Crushed By Debt

[Sanslines]

Crushed by Debt

Two days ago at 3 am, my husband and I were awoken by the repo man coming to get our vehicle. I have so much credit card debt that I will probably file bankruptcy. I am so sick of our society and having to have "things."

Sure it's nice to have a vehicle that is nice and new, but at what cost? When I come to the end of my life, am I really going to care about all of the crap that I possessed? I want to lead a simple life. I want to drive a piece of crap car because it will be paid for and no one can come knocking on my door and take it from me!

I try to lead a simple life. I don't shop very much etc. But, somehow I eventually get wrapped back up in all the consumerism. I guess it's because, if you are born in a rich country, it is shoved down your throat 24/7 all your life. It is a hard habit to break.

We all want everything now. Our society is focused on immediate gratification. We wouldn't want to save money and then pay cash for what we need! Oh no! Why do that when you can get instant credit. Then we can have what we want NOW.

I have almost 23,000 worth of credit card debt and I couldn't tell you what I bought. Isn't that sick?

America has a health care crisis. People can't afford to go to the doctor when they get cancer from all the pesticides and antibiotics that our government puts in our food. But, we never hear about that do we? How about the pesticides that coffee growers use that are banned in the U.S.? But, it's okay to import beans from countries where it isn't banned.
I wish I could disappear from this society. I don't want anymore "instant credit" or pre-approved card offers. My mind and life are filled with 'how are we going to pay this or that." I can't answer the phone. God forbid it's a bill collector. Why do we do this to ourselves?

If a kid is lucky enough to have both his parents under one roof, he never sees them. Both parents work their asses off. Why? so we can buy more things. Then we wonder why the divorce rate is so high and the kids are killing each other.

I could go on and on. I think it's time to do some real soul searching. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Planet/correspond2.htm



The New Anti-Consumerism

http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Planet/anticonsumer.htm


"Anti consumerism is anti American. To selfishly waste the planet's resources on an unquenchable thirst for bigger, better, faster at the expense of the planet and other people is the American way. To do otherwise is anti-American."

"After 9/11 President Bush's response was to go out and buy stuff. Is that really the solution to our problems, go out and buy more? It is a sick world if people actually think that consuming more will help them."

"We all need to stop and think why it is we are alive. No, its not about materials, its not about status, its not about busyness. Why are we so shallow, selfish, and self centered?"

[ki4kxq]

The above is precisely why Russ & I started following the Dave Ramsey way of life. The credit card accounts have long been cut up and closed. We use a budget and the envelope system. When our friends bought brand new semi tractors, they laughed when we bought one 4 years old with 500k miles already on it. We now laugh at their $3200 a month payment.

If you are not already a millionaire, you really cannot justify buying a new car, it goes down in value to much the first two years. Most millionaires buy slightly used cars. Oddly enough, most broke folks buy new. Go figure. Both of our vehicles were bought used.

Although, we have not finished our money makeover yet, we will be totally debt free by spring. However, we have been far less disciplined than most on this program, we should already be debt free.

Which brings me back to the health care debate. Yes we must pass regs that make ins companies pay claims as promised and cover pre-existing conditions. However, how many people who complain that they can't afford health insurance, have a $300 or higher car paymt each month? You see, we've been led to believe that we should be able to have it all. However, that is just a fantasy. We must make choices. Most of the time, these choices are uncomfortable and inconvenient.

[Sanslines]

Which brings me back to the health care debate. Yes we must pass regs that make ins companies pay claims as promised and cover pre-existing conditions. However, how many people who complain that they can't afford health insurance, have a $300 or higher car paymt each month? You see, we've been led to believe that we should be able to have it all. However, that is just a fantasy. We must make choices. Most of the time, these choices are uncomfortable and inconvenient.

The point about health care that you keep missing is that health care costs are going up at a rate of 10 to 20 percent per year. Health care is not an option for most people. People can not collectively just drop their health care coverage in the hopes that prices and premiums come crashing down as a result of doing this (like consumer goods would). Health care costs must be brought under some sort of control or else health costs will eventually bankrupt this nation just as they are bankrupting people today.

[riptidenj]

Consumerism is NOT mandatory, nobody puts a gun to your head and says you WILL buy and you WILL go into debt. I agree that too much seductive advertising can be hard to resist (unless, like me, you grew up reading Mad magazine and whenever you see and advertisment you immediately think of a parody) and too many things-home equity loans, e.g.-have been sold as Horns of Plenty and Aladdin's Lamp. I went through my consumerist phase years ago, although it was restricted by at that time a modest income
and cramped living quarters. In my case an MBA opened my eyes to the real nature of money and finance and I think a course on personal finance or at least reading several
books and getting the basics down-you can't spend more than you have, OK, you can today but you will have to pay for it sooner than you think -are EXTREMELY valuable. Sex Education has pretty much been established as a necessary part of the secondary schools curriculum, I think money is the next Taboo subject that must be addressed.
One thing I tell clients at the investing/money management firm I work at. When they ask
"What's the best way to make money?" I reply "Only the U.S. Mint and U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving actually MAKE money. Everyone else has to EARN it."
One way to satisfy consumerist urges is to become (as I have) a dedicated thrift shop/yard/rummage/estate sale hound. You will find you are purchasing quality items at DEEP discounts.

[maliakei]

The credit card accounts have long been cut up and closed. We use a budget and the envelope system. When our friends bought brand new semi tractors, they laughed when we bought one 4 years old with 500k miles already on it. We now laugh at their $3200 a month payment.

If you are not already a millionaire, you really cannot justify buying a new car, it goes down in value to much the first two years. Most millionaires buy slightly used cars. Oddly enough, most broke folks buy new. Go figure. Both of our vehicles were bought used.

Although, we have not finished our money makeover yet, we will be totally debt free by spring. However, we have been far less disciplined than most on this program, we should already be debt free.

Great! I never had a new car either, nor did I ever want one. I'll bet they're not laughing anymore.

I am SO GLAD and SO THANKFUL for my parents. Our family was often made fun of too because we never bought anything new. We only had one car, an old beat up station wagon. We also had an old-fashioned washing machine, wore second-hand clothes, and rarely dined out. So what? We had something better that $$$ couldn't buy and that was being happy and loved. If we needed money then we had to work for it. There was no such thing as getting free allowance.

