiffs or defendant. In other words they should make their rulings out of deliberate ignorance. That is not a rational argument.

I don't think that a person's life status should carry weight in the sentencing of a felon (which is what I perceive to be the suggestion from some.)

For example, why should an 18 year old kid who smokes pot twice be jailed for 4 years when a football star who might be 5 to 7 years older than him gets probation?

I view empathy as it is defined in this thread as preferential treatment or feeling remorseful for giving a tough punishment for one's actions. I've learned firsthand that when you are too "empathetic" in punishment, the punishment becomes a joke and encourages the negative behavior.

If we get justices who consider race, religion, gender, or etc and dole out differential punishments because "Oh he's a poor Hispanic who's had a tough upbringing. He deserves a break." This is wrong. If we get justices who think that way and "make policy" based on such differential items, that is wrong. It is especially important on the supreme court because the only cases they ever hear are those that involve the constitution of the US. If they are willing to loosely define who we are, things will start to fall apart.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 01:08 PM

From the article I cited(author speaking):

"I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don’t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn’t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school—my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending. But as a Canadian, I had soaked up three things from my environment: a love of ice hockey; an ability to convert Celsius into Fahrenheit in my head; and the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks."

THAT is your research???? Have you actually been inside a Canadian hospital emergency department? I have worked in several hospitals and have visited others. I have never seen what you have described from your ONE cited "research" article. Are you aware that the people who are against universal health care in the US are using disgruntled Canadians to back up their cases? There is nothing close to objective, reliable, valid research in these citations.

I do fundamentally disagree with somebody that I may or may not have voted for telling me how to treat my own disease. That person had no medical training, views things purely from a fiscal perspective, and doesn't know my current diseases, conditions, allergies, or any other aspect critical to correctly treating a disease.

Funny, my Member of Parliament has never ever told me how to treat my own disease. I'd smack him if he tried, for the record.

You seem to be perfectly okay with some insurance bureacrat dictating how you get healthcare.

Again, I say, do some proper research before you cite such stupid examples. I know you have some good critical thinking skills. You need to use them.

Boreas

06-03-2009, 01:10 PM

I don't think that a person's life status should carry weight in the sentencing of a felon (which is what I perceive to be the suggestion from some.)

For example, why should an 18 year old kid who smokes pot twice be jailed for 4 years when a football star who might be 5 to 7 years older than him gets probation?

I view empathy as it is defined in this thread as preferential treatment or feeling remorseful for giving a tough punishment for one's actions. I've learned firsthand that when you are too "empathetic" in punishment, the punishment becomes a joke and encourages the negative behavior.

If we get justices who consider race, religion, gender, or etc and dole out differential punishments because "Oh he's a poor Hispanic who's had a tough upbringing. He deserves a break." This is wrong. If we get justices who think that way and "make policy" based on such differential items, that is wrong. It is especially important on the supreme court because the only cases they ever hear are those that involve the constitution of the US. If they are willing to loosely define who we are, things will start to fall apart.

You seem to be confusing sympathy with empathy.

nimrod

06-03-2009, 02:40 PM

My big disagreement is that it is not the role of GOVERNMENT to be empathetic. We've made laws through a time tested process which ideally gives a rough estimate of the values of society as a whole. These laws are (also ideally) set up to protect people of all creeds, races, religions, genders, etc.

Those laws that are set up to protect people of all creeds, races, religion, genders, etc. used empathy to do so. If empathy was not used the laws would only be for a specific set of people, it took empathy to determine that those that were not might feel as though they are being treated unfairly because of their creed, race, religion, gender, etc.

Naturist Mark

06-03-2009, 03:35 PM

If the criteria in order to have empathy is some kind of understanding then how can someone understand what it is like to have a toothache unless the person has experienced a toothache? I would say that those who have had toothaches can offer real empathy to others with a toothache because their understanding is based upon real and first hand experiences.

If you understand what pain is, you can empathize with someone who has a toothache. Empathy doesn't have to be a perfect understanding in order to exist.

Empathy can be seen as a sort of ability to make a mental analogy. You make a connection between things you have experienced and do understand to those things that are experienced by others - and then imagine yourself in the place of the other person.

Obviously the analogy is never perfect - but we are talking about empathy, not shared experiences. Clearly the greater the range of your experiences, and the more similarity they have with those of others, the more accurately you will make those analogies. But it is not all or nothing. And like any other muscle, it works better with use.

jon71

06-03-2009, 04:48 PM

That is another good point, and I believe others have made it. The bureaucrats do not get involved directly in our healthcare. We do have guidelines which medical services must follow, and they are generally reasonably clear. Of course, they are not perfect....is anything. We will NEVER have a capitalist HMO or similar wog stepping in to tell a doctor how to practice medicine. I understand that can happen in the US. Is this accurate?

Unfortunately yes, it happens all too often. The modus operandi of an H.M.O. is like this, they break down the cases they see into three categories. The first is cases where they undeniably have to cover the claim, it's something that is flat out covered in their policy clear as day. The second is things that are obviously not covered, things like cosmetic surgery or the like. Then there are the borderline cases. H.M.O.s have people on staff who's only job is to find ways to deny the borderline calls. One of the newsmagazines (Newsweek, U.S. news and world report) had a wonderful lengthy article years ago by a woman who used to have this job. She talked about approving a voice box for a woman who I believe had a tracheotomy or something like that. She was made to feel like a Judas at work because anytime they pay a claim their profit goes down. Think about it. The fewer claims they cover, the more thier bonuses are at the end of the year. They have a strong profit motive to deny coverage anytime they can. It's a really twisted system. I would not recommend H.M.O.s for anything. I'm actually inclined to think it's better to have no coverage at all than an H.M.O. The sad thing is "normal" insurance companies are drifting in that direction. They aren't that bad yet, but I see an ugly trend.

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 04:51 PM

They are out there and they've been out there for forty years. Modify the eligibility requirements to cover more folks, increase the budget, problem solved. Why don't they discuss that?

Good question, MikeS. Expand the medicaid and medicare programs to include all people. All natural born US citizens from cradle to grave. But you know why it isn't discuss. The insurance industry won't allow it. It will take Congress and us (the people) to make the insurance industry change. Congress will not do it alone. To change health care as we now know it WE along with OUR government will have to make the change. Do you see any of your friends, neighbors, or family members willing to get involved in this? I am involved but have friends who are not. Truly sad.

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 04:59 PM

[QUOTE=Boreas;230462]Are you aware that the people who are against universal health care in the US are using disgruntled Canadians to back up their cases? There is nothing close to objective, reliable, valid research in these citations.

You seem to be perfectly okay with some insurance bureacrat dictating how you get healthcare.

[QUOTE]

How very true as well as disgruntled US citizens who are anti-government. The only way we will have coverage for all is through a universal health care program. It doesn't have to be government runned or controlled but it will have to be monitored by a dedicated government agency for compliance and fraud as a check and balance. The current insurance industry we have today would never be able to handle a universal health care program for this country so we will have to come up with a governing entity to handle health care.

Since all of us who work pay medicaid taxes out of out payroll checks (which varies from state-to-state), reallocate these monies to the universal health care plan along with all state contributing x amount.

Universal health care can be designed and implemented. We have the knowledge and leadership base to do it. We just have to get rid of the current insurance industry.

Any takers?

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 05:11 PM

[quote=Boreas;230462]Are you aware that the people who are against universal health care in the US are using disgruntled Canadians to back up their cases? There is nothing close to objective, reliable, valid research in these citations.

You seem to be perfectly okay with some insurance bureacrat dictating how you get healthcare.

[quote]

How very true as well as disgruntled US citizens who are anti-government. The only way we will have coverage for all is through a universal health care program. It doesn't have to be government runned or controlled but it will have to be monitored by a dedicated government agency for compliance and fraud as a check and balance. The current insurance industry we have today would never be able to handle a universal health care program for this country so we will have to come up with a governing entity to handle health care.

Since all of us who work pay medicaid taxes out of out payroll checks (which varies from state-to-state), reallocate these monies to the universal health care plan along with all state contributing x amount.

Universal health care can be designed and implemented. We have the knowledge and leadership base to do it. We just have to get rid of the current insurance industry.

Any takers?

No takers because too many people have shown that they are too damn lazy and full of excuses to be bothered with donig anything about establishing such a system except for complaining about the present system. Also, those who have adequate medical insurance obviously do not care about those that don't. The status quo remains for the forseable future.

MoonShadow

06-03-2009, 05:15 PM

[QUOTE=Sanslines;230501 Also, those who have adequate medical insurance obviously do not care about those that don't. The status quo remains for the forseable future.[/QUOTE]

You're spot on! Those who are already covered by medical care through their employers do not care about the uninsured even though you will hear how they "feel" - empathize? ;) with these individuals.

To change our current broken health care system, it will required EVERYONE. You would think, employers who offer these expensive health care programs would be on the bandwagon also.

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 05:20 PM

Those laws that are set up to protect people of all creeds, races, religion, genders, etc. used empathy to do so. If empathy was not used the laws would only be for a specific set of people, it took empathy to determine that those that were not might feel as though they are being treated unfairly because of their creed, race, religion, gender, etc.

This opens up a whole new hornets nest about the governments ability to be empathetic. The government is generally seen as a huge monolithic bureaucracy that is unable to be empathetic in spite of the rhetoric to the contrary. Concerning government empathy:

http://contexts.org/eye/tag/government/

http://appalachianconservative.wordpress.com/2009/05/17/the-problem-with-empathy/

http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=25668

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 05:21 PM

You're spot on! Those who are already covered by medical care through their employers do not care about the uninsured even though you will hear how they "feel" - empathize? ;) with these individuals.

To change our current broken health care system, it will required EVERYONE. You would think, employers who offer these expensive health care programs would be on the bandwagon also.

Where is everyone? Why is everyone so quiet and unwilling to work for change? Do they expect Obama to do all of the hard work and just sit back and watch?

Sanslines

06-03-2009, 05:27 PM

If you understand what pain is, you can empathize with someone who has a toothache. Empathy doesn't have to be a perfect understanding in order to exist.

Empathy can be seen as a sort of ability to make a mental analogy. You make a connection between things you have experienced and do understand to those things that are experienced by others - and then imagine yourself in the place of the other person.

Obviously the analogy is never perfect - but we are talking about empathy, not shared experiences. Clearly the greater the range of your experiences, and the more similarity they have with those of others, the more accurately you will make those analogies. But it is not all or nothing. And like any other muscle, it works better with use.

If there is not a better understanding of just exaclty what empathy is, then for many "Empathy" is just camouflage, a soothing word for those who do not look beyond nice-sounding rhetoric."

David77

06-03-2009, 07:32 PM

Fitz1980

06-04-2009, 02:49 AM

Where is everyone? Why is everyone so quiet and unwilling to work for change? Do they expect Obama to do all of the hard work and just sit back and watch?

That's called "slacktivism." A term coined by anti-internet fraud crusader Barbara Mikkelson (of www.snopes.com), defined slacktivism as "the desire people have to do something good without getting out of their chair."

Sanslines

06-04-2009, 03:59 AM

That's called "slacktivism." A term coined by anti-internet fraud crusader Barbara Mikkelson (of www.snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com)), defined slacktivism as "the desire people have to do something good without getting out of their chair."

To quote David "So true. Bravo! Bravo!"

LamontCranston

06-04-2009, 05:45 AM

To change health care as we now know it WE along with OUR government will have to make the change. Do you see any of your friends, neighbors, or family members willing to get involved in this? Yes I do. My daughter was on a conference call a week ago with Pres. Obama (and 1,000's of others) where he talked about a grass roots health care discussion coming from us. Go to barackobama.com and check it out. June 6th there are discussion groups getting together to kick off a health care campaign. Put in your zip code and see if there's one near you. I think these groups can dial into another conference call.

I don't like my employer or their health plan. They tighten eligibility, raise premiums, raise deductibles and send me WebMD spam. If I want to talk to anyone, I'm connected to India where someone reads a script and sends me a survey on how well they did.

These insurance companies fight people on coverage for years, then get into financial trouble, call themselves a "financial institution" and get awarded taxpayer bailout money. The pervasive greed and corruption implied by these events is disgusting.

