These numbers don't add up! (Long)

[P & C]

I just finished reading an article in the recent 'N' magazine that is a continuation of the conversation about the aging of naturism in America. The author went on to paint a bleak picture of aging baby boomers with nobody behind them to fill the void. He nearly admonished the general public for not being more supportive of the landed clubs, projecting that as many as half of these clubs are likely to close within the next two decades. (Paraphrase - not a quote!)

On the other hand, every time I read anything in the mainstream press, they quote AANR in noting that the naturist travel industry is growing by leaps and bounds, and that there is a greater attraction to nudist resorts and activities with a distribution throughout the age and socio-ecomomic distribution. The success of places like Desert Shadows and the resorts in Florida and the Carribean provide tangible evidence that people of all ages are more willing than ever to enjoy recreational nudity.

So which is it? Nudism is dying - or nudism is becoming mainstream? I understand the intent of the first article in that the traditional, long-time clubs are suffering and that things need to change. But maybe what needs to change is how these clubs are perceived by (and marketed to) the general public.

And what about the internet community? Ten years ago it was almost impossible to meet other naturists without joining a club, let alone the difficulties of finding a club or resort that is now simply a mouse click away.

So here's the question - What's REALLY going on out there? Are more people willing/interested in nude recreation than before? Or are we falling to the conservative, narrow trends prevalent in other parts of our society right now? Are the numbers growing or declining?

Paul

[P & C]

I just finished reading an article in the recent 'N' magazine that is a continuation of the conversation about the aging of naturism in America. The author went on to paint a bleak picture of aging baby boomers with nobody behind them to fill the void. He nearly admonished the general public for not being more supportive of the landed clubs, projecting that as many as half of these clubs are likely to close within the next two decades. (Paraphrase - not a quote!)

On the other hand, every time I read anything in the mainstream press, they quote AANR in noting that the naturist travel industry is growing by leaps and bounds, and that there is a greater attraction to nudist resorts and activities with a distribution throughout the age and socio-ecomomic distribution. The success of places like Desert Shadows and the resorts in Florida and the Carribean provide tangible evidence that people of all ages are more willing than ever to enjoy recreational nudity.

So which is it? Nudism is dying - or nudism is becoming mainstream? I understand the intent of the first article in that the traditional, long-time clubs are suffering and that things need to change. But maybe what needs to change is how these clubs are perceived by (and marketed to) the general public.

And what about the internet community? Ten years ago it was almost impossible to meet other naturists without joining a club, let alone the difficulties of finding a club or resort that is now simply a mouse click away.

So here's the question - What's REALLY going on out there? Are more people willing/interested in nude recreation than before? Or are we falling to the conservative, narrow trends prevalent in other parts of our society right now? Are the numbers growing or declining?

Paul

[nudeinfl]

I'll take a shot here.

First, in the age of technology, to project 20 years is mpossible. Things change too rapidly and that includes social issues. Frontpage things today are forgotten tomorrow.

I feel that nudism is on the upswing. Sure, there may be a glut of younger nudists, but hasn't that been historically true. Younger people have obligations such as kids. This takes time away from them engaging in nudist activities. Also, income is always an issue for younger families. Many families don't have the extra money in this day and age to pay membership dues at a club.

Finally, you are absolutely correct in the value of the Internet promoting our lifestyle. I spoke with a number of at home nudists who haven't partaken in social nudity. Because of forums like this, they have a way to reach other nudists. Otherwise, they would be isolated from us. True, the nudist clubs may not be experiencing tremendous growth as of yet, but I believe they will. We must remember that the Internet is still pretty much in its infancy and these at home nudists are just starting to gain insight into our way of life. I believe that a large percentage of these people will eventualy venture in the social aspect of our lifestyle.

Study of history will show us a great deal about where we are going. Most grassroot organizations take a long time to make significant headway but at some point they get the numbers to make a difference. We are no different. For each individual who engages in social nudity, there has to be 5 or 10 times that number who are at home. These are the ones who will drive us to get things done.

[Nude in the North]

To assume that nudism will die out because current nudists will die of old age is poor logic at best.
It is just as likely, (or unlikely) that in 20 years, Everyone will be a nudist.

I'm sure you can find statistics to support either view. It's sort of the "glass half full" thing. It really depends on the agenda of the person making the statement or study.

Nudism is thriving because the younger generation is more willing to give it a try. Not because clubs that have been around for 50 years are getting better. But because there are more options for nudists.
The ability to find places to be nude through the internet,publications, and some tevelision programs is what's spurring the interest. Not a bunch of 70 year olds that go to a private club.

I feel that the days of the Private Club's are numbered if they don't do something to encourage younger members. The expense and regulations required to become a member arn't going to encourage anyone to join a club.
Clothing optional resorts and vacation packages are encouraging, but not everyone can afford the price.
For nudism to grow there needs to be more "free" options for the general public to enjoy.

Haulover Beach is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Anyone in the Miami Dade county area can get there for the price of a bus ticket. The Motel's, Restruant's, and Mall's in the area all benefit from the tourists that travel to the area.
Nudism doesn't need more Huge Resort chains to build in the Carribbean or on the coasts. We need more local areas to realize the potential that having a free nude beach in their area could bring to their community.
I'm sure that I'm not the only person that would be willing to travel 100 or 200 miles to enjoy a weekend at a nude beach. But I can't afford a $300 a night resort when I get there.

Steve

[Croydon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul & Carol:

On the other hand, every time I read anything in the mainstream press, they quote AANR in noting that the naturist travel industry is growing by leaps and bounds, and that there is a greater attraction to nudist resorts and activities with a distribution throughout the age and socio-ecomomic distribution. The success of places like Desert Shadows and the resorts in Florida and the Carribean provide tangible evidence that people of all ages are more willing than ever to enjoy recreational nudity.

So which is it? Nudism is dying - or nudism is becoming mainstream? I understand the intent of the first article in that the traditional, long-time clubs are suffering and that things need to change. But maybe what needs to change is how these clubs are perceived by (and marketed to) the general public.
Paul <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have to consider the "classes of nudism." For ex: there are nude beach goers who only go to nude beaches but don't consider themselves nudist. There are social nudist, those who go to nude beaches, members of clubs, attend resorts. There are also home nudist.

Whether or not nudism is on the rise, I am not sure. Articles state that clothing optional resorts have been experiencing a boost in business. You have to look at the demographic of these people visiting resorts. It is NOT young adults. It is older, esp. middle age, people with large discretionary income. It is no secret that visits to resorts are EXPENSIVE. I was planning a visit to one for spring break. When I did all the calculation, the trip would cost me nearly $2000. That is a lot of money and let's be serious, young adults don't have that kind of money. DO I believe nudism will die in 20 years? I am not sure but I am sure that if naturist organizations like TNS, AANR and landed/non-landed clubs don't start supporting young adults who are interested into nudism or families who are raising nudist kids, believe me, nudism will suffer.

Nudist adults don't seem to think that the lack of young adults isn't there problem. They are thinking for themselves and for today but not thinking about tomorrow. Many have the "it is not my problem" mentality.

[luvnaturism]

When the travel industry talks about growth in naturist bookings, they are talking about resorts, cruises, etc.?the kinds of things that people use travel agents for. They aren't talking about the guy and gal who get on the city bus and head for Haulover Beach.

There clearly are more options for upscale clothing optional vacations than there used to be, and I don't think we'd see all the new resorts and cruise options if there wasn't business to keep them going. Not everyone can afford the $200 - $500 per day price tag that these places charge (+airfare), but there are enormous numbers of people today who can and do spend that much and more.

But those bookings are for places that are offering a great deal more than just the chance to take your clothes off in public. Some of the long-established naturist facilities can compete for that business (think Desert Shadows Inn and Terra Cotta Inn in Palm Springs), but most of them can't. They simply don't offer the amenities that many people demand today.

So I think the clothing optional vacation business has grown enormously and will continue to grow, but I don't see that it necessarily helps the long-established clubs that are offering amenities at the 1950s level.