While the neighbors had the latest everything and busy keeping up with the Jones', we managed to live within our small budget, working hard (& smart). It wasn't easy being poor (financially), but we did alright. Besides we were debt free. Thank God for my parents. One of the BEST things any parent can do for their children is to teach them the importance of working hard (& smart), saving & spending wisely.

Money can't buy happiness, and too many folks fail to realize it. Who cares about new cars, new furniture, new house, new clothes, dining out at fancy restaurants! It's so important for kids to be taught early on. A piggy bank. A kids savings account. A fine start.

[maliakei]

One way to satisfy consumerist urges is to become (as I have) a dedicated thrift shop/yard/rummage/estate sale hound. You will find you are purchasing quality items at DEEP discounts.

Excellent! That's what I do too. There are some good finds doing that.

[Sanslines]

Money can't buy happiness, and too many folks fail to realize it. Who cares about new cars, new furniture, new house, new clothes, dining out at fancy restaurants! It's so important for kids to be taught early on. A piggy bank. A kids savings account. A fine start.

Money can rent a storage space at one of the numerous storage facilites that are growing by leaps and bounds. Those storage spaces are not cheap and yet the demand for them outstrips supply.

[Smiley]

The way I was raised was that if you didn't absolutely need something, you didn't buy it. If it was something that was needed, then you budgeted to get whatever it was that was needed. If it was something you merely wanted and didn't have the money, you just admired it but didn't buy it.

[maliakei]

Money can rent a storage space at one of the numerous storage facilites that are growing by leaps and bounds. Those storage spaces are not cheap and yet the demand for them outstrips supply.

True, and with supply and demand raises the cost to rent one. The good part is having a storage rental unit to use in-between moves. I'm sure alot of people who have lost their homes or jobs are doing that. I knew someone who just had alot of stuff, then one day figured he was better off selling most of those things on eBay than to keep paying monthly storage costs. He was glad to do it, and told me it felt like a heavy burden was finally lifted.


The way I was raised was that if you didn't absolutely need something, you didn't buy it. If it was something that was needed, then you budgeted to get whatever it was that was needed. If it was something you merely wanted and didn't have the money, you just admired it but didn't buy it.

Kudos to you!

[Kouak]

We had a large indoor storage unit once. It was always a hassle to schedule when we could go their to get stuff. Cost a pretty penny each year too. I maintained that we could give all of the stuff away and buy it later with the savings. I lost that battle.

Luckily, they found a buyer who like the facility so they closed down. I used the opportunity to move everything back to the garage. (Still could not sell it or give it away.) At least now we don't have to pay someone to store the stuff we don't need anymore!

[maliakei]

We had a large indoor storage unit once. It was always a hassle to schedule when we could go their to get stuff. Cost a pretty penny each year too. I maintained that we could give all of the stuff away and buy it later with the savings. I lost that battle.

Luckily, they found a buyer who like the facility so they closed down. I used the opportunity to move everything back to the garage. (Still could not sell it or give it away.) At least now we don't have to pay someone to store the stuff we don't need anymore!


Good idea. If you have items you never want to give up then it makes more sense to store it at your own house for free! I used to save everything until one day decided to make 4 piles: Keep, Donate, Sell, Toss. The donated pile was the biggest with books & clothes to charity. Sometimes it's hard parting with our stuff. For me sentimental value is the biggest reason.

[David77]

I used the opportunity to move everything back to the garage. (Still could not sell it or give it away.) At least now we don't have to pay someone to store the stuff we don't need anymore!

I hope that I don't have to move anything back to my garage as I could hardly get thru the garage then because of all the stull. My storage fee is $57. a month and near my house. The person listed in my will can hopefully find byers for this stuff then.

[JoseO42]

Hardest thing for some people is to learn to live within their means. Sure it is nice to have the latest and greatest but except for rare circumstances, we usually do not need it. My first car last 13 years and then it broke down so I replaced it with a new one that is now 5 1/2 years old. I just keep it well maintained and hopefully it will last as long as my prior one. I do not need to keep buying a new one.

My computer is the same way. It was only have my laptop broke down after 4 years of use last year that I finally replaced it with the computer I have now. I could have probably bought a more expensive model but I got what I basically needed and could afford.

Except for my mortgage, I am debt free.

[maliakei]

Hardest thing for some people is to learn to live within their means. Sure it is nice to have the latest and greatest but except for rare circumstances, we usually do not need it. My first car last 13 years and then it broke down so I replaced it with a new one that is now 5 1/2 years old. I just keep it well maintained and hopefully it will last as long as my prior one. I do not need to keep buying a new one.

My computer is the same way. It was only have my laptop broke down after 4 years of use last year that I finally replaced it with the computer I have now. I could have probably bought a more expensive model but I got what I basically needed and could afford.

Except for my mortgage, I am debt free.

Some of us certainly do learn the hard way! I admire anyone who is able to take control and be responsible with spending. And I also realize how difficult it is also to save after suffering job loss so we have to figure out other ways to minimize debt.

[Steve78621]

I keep my vehicles long after they are paid off, it has really helped me over the years to not have to make a monthly payment. I have watched friends who go from one vehicle to another spend year after year making payments and never having a paid off vehicle. I live in a small house, just under a thousand square feet. I built it myself on land I paid cash for. It was lot of work, I built it while I was working full time. It was one of the best things I have ever done for myself. Now I only have to pay my property taxes, no monthly payments.
I tell people to just get good at saying no. If you don't need it, just say no and walk away. If I'm out and see something that gets my attention, but I don't need, I just tell myself I'll come back later for it. I never do and I save money by not making an impulsive purchase.
I'm convinced that all this debt is one of the largest problems of our country.

[Sanslines]

I hope that I don't have to move anything back to my garage as I could hardly get thru the garage then because of all the stull. My storage fee is $57. a month and near my house. The person listed in my will can hopefully find byers for this stuff then.

My friend's brother is a consumate pack rat. he is addicted to accumulating things. Every weekend, he goes to various garage sales just to buy more things that he absolutely does not need. His house is overloaded with his junk. He probably has a storage unit somewhere but he won't admit this to anyone. He stores stuff in his g/f's garage against the protests of her. He bought an RV and filled it with stuff.

