Is it a sin to masterbate?

[Jerry C.]

Hi everyone!

I've not posted in a while, but I was talking to a "Christian" (very nominal-worldly) friend and he asked me point blank if I masturbated. Of course I said yes (95% of guys do).

I then further stated that as a single Christian waiting for that special Christian woman, I believe that masturbation is the "least of all the sexual evils."

His question and accusation was that in order to masturbate, I had to fantasize about having sex with a woman, etc. Well, yes that's true I said.
He quoted Matthew 5:28, which says (with verse 27):

27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He stated that because I'm imaging having sex with a woman that I'm violating the above verse and that makes me a hypocrite.

He stated further that masturbating is being selfish and that when he feels the urge, he gets a woman to have sex so he can "share it with someone else." He therefore considers himself consistant and me not.

What do ya'll think about this?

[Bob S.]

I'm not a Christian and have never understood the whole "sin" thing seeing as how according to the Christian belief system, we are all sinners.

But as for the verse concerning adultery, how can adultery have been committed if both involved are single and not in any relationships?

And since when does your right hand qualify as a woman? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But seriously, if you do not consider it a sin, then who is your friend to say that you are wrong? Surely he is not suggesting that he is G*d. And I would love to know how the conversation got turned into a question of masturbation or did he just ask out of the blue, causing you to nearly choke on your chips. If he asks you again, just tell him it is none of his dam business.

Bob S.

[greensunshine]

I second your answer Bart...I too believe there are some things one does not ask anyone including their spouses or significant others...and some things are best left to the individual.

And Guys while we are on the subject of questions we shouldn't ask...include the following one when communicating with us females on your list:

"Have you ever been raped?"

Even if the female has, it is none of your flippen business unless she volunteers the information and the if she does..."Do not probe her for details!!!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Rape is a very private issue that is best left to the individual/victum and those they elect to share the information with....Grrrr

!!!!!!!!!!Both questions more likely than not, are none of anyone's business!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greensunshine in the Pacific Northwest /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[nudeM]

To all concerned parties involved in this discussion, not only is it none of anyones business, as far as private happenings going on behind closed doors, or being a victim of a past crime, I really don't think this the right place to post these subjects. This is a nudist site, not a psychology forum. I don't see the relationship about the previous situations pertain anything towards naturism. Am I wrong? I think these should be deleted by the administrators, due to the fact, there is nothing relating to the nudist lifestyle. Thanks

[Trailscout]

Jerry,

The Bible is silent about masturbation. It seems a given that we will do it as normal healthy adults. The sexual energy behind it is God-given and is not sinful.

Yes, it is possible to masturbate in conjunction with adulterous thoughts, but it would be a mistake to assume that they always go together.

In the same manner, nudity is not always for the purposes of sex.

Masturbation is a relief for sexual tension. I do believe that Christians are accountible for their thought life, and one should not dwell on adulterous thoughts in the process of masturbation. I do believe that it is good for a single person to celebrate his or her sexual energy and enjoy (in private) the sensations that sexual arousal brings.

Excessive masturbation, like anything done to excess can be symptomatic of unmet needs in one's life. Masturbation is no substitute for friendships and romance with the opposite sex.

Relieving one's sexual tension through masturbation should not deny a wife or husband of the sexual intimacy they need. In a healthy marriage, your sexual energy is not yours to keep to yourself, but becomes the joint possession of a couple.

[RalphVa]

I agree. The Bible is silent about masturbation.

It is also silent about early Christians being baptised nude (Early Christian era writers tell us about it).

Also silent about nude olympics at the time of Christ.

Also silent about public nude baths.

I conclude that none of these were condemned by the NT writers.

If you ever see a Baptist who is adamant about not going nude, just comment to him that "I guess the early Christians weren't Baptists since they were baptised nude."

Ralph

[bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo]

Of course it is a sin to masturbate . You will die a horribe long and painful death even if you think about it. the evidence is clear. The Victorians knew what they were talking about and thank God we still carry the legacy they left us.
You should always listen to what other people tell even if you think what they are saying may be stupid and you should interprete the endlessly re-written words of a medieval political book in which ever way suits your purpose.
It is your duty.

For those unfamiliar with it , this post is loaded with irony and some spelling mistakes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bertiepotato:
Of course it is a sin to masturbate . You will die a horribe long and painful death even if you think about it. the evidence is clear. The Victorians knew what they were talking about and thank God we still carry the legacy they left us.
You should always listen to what other people tell even if you think what they are saying may be stupid and you should interprete the endlessly re-written words of a medieval political book in which ever way suits your purpose.
It is your duty.

For those unfamiliar with it , this post is loaded with irony and some spelling mistakes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the levity Bertie.... I think people need to be reminded that anything taken from that book is an interpretation which makes it an opinion. It is not fact. It was written in a time when the world was a very different place and most of the knowledge we have now just wasn't available.

The facts are that modern medical journals tell us that masturbation is not only normal but necessary to keep the body healthy. People who don't take care of it are more likely to release in their sleep which is a way for the body to take over when the mind is taught wrong.

I do agree that this whole thread has nothing to do with nudism or even nudity and I wonder why it is even here.