Last summer we happened to be near a long-established and respected nudist club, so we phoned ahead and arranged for a tour. We were dismayed at how poor the facilities were. I'd still be OK to pitch a tent and kick back for a while, but my wife isn't going to a place like that. And if she's not going, neither am I. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ncognito66]

Compare prices for a day fee at the upscale Florida resorts to the more rustic rural campground types. Almost the same price! How does one explain that?

[P & C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvnaturism:

Last summer we happened to be near a long-established and respected nudist club, so we phoned ahead and arranged for a tour. We were dismayed at how poor the facilities were. I'd still be OK to pitch a tent and kick back for a while, but my wife isn't going to a place like that. And if she's not going, neither am I. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And I think this is part of my point. The industry is changing because our society is changing. An article in the previous N magazine quoted a book called 'Bowling Alone' that studies the decline of civic commitment on the part of most Americans. Not just rustic nudist clubs, but churches, PTA groups, political campaigns . . . you name it. That along with the fact that most Americans have more discretionary income than they did 50 years ago completely changes the game from "I'll put in my hours and make my pledge" to "I'll buy it when I need or want it." The 20/30-somethings may not have that kind of discretionary income yet (though many do!), but I think we have to consider this shift in society when trying to figure out the psychology of the whole situation. What part of it is about nudism, what part is about belonging (or lack thereof), and what part of it is about money. It's a complicated debate!

Paul

[TXK NUDE]

It's not just the money issue. Most of us would reognize the need for monies to update and maintain a decent facility, but what keeps us from attending our "local" club (currently over 2 hours away from us) is the fact that they have virually nothing to offer us as a family! We can't go and enjoy a peaceful time as adults because they offer nothing for our children! And we can't go without the kids since my in-laws are so nosey about where we are going when we drop off the kids for them to keep them. "If nudism is so family oriented...why can't you take the kids with you?" Good point, huh?

As far as a quick fix to both problems (the money and the lack of family activities) that would be more local non-landed clubs. Without facilities to maintain, the cost of membership would be cheaper if not totally free, and it would be better for families who just can't take off and travel for several hours just to get to a resort or club. Close at home, a chance to faternize with local nudists, and develop friendships with others who have kids your own children's age.

The problem with that, at least what I have seen in our local area, is that most nudists are still too timid to admit they are nudists to people that they might run into at Wal Mart! I know from the people I've met at our club that there are several nudists in our immediate area, but so far, none have stepped forward to join or start a local travel club...I know, I've been trying for over three years!

[Donbon]

Hello. What's happening to nudism? For one, young people are refusing to remove their clothing and take a shower (in the nude) after physical education classes in schools, as an example. We've written about this in these forums. Strangely, more people, today, are body building and performing intense excerising. However, with so much to show for, there is a tendency not to want to show thier bodies in public (especially in the nude...this certainly calls for a study). Prices at parks and resorts are so enormous due to the rising costs of operation (insurance, etc.) and the amount of time the owner spends on maintaining...24-7. Many of us think that nudisim has made great strides recently. It could be that nudism is actually taking great steps backward. Much study and polling needs to be done to determine the future of nudism and what would it take for an individual to experience social nudisim for the first time.

[WacoTX]

Clubs are not likely to disappear soon. It is the only place some nudists can go with/without kids and feel somewhat safe. More and more people are nude at home but fear being discovered. As mentioned club upkeep and improvement can be expensive.

A help to club owners would be to make known what we expect when we visit their clubs.

I think a club should have a good club house with food service; a pool; volley ball court; hiking trails; RV hookups; tent spaces; physical fitness equipment. What would you like to see?

[TXK NUDE]

A kid's play area...sandbox, tether ball, slides and swings(not metal!) and a wading pool where kids in Li'l Swimmers/diapers can splash and play while the parents are in the big pool that requires total nudity. Family-oriented activities would be nice too...not just lazing around the pool all day and then drinking and dancing all night. Something that involves the whole family or centers around the kids would be nice.

[Trailscout]

The great unmet need is for a few acres of nudist sanctuary within an easy drive for all Americans.

With just a little forethought, children are not hard to entertain.

I would not be content to lie beside a pool all day. I enjoy volleyball, petanque, tennis, playing board games, playing horseshoes, croquet, badminton,and darts to name a few things. None of these pasttimes require great expenditure.

To have a nudist mini-park such as this does require that a lot more non-landed clubs arise. This forum could help provide the platform to spawn such clubs.

[P & C]

As far as entertaining the kids, I think the most important ammenity is other kids!!! This has been our biggest frustration in visiting clubs and resorts in the US. Sometimes there will be one other family, but even then our kids feel like oddballs for showing up someplace where there are so few people their age. It makes them think, "Gee, this must be weird because nobody else seems to bring their children here!"

I know this is a 'chicken or the egg' situation and I don't know how it is likely to turn around. If our kids hadn't had several experiences with family nudism in Europe, I think they would have dismissed it altogether, but since they have, they seem to have at least a foggy idea of what this could be.

I, for one, believe there must be some hope in message boards such as these. Here is an opportunity to connect with other families that simply didn't exist 10 years ago. (The connection that is - not the families. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
But the question remains, is nudism really on the decline? And if so, why? Paranoia? Conservatism? Body image? What's changed?!

Paul

[Kim Richards]

Paul & Carol wrote from a paraphrase "I just finished reading an article in the recent 'N' magazine that is a continuation of the conversation about the aging of naturism in America. The author went on to paint a bleak picture of aging baby boomers with nobody behind them to fill the void. He nearly admonished the general public for not being more supportive of the landed clubs."Why should the general public support them? They say they want families but does that mean couples - families if we have to? I can't go. I can't go where it is supposed to be safe. But if I lived around there, I could go to Haulover anytime where the crowd might be unsavory and the beach UNSAFE? Does this make sense.

Nude in the North wrote: "It is justas likely, (or unlikely) that in 20 years, Everyone will be a nudist " I agree that it is unlikely and guarantee they won't be.

Croyden wrote: "if naturist organizations like TNS, AANR and landed/non-landed clubs don't start supporting young adults who are interested into nudism or families who are raising kids, belive me, nudism will suffer." Too late Croyden. We're gone already. I go nude camping with other kids from school. We don't have anyone telling us HOW to camp and what PART of the grounds we can use. And we have more fun....

[Trailscout]

Kim, our language is not real precise and we need to draw a sharper distinction between teens (such as yourself?) who have the mobility to go camping on their own and pre-teen children who generally rely on their parents to take them places.

If you have the freedom to go nude camping, that is great. I really don't care whether you become a part of traditional resort nudism.

I do sincerely hope you will get politically active to protect your rights to be nude. I hate to say it, but civil rights tend to disappear if you do nothing to protect them on an ongoing basis. As a practical matter it is easier to press for your rights as a member of a group than as an individual.

By the way, I live less than 2 hours away from a nudist park that has lots of children every summer and a fair number of teenagers. There are plenty of activities for both groups.

[Kim Richards]

Trailscout wrote: Kim, our language is not real precise and we need to draw a sharper distinction between teens (such as yourself?) who have the mobility to go camping on their own and pre-teen children who generally rely on their parents to take them places. I think its precise enough for all of us. I suppose in the loosest of contexts you could draw pre-teens into this as "Young Naturists'' but it is really throwing a red herring here as they are not the ones being asked to conform.

If you have the freedom to go nude camping, that is great. I really don't care whether you become a part of traditional resort nudism. You have your wish. I couldn't possibly support something that doesn't support us.

As a practical matter it is easier to press for your rights as a member of a group than as an individual. Not when the group represents a viewpoint that for the mostpart you cannot support. It only pushes you further into the background.

By the way, I live less than 2 hours away from a nudist park that has lots of children every summer and a fair number of teenagers. There are plenty of activities for both groups. You fail to get the picture. The majority of us won't go, because we don't get supported UNLESS we support their viewpoint. Like comparisons of the example that I gave of having 'legal' access to Haulover, for instance, yet not having 'legal' access to a club are never discussed. That is why it is hypocritical that the support doesn't come unless it supports the system.