No doubt he will leave all of this stuff to his heirs and his heirs will have an enormous job of cleaning up the mess. His heirs have already told him that it is completely unfair to leave such a mess behind for others to clean up but this man just doesn't seem to care. What a mess!

[David77]

He stores stuff in his g/f's garage against the protests of her. He bought an RV and filled it with stuff.

No doubt he will leave all of this stuff to his heirs and his heirs will have an enormous job of cleaning up the mess. His heirs have already told him that it is completely unfair to leave such a mess behind for others to clean up but this man just doesn't seem to care. What a mess!

Before my wife died in 2001, she commented a number of times that I would have a terrible time cleaning out the garage and getting rid of all of her junk. I found that she was so right in her statement. I took a lot of stuff for charity contribution and then had a huge garage sale which netted me around $2,000 for mostly craft material.

My friend who has lived with me for the last two years, lost his house in California. Before he moved to our area, he stored stuff in a couple of storage lockers there, also in a barn and at friend's houses there. He also has a storage locker here. He brought his grand piano here (now in the living room) on a small trailer made for moving pianos. He is still in a quandary as to what to do with the stuff stored in California.

He is a piano tuner and piano repair specialist and specializes in player pianos. After we cleared out my garage, he was able to put his shop machines and several pianos in the garage. He also has several pianos in his storage locker here, as well as having several pianos in storage in California. I am certainly not complaining as he is a great help to me.

[David77]

Maybe this may be of benefit to those who are deeply in debt.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=9EWlSoXVIZXiMZOGheQP&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Counselors+for+getting+out+of+debt&spell=1

[Aero]

My taiming of consumerism started when I started reading http://www.getrichslowly.org (odly enouph I was searching for "get rich quick at the time) and following his tail of how he concured debt.

He has a good list of links from around the world http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2008/11/27/personal-finance-sites-from-around-the-world-2008-edition/ that will help out thoes of us in other countries.

[Sanslines]

Before my wife died in 2001, she commented a number of times that I would have a terrible time cleaning out the garage and getting rid of all of her junk. I found that she was so right in her statement. I took a lot of stuff for charity contribution and then had a huge garage sale which netted me around $2,000 for mostly craft material.


I helped a couple of friends move across town recently. When I arrived at their house, virtually nothing was packed. They had rented a small U-Haul van. I would have to say that at least 60 percent of what they had was pure junk. This junk consisted of piles of old magazines, books, outdated electronic and computer gadgets, piles of old clothes, etc. The cleanout should have begun long before this move. They originally thought that they would hire a couple of guys for a couple of hours from the rental company but that cost proved to be prohibitive. Had they actually hired those guys, they would have gone bankrupt doing so (literally speaking).
Most people just do not realize how much stuff they have until moving day comes. They they pay the price for being packrats.

You might suggest to your friend that he sell his stuff in California, stop paying for rental spaces, and use the money that eh will save to go and lay on a nice, warm sunny beach in the South Pacific for a while. he might take you up on this offer.

[David77]

You might suggest to your friend that he sell his stuff in California, stop paying for rental spaces, and use the money that eh will save to go and lay on a nice, warm sunny beach in the South Pacific for a while. he might take you up on this offer.

Sounds good, but I have no savings and my income is not great enough for any big expense, and he is trying to pay off many debts. He would not go without his girlfriend and she has just gone back to work after being unemployed for two years because of serious illness, and she could not afford a vacation in the South Pacific.
To use your term, if I went, I would then be "crushed by debt" by laying on the beach in the South Pacific. I will just stick to travelogues on TV.

[Sanslines]

Sounds good, but I have no savings and my income is not great enough for any big expense, and he is trying to pay off many debts. He would not go without his girlfriend and she has just gone back to work after being unemployed for two years because of serious illness, and she could not afford a vacation in the South Pacific.
To use your term, if I went, I would then be "crushed by debt" by laying on the beach in the South Pacific. I will just stick to travelogues on TV.

Oh No, I wasn't suggesting that you head to the South Pacific. The point that I really was trying to make was that your friend can make a great deal of money from selling his pianos and other assorted items and would no longer have to pay for storage in California.

[David77]

Oh No, I wasn't suggesting that you head to the South Pacific. The point that I really was trying to make was that your friend can make a great deal of money from selling his pianos and other assorted items and would no longer have to pay for storage in California.

Yeah, he has been thinking about selling at least some of his stuff in storage in California since he has decided that he never wants to move back to California, as property is too expensive there (but relatively cheap here), and since he has bad vibes from loosing his house there, and he has found a wonderful girlfriend here.

[usuallylurk]

Crushed by Debt


I have almost 23,000 worth of credit card debt and I couldn't tell you what I bought. Isn't that sick?



I grew up in a city that had its economy go down the drain. In the 1950s, my family was very well off. However, they had a family-owned business, and not only did the business go sour after the city's economy tanked -- and after 60 years --but my father and his brothers had over-extended themselves trying to keep the failing business going.

When I entered high school, we kept our home - but we were POOR. We rode in rolling junk cars, couldn't take vacations, and it was embarrassing. Finally, my Dad landed a job as a schoolteacher, my mother a clerk for a governmental agency, and we were at least making money again. The ship was righted again.

I can recall eating cereal for breakfast for the whole week, and my mother bought a huge canned ham -- and we ate that ham and nothing else for a week.

It taught me to be frugal. Even today -- mrs lurk and I have been empty nesters for 14 years -- before we make a big purchase, we THINK about it. We do have some luxuries; we take a vacation to Florida every year, we have membership in a landed club, and we do eat well (probably too well) but the key is = DO NOT SPEND MORE THAN YOU MAKE.

As a result, we're not tied down to material things, we do not owe anyone a penny, and any time something major comes up, there's no problem paying for it. Right now we are facing a major home improvement project and are figuring out how to pay for it. We will go (slightly) into debt, but also have enough to cover it, so it eseentially will be an all-cash project.

Also, it carries over into your working life. If you are not up to your eyeballs in debt, your employer must deal with you differently. It's difficult for them to threaten you, because being out of a job won't break your back. You garner more respect, and life is easier.

Now, there's nothing wrong with taking an *affordable* mortgage, or even a car loan , but, the important thing is not to get "underwater." I have taught my adult daughter that, and she and her husband are on their way to living well (and right).

The Dave Ramsey plan -- he's not the first one to tell you to escape debt and how to do it. As much as I don't care for his politics, Pat Robertson also had the pledge = "I will be = DEBT FREE." Many years ago.

Sometimes it's avoidable, but if you can be debt free -- it's a good way to go.

I guess the best experience we ever had, was when a couple came over for a pleasant dinner evening and a soak in the hot tub. This was, oh, 20 years ago. The lady asked mrs. lurk, "Hey, how do you keep the bill collectors at bay?" She replied "easy enough.... lurk makes a little more money than we spend."

Give me a beer, a steak on the grill, and a ball game on TV, I'm happy.

PS, I have put around $1000 a month on the credit card but pay it off = gasoline and groceries.

[maliakei]

My taiming of consumerism started when I started reading http://www.getrichslowly.org (odly enouph I was searching for "get rich quick at the time) and following his tail of how he concured debt.

He has a good list of links from around the world http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2008/11/27/personal-finance-sites-from-around-the-world-2008-edition/ that will help out thoes of us in other countries.

Thanks Aero, and David77 for the helpful links.

[maliakei]

UsuallyLurk, Excellent post! Many of us who grow up with nothing, that forces us to be more resourceful, and more appreciative of having earned the money to buy something. Yeah, the embarrassment & teasing.. I remember those days having to eat the same food everyday, but my mother invented all kinds of recipes for variety..

On the extreme, the times I'd flip through TV channels, stumbling upon talk shows about compulsive shoppers. I get real irked whenever guests appear giggling about how they can't stop their spending addiction! I didn't change the channel because I was trying to understand the absurdity, the mentality of it all, and all they did was just shrug their shoulders smiling like it's funny. On national TV, have they no shame about their crazy spending habits? In fact, one guest figured she could just declare bankruptcy and make a fresh start. Yeah, and at OUR expense!! Good thing TV doesn't allow viewers to jump in, and if so, then we'd want to shake some sense, bet they wouldn't be smiling about it anymore!

Now this is by NO means to say everybody in debt is that way, it's the kind who write & forge bad checks, steal other people's identity, thinking they can get away with it.

Being in debt is really a heavy burden, and many responsible folks are learning the expensive way.

[richinoregon]

The above is precisely why Russ & I started following the Dave Ramsey way of life. The credit card accounts have long been cut up and closed. We use a budget and the envelope system. When our friends bought brand new semi tractors, they laughed when we bought one 4 years old with 500k miles already on it. We now laugh at their $3200 a month payment.

If you are not already a millionaire, you really cannot justify buying a new car, it goes down in value to much the first two years. Most millionaires buy slightly used cars. Oddly enough, most broke folks buy new. Go figure. Both of our vehicles were bought used.

Although, we have not finished our money makeover yet, we will be totally debt free by spring. However, we have been far less disciplined than most on this program, we should already be debt free.

Which brings me back to the health care debate. Yes we must pass regs that make ins companies pay claims as promised and cover pre-existing conditions. However, how many people who complain that they can't afford health insurance, have a $300 or higher car paymt each month? You see, we've been led to believe that we should be able to have it all. However, that is just a fantasy. We must make choices. Most of the time, these choices are uncomfortable and inconvenient.

We aren't anywhere near crushed by debt, in fact by compared to the average American we are pretty debt free (Mortgage, Home improvement loan, and car payment is all we have), but when we started following Dave Ramsey's system we were amazed at how much money we had been just frittering away every month. As he says 'if you don't manage your money it will manage you.'

[David77]

When you get to the age of 62, remember that you can get a reverse mortgage which you will never have to repay any on, so long as you are living in your home.

[Sanslines]

Also, it carries over into your working life. If you are not up to your eyeballs in debt, your employer must deal with you differently. It's difficult for them to threaten you, because being out of a job won't break your back. You garner more respect, and life is easier.


The amazing thing is that many people are up to their eyeballs in debt yet don't seem to realize that they don't have to be. It seems to take a bit of an outcast type of person to go against the national grain and mantra - buy more, spend more, shop til you drop!

Of course the working poor are a different story. One of the amazing facts about the working poor is that given what little they have in the first place, they still give an enormous amount of their money to charity.

[NudeAl]

American consumerism is our relgion and has been for decades. We are constantly told via every media you care to name that we are worthless unless we have the newest most expensive flashiest piece of crap on the market. It has really gone over the edge and we are seeing the ultimate result of such a lifeyle.

A far smarter man than I once said the more possessions you have the more they possess you.

I have been downsizing my economic foot print since I retired from the military. I am looking ahead toward the time when my son will leave home and it will just be me and the wife. One of my possible choices is selling the house and most of my belongings ad buying a large RV and moving in to a nudist resort. At my club, Kaniksu Ranch, one of the other members and I were talking about how great a value we had in our club, for under $1000 a season and figuring in club membership, AANR dues, and a annual camp site fee, even food if you cook it in your RV you can enjoy an entire summer here. Sounds good to me sign me up, only kicker is we would not want to try to remain there for the winter so that would mean becoming snowbirds and migrating south each year around this time here again not so bad. Recently a big issue for the wife is her hatred for snow and winter in general. Add to that the fact that our grandchildren are in the SoCal area and she has a burning desire to see them. I am smiling a HUGE smile as I type this, she actually suggested we move into DeAnza Springs wow! Well time will tell, for now I am happy having a membership at my local club and am resigned to the fact that it will be another long hard winter. Ah well maybe next year.

[BinCo]

I'm going to buck the trend here on this one. We can't all buy used stuff. At some point it has to be someone buying it new.

I always buy brand new cars. The reason? I usually put well over 200,000 miles on them before they start to fall apart in 10-15 years. I can't deal with some moron who had a lease car for two years that never changed the oil or rotated the tires or bothered to open the hood. Add those cars to the seemingly endless number of rental sales ( and I know how people drive rental cars ) and the decision is simple. Over time the warranty and peace of mind knowing that I am the one responsible for my car or truck is worth it to me. But, I'm an engineer, so I really can tell when something is starting to be goofy with my car. My truck is in need of front end ball joints next week and I'll be dropping a cool $1k for it. But, in 225k miles I have had to replace the tranny, starter, some driveshaft seals and now the ball joints. But, buying a used car is a crap shoot, depending on how the little old lady that only drove it in good weather, on Sundays, to church, took care of it.

As far as consumerism. My wife makes up for my stinginess. But, we don't have a surround sound on our 1 TV in the house that we bought when my 19 yr old JC Penney died. We don't buy into a lot of the crap that most people do, and certainly not as much as the neighbors. I can't count the toys some of these guys have. 5th wheel RV, Boat, 2-4ATV's, motorcycles, 52" LCD tv with full surround and flat screens for each of the kids rooms. It's a wonder to me. But, I have my vice. My woodworking vice actually. Hi, My name is BinCO an I'm a wood-a-holic.

[Bluetaylor]

I'll put in a few cents - laugh or cry.


In debt because of going out to buy "stuff"? There is nothing wrong with buying stuff within your means. A lot of credit card debt is from mis-management and interest charges that grows and gets out of control.

The problem is that we do not make "stuff" in this country anymore and thats a big issue. It is getting harder to find something that is not made in China - and many times there is no choice. China has us by the nads and all they have to do is squeeze until we cripple. It is sad. We import so many things from China, but what does China sell that the US makes exported? It is so unballanced and far from fair. How do you even protect your country if manufacturing doesn't stay within? Those Bleep'in bleep have it all backwards offering rebates on "stuff" as a purchase incentive when the person that bites on the incentave only goes into debt further. Get serious manufacturing and steel work back in this country and offer jobs instead of rebates.


Healthcare: Thank your lawyers and judges for the root of the problem of high cost growing at a rate of 10-20% a yr as posted earlier here. The insurance companies have partial blame too - they are greedy too. I even heard a radio advertisement today something about having a "untimely" C section and your child has a deformity to call the lawyers at bleep .. when someone can win a huge dollar claim for being clumsey (like spilling hot coffee on themselves) something is wrong - rewarding someone for being irresponsible and clumbsy?? I just don't get it and sick of it. Doctors have to do a lot of "unnessary testing" or whatever just to keep a lawyer off their back which adds to treatment cost. Nobody takes responsibility for themselves anymore, it's always blame others. Anyway, this new growing government, the majority of the people voted, in wants to be your doctor now and turn everything into a Government hospital.

[Ken Palmer]

Hello Sanslines. I am in 100% agreement with you on this. I too was in incredible credit card debt myself years back. I was forced to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy to eliminate the credit card debt. I got in over my head in spending just as you did. That was in 1996. I think my debt amount was in excess of $15,000 or $20,000. I too was caught up in the mad social spending patterns. Also, I have a lot of friends who are in higher income brackets and it is very easy to be influenced by merely seeing what they own or observing how they spend their money. I guess you can say you kind of "want what they have" even though you know you can't afford it. I also became somewhat obsessed with their lifestyle along with their quality of life. That is what is called "getting in over your head." Yes, it is extreme hard not to be engulfed in the consumerism you mentioned. One thing about me is I have never owned a brand new car in my life. Also, I always paid cash for my cars since they were used. My problem was creditors calling me both at home and at my job. The latter one was what really got me in trouble. My supervisors were becoming irritated because they wouldn't leave their names when they called and only their return telephone numbers. Since most of them were toll-free, they knew what kind of calls they were.

I just want to give my personal sentiments to you because as you can see, I have literally been down the same road you have. And filing for bankruptcy really screws up your credit scenario for at least seven to ten years. Punishment! Like you said, our society drums into your head that you must compete with the Jones' and have everything right now. The notion of saving for anything is sadly becoming obsolete thinking nowadays. This is sad because this is the way I grew up and was raised. But I strayed from that path back in 1996 and paid a hefty price for it. I have even heard people make the statement "I am happily in debt!" For some reason, it is encouraged and makes no sense to me. I guess we are just spend-happy creatures! Regardless of all of this, I had no one to blame but myself. And all those people who practically encouraged you to go out there and spend like crazy will never lend one helping hand to you when you get in trouble. I wish you the very best of luck in your situation.

Ken Palmer





Crushed by Debt

Two days ago at 3 am, my husband and I were awoken by the repo man coming to get our vehicle. I have so much credit card debt that I will probably file bankruptcy. I am so sick of our society and having to have "things."

Sure it's nice to have a vehicle that is nice and new, but at what cost? When I come to the end of my life, am I really going to care about all of the crap that I possessed? I want to lead a simple life. I want to drive a piece of crap car because it will be paid for and no one can come knocking on my door and take it from me!

I try to lead a simple life. I don't shop very much etc. But, somehow I eventually get wrapped back up in all the consumerism. I guess it's because, if you are born in a rich country, it is shoved down your throat 24/7 all your life. It is a hard habit to break.

We all want everything now. Our society is focused on immediate gratification. We wouldn't want to save money and then pay cash for what we need! Oh no! Why do that when you can get instant credit. Then we can have what we want NOW.

I have almost 23,000 worth of credit card debt and I couldn't tell you what I bought. Isn't that sick?

America has a health care crisis. People can't afford to go to the doctor when they get cancer from all the pesticides and antibiotics that our government puts in our food. But, we never hear about that do we? How about the pesticides that coffee growers use that are banned in the U.S.? But, it's okay to import beans from countries where it isn't banned.
I wish I could disappear from this society. I don't want anymore "instant credit" or pre-approved card offers. My mind and life are filled with 'how are we going to pay this or that." I can't answer the phone. God forbid it's a bill collector. Why do we do this to ourselves?

If a kid is lucky enough to have both his parents under one roof, he never sees them. Both parents work their asses off. Why? so we can buy more things. Then we wonder why the divorce rate is so high and the kids are killing each other.

I could go on and on. I think it's time to do some real soul searching. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Planet/correspond2.htm



The New Anti-Consumerism

http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Planet/anticonsumer.htm


"Anti consumerism is anti American. To selfishly waste the planet's resources on an unquenchable thirst for bigger, better, faster at the expense of the planet and other people is the American way. To do otherwise is anti-American."