I'm a life-long Republican and I'm not happy with the advantage big business is given on my back.

Sanslines

06-04-2009, 06:08 AM

To change our current broken health care system, it will required EVERYONE. You would think, employers who offer these expensive health care programs would be on the bandwagon also.

Obama Shifts on Coverage Mandate

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124405714406182199.html

Republicans Offer Health-Care Plan

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124286548605041517.html?mod=sphere_ts&mod=sphere_wd

One of the biggest differences between the Obama plan and the Republican plan is that Obama would allow individuals the option of buying into a government sponsored health care plan. The Republicans strongly oppose this for it would put out of business many private insurance companies that are currently raking in untold millions in profits. It is obvious that the Republicans are protecting their special interest groups ie the insurance companies at the expense of public health and are oblivious to the fact that the numbers of uninsured will only grow under their plan.

Being so out of touch with the average American will ensure that the Republicans continue to lose elections. Under such out of touch thinking, Obama is all but guaranteed to be reelected and serve out a full 8 years.

Enough of endless big profits for big business and the select few who pile up millions upon millions at the expense of the nation. It is past time to put the needs of the people first as far as health care is concerned.

Fair competition is one thing. Unlimited greed and selfishness is quite another.

marko486

06-04-2009, 07:42 AM

One of many reasons the Republicans will be in the wilderness for a long time. Insurance issue is one that affects small business owners greatly. The company I work for has had to contend with double digit increases every year for healthcare. Democrats will need to get spending under control in a couple years or that will be their downfall. The endless cycle, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do have higher hopes for Obama, though, as he is the least attached to any special interest then any president in a very long time. My faith in Congress, not so much.

ki4kxq

06-04-2009, 01:47 PM

Sanslines

06-04-2009, 02:39 PM

How many more sad stories like this do we have to read before enough people take to the streets and demand real change???

Recession Pushes Drug Costs Out of Reach For Many

Many Americans Unable To Afford Life Saving Prescriptions:

"Even with the Medicare drug benefit, even with the prevalence of low-cost generics, even with loss-leader discounting by big chains, many Americans still find themselves unable to afford the prescription medications that manage their life-threatening conditions."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31103876

Medical Bills Figure In Bulk Of Bankruptcies

Many Americans Unable To Pay Their Medical Bills:

"WASHINGTON - Medical bills are involved in more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies, an increase of 50 percent in just six years, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31103572

Sanslines

06-04-2009, 02:49 PM

One of the best things to come down the pike in the US in quite some time is the HSA accounts. These health insurance accounts have high deductibles, $5000 to $10,000. Because of the high deductibles, they have low monthly premiums. Attached is a savings account that you can put pre-tax dollars in to pay deductibles, meds, and things like eyeglasses, dental work, etc.

These plans make people much better consumers of health care. They tend to check bills when they wouldn't if someone else was footing the entire bill. They tend not to go to the doctor for things like "traumatic hangnails". It puts them in control of their health care. The lower premiums make them affordable to most working people. After the deductibles are met in a year, the policy pays 100% generally.

Anytime someone else is paying for your healthcare, they will decide what treatments you will get. It doesn't matter whether it's the government or insurance companies. When you put yourself in a position where a third party is paying the majority of your health care expenses, you put yourself at risk for being denied care. Let's all be honest here, it happens in Canada and other places that have socialized care, no matter how badly folks want to deny it. It also happens here where people are 100% dependent on health insurance companies and government programs. That is why these HSA plans are becoming more and more popular.

My personal policy has a $5000 deductible. I just had a total abdominal hysterectomy 4 weeks ago. There was no waiting, no fighting my insurance company. My total out of pocket for the surgery was $4400. My deductible for the year has now been met so everything will be paid 100% the rest of the year. I do not have prescription drug coverage, I pay that myself with my HSA. By the way, my monthly premium is $135. Pretty affordable since I'm 47 with asthma.

Bottom line, it's up to people to pay their own way if they don't want to fight about what's covered. The days of employers paying 100% are quickly going by the wayside.

Better yet, we could allow everyone the option of buying into Medicare or take up medical tourism.

The Untold Benefits of Medical Tourism (http://blog.placidway.com/2009/04/22/the-untold-benefits-of-medical-tourism/)
Wednesday,April 22nd, 2009

The rising cost of health care, insurance, and demand has forced many natives to seek help across borders. As such, more and more Americans are traveling to Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Guatemala for cosmetic and dental procedures. Natives from Australia and New Zealand travel to Singapore and Thailand to save on orthopedic and dental procedures as well. Even Western Europeans from England, France and Germany are traveling to Hungary and Poland for premium vision and dental care procedures, as well as the most common elective surgical procedures like cosmetic and plastic surgery.

Why this growing trend in cross-border medical travel (http://www.placidway.com/article/79/Health%20&%20Wellness%20Tourism:%20The%20Next%20Great%20Heal thcare%20Frontier)?

Everything from cosmetic surgery to dental needs, to hip replacement surgeries are available in countries like Argentina, Singapore, India, Hungary and Thailand. Many of the facilities found in those countries are regulated and accredited by Medical Association accrediting boards in the United States.

The cost of procedures around the world drastically differs. For example, bypass surgery in the United States can cost up to $35,000. The same procedure provided in India costs $6,000.

Transplant procedures in the United States and Britain can cost up to $200,000.

Orthopedic surgery abroad, cancer treatment abroad, obesity/bariatric surgery (http://www.placidway.com/treatment-detail/19/Obesity/Bariatric-Surgery-Treatment-Abroad/)abroad and procedures involving cosmetic and plastic surgery abroad are just a few of the procedures and treatments available today that promotes quality care at affordable prices. Explore your options. Don’t think that you have to receive treatment at your local hospital. Your medical care can be found in high quality and state of the art destinations around the world. Nowadays, the world is literally your oyster.

http://blog.placidway.com/tag/cost-of-procedures/

Of course it is ludicrous to expect Americans to travel to other countries out of necessity for affordable medical procedures but this is just another indication of how broken our medical system really is.

Sanslines

06-04-2009, 04:32 PM

For those interested:

Canadian And American Health Care Compared

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

MoonShadow

06-04-2009, 08:06 PM

Bottom line, it's up to people to pay their own way if they don't want to fight about what's covered. The days of employers paying 100% are quickly going by the wayside.

Yes, it is up to people and it's easy to say but not practical as those making minimum wage who work for companies with no health coverage cannot afford to pay the premiums even with an enormous deductible of 5 grand (and how many of them could even pay the deductible?) A lot of people would get their own health care coverage IF they could afford to pay the monthly premiums. Many people who have lost their jobs and are older workers are finding out that they cannot afford COBRA coverage so they don't sign up for it and then when they look for coverage, they find they have to pay $250 (single) plus a month. Try doing this on unemployment and also covering your mortgage, utilities, home and auto insurance, etc.

Employees who work for companies are not getting 100% coverage; it is usually an 80/20 or 70/30 coverage with deductibles and employees pay x amount a month.

Our current system is broken. The insurance industry is out of control and more and more people are becoming uninsured.

LamontCranston

06-05-2009, 04:11 AM

Many people who have lost their jobs and are older workers are finding out that they cannot afford COBRA coverage so they don't sign up for it and then when they look for coverage, they find they have to pay $250 (single) plus a month. Try doing this on unemployment and also covering your mortgage, utilities, home and auto insurance, etc. I'm not "older" yet but this happened to me. I was laid off and took the COBRA coverage and it was about $230 per month for single coverage. I paid it along with the other things on this list, except you left off condo fee and groceries.

I never did collect unemployment... not a single check. I took my severance pay and started a business. The business only brought in about half my previous salary and I ran up a home equity loan and two credit cards to cover the tight spots. After three years I had to give it up and get a regular paycheck job.

That was three years ago and I've since sold the condo without going into forclosure. I'm still paying down the debt. It's a tough road sometimes but I can do it without a bailout or "government program."

Naturist Mark

06-05-2009, 06:20 AM

One of the best things to come down the pike in the US in quite some time is the HSA accounts.

Health Savings Accounts Are A Scam (http://blog.healthcareforamericanow.org/2008/08/02/health-savings-accounts-are-a-scam/) - unless you are healthy and wealthy. <blockquote>Not only do health savings accounts redistribute wealth upwards, they undermine the basic notion of risk-sharing.

So, to recap:

Health savings accounts allow insurance companies to keep more money.
They offer tax shelters to the wealthy,
while hard working Americans pay more out of pocket,
and parents are forced to worry about their bank accounts instead of the health of their children.

In short, health savings accounts are a scam.</blockquote>

MoonShadow

06-05-2009, 07:55 AM

Hats off to you, Mike S! You were among the fortunate who had to struggle but still could manage it on your own.

Others are not so fortunate as many don't even get severance pay of more than a month or two and are low wage earners so they have to take unemployment from the companies who laid them off. These are the individuals who cannot afford health premiums so they did without and hoped for the best as far as their health was concern. I am also talking about people who were not slouches either and who went out there and looked for other employment but had to do without any health coverage. I have been among such individuals and you take the gamble, you have to.

Boreas

06-05-2009, 08:16 AM

My personal policy has a $5000 deductible. I just had a total abdominal hysterectomy 4 weeks ago. There was no waiting, no fighting my insurance company. My total out of pocket for the surgery was $4400. My deductible for the year has now been met so everything will be paid 100% the rest of the year. I do not have prescription drug coverage, I pay that myself with my HSA. By the way, my monthly premium is $135. Pretty affordable since I'm 47 with asthma.

Wow ki4.....do you realize that if you lived in my province you would not have to pay for that surgery. You would not have to fight the government or anyone else if you and your doctor decided that was the route you needed to go. You might not get it immediately, but you also would not have an unreasonable wait. We pay $98 per month for the two of us for our provincial health insurance. I think that might be the family rate, but I am not sure. Also, the only reason we are paying it is that we are self-employed. Most employers cover that cost.

I must say though, you are helping me to put something into perspective. I am probably looking at surgery on my foot. I can get it done by an orthopedic surgeon and will not have to pay out of pocket for the procedure. I could also get the podiatrist to do it for about $2500. I will be waiting about three months for the orthopod........that is good for me because I will need to get my life sorted out. I am also really thinking this through, because as a self-employed person, I will be losing income in addition to any fee I would pay if I use the podiatrist. I would find it difficult, though not impossible, to consider a $5000 deductible. People on lower incomes as MoonShadow mentioned, would find it impossible.

These plans make people much better consumers of health care. They tend to check bills when they wouldn't if someone else was footing the entire bill. They tend not to go to the doctor for things like "traumatic hangnails". It puts them in control of their health care. The lower premiums make them affordable to most working people. After the deductibles are met in a year, the policy pays 100% generally.

This is not the only way to make people better consumers of health care. Education also helps. As I mentioned previously, having a network of services, so that there are more cost effective choices also helps. This province, and others, has a phone in health line, and an internet website so people can learn how to respond to health issues and when it is appropriate to see a doctor. When issues such as the flu outbreak happen, there is a more visible education campaign letting people how to manage any symptoms, and when they should see the doctor. I think you would find that the people seeing the doctor for "traumatic hangnails" does not happen, and if it does, it is an extreme minority. You will likely find that even in systems where people pay.

The whole notion of everyone taking absolute responsibility for their own ability to access health care shows me that empathy and compassion (not sympathy necessarily) are needed in these decisions. The cult of the individual and the worship of the almighty dollar are signs of self-centredness to me, and a decided lack of empathy. The fact is that sometimes life happens and we find ourselves suddenly and unexpectedly involved with the health care system. Most people are too busy living their lives and making ends meet. Catastrophic health emergencies can ruin ANYONE financially. Health care is not like widgets and it's efficacy must be measured in more than dollars and cents.

Sanslines

06-05-2009, 09:08 AM

The whole notion of everyone taking absolute responsibility for their own ability to access health care shows me that empathy and compassion (not sympathy necessarily) are needed in these decisions. The cult of the individual and the worship of the almighty dollar are signs of self-centredness to me, and a decided lack of empathy. The fact is that sometimes life happens and we find ourselves suddenly and unexpectedly involved with the health care system. Most people are too busy living their lives and making ends meet. Catastrophic health emergencies can ruin ANYONE financially. Health care is not like widgets and it's efficacy must be measured in more than dollars and cents.