[Trailscout]

Kim, half the posts in this thread have been about pre-teen children. I could tell that you were talking about teens, but I was trying to answer some of the other posts at the same time that were focused on small children. (Lack of clarity on my part).

Here's a few questions for you:
In what way should resorts have supported teens that they are not already doing?

Let me get this right. You have no intention of working with other nudists to demand your political rights? I realize that some nudist resorts are hostile, but what have you got against the Naturist Action Committee for instance?

You mentioned being denied access to a club. I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that Haulover (a public beach) allows unescorted teens because they won't get sued for whatever. Private clubs may be shutting you out because they are worried about getting sued for allowing you in (against the wishes of your parent or guardian).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul & Carol:
I just finished reading an article in the recent 'N' magazine that is a continuation of the conversation about the aging of naturism in America. The author went on to paint a bleak picture of aging baby boomers with nobody behind them to fill the void. He nearly admonished the general public for not being more supportive of the landed clubs, projecting that as many as half of these clubs are likely to close within the next two decades. (Paraphrase - not a quote!)

On the other hand, every time I read anything in the mainstream press, they quote AANR in noting that the naturist travel industry is growing by leaps and bounds, and that there is a greater attraction to nudist resorts and activities with a distribution throughout the age and socio-ecomomic distribution. The success of places like Desert Shadows and the resorts in Florida and the Carribean provide tangible evidence that people of all ages are more willing than ever to enjoy recreational nudity.

So which is it? Nudism is dying - or nudism is becoming mainstream? I understand the intent of the first article in that the traditional, long-time clubs are suffering and that things need to change. But maybe what needs to change is how these clubs are perceived by (and marketed to) the general public.

And what about the internet community? Ten years ago it was almost impossible to meet other naturists without joining a club, let alone the difficulties of finding a club or resort that is now simply a mouse click away.

So here's the question - What's REALLY going on out there? Are more people willing/interested in nude recreation than before? Or are we falling to the conservative, narrow trends prevalent in other parts of our society right now? Are the numbers growing or declining?

Paul <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>One of the interesting things I have noticed about nudism is the movement away from the traditional landed clubs. A poll on Cheef's website at Cheef (http://www.cheef.com)
confirms it. Only about 15% of the respondents belong to traditional clubs. The remainig 85% are almost evenly split between beach/wilderness users and home nudists.

Another poll on a different website asked "if you are not a member, what keeps you away?

While a large number of the respondents said that they like the beach setting for the sand/water combination, the next highest responses were "Cost and "inability to meet other their own "age."

I have seen many people complain about the cost of belonging to clubs. The $400-$500/Year(seems to be about the average) membership is deemed too high by many.

But if you do the math, it is not really that high. If you look at clubs in the northern US and Canada where the season is traditionally
May 1-Oct31, assume 1 day per weekend use. Divide the membership by 24(that being the number of weekends in a season) and you get $20.83 [500/24]
per couple or family.

Add to that many clubs are opening for the weekends through the non-traditional season(winter months)holding potlucks, and offering saunas, hottubbing and swimming etc.
That lowers the per day cost even further.

So either people are misinformed about the cost or the age factor is what is keeping them away.
Again, the "people my own age" factor is more of a myth than reality. Yes there are plenty of old geezers at clubs, but, to use my home club as an example, we have a range of members from couples in their mid-twenties to couples in their seventies. The two largest age groups are the mid-40s and the mid-60s but the third largest is the mid-30s.

I don't think that other clubs vary that much from the numbers I have shown. Any members of other clubs can correct me on this.


When looking at the cost of a membership, you have to remember that Nudist Clubs are both seasonal(unless you live in an area where the temperature stays moderate through the winter) and weather dependent. Ground fees from visitors help support the club and keep membership costs down. If the season is rainy, that cuts into the income of the club. The cost of maintenance is year-round. I know that this past winter, our club's fuel bill averaged $800/month, add electricity and water bills to that, and the cost of operation in a non-revenue generating season is expensive.


A curious thing, althout we promoted the fact that our pool and facilities were open to the general public on weekends throughout the winter, we had little response from area naturists. What made it curious was the number of naturists in the area talking on various message boards about how they wished it was warmer so that they could get swimming again.

[Qball]

"I have seen many people complain about the cost of belonging to clubs. The $400-$500/Year(seems to be about the average) membership is deemed too high by many.

But if you do the math, it is not really that high. If you look at clubs in the northern US and Canada where the season is traditionally
May 1-Oct31, assume 1 day per weekend use. Divide the membership by 24(that being the number of weekends in a season) and you get $20.83 [500/24]
per couple or family."

Back out a few rainy weekends, two or three weekends for soccer, one for a birthday, and two or three for visiting and hosting relatives, and all of a sudden the math changes again.

I don't know anybody that gets 24 weekends to devote to one activity. I don't even have kids I can't get close! To get a more acurrate figure, I'd consider how many weekends a person/couple/family spends at the shore, lake, or other recreational area on either day trips or weekend/weeklong vacation, and work backwards from there.

The time as probably nearly as much a factor as the money is in an aging nudist population.

TLR in Michigan now has three memberships: three months for $300, six months for $450, and $550 per year. Residents pay $1,800 or $2,400 per year lot rent depending on whether or not they have full year round utility hook-up, which includes their membership. I have full hook-up. I met one guy who lives here who has no water in the winter. I couldn't live like that. Yes, we have bathhouses and the clubhouse, but I like having hot and cold running water in my trailer all year long even though there's a bathhouse right outside my trailer.

If a person spends a lot of time at a nudist resort, it would pay to buy a membership. Before this year I spent enough on daily fees to have bought a membership. I just never took the time to figure out what I was paying for those individual visits. Plus the daily fee went up from $20 to $25, or $5 less for AANR members or other affiliations. Still, $20 per visit adds up. Last year alone I spent enough on daily fees to have bought a 6 month membership.

[Qball]

I thought of something else, and I think Oldman touched on it with the reference to the movement away from landed clubs. so that people know where I'm coming from, I'm a 31 year old married male, professionally employed.

Could we be looking, at least in part, at a conflict of definitions? Can one be interested in nude recreation without being a naturist or nudist?

I am pretty sure that I would not fall under the traditional definition of a naturist. I enjoy visiting a nude beach whenever the opportunity presents itself, and even at a "textile" beach, if I am away from the crowds on in a discrete location I'll lose the suit.

That being said, I am not willing to significantly compromise other aspects of my vacation and recreation in order to be nude. If a resort doesn't offer amenities (food, rooms, activities) equal to clothed resorts in the same price range, I won't be interested.

Something else to consider is the activities that different age groups are interested in. Many of the sports that younge people are into (rock climbing, mountain biking, etc.) as well as other things people like to do on vacation (golf, fishing, and so on) don't really mesh well with a lack of clothing, so people that are interested in them may not immediately think of a nude or c/o vacation.

That is the appeal of a nude beach, particular one in close proximity to a resort or vacation area. Go and do everything else I want to do, then relax on the beach.

Sorry for the rambling, it's been a long day!

I'm not into rock climbing, or climbing anything else for that matter. I ride a bicycle in the resort when it's warm, but I don't think I would care for mountain bike riding. I don't care for anything that requires a lot of energy since I have very little of it. Many of us are older and just want to relax, especially those of us who still put in a hard week at work. I retired but got bored, and my retirement didn't pay the bills.

[Trailscout]

Most of us don't go for fancy seaside resorts. We about an even mix of down home country folks and city folks who like getting back to nature.

Two of our resorts are more like well-developed campgrounds. People stay for a week, two weeks or the whole summer in RV's. A few live there all year in trailers. There is also some tent camping and quite a few people come up for just a day.

I combine activities. In the spring and fall I am likely to go hiking in the nearby mountains in the morning and head over to the nudist park for the rest of the day. In the hottest part of summer, I spend the entire day at the nudist park. We have games for the kids, lots of water volleyball, sand volleyball, petanque, board games, horseshoes, cookouts, swimming, talking with old friends.

The teens are very often nude. Like a lot of places, you can't go in the water unless you are nude and it can get VERY hot in July and August.

I feel like I am part of a friendly small town in the mountains. There seems to be no end to the fun and good conversation.

[Hokienudist]

I'll take a shot at this thread...

For me personally, it seems to me that most of the landed clubs arnt supported because their day visit fees are so high and their activities are just not as appealing to younger nudists. Most of the clubs i have seen online have daily fees of 25-40 bucks per day. Thats almost rediculous considering that most of these clubs dont have a whole lot to do. A pool, hot tub, volleyball, maybe a gym or hiking trails.... nothing you couldnt find in your own local park. So is all that stuff really worth that amount of money just to go nude? I suppose for some people, but for many young nudists that i've talked to, it isnt. They just get bored too quickly, so why bother paying those high prices just to go nude? You can do that at home or at a beach.

Landed clubs need to modernize to start appealing to a younger croud if they are going to survive. Lowering their prices wouldnt hurt either. 40 dollars for a daily visit to sit around a pool or play some volleyball for a couple hours is just not economically sensible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hokienudist:
I'll take a shot at this thread...

For me personally, it seems to me that most of the landed clubs arnt supported because their day visit fees are so high and their activities are just not as appealing to younger nudists. Most of the clubs i have seen online have daily fees of 25-40 bucks per day. Thats almost rediculous considering that most of these clubs dont have a whole lot to do. A pool, hot tub, volleyball, maybe a gym or hiking trails.... nothing you couldnt find in your own local park.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your local parks are supported by a larger base than your local nudist club. Everyone on the tax roll in your community pays towards that community park. Your local nudist club has to rely on the membership and visitors. That is why day fees are at the level they are. Also, unless the park is in a very southern locale, the season is only 6 or so months in length. However, the maintenance is 12 months a year. Money earned during the season has to carry the club through the non-earning months.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So is all that stuff really worth that amount of money just to go nude? I suppose for some people, but for many young nudists that i've talked to, it isnt. They just get bored too quickly, so why bother paying those high prices just to go nude? You can do that at home or at a beach.

Landed clubs need to modernize to start appealing to a younger croud if they are going to survive.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So what does the younger crowd desire of a club?
What do you consider "modernizing"?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Lowering their prices wouldnt hurt either. 40 dollars for a daily visit to sit around a pool or play some volleyball for a couple hours is just not economically sensible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Take out a membership. That lowers that cost of entry. If you go to the beach once a week, by joining a club and going once a week puts your cost at roughly $20/day.

[Qball]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hokienudist:
[qb] I'll take a shot at this thread...

...most of these clubs dont have a whole lot to do. A pool, hot tub, volleyball, maybe a gym or hiking trails.... nothing you couldnt find in your own local park.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your local parks are supported by a larger base than your local nudist club. Everyone on the tax roll in your community pays towards that community park. Your local nudist club has to rely on the membership and visitors. That is why day fees are at the level they are. Also, unless the park is in a very southern locale, the season is only 6 or so months in length. However, the maintenance is 12 months a year. Money earned during the season has to carry the club through the non-earning months.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So is all that stuff really worth that amount of money just to go nude? I suppose for some people, but for many young nudists that i've talked to, it isnt...Landed clubs need to modernize to start appealing to a younger croud if they are going to survive.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So what does the younger crowd desire of a club?
What do you consider "modernizing"?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think we're bumping up against the difference between the "nude recreation" crowd, in which I'd count myself, and those who enjoy a nude "lifestyle."

Speaking only for myself, quality accomadations and dining options would be at the top of the list. Next would probably more activities, even if some of them required some clothing as equipment.

I think Hokie and I are in agreement that most people in the 20-35 or so age group have lifestyles such that sitting around a pool and playing a little bit of volleyball or horseshoes
doesn't sound all that exciting.

With the demands we have on our time and money, value is important. Value comes from several things-price, conveinence, and actual product delivered. A nearby club with minimal amenities but a reasonable cost could provide more overall value than a distant, expensive resort. However, if a club or resort is looking to be a destination for younger travellers, it needs to offer everything, or nearly everything that competing clothed options offer, PLUS the opportunity to be clothes free.

Being able to be nude other than just inside my home is worth the cost. Of course, I live in a nudist resort, and it's costing me a lot less than it did to live in a textile neighborhood where I had to keep my windows covered and be nude only indoors.

Two weeks ago I did yard work nude for the first time in my life, and I actually enjoyed doing the work. I have always HATED yard work. I can ride my bicycle nude here--if it EVER warms up! It's in the low 40's F right now.

It's not nude recreation I wanted--it was a nude LIFESTYLE, and that's what I got! No, I can't be nude 24/7, but I'm nude a lot more than I ever was living in a textile neighborhood, and I LOVE it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Uurgu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul & Carol:

So here's the question - What's REALLY going on out there? Are more people willing/interested in nude recreation than before? Or are we falling to the conservative, narrow trends prevalent in other parts of our society right now? Are the numbers growing or declining?

Paul <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The numbers are growing AND declining. There are more nudists, but since there are more people, the percentage is declining. Don't forget that because of more women in the work place, and because of contraception and abortion, there are far less young people out there percentage wise than there were 50 years ago. Also because more clubs admit the burgeoning single male nudist population, than did 50 years ago, it contributes to their being fewer young people percentage wise.

Also factoring in is the sexual revolution in the 1960's. This fostered a greater acceptance of nudity, but at a price. This kind of nudity is sexual in nature (free love) and nudism has naturally been drawn to this and thus there are many nudists who hold to this kind of hippie/nudist world view, and have grown to become the so called establishment of nudism now 40 years after.

Nudism unfortunatly did not find much company within the more conservative element as it did in the 1950's so it had to go begging to the liberal corner. As a result we now have a nudist culture that is very progressive socially, and not very well integrated with the traditional, nuclear family element as it was in the 1950's and prior.

[NW Nude]

It is my observation that nudism is declining and graying. My wife and I are 38. We were both born and raised in this area of the NW. Neither of us knew of the 3 landed clubs within 2 hrs of us. Thanks to the internet we found out, a year ago, explored and are now nudists. As we visit clubs and go to events, we are always the youngest. We belong to a "family club" with only 4 member kids. It is primarily older folks who want to relax. All nudist young and old need to promote nude clubs and beaches. The swims are shutting down, Beaches are being closed, and little is done to promote new nudists. A local club just adopted a highway litter project and was on the local news. Maybe progress.

[Trailscout]

I cannot be nude in my yard and the nearest nude beach is more than 450 miles away.

The nearest nudist park is about 90 miles away.

Our local state parks do not have hot tubs and saunas and you never see the same people twice.

The nudist resort I visit has a regular crowd of really cool people and they have programs for the kids, organized outings to town and nude dances on site for the teens. The older folks have their own things too.

Our teens come with their parents who pay their way. Our young adults can generally afford to pay the admission fee of about $22.00. If they live in the area, an annual or 3 month memberships will save you money. And they have great rates for vacations if you camp out there.

I guess some people are bored everywhere. They take that black cloud of gloom with them! I recall a post from a guy who was bored when he went to Haulover Beach of all places!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
I cannot be nude in my yard and the nearest nude beach is more than 450 miles away.

The nearest nudist park is about 90 miles away.

Our local state parks do not have hot tubs and saunas and you never see the same people twice.

The nudist resort I visit has a regular crowd of really cool people and they have programs for the kids, organized outings to town and nude dances on site for the teens. The older folks have their own things too.

Our teens come with their parents who pay their way. Our young adults can generally afford to pay the admission fee of about $22.00. If they live in the area, an annual or 3 month memberships will save you money. And they have great rates for vacations if you camp out there.

I guess some people are bored everywhere. They take that black cloud of gloom with them! I recall a post from a guy who was bored when he went to Haulover Beach of all places! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have asked many younger people why they prefer beaches/wildnerness places over clubs. Many have offered the opinion that because they have limited funds and time it is easier to go to the beach. I find this puzzling, since many will drive over one hundred miles to go to a beach, while passing by a club that is on their way or even in their home town. It takes at least two hours to travel 100 miles, and I am sure that it takes a fair bit of gasoline(which at last check wasn't free) to travel that far.

Others have said that there isn't enough activities at most clubs, once you did the pool, hot tub, and sitting around talking, volleyball and petanque. At most beaches, there is volleyball, swimming, sitting around. I don't see a whole lot of other activities that you couldn't do in a club venue.

Others have said that they want fine dining and accomodations... I never realised that eating a picnic lunch on a beach was a 5 star Cordon Bleu meal. Sand is nice for walking on, but I don't find that it improves a sandwich. As for accomodations, most areas kick you off the beach if you try and sleep there overnight.

Could someone explain how a club is far too expensive again?

[Trailscout]

Oldman,
Thanks for some making some helpful observations. It seems that some people don't have the ability to entertain themselves.

Our North Georgia mountain nudist resorts are close to a lot of tourist attractions, so it's very easy to combine a trip to shop in the alpine village, or any one of several historic town squares, and spend the rest of the day at one of the nudist parks. There are often outdoor folk festivals, musical concerts for visitors.

I wonder if some young folks think there won't be anyone their age at the nudist park.
Our resorts vary, but one or two always have several young singles on any given day and that includes a few single gals.

I have nothing against luxury resorts, but I am just a computer technician and a bit of a country boy at heart and I am much happier among the downhome folks at our mountain nudist campgrounds than in some luxurious place in the Caribbean. Maybe I could go somewhere fancy for my honeymoon, but I need a more practical way to be nude week in and week out. Now where I go is not that rustic, it just can't be compared to what you find on St. Maartin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Oldman,
Thanks for some making some helpful observations. It seems that some people don't have the ability to entertain themselves.

Our North Georgia mountain nudist resorts are close to a lot of tourist attractions, so it's very easy to combine a trip to shop in the alpine village, or any one of several historic town squares, and spend the rest of the day at one of the nudist parks. There are often outdoor folk festivals, musical concerts for visitors.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The local club that we belong to has many attractions for those who require more than relaxation. Within a few minutes drive, there is a racetrack, a casino, many museums, historical sites and several conservation areas.

But you don't have to leave the club to seek the beauty of nature. Today, around 9am, a doe and fawn were feeding right in the middle of the campground. A short hike up the nature trail usually results in many different species of birdlife, racoons and rabbits are common, and at night, you can often hear the coyotes calling. I have seen red foxes hunting along the edges of the brush throughout the year.

To me, that is more of a draw than the fanciest gyms or restaurants.

We are leaving Wednesday evening for a two week stay at the club. Temps are forecast to be in the high 50s to low 70s over that period, and we shall be helping get the grounds in order for the official May 1st opening of the camping season(thats our excuse anyways). /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seeing as how many of the younger set are complaining of how little time they have for recreation, you would think that rather than rushing around taking part in active events, that a little relaxation and contemplation would be something to seek out.

[shãybare]

Just about every morning I get up and while drinking my coffee and piddling around on the computer, I see deer walk by, some rabbits, squirrels aplenty and a yard full of birds. Yesterday I saw two possums and a raccoon. It is nice to have the door open and listen to all the "morning music" of wildlife. This is what gives me comfort. It is very soothing.I love my home here and enjoy it everyday. I'm a country boy and prefer the solitude and peacefulness of country living.

I know you keep pushing going to the clubs because you are a member of one and enjoy the club very often. What you do not seem to realize, though it has been mentioned several times, is that many people do not have or can afford every weekend to visit a nude club.

There are 52 weeks in a year. $420 divided by 52 is $8.07 a week. That's cheep, but who can go every week end? Alot of the clubs close during the winter months and won't allow you in even though they have charged you for a year. Isn't that illegal or something? Charging you for a year but denying you access for parts of the year?

You're whole assumption is wrong because you are assuming the member can make it every weekend the club is open for business. That is not reality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shaybare:
[qb] Just about every morning I get up and while drinking my coffee and piddling around on the computer, I see deer walk by, some rabbits, squirrels aplenty and a yard full of birds. Yesterday I saw two possums and a raccoon. It is nice to have the door open and listen to all the "morning music" of wildlife. This is what gives me comfort. It is very soothing.I love my home here and enjoy it everyday. I'm a country boy and prefer the solitude and peacefulness of country living.

I know you keep pushing going to the clubs because you are a member of one and enjoy the club very often. What you do not seem to realize, though it has been mentioned several times, is that many people do not have or can afford every weekend to visit a nude club.

There are 52 weeks in a year. $420 divided by 52 is $8.07 a week. That's cheep, but who can go every week end? Alot of the clubs close during the winter months and won't allow you in even though they have charged you for a year. Isn't that illegal or something? Charging you for a year but denying you access for parts of the year?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The clubs fees that I have seen on the web are seasonal fees. Not yearly fees.
And many clubs, including ours, are open weekends throughout the winter.


You're whole assumption is wrong because you are assuming the member can make it every weekend the club is open for business. That is not reality.

Funny, but most people seem to be able to get to their local nude beach each weekend. And even if you can't get to your local club every weekend...

Let's look at a 6 month season.

Going two weekends per month. 450/12=$37.50

If you go throughout the winter...

450/24=$18.75

Even one weekend a month..it is still $37.50/day for a full year.

Most people I know get at least two days off a month.

The point which I was making was... if you drive two hours to get to a nude beach, you are spending almost as much as if you were attending your local club. Plus, you lose two hours of time travelling each way.

Some people were saying that time and money were constraints. I was pointing out that if you work the math, it really isn't that expensive.

[Trailscout]

We seem to be discussing three different things at the same time again.

Overall, we are discussing what it would take to bring new blood to nudism, and even increase our numbers and influence. Assumption: convincing more young people to attend/join a nudist resort should be a major part of the revival of nudism. Discussion: is the nudist park an outdated concept? Pers. opinion: not where I live.

Issue 1:
We hear the demand, "Make it more affordable" and the subsequent claim "Then young people will come to the nudist venues". (on the premise that it is not affordable nor a bargain). We have offered plenty of evidence that it is affordable, excepting the more luxurious spots.

Issue 2:
We hear the demand, "Make it more entertaining or attractive to young people". (That assumes that it is lack of events or recreational hardware that deters young adults from going. A nudist campground or nudist park seems to appeal to a different crowd than the folks who go to the Caribbean looking for luxurious accomodations. However there is something to be said for upgrading the traditional nudist park to include opportunities for more physical activity. A nudist park's management and AANR itself must make it their goal to offer more physical recreation rather than poolside lounging.

Issue 3:
Teens need to be considered as a separate issue from the case of independent young adults. We also must consider that unescorted teens are never granted admission to a nudist park without their parents or guardian. Teens deal with self-esteem issues and peer pressure more than young adults.
Various solutions have been proposed, such as mandatory nudity in the pool. Regular nudity in the home may be a key ingredient for teens to feel comfortable in a resort. Nudist venues should do more to entertain teens. It seems to help in my opinion.

Issue 4:
Many of us live too far from nudist resorts/parks.
Various solutions have been offered, some discussed already, some need more input:
Solution 1: For Shay and some others, having personal property that is private enough for nudity is an acceptable substitute for a fixed site that offers social nudity/nude recreation.

Solution 2: Some of us who are too far from a nudist venue can find nude opportunities in the woods of national forests or some secluded beaches.

Solution 3: Some of us have neither private property nor ready access to secluded public land. Solution 3-A: For them, one solution is to form a non-landed club in the hope that they will eventually recruit a member who has a private yard for socials, or
Solution 3-B: They will have to organize, fund and develop a new nudist camp/park. How hard is that? (Not sure).

Solution 4: I suppose a few of us could quit our jobs and move to live closer to or reside within a nudist resort. (Jon-Marc's solution).

Issue 5: We hear the claim that the social climate at many nudist resorts is deterring young people.
5-A: Noticeable swinging has made some resorts uncomfortable places for many nudists.
6-B: Some resorts have so many strict rules that some people don't want to go. In general it seems like the stricter rules are being relaxed. Most people are willing to accept behavior guidelines such as "your right to make a fist ends at my nose".
6-C: Some resorts don't admit single men or so severely restrict their numbers that it amounts to a ban. This is a forum thread in itself, so I don't want to go into details, but most of us don't want to go to a resort that is 90% male, but too many resorts are too restrictive against singles.
7-C: We hear the complaint that nudist parks have too many old people to attract young people, but to a large extent, the age of the visitors is responsive to resort policies. Too many resorts decide that they want empty-nest middle-aged adults and retired people. In my opinion, if a nudist park began an aggressive campaign to attract young people and had socials to support the campaign, things could turn around quickly.
I think we need a mindset change much more than adding a weight room or a tennis court, although the physical facilities will doubtless change to serve the younger crowd that arrives once policy changes.

[steve-o]

I believe Resorts/Parks need to institute activities and sports much more to interest more people under 50. Period.

The only time we take the drive to our nearest resort (about 80 miles away) is when they have the monthly volleyball tournaments, and even then the turnout has been dissapointing. My girlfriend and I don't want to take the time to drive and expense of entry fee to just to sit around the pool and enjoy the sun and nature. We can do that at our nude beach 3 miles away.

Even a volunteer position would work out I'm sure (as it would not have to be too involved or require purchase of expensive sports equipment) to coordinate fun games... easy things like croquet tournaments, volleyball, water polo, football, treasure hunts, etc.. it would keep the interest up so much more if people know something fun and recreational is going on.

I know I know... "Great idea Steve, why don't you volunteer at your local club/resort?"
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Trailscout]

Great idea Steve, and I am not being facetious!
If a large number of clubs had athletic directors (even serving as volunteers), we ought to see a lot more young adults go to nudist resorts and make repeat visits.

[Hokienudist]

Oldman, you said it yourself... if you go one time a month it works out to 37.50 a visit. One time a month is about as often as most people are going to visit cause of life. So do you think that price is good value? Of course if you could only go once a month then buying a membership doesnt make much sense.

But i have seen clubs that offer day visit fees at about 35 to 40 dollars. And these clubs are not any more luxorious than most clubs. And i understand they get no public funding and its a business and they need to keep running. But those prices just arnt going to draw young people in cause they just cant afford it. They cant afford it till they're not considered young adults anymore.

Now thats not even mentioning that most young nudists i've talked to have no interest in going to a nudist club cause its just not much fun for us. I think most of you guys that are responding so strongly for clubs need to look at it more from our point of view to understand where we're coming from.

In reality the way for clubs to lower prices is for them to advertise to get more business. But thats probably not realistic, and i'm no business major so thats just my thoughts /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Trailscout]

Hokie,

If you are a fulltime student and under age 25, you get in for $10 where I go. If you are an AANR member and single, the daily rate is $22.40.

Hokie, if you aren't making enough money on your regular job as an engineer, you could mow lawns one Saturday a month and make enough money to go to the nudist resort for three Saturdays a month!

I don't know what kind of fun you are looking for, because I've never met anyone who was bored where I go.

[Qball]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
We seem to be discussing three different things at the same time again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Overall, we are discussing what it would take to bring new blood to nudism, and even increase our numbers and influence. Assumption: convincing more young people to attend/join a nudist resort should be a major part of the revival of nudism.

Issue 1:
We hear the demand, "Make it more affordable" and the subsequent claim "Then young people will come to the nudist venues". (on the premise that it is not affordable nor a bargain). We have offered plenty of evidence that it is affordable, excepting the more luxurious spots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree to a point. In theory, a membership can bring the average cost of daily trips down significantly. My point is relatively few people in the 20-35 age group have the time to attend with the frequency being discussed. Demands on our time may include any of the following-finishing college, night/weekend grad school, extra hours getting established at work, family commitments, hobbies or interests best or more practicaly enjoyed clothed, home maintenance, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Issue 2:
We hear the demand, "Make it more entertaining or attractive to young people". (That assumes that it is lack of events or recreational hardware that deters young adults from going. A nudist campground or nudist park seems to appeal to a different crowd than the folks who go to the Caribbean looking for luxurious accomodations. However there is something to be said for upgrading the traditional nudist park to include opportunities for more physical activity. A nudist park's management and AANR itself must make it their goal to offer more physical recreation rather than poolside lounging. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Generally agree, however I belive this raises some additional questions. For purposes of the discussion, would it be usefull to define terms like "young" "resort" "nudism" and so on? At 31, I still consider myself young, but a 22 year old may have a very different opinion. Hence, my opinions may not even be germane to the subject at hand.

As far as resorts, I'm not talking about Sandals or places like that. Well, if a resort was located in the Carib., then yes I would be. My point is that VALUE is as important as PRICE.

Has an attempt ever been made to run an operation with facilities on the level of a Holiday Inn at a reasonable rate? I think there could well be an un/underserved market for a place with clean rooms, a couple of restaurants, and some social and sporting activites.

If the objective is to increase nude recreation, new ideas need to be considered. If the objective is to recruit new members to traditional clubs and campgrounds, keep telling us how affordable it is and how nice the racoons are, and we'll keep staying away in droves.

Getting younger people to the clubs is a real chicken and egg situation, I'm afraid. Generally it takes young people to attract young people, and I just don't havea solution for that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Issue 3:
Teens need to be considered as a separate issue from the case of independent young adults. We also must consider that unescorted teens are never granted admission to a nudist park without their parents or guardian. Teens deal with self-esteem issues and peer pressure more than young adults.
Various solutions have been proposed, such as mandatory nudity in the pool. Regular nudity in the home may be a key ingredient for teens to feel comfortable in a resort. Nudist venues should do more to entertain teens. It seems to help in my opinion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't have a contribution here except to agree that family probably has a lot to do with it either way. Oh, and also don't forget the demands on teens time, and they're natural tendency to be somewhere other than with Mom and Dad. How many teens do you see at the mall, church, beach, or movies with their families. Guess I did have something there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Issue 4:
Many of us live too far from nudist resorts/parks.
Various solutions have been offered, some discussed already, some need more input:
Solution 1: For Shay and some others, having personal property that is private enough for nudity is an acceptable substitute for a fixed site that offers social nudity/nude recreation.

Solution 2: Some of us who are too far from a nudist venue can find nude opportunities in the woods of national forests or some secluded beaches.

Solution 3: Some of us have neither private property nor ready access to secluded public land. Solution 3-A: For them, one solution is to form a non-landed club in the hope that they will eventually recruit a member who has a private yard for socials, or
Solution 3-B: They will have to organize, fund and develop a new nudist camp/park. How hard is that? (Not sure).

Solution 4: I suppose a few of us could quit our jobs and move to live closer to or reside within a nudist resort. (Jon-Marc's solution).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is value in location, and a highly accessible location could generate traffic. The problem is the more accessible the location, the higher the land prices.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Issue 5: We hear the claim that the social climate at many nudist resorts is deterring young people.
5-A: Noticeable swinging has made some resorts uncomfortable places for many nudists.
6-B: Some resorts have so many strict rules that some people don't want to go. In general it seems like the stricter rules are being relaxed. Most people are willing to accept behavior guidelines such as "your right to make a fist ends at my nose".
6-C: Some resorts don't admit single men or so severely restrict their numbers that it amounts to a ban. This is a forum thread in itself, so I don't want to go into details, but most of us don't want to go to a resort that is 90% male, but too many resorts are too restrictive against singles.
7-C: We hear the complaint that nudist parks have too many old people to attract young people, but to a large extent, the age of the visitors is responsive to resort policies. Too many resorts decide that they want empty-nest middle-aged adults and retired people. In my opinion, if a nudist park began an aggressive campaign to attract young people and had socials to support the campaign, things could turn around quickly.
I think we need a mindset change much more than adding a weight room or a tennis court, although the physical facilities will doubtless change to serve the younger crowd that arrives once policy changes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Aiming for the middle-aged, empty nesters actually makes good sense to a point. They have the most disposable income and the most free time. They are a desirable demographic for a wide range of businesses. Add in the fact that the current group of MAENers mostly came of age in the mid-late 60s and it's a perfect fit. Of course that takes us back to the top-How to find the next batch of customers?