"After 9/11 President Bush's response was to go out and buy stuff. Is that really the solution to our problems, go out and buy more? It is a sick world if people actually think that consuming more will help them."

"We all need to stop and think why it is we are alive. No, its not about materials, its not about status, its not about busyness. Why are we so shallow, selfish, and self centered?"

[MoonShadow]

There is nothing wrong with consumerism. Our economy needs it in order to keep it afloat and to keep people employed. The problem is as noted in earlier posts, over-extending one's means. You can consume without getting into debt. You buy what you can afford to buy and this includes saving for the big ticket items. It may take you a year or two to get that big ticket item but at least when you do, it is not going to raise your debt or get you into debt. Furthermore, when you pay cash for something you can usually negotiate the price on many items. Retailers or sellers prefer cash and if you have it when you go to purchase you can sometimes negotiate a better deal (cars are a prime example).

I am not for anti-consumerism at all. I am for buying within your financial means and this mean without incurring debt.

[Sanslines]

Responsible consumerism - general information

REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE

The next time you're thinking of buying a new product, consider the Three Rs - reduce, reuse, recycle.
* Do you really need to buy a new product - can you borrow or rent it, or do fine without it?
* Can you repair your old one?
* If it really is broken beyond repair, how can you recycle it?
* If your old product is still working but you don't need it any more, could someone else find it useful? Can you reduce its environmental impact by giving it to someone else or selling it, rather than throwing it away? (THE WASTEBOOK might be able to help here!)
The humble lettuce has emerged as the UK's number one waste item, with 61% of households throwing a soggy one away each week. If you're one, find a way not to do this ! Britons waste up to £80bn a year on food that goes off and clothes that are never worn, a Prudential survey has indicated. Clearly people with no access to a compost heap or allotment, and no kitchen waste collection, need to better served by their local authority. Reuse or recycling of clothes also needs to be made easier and outlets promoted.
The survey of 2000 adults said that young single males are the worst offenders. At the other end of the scale, older females squander the least, following the maxim "waste not, want not". The survey said men waste on average £240 more each year than women. The most common reaction to waste, by both sexes, was to say it did not bother them. Nearly a third of respondents were untroubled by waste, with just 16% admitting to a pang of guilt. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3752745.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3752745.stm)


So what can we do?

The real challenge is to promote more thoughtful forms of consumerism - concern with quality of life rather than mass consumption, satisfying needs with minimal use of resources, and at a wider social level, reducing the need for travel and energy consumption (this should also be done at a personal level!), and eliminating wasted resources in all fields of human activity wherever possible. If the whole world consumed as much as the average UK citizen, we would need about three planets!

The campaigning group ‘Enough’ has sought to raise awareness of the disturbing aspects of consumerism by organising events such as ‘shopping free zones’ in the middle of frenetic shopping areas.

With runaway climate change, it is now vital to change our wasteful habits. We must buy less. Simple examples: Reusing and buying recycled products, with minimal packaging (refuse carrier bags at the till, and always carry 2 sturdy bags of your own); buying things to last; choosing local and fairly traded goods; growing our own fruit and veg, and buying organically grown produce; and purchasing and investing ethically. We demonstrate practical steps in the right direction throughout this directory.

http://www.wastebook.org/respons.htm

[Sanslines]

There is nothing wrong with consumerism. Our economy needs it in order to keep it afloat and to keep people employed. The problem is as noted in earlier posts, over-extending one's means. You can consume without getting into debt. You buy what you can afford to buy and this includes saving for the big ticket items. It may take you a year or two to get that big ticket item but at least when you do, it is not going to raise your debt or get you into debt. Furthermore, when you pay cash for something you can usually negotiate the price on many items. Retailers or sellers prefer cash and if you have it when you go to purchase you can sometimes negotiate a better deal (cars are a prime example).

I am not for anti-consumerism at all. I am for buying within your financial means and this mean without incurring debt.

There is plenty wrong with mass consuming enormous quantities of goods, many of which are uneeded, and closing one's eyes to the destruction that this creates for the environment. Such mass consumerism is completely unsustainable for it would take the resources of four planet earths to keep the present consumption rater going. There is far too much waste as our ever growing landfills clearly show.

The american rate of mass consumerism will continue to decrease as the rest of the world increases their standards of living and demand more goods. Prices will inevitable rise and this will cause the american standard of living to continue to drop. America better wake up fast and find a better way to build it's economy. Mass consumerism is a guaranteed way to cause global catastrophe in so many ways (as global warming is showing now).

[MoonShadow]

Sanslines, I am for responsible consumerism. There is nothing wrong with consumerism if it is done responsibly and that means you buy what you need or want provided the latter doesn't end up being stored somewhere in your home or on your property not being used. This is waste. I support fully donating items no longer wanted, or to sell, or to give to someone who could use it. Items that no longer work or are beyond repair need to be recycled.

[usuallylurk]

There is plenty wrong with mass consuming enormous quantities of goods, many of which are uneeded, and closing one's eyes to the destruction that this creates for the environment. Such mass consumerism is completely unsustainable for it would take the resources of four planet earths to keep the present consumption rater going. There is far too much waste as our ever growing landfills clearly show.

The american rate of mass consumerism will continue to decrease as the rest of the world increases their standards of living and demand more goods. Prices will inevitable rise and this will cause the american standard of living to continue to drop. America better wake up fast and find a better way to build it's economy. Mass consumerism is a guaranteed way to cause global catastrophe in so many ways (as global warming is showing now).

mrslurk is beginning to get on my case regaring "dejunking" my home, of 32 years, of, well, CRAP.

On the other hand, our way of life in North America is envied by the rest of the world... most in developing countries would love to live the way we do, and in many of these countries -- India, China, Brazil , to name three -- they are headed in that direction.

malakii - yes, if you've ever been forced to live "close to the belt", it has an effect as to what you want, how you will live, etc. Lao-Tzu once said "He who knows when enough is enough - will always have enough." Growing up in dire straits, and then going through the "flower child" age -- I don't have as many material things, but I sure am comfortable.

[Sanslines]

mrslurk is beginning to get on my case regaring "dejunking" my home, of 32 years, of, well, CRAP.

On the other hand, our way of life in North America is envied by the rest of the world... most in developing countries would love to live the way we do, and in many of these countries -- India, China, Brazil , to name three -- they are headed in that direction.

I have met so many foreign tourists who have this 'idea' about the USA. This 'idea' is a Hollywood manufactured illusion that promotes a fantasy life that exists for only a few in thie nation. Most who have visited here are sadly disappointed. The streets are not paved with gold, but more accurately full of potholes. The Los Angeles freeway system is gridlocked for ever increasing periods of time. Our infrastructure is crumbling from years of neglect. Our cities have far too much violent crime. We have a large number of citizens who can not afford basic health care and are dying from it. We have an ever increasing number of people who are falling into poverty. It is true that the (few) rich are getting richer, but the majority of people are growing poorer. If this is what the world envies, then they can have it.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines, I am for responsible consumerism. There is nothing wrong with consumerism if it is done responsibly and that means you buy what you need or want provided the latter doesn't end up being stored somewhere in your home or on your property not being used. This is waste. I support fully donating items no longer wanted, or to sell, or to give to someone who could use it. Items that no longer work or are beyond repair need to be recycled.

In today's world American consumerism means purchasing items made in China. A few American business people (corporations) make millions from profits of these items and are exploiting cheap Chinese labor. In spite of this, the Chinese will work and build their nation from our purchase of their items. Our consumerism no longer benefits our nation, as so few items are produced here.

Around here I support dairy farmers. They work very hard producing milk for milk and dairy product consumption. Yet, in spite of their hard work, they get paid very little for their efforts. They get paid so little in fact that many are either receiving government support of one form or another (dairy price support, food stamps, etc). The price of milk is not particularly cheap. So where does all of the money go? It goes to middle men (stores and corporations) who make enormous amounts of money from the sweat of others. The government adds to this exploitation by allowing the middle men to exploit the farmers. Instead of bailouts and handouts to the farmers, the government should instead demand that the farmers get paid a fair price for their work efforts and this money should come from the middlemen, not taxpayers.

The U.S. Economy and
Its Future Transformation


http://www.gimmiethescoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/uncle-sam-bruised-economy.JPG

[Sanslines]

Can American Consumerism Save US:

http://www.philstockworld.com/2009/06/28/weekend-reading-can-american-consumerism-save-us/

[Sanslines]

Shrunken Sovereign: Consumerism, Globalization, and American Emptiness

There is, to begin with, an accelerating process of internal disintegration—and the engine, consumerism, that drives it. Critics such as David Riesman, Theodor Adorno, and Jean Baudrillard have been writing about conspicuous consumption, keeping up with the Joneses, outer-directed men in gray flannel suits, the dialectic of enlightenment and one-dimensional men since the end of World War II. The story is by now well chronicled: Productivist capitalism, molded by a Protestant ethos conducive to work, investment, deferred gratification, and service, has long since given way to consumerist capitalism, defined by an ethos of infantilization conducive to laxity, impetuousness, narcissism, and consumption. Where once Americans worked harder than almost any other people, today pop commentators such as Thomas Friedman can worry about the “quiet crisis” in which the tendency to “extol consumption over hard work, investment and long-term thinking” creates an America whose vaunted productivity is in decline and where kids “get fat, dumb, and lazy,” squandering the very moral capital the Protestant culture once promoted and sustained. Tellingly, President Bush after 9/11 did not invite Americans to sacrifice or work hard in order to defeat terrorism; he invited them to go shopping.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/2008%20-%20Spring/full-Barber.html

[MoonShadow]

70% percent of our economy is based on consumers. Hmmmm, well, the Asian markets will not do so good if this 70% cuts back its consumerism, now will it?

What then happens to our economy if this 70% cuts back? All markets, nationally and globally will suffer, will they not? What would happen to global markets when the US consumer cuts back? What would happen if our 70% base consumerist markets cuts back, to say, 40%?

What would replace consumerism?

I am throwing these questions out for thought.

[Navigator]

Regardless of what consumers or the Fed would like, we're seeing a record consumer credit contraction per Karl Denninger's column 2 days ago.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1417-FLASH-Consumer-Credit-RECORD-Contraction.html


"
*U.S. JULY CONSUMER CREDIT WAS FORECAST TO DROP BY $4 BILLION
*U.S. JULY CREDIT CARD, OTHER REVOLVING DEBT FALLS $6.1 BLN
*U.S. JULY NON-REVOLVING BORROWING FALLS RECORD $15.4 BILLION
*U.S. JUNE CREDIT FALLS $15.5 BLN, REVISED FROM $10.3 BLN DROP
*U.S. JULY CONSUMER CREDIT FALLS RECORD $21.6 BILLION, FED SAYS

Forget the so-called "recovery" given these sorts of numbers.

Consumers are unable and unwilling to borrow.

The inevitable contraction that is necessary to put the financial system back into balance is happening - whether The Fed wants it to or not.

This is a roughly 0.8% contraction in one month."

[Navigator]

Debtors Revolt Begins Against Bank of America:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1419-And-So-It-Begins-Debtors-Revolt.html

[Sanslines]

What will replace consumerism?

There will always be a certain level of consumerism. However, the present level of mass american consumerism is unsustainable. In order to fully answer this good question, it is important to understand the history of american consumerism ie how we go to the point that we have reached today. To start this discussion off, it is important to know that Americans in today's world "want it cheap, want it all, and want it now!" Quality has given way to low quality, inexpensive goods that are availible now.

This is a rather long, but detailed history of american consumerism:

http://www.answers.com/topic/consumerism

In brief: Consumerism describes the shift in American culture from a producer-oriented society in the nineteenth century to a "consumerist" society in the twentieth century. Changes in domestic demographics and advances in industrialization, manufacturing, transportation, and communication all contributed to the change. Consumerism also contributed greatly to the liberal thrust of the Progressive Era and spawned a long-running trend of consumer advocacy and consumer protection legislation.



A Liberated Consumerism

The 1960s brought a liberated consumerism. Sexually free with the advent of birth control pills in 1960, and encouraged by such books as Betty Friedan (http://www.answers.com/topic/intimate-portrait-betty-friedan-tv-episode)'s The Feminine Mystique (1963) to drop the June Cleaver wardrobe and attitudes of the 1950s, women sought new and different avenues for their lives. They also became fresh targets for advertisers. Commercials encouraged free lifestyles with portable hair curlers and blow dryers. Women were shown that they need not be tied to motherly (http://www.answers.com/topic/motherly) chores like cooking with the appearance of such baby boom staples as toaster pastries and instant puddings; they need not dress like their mothers and grandmothers, either, as bell-bottom pants, hip-huggers, and flower-print shirts set a breezy (http://www.answers.com/topic/breezy), liberated style for the era. Marketing reminded women that to be any less was to be "square"; yet the double face of marketing continued to chide (http://www.answers.com/topic/chide) women for having a less-than-spotless kitchen floor or mirrors that did not sparkle (http://www.answers.com/topic/sparkle).

Advertising also continued to prey on the male psyche (http://www.answers.com/topic/psyche) as well. Men needed to drink, smoke, and dress like James Bond. Family sedans were passé: instead, muscle cars like the Pontiac GTO and Oldsmobile 442 were the way to go. Better yet, get into sporty (http://www.answers.com/topic/sporty) pony cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, and Pontiac Firebird. If you could afford it, the Chevrolet Corvette was the ultimate expression of male virility (http://www.answers.com/topic/virility) on the road, as Martin Milner and George Maharis had proved in the popular television drama Route 66.

Consumer protection took an upswing (http://www.answers.com/topic/upswing) in 1962 when President John F. Kennedy introduced his Consumer Bill of Rights. Kennedy said that all consumers have a right to safety, the right to be informed about products, the right to choose, and the right to be heard. His platform set the stage for new investigative hearings into the safety of products ranging from over-the-counter medicines to cosmetics.

[BinCo]

Debtors Revolt Begins Against Bank of America:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1419-And-So-It-Begins-Debtors-Revolt.html


My best friend in Texas did the same thing when BoA raised his rates to 33%. He ended up filing for bankruptcy last year and now pays cash. His credit score has gone up a little to 520, but that's not much worse than Michael Jackson was.

Our mortgage was sold to BoA and now we have to deal with these jerks. My wife wants to figure out how to refinance, but our banker told her that BoA has a good possibility of ending up with the loan anyway.

[Bluetaylor]

True, it's not just China with the importing here. Mexico was helped out a lot by NAFTA, probably not as much as they like, but still a big Help to them. Many companies built lots of manufacturing plants in Mexico and moved out of the USA. I remember Clinton doing the NAFTA thing and didn't agree with it .... oh well.

I also remember Perot with his huge sucking sound comments. Although there is no NAFTA with China, they are the ones that seem to make that sucking sound extremely loud these days --- can you hear it???

[missouriboy]

Now, there's nothing wrong with taking an *affordable* mortgage, or even a car loan , but, the important thing is not to get "underwater."Good advice. I explained it to my kids by using this adage: "NEVER use BORROWED money to buy TOYS."

You gotta finance your house, and usually a decent car. And perhaps the tools for your work (such as the semi-tractors mentioned earlier). But that's it! Save up and pay CASH for everything else. That's how I lived my life, and I'm richer for it. For example, we were married for 11 years before we even had a color TV. We didn't care what the Joneses had.

I have yet to pay the first DIME of credit-card interest, though I use them often. I pay them off when used, which is essentially the same as buying with cash. Being "crushed by debt" is the worst choice you can ever make for yourself. And it IS your choice.

Also, be sure to always save a little for your retirement. You can live on less than you earn, especially when you never see it. Pay yourself first!

[missouriboy]

True, it's not just China with the importing here. Mexico was helped out a lot by NAFTA, probably not as much as they like, but still a big Help to them. Many companies built lots of manufacturing plants in Mexico and moved out of the USA. I remember Clinton doing the NAFTA thing and didn't agree with it .... oh well.

I also remember Perot with his huge sucking sound comments. Although there is no NAFTA with China, they are the ones that seem to make that sucking sound extremely loud these days --- can you hear it???I was against NAFTA too, it was the beginning of the end for American manufacturing jobs.

I also remember Perot's "sucking sound" too. Here, let me share with you this e-mail correspondence I had with a friend in July of 2003:

NAFTA = No American Factories Turning out Anything!


> When I first saw this bumper sticker about 12 yrs ago I thought that was a
> stupid thing to say about such a 'High Minded Concept' as Free trade.
> I've learned since, that darn bumper sticker was RIGHT. The strange thing is
> that BOTH Democrats and Republicans are For this. Ross Perot was not for
> it!! Something about a 'Sucking Sound'.
>
Signed,
Friend

(My Reply...)

Being a Spotlight reader since around 1985, I was aware of these sentiments
prior to the political debut of Mr. Perot. So, when I watched the 1992
presidential campaign debates between Bush the Elder, Clinton and Perot, I
saw with understanding an incredible scene which I have never forgotten to
this day.

Bush and Perot were debating NAFTA, and as Perot waxed about his "giant
sucking sound," he stated that the ulterior motive was to "...bring up the
wealth of Mexico, and bring down the wealth of the United States, until they
are in equilibrium..." (paraphrased). As he was saying this, he held his
hands out, palms up, one high and one low, and slowly brought them together,
meeting in the middle just as he was saying "equilibrium." As he finished
making this point, the camera panned to Bush for his reaction and/or
rebuttal. And here is where I'll try to describe what I saw...

Bush was gap-jawed, speechless, smiling the guilt-ridden grin of a kid
caught in the cookie jar. But his eyes were steely-hard, glaring at Perot
with the incredulity of a mentor who was devastatingly disappointed with
the performance of a protege who had just betrayed the most important
confidence in the world. That look on his face said to me, "ROSS! I know
that! You know that! But you ALSO know that it's NEVER to be revealed to
the PEOPLE, you blundering IDIOT!!!"

Bush was unable to respond, and changed the subject as fast as possible, as
I recall.

I voted for Perot!

Sincerely,
missouriboy

P.S. Don't let that quote above be taken out of context. It's my own
interpretation of what I saw, not anything Bush ever actually said.

[johnniep1]

In life, how you make your bed is how you're going to lay in it.