[NoodieP]

If its a sin then I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I agree that this is not a nudist topic per se, more of a general population one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I believe--just an opinion--that there is only sin involved if there are sexual fantasies involved. It's quite possible to masturbate without the fantasies, but it's not nearly as much fun.

I waited until others replied to this since I agree that it has nothing to do with nudism. What I would like to know is: Why does God give us sexual desires and then tell us that it's a sin to enjoy them unless we're married? What could possibly be wrong with a person satisfying their God-given sexual urges manually if they are convicted against having sex with someone to whom they're not married?

Your friend says that masturbation is a sin but his "getting a woman" ISN'T? God's word says that that "getting a woman" for sex is and says nothing against masturbation?

Adultery involves at least one married person. When it's two single people involved, it's called fornication. Two words that mean basically the same thing depending on the marital status of the individuals.

If your friend is unmarried and "gets a woman" to satisfy his urges, he is, according to the Bible, committing fornication. Of course, as we all know, the commandments in the Bible mean nothing whatsover to those who don't believe them to be the Word of God or don't believe in God. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

At the time the bible was written women were considered personal property of men just like cattle and slaves were. A married man was legally allowed to sleep around and have mistresses while women were not. Therefore if you follow the bible and are male you cannot commit adultery unless the woman is married or engaged to another man. A man could have sex with an unmarried slave for instance and that was allowed.

An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a
married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse
between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was
regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin. The Mosaic law (Num.
5:11-31) prescribed that the suspected wife should be tried by the ordeal of
the "water of jealousy." There is, however, no recorded instance of the
application of this law. In subsequent times the Rabbis made various
regulations with the view of discovering the guilty party, and of bringing
about a divorce. It has been inferred from John 8:1-11 that this sin became
very common during the age preceding the destruction of Jerusalem. Idolatry,
covetousness, and apostasy are spoken of as adultery spiritually (Jer. 3:6, 8,
9; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 1:2:3; Rev. 2:22). An apostate church is an adulteress
(Isa. 1:21; Ezek. 23:4, 7, 37), and the Jews are styled "an adulterous
generation" (Matt. 12:39). (Comp. Rev. 12.)

Alsso in the bible is the story of a man who was told by god to sleep with his brother's wife after the brother died. He started to and instead allowed his "seed" to spill upon the ground. This was supposedly a big no-no and is behind some of the reasoning why it is supposed to be wrong to masturbate. What isn't told is that the guy knew that if he had a child with that woman that the child would inherit what was his brother's. By not getting her pregnant he got to keep the dead brother's possessions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Of course, as we all know, the commandments in the Bible mean nothing whatsover to those who don't believe them to be the Word of God or don't believe in God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also the bible itself means nothing to many who believe in God.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Of course, as we all know, the commandments in the Bible mean nothing whatsover to those who don't believe them to be the Word of God or don't believe in God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also the bible itself means nothing to many who believe in God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also, many who do not believe in God nor believe that the Ten Commandments are the Word of God, have a good moral or ethical system, without the need of "ten commandments". Examples of this are the "billion" persons living in China and those of the Buddist faith, non-religionist, etc.

[bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NoodieP:
[QB]If its a sin then I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Hey, you can get $200 dollars ?!?

I should be a millionaire !

cyndiann,

The man's name in the Bible was Onan. He didn't inherit anything because God killed him for his disobedience. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Trailscout]

I do not share the cynicism of some about the divine inspiration of the Bible. I do believe that Christians should recognize that the scriptures are a gradual revelation of the will of God to his people over thousands of years, encountering a society in opposition to his will. In other words, slavery and the subjugation of women are not the will of God, but through the prophets, God set in motion a process that led to sexual and racial equality.

Nudism and masturbation, on the surface, are unrelated topics, but many people in organized religion object to both for the same underlying reasons: body shame and a denial of human sexuality as a good thing.

I will hasten to add that just because humans are sexual beings, does not mean that they should indulge in sex outside of marriage.

[Nature Leseul]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry C.:

He stated further that masturbating is being selfish and that when he feels the urge, he gets a woman to have sex so he can "share it with someone else." He therefore considers himself consistant and me not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, first off, this silliness merits a response, in particular the implication of his claim that sex is other than selfish. By any rational ethical theory, sex is an act at least as selfish as masturbation; in all likelihood more so. Ayn Rand went so far as to describe sex as "the most profoundly selfish of all acts." I don't really subscribe to Rand's sexual theory, but I can accept the basic premise that sex, for a rational mind, is a response to value and is therefore by nature selfish.

Not that has anything to do with the topic of the thread. Somewhat more on topic:

Theorem: It is not a sin to masturbate.

Proof: The question at hand cannot be addressed without a working definition of what we mean by "sin." It is probably an oversimplification, but the question becomes more easily approachable if it is assumed that "sinful" is interchangeable with "evil."

What, then, is evil? A thing which we say to be "good" is a thing which is, by some standard, of value; conversely, "evil" denotes a thing which is without value. Questions of value presuppose a standard against which values are measured, which requires first a consciousness to which things are of value. And, because reason requires that the certain be given precedence over the hypothetical, then the two objectively demonstrable facts of existence which provide a foundation for a rational standard of value are life in the real world and Man's consciousness. The value of a thing must mean primarily its value to Man's life in this world.