I don't know how much swinging or a lack thereof influences attendance. My first few beach experiences were at McF in Texas. You always hear how nudism is not sexual, nobody notices anybody else, blah blah blah-somebody better tell them they aren't nudists then! Didn't really bother me, but it would influence my decision of whether or not to try to talk my wife into giving it a go.

[Hokienudist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Hokie,

If you are a fulltime student and under age 25, you get in for $10 where I go. If you are an AANR member and single, the daily rate is $22.40.

Hokie, if you aren't making enough money on your regular job as an engineer, you could mow lawns one Saturday a month and make enough money to go to the nudist resort for three Saturdays a month!

I don't know what kind of fun you are looking for, because I've never met anyone who was bored where I go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wish i was still a full time student but i'm not.

I wasnt talking about myself personally about not making enough money to go to a club, i was being general. Most people my age dont make as much money as i do so its tough for them to spend that kind of money all the time.

Also maybe the place you go is different than other clubs, so maybe no one is bored at your place. But alot of other clubs arnt as appealing.

[Uurgu]

Nudists should see what they look like from the conservative segment of our society. The folks who are having kids do not want their kids to grow up in an environment like nudism. Until nudism begins to stand against the same things that families with children stand against then nudism will continue to fail. But of course that would label nudists as narrow minded. Find, remain open minded and empty nested.

[Trailscout]

Newton, you've been on this forum too long not to know better than to make such a sweeping condemnation of all nudists. There are a lot of nudist venues that remain wholesome family settings.

I could introduce you to nudist pastors, respectable nudist families and take you to Christian worship services at some nudist parks.

I think it's time that you offer some firsthand experiences with social nudism or come clean and admit that you are just assuming we are all immoral based on hearsay evidence about a few misbehavers.

Going to a concert, just 3 hours long can cost $80 and more, a day pass at Busch Gardens is $50, 18 holes of golf ain't cheap, one ticket for pro football can cost several hundred and how much would you spend at a county fair for one evening? It's all relative I figure.

[Qball]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
Going to a concert, just 3 hours long can cost $80 and more, a day pass at Busch Gardens is $50, 18 holes of golf ain't cheap, one ticket for pro football can cost several hundred and how much would you spend at a county fair for one evening? It's all relative I figure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure it's relative so much as different. At an $80 concert, you are most likely being entertained by a major act. At Busch Gardens you have the rides, football is football and at the county fair you have rides, games, and other entertainment.

[nudeM]

Posted by Cyndiann: "Going to a concert, just 3 hours long can cost $80 and more, a day pass at Busch Gardens is $50, 18 holes of golf ain't cheap, one ticket for pro football can cost several hundred and how much would you spend at a county fair for one evening? It's all relative I figure."----------------------------------------------------------------------

A concert with a major headliner, $45-$50 on up; 18 holes of golf, $25 plus green fees of $20; pro football seat, $45 on up plus $6 parking; county fair, $15 for adults plus $5 parking and depending on what you decide to purchase; a chance at participating in these forums, priceless.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[shãybare]

One factor to consider is that teens are at that rebellious stage which can last into their twentys. Not all teens, I am speaking in general. Teens like to be on their own, have their freedom. Be with other teens, not us "old" folks. At that age, teens, the upper 20's are considered old. They feel if us old folks are around, we are watching them to see if they will "mess-up" so we can jump in and holler at them. How Embarrassing!
Even when there is alot of things at a club for them to do, they want to do it with out the old folks being there.

They want to be able to do things in a way that if they mess up, their friends are there to support them not holler at them. They are at that age where they are easily influenced by their friends and the media. If they have been raised in a home where there is not much nudity and go to a textile school, you know getting them interested in nudism is not very probable.

[DBZ]

I'm a 31 yo mother of 2 kids. My BF is the one who introduced me to this site. After reading this site and a few others, I doubt I'll go to a nude beach and I most certainly would not take my children. My BF might be able to get me to a local event or resort someday. The cost of the local events and the local resort really isn't all that bad. We'd only be able to do a resort for a few days out of the year. We are busy with other activities too.

I used to live in the Tampa area. I spent many years living in Lutz within about 2 miles of Paradise Lakes and Lake Como....drove by them every day. It's been a good 5 years or so since i had a conversation with anyone about the 2 parks, but I was told that Paradise Lakes was for families and that Lake Como was for older folks. I was under the impression that it was a subdivision just like any other only that the people who lived there walked around naked. I had no idea that either place was a place that welcomed the general public for a day or whatever.

And there is another factor that could be a huge deal to families. DSS. If you punish your kid, your kids, the school, whatever might call DSS on you. Can you imagine what they would say if they got wind that your whole family was naked every chance they got.

[Hokienudist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Qball:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
Going to a concert, just 3 hours long can cost $80 and more, a day pass at Busch Gardens is $50, 18 holes of golf ain't cheap, one ticket for pro football can cost several hundred and how much would you spend at a county fair for one evening? It's all relative I figure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure it's relative so much as different. At an $80 concert, you are most likely being entertained by a major act. At Busch Gardens you have the rides, football is football and at the county fair you have rides, games, and other entertainment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to mention that most of those things are done two MAYBE three times a year. But you are advocating going to a nudist club every weekend or twice a month. I dont know many people that do most of those things twice a month.

[Uurgu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Newton, you've been on this forum too long not to know better than to make such a sweeping condemnation of all nudists. There are a lot of nudist venues that remain wholesome family settings.

I could introduce you to nudist pastors, respectable nudist families and take you to Christian worship services at some nudist parks.

I think it's time that you offer some firsthand experiences with social nudism or come clean and admit that you are just assuming we are all immoral based on hearsay evidence about a few misbehavers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trailscout!
Give me a break! This thread was started to discuss the nudist movement as a whole! "...the aging of naturism in North America..."

Your evidence, is again, staring you in the face. You need to look at the movement for what it is rather than basing your opinion of it based upon your favorite clubs. Dont turn a blind eye to the big picture.

[P & C]

So I'm the original poster that started this thread. Is that the conclusion we're driving for here - that nudist clubs are simply a guise for swingers hideouts? We've visited quite a few places with AND without children. We are not swingers and would NEVER knowingly take our children to a place where such is tolerated. I think this is a dangerous generalization, and I hope one that is erroneous!

Is this the new face of nudism in America?

Paul

[Trailscout]

Paul and Carol,

This Uurgu guy (aka Newton) is not a nudist, has taken several opportunities to lambast us, and presumeably has no experience with social nudism other than his "experience" of reading a few alarmist posts on this forum.

There are problems at some resorts, but the character of a resort isn't too hard to discover if you visit their Web site, read a brochure or talk to people who've been there. There's no need to walk into something blind.

If you have met Cheef Dan, (he lives near Philadelphia) he can give you a fair appraisal of the status of family nudism, particularly in your area.

I am convinced that family nudists are here to stay. The traditional nudist park is a campground and it remains to be seen if the younger generation will continue to find RV parks and tent camping a meaningful outlet for social nudity. I love camping and I hope that there will always be people who love being nude in nature.

Here in Georgia we have one swinger resort that is so flagrant about it that AANR is no longer affiliated with them. Another resort, we'll call Resort #2, remains in the AANR fold, but sometimes has riske parties at night. Sexual solicitation is forbidden at this resort and days are G-rated. In the trailers at night, there are reportedly some couples who engage in swinging. I never stick around to find out.

I have several friends who left Resort #2 for Resort #3 because they do stay overnight and were offended by what they saw after hours. Resort #3 is not perfect, but they are strongly family oriented and from the top down are committed to providing a wholesome environment for kids. The difference is so obvious, it would put your mind at ease. Resort #4 is a quiet campground and I never hear folks say anything else about it good or bad. We have no nudist resorts in South Georgia. There is one in north Florida near the state line. It is frequently enjoyed by folks passing through on their way south or north.

I don't know if you are Christians, but several resorts have Sunday worship in the summer, either al fresco, a room or in a chapel. I know of one or two resorts that have a chaplain.

Lastly, let me say that the future of nudism is what we make of it. Stay in touch with Christian nudists and other nudists who want their resort to be a good place for families with kids.

If you are Christian, I'd like to invite you to a gathering in Virginia this summer for Christian nudists. Visit The 2004 Christian Nudist Convocation Web page (http://www.cheef.com/cnnf/cnc/) for more information.

[Uurgu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Paul and Carol,

This Uurgu guy (aka Newton) is not a nudist, has taken several opportunities to lambast us, and presumeably has no experience with social nudism other than his "experience" of reading a few alarmist posts on this forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not a nudist, but often nude around others.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There are problems at some resorts, but the character of a resort isn't too hard to discover if you visit their Web site, read a brochure or talk to people who've been there. There's no need to walk into something blind.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problems at some resorts are often ignored by the movement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If you have met Cheef Dan, (he lives near Philadelphia) he can give you a fair appraisal of the status of family nudism, particularly in your area.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If he is a nudist, how objective would he be?
Would it not be good to consider the opinions of Christians outside of nudism as well? Especially Christians outside of nudism who come from a background where nakedness is pretty normal. If such a person existed, and such a person spoke unfavorably about nudism, would you just write him off as 'lambasting' you?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I am convinced that family nudists are here to stay. The traditional nudist park is a campground and it remains to be seen if the younger generation will continue to find RV parks and tent camping a meaningful outlet for social nudity. I love camping and I hope that there will always be people who love being nude in nature.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It may surprise you to know that this kind of living has been around for a long time but it was not "nudist".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Here in Georgia we have one swinger resort that is so flagrant about it that AANR is no longer affiliated with them. Another resort, we'll call Resort #2, remains in the AANR fold, but sometimes has riske parties at night. Sexual solicitation is forbidden at this resort and days are G-rated. In the trailers at night, there are reportedly some couples who engage in swinging. I never stick around to find out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By your own admission there are major problems within nudism. Maybe some lambasting is in order by those like you within nudism who are fairly conservative minded. Won't you take a stand against it with me instead of this?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I have several friends who left Resort #2 for Resort #3 because they do stay overnight and were offended by what they saw after hours. Resort #3 is not perfect, but they are strongly family oriented and from the top down are committed to providing a wholesome environment for kids. The difference is so obvious, it would put your mind at ease. Resort #4 is a quiet campground and I never hear folks say anything else about it good or bad. We have no nudist resorts in South Georgia. There is one in north Florida near the state line. It is frequently enjoyed by folks passing through on their way south or north.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dont think that a few nice resorts make the whole movement OK; they do not. The issues must be dealt with rather than just overlooking them for a few good examples. Paul and Carol cited the bleak article from a magazine; I am just providing good solid reasons as to why this condition exists. The issue has already been recognized by a nudist publication.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't know if you are Christians, but several resorts have Sunday worship in the summer, either al fresco, a room or in a chapel. I know of one or two resorts that have a chaplain.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, we would not go to church in the nude, mainly because nakedness has been so tainted by nudism that it is counterproductive in many situations, not all, but many.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Lastly, let me say that the future of nudism is what we make of it. Stay in touch with Christian nudists and other nudists who want their resort to be a good place for families with kids.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is still much to face within nudism and it needs to start with folks within nudism who are willing to take a stand against it. See my previous posts in this thread for the best way to begin. Recognize the source of the problem and then go from there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If you are Christian, I'd like to invite you to a gathering in Virginia this summer for Christian nudists. Visit The 2004 Christian Nudist Convocation Web page (http://www.cheef.com/cnnf/cnc/) for more information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Christians are by definition released from the shame of sin; therefore, there is no need to be labeled as a nudist. It is kind of like being called a born again Christian. A bit redundant, and there is no need to buy into an -ism about clotheslessness to be complete as a believer.

[Qball]

I decided to head out to my local club/resort/camp today for a little research, so I could speak from a more informed point of view.

First the positives: The pool and hot tub were both first rate, and there is another pool soon to be opening. There is also a decent excercise room and a spacious hall for social events. In talking to people I met, I heard of plans for a sit down restaurant "coming soon." The facility is located a mere 25-35 minutes from were I live, so there is a high conveinence factor. The staff members I spoke to were very friendly, welcoming, and informative. Definately made a solid and professional first impression. There were a number of children around, and if family nudism is what you're looking for I think the environment would be very much what you're looking for.

Now the negatives: In many ways I felt like I was an interloper in someone else's home. At the end of the day, this facility is a trailer park, with people who reside there year round. Perhaps in the high season this would be less of a factor, but despite the friendliness of those I met, I really felt like I had invited myself into someone else's home. Finally, I felt like the registration process was needlessly intrusive, and wasn't real thrilled with the amount of information recorded. If I were a resident I would probably feel quite differently, however, because I would be more concerned about security and who was being allowed to wander my neighborhood.

I spent most of my visit alternating between the pool and hot tub. As per above, both were fantastic! There was plenty of room to swim some laps, and I had a very pleasant conversation with some folks in the tub. There was a snack bar with a decent menu and low prices, and I had dinner there. The price was $35 for a day, which I think was fair, espescially if one arrived earlier than I did.

I think I would/will return, if for no other reason than to work on an all over tan. A day at the camp would be less than a tanning session, with some swimming and socializing being a bonus.

Now, as to whether or not this changed any of my opinions on attracting younger people to naturism/nudism/what have you: I don't think it really did.

Facilites like this obviously serve a need, and from what I saw I can't imagine one that would be much better at it. I remain pretty much unconvinced that family facilities are ever going to attract large numbers of younger people. 20 somethings don't usually patronize the restaurants and other businesses that emphasize a family atmosphere, and I think it unreasonable to expect them to be attracted to a naturist facility that puts a strong emphasis on families.

For me a beach would be a better option because:
1-I'd be more relaxed, not feeling like I was on someone's front lawn.
2-You can come and go without anyone writing down your home address.
3-Depending on the beach, I could combine most of the camp activities with fishing, a favorite hobby, plus swimming in the ocean.

I hope nobody reads this as a bashing of the club/camps. Although it isn't perfect, I fully expect to return and patronize them in the future. It offers a clean, safe environment in which to be nude. They are GREAT at what they do, I just don't see it as a big draw for younger people.

[Sundance36]

Sorry guys I haven't been here in along time. Thought I'd puy my two cents in. When I was in my teens, I was courious about nudes. But always wondered how groups were formed, Or where to go. I went to our local river bed skinny dipping.

Skinny dipping was fun, but how did people find resorts, Before computers. I probably would have started yrs ago. But the perception of an man in his twentys or thirties, was either a sex Maniac or a pervert. I've been to derert Shadows a couple times and mostly saw people 40+. At our local beach has a calif university close by. There are quite a few younger people. many in 20's more in their 30's to 50 bracket.
very few teanagers, They may worry about their peers at school. Finding out what and where they go. On their weekends I do notice several textile teens around but I'm sure they are courious. Maybe later in their life they will try. After all how many that people that attend a beach or resort. Worry about a neighbor or a peer at work finding out that they go there. I met several teachers at D.S. I'm sure they they would not go to one of their local beaches.
What would their students say if they caught them. Or a kid whom the teacher had trouble with could dammage their employment. All In all I belive that the computer will enhance the naturist lifestyle. After all I have seen many courious people convert. After visiting a chat room of nudist. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif