Court decision about Jewish Schools in UK

[David77]

In Major School Case, British Courts Rule On Who Is a Jew

State Intervenes for the First Time in Nearly Four Centuries

http://www.forward.com/workspace/assets/images/articles/princecharles-070909.jpg GETTY IMAGES
Challenge to Tradition: Prince Charles visits Jewish school students in London.




By John Jeffay



Published July 08, 2009, issue of July 17, 2009 (http://www.forward.com/issues/2009-07-17/).

Manchester, England — Jewish schools are guilty of racial discrimination if they reject children on the grounds of their parentage, a British court has ruled.

http://www.forward.com/articles/109098/

[MoonShadow]

David, this is a very interesting article. I am appalled actually that jewish schools discriminate if someone converts. If one practices the religion, they should have full admission.

It is 2009 and we still practice discrimination base on religion, race, and sex. It is a disgrace in the modern world for there to be any discrimination. But, as we know, humans evolve slowly. We still have enormous racial problems on this globe and to see it carried out in a religious environment is deplorable. What are these religions really teaching? Why are so many religions still living in a world where they continue to practice discrimination. It is completely acceptable?

[walter05]

First of all, this is outrageous. I remember teaching at a Catholic girls' High School. There were ceremonies and functions that I was not permitted to attend because I was not Catholic. I understood that and respected the Catholic Church's rights to define their religion how they want.

The article had the following: Rabbi Tony Bayfield, head of the Movement for Reform Judaism, strongly disagrees with the JFS admissions policy but remains opposed the court’s intervention. He said: "JFS denies Jewish status to converts from Reform, Liberal and Masorti, and we abhor that… But we are also extremely worried about the state interfering in our right as a Jewish community to define for ourselves who is a Jew." He raises a fundamental point which is who gets to decide who is Jewish and who is not. A court that is subservient to the head of the Anglican church or Jews. Will a court get to tell people who is Moslem, Catholic, etc.? This is not a question for the court and the court should stay out.

I am glad the U.S. Constitution has a first amendment. Religious groups should be able to follow their rules for establishing who is a member and who is not. I would not want a Catholic Church told who they must give communion to. The government should stay out of religious matters. For the Jewish community, this decision by the government will go down in history along with the York massacres as a reminder that the UK is a less than totally hospitable place for Jews.

The Orthodox Jewish Definition of who is Jewish has not changed in over 3,300 years. If the mother is Jewish, then the baby is Jewish.

If a non-Jewish person understands and accepts upon him or herself to follow all of the commandments, that person can become Jewish. The person must appear before a Beis Din, or Rabbinical Court of Rabbis that accept all of the commandments. This is why "Rabbis" who don't accept the commandments are disqualified to sit on such a court. Since they can't sit on such a court, they can't make a determination that a conversion is valid.

If the conversion is valid, a male must be circumcised in a Brith Milah ceremony. (If he is already circumcised, there is a process where blood is drawn.) Then a male or a woman must totally imerse, naked in a "Mikvah" or ritual bath with witnesses. Once the court can certify that has happened, the court then pronounces the conversion valid.

This is the process as laid down in The Torah and the Talmud. It has not changed and will not change. Orthodox Jews believe that there is a unique relationship to being Jewish and a unique set or requirements from our creator. The creator told us who is and is not Jewish. This is one of those things we can't change.

There is however a second quote that has me concerned. It is as follows: Joshua Rowe, chair of governors at Manchester’s King David High School, the largest state-funded Orthodox school outside London, said: "The selection process at JFS and other denominational schools is based on religion, not race. The test of birth is a religious test, not a racist one. It is a test utilized to define who is a Jew, and it is a test which is intended solely to preserve the religious character of the school and the right to preserve ‘difference.’ To the extent that it might be argued that Judaism is itself racist (because it defines membership on the basis of birth), the rebuttal must surely lie in the fact that anyone who is not Jewish by birth is nevertheless entitled to join the faith."

If there are government funded schools, that may be a different circumstance. If the government is providing funds, the government has the right to provide any rules for funds it wishes. If Jewish schools find the rules unacceptable, then they should find a private source of funding.

If there is a legal process for getting the government rules to be more hospitable, the Jewish citizens of the UK should have the same rights as others to utilize that process to get rules that they find more acceptable.

Walter

[walter05]

Since a charge of racism has been made, I want to remind all of something. There have been severe wars and famine in Ethiopia and much of the horn of Africa.

Israel risked its treasure and lives of its pilots and others to bring Ethiopians that are fully Jewish to Israel.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America.

No Islamic or Christian state in the world has launched a similar effort to save its fellow parishoners.

Judaism is the least racist faith in the world.

[tiger79]

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are around 7000 "faith schools" in this tiny island. They are largely Government-funded, but are allowed to establish their own admissions policies. Worryingly, the vast majority are primary schools, for very young children. But there's huge ignorance about what these schools are actually doing, so they get away with it.

[David77]

Anthropologist tell us that Jews are not a race, but a group that tries to keep ethnic traditions alive and well. I don't know whether or not anthropologists would classify Jews as a sub-culture in the USA.

[MoonShadow]

Walter, just base on the article for this particular school, it is practicing racism but my apologies if it sounded like I am saying jewish people are racist.

[walter05]

The article included the word "racism".

However, there is nothing the school is doing that is racist.

That use of the word was incorrect.

[walter05]

The court said, "The three judges, one of them Jewish, ruled that any selection criteria that gives ethnic priority to a Jew is showing racial discrimination".

In defense of the article, the court said that. However, this finding by the court is false.

The court wishes to define the criteria as who is Jewish as related to practice and observance. That is not a decision for the court.

When I taught at the Catholic High School, there was a policy giving preference to Catholics. I never thought of that as racist. It was merely attempting to make sure that a Catholic school teaches Catholics.

[David77]

The court wishes to define the criteria as who is Jewish as related to practice and observance. That is not a decision for the court.


The school rejeced the boy for admission as they did not consider him Jewish even though his father was Jewish, simply because his mother was not Jewish. However I feel certain that this would not be the case in a Reform Jewish school, as they would consider him as Jewish.

There are three major movements (denominations) of Judiasm in the USA; Orthodox, Conservative and Reform.


"Although all Jewish movements (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/movement.htm) agree on these general principles, there are occasional disputes as to whether a particular individual is a Jew. Most of these disputes fall into one of two categories.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is.

The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement.

On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question.
Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/rabbi.htm) to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis."

A Reform Rabbi, who is a woman, has delivered the sermon at our Unitarian Universalist Church and seems similar to our regular minister in values, style, presentation, etc. I think that she would accept anyone, Jew or non-Jew, to the religious classes at their temple, just as she accepts students of any religion living in the neighborhood in mentoring them in evening classes in improving their regular school work.

Walter is Orthodox, which, as of the year 2000, represents 10% of the 5 million Jews in the USA.

I have heard that the reason that the bible shows linage only through the mother, is because they can be 100% certain who the mother is, but can not be 100% certain who the father is.
This may or may not be the reason.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

[walter05]

David said:


The school rejeced the boy for admission as they did not consider him Jewish even though his father was Jewish, simply because his mother was not Jewish. However I feel certain that this would not be the case in a Reform Jewish school, as they would consider him as Jewish.

>>> I quote a reformed Rabbi in the U.K. You are correct in the difference. However, the question is who gets to decide. It should not be a secular court or one where there is an oath of loyalty to a church.<<<

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is.

On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement!

>>>
Orthodox Judaism would say that person is a Jew according to scriptures. Orthodox Judaism says no human being has a right to decide who is Jewish.

Therefore, according to your accurate quotes, Reformed Judaism would reject someone as Jewish which scripture says is Jewish.
<<<

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements.

>>>

As I stated above, the judges on the court must attest to the supremacy of the law. Any one who does not is not qualified to sit on the court. Orthodx Jews say Reformed rabbis and others who reject that supremacy are not qualified to sit on a Beis Din or rabbinical court. As a result, they can't validate a conversion.

<<<

A Reform Rabbi, who is a woman, has delivered the sermon at our Unitarian Universalist Church and seems similar to our regular minister in values, style, presentation, etc. I think that she would accept anyone, Jew or non-Jew, to the religious classes at their temple, just as she accepts students of any religion living in the neighborhood in mentoring them in evening classes in improving their regular school work.

>>>

This statement shows why she would not be considered able to perform valid conversions to Orthodox Judaism. Her views are more similar to your Universalist Church. While that may be nice, it demonstrates that she does not consider the scriptures and the law supreme.

<<<

I have heard that the reason that the bible shows linage only through the mother, is because they can be 100% certain who the mother is, but can not be 100% certain who the father is.
This may or may not be the reason.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

The scripture tells us not to allow your daughters to marry non-Jewish men lest they should cause the children to go away from the traditions. It says nothing about the sons marrying non-Jewish women. It is from here that we learn that the child of Jewish woman is Jewish regardless of the status of the father and not the other way around.

If one believes that the scripture is the word of our creator, one does not need to rationalize. We don't really know the reasons. We are told that is who is Jewish and we do as told.

[David77]

If one believes that the scripture is the word of our creator, one does not need to rationalize.


The reference states, "Reform Judaism does not believe in the binding nature of Torah, and Conservative Judaism believes that the law can change."

[walter05]

David;

There is no single standard for what Reformed or Conservative Judaism believe. There is a lot of variability within those terms.

Walter