In summary: "good" denotes that which is of benefit to Man's life and, as a corrolary, Man's happiness; "evil" means that which is anti-Man, anti-life.

There are claims under which masturbation could arguably be classed as "good" or "evil" by this standard. On the one side is the claim that masturbation provides release for energy which would otherwise manifest itself in ways much more easily defined as "evil"; on the other, the claim that masturbation erodes the respect of Man for himself as a "spiritual being" (which, in a rational sense, can only be considered to be synonymous with "rational being"). However, both claims rely upon the premise that Man is an automaton whose values and motivations are determined without his intervention as the automatic outcomes of objectively unrelated action. This is not the case. Man is a creature of volition, which means that every action he takes is the direct result of some conscious or subcionscous choice. In the case of the person able to live happy and free of sexual tension, or the person condemned to the life of the sexual pervert, the masturbation can be viewed at most as a symptom. Value-judgements cannot be meaningfully applied to symptom; a cold virus, by the standard of value to human life, is evil, but "the sniffles" are not.

It may still be possible to argue that masturbation is a conscious action by which sexual tension is released and thereby prevented from interfering in the "good" activities of human life, allowing it to be categorized as "good," but I find it difficult to credit this alleged good being any different from the other physical chores necessary for the maintenance of the human body - tooth-cleaning, bathing, and the elimination of wastes.

Most likely, however, while masturbation is not "evil," it cannot be regarded as meaningfully "good" either. It is ethically neutral, and should be treated as nonessential in the consideration of human life.

"I will hasten to add that just because humans are sexual beings, does not mean that they should indulge in sex outside of marriage."

Anyone that gets into a lifetime commitment without knowing how the sex will be is just plain braindead. It is no wonder our divorce rate is 50%.

[Trailscout]

Cyndiann,

You are entitled to your opinions, but I don't feel that you made a strong enough case to convince me that premarital sex or casual sex is a necessary precursor to the complete union of two people, body, soul and spirit.

It is akin to hoping that textile gawkers on a nude beach are somehow being prepared by their behavior for social nudism.

Another person suggested that masturbation is always morally neutral. I disagree. A married man who masturbates to the point of orgasm can deny his wife's sexual needs by doing so. If she wants sexual relations, because of the relatively long recovery period (the "refractory period" in medical terms), many men would be unable to perform their marital duties that night.

Women have a much faster recovery time from orgasm and can masturbate without impairing their abilities for subsequent orgasm with their husbands later on. In fact, female masturbation may be helpful to sexual intercourse.

[Nuudnlovinit]

In my opinion it is not a sin to masturbate, there is a reason for our behaviors as the sexual beings that all of us are. To go around believing that it is sinful is to do an injustice to yourself. Anything that gives us pleasure, and causes no harm to others is not a sin. The ones who are judging us, who are they anyhow?

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
. . . . It is no wonder our divorce rate is 50%. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is essentially an "urban myth" that I believe has done a lot of harm to people's understanding of marriage.

This is a quote from Louis Harris, the famous pollster:

"The idea that half of American marriages are doomed is one of the most specious pieces of statistical nonsense ever perpetuated in modern times."

He explains that one year the Census Bureau noticed that there were 2.4 million marriages and 1.2 million divorces. Someone did the math without calculating the 54 million marriages already in existence. Just like that a false but quoteable statistic was born.

Harris: "Only one out of eight marriages will end in divorce. In any single year, only about 2% of existing marriages will break up."

Incidentally, this is not a criticism of Cyndiann. She only quoted a common misperception. I'm just taking the opportunity to lift up the message that far more marriages succeed than most people think.

Cyndiann did cite the perceived divorce rate as a reason to engage in sex before marriage. Unpacking that would lead to a long discussion that maybe doesn't even fit this forum, so I'll just add a quiet disagreement without the details behind it. I'm not aware of any evidence that sex before marriage decreases the likelihood of divorce, but there are reasons to believe that it has the opposite effect. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

In my case I am not looking to get married. If I were to abide by these christian rules I'd not be allowed to have sex ever again. Ha! LOL!

As for masturbation, it keeps us single people safe from diseases and is healthy for the body as well. There are even masturbation clubs in most metropolitan areas. I'm personally not interested in such clubs but I think they are great, especially those who like visual stimulation.

BTW, a healthy married guy won't be hurt by masturbation unless it is extremely excessive. In some cases it helps the sex life because it can help a guy to last longer when actually getting it with the wife.

And luvnaturism, thanks for the info. I tried a search engine for more on what you were saying and was unsucessful. Could you throw me a link or two?

[fns]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
In my case I am not looking to get married. If I were to abide by these christian rules I'd not be allowed to have sex ever again. Ha! LOL!

As for masturbation, it keeps us single people safe from diseases and is healthy for the body as well. There are even masturbation clubs in most metropolitan areas. I'm personally not interested in such clubs but I think they are great, especially those who like visual stimulation.

BTW, a healthy married guy won't be hurt by masturbation unless it is extremely excessive. In some cases it helps the sex life because it can help a guy to last longer when actually getting it with the wife.