What's lacking in this entire discussion is that a percentage of people are just not able to take absolute responsibility for their own ability to access health care. This does not mean that people are stupid. This does mean that health care is too important to allow people to gamble or make the wrong choices. When people make the wrong choices, such as investing health care money in stocks instead of purchasing health care and then those people get sick, it will be the taxpayers who will pay for those decisions in one way, shape, or form.

The interesting observation about the Obama plan is that he is not outlawing existing private health care. He has openly stated that those who are happy with their present health care arrangements can
continue such coverage. He has only offered another option that involves a governement backed and sponsored health care plan option.
Instead of reciprocating by deomonstrating tolerance, the private insurance companies deride this plan as being unfair competition, wasteful, etc. The private insurance companies really don't have much of a leg to stand on when they preach from their shiny new downtown skyscrapers that were funded from the premiums of their policyholders.

Boreas

06-05-2009, 09:20 AM

What's lacking in this entire discussion is that a percentage of people are just not able to take absolute responsibility for their own ability to access health care. This does not mean that people are stupid. This does mean that health care is too important to allow people to gamble or make the wrong choices. When people make the wrong choices, such as investing health care money in stocks instead of purchasing health care and then those people get sick, it will be the taxpayers who will pay for those decisions in one way, shape, or form.

And sometimes people make choices such as paying for food and shelter, and have nothing left over. It may not be a case of "allowing" people to gamble or make wrong choices. It may be that some people do not have as many choices as others. Sure, ki4kxq will tell us that if you work 80 hours per week, you can afford anything. Well, even that is not realistic for many. It is also not desirable. Personally, COULD easily work that many hours......it would probably result in me needing health care!

As a Canadian, I find it absolutely puzzling that health care is seen as a commodity in this manner. I am aware of the different frame of reference, and of the insurance companies' desire to make money. I do not want the government to rule my life any more than I would want the insurance companies to do this. I do see the government as being capable of being a sort of umbrella or safety net at times. I know it can be done in a way that does not involve government being overly involved in our lives. Perhaps it is more possible in a Parliamentary/federalist system, than in a Republic type system........I suspect it is also possible in the US system. It will be a tough haul and I commend President Obama for taking this on.

riptidenj

06-05-2009, 11:12 AM

Sanslines

06-05-2009, 01:17 PM

Sure, ki4kxq will tell us that if you work 80 hours per week, you can afford anything. Well, even that is not realistic for many. It is also not desirable. Personally, COULD easily work that many hours......it would probably result in me needing health care!

This assumes that a person can find work in the first place. Here in the USA we seem to be having a slight problem with unemployment at the present time.

richo

06-05-2009, 04:22 PM

I would not define people who lack empathy as sociopaths. It is true that the current definition of Anti Social Personality Disorder-formerly sociopath then psychopath-includes
"lack of empathy for others" or as my mother once put it "people who can't spend more than 10 seconds a day thinking about anybody but themselves".
The problem I have with words like empathy is that those who use them usually don't distinguish between those who have problems through no fault of their own and those who
do. For example, as someone who has enjoyed excellent health I have empathy for those, such as my late cousin, who, for the 30 or so years that I knew her was confined to a wheelchair by multiple sclerosis, those afflicted with juvenile diabetes, etc., those suffering from physical handicaps, birth defects, etc. As an Army veteran who came back without a
scratch I have empathy for those who didn't and bear the scars that are badges of honor.
I have empathy for those suffering from economic hardship due to job loss because they worked for badly managed companies run by greedy and selfish and incompetent and crooked bosses, etc.
I do not have empathy for those who have health problems brought on by lifestyle choices, bad attitudes, immorality, amorality, etc. Who have no work ethos, who do not believe in the value of education, who feel they are entitled to be supported by others
and refuse to accept their responsibility for their problems.

Actually, what you don't have is sympathy. Empathy is being able to experience the shared emotion; sympathy is doing so in a positive manner.

And, on a separate note, "amoral" is not the same - or even classifiable with - immoral. Something that is amoral has no bearing on morality or reference to it. Picking the color of a shirt is, generally, and amoral choice - morality doesn't factor into it. Traffic laws are amoral: they have nothing to do with "good" or "evil".

Back on topic, there are people who have no empathy (or limited empathy). I, for example, have a very difficult time empathizing with people; it's most likely a neurological/neurochemical issue, as I have some other strange facets to my neurology as well. I can, logically or rationally, understand what someone else is experiencing or going through, but it is extremely difficult for me to internalize any of that understanding. As a result, I have to actually stop and think about the connotations of what I'm saying more than most people seem to need to do, and many of my friends are used to me "going Data" (as one friend puts it) and approaching a subject from an almost entirely abstracted/impersonal point of view.

That's not to say I have *no* empathy, which probably would put someone in a sociopathic position (just like having no sense of pain makes some children extremely dangerous, to themselves and others). Empathy would, theoretically, not be required for a social system, but it most likely makes maintenance of said social systems much easier.

Boreas

06-05-2009, 04:35 PM

This assumes that a person can find work in the first place. Here in the USA we seem to be having a slight problem with unemployment at the present time.

Well, that is a good point too! Plus, if you have a McJob, you will have problems making ends meet.

That old Free Market ain't all that it is made out to be! :D

Naturist Mark

06-05-2009, 08:44 PM

Sanslines

06-06-2009, 04:21 AM

Ooops!

I was wrong in an earlier post when I said about half of all personal bankruptcies in the US are due to medical costs. That was true back in 2001 ... the latest figures are more like 62% - and 78% of those filing had medical insurance.

From BusinessWeek: Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily)

I am curous why there is never any discussion or media reports about those who end up in bankruptcy or become homeless because thay can not pay their property taxes. As we all know, if you do not pay your property taxes, then the government may ultimately seize your property and sell it off at auction.

LamontCranston

06-06-2009, 05:44 AM

Sans pontificates from his throne... "What's lacking in this entire discussion is that a percentage of people are just not able to take absolute responsibility for their own ability to access health care. This does not mean that people are stupid. This does mean that health care is too important to allow people to gamble or make the wrong choices. :confused: And a career path is too important to allow people to decide, an education is too important to allow people to make choices, whether or not to get married and to whom is too important to handle on your own, which doctor to see and whether or not to listen to him or her is not something to fool with, and the timing and quantity of children and where you all live is certainly not something people should decide without government advice and authority.

It's called freedom. Freedom to succeed and freedom to fail. When people make wrong choices, they are exercising their freedom and they are learning from their mistakes. Or maybe they will discover something new.

You want to take it away. Some of the stuff you write is so out of whack I wonder if you even proofread it. :(

Boreas

06-06-2009, 08:22 AM

MikeS, I did not see where Sans was suggesting that the government decide what to do for people. What do you suggest happen to people who for whatever reason cannot attain great financial success, or who must work at McJobs, or need support from others?

As a person living in a country with universal health care, I believe I have more freedom because of this form of health care. I do not need to worry about whether my trip to the doctor will ultimately lead to bankruptcy. I know that I can get excellent care for most health concerns I may have. If I wish to go outside the covered services to plastic surgery for instance, I can. I do not have some insurance wog telling my doctor how to practice medicine. In the next couple of weeks I will be talking to a physiotherapist, my GP and an orthopaedic surgeon (second visit to him in the month). My only expense will be about $40 for the physio appointment. I may choose to see the podiatrist, and will also have to pay a nominal fee for his services. I would probably even see these people if I had to pay for each one. It is nice I do not have to pay (in addition to my health insurance and taxes) and can make this decision without this added stress.

Sometimes basic health and social services make our lives better and give us more freedom. It is absolutely unrealistic to believe that everyone is capable of making ideal choices. Yes, we all learn from experience. Some people learn after they have fallen on their faces, and have received some help to get back on their feet. Some people will need support for most or all of their lives. How we treat the weakest among us is a measure of a community. And country.

Sanslines

06-06-2009, 08:26 AM

:confused: And a career path is too important to allow people to decide, an education is too important to allow people to make choices, whether or not to get married and to whom is too important to handle on your own, which doctor to see and whether or not to listen to him or her is not something to fool with, and the timing and quantity of children and where you all live is certainly not something people should decide without government advice and authority.

It's called freedom. Freedom to succeed and freedom to fail. When people make wrong choices, they are exercising their freedom and they are learning from their mistakes. Or maybe they will discover something new.

You want to take it away. Some of the stuff you write is so out of whack I wonder if you even proofread it. :(

Thought I was on your ignore list. What happened...... got bored? Lost contact with your idols?

FYI freedom to make decisions carries consequences. There are those who are unable to make such decisions and the result as far as health care is concerned involves unecessary sickness and death. It appears that only genuine compassionate and caring individuals would understand this. I would not expect someone who posts such a callous reply as yours to understand the concept of 'being your brother's keeper'. Freedom has limits as the housing bankruptcy fiasco has clearly demonstrated. The damage is just too great for society. You may read (or may not read) what I post, but you cleary do not comprehend it.

Sanslines

06-06-2009, 05:42 PM

Obama to take a greater role on health care

"...........But Mr. Obama has grown concerned that he is losing the debate over certain policy prescriptions he favors, like a government-run insurance plan to compete with the private sector, said one Democrat familiar with his thinking. "

".............If he embraces a tax on employee benefits, an idea he attacked when he was running for president, he may infuriate labor and the middle class. If he insists on a big-government plan in the image of Medicare, he could lose any hope of Republican support and ignite an insurance industry backlash. If he does not come up with credible ways to pay for his plan, which by some estimates could cost more than $1 trillion over 10 years, moderate Democrats could balk."

"...........Many Republicans are already angry over the emphasis Mr. Obama placed on the public plan in last week’s letter. Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, said Friday that “the key to a bipartisan bill is not to have a government plan in the bill.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31143790

Yes the price that Obama would have to pay for bipartisan Republican support is to abandon his vision of a government plan in the image of Medicare that would allow individuals to buy into the program. Hopefully, Obama will chose wisely and abandon bipartisan support in favor of extending a Medicare type of program to all and ending the viscious cycle of exponentially increasing premiums, skyrocketing deductables, a dizzying myriad of health care plans and options that are geared more towards enriching the insurance companies at the expense of providing basic health care to citizens, etc.

ki4kxq

06-06-2009, 08:15 PM

:confused: And a career path is too important to allow people to decide, an education is too important to allow people to make choices, whether or not to get married and to whom is too important to handle on your own, which doctor to see and whether or not to listen to him or her is not something to fool with, and the timing and quantity of children and where you all live is certainly not something people should decide without government advice and authority.

It's called freedom. Freedom to succeed and freedom to fail. When people make wrong choices, they are exercising their freedom and they are learning from their mistakes. Or maybe they will discover something new.

You want to take it away. Some of the stuff you write is so out of whack I wonder if you even proofread it. :(

You are correct. The logic Sanslines offered can be used to take any decision making power away from the people.

What nobody wants to confront is that most hardships are due to ones own decisions. Notice I said most, not all. Is the person working at Walmart there because they chose not to get an education? Bad choices can get you into bad places. However, that doesn't need to be the end of the story. Good decisions from that point can get you to a much better situation. That is the issue no one dare touch. And no, you don't have to work 80 hours a week. Ask minimum wagers who just got voted off the island or American Idol. Most can tell you. Strangely enough though, they don't seem to have the time to read a book or do something equally constructive to better their situation.

I'm with LC. Give me freedom. Freedom to fail and make wrong choices means freedom to succeed also. Let me feel the hurt from my inattention or wrong choices so that I don't make the same mistakes again. If everything is taken care of for me, where is the joy in accomplishment?

David77

06-07-2009, 03:46 AM

What nobody wants to confront is that most hardships are due to ones own decisions. Notice I said most, not all.

This brings us to the subject of "free will". How free are we from heredity, environment, and random happenstance? Can most persons pull themselves up by their boot-straps?

We who were born healthy in the USA (by happenstance) have an advantage in some ways, as compared to some third world countries, as well as to those forbearers in long history throughout the centuries. Hopefully we may be truly able to take full, good advantage of any situation which we are in.

