Bush's New Iraq Strategy

[hm0504]

President Bush announced his new Iraq strategy on January 10.

[Boreas]

I am not sure why the definition of insanity being "when you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results" keeps going through my head in relation to what they have said about Bush's "new" strategy.

[usmc1]

OK, let's see if I've got this. We're going to escalate our force by 17,000 combat and 4,500 support troops and <STRIKE>invade</STRIKE>, reinvade Baghdad, and with a whole new crew of yes men, this time we'll be successful.

And we're doing this because if we don't the dominoes in the Middle East will all tumble and become Al Quiada terrorists.

I only wish I had a videotape of one of LBJ's escalation speeches under which I could lay Bush's aduio from last night. And vice versa.

And those who say, well, what's your alternative. I think both Murtha and Biden have put outstanding alternatives out there.

Were the consequences not so tragically dire, I would have laughed myself sick at the spectacle of a madman beating himself on the head with a ball peen hammer to relieve the headache.

That there's kinda, sorta whut ah think, y'know?

[Baron Lake]

"new" strategy?

Sen Kennedy wondered today why Georgie took 8 monthes for his latest "re-evaulation". I think it took him that long to find 2 generals stupid enough to agree with him.
b.l.

[Naturist Mark]

I am not sure why the definition of insanity being "when you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting the same results" keeps going through my head

I think it is "Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."

And yes, the 'surge' strategy has been tried several times before.

The important part of the speech that was not as much commented upon is the warnings to Iran and the dropping of the former language that we would seek diplomatic solutions to our problems with Iran.

Couple that with the overnight assault on an Iranian consulate by American troops (hmmm... didn't our troubles with Iran START because of their assault on American consular property?).

This speech was not about Iraq. There is no new strategy in Iraq. We are putting more troops into Iraq because we need them close to Iran. The "decider" wants a brand new war.

-Mark

[jax]

Bush should be impeach, he lied about WMD and he knew it. How many more have to die over a civil war. We can't be the policemen of the world. The USA has WMD what would we do if some country came over here.

[Boreas]

I think it is "Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."

Yep, you are right! I think I shall go and fix that now!

[LamontCranston]

It'd be a nice service if some institution in the news media figured out what's going on.

Far too many misdirection puzzle pieces out there and all the *investigative journalists* can do is point and laugh.

Anyone else wondering what the other 140,000 troops are doing day-to-day? What's being shipped, built and protected?

How many ships of the British and US Navy are supervising the tanker flow in and out of the Persian Gulf?

Why is Saudi Arabia pleased with all this?

If Al Sadr wasn't on the deck of 52 cards, why do we care about him now? After him there will be another evil-doer. Shifting objectives divert attention from.... what exactly?

Here's hoping there's a Woodward and Bernstien out there seeking the truth instead of a few ratings points.

[nacktman]

New?

Strategy?

When was there ever any "strategy" to begin with?

Boreas and Mark got it right ... clinical insanity doesn't have a written definition in the Psychology Dictionary any longer it has a picture of the shrub instead!

[hm0504]

Originally posted by Baron Lake:
"new" strategy?

Sen Kennedy wondered today why Georgie took 8 monthes for his latest "re-evaulation". I think it took him that long to find 2 generals stupid enough to agree with him.
b.l.

I fully agree that this "new strategy" is an old coat of paint on an "old strategy", but I chose to use the term anyway as that is what it is generally being called.

As I read through the speech, I saw again the juxtaposition in the middle of it of 9/11 and Iraq -- not Afghanistan -- and his mention of past victory in Afghanistan at the end doesn't align with reality either. This is a President who still cannot be honest and straight-forward. God help America and the world.

[oldbob]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:

The important part of the speech that was not as much commented upon is the warnings to Iran and the dropping of the former language that we would seek diplomatic solutions to our problems with Iran.

Couple that with the overnight assault on an Iranian consulate by American troops (hmmm... didn't our troubles with Iran START because of their assault on American consular property?).


-Mark

Our troubles with Iran actually began in the fifties when the CIA organized the overthrow of a democratically elected president and installed the Shah of Iran. Sadly, the United States government has favored democracies elsewhere only when the results of the elections suit the U. S. government's purposes.

Bob

[hm0504]

The Bush Doctrine: No matter how far down the wrong road you go, keep going.

That sums up the president's new and improved strategy for the Iraq War.

...
We know what Bush will do, so forget Bush. The real question is what others will do about Bush. The focal point of this disastrous war now shifts to the Democrats, Republican members of Congress and presidential hopefuls, the government of Nouri al-Maliki, and the few allies the U.S. has in this mission.

...



Read Michael Harris' latest article "Democrats must rein in Bush":
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael...7/01/12/3320078.html (http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael/2007/01/12/3320078.html)

[hm0504]

Looks like the Taliban are doing their own new surges in Afghanistan.

"U.S.: Taliban push after accord":
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/01/16/us.afghanistan.ap/index.html

[usmc1]

Capital Sources: A Marine's Call for Drawdown
A 22-year-old Marine on why he wants Congress to bring the troops home.
WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Dan Ephron
Newsweek
Updated: 11:20 a.m. CT Jan 15, 2007

Jan. 15, 2007 - If there was one constituency President Bush could count on to back the war in Iraq through the past four years, it was members of the military. Now, their support is also ebbing. A poll conducted recently by Army Times, a commercial publication, showed only 35 percent of service members approve of the way Bush is handling the war, down from 63 percent in 2004. When asked if success in Iraq was likely, 50 percent said yes, compared to 83 percent two years ago.

In a sign of the erosion, more than 1,000 soldiers will urge their congressmen in a written appeal this week to "support the prompt withdrawal" of all American forces from Iraq. "Staying in Iraq will not work and is not worth the price," the statement says. Anti-war appeals are common these days but this one is different: all the signatories are active duty soldiers and some have served in Iraq.

One of the appeal's organizers is Liam Madden, a 22-year-old Marine Corp. Sergeant now based Quantico, VA. He spoke to NEWSWEEK's Dan Ephron. Excerpts:

NEWSWEEK: How did [the appeal] start?
Liam Madden: I was visiting a friend last summer stationed in Norfolk, Virginia, who found a flyer for a talk on being active duty and opposing the war. David Cortright, the author of “Soldiers in Revolt”, about [G.I.] dissent during the Vietnam era, gave the talk. I think people there all had one thing in common: We all thought that if you feel strongly about something, you can't just rest on your laurels and hope things get better. You have to do something. We started coordinating with each other on how to affect change in Iraq.

What's wrong with the [Iraq] war?
It's a war we never should have launched in the first place. It's been incompetently executed and it's brought no benefit to anyone involved, including the American people and the Iraqis. It's just people dying for no benefit.


You enlisted in 2003, when the war was imminent. If this was your view, why did you sign up?
I enlisted because I needed some direction. I didn't think I was going to deal with college well, I wasn't mature enough and would have wasted my opportunity there. I enlisted for personal direction and for the opportunities the Marine Corps offered. I don't think I knew for sure we were going to invade based on the evidence that was presented.

How did you react when you were told you would be going to Iraq?
I felt it was my job and it's something I would do to the best of my ability. I wasn't going to allow myself to make a big deal about it. It was part of my contract. It was important for me to complete four years in the Marine Corps to the best of my ability. So the issue [of whether] to go wasn't even a question.

Tell me about the moment you found out you'd be deployed there.
We were in Japan. Our scheduled deployment was going to be to the Philippines and we were in the middle of a big exercise preparing for that. One day, they told us not to bother because we'd be in a ship on the way to Iraq within a week. It just stunned us all.

This was around September, 2004. How fully formed were your opinions on the war by then?
I had the same opinions but to a lesser degree. At that point, I think it was still salvageable in my eyes. I didn't think it was going to be mismanaged as badly as it has been or that we were necessarily committed to the five to 10 year ordeal that it now seems we are. I thought it was, get in, do the job and get out.

What did you see in your seven months there?
The main mission of my unit was to patrol long stretches of road. I didn't get to interact with people all that often. My primary job was ensuring communications went well.... But we cleared the city in Haditha and facilitated elections. To my discouragement, neither of those things really helped stabilize Iraq. I oppose the war in Iraq for reasons anyone who's paying attention might oppose the war. It's not that I came back traumatized. It's an illegal war. It's against U.N. Security Council resolutions we helped write. It's costing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and billion dollars. It's unconscionable to me.


What will you do if your unit redeploys to Iraq?
My contract ends soon but there's a good chance I would be called up in the inactive reserves. They're in need for them. Technically, I would have to go if I'm called up but what I would do depends on where I was in my life and what I had to lose. It would force me to make a very serious life judgment.

What risks are active duty soldiers taking by signing the appeal?
We're not asking anyone to do anything illegal. We're asking soldiers and service members to call on their Congressmen to end the war. Congress has the power of the purse. They don't have to continue to fund the war. The people who are signing the appeal are active duty, active reservists and active guardsmen. These are people who don't hate the military but they oppose this policy.

But aren't you barred from signing political petitions while on active duty?
We can't distribute petitions if they're about war. But this is not a petition. It's an appeal to our Congressmen, which is protected under the military whistleblowers act.

What's been the reaction in your unit?
I've had a lot of positive feedback, even among people who don't agree. They respect my right to have my opinion. That's the general tone. There was one negative response. After my first press conference, a really media savvy high-ranking officer in the Marine Corps found my name and number and told me how much he disapproved of what I was doing, saying I was a coward and I was aiding the enemy. But I ended up having a dialogue with this guy. It evolved into something pretty positive in emails for a couple of weeks.

How do you respond to those charges—that you're aiding the enemy and demoralizing troops?
How does what I'm doing embolden the enemy? I think you embolden the enemy by deploying hundreds of thousands of troops to the Middle East and validating the view that we're imperialists. We're asking for a reasonable end to this conflict.

[hm0504]

Thanks for post that usmc1.

Usually, Bush can count on an appearance with the troops for a good photo-op but apparently the recent one, a post "new strategy" speech at Fort Benning, didn't go according to plan as Bush received a distinctly tepid response from the soldiers there. More about the damage control:
1) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2007011100389.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/11/AR2007011100389.html)
2) http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2007/01/11/a-short-leash-at-fort-benning/

[hm0504]

Good article on Afghanistan referencing General Sir Rupert Smith:
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/177773

And who's this General Sir Rupert Smith that Albinus is so fond of?:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23112-1779750,00.html

[gymnasthorse]

I'm guessing I'm the ONLY republicin here. I full support Pr.Bush. Not that I agree with him. I am dead seat agenst war.... but if we were to take every one out or there would be disasterist resolts. No I don't agree with every thing Pr. Bush does, but he is out president and he needs our respect!

[Naturist Mark]

he is out president and he needs our respect!

Perhaps if he had done even one thing right. But after 6 years of being wrong every single time ... enough.

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

Take a look at this video by American soldiers driving a Hummvee through traffic in Baghdad - Humvee Traffic Driving in Baghdad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yco1deXOzN8) (no violence, no blood)

They aren't being @ssholes, they aren't bumping into vehicle after vehicle for fun, they have to behave like this to avoid attack, they know every assignment could be their last. Is it any wonder the Iraqi people want us to leave even though they are in the middle of a civil war?

Consider the stress these soldiers are under, treating every normal interaction as a threat - which they MUST do. Now consider that many of them are on their 3rd or even 4th tours of duty over there. By this point in the Vietnam war we had had nearly a million soldiers in and out of country, but in this war the number is only a fraction of that because we keep sending the same people back there! Is it any wonder that PTSD is epidemic - an epidemic the administration is addressing by using political interference to reduce the number that get diagnosed, and by reducing veteran benefits.

By this point in the Vietnam war, nearly everyone had a family member, neighbor or friend who had served in Vietnam. Everyone had a connection to the troops and the war. Not in this war. Most people are not directly affected, we have made no sacrifice, we aren't even paying for the war with our taxes - we are leaving that to our great grandchildren. Bush keeps sending the same men and women back into the grinder. If they manage to come home uninjured, or not too severely injured, they are put under tremendous pressure to re-enlist. Not to achieve our mission - they don't know what the mission is any more than the rest of us do, but in order to help their fellow soldiers - they do everything for each other, because they KNOW no one else will, not the government that is pursuing unseen goals and cares not a whit for the serviceman, not the public who doesn't know what the hell is going on - the public who thinks we are supporting the troops by putting ribbon magnets on our cars, meanwhile the troops, 4 years into the war still only have 40% of the gear they are supposed to have - that 2.5 $Billion dollars a week is NOT going to support the troops. No one cares, after all they were volunteers! Nope, the troops know that except for their families, the only people who care for them, who look out for them, is them. So they go back to take care of each other, THAT is their mission.


Well guess what. More and more Americans DO GET IT, even though our government lies to us and the media is afraid to tell us. Nearly half a million people marched for peace in Washington last week. The media obediently <STRIKE>reported</STRIKE> lied that it was only a few thousand. But after 6 years of lies, and 4 years of war without purpose, the uninformed public is finally wising up. The troops aren't going to be on their own for much longer, and those bastards in Washington who don't give a damn about them had better get the hell out of the way.

Winning Hearts and Minds (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/04/winning-hearts-minds/)
The Washington Iraq Peace March: A Protest to Be Proud of (http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/47339/)

[hm0504]

Naturist Mark wrote:
...
By this point in the Vietnam war, nearly everyone had a family member, neighbor or friend who had served in Vietnam. Everyone had a connection to the troops and the war. Not in this war. Most people are not directly affected, we have made no sacrifice, we aren't even paying for the war with our taxes - we are leaving that to our great grandchildren.
...


Tsk tsk, Mark. Don't you recall that the President has asked the American people to support the war by shopping and driving more. Despite being up past their eyeballs in debt, Americans (and Canadians) have generally heeded the call to drive to the malls in SUVs and whatever and buy cr*p from China and elsewhere that we don't need. Remember, 9/11 changed everything; in past wars, people had to cut back so resources could go to the war effort; today, in this new type of war, we must consume excessive resources to keep the war o' terror going and going and going and ...

[hm0504]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">he is out president and he needs our respect!

Perhaps if he had done even one thing right. But after 6 years of being wrong every single time ... enough.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't there some saying that respect must be earned.

[usmc1]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">3114</span>

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_RED">3118</span>

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif
Plus UK = 132
Plus Others = 124

Plus Nearly 55K "Casualties"

[usmc1]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif<span class="ev_code_RED">3124</span>

When is enough, enough? We are failing our young men and women who have been sent to fight. The failure is not Congress's, the failures are not Bush's. The failures are yours and mine, because we, as citizens, despite all the evidence to the contrary, common sense, and all the weight of history allowed ourselves to succumb to fear, partisenship, and outright ignorance in order to permit an unquestioning rush to war without any real+ debate or discussion.

Taps;
Day is done, gone the sun,
From the hills, from the lake,
From the skies.
All is well, safely rest,
God is nigh.

Go to sleep, peaceful sleep,
May the soldier or sailor,
God keep.
On the land or the deep,
Safe in sleep.

Love, good night, Must thou go,
When the day, And the night
Need thee so?
All is well. Speedeth all
To their rest.

Fades the light; And afar
Goeth day, And the stars
Shineth bright,
Fare thee well; Day has gone,
Night is on.

Thanks and praise, For our days,
'Neath the sun, Neath the stars,
'Neath the sky,
As we go, This we know,
God is nigh.

[Naturist Mark]

Eric Williams thinks he knows why Bush went with the 'Surge' strategy despite all the expert opposition to it in the Military and Intelligence agencies:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/ericwilliams215.jpg (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-williams/what-bush-hears_b_41351.html)

-Mark

[usmc1]

While some of you were enjoying Valentine's day, four more young Americans died in Iraq.

<span class="ev_code_RED">3132</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

What I'm hearing about the "Surge" is that it does not represent an additional recruitment, training and deployment of new troops as one might think.

It is delaying rotation out, speeding up rotation in, and redeploying existing troops in the region to create an inflated head-count.

The game of three card monte with the lives of our GI's continues. Thankfully, Murtha and Pelosi are making noise as though they might seriously organize and mobilize a serious stand-off with Bush.

[nacktman]

Aptly portrays the inner non-workings of the shrub's diseased mind, now dosen't it?

Just move the numbers around in the ledger book until they look good and pocket the difference.
Just who has those Billions of dollars "missing" in Iraq anyway?!?!?!

Hey wait aminute, isn't that what the good ol'boys over at Enron did and screwed people out of their life's work?

Meanwhile as noted <span class="ev_code_RED">3132 and counting</span> of our servicemen and women have died in the shrub's catastroph-fu(k that is Iraq. Leave us also not to forget the deaths of our servicemen and women in the "other" cluster-butt gouging in Afghanistan, as well.

[usmc1]

Bush the liar and unfortunately still the decider

by Leon Fisher, January 16, 2007

Bush and his Neocon handlers should no longer expect the backing of the American people, after having lied to justify the invasion of Iraq, after asking the military to continue fighting a war that Bush has no intention of ending.

His claim that the killing in Iraq could become much worse if American troops are withdrawn is ludicrous, when 3000 plus American military are dead, tens of thousands seriously wounded, and up to a hundred thousand Iraqis have been killed since 2003. He is asking for more of the same, and wasting more taxpayers' money when billions have already been squandered and stolen, at a time when the average American is struggling with low wages, and rising taxes.

While the President likes to project the image of himself as a strong leader, not to be deterred by the criticism of his detractors, he has accomplished nothing. In fact, since Bush stole office in the Election of 2000 and again in 2004, his policies have alienated America around the World.

The governments of America's long-time European Allies such as France and Germany have openly disagreed with Bush, with millions of their citizens taking to the streets in protest. His so called War on Terror is nothing of the sort, and should be called what it really is, The War for Oil and Israel against Islam! Bush, through his actions and words, has succeeded in alienating much of the Islamic World, creating fertile ground for increased support for Muslim extremist groups.

In Bush's "Surge" speech to the nation he accused Syria and Iran of supplying weapons to insurgent forces fighting against American troops in Iraq, and announced he would be sending another carrier battle group to join one already on station in the area, to help interdict this flow of supplies. He was sending Patriot missile batteries as well.

While a carrier battle group is a powerful offensive weapon, it is of little use in fighting an insurgency, while land based aircraft and helicopters already in Iraq are fully capable of interdicting the transport of supplies coming across the borders of Iran or Syria. Patriot missiles are designed to intercept enemy aircraft and tactical missiles such as the Scud, neither of which are used by anti-American Iraqi insurgents and militias.

Both the aircraft carriers and Patriot missiles will be used to attack targets in Iran and Syria, and defend against any Iranian missile attacks on American military targets or attacks on Israel. Washington and Tel Aviv have been calling for an attack on Iran and Syria for years, and even a continued propaganda campaign accusing Iran and Syria of everything from aiding terrorists to a program to develop nuclear weapons has not been able to sway American public opinion.

Both Bush and the Zionists realize that the time for an attack against Iran and Syria is running out, as a growing majority of Americans are fed up with the war. Before the new Congress is forced to end Americas military role in Iraq, Bush will try to move against the Iranians and the Syrians while the appropriate military assets are still in place.

This is the last throw for the Zionists and their Neocon infiltrators in Congress and the White House, who through their powerful Washington based lobby, AIPAC, have been frantically pushing Washington to enlarge the war in the Middle East.

However, the American people, distracted though they are, have had enough of a war which has become, even to some of the most one-time enthusiastic war supporters, no longer in Americas interests.

Most Americans want an end to this war, while Bush wants more. This mindset has resulted in a new Congress, which hopefully will resist Bush and AIPAC, and vote to withdraw American troops as soon as possible.

Bush, as we know, will act regardless of the will of the American people, and try to provoke the Iranians and Syrians into war. The arrest of members of an Iranian diplomatic mission in Northern Iraq by the American military is one such provocation.

The Bush Administration, posing as the legitimately-elected government of the People, is a criminal entity which has seized and maintained power through the manipulation of two national elections in order to carry out an agenda based on the Project for the New American Century, the blueprint for American and Israeli hegemony over the oil producing nations of the Middle East.

In order to advance this agenda, the rogue government of GW Bush is lying to and conspiring to betray the people to whom he feigns to represent. This Administration has lied about everything from the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, to the invasion of Iraq. It is no wonder that a majority of Americans no longer believe anything he has to say.

Bush still has two years left to endanger America, and like a wounded beast backed into a corner, this is when he's the most dangerous.

[missouriboy]

Both Bush and the Zionists realize that the time for an attack against Iran and Syria is running out...
This is the last throw for the Zionists and their Neocon infiltrators in Congress and the White House, who through their powerful Washington based lobby, AIPAC, have been frantically pushing Washington to enlarge the war in the Middle East ... in order to carry out an agenda for the Israeli hegemony over the oil producing nations of the Middle East. (Emphasis added.) Well, at last someone other than Charley Reese, and a few others, has openly identified the force behind Bush's actions. Note -- that force doesn't just control Bush, per se... it controls White House Mid-East policy, always, no matter who is currently occupying the Oval Office.

Poor Leon Fisher. He will now be branded with the career-ending epithet, "anti-Semite."

[usmc1]

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Attack on U.S. base kills 2 GIs
Suicide bomber, gunmen strike combat post; no let-up in blasts in Baghdad
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:38 a.m. CT Feb 19, 2007

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents launched an attack on a U.S. combat post on Monday, sending in a suicide bomber and clashing with American troops, the military and residents said. Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 17 wounded, the military said.

The assault began with a suicide bomber exploding a vehicle outside the base north of Baghdad, said the military statement. It gave no further details beyond the number of dead and wounded. Residents said U.S. forces fought with insurgents after the suicide bomber tried to break through barriers around the base.

Meantime, a string of bombings killed 10 people Monday in the Baghdad area one day after a massive car bomb attack in a Shiite area market delivered the first major blow to the U.S.-led security crackdown.

Civilians slain
Five people died and 11 were wounded when a bomb exploded on a public bus headed for the mostly Shiite area of Karradah in central Baghdad, police reported.

Meanwhile, a roadside bomb killed three policemen in the Shiite area of Zafraniyah in southeastern Baghdad, wounding two other people, including a civilian, police said.

And in Mahmoudiya, 20 miles south of the capital, a car bomb went off among auto repair shops, killing two and wounding two, police said.

Mahmoudiya is mostly Shiite with Sunnis living in villages around the community and has long been a flashpoint for sectarian violence.

The scattered blasts, which occurred during the morning rush hour, occurred one day after a massive car bomb attack in an outdoor market.

Police said at least 63 people died in the attack in the mostly Shiite area of New Baghdad. Scores were injured as extremists sent a bloody calling card to officials boasting that militant factions were on the run.

Nearly 130 people were injured. Another person was killed in a car bombing Sunday in the Shiite militia stronghold of Sadr City.

Elsewhere, the U.S. military announced Monday that a U.S. Marine was killed two days earlier during combat operations in Anbar province, a Sunni insurgent hotspot west of the capital.


'Increasing desperation'
The latest attacks were a sobering reminder of the huge challenges confronting any effort to rattle the well-armed and well-hidden insurgents.

Just a few hours before the weekend blasts, Lt. Gen. Abboud Qanbar led reporters on a tour of the neighborhood near the marketplace and promised to “chase the terrorists out of Baghdad.” On Saturday, the Iraqi spokesman for the plan, Brig. Gen. Qassim Moussawi, said violence had plummeted 80 percent in the capital.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned the bombing as a desperate act by “terrorists” and “criminals” who sense they are being squeezed.

“These crimes confirm the defeat of these perpetrators and their failure in confronting our armed forces, which are determined to cleanse the dens of terrorism,” al-Maliki said in a statement.

U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said the bombings underscore the “increasing desperation felt by criminals” and would only serve to “galvanize Iraqi forces and their coalition partners.”

Sunday was by far the deadliest day since the security sweeps began last week. On Thursday, a string of car bombs killed seven civilians on the first full day of the house-to-house searches for weapons and suspected militants.

The U.S.-led teams have faced limited direct defiance as they set up checkpoints and comb neighborhoods. But that could change as they move into more volatile sections. The next could be Sadr City, a stronghold of the Mahdi Army militia loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Iran, Syria borders reopen
U.S. soldiers pressed closer to Sadr City and the reception changed noticeably. In previous days, Shiite families opened their doors to welcome the troops — feeling that the American presence would be a buffer against feared attacks from Sunni militia.

On Sunday, in areas closer to Sadr City, parents slapped away the candy and lollipops given by American soldiers.

“The Baghdad security plan is very important to push Iraq ahead,” said Haider al-Obeidi, a parliament member from the Dawa party of the prime minister al-Maliki.

Meanwhile, borders with Iran and Syria — shut for three days as the plan got under way — reopened Sunday. But new and strict rules will apply.

Moussawi said crossing points to the two nations would be open for only several hours a day and under “intense observation.”

The United States and allies claim Iraqi militants receive aid and supplies from Iran, including parts for lethal roadside bombs targeting U.S. forces. Iran denies any role in trafficking weapons.

In Buhriz, a Sunni-dominated town about 35 miles north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi soldiers kicked in doors and scoured homes, but most dwellings were eerily empty.

Soldiers confiscated new Iraqi army uniforms in a building not known to house troops, along with a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and AK-47 magazines. There has been growing suspicion that militants have posed as Iraqi soldiers in some attacks and ambushes.

In another house, medical supplies were scattered about — saline bottles, IV bags, syringes — in what soldiers believe was a makeshift aid station for insurgents.

[usmc1]

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[usmc1]

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[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_RED">3160</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

[CharlieMike]

Seems to be working.

[usmc1]

Wounded Soldiers Told Not to Talk to Media

and if you're keeping score <span class="ev_code_RED">32,544</span> Iraq war non-mortal casualties http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sick.gif

By E&P Staff

Published: February 28, 2007 12:00 PM ET

NEW YORK Wounded soldiers being treated at Walter Reed Hospital have been told by their superiors that they will now have to be up at 6:00 a.m. every morning for an inspection an hour later, and that they are no longer allowed to talk with members of the press, according to the Army Times newspaper.

The article says that there is speculation that these new rules are retribution by the military the recent Washington Post exposé on conditions at the hospital. Such morning inspections are reportedly very unusual after soldiers have finished with basic training.

The soldiers were told by a commanding officer that they now must go through the chain of command when identifying and reporting problems (such as mice or mold) in their living areas, as well as when they ask for help in filling out paperwork, according to the article.

The Army Times reports that a first sergeant at the hospital has been relieved of his duty as well.

Last week, in three articles, Washington Post reporters Dana Priest and Anne Hull exposed dreadful conditions at the supposed "crown jewel of military medicine"-- Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The story sparked a controversy into the treatment of wounded veterans.

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_RED">3166</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

[usmc1]

I hope everyone had a great weekend and are off to a pleasant week.

However, somewhere in this great land of ours, as we go about our business and ponder how to spend our tax refund, a mother is sobbing or a child is trying to figure out what daddy is gone forever means.

A father, with an agonized heart remembers a small childs glee at meeting him at the door each night as he came home from work. A wife wonders how she will find the strength to face the rest of her life. Comrades in arms will carry their buddy's agonized death wails with them into eternity. Brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, friends and neighbors will mourn the lose of another young soul.

They are lives not numbers. Demand that it stop!

<span class="ev_code_Red"> 3184 </span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

Y'awl have a nice day, y'hear?

[nacktman]

Shameful!

[nacktman]

The "real" New Strategy!

[hm0504]

Originally posted by CharlieMike:
Seems to be working.

Please elaborate. I haven't heard much "surge" news since its announcement. How do you know it seems to be working. What are your indicators?

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by usmc1:
I hope everyone had a great weekend and are off to a pleasant week.

However, somewhere in this great land of ours, as we go about our business and ponder how to spend our tax refund, a mother is sobbing or a child is trying to figure out what daddy is gone forever means.

A father, with an agonized heart remembers a small childs glee at meeting him at the door each night as he came home from work. A wife wonders how she will find the strength to face the rest of her life. Comrades in arms will carry their buddy's agonized death wails with them into eternity. Brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, friends and neighbors will mourn the lose of another young soul.

They are lives not numbers. Demand that it stop!

<span class="ev_code_Red"> 3184 </span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

Y'awl have a nice day, y'hear?

And don't forget the other 57,805-63,573 dead (the last time I checked):

www.iraqbodycount.net (http://www.iraqbodycount.net)

Peace,
Kevin

[barenaked1]

The count is becoming a number that the current administration doesn't realize the impact on our perception of their failure.

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

And unfortunately, as you you can see from Tommy Franks statement ("WE don't Do Body counts") the top brass in charge of the Iraq fiasco are basically people there to do nothing but the beck and call of a guy named George Bush. So, for the fact that we have any sort of count of civilian casualties I think much much more credit is due to people outside of the military and outside of the
government. Perhaps the most inspiring and courageous example was a young woman named Marla Ruzicka who visited neighborhoods in Iraq and Afghanistan to find out the truth about the thousands of tragedies of these wars. She lost her own life in a car bombing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marla_Ruzicka

marlaruzicka.blogspot.com



Peace,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

"Le Dormeur du Val"
(The Sleeper in the Valley)
by Arthur Rimbaud

http://www.mamalisa.com/blog/?cat=172

Peace,
Kevin

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3188</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

From Smirking Chimp
Patty Murray: "We Are Fighting A War With No Cause"

By Bob Geiger
Created Mar 8 2007 - 11:09am

Senator Patty Murray (D-WA) went to the floor of the Senate on Tuesday and said something I really admire. I respect her words because she made a statement that falls, for some incredibly dumb reason, right into that category of words we dare not speak.

"In truth, we are fighting a war with no cause," said the Washington Senator.

Those are not easy words to say in a political environment where most Republicans will use them to say you're sleeping with Osama bin Laden and that you obviously love the terrorists, but Murray is right -- as was Barack Obama (D-IL) when he "slipped" and made the true statement that the needless troop deaths in Iraq are a waste.

I'm hopeful that by the time Murray runs for reelection in 2010, those words will make her look thoughtful and prescient and not be a truth that her Republican opponent can use to smear her good name.

Murray made the speech on the Senate floor earlier this week when she addressed the subject of funding for mental-health care for troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan and the extent to which the White House and Republican party all sport "support the troops" ribbons on their SUVs but have done nothing but lie them into war and hang them out to dry if they make it home.

Indeed, as Murray points out, the Bush administration has seen many reports over the years highlighting bad conditions in Veterans' medical care facilities and have shown that their pro-troop rhetoric doesn't extend to actually doing anything to help them.

"With minimal amounts of sleep, our service men and women work longer days than you and I can imagine. They see things none of us should ever witness: bodies blown to pieces, mutilation, the blood of their fellow soldiers on the streets of a country we have no place being," said Murray on Tuesday. "All of this is for a war we were misled into supporting. There were no weapons of mass destruction, Saddam Hussein was never connected to al Qaeda, and nobody can say we are spreading democracy to Iraq today."

"In truth, we are fighting a war with no cause."

And Murray was clear in laying the blame right at the doorstep of George W. Bush, who not only took our country into a needless war, but has resisted every attempt by Democrats to rescue our troops from this quagmire, while his Republican attack dogs have impugned the courage and patriotism of those who have tried.

"As Americans across this country -- but especially Senators -- it is our solemn duty, as those who have not seen the horrors of battle, to care for those who have," said Murray. "Even more so, as the one who sent Americans to Iraq, it is the duty of the President. Providing mental health care for our children falls under this duty -- a duty that, sadly, this President has failed to fulfill."

The three-term Washington Senator also took the time to rebuke the other side of the aisle, taking Republicans to task for doing nothing to truly support the troops while providing massive cover for Bush on the Iraq war during the previous, do-nothing Congress.

Here's Murray:

"I came to the floor this morning to remind my colleagues -- my Republican colleagues and this President -- actions speak louder than words. Talk does not improve the quality of the living conditions, and it doesn't make adequate mental health care available. Talk is cheap. Eventually, after a lot of talk and no action, words catch up with you. That is what we are seeing today. The Bush administration says they have provided for our active-duty warriors and our Veterans, but story after story, report after report proves otherwise.

"Unfortunately, it is pretty clear to all of us now that from enlistment to retirement, this administration has failed our troops. It is time for us to take action. I look forward to working with all of my colleagues on this floor to have action and not just words. I don't want to see report after report, all this year long and a year from now, stories that continue. We have a responsibility, when we send men and women overseas to fight for us, that we are on this floor fighting for them."

Murray ended her speech by making sure that Democrats understand they too have a responsibility -- especially now holding the majority in both houses of Congress -- to speak up loudly about the situation in Iraq and to take action as the 9/11 Commission recommendations are debated this week.

"I call on all of my colleagues to step up at every step of the way as we approve bill after bill, supplemental budgets, authorization bills, to stand up and speak out for our troops and no longer ignore the reality of this war."

Kudos to Senator Murray for having the guts to speak hard words that, for whatever pathetic reason, seem to challenge the courage of people on both sides of the political aisle. Lives are being wasted and this is indeed a war with no cause whatsoever.

And although Patty Murray will undoubtedly be attacked for those words, it's refreshing to hear someone in Washington speak that reality.

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3195</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cry.gif

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by usmc1:
<span class="ev_code_Red">3195</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cry.gif
+64,000 civilians dead (maybe more)
(www.iraqbodycount.net) (http://www.iraqbodycount.net))
IMPEACH BUSH!!!
Kevin

[barenaked1]

Our adminstration has failed to live up to its 'promises'. Our troops cannot succeed without guidence & support and a clear focus to accomplish it's mission.
If someone can tell me what that really is. please let me know.

However, I feel I already know the answer.......

[usmc1]

What really is. OK, here's my take on it.

We successfully engaged in a preemptive war of invasion based on the moods and whims of a dry-drunk sociopath and the hobgoblins of the right. That war was justified by lies and misdirection and supported was generated by playing on the nation's fears and hysteria following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

Since our invasion was luannched under the most specious of legalities, most of the Western world demurred, and withheld support. Without world support, our post war occupation of a defeated and devastated Iraq has been extremely costly in life and limb, national prestige and honor, and depletion of our military and treasury.

One can play the name the name games and allot blame and accountability for failures, but the bottom line is that we cut a fat hog in the *** and are now trying to stuff the ***t back in the guts.

That's a brief synopsis of the reality.

[hm0504]

In my view, in the next Presidential election, the candidates must make crystal clear their position on continuing the Iraq war -- and the American people must make that issue -- not flag burning, not gay marriage, not eating with your fork in your right hand -- the deciding factor in how they vote. In short, the next Presidential election needs very much to be a decisive referendum on the Iraq war.

[nacktman]

In short, the next Presidential election needs very much to be a decisive referendum on the Iraq war.

You can count on it, Albinus. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/yes.gif

[Naturist Mark]

In short, the next Presidential election needs very much to be a decisive referendum on the Iraq war
If there is an election.

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In short, the next Presidential election needs very much to be a decisive referendum on the Iraq war
If there is an election. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last election was a referendum on the Iraq war--and unless the whole system is still too rigged for the many people in Congress who do still have some scrap of decency in them some sort of referendum appears to be taking shape--fingers crossed (with the nails already bitten off)--.
Libby's conviction, Alberto Gonzalez's own attempts to obstruct justice exposed out in the open--the unraveling of the regime may finally be taking place.
But if we really have to wait until the next Federal election for a referendum on the Iraq war--it will simply be too late--even the Pentagon is now calling this a civil war.
The concurrent referendum to that of the Iraq War is of course the Impeachment of Bush/Cheney and the firing of all their cronies. That's the only way to end government of the wealthy, connected and corrupt (and hypocritical and racist), by the wealthy, connected and corrupt (and hypocritical and racist), and for the wealthy, connected and corrupt (and hypocritical and racist)!
IMPEACH!!!
Kevin

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3203</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sick.gif

Here's one's story.

Gen. Petraeus and a High-Profile Suicide in Iraq
Col. Ted Westhusing, a West Point scholar, put a bullet in his head in Iraq after reporting widespread corruption. His suicide note -- complaining about human rights abuses and other crimes -- was addressed to his two commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, now leader of the U.S. "surge" effort in Iraq. It urged them to "Reevaluate yourselves....You are not what you think you are and I know it."

By Greg Mitchell

(March 14, 2007) -- The scourge of suicides among American troops in Iraq is a serious, and seriously underreported, problem, as this column has observed numerous times in the past three years. One of the few high-profile cases involved a much-admired Army colonel named Ted Westhusing.

A portrait of Westhusing written by T. Christian Miller for the Los Angeles Times in November 2005 (which I covered at the time) revealed that Westhusing, before putting a bullet through his head, had been deeply disturbed by abuses carried out by American contractors in Iraq, including allegations that they had witnessed or even participated in the murder of Iraqis.

His widow, asked by a friend what killed this West Point scholar, had replied simply: "Iraq."

Now, a new article reveals -- based on documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act -- that Westhusing's apparent suicide note included claims that his two commanders tolerated a mission based on "corruption, human right abuses and liars." One of those commanders: the new leader of the "surge" campaign in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus.

Westhusing, 44, had been found dead in a trailer at a military base near the Baghdad airport in June 2005, a single gunshot wound to the head. At the time, he was the highest-ranking officer to die in Iraq. The Army concluded that he committed suicide with his service pistol. Westhusing was an unusual case: “one of the Army's leading scholars of military ethics, a full professor at West Point who volunteered to serve in Iraq to be able to better teach his students. He had a doctorate in philosophy; his dissertation was an extended meditation on the meaning of honor,” Miller explained in his L.A. Times piece.

”So it was only natural that Westhusing acted when he learned of possible corruption by U.S. contractors in Iraq. A few weeks before he died, Westhusing received an anonymous complaint that a private security company he oversaw had cheated the U.S. government and committed human rights violations. Westhusing confronted the contractor and reported the concerns to superiors, who launched an investigation.

”In e-mails to his family, Westhusing seemed especially upset by one conclusion he had reached: that traditional military values such as duty, honor and country had been replaced by profit motives in Iraq, where the U.S. had come to rely heavily on contractors for jobs once done by the military.”

His death followed quickly. "He was sick of money-grubbing contractors," one official recounted. Westhusing said that "he had not come over to Iraq for this." After a three-month inquiry, investigators declared Westhusing's death a suicide.

Now, nearly 18 months after Miller's article, The Texas Observer this month has published a cover story by contributor Robert Bryce titled "I Am Sullied No More." Bryce covers much of the same ground paved by Miller but adds details on the Petraeus angle.

"When he was in Iraq, Westhusing worked for one of the most famous generals in the U.S. military, David Petraeus," Bryce observes. "As the head of counterterrorism and special operations under Petraeus, Westhusing oversaw the single most important task facing the U.S. military in Iraq then and now: training the Iraqi security forces."

Bryce refers to a "two-inch stack of documents, obtained over the past 15 months under the Freedom of Information Act, that provides many details of Westhusing’s suicide. The pile includes interviews with Westhusing’s co-workers, diagrams of his sleeping quarters, interviews with his family members, and partially redacted reports from the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command and Inspector General.

"The documents echo the story told by Westhusing’s friends. 'Something he saw [in Iraq] drove him to this,' one Army officer who was close to Westhusing said in an interview. 'The sum of what he saw going on drove him' to take his own life. 'It’s because he believed in duty, honor, country that he’s dead.'"

In Iraq, Westhusing worked under two generals: Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, and Petraeus, then a lieutenant general. In a March 2005 e-mail, Petraeus told Westhusing that he had “already exceeded the very lofty expectations that all had for you.”

But Bryce continues: "By late May, Westhusing was becoming despondent over what he was seeing. Steeped in—and totally believing in—the West Point credo that a cadet will 'not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do,' Westhusing found himself surrounded by contractors who had no interest in his ideals. He asked family members to pray for him. In a phone call with his wife, Michelle, who was back at West Point, Westhusing told her he planned to tell Petraeus that he was going to quit. She pleaded with him to just finish his tour and return home."

When his body was found on June, a note was found nearby addressed to Petraeus and Fil. According to Bryce it read:

"Thanks for telling me it was a good day until I briefed you. [Redacted name]—You are only interested in your career and provide no support to your staff—no msn [mission] support and you don’t care. I cannot support a msn that leads to corruption, human right abuses and liars. I am sullied—no more. I didn’t volunteer to support corrupt, money grubbing contractors, nor work for commanders only interested in themselves. I came to serve honorably and feel dishonored. I trust no Iraqi. I cannot live this way. All my love to my family, my wife and my precious children. I love you and trust you only. Death before being dishonored any more.

"Trust is essential—I don’t know who trust anymore. Why serve when you cannot accomplish the mission, when you no longer believe in the cause, when your every effort and breath to succeed meets with lies, lack of support, and selfishness? No more. Reevaluate yourselves, cdrs [commanders]. You are not what you think you are and I know it."

Twelve days after Westhusing’s body was found, Army investigators talked with his widow, Michelle, who told them: "The one thing I really wish is you guys to go to everyone listed in that letter and speak with them. I think Ted gave his life to let everyone know what was going on. They need to get to the bottom of it, and hope all these bad things get cleaned up.”

Bryce concludes:

"In September 2005, the Army’s inspector general concluded an investigation into allegations raised in the anonymous letter to Westhusing shortly before his death. It found no basis for any of the issues raised. Although the report is redacted in places, it is clear that the investigation was aimed at determining whether Fil or Petraeus had ignored the corruption and human rights abuses allegedly occurring within the training program for Iraqi security personnel. The report, approved by the Army’s vice chief of staff, four-star Gen. Richard Cody, concluded that 'commands and commanders operated in an Iraqi cultural and ethical environment often at odds with Western practices.' It said none of the unit members 'accepted institutional corruption or human rights abuses. Unit members, and specifically [redacted name] and [redacted name] took appropriate action where corruption or abuse was reported.'

"The context, placement and relative size of the redacted names strongly suggest that they refer to Petraeus and Fil.

"Last November, Fil returned to Iraq. He is now the commanding general of the Multinational Division in Baghdad and of the 1st Cavalry Division. On February 12, Petraeus took command of all U.S. forces in Iraq. He now wears four stars."

[Naturist Mark]

I'm speechless. Sometimes I can't believe this is the United States of American anymore. People need to be punished, we should bring back stocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks) in the town square for the people doing these things.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>The Army is ordering injured troops to go to Iraq (http://www.salon.com/news/2007/03/11/fort_benning/?source=whitelist)

March 11, 2007 | COLUMBUS, Ga. -- "This is not right," said Master Sgt. Ronald Jenkins, who has been ordered to Iraq even though he has a spine problem that doctors say would be damaged further by heavy Army protective gear. "This whole thing is about taking care of soldiers," he said angrily. "If you are fit to fight you are fit to fight. If you are not fit to fight, then you are not fit to fight."

As the military scrambles to pour more soldiers into Iraq, a unit of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division at Fort Benning, Ga., is deploying troops with serious injuries and other medical problems, including GIs who doctors have said are medically unfit for battle. Some are too injured to wear their body armor, according to medical records. more (http://www.salon.com/news/2007/03/11/fort_benning/?source=whitelist) [/list]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/ndmark/Hardball.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeDlsf5SQ6s)
click the pic - YouTube Video

-Mark

[hm0504]

FYI, usmc1 posted the article here:
http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6500016...410058974#6410058974 (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6500016152/m/5850070974?r=6410058974#6410058974)

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3210</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cry.gif

Mar 16, 2007 9:03 am US/Pacific

Pentagon To Deploy Iraq Support Troops Early
CBS News Interactive: Bush's Plan For Iraq

(AP) WASHINGTON Some 2,600 soldiers from a combat aviation unit will go to Iraq ahead of schedule, part of the support troops the Pentagon has said are needed to back the extra combat units President Bush is sending there.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates approved the deployment of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division combat aviation brigade 45 days earlier than planned, meaning they will go around May, a Defense Department official said Friday.

The approval will mean roughly 30,000 troops eventually will go to Baghdad and Anbar Province in the Bush administration's buildup to crack down on rising sectarian violence and insurgents, said the official, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the information.

The new aviation unit will provide transport helicopters and gunships to assist ground brigades already flowing in for the buildup. Officials said that Gen. David Petraeus, the new U.S. commander in Iraq, wanted the buildup to move as quickly as possible.

"This was requested over a month ago as part of the surge," said Col. Steven Boylan, public affairs officer for Petraeus. "These are what we call the enablers."

Two months ago, Bush ordered 21,500 additional American troops to Iraq to help calm the violence. He did not initially mention that support units would also be needed.

Officials later said that the number of support troops needed for the influx could be around 7,000. So far, these have included 2,400 combat support troops and 2,200 military police to help with an anticipated increase in detainees picked up during the crackdown.

Asked what he would say to critics of the steady additions to the original number, the Defense Department official said some of the requests came after Petraeus arrived in Iraq and assessed what he needed. He said Gates wants to give commanders what they believe they need to do the job as long as the requests are justified.

In an AP Radio interview, Canadian Army Major General Peter Devlin, deputy commanding general of coalition forces in Iraq, said of the extra troops, "What was always asked for was, beyond the combat formation, were the typical enablers that go along with combat formations."

Asked whether there are likely to be more such requests, he said, "Yes. It is exactly something that you would expect, is that there is a need for support troops to do what they do."

There are now roughly 142,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. About 60,000 are combat forces, the rest are support troops.

The Boston Globe reported on its Web site Thursday night that Petraeus had asked for an Army combat aviation unit with 2,500 to 3,000 troops, which were likely to come from the Army's 3rd Infantry, citing unidentified senior Pentagon officials.

[hm0504]

Originally posted by usmc1:
<span class="ev_code_Red">3210</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cry.gif

Mar 16, 2007 9:03 am US/Pacific

Pentagon To Deploy Iraq Support Troops Early
CBS News Interactive: Bush's Plan For Iraq

(AP) WASHINGTON Some 2,600 soldiers from a combat aviation unit will go to Iraq ahead of schedule, part of the support troops the Pentagon has said are needed to back the extra combat units President Bush is sending there.

...
In an AP Radio interview, Canadian Army Major General Peter Devlin, deputy commanding general of coalition forces in Iraq, said of the extra troops, "What was always asked for was, beyond the combat formation, were the typical enablers that go along with combat formations."
....

Interesting (at least for Canadians) that while Canada is not officially involved in the Iraq war (though it has been leading the Afghanistan and has taken the highest per capita NATO casualty rate there), it is interesting that a Canadian Army is deputy commander of the coalition troops in Iraq. FYI, I double-checked this (e.g.
http://www.mnci.centcom.mil/leaders/Biography-Devlin.pdf
).

[hm0504]

Great interview with Donald Trump on CNN's The Situation Room (unless you are a Bush supporter).

Do try and watch it!

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Well, I won't be part of the anti-war demonstration this year because--well,the real world catches up to all of us( and it just might be catching up to George Bush)--I owe too much money in dental bills so I have to work through the weekend.
I' ve never been much of a fan of Donald Trump --and he's basically saying the same thing so many other people with far less money (and therefore less attention) have been saying for a long time about George Bush. But if you've spent some time in many parts of this country you know that Bush's defenders are out there, they are legion, and they are as zombified as the people taken over by the pods from outer space in the various remakes of the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" movies. So Trump deserves credit for some degree of courage. So, we might as well all be using Mr. Trump's catch phrase on Bush: "You're fired!"

Impeach,
Kevin

[Naturist Mark]

if you've spent some time in many parts of this country you know that Bush's defenders are out there, they are legion, and they are as zombified as the people taken over by the pods from outer space in the various remakes of the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"

LOL

I don't think it is quite that bad. There are the 'true believers' who will follow the leader right off a cliff. Most others are just happily ignorant of what it going on with America. That isn't surprising, our mass media is so sycophantic and superficial that the public is left ignorant even about the stories they DO cover - I just listened to NPR (which is usually among the best of American media) do a story on Valerie Plame Wilson's (http://bluehorde.blogspot.com/2007/03/laffair-plame-it-doesnt-end-with-libby.html) congressional testimony (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/16/plame-covert-testimony/) , which was little more than a fashion report - it reported none of the devastating testimony that directly contradicted and proved false many of the Administration's official statements.

Media reports on the Gonzalez/US Attorney scandal lead viewers to believe it is about the President's right to dismiss the US Attorneys he appoints - it isn't, it is about the suborning of justice for political purposes (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030907D.shtml) - US Attorneys have been under pressure to investigate and indict political opponents of the Administration and to leave supporters alone. Over the last 6 years there have been nearly 400 investigations of elected officials for public corruption, less than 70 have been of Republicans (study) (http://www.epluribusmedia.org/columns/2007/20070212_political_profiling.html) , many if not most of investigations of Democrats are announced before an election and discretely dropped afterwards, the majority of the investigations that progess to prosecution have been of Republicans - and it is mainly the US Attorneys who prosecuted those cases who were fired.

It isn't that the public are zombies, it is that they are woefully - and willfully - misinformed. But that can only last for so long, it is no longer possible to hide the truth that the Iraq war was a fiasco from day one, and it will soon be obvious to to everyone except the delusional that the current administration is corrupt to the core.

-Mark

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:


LOL

I don't think it is quite that bad.

-Mark[/QUOTE]

Well, he got elected in '04 --he's got the veto power, he's got control of our nuclear arsenal--and he seems to be no more intelligent than Gomer Pyle. If it were to get too much worse I think I'd prefer to be living on the planet the body snatchers came from!

Impeach,
Kevin

[NudeAl]

All of this comes as no real surprise.

The additional troops, the less that honorable methods of " contractors," we used to call them mercs. Add to that the truly shoddy treatment of some of our returning wounded and follow up with the proposed privatizing and downsizing of the existing VA medical programs degrading the disability rating of returning wounded, just at the time when they are going to be needed more than at any time since the end of the Vietnam war.

It just makes you wonder if it is worth it anymore.

Here is another one to add to the list. There is a new protective body armor out on the market, TM Dragon skin. It is awesome! It is able to take repeated hits from high velocity rounds such as the AK 7.62 X 39 mm. Will the troops get it? Nope too expensive, plus the company doesn't have the inside track in the defense contractor business, mafia is more like it.

There is also an anti RPG defense system developed by the Israelis which shoots down around 70-80% of incoming RPG's, think mini patriot missile system for a vehicle. Will it be purchased by our government? Nope. Why, well there is a system being developed by one of our favorite defense contractors, Raytheon, that is only 5 or 6 years from having a working proto-type.

Another one, the current M-4 (think carbine M-16 variant) is highly susceptible to jamming due to a design flaw that is common to all M-16's some special op's guys thinking outside the box took the problem a German gun manufacturer and they re-worked the weapon so it functions sans-jams, always embarrassing in the middle of a shoot out. The spec op's guys will get the new weapon after all they thought of it but the rest will make due with the ol' M-4. I'll be zip tying a section of cleaning rods to the fore stock of mine to ram out the jammed rounds.

Nothing but the best for America's finest, that is the finest provided he's the lowest bidder and a defense contractor.

[hm0504]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:

LOL

I don't think it is quite that bad...

-Mark

Well, he got elected in '04 --he's got the veto power, he's got control of our nuclear arsenal--and he seems to be no more intelligent than Gomer Pyle. If it were to get too much worse I think I'd prefer to be living on the planet the body snatchers came from!

Impeach,
Kevin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got to agree with Kevin here. Sure the media are doing a disgustingly poor job but those legions of Americans (and legions of Canadians on my side of the border) need to be not taking this nonsense any more from either their neocon politicians or the margarine media. I agree with Donald Trump that under Bush Junior the U.S. is heading to catastrophe.

[Naturist Mark]

I've got to agree with Kevin here.
I agree with Kevin about the administration too. But what I was responding to with my "I don't think it is quite that bad..." was the comment I quoted about Bush supporters being "legion" and "zombified". I was in no way saying Bush and the Administration are anything other than unmitigated disasters.

-Mark

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've got to agree with Kevin here.
I agree with Kevin about the administration too. But what I was responding to with my "I don't think it is quite that bad..." was the comment I quoted about Bush supporters being "legion" and "zombified". I was in no way saying Bush and the Administration are anything other than unmitigated disasters.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm referring to all the people driving our highways with "W" stickers (Or others like "God Bless our Pres.) and the people who write letters to the editor on the premise that the existence of WMDs and Hussein's involvement with Al-Qaeda are still as irrefutable as the biblical account of the creation and the syndicated columnists who continue to call the current situation simply a battle of the forces of good against evil satanic terrorists--instead of something that just as closely resembles the conflict in the former Yugoslavia or the Thirty Years War that ended with the Treaty of Westphalia.

You still sound like the same old Naturist Mark!!--but watch out for the "pod people", Bush couldn't have gotten where he is without them!

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

I guess I got on the subject of Hollywood movies beacuse I'm fed up with the stuff you hear emanating from all the Neo-con think tanks.

So here's another concept from another movie "The Maltese Falcon."--the fall-guy concept.
We have many more things to worry about here in America in addition to the war in Iraq. But Bush has disgraced us in the eyes of the world and he should be the main "Fall Guy" (We can use Donald Trump's phrase "You're Fired." but the zombies are still out there and they still think Bush is just one fine "good 'ol boy" like any of their friends. So I think we need to be like the fictional Sam Spade who finally stood up to the lovely Brigid O'Shaughnessy (who murdered his partner Miles Archer) and say to the president "You're taking the Fall!"

Another concept is the "Pottery Barn concept" which Bob Woodward attributed to Colin Powell:
"You break it it's yours."

To me that means it's time for America to start paying for the restoration of the everyday necessities of life for the Iraqis not with a surge in dead American soldiers but with a surge in American tax payer funded reparations.

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

[hm0504]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've got to agree with Kevin here.
I agree with Kevin about the administration too. But what I was responding to with my "I don't think it is quite that bad..." was the comment I quoted about Bush supporters being "legion" and "zombified". I was in no way saying Bush and the Administration are anything other than unmitigated disasters.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm referring to all the people driving our highways with "W" stickers (Or others like "God Bless our Pres.) and the people who write letters to the editor on the premise that the existence of WMDs and Hussein's involvement with Al-Qaeda are still as irrefutable as the biblical account of the creation and the syndicated columnists who continue to call the current situation simply a battle of the forces of good against evil satanic terrorists--instead of something that just as closely resembles the conflict in the former Yugoslavia or the Thirty Years War that ended with the Treaty of Westphalia.

You still sound like the same old Naturist Mark!!--but watch out for the "pod people", Bush couldn't have gotten where he is without them!

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was exactly these points of Kevin's that I was agreeing with. Tragically, the neocons have their batallions of robots ready to rise on demand. I'm not saying a lot of those who supported Bush are now having serious second thoughts, there are many. But we know how few people actually vote and diehard neocons still have the numbers and ability to mobilize those numbers on election day. Let's rejoice in that the neocon numbers have dwindled but let's not think they are by any means unable to mount a rebound.

[NudeAl]

To me that means it's time for America to start paying for the restoration of the everyday necessities of life for the Iraqis not with a surge in dead American soldiers but with a surge in American tax payer funded reparations.

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

Trouble is that none of that money would ever make it to any average Iraqi.

Nor would any improvement in any social service or infrastructure last long enough to be productive. They are one of the highest priority targets of the insurgents. We have built or repaired many parts of the Iraqi infrastructure only to see them blown up the moment we move out of the area. To be effective we would need somewhere between 250,000 and 500,000 troops on the ground to occupy enough area to deny it's use to the enemy. In other words around the number quoted by the former chairman of the joint chief's of staff before he was asked to retire. See nothing can even start to be built until there is stability, such is life in a war zone. You need to stop killing and blowing things up before you rebuild stuff.

Nope no good way out of this one. The place is now a breeding ground for terrorists of just about any stripe or color. It is also a major piece on the chess board that is middle-east politics. Every neighboring nation state has an interest in how this thing plays out. But they are not going to come out in the open and admit it openly not the Arab way. Nope look to Lebanon that's the way I see it lasting decades and just more blood being spilt with no end in sight. Only question is how much more of that blood is going to be American? That's the only thing we can control even that is debatable.

[nacktman]

While I agree with the thrust of the last few posts I would caution that refering to neocons as zombies, while accurate, is frought with danger, they may begain to infest what is otherwise a good discussion.

Another point I would like to make is that the veto virtually abandoned by the current cabal is being threatened to be used on each and every piece of legislation Congress is working on now that such legislation is not rubber stamping what the cabal says they should rubber stamp.

As for the "Pod People" reference I don't think any outworlders would be as dimwitted as to inhabit such as the neocon with them being the lowest denominator and all. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[nacktman]

Trouble is that none of the money would ever make it to any average Iraqi.

True, nudeM, so true. It would be just another instance of where'd the 12Billion go to anyway?!

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

But the troops are as much a part of the problem as they might be a solution--they are the main rallying point for the insurgents who aren't all terrorists (they are mostly Iraqi patriots who don't want Americans in there country who don't really belong there because they entered illegally and brought much more bloodshed than the average illegal in America because like so many Americans they were duped by George Bush.)
If they really want to bring peace to that country while being paid by the American tax payers they better start concentrating really hard on learning Iraqi Arabic and assimilating into their culture--like maybe consider converting to a form of Islam. Ordinary immigrants in America don't necessarily have to do all this but this is what we expect of the professional peace keepers that watch our own neighborhoods in America. If the troops can't do this my only recommendation to them is the same one I made to my childhood friend David stationed in Balad: you say you don't understand the place then put in the request you said you wanted to make and get transferred to "a better place" (Colorado).


The Pottery Barn concept still applies it was an illegal invasion Americans just have to pay the Iraqis the reparations and it's the Iraqis business what they do with the money.

More and more Americans just don't believe in the troops "mission" any more.

Bring them home.

"The paths of glory lead but to the grave."
(Thomas Gray--Elegy written in a Country Churchyard)

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

[hm0504]

Originally posted by NudeAl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To me that means it's time for America to start paying for the restoration of the everyday necessities of life for the Iraqis not with a surge in dead American soldiers but with a surge in American tax payer funded reparations.

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

Trouble is that none of that money would ever make it to any average Iraqi.

Nor would any improvement in any social service or infrastructure last long enough to be productive. They are one of the highest priority targets of the insurgents. We have built or repaired many parts of the Iraqi infrastructure only to see them blown up the moment we move out of the area. To be effective we would need somewhere between 250,000 and 500,000 troops on the ground to occupy enough area to deny it's use to the enemy. In other words around the number quoted by the former chairman of the joint chief's of staff before he was asked to retire. See nothing can even start to be built until there is stability, such is life in a war zone. You need to stop killing and blowing things up before you rebuild stuff.

Nope no good way out of this one. The place is now a breeding ground for terrorists of just about any stripe or color. It is also a major piece on the chess board that is middle-east politics. Every neighboring nation state has an interest in how this thing plays out. But they are not going to come out in the open and admit it openly not the Arab way. Nope look to Lebanon that's the way I see it lasting decades and just more blood being spilt with no end in sight. Only question is how much more of that blood is going to be American? That's the only thing we can control even that is debatable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I generally share NudeAl's opinion. BTW, NudeAl, thanks for that other post you did on troop armour and protective gear. Very interesting. I hear our Army is looking at artillery ammo that is $150,000 per shot!

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by nacktman:
While I agree with the thrust of the last few posts I would caution that refering to neocons as zombies, while accurate, is frought with danger, they may begain to infest what is otherwise a good discussion.

Another point I would like to make is that the veto virtually abandoned by the current cabal is being threatened to be used on each and every piece of legislation Congress is working on now that such legislation is not rubber stamping what the cabal says they should rubber stamp.

As for the "Pod People" reference I don't think any outworlders would be as dimwitted as to inhabit such as the neocon with them being the lowest denominator and all. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

The zombie reference wasn't necessarily to the Neo-cons who are a very complicated form of creature: ex-socialists, former Scoop Jackson democrats, or people who have found a niche making a living in Rupert Murdoch's media creations--the Weekly Standard or Fox News.

The zombie reference might apply more accurately to the Paleo cons--or those that don't bother with much of a label other than the ribbon sticker they slapped on their bumper sticker.

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

[NudeAl]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
But the troops are as much a part of the problem as they might be a solution--they are the main rallying point for the insurgents who aren't all terrorists (they are mostly Iraqi patriots who don't want Americans in there country who don't really belong there because they entered illegally and brought much more bloodshed than the average illegal in America because like so many Americans they were duped by George Bush.)
If they really want to bring peace to that country while being paid by the American tax payers they better start concentrating really hard on learning Iraqi Arabic and assimilating into their culture--like maybe consider converitng to a form of Islam. Ordinary immigrants in America don't necessarily have to do all this but this is what we expect of the professional peace keepers that watch our own neighborhoods in America. If the troops can't do this my only recommendation to them is the same one I made to my childhood friend David stationed in Balad: you say you don't understand the place then put in the request you said you wanted to make and get transferred to "a better place" (Colorado).


The Pottery Barn concept still applies it was an illegal invasion Americans just have to pay the Iraqis the reparations and it's the Iraqis business what they do with the money.

More and more Americans just don't believe in the troops "mission" any more.

Bring them home.

"The paths of glory lead but to the grave."
(Thomas Gray--Elegy written in a Country Churchyard)

Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

In a society that respects law or at least fears the consequences of breaking the law that might work. However all the money we pour into the bottomless pit that is Iraq simply ends in someone's greedy pocket. They are not going to even bother trying to hide it, well just enough to make sure it is untraceable back to them.

We have nothing on the amount of corruption in government compared to Iraq. They are blatant about it our politicians at least try to pretend not to be corrupt.

Our military was never designed to be a peace keeping force. Most of our military receive little or no training in this. As to learning Arabic good idea however in actual implementation not practical. It would take years to become proficient enough to speak well enough to use. We do actually try to teach some words and phrases to our troops and we employ interpreters. We might start teaching it in public schools though, especially in those districts with middle or low income families. Because those kids are likely to join the military and that means they will be going to Iraq at some time in the future.

If all the neighboring states with a stake in the new Iraq would put up forces to act as peace keepers in Iraq it might work. There are so many with ulterior motives though I bet it would still end up like Lebanon, a civil war that has turned into a place for others to blast each other.

But if pouring money down the hole that is Iraq will pull our troops back out then do it. It's cheaper in the long run and who knows something good might come of it like forcing us to develop alternative energy since the middle east is going to get really hot in the near future.

Oh and the idea of transfering to a better place well good luck on that one buddy. No one gets a transfer out until they do their tour in Iraq. In the Marine Corps there are only three kinds of Marines, those that are in Iraq now, those that just got back from Iraq and those that are going to Iraq. I don't care what the recruiters have promised you that's the way it is. Oh and I agree with whoever said that this is going to be a generational thing our kids and grand kids will be fighting this war or the larger war it creates.

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Well I've heard some of your opinions on the subject and you still seem to be to some degree committed to being dragged along through George Bush's mess.
So this supports my thinking that even some of the most open-minded Americans don't want to acknowledge America's respnsibility for the illegal invasion.
Reparations are part of the deal--that's elementary justice and, once again, it's the Iraqis business what they do with the huge amount of money they are owed by America for the illegal invasion.
They are getting some of the the necessities they used to have back in the rotten old days of Hussein before George Bush came along and really fouled things up. They are getting these things (Like electricity and air conditoning mostly from Iran--a member of the so-called "axis of evil" they just need more money to pay less for it.)
But if Americans can't accept the basic premise that they have to pay for the current mess their president started-- then I guess not just George Bush but all of us may be setting ourselves up for a fall.
Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

[hm0504]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
Well I've heard some of your opinions on the subject and you still seem to be to some degree committed to being dragged along through George Bush's mess.
So this supports my thinking that even some of the most open-minded Americans don't want to acknowledge America's respnsibility for the illegal invasion.
Reparations are part of the deal--that's elementary justice and, once again, it's the Iraqis business what they do with the huge amount of money they are owed by America for the illegal invasion.
They are getting some of the the necessities they used to have back in the rotten old days of Hussein before George Bush came along and really fouled things up. They are getting these things (Like electricity and air conditoning mostly from Iran--a member of the so-called "axis of evil" they just need more money to pay less for it.)
But if Americans can't accept the basic premise that they have to pay for the current mess their president started-- then I guess not just George Bush but all of us may be setting ourselves up for a fall.
Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

In the moral sense you describe you are absolutely right; America must repair Iraq. It would also seem likely that reparation money won't go to reparations but to insurgents and Islamists. Bush has created a hellish impossible situation where all paths seem to lead to nightmares.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by hm0504:
In the moral sense you describe you are absolutely right; America must repair Iraq. It would also seem likely that reparation money won't go to reparations but to insurgents and Islamists. Bush has created a hellish impossible situation where all paths seem to lead to nightmares.
I do not see any good way to get out of the mess that Iraq has become. No matter what course of action we take, there will be major problems.

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

The problem with refering to "that hole in IraQ" is the hole situation is as much a creation of American foreign policy as the creation of the late Saddam (and our entanglement with the old dictator went back as far as the Reagan administration when they thought it would be to our advantage to take his side in the Iran/Iraq War).
Islamic societies can be suffocating and harsh for many people who prefer much greater openness and freedom than we have in countries dedicated to individual freedom above everything else.
But part of the solution is understanding that there is more to the differences than Islam and tribalism. As someone who has spent some time in the households of people who emigrated form middle-eastern countries I think there's more to it than a clash between an old civilization and a modern one.
Most Free market free countries have the individual and the nuclear family at the heart of their expectations about how the individual is expected to thrive in society.
In the more traditional civilizations the reliance on the extended family is still much stronger.
But in the free market societies the declining influence of the extended family (or the tribe) means outside of the nuclear family the individual is reliant on the government --and economic growth to support large gov't social insurance programs.
So this is, in my opinion, why understanding and monetary assistance to iraq will have to assume a larger role over foreign imposed martial law.
Iraq's neighbors have become involved in talks over Iraq's future but for most of his presidency Bush has just had the arrogant "Frank Sinatra" policy: I'm gonna do it "my way."

Peace,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

The shadow of 9-11 still looms over all of us--even if Saddam really had essentially nothing to do with that.
I was working in a liquor store in San Francisco when it happened and one instance of the personal change that 9-11 caused to so many of us was my co-worker Tom.
The biggest peace freak I ever met: long-blonde haired, vegetarian with three loves in his life at that time: his inter-racial relationship with his girlfriend, Radiohead and marijuana.
After the terrorist attack Tom was about to become a different person within a day or two:
Shave all that long blonde hair off and go to Afghanistan to kick some butt!

But before there was 9-11 the biggest terrorist attack on American soil was that bombing in Oklahoma by people with old fashioned American names like McVeigh and Nichols instead of Bin Laden.
So the emotions that motivate terrorists are simply human emotions not simply and exclusively middle-eastern emotions.

Peace,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
Well, folks we've had a lively discussion this morning but i've got to head off to work this morning.
I write some hot-headed stuff some times!!--this might simply because I refuse to take the crap my psychologist and psychiatrist wanted to prescribe for my bi-polar disorder. (I did some reading on my own and another authority described this medication as akin to giving myself a chemical lobotomy--so I hope I chose the lesser of two evils.)
Peace,
Kevin[/QUOTE]

[hm0504]

According to this new poll:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/18/poll.wars/index.html

...
The CNN poll of 1,027 adults was conducted March 9-11 by Opinion Research Corp. The sampling error for the poll is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

According to the results, 35 percent of Americans are confident about the war, the poll said. When the war began, 83 percent of Americans expressed confidence in the campaign.
...

Not that all Bush/Iraq war supporters are zombies, but I'd say a 35% level of zombies in the population sounds about right. If an election were held today and 70% of the zombies voted, Bush could win again.

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3218</span>
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif


My perspective is a bit different.

First, I think we err when we allow the administration, politicians and media to frame the debate in terms of their choice. As long as we talk about the "war" a significant group of decent Americans are going to, out of misguided patriotism, stand steady in support of the "war effort". It would be unthinkable for them to do otherwise. They are literal, balck or white, right or wrong, no gray areas and no nuances people. They just can't believe that a President would lie us into war, especially one that appears to share their political values, morals and world view.

So, for me, the challenge seems to be in helping them and others to understand that rightfully or wrongfully (and that accountability is coming) the war is over. We won, hands down. Mission accomplished! What we are now engaged in is an occupation and feeble attempt at nation building in a country at war with its self.

Once the debate becomes about that, occupation and nation-building, and the reality of the situation fully sinks in, that 30 to 40 percent of support will diminish. Then the question becomes not "do you support the war", but what it should be, "should we continue to deplete our armed forces, divide our nation, and squander our treasury on the indefinite, unqualified, and unlimited occupation of a country that dearly would dearly love to to see us to hell and gone, despite what might ensue at our departure.

[NudeAl]

Originally posted by earthpassenger(Kevin):
Well I've heard some of your opinions on the subject and you still seem to be to some degree committed to being dragged along through George Bush's mess.
So this supports my thinking that even some of the most open-minded Americans don't want to acknowledge America's respnsibility for the illegal invasion.
Reparations are part of the deal--that's elementary justice and, once again, it's the Iraqis business what they do with the huge amount of money they are owed by America for the illegal invasion.
They are getting some of the the necessities they used to have back in the rotten old days of Hussein before George Bush came along and really fouled things up. They are getting these things (Like electricity and air conditoning mostly from Iran--a member of the so-called "axis of evil" they just need more money to pay less for it.)
But if Americans can't accept the basic premise that they have to pay for the current mess their president started-- then I guess not just George Bush but all of us may be setting ourselves up for a fall.
Peace and Impeachment,
Kevin

Kevin I think you might be reading me wrong.

I do think we have to take responsibility for our actions we did invade their country. I was there and I was praying we wouldn't but when you're paid to fight you do what they pay you for.

About the money thing sure we should make some sort of gesture, rebuild some more stuff, line the pockets of a few more corrupt pseudo Iraqi government officials. Whatever it takes to get the hell out of that place as expeditiously as good form will allow. I think if we do so there will be a mess but hey there's a huge mess there now so at least then it's their mess. If Iraq is really lucky maybe someone in the vicinity, somewhere with similar cultural norms will make an effort to get things in order.

I've been there once and it looks like I'll be going there again. I really don't want to but hey again when you wear the uniform it goes with the job. I just hope my son who is 15 won't have to go. If I get blown up I know I'll get the very best medical care the VA or by then the privatized government contractor handling things can provide. Provided it doesn't cost too much and I am willing to wait my turn behind the others still waiting to be seen. Most of us can see how this is going but getting it to change is not going to be easy. GW will not admit failure he won't pull the plug so it is going to be up to the next president and congress. Who we put in the drivers seat next election is how we get out of there, to me nothing else matters.

[Sanslines]

As I have mentioned in the Bush Biggest Screw Up thread, it is going to take a Gerald Ford type of president to bring closure to this mess called Iraq. Just as Gerald Ford made many very difficult and unpopular decisions at the time to finally put Vietnam behind us, so will the new president (whoever he or she is) have to do for Iraq. Good luck to whoever that person is for he or she will need it.

[usmc1]

Our role in the occupation of Iraq can be ratcheted down very quickly without any doomsday scenarios or regional conflagrations.

Yesterday's NYT carried a story about Russia's dope-slap of Iran over nuclear fuel. Russia exerts a lot of influence in the region, as also do the Sauds, Persians, Jordanians, Syria and other Arab states. Each has a very strong interest in maintaining balance in the region and will do what they need to do to preserve it.

What we need to asking ourselves is why does this administration continue to call the our occupation a war, why does it not pursue a multi-national solution to the civil war and sectarian violence within Iraq, and why (with all the evidence to the contrary) do we continue to accept this administration's words at face value.

After thinking one's way through those questions, one invariably comes to the conclusion that we are still being gamed.

The majority of Americans want us out, most Iraqis want us way, way out--in fact a recent survey of Iraqis, as reported by ABC yesterday, tells us that 51% of Iraqis condone the killing of Americans in their country--we won the war and are losing the occupation--there is no honor in that. But, this administration asks for patience.

It's like we're Charley Brown and the administration is Lucy and the Iraq occupation is the football---guess what? Unless we change things, we ain't gonna be kicking that football.

There are several scenarios available to us, all honorable, in which we can extract ourselves from this occupation of Iraq. We should demand that this administration do so, post haste!

[nacktman]

Here's the "real" reason there is no exit strategy for Iraq!

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3223</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sick.gif

1,462 Days. End the Occupation!

[Tampanude]

The majority of Americans want us out, most Iraqis want us way, way out--in fact a recent survey of Iraqis, as reported by ABC yesterday, tells us that 51% of Iraqis condone the killing of Americans in their country--we won the war and are losing the occupation--there is no honor in that. But, this administration asks for patience.

It's like we're Charley Brown and the administration is Lucy and the Iraq occupation is the football---guess what? Unless we change things, we ain't gonna be kicking that football.

I've never seen it put quite that way,usmc1

Dead on!


http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3233</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sick.gif

http://www.theonion.com/content/

The Four Years of Winning Issue

[nacktman]

Gad, and I had hoped these people had wised up.

Had Gore been allowed to serve as the elected president he was we would not be in this mess in the first place and Kerry would not have needed to run in and win the last election either.
If we would have gone into the current fiasco, which we wouldn't have as we'd have a brain that is functional in charge instead of the sot we have, we would have gone in done what we set out to do and got out without any of the chattel we have created in doing as we have done.

On the off topic notion that 10 or 100s of thousands would have died at the "hands of a 'safe but rare' abortionist or embryonic stem cell researcher", if any other than the shrub were president is asinine, just plain ignorant and outright stupid as those types of numbers don't occur over the entire world in a decade, let alone a year, much less in the USA alone. Someone has had smoke blown up their arse and they liked it to fall for that hogwash.
However it is a fact that over 70,000 have died as a direct result of the shrub being called president in Iraq alone, not counting in Afganistan, or New Orleans, and elsewhere.

There will be a clear exit strategy imposed on this sociopath and the clock is ticking and the most powerful person on this planet is setting the timetable ... and that is not the president -- it has never been, the most powerful person on this planet is, and has always been for the last 90 years, the chairman of the House Ways and Means committee -- they control the money and how it is spent and the chairman controls the committee.

We're better off with the shrub in charge all right: unprecedented levels of corruption, scandals upon and within scandals, total disregard for the law, profiteering - war and otherwise, more people on the brink of economic disaster than ever before, more people without healthcare than ever before, inordinate price gouging in industries across the board at record levels, our military streched way beyond reason, the total loss of respect and goodwill of the rest of the world, ah, the list goes on and on and on and on ... Yep, we sure are better off with the shrub "in charge"! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/bonk.gif

[hm0504]

Originally posted by HairForce:
...

I feel for the moms and dads who lost children unnecessarily. If it makes anyone feel better, America lost 1/60th of its population during the Civil War. We've not come anywhere near that with Iraq.

OK. So stem cells are humans but the tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of dead Iraqis are not. Got it! Thanks!

Now I am left with the question as to whether Iraqi stem cells are humans or not? Perhaps if American researchers could use only Iraqi stem cells for their research and then everyone would be happy.

[nacktman]

Now I am left with the question as to whether Iraqi stem cells are humans or not? Perhaps if American researchers could only use Iraqi stem cells for their research and then everyone would be happy.

Alibinus, what of the different types of Iraqis should one only use Kurdish stem cells, Sunni stem cells or Shia stem cells in their research?
And how do you choose which one to use?

[Baron Lake]

Maybe by which "types" have the least oil?
b.l.

[hm0504]

Originally posted by Baron Lake:
Maybe by which "types" have the least oil?
b.l.

LOL!

[Naturist Mark]

Hey, at least they are trying to keep the costs of the war down.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> How Specialist Town Lost His Benefits (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/kors)

Eventually the rocket shrapnel was removed from (Spc. Jon) Town's neck and his ears stopped leaking blood. But his hearing never really recovered, and in many ways, neither has his life. A soldier honored twelve times during his seven years in uniform, Town has spent the last three struggling with deafness, memory failure and depression. By September 2006 he and the Army agreed he was no longer combat-ready.

But instead of sending Town to a medical board and discharging him because of his injuries, doctors at Fort Carson, Colorado, did something strange: They claimed Town's wounds were actually caused by a "personality disorder." Town was then booted from the Army and told that under a personality disorder discharge, he would never receive disability or medical benefits.

Town is not alone. A six-month investigation has uncovered multiple cases in which soldiers wounded in Iraq are suspiciously diagnosed as having a personality disorder, then prevented from collecting benefits. The conditions of their discharge have infuriated many in the military community, including the injured soldiers and their families, veterans' rights groups, even military officials required to process these dismissals. [/list]

Yeah, deafness caused by a pre-existing personality disorder - the shrapnel was just a coincidence.

I've heard rumors that pre-existing personality disorders can also cause the loss of limbs, bleeding in the brain, organ failure and bad teeth.

-Mark

[nacktman]

'Infuriated' is a pretty mild term for what is the feeling(s) about this ongoing example of how this cabal "SUPPORTS' our troops, Mark, but as you know the forum's Nazi software would not permit the terminology one would use to more aptly describe those feelings.

BTW, those rumors about 'pre-existing personality disorders' are quite true -- about leading to bad teeth anyway. Oral hygenics are not very high on the list of things to do for most with 'personality disorders'
Speaking of teeth have you ever noticed that you don't see the shrub's teeth when his mouth is moving ... makes you wonder?!

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3241[</span>http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

Gorgeous weekend. Did my first mowing of the year. But, its not really spring yet. Not until my scissor-tailed flycatchers return to the meadow.

Hope everyone has a good week! At some point, would you please pause and think about what's being done in your name. Thank you.

[barenaked1]

Changes need to happen now. America faces issues with an administration that only caters to themselves. They no longer serve the 'People'. I am extremely saddened by this course of action and am doing what I can, by voting my piece of mind. If only that vote truly counted........


Originally posted by usmc1:
<span class="ev_code_Red">3241[</span>http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

Gorgeous weekend. Did my first mowing of the year. But, its not really spring yet. Not until my scissor-tailed flycatchers return to the meadow.

Hope everyone has a good week! At some point, would you please pause and think about what's being done in your name. Thank you.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by barenaked1:
Changes need to happen now. America faces issues with an administration that only caters to themselves. They no longer serve the 'People'. I am extremely saddened by this course of action and am doing what I can, by voting my piece of mind. If only that vote truly counted........
Your vote does count, along with everybody else's. The accumulated total is what matters, not what one individual would like to see happen. Just be sure to get out and vote and maybe you will get a result that you are in agreement with.

[nacktman]

As that famous or is that infamous paragon of political verisimilitude Josef Stalin once said ... "It's not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes.".
His ideological breathren have been doing the counting the past few years and you see the results ...

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_Red">3246 http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif</span>

Back in Texas today, and the fields are alive with Bluebonnets, Indian Paint Brush, Red Clover, Coreopsis and Pinks.

In D.C. the Cherry blossums, Dogwoods and Tulip Trees are in full beautiful bloom and daffodils, yellow and white are sporting their little trumpet faces.

For some, the hope of Spring is in the air. For 3246 there will be no more springs.

I was Wal