And luvnaturism, thanks for the info. I tried a search engine for more on what you were saying and was unsucessful. Could you throw me a link or two? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with your point. It does keep married folk from going outside the marriage, and can help in lasting longer with the wife. I'm single now, but know of what you speak.
I am single now myself. Masturbation also helps keep one from doing something, or someone, they should not. Hope this helps.

Dan

[Trailscout]

To Jerry and all other Christians,

Masturbation or being nude can be used for good or evil.

Jesus repeatedly taught a hierarchy of divine law, beginning with the Sh'ma, tied in with the Golden Rule. The other laws in the Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy) are subordinate and were a merely a guide to obeying the highest commandments of loving God and one's fellow man.

Before one chooses to be nude in a certain situation, you quickly assess if your nudity will be an agent for good in that situation or evil. Same applies to masturbation.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
. . . . And luvnaturism, thanks for the info. I tried a search engine for more on what you were saying and was unsucessful. Could you throw me a link or two? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The material appeared in Leadership, which is a professional journal oriented primarily to clergy. You can access it at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/6l3/6l3069.html

Scroll down the page until you come to the topic "Divorce."

[Plexitron]

Jerry,

Actually, there is some debate over this passage. Find a Strong's Concordance. The word for "lust" is epithumeo (#1937). Literally, this would mean something like "superfierceness." "Lust" in current English is a strong word, epithumeo is even stronger.

The first translator of the Bible into English, Wycliffe, translated it "covet," which in the context of adultery, fits. It is a specific reference to the Jewish Ten Commandments which Christ fulfilled. So, "Lust" is to become so overcome with perverted desire, that one must have what doesn't belong to him, such as another man's wife.

Naturally, the interpretation of the passage depends on what church you are attending, but frankly, I can't believe that that this is a flaw in God's Creation. You are describing a natural act which to the higher minded is an uplifting experience. Functionally, it releases chemicals in the brain which can relieve stress, mollify a bad temper, and help fight insomnia. I think God knew what he was doing when he made us.

If, however, your peers take a different position and you are afraid to follow your own conscience, then just modify your fantasies so they don't seem like "lust" to you. "Lust" is a pretty strong, word, so you have some lee-way here. Or, if you want to be really extreme, focus on the pleasures and sensations and not on a woman. By the way, if your fantasy is on a woman who doesn't exist, whom are you lusting after? She disappears when you are done, doesn't she?

By the way, I think your friend was just pulling your chain. He feels guilty for having sex. He is most likely joking, and if not, you can finish reading Matt 5 and 6 about hypocrites. He's the hypocrite, not you!

Last, psychologists seem to be in universal agreement that the activity is necessary for a sound mind in a sound body.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry C.:
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What do ya'll think about this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvnaturism:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
. . . . And luvnaturism, thanks for the info. I tried a search engine for more on what you were saying and was unsucessful. Could you throw me a link or two? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The material appeared in Leadership, which is a professional journal oriented primarily to clergy. You can access it at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/6l3/6l3069.html

Scroll down the page until you come to the topic "Divorce." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm.... did some more digging and I found a debunking to your debunking. I know it is higher than 8% because just about everyone I know has been divorced at least once.

http://archives.his.com/smartmarriages/msg00517.html

What he says is that it is really not possible to come up with a rate for everyone and that it varies according to age group.

[Trailscout]

MountainPapa,

I hope you are not married. If so and you pleasure yourself all the time with no regard for your wife's sexual needs, you will find yourself sleeping in the doghouse pretty soon.

[florida-david]

mountainpapa - i could not agree more with you on all your personal beliefs. my beliefs come from a jewish background, though i am not "religious" in the sense of organized religion. i do believe that organized religion alters beliefs in a way that i do not like and i shall not impose those beliefs on my kids. i do feel that masturbation is safe (obviuosly fun) and good for the body. as long as it is done out of the public view.

i visited your website, and although not relevant to this masturbation discussion, i enjoy your viewpoints. there are a lot of needy kids out their, i hope one finds you (who is the boy in the picture?). there is someone else on this site who mentioned his adopted children; my wife and i adopted our daughter from korea (my wife is also an adopted korean war baby). maybe we should start a new post?

also, thanks for saying something about circumcision as i am very AGAINST IT. both of my boys "look different than daddy" and we enjoy the differences.

[greensunshine]

Dear MountainPaPa,

I found your "post" rather difficult to read and understand, especially as you were screaming at everyone who read it...could/would you please release your "Caps Lock key" before posting anything more in the future. And to be honest, I was forgiving of your first post when I read it this morning, and I chose to try and forgive you on your second post, but the third post was going way beyond my tolerance level... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Sorry but after reading and talking to other guys about not having been circumcised, and their having to live with the "it should have been done's", I have a hard time excepting the reasons for a guy not having the surgery as an infant...not to mention the after effects when it comes to intimacy between two concenting adults...and personally I do find a cut penis a turn on /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif while in the act. Not to mention, the ease in keeping it cleaner during other times...an uncut penis is a great place /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif for germs to breed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

In addition, if having this surgery done were as harmful as I think you were trying to say, I don't think the practice and exceptance would have continued for as many years as it has.