Sanslines

06-07-2009, 04:16 AM

What nobody wants to confront is that most hardships are due to ones own decisions.

Most bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. Are you trying to say that most people have decided to have heart attacks, cancers, and other ailments or it is their fault becuase they could not afford medical insurance or to have saved enough money to pay hundreds of thousands of dollar out of pocket?

Deregulation allowed the housing foreclosure fiasco to occur. The entire system broke down and everyone shares responsibility - from Main street to Wall street. Some people were clearly greedy and created their own mess that led to foreclosure. Others did not and the mortgage lenders bear the full responsibility of lending to those that they knew could never repay their mortgage. Government regulations would have prevented this entire disaster and the ensuing taxpayer bailouts. The result of this deregulated mess is that a percentage of people wound up homeless while others in the mortgage and banking business wound up millionaires. Do you really want a system that is so openly heartless that creates an environment that basically takes earned money from one segment of society and allows it to be given to another? Are you aware that such systems in other countries have led to revolution and anarchy? Is this the end result that you want for your freedom?

There is no such thing as freedom. Sadly, due to the ever growing number of people, whenever people have been given freedom, a certain percentage of those people abuse freedom at the expense of others and give government an excuse to grow larger and create more regulation and oversight. If you don't want more government, then don't give government an excuse to grow larger.

Sanslines

06-07-2009, 04:21 AM

This brings us to the subject of "free will". How free are we from heredity, environment, and random happenstance? Can most persons pull themselves up by their boot-straps?

We who were born healthy in the USA (by happenstance) have an advantage in some ways, as compared to some third world countries, as well as to those forbearers in long history throughout the centuries. Hopefully we may be truly able to take full, good advantage of any situation which we are in.

I agree. I find it fascinating how we are still a very segmented society. When I ride city busses in Philly, I find very few whites riding the bus. They all live in the 'burbs and all drive into the city. They really have no idea what life is like in the inner city and really don't want to know. Anyone who has ever spent any time in the inner city knows of the unique problems and challenges that exist. It is easy for someone who has never spent time in the inner city to tell people to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. However, anyone who has spent any time in the inner city knows that this is so much easier said then done. David, as a social worker, I believe that you know exactly what I am talking about.

Illinois59

06-07-2009, 05:13 AM

Most bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. Are you trying to say that most people have decided to have heart attacks, cancers, and other ailments or it is their fault becuase they could not afford medical insurance or to have saved enough money to pay hundreds of thousands of dollar out of pocket?

Deregulation allowed the housing foreclosure fiasco to occur. The entire system broke down and everyone shares responsibility - from Main street to Wall street. Some people were clearly greedy and created their own mess that led to foreclosure. Others did not and the mortgage lenders bear the full responsibility of lending to those that they knew could never repay their mortgage. Government regulations would have prevented this entire disaster and the ensuing taxpayer bailouts. The result of this deregulated mess is that a percentage of people wound up homeless while others in the mortgage and banking business wound up millionaires. Do you really want a system that is so openly heartless that creates an environment that basically takes earned money from one segment of society and allows it to be given to another? Are you aware that such systems in other countries have led to revolution and anarchy? Is this the end result that you want for your freedom?

There is no such thing as freedom. Sadly, due to the ever growing number of people, whenever people have been given freedom, a certain percentage of those people abuse freedom at the expense of others and give government an excuse to grow larger and create more regulation and oversight. If you don't want more government, then don't give government an excuse to grow larger.

When I see the words "What ever happened to personal responsibility?" I have to wonder if the writer means that only those get into difficulties are acting irresponsibly? Seems to me that a banker who approves a loan to a person who obviously cannot make the payments is more irresponsible than the person getting the loan. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the banker has a better understanding of the implications of the loan terms than the person seeking the loan? Or do we believe fully in "buyer beware" and any way to separate a person from his money is ok, after all, money is the goal and morals are for somebody else.

Sanslines

06-07-2009, 05:22 AM

When I see the words "What ever happened to personal responsibility?" I have to wonder if the writer means that only those get into difficulties are acting irresponsibly? Seems to me that a banker who approves a loan to a person who obviously cannot make the payments is more irresponsible than the person getting the loan. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the banker has a better understanding of the implications of the loan terms than the person seeking the loan? Or do we believe fully in "buyer beware" and any way to separate a person from his money is ok, after all, money is the goal and morals are for somebody else.

Further, what do we say to the eldery who can no longer afford to live because the cost of utilities, food, and pharmaceuticals have grown beyond their means to afford them? Do we tell them to just go out and get jobs when we know that there is rampant age descrimination and that we have a tremendous lack of jobs at the present moment? Do we tell them that it is their fault because the didn't save enough money? It is a very scary fact today that many people are very concerned about outliving their savings.

I believe that the Obama plan to include a govenrment health plan is actually being fiscally responsible and conservative. For once, he is attempting to reign in exponentially increasing health costs. It is any wonder that the insurance and medical companies will fight him tooth and nail? He will end their gravy train. I also believe that the Republicans are once again out of touch with mainstream American because they fail to acknowledge that more and more people have had enough of having their money basically extorted by insurance and medical companies. They no longer can afford it! The Repubs solution always seems to create more ways to pander to the insurance companies and to enrich them at the expense of the people. This has become so out of control that people are starting to revolt against it. Unless the Repubs wake up, they will not be winning many elections anytime soon.

David77

06-07-2009, 06:10 AM

David, as a social worker, I believe that you know exactly what I am talking about.
I well know what you are talking about after having worked 38 years as a social worker. It also helped to "know" more, by majoring in psychology and then going on to attend graduate social work school at University of Kansas.

Some persons tell me that they suppose, from my being a social work for 38 years, that I have "seen it all" and I tend to agree.

Sanslines

06-07-2009, 06:28 AM

I well know what you are talking about after having worked 38 years as a social worker. It also helped to "know" more, by majoring in psychology and then going on to attend graduate social work school at University of Kansas.

Some persons tell me that they suppose, from my being a social work for 38 years, that I have "seen it all" and I tend to agree.

Then again there will be those who will tell you that "you ain't seen nothin yet!" lol

LamontCranston

06-07-2009, 07:01 AM

What do you suggest happen to people who for whatever reason cannot attain great financial success, or who must work at McJobs, or need support from others? Couple of things..

I've provided healthcare coverage for myself and family my entire working life. My parents did the same before me. My three brothers do the same. So do the people up and down the neighborhood here. No of us have achieved "great financial success."

A person can go 15 years or more (teens, 20's, 30's, 40's) without seeing a doctor and be just fine. If that person doesn't have health insurance during that period there's no problem, except they are a number on a list that *must* be helped. So what do you mean by "healthcare"? Compulsory annual doctor visits and tests with expensive machines and labs so that the government can accumulate a GIANT database? (strongly opposed) Hospital coverage due to accident or disease? (sure, there's work to be done there)

As I've said before, here in the U.S. we have two HUGE social programs (Medicare and Medicaid) that provide medical coverage to poor, disadvanted and elderly. If you are eligible, you're in. They've got large provider networks (including hospitals), no premiums, no co-payments, and the programs have been in place and working for 40 years.

As for the McJobs people low on the wage scale? UNIONIZE. If they want it, they can organize and demand it. So can I, so can you. We need someone like Jimmy Hoffa working this problem, not the President, Senators, and Congressmen.

Illinois59

06-07-2009, 08:41 AM

What nobody wants to confront is that most hardships are due to ones own decisions. Notice I said most, not all. Is the person working at Walmart there because they chose not to get an education? Bad choices can get you into bad places. However, that doesn't need to be the end of the story. Good decisions from that point can get you to a much better situation. That is the issue no one dare touch. And no, you don't have to work 80 hours a week. Ask minimum wagers who just got voted off the island or American Idol. Most can tell you. Strangely enough though, they don't seem to have the time to read a book or do something equally constructive to better their situation.

This is another theory of some people that does not reflect reality. A degree in a field where there are ten applicants for every job simply means that nine of those ten applicants will not get a job in that field and the one that does get selected will face low pay and few benefits simply because of the "supply and demand" factor. Doesn't it seem logical that the employer would take the applicant who would work for the lowest wage if he was to chose one from a field of ten? So then what are the other nine going to do if they cannot find a job in the field of their degree? Obviously, take what they can get for a job and it just might be Wal-Mart. On the flip side of the argument, if in a fantasy world every one got a degree and had a job as a lawyer, doctor, scientist, etc., how would mankind survive? Don't you think people would still be needed to provide the essentials of food, clothing, transportation, etc. as many types of work in these fields do not require a degree? Sorry, but society as we know it cannot exist without many different levels of labor and education and it is also a fact that a college education does not mean you are guaranteed a high paying job, or, for that matter, any job at all.

Sanslines

06-07-2009, 09:21 AM

This is another theory of some people that does not reflect reality. A degree in a field where there are ten applicants for every job simply means that nine of those ten applicants will not get a job in that field and the one that does get selected will face low pay and few benefits simply because of the "supply and demand" factor. Doesn't it seem logical that the employer would take the applicant who would work for the lowest wage if he was to chose one from a field of ten? So then what are the other nine going to do if they cannot find a job in the field of their degree? Obviously, take what they can get for a job and it just might be Wal-Mart. On the flip side of the argument, if in a fantasy world every one got a degree and had a job as a lawyer, doctor, scientist, etc., how would mankind survive? Don't you think people would still be needed to provide the essentials of food, clothing, transportation, etc. as many types of work in these fields do not require a degree? Sorry, but society as we know it cannot exist without many different levels of labor and education and it is also a fact that a college education does not mean you are guaranteed a high paying job, or, for that matter, any job at all.

Very true. Some people still live in one industry towns. When that industry lays off people, there are no other places to go for work in town. It would be easy to tell such people to pack up and move where the jobs are but this is not always doable or practical. For one thing, in a town with no jobs, there would be few, if any, to purchase one's home. Thus abandonment of the home would be a necessity and not many people are willing to do that. People also need money to move - lots of it. People who have family commitments can also not pack up their entire extended families and leave the area. In many cases, younger members of the family still care for older members. It would be a highly impractical situation to just abandon the elderly family members and leave them to fend for themselves. Reality can indeed get in the way of achieving 'theoretical success'.

Boreas

06-07-2009, 09:44 AM

What a good discussion in response to the ridiculous statement that most people's hardships are due to their own decisions. David, I think 25 years as a social worker makes me believe I have seen everything. Sanslines, I sure hope that "you ain't seen nothing yet" is just a song!shocked (now I am singing BTO in my head does anyone know what I am talking about?) These discussions seem to be all or nothing discussions too many times. If you believe in a social service network of some sort, you get accused of wanting government to rule lives. If you worship at the altar of the free market, you get accused of being heartless or something. Believe it or not, there is middle ground.

I do believe in a social service network, including universal healthcare. Please remember, I am Canadian and most Canadians value universal healthcare because we have seen its benefits. Most of us also recognize that it can be improved.......as most systems can be. That being said, I do believe that we make choices that affect our lives. We can choose to get an education or work our tails off in order to succeed. These are generally pretty good choices. We can choose to invest our money and make wise spending choices. I am blessed to have been able to get a graduate degree. I worked hard at it, and scrounged up the money. I also accepted government loans and grants in the process. They helped me achieve my goals, and I paid off my debts long ago. I was able to accomplish this as much by an accident of birth as by hard work. I had the opportunity to go to university. I had and found the means to pay for it. I also had the "permission" (for lack of a better word) from society and where ever to do this.

I do some work in a Cree/Dene'zaa community in this area. This is a First Nations' community with all the problems you might expect, substance abuse, domestic violence, poverty, isolation, etc. This is a community where people experience prejudice from the outside world, less so now. Canadian First nations' people were not allowed to vote until the 60's. They were not allowed to own property until sometime in my lifetime. They have many more obstacles than I had growing up in my white bread suburbia. Now, someone from that community could succeed in the mainstream definition of the word. Someone with a Cree last name could become Crown Attorney or a doctor or whatever. They will be a lot further from the finish line than the first born son of the local well-loved doctor.....who has an anglo last name.

There are structural forces at work that make it more difficult for some of us to acheive the success that others can. In fact there are some forces that work to keep certain groups down. If you were a Cree youth in the 70's who wanted to become a lawyer, you were going to have to swim through some sharks, and find ways to swim in spite of having hands on your head trying to hold you down. If you were the first born son of the beloved doctor, you will be able to paddle more easily to your goal. Student grants and loans, tutors, wheelchair ramps, even social assistance (welfare) all have their place to keep a community strong.

I feel like I am babbling now........bottom line, we do need to help our neighbours succeed. I received help to succeed, and I can help others. I am sure every one of you reading this thread has received help at some point in your lives. Some of it may have even been formal help from a professional helper of some sort. As I said before, how we look after the weakest among us determines the health of our community.

ki4kxq

06-08-2009, 08:19 AM

This is another theory of some people that does not reflect reality. A degree in a field where there are ten applicants for every job simply means that nine of those ten applicants will not get a job in that field and the one that does get selected will face low pay and few benefits simply because of the "supply and demand" factor. Doesn't it seem logical that the employer would take the applicant who would work for the lowest wage if he was to chose one from a field of ten? So then what are the other nine going to do if they cannot find a job in the field of their degree? Obviously, take what they can get for a job and it just might be Wal-Mart. On the flip side of the argument, if in a fantasy world every one got a degree and had a job as a lawyer, doctor, scientist, etc., how would mankind survive? Don't you think people would still be needed to provide the essentials of food, clothing, transportation, etc. as many types of work in these fields do not require a degree? Sorry, but society as we know it cannot exist without many different levels of labor and education and it is also a fact that a college education does not mean you are guaranteed a high paying job, or, for that matter, any job at all.

I said "education" not degree. An education can include lots of things, not just a college degree.

2nd, as an employer, I know that the cheapest worker is not always what is good for the company. Even trucking companies that for years have tried to bring in new drivers so that they could pay them less, are now hiring only experienced drivers at a much higher rate. Why? In this era of high competition and little freight, customer service and dependability is more valued than cheap labor.

ki4kxq

06-08-2009, 08:37 AM

Boreas, I still think you misunderstand where conservatives stand as far as help. I believe that you should, as an individual support your community. You should mentor young people, you should give time and money to local charities and food banks. If you have the means to do so, send a few people to college. Where conservatives part ways with liberals, is that we don't believe that the government's role is to step in and take care of all these needs.

People of all walks of life have found ways to go to college even with enormous road blocks. They are much better off having done it themselves, then having the government guarantee them that "right". People generally don't value things they didn't work for, like they do those that have their "blood sweat and tears" involved in making it happen.

For any problem in life, you can always find a million reasons why you can't do something about it. No, it's not easy. No there will be issues to handle, inconveniences to overcome, and some down right scary times. That doesn't mean it's not impossible to do. Many people however handle problems with the "Spirit of Eyore". You remember him from Winnie the Pooh, right? He is the sky is falling fellow, the little guy can't win, etc, etc. It didn't used to be like that in this country. People were willing to endure hardships to make a better life for themselves. They valued sacrifice. People in the 40's, 50's, and 60's sometimes worked 2 and 3 jobs, so that Mom could stay home with the kids, or so they could send jr to college.

Do we need a social net for some who need a temporary hand up, or those that have mental or physical impairments? Of course. But most folks don't fall in that category. By the way, I read Shock Doctrine. Did you ever read You're Broke Because You Want To Be?

nimrod

06-08-2009, 12:34 PM

Boreas, I still think you misunderstand where conservatives stand as far as help. I believe that you should, as an individual support your community. You should mentor young people, you should give time and money to local charities and food banks. If you have the means to do so, send a few people to college. Where conservatives part ways with liberals, is that we don't believe that the government's role is to step in and take care of all these needs.

People of all walks of life have found ways to go to college even with enormous road blocks. They are much better off having done it themselves, then having the government guarantee them that "right". People generally don't value things they didn't work for, like they do those that have their "blood sweat and tears" involved in making it happen.

I do not know about other liberals, but I believe that there should be government programs that help. That does not mean that the goverenment does everything for them, there has to be an effort made by the person recieving the help. If there are grants for school, those that use them still have to do the work to get the education they are not just handed a diploma.

I see the conservatives here talking about government help as doing it all for the person and that is what liberals want, I for one do not think that is true for all that would call themselves liberals. There are some out there that think that way but I have not personally met any that do. Most I have talked to believe that it should be a hand up not a hand out.

Sorry for jumping into the conversation, but I just had to put in my two cents.

BinCo

06-08-2009, 02:18 PM

I'm not "older" yet but this happened to me. I was laid off and took the COBRA coverage and it was about $230 per month for single coverage. I paid it along with the other things on this list, except you left off condo fee and groceries.

I never did collect unemployment... not a single check. I took my severance pay and started a business. The business ....

That sounds like a great shot. As a small business owner I always say that to try and fail is more of a success than never trying at all. You were able to catch yourself before you fell so far that you had to file bankruptcy, many keep trying before they have to file.

My experience is that I was an Engineering Manager at a small company for 10 years, wife was back in college and I got laid off with the rest of the engineering team several months before the company went belly up. NO severence for any of us, not one nickel. After 10, yup TEN, years. Nothing. Our Cobra, which has 1 option that you can take, and have to take within 6 months or lose it, was going to be $683 a month. I was making $58K at the time with a live-in 20 something step-son and a wife in school, mortgage, 1 car payment. I got a new job within two months and it lasted 5 months. 2+5=7, 1 month too long for the COBRA that we could not afford anyway. The company I worked for for 5 months had every reason to delay insurance after 3 months as promised until we parted ways. So we went without insurance for several years. Lucky for us nothing happened, but it took me over a year to get back on my feet and get a new business going. Now we were in our early-thirties. All our savings had been dwindled away and we started over again.

Now 41, I have realized that our health care system is in need of a lot of changes. If you do not agree with me I could care less, and let me tell you why. I have good insurance now and wanted to get a little better deductible costs for a little more money every month. The change would bring it from $12K out of pocket, for me and the wife, to $5K annually. Copay from $30 to $0 and better script coverage. Last year during my colonoscopy the doc says I was clean and healthy, except that ONE small hemorrhoid she found. Insurance company says NO WAY to change in benefits and I could expect my premiums to go up because of that one hemmerhoid.

So here I am a 41 yr old married guy who pays only $300 a month for coverage and I can't get on a better plan because I have a hemerrhoid.:mad:

You can sit there and say that people make dumb choices all you want, but when I want to improve my plan and am denied because of something so absolutely foolish, you can't help but say that there is a problem with the system. When someone gets laid off and they are presented with a bill of $683 for crappy coverage COBRA for him and his wife in their thirties there is a problem. When it took legislation to force companies to offer COBRA at all there is a problem. When company after company hires people to work just under the amount of hours required in states that mandate healthcare there is a problem. When companies ask if you have even been denied coverage and can use that to keep you from getting coverage there is something wrong.

Incedentally, I am actually happy with the coverage I got and the company, I am just pissed that they won't let me get a better plan and have offered nothing in the way of getting rid of that one little pain in my butt.:(

Illinois59

06-08-2009, 03:47 PM

I said "education" not degree. An education can include lots of things, not just a college degree.

2nd, as an employer, I know that the cheapest worker is not always what is good for the company. Even trucking companies that for years have tried to bring in new drivers so that they could pay them less, are now hiring only experienced drivers at a much higher rate. Why? In this era of high competition and little freight, customer service and dependability is more valued than cheap labor.

No argument that a degree and education aren't the same thing however the lack of the piece of paper makes a big difference in the real world. In a sense a commercial driver's license is a "degree" but would you hire a truck driver to drive a class of vehicle his driver's license did not cover? He may have the ability to drive any class of highway vehicle but without the proper class of license, there could be some serious implications.

With 40 plus years working in a manufacturing environment, I know a lot about employers hiring workers based on the lowest possible pay scale and the employer paying dearly in the not so visible costs of low productivity of trainees and the loss of productivity of those doing the training, let alone the repeated hire - train - quit cycle of hiring cheap labor.

Education is how it is supposed to be, knowledge is how it really is.

Naturist Mark

06-08-2009, 03:53 PM

If we had a universal health care system like every other industrialized nation in the world you would see an explosion of entrepreneurship - the threat of the lack of health insurance, and onerous extra expense to small companies to provide it for employees, is the the number one reason people won't risk starting new businesses.

And the sad thing is that the USA already pays more tax dollars per person on healthcare than any other country in the world - even those that pay 100 percent of the cost of healthcare with single payer systems. That is more than stupid, it is shameful.

We just had a bowling for dollars charity event to raise money for the medical expenses of a child and his family that far exceed their insurance by several hundred thousand dollars. These are people WITH insurance, in a state that provides additional health coverage for children. It makes people feel good to help a young family in such a tragedy, but not enough people are aware enough of how completely shameful it is that we as a society have allowed this to happen in a supposedly civilized nation.

America is in very many ways a third world nation, with priorities that are completely divorced from our so-called "Judeo-Christian" values. Providing medical care to every citizen as a birthright is the only sane and civilized policy. One that every other industrialized nation in the world is able to accomplish. To our shame we choose not to.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/promos/healthcare1.jpg

Sanslines

06-08-2009, 04:30 PM

It's past time to refresh some memories about the potential benefits of government involvement in people's lives. Proper government assistance can make revolutionary changes in people's lives.

Here are a few exerpts from the book: The G.I. Bill of Rights - A New Deal For Veterans

After WW II, by all accounts the government investment in human capital made through the G.I Bill yielded enormous benefits to the nation. Countless hundreds of thousands of Americans who would not have otherwise returned to universities after the war completed undergrad and grad degrees. The G.I. Bill clearly sustained postwar prosperity, fueled a revolution in rising expectations, accelerated the shift to the post industrial age, and made the dream of being middle class possible.

GI Bill students were remarkably successful learners. Veterans quickly earned a reputation as mature, serious students. Instead of 'taking a ride on Uncle Sam's generosity' they attended virtually every class, intently took notes, and asked questions. "They're grinds, each and every one of them" noted a civilian student at Lehigh University. "It's books, books, books with them and they study so hard that we have to slave just to keep up with them." The GI Bill made equal opportunity a reality for many and challenged assumptions about who could benefit from a college education.

Given the serious shortage of housing on university campuses across the nation, the GI's lived in a myriad of temporary housing and resorted to communal showers and bathroom facilities. Families routinely shared washrooms, clotheslines, and garbage disposal facilities. Government again rose to the challege by subsidising the cost of university housing.

In summary, the government backed GI Bill made education possible for countless individuals who contributed in countless ways to the nation and made the prosperity of the 1950's and years beyond possible.

ki4kxq

06-08-2009, 08:46 PM

David77

06-09-2009, 12:27 AM

I am one of the beneficiaries of the GI Bill and appreciate it very much. At age 20, in 1966 when I was mustered out of the navy, I had no savings and my parents were poor and I had no skills "to sell".
When I was in the navy, I read in the newspaper where they had passed a GI BillI and I was estatic at the prospects of being able to go to college on the GI Bill.

I told my best friend in the navy about the good news, but he was not estatic, as he stated that he did not do well in high school, so he thought that he was not college material. I persuaded him to go to college, so we went to college together for all our four year undergraduate work, (and were domitory roommates at times) and he did exceptionally well at his studies.

Sanslines

06-09-2009, 03:37 AM

While I appreaciate your zeal in trying to make your point, bringing in the G I Bill isn't quite the same as making a college education a right for everyone. Veterans served their country. Some have served their country in war zones. Yes veterans deserve money for college, they earned it.

Veterans who are injured should also get the very best medical care available. Be it artificial limbs, therapy, whatever they need. Again, they have more than earned it. It is not a freebie.

At the time, the opponents of the GI Bill refered to it as a 'free ride for veterans'. History has proven them wrong. It is true that veterans served their country and the experiences of WW II matured those young men and women beyond their years. They came home from war with a new perspective and appreciation for life. No wonder they were so serious about their studies.

The problem that we face today with education is the same that we face with medical care. Costs have risen exponentially and well beyond the cost of inflation. Let's look at one particualr aspect of the enormous cost of obtaining one kind of degree - a DDS or DMD. The costs for obtaining a dentistry degree are so high and many students are so indebted by the time that they graduate that they really have no choince but to head to larger cities where they can establish themselves and pass on the enormous costs of dental procedures. As a result, rural dentistry health suffers. The moral of the story is that we all will pay in one way, shape, or form. The same situation occurs with medical school graduates.

The GI Bill clearly demonstrated what can occur when a large segment of our population was given the chance to attend college AND was seroius about attending college. Before the war, college was generally thought of as a place for the upper classes who could afford the high costs. What the GI Bill accomplished was to prepare a large segment of society to contribute and build our economy to the point where it was the envy of the world in the 1950's.

nimrod

06-09-2009, 12:04 PM

While I appreaciate your zeal in trying to make your point, bringing in the G I Bill isn't quite the same as making a college education a right for everyone.

Who is asking to make a college education a right for everyone? I think what is being asked for is making a college education possible for everyone not a right. When it is possible for everyone it does not mean that everyone will go or will be forced to go, or that everyone will just be handed a degree, it just means that the possibility for them to go is there, it does not even mean that they will graduate.

ki4kxq

06-09-2009, 02:56 PM

Who is asking to make a college education a right for everyone? I think what is being asked for is making a college education possible for everyone not a right. When it is possible for everyone it does not mean that everyone will go or will be forced to go, or that everyone will just be handed a degree, it just means that the possibility for them to go is there, it does not even mean that they will graduate.

Right now it is possible for everyone to go to college. Not everyone can go to an Ivy League school, however, state colleges are pretty affordable. If you can't afford that, go to junior college first, then transfer.

The Obama administration has said that it's goal is to fund peoples college education, that is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with working your way through college. People have been doing that for decades.

Sanslines

06-09-2009, 03:10 PM

Right now it is possible for everyone to go to college. Not everyone can go to an Ivy League school, however, state colleges are pretty affordable. If you can't afford that, go to junior college first, then transfer.

The Obama administration has said that it's goal is to fund peoples college education, that is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with working your way through college. People have been doing that for decades.

Yes people HAVE (past tense) been doing that for decades. However, the present is not the past. Have you been to a college campus bookstore and prices textbooks? One art textbook that I recently looked at was priced at $286.00. Consider how long it would take a student working 20 hours per week (maximum allowed) work study for minimum wage. Yes students have certainly become creative in searching for used books on line but it is not always possible to purchase textbooks for some professors will not release their required textbook list until the first day of class. This done on purpose to help 'force' students into purchasing their textbooks from the campus bookstore.

ki4kxq

06-09-2009, 03:27 PM

Yes people HAVE (past tense) been doing that for decades. However, the present is not the past. Have you been to a college campus bookstore and prices textbooks? One art textbook that I recently looked at was priced at $286.00. Consider how long it would take a student working 20 hours per week (maximum allowed) work study for minimum wage. Yes students have certainly become creative in searching for used books on line but it is not always possible to purchase textbooks for some professors will not release their required textbook list until the first day of class. This done on purpose to help 'force' students into purchasing their textbooks from the campus bookstore.

Well then please tell me where it stops. What else should the government supply the people of this country. Oh wait a minute, the government doesn't produce anything, that would be us the tax payers that would have to provide all this stuff.

When I went to college in the early 80's, we all knew what we had to do to go. Some parents could afford to pay the whole thing. Tuition, books, dorm, food, car, etc. Those who couldn't, those folks worked and saved their money from working summers and had a little help from their parents. My cousin worked 40 hours at FedEx throwing boxes at night and went to school during the day. Some kids went into the military. Some worked hard for scholarships if they knew funding would be an issue. Some signed on to work in underserved area in exhange for tuition and other fees if they were going into a field such as teaching, medical or dental. Some companies reimburse tuition for either employees or the children of employees. Some kids I know worked 2 or 3 jobs for a year or two, stashing money like crazy, then went to school. There are college grants available. My step daughter is almost through her nursing degree, she worked part time while she went. She and her husband tightened the budget and cash flowed her way through a little at a time.

My point is, there are all kinds of options if you want it badly enough. To say the only way those without the resources to just write a check, is for the taxpayer to foot the bill is dishonest. What has happened to this country?

In the interest of fair disclosure, my college education was paid in part by myself, my parents, and the military. I banked every bit of money I would make in the summer so that I could live on campus instead of going to the local campus of Indiana University.

LamontCranston

06-09-2009, 03:55 PM

Well then please tell me where it stops. What else should the government supply the people of this country. Oh wait a minute, the government doesn't produce anything, that would be us the tax payers that would have to provide all this stuff.

When I went to college in the early 80's, we all knew what we had to do to go. Some parents could afford to pay the whole thing. Tuition, books, dorm, food, car, etc. Those who couldn't, those folks worked and saved their money from working summers and had a little help from their parents. My cousin worked 40 hours at FedEx throwing boxes at night and went to school during the day. Some kids went into the military. Some worked hard for scholarships if they knew funding would be an issue. Some signed on to work in underserved area in exhange for tuition and other fees if they were going into a field such as teaching, medical or dental. Some companies reimburse tuition for either employees or the children of employees. Some kids I know worked 2 or 3 jobs for a year or two, stashing money like crazy, then went to school. There are college grants available. My step daughter is almost through her nursing degree, she worked part time while she went. She and her husband tightened the budget and cash flowed her way through a little at a time.

My point is, there are all kinds of options if you want it badly enough. To say the only way those without the resources to just write a check, is for the taxpayer to foot the bill is dishonest. What has happened to this country?

In the interest of fair disclosure, my college education was paid in part by myself, my parents, and the military. I banked every bit of money I would make in the summer so that I could live on campus instead of going to the local campus of Indiana University. Right.. what he said. Same timing, same hard work, same kind of balance. It took me 10 years to pay off the student loans: 120 payments in a row, none late, none missed. I'll add that many people I started school with didn't finish (not for them, too much work, not enough money, many other reasons).

Not sure where this is coming from but there's no way anyone is somehow "owed" a higher education. K - 12, then you make your own breaks.

ki4kxq

06-09-2009, 04:23 PM

Right.. what he said. Same timing, same hard work, same kind of balance. It took me 10 years to pay off the student loans: 120 payments in a row, none late, none missed. I'll add that many people I started school with didn't finish (not for them, too much work, not enough money, many other reasons).

Not sure where this is coming from but there's no way anyone is somehow "owed" a higher education. K - 12, then you make your own breaks.

You and I agree a lot. However, it's what SHE said. LOL

Sanslines

06-09-2009, 04:49 PM

When I went to college in the early 80's, we all knew what we had to do to go.

(As a brief aside, the ancient eight (Ivy League Schools ie Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Pennsylvania, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown) are well endowed universities and have financial resources to help the needy. However, the economic crisis has affected the endownments and created a great deal of financial stress. Nevertheless, I know of one Ivy that offers financial aid based upon a student and his or her family's resources. With low income families, tuition, room, and board will be covered by the university. The difference at an Ivy is that academics are of premier importance and a student must produce. Poor students are given a chance but they must produce on the academic level.)

Back to topic, the early '80's was a generation ago when the price of a textbook was $20 plus. (In the 1950's the price of a textbook was $5 plus). Today, many textbooks are $80 plus. The point of all of this is that the cost of education has increased exponentially since you went to school. You might consider that you are out of touch with what it really costs to attend a university today. The costs really are staggering and are such that a whole group of people are cut out of meaningful education.

Consider this:• The number of students who graduate with over $25,000 in loan debt has tripled since the early 1990s.

To further bring you up to date on the current debt situation:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/general/2006-02-22-student-loans-usat_x.htm

What worked for you and previous generations no longer applies. You are speaking from your own personal experience with college over 20 years ago. A great deal has changed since then. Costs have increased enormously. Costs are a barrier to achieving a higher education and the education situation seems to be going backwards to the point pre-1940's when a college education was only availible for the elite. This is the reality.

What you don't realize is that education is a real investment in the future of this nation. The alternative is to have a whole group of low wage earners who will be in need of food stamps, and other assorted government programs. I am not even mentioning the cost associated with those who wind up in prison at enormous taxpayer expense.

Boreas

06-09-2009, 05:50 PM

What you don't realize is that education is a real investment in the future of this nation. The alternative is to have a whole group of low wage earners who will be in need of food stamps, and other assorted government programs. I am not even mentioning the cost associated with those who wind up in prison at enormous taxpayer expense.

That is an important consideration. If you invest in some students now, even all students who knows, some countries do that, you will have lower costs elsewhere later. Also, you have more productive citizens. Costs and benefits are not always measured in dollars and cents. Some countries in Europe recognize the benefit of providing post secondary education to students and manage to arrange their budgets to allow for that. It is a matter of priority. It is sad that some countries, including Canada to some degree, value weaponry more than its citizens.

What worked for you and previous generations no longer applies. You are speaking from your own personal experience with college over 20 years ago. A great deal has changed since then. Costs have increased enormously. Costs are a barrier to achieving a higher education and the education situation seems to be going backwards to the point pre-1940's when a college education was only availible for the elite. This is the reality.

Part of the reason for the increase in costs in Canada is that there is less public funding of universities. Now universities need to recoup more of their costs in tuitions and fees. A balance of funding the university or student, and tuition fees allows some breaks, and also allows students to work for their education.

I was in a professional degree program in the 80's. I would not have been able to meet the academic requirements had I been forced to work 40 hours per week on top of the studying. In fact, I might have cost the system more money with a mental breakdown! :eek: I did my graduate degree part-time while I worked full-time. It was a tough slog, but I managed. Even though I did not get grants or loans during that time, I did benefit from government help because at that time, governments did fund the universities to some degree. I did still end up with a debt.

Again I say, it is not black and white and ki4kxq would have us believe. There are shades of grey. While I benefitted from some government support in university, I also had to work my tail off. I do not believe I am unique with that.

ki4kxq

06-09-2009, 05:58 PM

Croydon

06-10-2009, 04:22 AM

You are missing the`point. Every generation has had to work to aford college because it was out of reach for some. I can certainly remember paying more than $20 for books in the 80's. Some were triple digits back then.

People that really want to go to college even today, can go. There are also other options that those who feel like they can't afford a full four year degree, like tech schools or associate degrees. But let me get this straight, to keep people out of prison we need to give them a government supplied college degree. You're kidding right? Again, what ever happened to PERSONAL responsibility?

No, YOU are missing the point. The cost of college education has risen exponentially. It has increased at a rate that is faster than the increase in personal income. That being said, at that rate, a college education will become out of reach for those of low and middle income.

The cost of college has changed considerably since your early days. Let me run some numbers by you. I attended Syracuse University and graduated in 2004

Tuition: $36,000/yr and that is NOT including university fees such as health, activities, technology.
Books: Each SEMESTER I spent on average $700-800 on books for 6 courses.
Personal: entertainment, clothing, transportation.
With all these costs combine, an education has a price tag well over $50K/yr.

How do you propose I "sacrifice" to pay it all?

Today, I have a student loan debt of about $60,000. Average college student today are graduating with loan debts well over $40,000. That number increases again when many opt to continue their education and obtain masters and MBAs. There's only so much my parents can do when they have their own financial obligations. In addition, my younger brother was getting ready to attend college himself.

Yes, there are other options as you say, an associate degree or technical school. The question is, why does ANYONE have to sacrifice their goals, dreams, and career aspiration. If someone wishes to be an accountant but can't afford the full cost of a 4 year education, you suggest they give up and go to tech school and do something else? NO ONE should have to low ball their goals. In this day and age, an associate degree means NOTHING. Our global economy is changing and to compete, an associate degree just doesn't cut it. Many older people, especially your generation, who did not attend school are finding that out and are returning to the class rooms to get their bachelor's degree. When I attended Syracuse, I had a few night courses and many of the students were working professionals who never got their bachelor's degree and are finding they can't move forward in their lives and careers b/c they are missing that paper. I have spoken to a lot of them and they all agreed it was a mistake when they were a kid to just settle for an associate or no degree at all.

It amazes me how US just doesn't get it. Why is it we struggle to educate our own when Europeans do it so easily. Scandinavian countries seem to get it right by offering qualified students free college education. In addition, the country INVESTS in their brightest students. Denmark actually seek out students for in demand fields like medicine, engineering, and teaching. The country pays for students education as well as provide them with mentors throughout their university career. The same thing for Japan and China.

I only hope you don't have children b/c if you do and they wish to attend college, you will be up for a rude awakening. If they wish to attend college and you can not afford it, I only hope you don't say "honey we can't afford it so why not attend plumbing school instead."

Sanslines

06-10-2009, 06:01 AM

You are missing the`point. Every generation has had to work to aford college because it was out of reach for some. I can certainly remember paying more than $20 for books in the 80's. Some were triple digits back then.

People that really want to go to college even today, can go. There are also other options that those who feel like they can't afford a full four year degree, like tech schools or associate degrees. But let me get this straight, to keep people out of prison we need to give them a government supplied college degree. You're kidding right? Again, what ever happened to PERSONAL responsibility?

Another big change that has occurred from when you went to school many years ago versus today is this. When you went to school, the overwhelming majority of student were in their late teens and early tweenties. Fast forward to today and there are many more traditional older students. Given the unemployment situation today, even more middle aged people will have to go back to school to train for a new field (when jobs appear in those new fields). There is an enormous difference between being a carefree teenager or twenty something who has no real responsibilities and can apply themselves totally and completely to school versus a middle aged person who would not only have the expense of education but also numerous other expenses such as mortgage, rent, utilities, family expenses, as well as the responsibility to their homes and families. The pressures on middle aged people are enormous.

If you have any doubts about this, then try quitting your job, enroll in a multi year training program, and continue to pay for your living expenses while also paying for your education expenses. You will realize just how much money you will have to spend on necessities and how much pressure there will be on you to graduate as fast as possible and get back to work to earn money.

As for Obama, Obama knows first hand how government programs enabled him to experience higher education. Without such programs for all we know, Obama could have wound up on skid row or in some dead end minimum wage job. Ask yourself if this nation is better off with a highly educated Obama as President or a minimally educated Obama stuck in a dead end minimum wage job who was forced to apply for food stamps, etc.

Education is a pathway out of the 'ghetto'. No one who is serious about education should be denied the opportunity for lack of financial resources.

As for Obama's education programs, he is not going to just hand out 'free' money. There will most probably be an extension of existing loan and grant programs for qualified students.

ki4kxq

06-10-2009, 06:19 AM

MoonShadow

06-10-2009, 07:02 AM

J
Please don't ask me if I think we are better off with Obama as President. My answer is a resounding NO!!

.

Die hard party people! When will those who support one party and one party only wake up and realize there isn't one party better than the other.

Let me do a die hard party line here: You think your McCain would have done any better? If so, please explain.

President Obama hasn't been in office long enough for any of us to be forming much of an opinion. He walked into an enormous mess and six months isn't going to show much of anything due to the size of the mess he walked into. The jury is still out at this time.

I also do not see where anyone is getting a "free ride" with education. There is no such thing and won't be any such thing. However, as costs of getting an education continue to go up due to out-of-control administrators running our institutions of higher learning and adding to that enormous cost, we need programs for certain students to apply for to help them get that education. You cannot work today as you could 20-30 years ago and pay your way through school. The costs far exceed any income you can make. Students work today to bring in spending money so that they can put gas in the car, buy food, books, school supplies, and other miscellaneous items they might need. They obtain loans which they then pay back later when they do find employment. I cannot imagine anyone thinking anyone is getting a "free ride".

Most students today except the fortunate ones where mom and dad pay their way are being personally responsible for their own education and will pay for that education long after they have graduated. Where's the free ride?

Sanslines

06-10-2009, 07:44 AM

Just to make sure I wasn't out of touch, I checked the University of Texas website. Seems to me your numbers are very inflated Croydon. For in state students who live on campus including tuition, books, fees, housing, transportation etc was $19,000. If you live at home that same education is a little over $10,000 a year. Yes, it's expensive, but a far cry from your figures of $50k a year.

Instead of picking one school in order to demonstrate one's point, why not be fair and objective and post a ranking of average school costs. Is this not more representative of the nation as a whole?

Let's be fair and objective:

Tuition and Costs -- Data and Rankings

One feature that often gets overlooked by the organizations that rank schools is the amount it costs to go there. Parents, of course, are keenly interested. It makes sense to include this as one of the criteria used in ranking schools on an overall basis. After all, if two schools have identical Faculty Awards, SATs, etc., etc. and one costs $10,000 less to attend, then it is arguably a better institution -- at least from the perspective of the person purchasing the education. The institutions ranking best in this category are the United States military academies, which cost nothing. The rest are as follows (note that state schools are given the benefit of their in state tuition). The data is one or two years old, so please check current costs. The categories are:

Tuition One year of tuition at the school in question
Tuition (OofS) Tuition for out-of-state students (state schools only)
Total Cost Tuition plus room and board
Fin.Aid The average financial aid package available to students
Grad Debt The average debt load a graduate has after leaving school

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">School (Reset Sort (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php))
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=school&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=school&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Tuition
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=tuition&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=tuition&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Tuition (OofS)
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=tuitionoofs&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=tuitionoofs&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Total Cost
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=totalcost&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=totalcost&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Fin. Aid
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=finaid&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=finaid&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Grad Debt
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=graddebt&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=graddebt&dir=up#data)
</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 2px solid">Rank
http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_down.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=rank&dir=down#data)http://www.ordoludus.com/images/arrow_up.gif (http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php?sort=rank&dir=up#data)
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Princeton University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,200</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,369</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,050</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">76</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Stanford University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,994</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,361</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,453</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,172</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">87</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Yale University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,030</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,050</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,982</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,882</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">91</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Harvard University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,709</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,655</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,780</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,769</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">74</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of North Carolina</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,515</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,313</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,903</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,687</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,801</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">20</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">California Institute of Technology</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,595</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$39,903</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,416</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,621</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">79</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Rice University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,746</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,868</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,360</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,452</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">51</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Duke University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,409</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,239</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,842</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,391</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">89</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Columbia University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,246</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,584</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,749</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,080</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">86</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of California</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,558</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,242</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$38,316</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,361</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,227</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">71</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Dartmouth College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,612</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,588</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,934</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,305</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">110</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Williams College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,760</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$40,310</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,840</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,753</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">49</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Massachusetts Institute of Technology</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,600</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,550</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,800</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,748</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">114</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Michigan</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,213</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,601</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,975</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,234</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,312</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">77</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Pennsylvania</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,364</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,766</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,011</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,333</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">92</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Johns Hopkins University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,400</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$45,022</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,818</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">110</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Washington University in St. Louis</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,788</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,240</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,653</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">124</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Virginia</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,133</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,877</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,266</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,449</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,065</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">38</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of California (UCLA)</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,504</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,324</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,252</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,462</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,894</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">70</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Amherst College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,005</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,590</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,288</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,170</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">66</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Notre Dame</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,407</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,137</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,061</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,986</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">117</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Northwestern University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,559</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,825</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,761</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,136</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">107</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Brown University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$35,352</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,486</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,402</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,040</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">115</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Cornell University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,981</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,707</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,400</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,200</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">123</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Southern California</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,888</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,032</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,459</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,131</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">116</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Chicago</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,265</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,369</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,723</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,124</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">96</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Texas</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,972</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,310</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,670</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,085</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">20</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Emory University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,506</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,444</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,599</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,175</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">99</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Middlebury College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,340</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,340</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,732</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,012</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">80</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Florida</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$3,094</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,579</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,839</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,566</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,835</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">8</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Georgia Institute of Technology</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,648</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,990</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,792</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,222</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,001</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">37</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Carleton College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,272</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,864</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,469</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,842</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">97</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Wisconsin</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,280</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,280</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,780</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,740</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,528</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">39</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Vanderbilt University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,730</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,016</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,935</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,585</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">83</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Georgetown University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,024</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,763</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,482</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,906</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">121</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Maryland</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,821</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,145</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,220</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,132</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,076</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">40</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Bowdoin College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,990</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,660</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,250</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,300</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">82</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Pomona College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,865</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,156</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,300</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,600</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">93</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Penn State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,508</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,744</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,804</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,802</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,600</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">56</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Washington and Lee University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,850</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$39,792</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,106</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,105</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">69</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Macalaster College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,038</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$39,020</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,461</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,200</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">61</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Swarthmore College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,516</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$40,830</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,914</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,413</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">54</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Tufts University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,621</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,018</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,749</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,400</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">83</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Illinois</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,688</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,774</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,950</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,714</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,526</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">55</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Brandeis University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,501</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,551</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,816</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,437</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">102</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">New York University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,960</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,440</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,692</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,639</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">126</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Oberlin College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,426</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,146</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,508</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,800</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">113</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Case Western Reserve University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,738</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,018</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,931</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,597</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">78</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Ohio State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,082</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,305</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,075</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,726</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,821</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">59</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Carnegie Mellon University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,578</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,858</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,143</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">125</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Cooper Union</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$40,860</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,617</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">60</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Wake Forest University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,140</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$40,940</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,581</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,831</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">103</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Kansas</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,413</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,866</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,718</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,025</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,243</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">14</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Texas A&M University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,399</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,679</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,631</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,781</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,927</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">17</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Washington</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,620</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,917</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,081</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,400</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,210</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">36</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Minnesota</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,622</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,252</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,974</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,007</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">50</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Davidson College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,194</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$38,784</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,024</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,954</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">98</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Wesleyan University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$35,144</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,684</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,880</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,395</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">120</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Kenyon College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,050</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,950</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,982</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,190</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">88</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Georgia</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,628</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,848</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,224</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,320</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,422</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">19</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Iowa</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,612</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,998</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,071</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,386</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,750</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">25</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Iowa State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,634</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,724</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,921</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,738</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,324</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">31</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Wellesley College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,348</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,030</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,907</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,821</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">63</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">U.S. Naval Academy</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">1</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Haverford College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,760</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,600</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,990</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,330</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">75</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Grinnell College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,030</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,730</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,426</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,496</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">58</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Vassar College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,030</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,160</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,296</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,314</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">108</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Brigham Young University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$3,410</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,200</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,168</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,478</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">4</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">U.S. Air Force Academy</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">1</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Boston University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,792</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,272</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,687</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,186</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">118</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Oklahoma</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,408</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,301</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,662</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,745</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,494</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">11</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Arizona</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,487</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,671</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,131</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,185</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,012</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">18</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Boston College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,506</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,226</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,292</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,723</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">106</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Alabama</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,864</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,516</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,540</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,980</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,545</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">10</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Tulane University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,946</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,098</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,948</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,040</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">95</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Rutgers</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,108</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,706</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,284</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,745</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,863</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">35</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Purdue University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,458</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,824</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,984</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,256</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,978</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">46</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Bates College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,100</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,100</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,836</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,986</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">67</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Michigan State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,880</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,632</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,860</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,468</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,037</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">53</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Arizona State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,407</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,095</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,245</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,300</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,016</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">22</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Arkansas</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,495</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,222</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,587</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,260</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,204</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">13</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Louisiana State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,515</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,815</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,145</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,006</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,258</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">15</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Miami</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$31,288</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$40,622</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,709</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,140</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">90</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">College of New Jersey</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,707</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,970</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,428</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,010</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,673</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">33</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Florida State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$3,208</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,340</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,118</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,269</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,647</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">24</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Kentucky</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,812</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,798</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,027</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,861</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,510</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">9</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Bucknell University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,002</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,368</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,400</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">105</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Illinois Institute of Technology</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,982</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,502</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,558</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,264</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">45</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Trinity University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,582</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,462</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,343</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">42</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Smith College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,558</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,438</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,766</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,023</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">110</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Bryn Mawr College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$33,010</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$43,560</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,582</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,018</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">101</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Nebraska</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,540</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,450</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,311</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,245</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,909</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">12</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Colorado</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,372</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,826</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,806</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,973</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,255</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">64</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Missouri</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,745</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,522</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,767</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,676</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,907</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">30</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Villanova University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,618</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$38,980</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,503</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,549</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">104</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Abilene Christian University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,160</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,830</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,777</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,413</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">32</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Reed College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,590</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$41,106</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,122</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,879</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">81</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Indiana University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,112</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,508</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,748</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,840</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,251</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">57</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Mississippi</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,320</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,744</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,442</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,532</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,658</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">3</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Oklahoma State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,365</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,388</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,236</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,307</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,067</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">7</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Tennessee</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,290</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,060</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,270</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$6,954</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,713</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">27</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Wheaton College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,450</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,490</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,445</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,717</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">47</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of South Carolina</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,314</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,956</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,039</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,501</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,699</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">34</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Lincoln University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,028</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,704</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,602</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,118</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">22</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">North Dakota State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,264</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,545</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,675</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,487</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,675</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">16</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Mount Holyoke College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,256</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$44,296</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,176</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,039</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">122</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">St. Augustine's College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,428</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,272</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,387</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$10,416</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">6</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Oregon</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$5,613</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,445</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,941</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,016</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,802</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">43</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Florida Southern College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,165</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,965</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,993</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,072</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">29</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">College of the Atlantic</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,140</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$35,850</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,478</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,705</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">48</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Gonzaga University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,860</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,560</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,724</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,113</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">73</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Sarah Lawrence College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,088</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$48,240</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,032</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,607</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">119</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">North Central College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,933</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$28,926</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,447</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,527</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">28</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Methodist College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,080</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$26,250</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,822</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,989</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">44</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Adams State College</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$2,853</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,123</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,263</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$4,586</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$15,975</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">5</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">University of Cincinnati</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,883</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,635</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,120</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$7,787</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,974</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">65</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Hollins University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$24,325</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$32,975</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,722</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$19,305</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">72</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Temple University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,640</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,236</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,424</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,927</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,493</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">52</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Rhode Island School of Design</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$29,775</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$38,130</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,500</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">94</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Juilliard School</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,610</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$35,705</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,298</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,447</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">85</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Tuskegee University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$12,985</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,095</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,824</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">41</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">Culinary Institute of America</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$20,775</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$27,595</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$11,229</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,000</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">61</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">St. John's College (Md)</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$34,506</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$42,776</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$22,262</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,125</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">108</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">San Diego State University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$3,122</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$13,292</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$23,141</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$8,700</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$14,140</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">26</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">New School University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$25,470</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$36,280</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$9,046</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$18,407</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">100</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">DePaul University</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$21,100</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$0</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$30,756</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$16,309</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">$17,359</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ddd 1px solid">68</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.ordoludus.com/costs.php

Since this data is a few years old, add at least 10 to 20 percent to the numbers shown.

richo

06-10-2009, 08:33 AM

I grew up in east Los Angeles - Whittier, Pico Rivera, El Monte, etc. I was, once my sister went to junior high, the only blonde student in my school, just to give you an idea of the general racial profile of the area (mostly hispanic and eastern European ethnicities - my grandmother was the child of slavic immigrants).

Even back then, in the 80's, everyone at the school knew the only real way out of that part of town was through education. Being smart meant you were "cool", because you could advance and go other places. We had advanced learning courses, G.A.T.E, extra tutoring, specialized study sessions, the whole works - in elementry school - and most of it provided by teachers without any significant compensation.

Even with that, most of the kids I went to school with never made it out of that lifestyle; about 30% never even graduated high school. It's not that they weren't competent, it's that the catch-22 of "the family doesn't make enough money so you need to get a job quickly and forego your education" is a very real thing.

I, personally, don't believe that your ability to get an advanced education should depend on your financial situation. I've always believed it should be a tiered structure based solely on merit, with various options for various aptitudes, to encourage people to achieve as high a level of excellence as possible - and all of it, or a significant portion of it, should be paid for by the government with no questions asked.

An educated population is the key to every form of civilization: without knowledge, information, and the ability to learn, individuals cannot be productive or progressive. Especially in a society with democratic principles - where the individual is expected to make intelligent, informed, rational decisions to help run the government - education should be the most important thing: for, if the population isn't educated, how can such a society make good collective decisions?

This isn't about affirmative action; this isn't about socialism. This is about an investment in the principles that help improve society for everyone, not just the few involved.

Sanslines

06-10-2009, 08:40 AM

But let me get this straight, to keep people out of prison we need to give them a government supplied college degree. You're kidding right? Again, what ever happened to PERSONAL responsibility?

If you have ever spent any time in an inner city ghetto and opened your eyes in an attempt to recognize the myriad of problems that exist, you would understand the endless cycle of anger, hopelessness, and dispair. Many young people are trapped in a system that they can not find a way out of. They are judged by their peers and peer pressure keeps them in the 'hood. There are presently two options for most young people in the ghetto - death or prison.

I know of several brave individuals who are risking their lives to make a difference in Philadelphia. One lady was a victim of domestic violence herself. She decided to run as far and as fast as she could from an abusive relationship. The last straw was when her physically abusive boyfriend exploded in rage and hit her with a wooden chair so hard that the chair exploded into splinters. She knew that if she did not leave, she would be dead in short order. What she did that was so admirable was to start a woman's and children's shelter for innner city abused women and children. Abused women and children need a safe and clean place to run to in order to escape the endless cycle of abuse. They need time and counseling in order to rebuild their shattered lives. Such worthy endeavors need government support and help. The alternative is to allow the endless cycle of abuse and violence to continue.

I also know of another brave man who is a reformed drug addict. With help from a government funded men's shelter, he was able to turn his life around with counseling and now he goes into the housing projects and risks his life to keep the at risk children alive. He tries to show them another direction in life. He tries to give them hope and a real chance in life.

Meaningful work and education are two pathways out of the endless cycle of hopelessness, dispair, violence, anger, hatred, drugs, prison, or death.

You may have been certainly able to provide for your education but you had advantages that some in our society only dream about. Just because you accomplished something on your own does not mean that others can do the same. Just spend some time in the inner city and you will know exactly what I am talking about.

If you want to reign in wasteful spending, then focus upon those administrators who spend their days far removed from the problems that they are trying to solve. Do not take it from those who risk their lives to make a real difference in the inner cities.

Sanslines

06-10-2009, 08:56 AM

Please don't ask me if I think we are better off with Obama as President. My answer is a resounding NO!!

This is a fair analysis of the mess that Obama inherited from Bush. It is fairly clear that Obama has some rather impossible problems to resolve.

For U.S., a sea of red ink, years in the making

Business cycle, Bush policies linked to most of federal government's deficits

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31199889

Sanslines

06-10-2009, 12:37 PM

A brief aside to the ongoing health care debate:

...................But Republicans are betting that the specter of "big government" can still unsettle voters. When Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/m000355/) (Ky.) spoke on the chamber floor Thursday morning, his remarks sounded as if they had been pulled from an early-1990s focus group.

"Americans want reform that addresses the high cost of care and gives everyone access to quality care," McConnell said. ". . . But creating a government bureaucracy that denies, delays and rations health care is not the reform they want. They don't want the people who brought us the Department of Motor Vehicles making life-and-death decisions for them."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31198147

But......but.......but...........Americans presently have a government bureaucracy that delivers health care. It is called Medicare and Medicaid. Do the Repubs not realize that when they make such statements as above, they make themselves look out of touch, unless they want to abolish Medicare and Medicaid and allow the insurance companies to pick and chose who they will and will not insure from those groups.

Croydon

06-10-2009, 03:28 PM

LamontCranston

06-11-2009, 07:03 AM

No, YOU are missing the point. The cost of college education has risen exponentially. It has increased at a rate that is faster than the increase in personal income.

Tuition: $36,000/yr and that is NOT including university fees such as health, activities, technology.
Books: Each SEMESTER I spent on average $700-800 on books for 6 courses.
Personal: entertainment, clothing, transportation.
With all these costs combine, an education has a price tag well over $50K/yr.

How do you propose I "sacrifice" to pay it all? College costs have always increased faster than personal income. Around 1990 that was true and I thought they'd level out before my kids were old enough to attend. They didn't. They still attend.

Sacrifice?
Entertainment is on your list. What's that? Does transportation include a car and all it's costs or are you using your feet or bike or bus to get around? Syracuse is a big-time school. Get an Associates degree somewhere else, transfer in and pay two years, not four. Spread your education over 6 years while working instead of 4 while borrowing.

Clothing, transportation, food and lodging you'd be paying whether or not you were going to school or working. Those things never go away, so take them out of the figuring.

We're living through it right now and there are choices and sacrifices being made on all sides. It can be done. It is being done.

The idea is that with a degree in higher education, you become eligible for a bigger salary, maybe much bigger.

And no, you won't be buying a house your first year out of school. Too many loans to pay. Too bad.. that's the real world. Get used to it, it's cold and unforgiving.

MoonShadow

06-11-2009, 07:57 AM

MikeS, may I ask what kind of job a student can get that will pay enough in order for him or her to pay for their college tuition along with fees and supplies each year? I would like to know where these jobs are.

You have to figure in food, clothing, and lodging. I mean if a person is paying for these they have to be included, not ignored or taken out of the budgetary process. Are your children living in dorms or sharing apartments with other students? These have to go into the budget. A lot of students must live on campus or in surrounding areas as living at home with mommy and daddy is not an option.

You said your children are paying as they go. What kind of jobs do they have that can bring in the income to pay for several thousands of tuition costs a year? Are they in state schools, private schools?

Take six years to get an undergraduate degree?!?!? Really? The only people I know who take this long are those marginal students who party too hardy in college and had to keep prolonging their studies. Most students take five years now anyway. And if students must pay their own way, as you say, without loans, could take 15 years to get through. I mean they would have to have jobs that paid pretty darn good wages and then go to night school. You want to sacrifice 15 years of your life for a degree in the hopes you will make more money, have more opportunities? And what high school graduate is going to be able to get a high paying job after high school.

I am just thinking scenarios here. The best way to get a college education today is to get loan money, work to have your spending money, and get the degree in as short amount of time as possible and then get out and find employment in order to pay your loans back and while paying them back, working to increase your chance of opportunities.

LamontCranston

06-11-2009, 08:38 AM

A lot of students must live on campus or in surrounding areas as living at home with mommy and daddy is not an option.

You said your children are paying as they go. What kind of jobs do they have that can bring in the income to pay for several thousands of tuition costs a year? Are they in state schools, private schools? I meant *we* are paying as we go. Team effort. That's what a family is right? A team effort supporting and sacrificing? I pay, my ex-wife pays, they each earn money, one lives with her mother and step-father, the other lives on campus. We get grants, apply for scholarships, sign up for student loans, draw from savings. It's a mixed bag cobbled together based on informed choices and personal responsibility.

How did I learn that? It's how me and one of my brothers attended college. My parents were a good example of running another family unit supporting and sacrificing. Work, save, make informed choices, borrow and pay back. A third brother tried it, didn't like it and years later went to night school (while keeping his day job) on his employer's job-training nickel. Everyone is on a different journey.

I understand that there are millions of hard-luck stories out there, but I really have no empathy for folks who sit and expect and demand and insist they are "owed" just because they happen to breath air.

K - 12. After that you make your own breaks.

MoonShadow

06-11-2009, 10:08 AM

Sanslines

06-11-2009, 10:20 AM

Aha, MikeS, I understand now. I was under the impression that you meant to obtain a college education without the use of grants and student loans. But you did do that so now that makes sense. Yes, I agree, college is a team effort if possible. For many, they did it on their own. My whole family did it on their own as there were no educational funds set us for any of us as there wasn't any money to go to that.

Thank goodness for loans. Yes, you have to pay back but that is how it works and some of the loans today are paid for if you stay and work for the state or entity who gave you the loan -- usually four years commitment which is no time at all for the money loaned.

Actually, I don't know or hear of anyone who is sitting around expecting a free college education. Those who are serious about one are out doing something about it.

Using government backed loans and grants is NOT making it completely and totally on one's own (dime). It is utilizing the government for low interest, government guaranteed loan assistance in order to make a college education possible. Certainly government grants can be considered 'free' money for that money does not have to be paid back. Any college financial aid office will tell you this.

What exactly is meant by a 'free' education???