Greensunshine /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rik]

Greensunshine,

The bottom line is that routine circumcision on infants is at best unnecessary mutilation, at worst it is child abuse. If guys want to be circumcised then fine, but let them make the decision for themselves when they are adult enough to do so.

Rik

[jeslrs]

Masterbation is not a replacement for making love to your wife, but rather a quick interlude for pleasure in a busy life. I see nothing wrong with it. Others should not be so concerned with what I do with my body. There are so many other things that are worthy of the concern.

To circumcise an infant is pure torture. I understand the reasons to circumcise based in religeous beliefs. Maybe 2000 years ago it was good. By today's standards, with showers and baths so easy to 'have', there is no longer a need. Now the ceremony is based on history and what we use to do. My two boys were not cut after talking it through with my wife. We both said, if they want to be circumcised, it will be thier decision later in life. Both boys, now grown men, have thanked us for not having the procedure done. If my boys come to me for advice, when it is their decision for their sons, I will advise to not giving in to archaic religeous beliefs and leaving their son's penis as God intended.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by greensunshine:
Dear MountainPaPa,

I found your "post" rather difficult to read and understand, especially as you were screaming at everyone who read it...could/would you please release your "Caps Lock key" before posting anything more in the future. And to be honest, I was forgiving of your first post when I read it this morning, and I chose to try and forgive you on your second post, but the third post was going way beyond my tolerance level... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And what of our tolerance level of your shallow posts? Numbers of people have had issue with your posts on looks and how men need to be before you would date them. You never answered anyone back so I guess you can't defend yourself on that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Sorry but after reading and talking to other guys about not having been circumcised, and their having to live with the "it should have been done's", I have a hard time excepting the reasons for a guy not having the surgery as an infant...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First of all, the word is "accepting" not excepting.
Give me one good reason it should be done..... there are none expect it has become tradition. Why would you want babies to be cut for no reason? Would you take the chance that your son could come out with deformities and even sometimes with no penis? It happens.

As for your friends that wish they were cut there is nothing stopping them from doing it now. It should not be done on babies who can't consent. If someone wishes it done later in life it is their decision.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
not to mention the after effects when it comes to intimacy between two concenting adults...and personally I do find a cut penis a turn on /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif while in the act.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What aftereffects? Women get sore faster with cut guys because there is more friction. Men miss out on 30% of the feeling they would have had if they weren't cut. What turns you on about looking at scars?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Not to mention, the ease in keeping it cleaner during other times...an uncut penis is a great place /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif for germs to breed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess it would also be better to shop off a baby's ears to make it easy to keep them clean as well. And while we are at it, you know how dirty a kid's hands can get when they are young so why not chop them off as well?

Surgery is easier than a bath????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In addition, if having this surgery done were as harmful as I think you were trying to say, I don't think the practice and exceptance would have continued for as many years as it has.

Greensunshine /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But it isn't continuing... the rate is declining. It would decline faster if people did their homework and found out the real facts. It would decline faster if doctors were not making so much money from this mutilation as well. The American Medical Association no longer recommends it but the docs aren't willing to lose the income.

I'm not cut and glad of it. Years ago I was told about a baby who was being circumcised when the doctor's hand slipped and cut off more than the foreskin. They decided to turn him into a she and raise him/her as a girl. I wonder if they ever tols that person the truth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

First of all with regard to the question is it a sin to masturbate? Of course it isn't. The concept of "sin" is an archaic and illogical one. There is no such thing as a sin. But if you do want to masturbate then do it in private and keep it to yourself.

"I'm not cut and glad of it. Years ago I was told about a baby who was being circumcised when the doctor's hand slipped and cut off more than the foreskin."

I had some very extensive surgery in that area as a child and luckily the surgeon make a decent job of it.

"They decided to turn him into a she and raise him/her as a girl. I wonder if they ever tols that person the truth."

The person you are referring to was actually a twin boy. He was raised as a girl but reverted back to being male in adulthood and is now a happily married man (albeit somewhat incomplete). I have nothing but the utmost admiration for him.

Stu

[florida-david]

i know a friend who had the circumcision done by the hospital hacker and they screwed it up three times. finally she told them to leave it alone and the kid has a funny "ring" flap sort of thing. had they just left him alone, he would look like 80% of the world.

just like false boobs, this is another american attempt at sculpting ourselves to look like something we are not. this is the NATURIST site, can't we look as we were intended??

It's interesting how a subject suddenly changes. This started out with a question about masturbation and turned into a discussion about circumcism. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Daz]

Hi,

Just a quick bit of info...as far as males masturbating - for some guys if they haven't released for a while the build up can be extremely painful. Therefore it is a huge neccessity to masturbate to stop the pain.

Secondly it is medically important for guys to masturbate if not having sex with a partner...it helps prevent prostate cancer - medical studies have showed this. So does this mean that following the highly interprative bible can cause cancer???!!! LOL

As for women doing it for themselves I really can't comment because I'm male.

Take care
Daryl

Daz,

As a Christian I follow the Bible very closely. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says masturbation is wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[nudeM]

The only sin I can see about masterbating, is if it is being done out in the open, for all to see. There is nothing wrong about it being done privately behind closed doors. It is none of anyones business what anyone does to their own bodies.

I have personally seen someone masterbating on a beach, but that individual was being very discreet about it. He did it privately as he was laying on his side. I supposed he did it because he was earlier sporting an erection. After performing his "private duty", he did start walking around again.

Just my two-cents worth.

[BrianM]

This topic has been beat to death now (pun intended). So lets cut (pun again) to the chase. I have been trying to understand the context of the Bible, and many of these commandments and laws communicated by Moses was really an attempt to save the race. In the wild, humans are pretty vulnerable creatures. To survive, we have to wear clothes at times, and restrict some behaviors in order to avoid deadly infections and many other problems. Compare our bodies as compared to a Lion, for example. Infection in pre-antibiotic times was often deadly. Sex is a very good way to spread infection, as well as many other things condemed in the Bible (like thing you can eat, not eat etc) so it is taught that that activity should be minimized (and especially with frequent multiple partners). Circumcision was an attempt to help prevent spread of disease. The lust thing is just a precurser to sex, so it is frowned upon also. Even if Jesus said that thinking of adultery is Adultery in the mind, I do not remember the commandment saying that "thou shalt not commit adultery in ones mind".
Also, for the self rightious, to sin is Human, to judge is blasphemy!
BTW, I beleive we were created by God, but am not a Bible literalist.

[red55]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry C.:
Hi everyone!

I've not posted in a while, but I was talking to a "Christian" (very nominal-worldly) friend and he asked me point blank if I masturbated. Of course I said yes (95% of guys do).

I then further stated that as a single Christian waiting for that special Christian woman, I believe that masturbation is the "least of all the sexual evils."

His question and accusation was that in order to masturbate, I had to fantasize about having sex with a woman, etc. Well, yes that's true I said.
He quoted Matthew 5:28, which says (with verse 27):

27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He stated that because I'm imaging having sex with a woman that I'm violating the above verse and that makes me a hypocrite.

He stated further that masturbating is being selfish and that when he feels the urge, he gets a woman to have sex so he can "share it with someone else." He therefore considers himself consistant and me not.

What do ya'll think about this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[red55]

Hi I am new to your discusions. Thought I would add my thought. I was told that masterbation is a good way to release tension sexual or otherwise. A number of self help books recomend it. It is also recommended by many urologists to do at least 2-3 times a week if not having sex regularly. This is very important in older men to prevent prostitis. As for the sin element I was told by a minister that the sin comes in when you lust for a certain person, or when your thoughts while doing it are degrading the other person male or female. Or it is used to avoid relationships in general. Sin is the deminishment of ourselves or others. If by masterbating we are doing what is natural, medically recommended, or a way to contol strong urges that are otherwise degrading to ourselves or others then it should not be a sin.

[barebody]

Masturbation is a sin composed of self-indulgence, debauchery, and adultery (putting something else before your relationship with God) To get rid of tension, and not give in to temptations, one should rely on the Spirit.

Galatians 5: So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The Acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; (v16-19)

Doctors might say masturbation is O.K.; but, it's because they're not looking to, or even thinking of, GOD. When wondering if something is a sin, keep in mind who you are offending if it is. Thus, instead of relying on people's opinions, read what God's word has to say about it- He is the only one you would be sinning against if you did commit a sin.

Red55 and Barebody....Two very interesting summaries...I have personally struggled with this issue for many years and have concluded that masturbation in private is not sinful but one of Gods most pleasurable gifts of our creation ... . Arm lenghth ,function of hands and fingers etc. But as with any of his valuable gifts it must be treasured and not abused.Soooo I tend to relate most to Red 55's summary

[Snoboy]

Outdoorbare, you surely got a fired-up discussion to your MASTURBATION inquiry. Frankly, masturbation is a great release of all tension and is no sin. People beat everything to death. It should be a private thing and should never be used to cause harm to someone else. Enjoy the self-pleasuring...in a day when unsafe sex can kill...it is by far the most wise of choices and frankly it is no ones business. God has more to be concerned about than the self gratification of a man or a woman. When I was single my physician often recommended masturbation to me because of pain association with lack of ejaculations and I have not lost my sight nor do I have hairy palms. With that said, enjoy life. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
To survive, we have to wear clothes at times, and restrict some behaviors in order to avoid deadly infections and many other problems. Sex is a very good way to spread infection, as well as many other things condemed in the Bible (like thing you can eat, not eat etc) so it is taught that that activity should be minimized (and especially with frequent multiple partners). The lust thing is just a precurser to sex, so it is frowned upon also. Even if Jesus said that thinking of adultery is Adultery in the mind, I do not remember the commandment saying that "thou shalt not commit adultery in ones mind".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm..... if all that were so then how come men were allowed to have sex with their female slaves? It wasn't considered adultery.

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
[QUOTE]Hmmm..... if all that were so then how come men were allowed to have sex with their female slaves? It wasn't considered adultery. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good question, lets see if I can make up some other crazy reason for all this madness...maybe they had to be virgin slaves, and man couldn't let other guys have them until he was finished with them????This Bible stuff is crazy , huh? I am LMFAO!

[theoldman]

Much better for boys just into puberty to masturbate than get some girl pregnant. When I attained puberty my dad told me masturbation was a private thing and, since i, like the rest of the family, slept naked, I wasn't to mess up the sheets.

When my son got to where his mother & I felt he'd be ready to start masturbating we had a discussion about it. It was easy enough to tell when this time arrived as he started rapid penis growth, pubic hair and erections. We explained masturbation was a normal, natural thing and was a good way to relieve (sexual) tension. We told him it was something he should do in private, but not to be ashamed of doing it. We told him that if he got an erection and an uncontrollable urge to masturbate to go to his room, take care of the matter and rejoin us. We always made sure there was a box of kleenex on his bedstand and he knew he was to use it.

As far as I can determine he has instilled the same ideas in his son.

In short, I see nothing wrong physically or morally with masturbation. I'm an active practicing Christian as well as a person who lives a naked lifestyle and one who masturbated a good lot as a young teenager. I do not think the way I've lived my life will condem me to hell.

I wish my dad had done with me as you did with your son. I applaud the way you handled it. I'm sure he never felt guilty about it as I did thanks to my dad. He told me I would go crazy by age 21 and would go blind. When I became a Christian at age 17, he tried to scare me by using Onan in the Bible as an example of what happens when this "sin" is done. Onan went in onto the woman and pulled out at the last moment and spilled it on the ground. That has nothing to do with masturbation.

My question is why does God give us sexual desires and then tell us to ignore them unless we're married? That's not humanly possible. I don't believe in sex outside of marriage, but masturbation always worked for me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[tarsus]

have to agree with nudem and greensunshine on this one.nobodys business. there are other sites to handle this type question also.

[David77]

theoldman,
I also want to very much applaud your attitude and approach which you took concerning the question of your son's masturbation. I also applaud your and your wife's very sensible attitude described in your other post regarding your son's and grandson's erections. Both show great acceptance of blessed nature, realistic thinking, and family problem solving with kindness.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:

Hmmmm.... did some more digging and I found a debunking to your debunking. I know it is higher than 8% because just about everyone I know has been divorced at least once.

http://archives.his.com/smartmarriages/msg00517.html

What he says is that it is really not possible to come up with a rate for everyone and that it varies according to age group.[/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Personally I subscribe to the theory that figures don't lie, but liars will figure. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously, that's an interesting discussion in the link you provided. Thanks for making me aware of that. It does illustrate that calculating the divorce rate, which seems to be simple enough, is actually quite a complicate business.

Some quick comments:

* My original reference to Louis Harris didn't put the divorce rate at 8%. His figure was about 1 in 8, which is 12.5%, and is within range of the lower figures in the discussion that you cited.

* I don't think personal perceptions count for much when the subject is something so vast as the national divorce rate. Nowhere near half of my personal acquaintances have been divorced, but that doesn't mean anything either.

* The discussion that you cited taken as a whole suggests that the divorce rate, if a reliable way to calculate it were found, would be much less than half.

Happy naturing.

[Bob S.]

I would like add to what Daz mentioned as medical reasons for mastubstion.

I was watching a TLC (The Learning Channel; a cable channel here in the US) that talked about human sexuality. The narrator said that masturbation acts as a cleansing process akin to a woman's period and if not done, or if a man does not have sexual intercourse, he will have "wet dreams" as a way to wash out the dated sperm.

Bob S.

[Gary Naturist]

It's interesting to reflect on how attitudes towards masturbation have changed over time, especially since AIDS became a problem in the 80s.

Parents used to say: My God, he's masturbating! (How do we deal with this?)

Now they say: Thank God he's masturbating. (Rather than screwing around.)

Gary

[Snoboy]

Gary Naturist -- you are right on with your comments about masturbation today and in years past. When I was a kid I had my faithful sock under the mattress...I found out recently that I forgot the sock on more than one occasion and the evidence was pitched in the trash. No wonder I had a problem with socks matching. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Ian ftlotlwc]

Hummmm religious opinion is said to be that masturbation is a sin, a temptation that Christains had to face from the devil. Has religion changed that much,I still have the same old bible and it doesnt say good things about masturbation.

Ian,

I don't know what Bible you read, but my King James doesn't even mention masturbation one way or the other. My dad used the story about Onan in the OT to scare me out of doing it as a teen.

To my understanding (which could be wrong), Onan was told by God to give his brother's widow a baby that would be raised as his brother's heir. The Bible says he "spilled his seed on the ground", and God killed him for his disobedience. I believe that he had sex with her and pulled out at the last minute. I don't believe this is referring to masturbation. Even if it is, God killed him for disobeying Him, not for masturbating.

I find it curious that God says having sex with someone to whom you're not married is a sin until He wants you to do it. Then it's OK with Him. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I find it curious that God says having sex with someone to whom you're not married is a sin until He wants you to do it. Then it's OK with Him. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mark Twain wrote a number of essays about "problems" with the Bible and religion. I am not an athiest per se, but here is a good excerpt from one of Twains writings. I think it puts the Bible in perspective pretty well. http://www.atheist-community.org/library/library_bible_teaching_and_religious_pra.htm

[Rik]

Brian,

Good article. It seems to me that some people choose to interpret the bible to fit with the way they live their lives, and then pretend to live their lives according to the bible. It begs the question: why not live your life as you see fit and use the energy you expend on interpreting the bible on something more valuable?

Rik

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Brian,

Good article. It seems to me that some people choose to interpret the bible to fit with the way they live their lives, and then pretend to live their lives according to the bible. It begs the question: why not live your life as you see fit and use the energy you expend on interpreting the bible on something more valuable?

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, I have not read much of twains stuff, but he has said something about almost everything. Check out http://www.twainquotes.com/nudity.html it seems he may have been a closet nudist perhaps.

[Croydon]

God you "christians" make me laugh w/ your ideas and views and trying to tell us "the bible says so." It makes me laugh so loud to see "christians" interpret the bible in their own liking to further make them feel their views are right.

[Rik]

Well all I can say is thank God I'm an atheist. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rik

[Snoboy]

I would appreciate it if you would not lable all Christian people under one hat. I do not agree with your belief system either, but I do not slander your value system. In the Forum can we please respect one another. If you do not agree with someone that is fine and respected, but do not place the values (Christian, Jewish, Islam) of another belief system on the chopping block and attack people because you do not agree with them. We are in difficult times and war is possible any day. We need to lift one another up. Agree to disagree but do not cause harm. As a Christian man, I was hurt by your comments but I forgive your lack of tact and wish you well.

It was a joke....get over it.

[Snoboy]

What do you mean by "Get over it". It may not have bothered you but it certainly bothered me and I would wager it troubled others as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Bob S.]

Snoboy, Notice that Croydon put the word christian in quottion marks. He was not lumping all Christians under one hat, but rather criticizing those who use the Bible to further their cause by interpreting it so that it matches their own views.

Bob S.

[Snoboy]

Bob S.-- Thanks for clarifying that for me. I was not able to see that, but if that is in fact what it means, then I will unruffle my feathers. I just don't want Christian people to be put in a box. I agree that some individuals go way out on a limb with there theological "theories". Frankly, I think it is better to leave, religion, politics, and sex out of the forum because it tends to ruffle feathers and who wants to read long essays from individuals on a soapbox.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoboy:
Frankly, I think it is better to leave, religion, politics, and sex out of the forum because it tends to ruffle feathers and who wants to read long essays from individuals on a soapbox. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ruffling feathers is good and healthy provided it does not descend into individual abuse. It encourages people to think and talk about their own convictions, beliefs, philosophies and may stir them to defend the things which they hold close to their hearts. It may even cause them to modify their own views but as a minimum it will help them understand their fellow humans.

I'll get off my soapbox now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[florida-david]

this has been a long post. maybe we need a poll which questions wether we are allowed to start masturbating again or will the religious extremists ban me from self-satisfaction?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoboy:
Bob S.-- Thanks for clarifying that for me. I was not able to see that, but if that is in fact what it means, then I will unruffle my feathers. I just don't want Christian people to be put in a box. I agree that some individuals go way out on a limb with there theological "theories". Frankly, I think it is better to leave, religion, politics, and sex out of the forum because it tends to ruffle feathers and who wants to read long essays from individuals on a soapbox. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You posted right after Rik's post and didn't quote back so I had to assume you were referring to what Rik posted. Turns out you weren't. As for the poor christians being put out, look at some of the older threads on this board and see how the christians trashed the wiccans.

[wannabenaked2001]

Why do we need to "bash" any group. I think it is helpfull to exchange our thoughts and beliefs to better understand eachother. If we could listen to one another with out "bashing", we just might discover we have more in common than not.

I am Catholic, but I am courious about the Jewish and Islamic religions, because we do seem to have soo much in common in our basic beliefs and in our history. As for the Wiccans, I am also courious. My very simple understanding is that this religion is centered around the Earth and forces of nature. As someone who lives on this planet, I belive the Earth and nature are to be respected and cared for as living things, and that as a Christian, the Earth and all of nature is a gift from God.

Atheism, well I am reaching here, but perhaps one may be able to realize that the basics of nearly all religions teach us how to live and to interact with others in peace. I do admitt, that many people get hung up on what I call the "smaller details" (ie what do we call our creator, or what is a sin, how to dress or what to eat on any given day) and these details or differences have been and excuse for killing (witch is condemmed in all the religions I am aware of) through-out all of history.

Listen and learn, or at least, agree to disagree.

Just my two cents.

[wannabenaked2001]

One more thought,

I think sex and religion DO have a place on this forum, as they are both really big reasons why mainstream society has difficulty accepting nudity. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jochanaan]

I appreciate Jon-Marc pointing out that the "sin of Onan" wasn't masturbation. It's unreasonable to believe that, with a willing woman available, Onan would have engaged in solitary gratification. Coitus interruptus, certainly!

Remember, too, that masturbation is not sexual intercourse, since intercourse, sexual or otherwise, by definition involves two or more people. Therefore masturbation is not included with Biblically proscribed sexual acts. But common sense would reason that if an activity becomes so excessive it interferes with your life (including married life), it should be reduced or eliminated.

A final comment, taken from an ad on a local bus: "Monogamy is not Monotony." /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif