"Boat People"

[Pieguy]

Maybe the Aussie government should stop being so hard on "Vietnamese Boat People", as Anglo-Saxons are the original boat people...

200 years ago, the First Fleet came to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy, overcrowded boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from a country that did not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from locals who wanted them out

Today, refugees are coming to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy overcrowded fishing boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from countries that do not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from the Federal Government who wants them out

Sound familiar?

[Pieguy]

Maybe the Aussie government should stop being so hard on "Vietnamese Boat People", as Anglo-Saxons are the original boat people...

200 years ago, the First Fleet came to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy, overcrowded boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from a country that did not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from locals who wanted them out

Today, refugees are coming to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy overcrowded fishing boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from countries that do not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from the Federal Government who wants them out

Sound familiar?

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
Maybe the Aussie government should stop being so hard on "Vietnamese Boat People", as Anglo-Saxons are the original boat people...

200 years ago, the First Fleet came to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy, overcrowded boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from a country that did not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from locals who wanted them out

Today, refugees are coming to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy overcrowded fishing boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from countries that do not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from the Federal Government who wants them out

Sound familiar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pie,
The difference is that 200 years ago, there were actual opportunities for refugees to support themselves. Nowadays, they rely on government programs and cause additional burdons on public services without contributing to the tax base. Here in the U.S., we have millions of people living on government handouts. Add to that all of the refugees and illegal immigrants, and we end up supporting quite a few people with our tax money. Add to that the fact that our government "loans" money to the Italian government to pay for their universal health care program, among other things, and you cna see that we pay quite a bit for taxes. Therefore, we don't need to be spending any more.

[SunGod]

If these people spent half the effort on improving their own countries as in getting out of them and into ours they wouldnt need to come at all. Call me an a-hole, but I live in S. Florida and we are being over run by every S. American/carribean dialect in existence. Question: Where do the American/Austrailian/W. European people go when enough immigrants come and eventually ruin the land, economy, culture, & government like they did their own? I say, send the boats back. All of them.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunGod:
If these people spent half the effort on improving their own countries as in getting out of them and into ours they wouldnt need to come at all. Call me an a-hole, but I live in S. Florida and we are being over run by every S. American/carribean dialect in existence. Question: Where do the American/Austrailian/W. European people go when enough immigrants come and eventually ruin the land, economy, culture, & government like they did their own? I say, send the boats back. All of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not only what you named yourself, you're also a misinformed reactionary.

Unless you're one of a dozen or so Indian Tribes of Florida, from Acuera, to Yustaga, your recent ancestors came from somewhere else to America seeking opportunity, a better life, religious freedom or were transported for stealing the king's bee's wax.

That gives you no right to characterize other more recent arrivals in such a reprehensibly racist, demeaning and zenophobic way.

Those Caribs and South Americans you speak of so disparagingly along with Spaniards were inhabiting and visiting Florida a long before you and yours showed up on the scene.

The wisest thing you wrote was when you asked to be called taht which you so obviously are.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
Maybe the Aussie government should stop being so hard on "Vietnamese Boat People", as Anglo-Saxons are the original boat people...

200 years ago, the First Fleet came to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy, overcrowded boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from a country that did not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from locals who wanted them out

Today, refugees are coming to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy overcrowded fishing boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from countries that do not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from the Federal Government who wants them out

Sound familiar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pie,
The difference is that 200 years ago, there were actual opportunities for refugees to support themselves. Nowadays, they rely on government programs and cause additional burdons on public services without contributing to the tax base. Here in the U.S., we have millions of people living on government handouts. Add to that all of the refugees and illegal immigrants, and we end up supporting quite a few people with our tax money. Add to that the fact that our government "loans" money to the Italian government to pay for their universal health care program, among other things, and you cna see that we pay quite a bit for taxes. Therefore, we don't need to be spending any more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gag on gnats and swallow camels. $20,000 per American on Average spent on death and destruction in Iraq and nary a peep about wasted tax money.

A pittance on education and health care for migrant workers and people trying to secure the blessings of liberty and you're outraged.

I thought you were going to eschew controversy? Old habits are hard to break aren't they.

[SunGod]

I'm not misinformed, I live here in S. Florida and I see this disaster unfold everyday. I these arrogant immigrants come here and DEMAND school books in spanish, DEMAND public signs in spanish, DEMAND free healthcare, DEMAND housing, DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND. What do we as "native" Americans and actual "citizens" get from this? I say nothing but ghettos, crime (latino gangs popping up all over s. Florida), poverty, increase burden on tax payers, well fare, healthcare companies, and a dilution of OUR culture. White and black. Its not really a racial issue, its a cultural AMERICAN issue. You call me a racists, but where does it say that White and Black Americans have to roll over for the brown invasion and just take it?!? Its not racism to say this. I am not anti any race, I am as for any other culture as my own and they all have a place. I just do not accept that I as a white American must sit back and watch my culture/language be roled over by arrogant immigrants who think America owes them something. I would think that being in Texas, you of all people can see this!?!?

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You're not only what you named yourself, you're also a misinformed reactionary.

Unless you're one of a dozen or so Indian Tribes of Florida, from Acuera, to Yustaga, your recent ancestors came from somewhere else to America seeking opportunity, a better life, religious freedom or were transported for stealing the king's bee's wax.

That gives you no right to characterize other more recent arrivals in such a reprehensibly racist, demeaning and zenophobic way.

Those Caribs and South Americans you speak of so disparagingly along with Spaniards were inhabiting and visiting Florida a long before you and yours showed up on the scene.

The wisest thing you wrote was when you asked to be called taht which you so obviously are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to second what you have written usmc1. Articulate as always.

Of course there are SOME refugees who use the system.....just as there are SOME folks born in North America who do. Many or most are actually contributing well to their new country and want to live "the American Dream" (is that a real thing?) In my town, there are many new immigrants from Africa (Sudan mostly) and they are hardworking, productive citizens....a welcome addition. I used to live in Toronto and would say the same about people I met there who were new to Canada.

Perhaps the social problems you see SunGod are as a result of a government who would rather wage war than develop healthier countries and societies.....espcially its own.

We are all descendents of refugees unless we are full-blooded Cree, Iroquois or Mowhawk and their brothers/sisters.

[sw1sweendog]

try living on the southern boarder and see if you feel the same.gonna have to go with sun god on this one.i feel like a foreiner in my own country.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
Maybe the Aussie government should stop being so hard on "Vietnamese Boat People", as Anglo-Saxons are the original boat people...

200 years ago, the First Fleet came to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy, overcrowded boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from a country that did not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from locals who wanted them out

Today, refugees are coming to Australia:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>on leaky, crappy overcrowded fishing boats
<LI>without asking permission
<LI>from countries that do not want them
[/list]meeting with hostility from the Federal Government who wants them out

Sound familiar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pie,
The difference is that 200 years ago, there were actual opportunities for refugees to support themselves. Nowadays, they rely on government programs and cause additional burdons on public services without contributing to the tax base. Here in the U.S., we have millions of people living on government handouts. Add to that all of the refugees and illegal immigrants, and we end up supporting quite a few people with our tax money. Add to that the fact that our government "loans" money to the Italian government to pay for their universal health care program, among other things, and you cna see that we pay quite a bit for taxes. Therefore, we don't need to be spending any more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gag on gnats and swallow camels. $20,000 per American on Average spent on death and destruction in Iraq and nary a peep about wasted tax money.

A pittance on education and health care for migrant workers and people trying to secure the blessings of liberty and you're outraged.

I thought you were going to eschew controversy? Old habits are hard to break aren't they. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was expressing my opinion. I decided not to continue a previous argument with you. YOU decided to make a controversy of this topic.
Obviously, you are out looking for an argument. You also appear to be a person who refuses to accept when they are wrong. Because of that, I refuse to respond to any more of your postings on this topic.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunGod:
If these people spent half the effort on improving their own countries as in getting out of them and into ours they wouldnt need to come at all. Call me an a-hole, but I live in S. Florida and we are being over run by every S. American/carribean dialect in existence. Question: Where do the American/Austrailian/W. European people go when enough immigrants come and eventually ruin the land, economy, culture, & government like they did their own? I say, send the boats back. All of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sungod,
In many of the countries from which these people flee, there are political forces which prevent them from making a decent living. They are forced to live in sub-standard housing and eat sub-standard food. The children attend sub-standard schools and are looked down upon based upon social status.

For some strange reason, they think it is different here in America, but it isn't. The reason it isn't is because our government overspends and gives away too much money. The lower class remains poor while the politicians and other rich people get richer. The only difference between the other countries and ours is that our government has a better marketing strategy. They actually let us believe that we have a say in how our country works. But the politicians have it sewn up. That is why there are only two major political parties and we still operate gas powered automobiles. They control everything. We are just mice in a cage watched by the mad scientists (in Washington)for their amusement.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You're not only what you named yourself, you're also a misinformed reactionary.

Unless you're one of a dozen or so Indian Tribes of Florida, from Acuera, to Yustaga, your recent ancestors came from somewhere else to America seeking opportunity, a better life, religious freedom or were transported for stealing the king's bee's wax.

That gives you no right to characterize other more recent arrivals in such a reprehensibly racist, demeaning and zenophobic way.

Those Caribs and South Americans you speak of so disparagingly along with Spaniards were inhabiting and visiting Florida a long before you and yours showed up on the scene.

The wisest thing you wrote was when you asked to be called taht which you so obviously are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to second what you have written usmc1. Articulate as always.

Of course there are SOME refugees who use the system.....just as there are SOME folks born in North America who do. Many or most are actually contributing well to their new country and want to live "the American Dream" (is that a real thing?) In my town, there are many new immigrants from Africa (Sudan mostly) and they are hardworking, productive citizens....a welcome addition. I used to live in Toronto and would say the same about people I met there who were new to Canada.

Perhaps the social problems you see SunGod are as a result of a government who would rather wage war than develop healthier countries and societies.....espcially its own.

We are all descendents of refugees unless we are full-blooded Cree, Iroquois or Mowhawk and their brothers/sisters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my point, We need to stop spending money trying to make the world a democracy and start taking care of business at home. If we had full employment, a stable economy and reasonable taxes, I wouldn't care how many people crossed the border (legally) to become citizens.

[KetchumMaine]

Pieguy,
Is this what you expected when you started this thread?? Washington D.C. starts wars in a similar fashion. Don't feel bad, it was bound to happen anyway. Some people just tend to gravitate to certain subjects.

[Pieguy]

Not at all, I'm delighted to have started such a spirited political debate. By all means continue. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[alfredr]

I wish I had the time or could think and type fast enough to respond properly to this topic. I'll do what I can.
Most people come for the opportunity here or where ever. They don't come for the welfare system. They don't come to join gangs. They come to improve their life and the lives of their children even if they can't bring their children here because we make it so difficult to enter this country legally. Yes. they do want their children to be able to get an education if they are here.
And they are willing to work hard here to make their dreams come true. This country has always relied on immigrant (cheap) labor to build this economy. They do the dirty and the physically hard jobs that are so necessary but unglamorous and don't attract people who are already comfortable in their situation.
This is still a land of opportunity, even if the streets aren't paved with gold.
Our economy has always been built on the backs of immigrants, only now we aren't letting them come legally, so they come anyway.
And by the way, you ain't seen poor until you have seen a third world slum.

[usmc1]

Ketchum - Whatever. You're not going to respond to me anymore, taht's what you said the last time. But no loss, I don't find you very interesting.

You may, however, want to check out your propensity for making controversial or challenging comments and then fleeing when someone responds in disputation. Such behavior is dysfuntional and may be a signal that you have problems with interpersonal relationships in real time

SunGod - Racism is not merely a White/Black thing. Racism is precisely what you've engaged in here by condemning and assigning racial characteristics to a group of people. You're misinformed, because the majority of illegal immigrants in this country hunker down as low as they can get to avoid detection--they do not demand a thing.

But, so what what if they do?, it is about time people did make some demands for decent health care, education and quality of life. And what is wrong with accommodating people's language requirements. That is part of your zenophobia at work--and a way to keep people non-participative and marginalized.

SW1...I lived in San Antonio for a large number of years, right up there on Oakview in Alamo Heights, and I can tell you that at the time the Hispanic poplution was 67% so I have experienced the position of being the ethnic minority---I also have traveled and bummed around in Mexico quite a bit, so I know what it is to be alone in in another country trying to get by in barely passable Spanish and pidgin English.

The rest of it...alfredr, said it quite well. to which, I'd like to add, if those of you so upset by new arrivals would get up off the couch, and stop peeking through the blinds saying tsk, tsk, and get involved with church, charity and civic groups trying to help new arrivals with langauge and coping skills and otherwise getting a leg up you might learn your fears are based on misinformation, mistrust, lack of understanding and.. FEAR.

You'll also be too busy to idle your life away disparaging and distrusting others. You'll benefit greatly from learning to know people as individuals rather than groups.

I swear to the Goddess, ignorance (before the yammerers start to yammer, please take the time to look up the "absence of knowledge" definition for ignorance--thank you) has got to be one of the deadly sins!

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alfredr:
I wish I had the time or could think and type fast enough to respond properly to this topic. I'll do what I can.
Most people come for the opportunity here or where ever. They don't come for the welfare system. They don't come to join gangs. They come to improve their life and the lives of their children even if they can't bring their children here because we make it so difficult to enter this country legally. Yes. they do want their children to be able to get an education if they are here.
And they are willing to work hard here to make their dreams come true. This country has always relied on immigrant (cheap) labor to build this economy. They do the dirty and the physically hard jobs that are so necessary but unglamorous and don't attract people who are already comfortable in their situation.
This is still a land of opportunity, even if the streets aren't paved with gold.
Our economy has always been built on the backs of immigrants, only now we aren't letting them come legally, so they come anyway.
And by the way, you ain't seen poor until you have seen a third world slum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

alfredr,
My point is that we need to address the problems which affect our citizens before we can help others.

[naturalmanwa]

I don't think the US Gov't has shown a great interest in taking care of business at home in any large measure for quite some time, so don't look for it in the future. The situation in Florida and other border states (Ariz. NM,Texas)are evident of that. There is a need for immigration to be regulated. I would feel the same way as sun god if I were in his situation. I will not criticize where I have not been and have insufficient knowledge of. My wife's family have been in the south for several centuries and some of them were here to greet the europeans so I know from visiting them and talking to them what it can be like to have an influx of non americans into your area.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I swear to the Goddess, ignorance (before the yammerers start to yammer, please take the time to look up the "absence of knowledge" definition for ignorance--thank you) has got to be one of the deadly sins! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif Amen.

I find it highly offensive that the media focuses on things that are supposed to scare us and not on the real issues. We are very fortunate to live on this continent for sure. It is truly a sin that there are people living in squalor or such in such rich nations as ours.

It is far easier to point fingers and blame others (immigrants in this case) than it is to look at our own faults or shortcomings. It is far easier to blame "the other" than it is to get to know them and to build bridges.

If ever there was a time to build bridges between cultures it is now.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by naturalmanwa:
I don't think the US Gov't has shown a great interest in taking care of business at home in any large measure for quite some time, so don't look for it in the future. The situation in Florida and other border states (Ariz. NM,Texas)are evident of that. There is a need for immigration to be regulated. I would feel the same way as sun god if I were in his situation. I will not criticize where I have not been and have insufficient knowledge of. My wife's family have been in the south for several centuries and some of them were here to greet the europeans so I know from visiting them and talking to them what it can be like to have an influx of non americans into your area. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as I stated earlier, immigration in the past is far different than immigration today. When the Mayflower landed, there was undeveloped land as far as the eye could see. Self sufficiency was the name of the game. There was no welfare or government subsidized housing. There were no assistance programs. You worked hard to make a living for your family. Many of the immigrants I have come to know are hard workers. I am not saying that they are not. However, employment is a case of supply and demand. With so many U.S. Citizens out of work, or classified as 'working poor' I believe that we need to improve their standard of living before allowing more people into our nation. Let's at least set limits.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:

I find it highly offensive that the media focuses on things that are supposed to scare us and not on the real issues. We are very fortunate to live on this continent for sure. It is truly a sin that there are people living in squalor or such in such rich nations as ours.

It is far easier to point fingers and blame others (immigrants in this case) than it is to look at our own faults or shortcomings. It is far easier to blame "the other" than it is to get to know them and to build bridges.

If ever there was a time to build bridges between cultures it is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that other nations are less fortunate than ours. We obviously have a higher standard of living than other nations. I am not opposed to charity. I fully support agencies who send aid to poorer countries. However, I do not support open borders. I don't blame the immigrants for anything. I blame our government for policies which keep our poor from improving their lives and open the borders for more to arrive. I blame the government for a tax system which relies on the middle class to provide services to everyone (including people in other nations) without taxing the wealthy proportionately. If you ran your family budget the way the government runs the national budget, you would be in the poor house quite quickly. Try it, Take 30% of your income and give it to the poor. Now, take in everybody who is homeless in your area. Feed them, pay for their medical expenses, and give them an education. Fairly soon you will realize that deficit budgeting does not work.

[Jason Heh]

Yeah I boat! Whitewater/Flatwater canoe....

Oh I guess I should read the WHOLE thread before I post.

[SunGod]

usmc1: I'm not racist, I'm not misinformed or zenophobic. I live here. I see it. Daily. I dont need studies. Nor am I ignorant as to the cause. I know the US lives off the sweat of cheap labor. I employ atleast 40 mexican/columbian, you name it immigrants. They're great people. Hard working. I like almost all of them. I regard them in a differant category however then others for 3 reasons. These men: Are not illegal, they pay taxes, THEY ALL SPEAK ENGLISH. I'm complaining about the non-conformist immigrants. The militant spanish speaker who refuses to learn English (yes, I see tons of them). The border runner who is so happy to be America that the mexican flag is on his car, his shirt, his arm, his hat. I could go on and on. When my Irish family came here 100 years ago, we assimilated, we adapted, we adjusted, we did all we could to fit in and be AMERICANS. These latin immigrants are just here for a buck. If you really want to be honest about it, I think most of them hate us for what we have and have accomplished. That is why they disregard our language, our culture, our mores. I think its a problem, its out of hand, it MUST be regulated. Before its too late.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason Heh:
Yeah I boat! Whitewater/Flatwater canoe....

Oh I guess I should read the WHOLE thread before I post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny, I don't care who you are http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

[David77]

Welfare and Health Care for Immigrants;

http://immigration.about.com/od/ussocialeconomicissues/i/WelfareHealthC.htm

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunGod:
usmc1: I'm not racist, I'm not misinformed or zenophobic. I live here. I see it. Daily. I dont need studies. Nor am I ignorant as to the cause. I know the US lives off the sweat of cheap labor. I employ atleast 40 mexican/columbian, you name it immigrants. They're great people. Hard working. I like almost all of them. I regard them in a differant category however then others for 3 reasons. These men: Are not illegal, they pay taxes, THEY ALL SPEAK ENGLISH. I'm complaining about the non-conformist immigrants. The militant spanish speaker who refuses to learn English (yes, I see tons of them). The border runner who is so happy to be America that the mexican flag is on his car, his shirt, his arm, his hat. I could go on and on. When my Irish family came here 100 years ago, we assimilated, we adapted, we adjusted, we did all we could to fit in and be AMERICANS. These latin immigrants are just here for a buck. If you really want to be honest about it, I think most of them hate us for what we have and have accomplished. That is why they disregard our language, our culture, our mores. I think its a problem, its out of hand, it MUST be regulated. Before its too late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, a finla ttempt to help you out of this fog:

Stupid Irish. Hard-headed, unassimilating people, going around with Shamrocks and green beer, insisting on St. Patrick day parades and green beer. Stupid parades cost us tax dollars, because our police have to line the streets to protect us from a bunch of drunken rowdy Irish hooligans. You know how THEY are, bunch of drunken Papist jerks, go to church and then to the bar to get into fights. They breed like rats, and their kids are snot-nosed little urchins that steal and cause nothing but trouble and then they want to go to our schools and suck up free health care. The only birth control they know, is that they finally die. All they're good for is ditch digging, fighting wars, drinking and fornicating and crying jags.

They should be more like Germans, and appreciate education and rules and regulations instead of dropping brats every ten-months. And what's all that Gallic Erin Go Braugh stuff, don't they understand this is an English speaking country?

Me dear old gran-dah tole me that it wut he heered a growing up, an me dear old mither, bless her saintly soul, said she heered it too, and wasn't herself just a sweet as the blessed virgin and as Irish as paddy's pig.

Now, do you get it? I sure hope so, because otherwise you are seriously demeaning yourself.

[SunGod]

You dont get it and bad example. You think I'm just stereotyping. I'm not. I dont need to. You can deny it all you want, but the unregulated inflow of immigrants in this day and age hurts this country. I see whats really going on. In S. Florida, Lee county, heres a taste of how it is. Latino gangs rob old ladies in Lehigh Acres (what used to be a sleepy lil good ole boy town), latino gangs mark territories on signs in retirement city of Cape Coral. Ft. Myers, H.S. classes taught entirly in spanish to "accomodate" students who's parents do not speak English at home and ergo dont learn it so we dont "hurt their feelings" or make them feel out of the loop. (Boo hoo) http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cry.gif . Home builders must hire entire divisions of spanish speaking employees due to home buyers who speak NO English. Illegal immigrants fruit pickers demand equal rights to vote and healthcare as citizens. It goes on and on. These arrogant people will ruin what we have. This keeps up the country will turn into the same type of 3rd world hell hole as Mexico and the rest of S. America. Back to the original post.....I still say, SAVE AMERICA, SEND THE BOATS BACK!!!!

[sw1sweendog]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif again gotta agree with sun god,why should my kids get half an education because half the class is spoken in spanish,or should i spend more money to send them to private school.and accomadate the poor mexicans,cuz thier parents were to lazy to learn the language.we as a country are spending billions of dollars to support illeagls.call me what you will,but im thinking that money could be spent for a better cause.with any luck congress will pass the bill to build the great wall of america.and keep the illeagls out.and when they get arrested here bus them back.

[Sanslines]

California is a state that is overrun with illegals and has been for some time. California is rapidly becomming a foreign state as the foreign population is growning much faster then the US population. The children of illegals are educated for free in K-12 schools. They receive free health care. There is a big push to give them state driver's licenses. I once got lost in Orange county and stopped to ask for directions. I gave up after 5 attempts as each person I asked could not speak English. Spanish, Tagalog, Vietnamese, Portugese, and Arabic were the languages spoken. The reasons that most illegals come to California are economic. I have seen them dutifully line up at WalMart to send money back home to their families via Western Union. The state actually relies on immigrants (legal or not) as the immigrants are the only ones who overwhelmingly work in the agricultural and construction industries. Go to any Home Depot on a Saturday morning and you will see a bunch at the entrance just waiting for someone to come along and hire them. The solution to the problem that can never be discussed or implemented is to create a stable and prosperous situation in the home countries from where the illegals come from. The temptation to come to the US to earn money and to escape poverty, hunger, lack of hope for a future is just too strong and no wall will keep them out. They will come, work hard, and work for wages that the average american will not work for. We can build a wall from coast to coast and guess what - they will parachute into this country.

[Pieguy]

*coughs politely* I was actually referring to Australia...

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
*coughs politely* I was actually referring to Australia... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, what would happen today if the original settlers of Australia were to show up! All those convicts and soldiers. YIKES! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/freak.gif

You raise a very good point!

[nimrod]

I hear of illegals recieving medical benefits, and drivers licsences, or watever else and it makes me sick! I am disabled and have not worked since 2002, and I still have not been able to recieve any benefits from a government that I have paid through working here and paying taxes, but I get bent over by that government who would rather take care of every other country, and all the illegals, than its own people! Sometimes I feel that if I were here illegally or of a different race that I would be able to recieve what I desperately need.

[nimrod]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
*coughs politely* I was actually referring to Australia... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it mirrors what is happening here in America with the influx of Mexican/Hispanic illegals who cross our borders every day.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nimrod:
I hear of illegals recieving medical benefits, and drivers licsences, or watever else and it makes me sick! I am disabled and have not worked since 2002, and I still have not been able to recieve any benefits from a government that I have paid through working here and paying taxes, but I get bent over by that government who would rather take care of every other country, and all the illegals, than its own people! Sometimes I feel that if I were here illegally or of a different race that I would be able to recieve what I desperately need. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is truly wrong in a country as rich as the US. There does need to be universal healthcare. Perhaps that is why it is not the same issue up here. Though there are folks here who want us to have an American model of healthcare....no thanks.

[fred950]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pieguy:
*coughs politely* I was actually referring to Australia... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pie,
The difference is that 200 years ago, there were actual opportunities for refugees to support themselves. Nowadays, they rely on government programs and cause additional burdons on public services without contributing to the tax base. Here in the U.S., we have millions of people living on government handouts. Add to that all of the refugees and illegal immigrants, and we end up supporting quite a few people with our tax money. Add to that the fact that our government "loans" money to the Italian government to pay for their universal health care program, among other things, and you cna see that we pay quite a bit for taxes. Therefore, we don't need to be spending any more.

Have a GREAT Day!
Kevin


Ketcham, Do you realize that the boat people Pieguy was refering to were in fact Prisoners... the worst of the worst. People so bad our Limey Cousins felt the only thing for them would be an exile literally half way around the world.

Come to think of it, remember Bill Murray's speech in Stripes? One thing many of our Yankee (even those south of the Mason-Dixon) forefathers have in comman is NO other self-respecting country of the world would have them! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif

[KetchumMaine]

Fred950,
You are correct, however I was addressing the opportunities, not the background of the people.
Thanks,
Kevin

[Croydon]

Thank You many of you for reminding me why I no longer participate on CFF. Bunch of ignorant people in here.

I am TRULY offended by many of the comments here.

SunGod, I am one of those people you speak so negatively of. I am from Haiti. I moved in U.S. when I was 4 with my mom. Southern FL has a large Haitian population, as well as Cuban.

Many adults who move to U.S. move for a better life and most importantly, move for their children. They come into this country with the interest of their children at heart. They want to give their kids the chance for the "American Dream."

Are there some who come here and abuse the system? Abosolutely. By the way, it is white teenage women who make up the majority of people on public assistance, NOT immigrants or blacks. Is it fair for you to place all immigrants (and you speak so much of the latinos) in one bucket? Does the action of 1 speak for all? This is no different when white people thinking all blacks are bad. When one black person steals a car,they classify all blacks as car thieves.

My mom came to this country with my interest at heart. We did not have to leave Haiti for economic reasons. By Haitian standard, we were wealthy. My mom was educated, worked in medicine, had a home, and we had a maid. In U.S. my mom had done nothing but work her a** off. She worked double shifts in the hospital to give me a great life. She worked hard to enroll me in private schools throughout my educational career. My mom and many Haitians have done well for themselves in U.S. My mom now owns TWO homes in S. FL

I find that many Americans are simply selfish. They do not want to share the opportunity. They see immigrants taking "their jobs." Last I checked, many of the Mexicans take jobs that NO AMERICAN wishes to do. They are the ones in the fields picking crop, cleaning homes, scrubbing toilets. U.S. welcomes immigrants because they are a source of cheap labor. Immigrants do wonders for the economy.

I leave in NYC, land of immigrants and I LOVE IT. I love the many culture, I love the many different types of people. I live in a neighborhood where 90% of the people are from Central America or Mexico. I do not feel like an outsider in my neighborhood.

You are ignorant SunGod and your comments are racists and hurtful.

Ketchum, I am unsure why you are lamenting. You live in Maine where many of the residents are white as white can be. Maine has VERY little culture and very small amount of "non" whites. Except for the small movement of Ethiopians moving there, I am unsure what your problem is.

[usmc1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Croydon:
Thank You many of you for reminding me why I no longer participate on CFF. Bunch of ignorant people in here.
[QUOTE]

Croydon, thank you. You put it very well. This thread contains some of the most reprehensible, irresponsible, hateful, disgusting and ignorant racism and stereotyping that could exist.

We are a nation of immigrants and each generation of new immigrants faces its own particular hurdles and problems--those are magnified if one is a person of color.

But reasoning with these jokers is like spitting into a gale, not all that rewarding. There is a point at which lazzy ignorance lapses into frightful stupidity and I think we've seen that happen in this thread.

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
It is true there are some ignorant people on here and some stupid ones also. That is why it is important to participate. Educate the ignorant and ignore the stupid ones.

Just remember, however, that just because someone disagrees with you, that does not automatically mean they are stupid.

[alfredr]

Sorry, Pieguy, we seem to have hijacked your boat.

Personally, I'm a land lover (landlubber), not a boat person, but I have a son who was studying oceanography.

But if people believed they could improve their lot in their home country, they wouldn't be risking their lives in boats trying to get to our countries.

And then there are those darn huddled masses yearning to be free, searching for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Where do they get these ideas?

[Sanslines]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Just remember, however, that just because someone disagrees with you, that does not automatically mean they are stupid.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a very true statement Shay. We are all products of our histories and environment and all see things differently depending upon where we live. One thing I neeed to add to this topic is from the perspective of someone who who travelled extensively and lived overseas. America still welcomes immigrants. However, the vast majority of foreign countries would never truly welcome Americans. Americans have a bad name overseas. Travelling on vacations or holidays to foreign countries is one thing. A person can get a very distorted view of a foreign country as that person is usually a tourist on holiday who is spending money. When you give money to people, people are generally happy and so the tourist may get the impression of how friendly that country is. Living and working in a foreign country is an entirely different thing.

[Boreas]

Thank you Croydon and usmc1 for your posts. Well said!

The most powerful woman in Canada, the Governor General and Queen's representative, is an immigrant. She came here from Haiti. The Gov Gen before her was from China (or Hong Kong?). It shows that immigrants can and do rise to become productive and even important members of society.

Franky, I am glad that my ancestors came here from Ireland, England and the US.

[sw1sweendog]

i have no problem with someone comming here to better thir lives,just do it leagly,not illeagly.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Croydon:
Ketchum, I am unsure why you are lamenting. You live in Maine where many of the residents are white as white can be. Maine has VERY little culture and very small amount of "non" whites. Except for the small movement of Ethiopians moving there, I am unsure what your problem is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My comments are more based upon national employment and economy. I believe that our country need to take care of it's own people before we take care of the rest of the world.

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
My Grandfather, moms dad, came from Ireland. My youngest daughters husband is from Mexico. I have nothing against immigrants either. I agree with sw1sweendog it should be done legally.

I am against illegals getting better care from our government than our own citizens. It isn't fair to our tax paying workers and doesn't make sense. (to me)

[SunGod]

Croydon, let me try and rebut you point for point.

"They want to give their kids the chance for the "American Dream."

I guess that when their dream is at the expense of ACTUAL American's dreams, our people, our poor, I just dont care. I put Americans first in line for the "American Dream", then if we still have some left, spread it around.

"Are there some who come here and abuse the system? Abosolutely."

Which if you read my posts are who I'm talking about. The abusers, the criminals, the lazy ones.

"My mom came to this country with my interest at heart. We did not have to leave Haiti for economic reasons. By Haitian standard, we were wealthy. My mom was educated, worked in medicine, had a home, and we had a maid."

Ok, you help me make a point here. If you were wealthy in Haiti, your mother obviosuly educated to be in medicine, why leave? Why not stay and work for a better Haiti? Why not work for the "Haitian Dream", I've seen your island, I've been there, it would be paradise if the people just acted like civilized folks and helped themselves. But, in regards to your mother, no problems here. Personally, when the TOP NOTCH folks from ther countries come here, I think its great. It HELPS America. They contribute in a positive way. I am opposed to the useless people that come here and leach off of our generosity.

"I find that many Americans are simply selfish. They do not want to share the opportunity."

We share it and share it, and what do we get in return?!?!? Where is the benefit to America? Call me a bit of a socialist but I think everyone should contribute to their society and to its continuity. Its not selfish to want a return on our investment of generosity. Its common sense and fair. We give billions every year to countries too lazy or dumb to help themselves, what does it do for us? We could be feeding/housing our poor instead of someone elses poor.

"They see immigrants taking "their jobs." Last I checked, many of the Mexicans take jobs that NO AMERICAN wishes to do."

I have 20 or so that work for me. All legal, all speak English, all are incredibly hard working and I can ALWAYS depend on them in a pinch. Back to my original point, its the illegal ones I am against.

"You are ignorant SunGod and your comments are racists and hurtful."

Who am I hurting? Not the LEGAL immigrants. Not anyone who does things the right way. Exactly what am I ignorant of? Its certainly not of the state I live in and its radically changing demographic makeup. Nor am I a racists, but let me say that just like latinos,black,asians and whoever have the right to their own land, culture, language, etc., so do white people and I for one have no problem standing up for it. It seems like a defacto theme in the US that white english speaking Americans must be apologetic and accomodating to the detrement of their communites, counties, and states. I think its REVERSE RACISM and I am not buying into it, and I am not sorry about a thing!

"Ketchum, I am unsure why you are lamenting. You live in Maine where many of the residents are white as white can be. Maine has VERY little culture and very small amount of "non" whites. Except for the small movement of Ethiopians moving there, I am unsure what your problem is.[/QUOTE]"

I know you were not addressing me here, but you paint yourself as quite the lover of culture my friend. So by your own words, anyplace full of white people has very little culture? I guess only non-whites have culture? You also assume that all white people are racist and only want to be around whites. Thank you for voicing your true feelings of white people, it keeps us all on the same page. Like I said above, reverse racism. These immigrants hate us for who we are and what we have. They have no problem coming here, they just have a problem with US being here.

Sorry about the Aussie comment http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/confused.gif, I do realize we were supposed to be talking about Australia.

[alfredr]

How does the saying go about you can borrow money from the bank if you can show them you don't need it, but you can't get a loan if you're poor? Immigration policy is much like that.

The "TOP NOTCH" people get in easily; they are educated and wealthy, they don't need to come here to improve their situation. Poor people don't have much of a chance.

Between the "TOP NOTCH' and the "useless" ones are the vast majority working class people who would love to be working legally, but the system denies them legal status. There just isn't any way for them to become legal.

If they take advantage of whatever public assistance they can when they get sick, maybe they can't afford to pay a doctor themselves because they are working low-wage jobs that Americans won't do. But they are contributing to our society. They are building our houses, washing dishes in our restaurant, mowing our yards, etc. Would these things be as affordable if they weren't here doing them? Wouldn't the economy be much slower if things cost more because of higher labor costs?

We should legalize more immigration to have fewer illegal immigrants. They want to work. They are here working. They are the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to be free. They will make our countries stronger and better.

It won't be the same country we grew up with, but the country we grew up with is not the one our parents grew up with, or our grandparents, either.

Our (U.S.) immigration policy is about keepig people out, not about letting them in.

[usmc1]

I wondered when we saw the trial ballons about how wonderful George Wallace and Lester Maddox were what was driving it.

Here from People For The American Way..an explanation: some of the same old nasty boogie-men are slithering back up out of the swamp targetting "illegal aliens" as their newest scapegoats.

"Some of you have emailed me asking, "Why is People For the American Way supporting comprehensive immigration reform?" To me, we're working for comprehensive immigration reform for the same reason we've defended gays and lesbians against mean-spirited legislation and fought to protect the voting rights of historically disenfranchised communities: our commitment to fight the Radical Right.

The same cadre of activists who have scapegoated gay people and African Americans now have immigrants in their crosshairs. The American Independent Party -- founded to support the presidential bids of racist demagogue Alabama Governor George Wallace -- recently nominated anti-immigrant vigilante James Gilchrist for Congress. Anti-feminist, anti-choice, and anti-gay crusader Phyllis Schlaffly has recently become vociferously anti-immigrant.

The Senate is now choosing between two different approaches to immigration reform. One, backed by the extreme Right and Majority Leader Bill Frist, rehashes the inadequate border enforcement policies that have failed for the past 20 years while making criminals of priests, domestic violence counselors, and social service providers who help undocumented people in need. The other, proposed by Senators Kennedy and McCain -- and endorsed by PFAW -- combines border enforcement with policies that are fair and realistic. It includes provisions that:

provide a path to earn citizenship for those already working in the country after paying a fine for having broken our immigration laws;
make the reunification of families a priority, removing the need for immigrants to come illegally to join their fathers, mothers, and spouses; create a visa program recognizing the demand for immigrant workers to fill jobs Americans cannot or will not do.

Today, People For the American Way is launching a petition calling for comprehensive immigration reform including these provisions. We're joining with unionized workers who believe they will get a fairer deal when employers can no longer pit workers without legal protections against union members. And we are working with new allies in the religious and business communities.

It's critical that that you add your name to this petition. If Senator Frist and his allies get their way, our immigration system will still be broken while millions continue to be forced to live in the shadows. Say no to the radical right by signing today!


http://pfaw.kintera.org/CIR

Sincerely,

Ralph G. Neas
President

[OZJames]

Apart from the indigenous populations of Australia and USA we are all “boat people” or descendants of boat people. Racism is a huge problem in our western developed countries (and eastern countries for that matter) and politics is dirty. Put the two together and there is trouble. The polies recognize that they need to get votes from wherever they can, so, as happened in Australia, the Howard Government yielded to the wishes of the racist sector of our community and metered out racist and harsh treatment to boat people in an effort to get more votes – the Govt of course said it was in an effort to stop the boat people. In that they were successful and so were re-elected with an increased majority. I am ashamed of what the Govt has done, especially locking “boat people” up without trial for years.- They should have been processed QUICKLY and given Australian residency or sent back. I am sure many Americans would be ashamed at the treatment that has been metered out to “prisoners of war” in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay.

All countries of the world have racist problems. Because of amazing communication and fast travel the world is becoming “smaller” every day – we must all learn to live and mix with other people of different colours, races, religions, customs etc. What is important is to find ways to give everyone a good education and to reduce poverty and the huge gap between rich and poor – do that and crime, racism, hatred will diminish.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[KetchumMaine]

As this topic seems to be dying off, I thought I would post a quick thought....


If we think of national events in a local sense, it becomes more obvious where the issue lies...


Consider that a family of immigrants show up in your yard one morning. Laws require you to feed, clothe,and educate them. But there is no money provided for the purpose (gee, an-unfunded mandate, go figure). So, you need to do this on your family budget. Suddenly, one gets sick and you are required to provide medical care despite the fact that they don't have insurance and can't be on yours. The next day, two more families show up in your yard. None of these people speak english. They are not allowed to work legally. What do you do??

Now let's consider the alternative. You invite an exchange student to live with you. You plan for the visit, and there are monies available to provide for the person. They are covered by a healthcare program, and they have learned english before arriving.



Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition. If immigrants want citizenship, let them follow the proper procedures, just like my grandparents did.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
As this topic seems to be dying off, I thought I would post a quick thought....


If we think of national events in a local sense, it becomes more obvious where the issue lies...


Consider that a family of immigrants show up in your yard one morning. Laws require you to feed, clothe,and educate them. But there is no money provided for the purpose (gee, an-unfunded mandate, go figure). So, you need to do this on your family budget. Suddenly, one gets sick and you are required to provide medical care despite the fact that they don't have insurance and can't be on yours. The next day, two more families show up in your yard. None of these people speak english. They are not allowed to work legally. What do you do??

Now let's consider the alternative. You invite an exchange student to live with you. You plan for the visit, and there are monies available to provide for the person. They are covered by a healthcare program, and they have learned english before arriving.



Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition. If immigrants want citizenship, let them follow the proper procedures, just like my grandparents did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for again demonstrating the puerile perspective with a hypothetical which has no basis in fact.

As to legalities and illegalities, there are many status offenders who are indeed engaged in non-prosecuted illegality, not just undocumented workers.

[florida-david]

From a native Ft. Lauderdale person (me)...

1. The real americans are the native indians. With this ignorant new attitude over immigration, i think we should all get the hell out and give the land back to the true native people.
2. It is annoying to not be able to speak to any construction workers since none seem to know english. People should learn the language if they want to stay in the U.S.
3. It is terrible the way Haitians are mistreated in the US. They get returned immediately to their country while Cubans get to stay. I would say the situation in Haiti is much worse that Cuba. Why the special treatment for Cubans? Politics at its worst, that's what.
4. The Cubans and other Hispanics have been in Miami and the real south florida for some time now (that is the east side of the southern tip of florida, the west side is for old folks which is why culture has stayed away until recently). Miami has become an even greater city do to the latin influence. Latin $$$ are keeping our economy thriving. You might want to ***** about them, maybe because they are more intelligent and wealthier than you?


i am on both sides of the fence. jay leno had a joke that we can not even keep people off the whgitehouse lawn, does anyone really think a wall along the mexiacan border will keep people out? Probably a Bush friend builds walls and needs some new work...

[Boreas]

I think the whole manner of responding to "illegal aliens/imigrants" these days is alarming. Especially in a country that calls itself the land of the free. Both Canada and the US are settled by immigrants.

Making simplistic decisions such as "legal vs illegal" is NOT going to solve the problem.

Does anyone look at the bigger picture these days?

Why are people coming to these countries illegally. In Canada, we have some incredibly deep layers of red-tape and bureaucracy for immigrants. Can that not be addressed? Does the the immigration process really need to be so complicated? I live in a part of the country that has way more jobs than bodies to fill them. I am sure that immigration would help. It has helped in the past. The university I attended brought a whole bunch of stone masons over from Britain in the sixties in order to expand the campus.

Why are people leaving their own countries? Most people do not leave a country willingly. If things were wonderful at home they'd stay. That includes most of our own ancestors.

Why is the social services network based on a sense of deserving and undeserving. Any one of us could find ourselves needing social services of some kind. Will we be declared "deserving"?

I could go on.

[OZJames]

KetchumMaine - QUOTE "Consider that a family of immigrants show up in your yard one morning. Laws require you to feed, clothe,and educate them. But there is no money provided for the purpose"

Yes I agree that would be tough BUT we are both citizens of VERY RICH western coutries and our countries DO HAVE MONEY to feed and look after thousands of immigrants. In Aust. our Govt locked these boat people up for YEARS , that cost a lot more than processing them and sending them back or allowing them to stay to become TAXPAYING CITIZENS and thus they would be supporting (and perhaps voting for) the Govt in the future.

Your analogy is irrevelant - http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smash.gif

I guess USA has a different problem to Australia . Mexicans and South Americans can just walk in across the border. Here boat people need a boat and must suffer a lot more hardship, cost and risk trying to get into Australia. It is often only the desparate people actually in fear of persecution who try to come here. Citizens who are in danger of political persecution are admitted.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[nacktman]

We are all "Boat People", learn to live with it! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smash.gif

There is not a place on earth that has not been "settled" by someone arriving on a boat ... even going back to the ice ages and the "Land-Bridges" that existed then, most people went by water to new lands.

So, unless you can trace your direct ancestry back, oh, say, 40,000 years and know for a fact your ancestors "walked" over one of those Land-Bridges, your "people" arrived on a boat, wherever you are.

New arrivals have always been a concern of the "native" population (Just look what it got the "Native" Americans of North & South America and the "Native" Aboriginies of Austraila when the Europeans "arrived").
This is not even mentioning "other" groups and cultures from around the globe that have moved from place to place.

It is better for people wishing to emigrate to do so within the established guidelines of the country they wish to emigrate to ... but let's be real ... it don't always work that way, McGhee.

[KetchumMaine]

(Sorry, as this thread had started to die off, I decided to revive the discussion based upon the current immigration controversy in the U.S. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif.)

My analogy is not irrelevant. This country is my home (much like the home in which I live). The federal income comes out of my pocket (much like my paycheck). The federal government has a limited budget (much like my household budget). The immigrant family in the back yard is represenative of the millions of illegal aliens. Just as I cannot support a family of illegal aliens in my back yard, neither can the federal government support millions of illegal aliens. If you are a wealthy person, then I encourage you to host a family of immigrants.

The U.S. federal government does a good job of spending my money quickly. In return, I get a choice between two politicians who are loyal to political parties. How can they represent me if they don't agree with me??

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OZJames:

Yes I agree that would be tough BUT we are both citizens of VERY RICH western coutries and our countries DO HAVE MONEY to feed and look after thousands of immigrants.
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Somebody told you a lie, the U.S. is no longer rich. The politicians are rich, the baseball players are rich, and some businesspeople are rich, but those who pay the taxes are NOT rich. Our current largest export is JOBS. We import everything and export very little. Much of our businesses are owned by foreign persons & corporations. Our national debt is staggering. Despite this, we loan money to other countries with no expectation of return. We fund national healthcare for the entire country of Italy. If I ran my household in the same manner as the federal government runs the country, I would go bankrupt (which was recently made all but illegal). To the next generation, we are passing on a major debt, ecological problems and political turmoil which is likely to destroy the world. This is all thanks to the foreign policy of our beloved federal governmant over the past 30 years. Thanks a lot Republicans & Democrats. Your greed will destroy the world.

[nacktman]

Ketchum, I don't know who licked the red off your candy cane today, but it wasn't me.

BTW my post was to point out "WE ALL" are boat people and have to learn to accept that, not to respond to any particular person or any POV on the immigration "issue".

[sw1sweendog]

last time i checked,in mexico it's a felony to enter thier country illegally.up to 2 years in prison if caught.just ask the folks to thier south,but it's ok for them to break our laws......?give me a break,laws are laws.

[OZJames]

KETCHUMAINE - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I get a choice between two politicians who are loyal to political parties. How can they represent me if they don't agree with me?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TRY TO CHANGE THE GOVERNEMENT

In Australia we have what is essentially a two party system BUT we can vote for any other candidate e.g. the "Greens" or the "Democrats" or the "family party" etc. I know that if we do that there is no chance of any party other than the two major parties from being elected BUT here, in recent years the "greens" political power has increased a lot.

Now the major parties take notice of what they say to entice "green" voters to their party.

In USA, can you vote for minor parties/candidates ? thereby starting a movement against the two major parties. Rivers start from a puddle.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OZJames:
KETCHUMAINE - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I get a choice between two politicians who are loyal to political parties. How can they represent me if they don't agree with me?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TRY TO CHANGE THE GOVERNEMENT

In Australia we have what is essentially a two party system BUT we can vote for any other candidate e.g. the "Greens" or the "Democrats" or the "family party" etc. I know that if we do that there is no chance of any party other than the two major parties from being elected BUT here, in recent years the "greens" political power has increased a lot.

Now the major parties take notice of what they say to entice "green" voters to their party.

In USA, can you vote for minor parties/candidates ? thereby starting a movement against the two major parties. Rivers start from a puddle.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the opportunity is there, but everything is still controlled by the big two. The rules have been written to virtually exclude other parties. It would take an act of Congress to change things, and we all know who runs Congress. Besides, any time that a new party emerges, one of the big two changes it's platform just enough to keep people from changing parties.

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Ketchum, I don't know who licked the red off your candy cane today, but it wasn't me.

BTW my post was to point out "WE ALL" are boat people and have to learn to accept that, not to respond to any particular person or any POV on the immigration "issue". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I disagree that we are all "boat people". Yes, most of our ancesters arrived by boat, however, the term "boat people" commonly referrs to those who flee a country in small watercraft in an attempt to land on a foreign country's shore illegally. My grandparents arrived on a commercial boat using official visas and followed immigration procedures. They were assisted by relatives who had arrived earlier, and legally obtained work to settle their family in this country.

Secondly, I take offense to anyone telling to just "live with it". We have laws and procedures in this country. If the President and Congress do not choose to follow the laws, I have a right to complain. If it puts a financial hardship on my friends and family, I have a right to advocate change.

[nacktman]

Ketchum, sorry to spoil your day but unless your family was members of the Pequot Indian nation (in the New England area) when they arrived, they were "boat people" and they did so "illegally" as the Pequot's did not allow immigration into their nation by such means.

But that did not stop the Europeans from coming nor from committing mass murder at what is known as Mystic, Conn., today, in 1637 to remove the "unwelcomed and heathen" native population from what the Europeans thought of as "their country".

Fast forward to today ... same basic story ... "native" population and immigrant population at loggerheads ... details and outcome hopefully different.

[OZJames]

NACKTMAN - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ketchum, sorry to spoil your day but unless your family was members of the Pequot Indian nation (in the New England area) when they arrived, they were "boat people" and they did so "illegally" as the Pequot's did not allow immigration into their nation by such means.

But that did not stop the Europeans from coming nor from committing mass murder at what is known as Mystic, Conn., today, in 1637 to remove the "unwelcomed and heathen" native population from what the Europeans thought of as "their country". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

Ditto Australia - The Aboriginals tried to resist the English boat people in the first and early fleets to Australia but of course failed dismally because of the settlers (boat peoples) guns. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/angry.gif

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">JAMES</span> http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[KetchumMaine]

I believe that the United States was completely settled by the early 1900's. By then there were established procedures for immigration, which my grandparents followed. However, my lineage has nothing to do with modern day immigration issues. You are just using it as an attack in an effort to make me look bad. Sorry, it didn't work.


The fact of the matter remains that our taxpayers cannot afford to carry the burdon of supporting the many illegal immigrants who drift ashore on a daily basis.

[nacktman]

Sorry to disappoint you again Ketchum, but no one is trying to make you look bad nor are they attacking you.

So whatever bee that has gotten under your bonnet is your problem, not ours, ok.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I believe that the United States was completely settled by the early 1900's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't think Maine is "completely settled" even today! Most of the State is "trees" and "Moose" outside of the shiny strip of civilization.

The "taxpayers burden" of supporting illegal immigrants is a canard. Taxpayers do not "support" immigrants, legal or illegal. Neither are eligible for welfare, medicare, or most social programs. Applying for assistance is grounds for deportation even for legals. Illegals are reluctant to use any services that would expose them to deportation. The vast majority of illegals pay taxes - some with 'legal' taxpayer ID's, other with made up social security numbers. At least $7 billion dollars per year are contributed to social security alone that will never have to be paid back - $300 Billion in free money over the last 20 years (enough to pay for the Iraq war).

Although many anti-immigrant groups claim otherwise, illegals pay far more in taxes than they use in public services. They pay local sales and use taxes, property taxes when they buy homes, or indirectly when they pay rent. However, a huge chunk of their taxes go to the federal government and is never sent back to the local communities and school districts who need it. It is not fairly distributed.

I'm not advocating illegal immigration, just pointing out that the "taxpayer burden" argument is phoney.

Now lets talk about downward wage pressure. I don't believe there are "jobs that Americans won't do" if you offered them a decent wage to do it. Hell, I know people who clean up homes where rotting corpses were found.

-Mark

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
I don't think Maine is "completely settled" even today! Most of the State is "trees" and "Moose" outside of the shiny strip of civilization.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calling Dr. Heimer, Dr. Weisen Heimer.......

I think you know what I meant. In the 1600's most people on earth didn't even know that what we know as North America even existed. Today, every square inch of it is owned by someone or claimed by a governmental entity. Here in Maine we don't need nor do we want, skyscrapers. We are happy with our open spaces and fresh air.

[Quote}The "taxpayers burden" of supporting illegal immigrants is a canard. Taxpayers do not "support" immigrants, legal or illegal. Neither are eligible for welfare, medicare, or most social programs. Applying for assistance is grounds for deportation even for legals. Illegals are reluctant to use any services that would expose them to deportation. The vast majority of illegals pay taxes - some with 'legal' taxpayer ID's, other with made up social security numbers. At least $7 billion dollars per year are contributed to social security alone that will never have to be paid back - $300 Billion in free money over the last 20 years (enough to pay for the Iraq war).

Although many anti-immigrant groups claim otherwise, illegals pay far more in taxes than they use in public services. They pay local sales and use taxes, property taxes when they buy homes, or indirectly when they pay rent. However, a huge chunk of their taxes go to the federal government and is never sent back to the local communities and school districts who need it. It is not fairly distributed.

I'm not advocating illegal immigration, just pointing out that the "taxpayer burden" argument is phoney.

Now lets talk about downward wage pressure. I don't believe there are "jobs that Americans won't do" if you offered them a decent wage to do it. Hell, I know people who clean up homes where rotting corpses were found.

-Mark[/QUOTE]

Wow, what a wonderful immagination you have. It is natural or do you "enhance" your immagination with help from mother nature?? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif
So, THAT's the reason Governor ARNOLD is trying to get licenses for illegal aliens, so that thay can pay taxes legally???

[usmc1]

Yep, what we got here is a right curious issue. Yessir, it's a right proper little old wedge issue which has the xenophobes and racists with their knickers in a knot over "illegal" workers but mostly mum or defensive about illegal wiretaps authorized by their president.

I depends on, I guess, who is doing the illegaling before it becomes an issue. But, let's set aside their hypocrisy and racism for the nonce, shall we?

Even while they're screaming in bold caps that the illegals are yada, yada, yada, their masters in D.C. are dividing among themselves. The Republican Chamber of Commerce types and the Corporate types know the economic value of low wage undocumented workers and are voting and lobbying each other accordingly. The reactionary neo-cons are losing their grip on the party and continue to yammer for tighter immigration controls, severe restrictions and round ups and deportations.

The Democrats, with a one finger in the wind, another up their butt are waiting for someone to yell switch, and are waffling between doing what is right, worrying about recovering some of the NASCAR dads and realizing that undocumented workers do not vote.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room, the federal bureaucracy, stays silent because those undocumented workers with phoney paperwork pay billions and billions into payroll taxes that will never be collected by them.

So we're left with racist xenophobes huffing and puffing about illegal aliens and decent fair-thinking people fighting the race hatred and trying to come up with realistic answers for the problems brought about by economic migration while at the same time rebuting hysterical nonsense from the xenophobes.

But, as a wedge issue, it is not working, most Americans are not buying into the xenophobic, racist hardline approach. Most Americans see the humanity behind the quarrel and are searching for a decnt fairminded solution while deploring the race-baiting and hatred expressed by the xenophobes.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wow, what a wonderful immagination you have. It is natural or do you "enhance" your immagination with help from mother nature?? Smiler
So, THAT's the reason Governor ARNOLD is trying to get licenses for illegal aliens, so that thay can pay taxes legally??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks for the compliment, but I can't claim credit. <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> Illegal Immigrants Still Pay Taxes

Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that “illegal aliens” cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. “[E]very empirical study of illegals’ economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . . undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services.” . . . each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.

Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and the earned income tax credit (EITC). Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. [/list] To reiterate, even though illegals are not a NET drain on public resources, the distribution of taxes from illegals does not go proportionately to the localities that incur the most costs from them. I.E. Washington profits while California pays.


As for Ahhnold, business LOVES illegal aliens, they keep wages low, he just has to make sure the government doesn't start enforcing the laws against employers of illegals. It is a plus if he can extract more state revenue from illegals rather than sending all the tax profit to Washington.


http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2006/02/lipman_on_taxin.html#more
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml


-Mark

[nacktman]

"Can't we all just get along?"
Rodney King

[Trailscout]

A lot of things need to happen to fix the problem.

The hispanics who are here need a helping hand toward integration into our society.

We need sufficient control over our borders to allow us to decide how much immigration to allow each year.

It used to be that landscapers, construction workers and IT workers could support their families. Lobbyists kept whining about labor shortages and Congress responded by increasing legal immigration to the point that these jobs no longer paid a living wage. The problem won't be fixed unless the rights to a living wage are ensured.

If the border is not secured, existing immigrants will be in the same boat long-time citizens are in. There will be a new influx of cheap illegal labor and today's immigrants will be out of work.

The problem is not solved unless we also implement tariffs to counteract cheap foreign goods, and take some steps to block overseas outsourcing.

Mexico and all of central America cannot continue to rely on the United States to provide jobs. They need social and economic reform in situ.

I agree that some parts of our country are bearing a disproportionate share of the cost of medical care and education for immigrants. I recently heard about one hospital in Dallas Texas that is on the verge of financial collapse because of the care of indigent patients.

I am the son of an immigrant and I have cousins in spanish speaking countries. I have lived in areas where the people are proud of their American liberties and citizenship and yet cherish their historic ties to the "old country".

But the status quo benefits a few business owners to the detriment of the immigrants and US citizens and our common security and prosperity.

[usmc1]

Ketchum wrote [QUOTE]...You are just using it as an attack in an effort to make me look bad. Sorry, it didn't work. QUOTE]

You need no help from anyone there, you're doing a much better than adequate job.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trailscout:
A lot of things need to happen to fix the problem.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The hispanics who are here need a helping hand toward integration into our society..[/QUOTE]

What does this vague bromide really mean? Act like anglos, give up Spanish, eat fried chicken or roast beef on Sunday?

.[/QUOTE]We need sufficient control over our borders to allow us to decide how much immigration to allow each year..[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is true. And sufficient control to assure ourselves that some whacko with a back-pack full of misery doesn't get in.

.[/QUOTE]It used to be that landscapers, construction workers and IT workers could support their families. Lobbyists kept whining about labor shortages and Congress responded by increasing legal immigration to the point that these jobs no longer paid a living wage. The problem won't be fixed unless the rights to a living wage are ensured..[/QUOTE]

What's this mean? What precisely is a living wage. Are you suggesting an increase in the minimum wage?

.[/QUOTE]If the border is not secured, existing immigrants will be in the same boat long-time citizens are in. There will be a new influx of cheap illegal labor and today's immigrants will be out of work..[/QUOTE]

Actually unemployment is rather low right now, the problem seems to be that the jobs being created are low paying service sector and information processing.

.[/QUOTE]The problem is not solved unless we also implement tariffs to counteract cheap foreign goods, and take some steps to block overseas outsourcing..[/QUOTE]

Tariffs lead to war. Always, without exception. Like it or not, under globalization, there is emerging two standards for sucessful nations: adherence to the rule of law and avoidance of tariffs with full participation in free trade.

From the outside looking in, the U.S.A. is beginning to look somewhat like the early stages of a failed state to some.

M.[/QUOTE]exico and all of central America cannot continue to rely on the United States to provide jobs. They need social and economic reform in situ..[/QUOTE]

Do you really want that level of social and economic upheaval and revolution on our southern border?

.[/QUOTE]I agree that some parts of our country are bearing a disproportionate share of the cost of medical care and education for immigrants. I recently heard about one hospital in Dallas Texas that is on the verge of financial collapse because of the care of indigent patients..[/QUOTE]

Apocryphal stories such as this feed zenophobia and racism. It is not use of health services that is the problem, the problem is that we do not provide universal health care, from cradle to grave, for all.

Provide and fund healthcare and the problem goes away.

[/QUOTE]I am the son of an immigrant and I have cousins in spanish speaking countries. I have lived in areas where the people are proud of their American liberties and citizenship and yet cherish their historic ties to the "old country".[/QUOTE]

Ok.

[/QUOTE]But the status quo benefits a few business owners to the detriment of the immigrants and US citizens and our common security and prosperity.[/QUOTE]

And this is a revelation?

[Trailscout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Ketchum, sorry to spoil your day but unless your family was members of the Pequot Indian nation (in the New England area) when they arrived, they were "boat people" and they did so "illegally" as the Pequot's did not allow immigration into their nation by such means.

But that did not stop the Europeans from coming nor from committing mass murder at what is known as Mystic, Conn., today, in 1637 to remove the "unwelcomed and heathen" native population from what the Europeans thought of as "their country".

Fast forward to today ... same basic story ... "native" population and immigrant population at loggerheads ... details and outcome hopefully different. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I live on land that used to be part of the Cherokee Nation. And to complicate things, maybe a third of the people here are part Cherokee.

Of course the Creek will remind you that the Cherokee took this land from them by force back in the 1600's after a decisive battle at Blood Mountain GA.

And black folks will remind you that coming here was forced on them. After 200 years of slavery in Georgia, it could be argued that they have earned the right to be here.

A fair number of Georgians were brought here forcibly to clear Britain's debtor prisons.

It's a little late to suggest that any one ethnic group go back to where they came from.

But things are back to the days of Andrew Carnegie's steel mill. Where the rich factory owners fired an entire town of overworked union factory workers, used a private army of Pinkerton men to bring in immigrant scabs to work for even lower pay and harsher conditions. For 40 years the capitalists kept union labor out of the mills. Then they brought the mills south to Georgia, the Carolina's and elsewhere where there were no unions and workers were willing to work for a pittance. When the owners saw a chance to move the mills overseas to even cheaper labor, they shut many of our mills and factories.

So whether they do it by illegal labor or overseas outsourcing, the robber barons win again and the working man has to figure out how to survive just like it happened a century ago.

[Trailscout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
What does this vague bromide really mean? Act like anglos, give up Spanish, eat fried chicken or roast beef on Sunday?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Our family has not given up our heritage. You should try Mom's Arroz con Pollo sometime! But fluency in English and getting an education were important to our moving beyond the lean times when our family first came here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
What's this mean? What precisely is a living wage. Are you suggesting an increase in the minimum wage?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> Minimum wage should go up, but it won't address the issue of undercutting the wages of working folks. A living wage in Atlanta is way above minimum. Try supporting a family of four or five on less than 45 or 50 k/yr. I don't recommend it. Wages are undercut by importing labor everytime corporate America thinks they are paying too much for labor.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
Actually unemployment is rather low right now, the problem seems to be that the jobs being created are low paying service sector and information processing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what I intended to say, but you expressed it more precisely.

Trailscout said:
Mexico and all of central America cannot continue to rely on the United States to provide jobs. They need social and economic reform in situ..

USMC:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Do you really want that level of social and economic upheaval and revolution on our southern border?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hate war and anarchy, but frankly Mexico and Central America are in bad need of reform and social unrest is always simmering.


USMC:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Apocryphal stories such as this feed zenophobia and racism. It is not use of health services that is the problem, the problem is that we do not provide universal health care, from cradle to grave, for all.

Provide and fund healthcare and the problem goes away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problems in Dallas are real. Local people cannot afford to fund it. Parkland Hospital must have federal help.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trailscout said: But the status quo benefits a few business owners to the detriment of the immigrants and US citizens and our common security and prosperity.

And this is a revelation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If any Republicans are reading this, it may be a revelation. Otherwise I probably am preaching to the choir.

[Trailscout]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nacktman:
Ketchum, sorry to spoil your day but unless your family was members of the Pequot Indian nation (in the New England area) when they arrived, they were "

[nacktman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Trailscout:
So wether they do it by illgeal labor or over seas outsourcing, the robber barons win again and the working man has to figure out how to survive just like what happened a century ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you're right your right ...

21 meat cutters in Detroit were fired for attending a immigration rally,

6 workers at a seafood restaurant in Houston got the axe,

several students in Tampa are suspended from school,

and 1 death by suicide of a 14yr old boy in Los Angeles who was threatened by a school official for attending an immigration rally ...

all point to a problem ... seek better conditions or uniform enforcement of existing immigration laws and you're f@*ked ... just the way the neo-cons want it to be ... cheap if not no cost labor and no regulatory oversight in sight.

This hurts the economy of all middle class and working poor workers and boost the economy of the upper class and this is the real "problem" with immigration, illegal or otherwise.
Until the "robber barons" are stopped and their wealth gutted to where they can cause no further harm it will always be so.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's a little late to suggest that any one ethnic group go back to where they came from. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. And it's unfair to pick on just one ethnic group.

You should ALL go.

Of course I'm staying because I'm 1/16th Native.

Buh Bye,
Buy Bye.
Don't forget to turn off the porch light.

-Mark

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Trailscout:
So wether they do it by illgeal labor or over seas outsourcing, the robber barons win again and the working man has to figure out how to survive just like what happened a century ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you're right your right ...

21 meat cutters in Detroit were fired for attending a immigration rally,

6 workers at a seafood restaurant in Houston got the axe,

several students in Tampa are suspended from school,

and 1 death by suicide of a 14yr old boy in Los Angeles who was threatened by a school official for attending an immigration rally ...

all point to a problem ... seek better conditions or uniform enforcement of existing immigration laws and you're f@*ked ... just the way the neo-cons want it to be ... cheap if not no cost labor and no regulatory oversight in sight.

This hurts the economy of all middle class and working poor workers and boost the economy of the upper class and this is the real "problem" with immigration, illegal or otherwise.
Until the "robber barons" are stopped and their wealth gutted to where they can cause no further harm it will always be so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the US...."Land of the Free" right?

You guys value and pride yourself on the ability to have free speech?

So, what kind of nonsense is this for a country with such values?

[nacktman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originaly posted by Still-Boreas:

This is the US...."Land of the Free" right?

You guys value and pride yourself on th ability to have free speech?

So, what kind of nonsense is this for a country with such values? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still-Boreas whatever gave you the impression we value and have the ability to have free spech? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

This is Amerika "Land of the Free"to march in lockstep... yer lept, yer lept yer lept, rite, lept ...

*****
Careful they're watching us.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Still-Boreas whatever gave you the impression we value and have the ability to have free spech? Roll Eyes

This is Amerika "Land of the Free"to march in lockstep... yer lept, yer lept yer lept, rite, lept ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Get this, the White House LIES about WMDs in 2003. We now have documentation that proves it was a lie, and that the administration knew it was a lie before the President and Secretary of State said it.

The press reports it.

The White House demands an apology for reporting their lies. And according to Scotty McClellan, at least one network DID apologise.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/12/mcclellan-demands-apologize/
http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/3960

-Mark

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's a little late to suggest that any one ethnic group go back to where they came from. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. And it's unfair to pick on just one ethnic group.

You should ALL go.

Of course I'm staying because I'm 1/16th Native.

Buh Bye,
Buy Bye.
Don't forget to turn off the porch light.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Mark, only 1/16th of you can stay, the rest has to go. Have fun figuring out that dilemma http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Still-Boreas whatever gave you the impression we value and have the ability to have free spech? Roll Eyes

This is Amerika "Land of the Free"to march in lockstep... yer lept, yer lept yer lept, rite, lept ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Get this, the White House LIES about WMDs in 2003. We now have documentation that proves it was a lie, and that the administration knew it was a lie before the President and Secretary of State said it.

The press reports it.

The White House demands an apology for reporting their lies. And according to Scotty McClellan, at least one network DID apologise.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/12/mcclellan-demands-apologize/
http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/3960

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I told everyone that there were no WMDs, but nobody believed me. I was called an unpatriotic &(^&%&%(&^&*%^%&^. WHY didn't they believe me??

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:

Sorry Mark, only 1/16th of you can stay, the rest has to go. Have fun figuring out that dilemma http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the 1st to go is the love handles ...

-Mark

[Bob S.]

Mark:""The vast majority of illegals pay taxes - some with 'legal' taxpayer ID's, other with made up social security numbers"

OK, so we have people who violate US laws by crossing our border illegally getting jobs by way of identity theft or misuse of identifying documents. Now tell me Mark, what other group of people would you allow this kind of criminal activity to thrive?

There is no simple solution to the illegal immigration problem. It is going to take the governments of Mexico and the other Central and South American countries where these people come from to fix their economies.

Maybe it will take easier and quicker immigration/visa paperwork on both sides of the border to make legal immigration more attractive. And possibly more teeth in the laws for those who violate our borders to make illegal immigration less attractive.

We are not going to solve the illegal immigration problem this year with any bill that Congress can give us. We won't solve it until all of the underlying problems are solved.

Bob S.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OK, so we have people who violate US laws by crossing our border illegally getting jobs by way of identity theft or misuse of identifying documents. Now tell me Mark, what other group of people would you allow this kind of criminal activity to thrive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're getting confused Bob. I am NOT saying anyone should get away with criminal behavior.

I DO object to false information being used in a discussioin, especially one so (deliberately) infected with racism - the playing of the 'fear of brown people' card.

The idea that Illegals suck away our tax dollars is just not true - they pay far more than they consume in public resources - precisely because as illegals they cannot use most social support programs.

But ... that in no way means we should throw our borders open to the world. No country in the world does that, and for good reason. It does not mean we should turn a blind eye to those who came here illegally, or to those who employ them - as has been the unofficial policy of the current administration for the last 5 years (fines for employing illegals went from thousands of corporations charged per year under Clinton to fewer than a handful or none for several years under Bush).

We cannot possibly deport 11 million people, but we can find a workable and just way to regularize their status without granting 'amnesty' - by putting them at the end of the line for legal permanent status - if they can prove themselves - and requiring restitution through fines and public service.

And if we have the will we can stop illegal hiring - just start fining any employer who knowingly hires an illegal $50,000 per incident - and split the proceeds with the whistleblower - even if the whistleblower was the illegal worker herself. You'd soon see a line at the border of people leaving the country.

Fair?

-Mark

[hm0504]

Opinion by Eric Margolis:
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Margolis_Eric...6/04/16/1536088.html (http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Margolis_Eric/2006/04/16/1536088.html)

[KetchumMaine]

How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
- Benjamin Disraeli

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
- Benjamin Disraeli </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough. It is also, it would appear, easier to be critical than to try to understand others different from us.

[nacktman]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/poke.gif Touche, Still-Boreas! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[David77]

"In some sense, Texas is a preview of what the nation will become in the long run."
Texas is now over 50% non-white, as are three other states, with several others soon to follow

Even the official U.S. Census figures, which substantially underestimate the extent of the problem, are alarming - California, New Mexico, Texas and the District of Columbia are all officially over 50% non-white, while Arizona, Georgia, Maryland, Mississippi and New York are all officially 40% non-white. (Hawaii is largely Asian and native Hawaiian.) But the Census figures undercount tens of millions of illegal aliens; legal but uncooperative Third World immigrants; black and Hispanic drug addicts and other incompetents; and the denizens of violent black and Hispanic ghettoes where Census Bureau workers are understandably afraid to set foot.

The United States Census Bureau reported last week that Texas, America's second largest state in population, is now majority non-white. The huge influx of both legal and illegal aliens from Mexico and other Third World countries is what finally made white Anglos a minority in the Lone Star State.

California, America's largest state in population, has been majority non-white since 1998. Non-whites are 56% of California's population. The 44% of Californians who are white Anglo are part of a rapidly shrinking minority as millions of Third World immigrants continue to flood into the state.

"In some sense, Texas is a preview of what the nation will become in the long run," says Steven Murdock, the official state demographer for Texas - Murdock, a sociology professor in the Texas university system.

The Census Bureau reported last week that the entire United States is quickly moving in the same direction as California and Texas, which as mentioned above, are the nation's two largest states.

"In some sense, Texas is a preview of what the nation will become in the long run," said Steven Murdock, the official state demographer for Texas.

<hr>
Rightly or wrongly, here is the position of the Jewish Task Force on this subject;
http://www.jtf.org/america/america.texas.now.non.white.htm

[usmc1]

The JTF. The Jewish Task Force. I guess the red flag should be its billing itself as a site where "you will get the TRUTH left out of the mainstream media".

I have, for years, been perplexed by the contradicotry behavior of some Jews who engage in the most vile sort of ethnic hate-mongering. Who of all the people on the face of the earth have suffered more from ethnocentric fallacies and hatreds?

I remember, a while back, at a diplomatic cocktail party in Tel Aviv, having a very prominent Israeli diploment and world figure speak to with pride, of how "nordic" looking were so many third-generation Isrealis after several decades of inter-marriage with Sabras and Sephardics.

He also infomred me that Arabs are like monkeys, and while they might wear business suits on the world stage, "when they return to their desert tents they regrow their tails".

This Isreali man, was a Jew of European descent and had lost relatives to the Halocaust. How can one who has been a victim of such horror not see the parallels in his thinking to the thinking of the diseased minds which wrought and perpetrated taht horror?

Later, at another function, he bacame outraged and had to be restrained when I asked him what he thought was "the final solution" of the "Palestinian Problem". Somehow he couldn't make the connection from his line of thinking to that of the Nazis.

Some of the ethnic and race hatreds and mistrusts that have been voiced in this thread by some of my fellow Americans remind me of that fellow. They don't know how easily and quickly that hatred can be turned against them. They don't see how close to Nazism and Baltic ethnic cleansing their thinking takes them.

[Trailscout]

I have lived in El Paso Texas and the Hispanic majority is not a "problem" to worry about. Most of the people I encountered spoke English, many spoke only English and quite often there were Anglo-hispano love relationships and marriages. Like all other Americans they aspire to improve their position at work, to get more education and most wouldn't dream of making El Paso part of Mexico. They admire American freedom and want to be a part of our nation.

There is a problem with massive immigration that overwhelms the social safety net and delays assimilation. We need to take control back of the businesses that hire illegals and secure the borders.

But assuming that is taken care of, I would be delighted to have a Latina wife and neighbors and coworkers and not just because it is part of my heritage. America would be blessed to have them, but we must do it in a fashion that is orderly and in numbers that are manageable.

[David77]

Excellent post, Trailscout!

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Even the official U.S. Census figures, which substantially underestimate the extent of the problem, are alarming - California, New Mexico, Texas and the District of Columbia are all officially over 50% non-white, while Arizona, Georgia, Maryland, Mississippi and New York are all officially 40% non-white. (Hawaii is largely Asian and native Hawaiian.) But the Census figures undercount tens of millions of illegal aliens; legal but uncooperative Third World immigrants; black and Hispanic drug addicts and other incompetents; and the denizens of violent black and Hispanic ghettoes where Census Bureau workers are understandably afraid to set foot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes the fact that America is becoming "less white" a problem?

I heard a radio interview once about the "Browning of America". The author of the book of that name saw it as a good thing. I'd generally have to agree.

We really have to start building bridges rather than walls. If there is such an "illegals" problem, what are the factors causing or contributing to this? We HAVE to look beyond legal vs illegal.

[Trailscout]

I recommend the movie Fools Rush In, starring Salma Hayak and Matthew Perry.

It shows in a humorous light some of the cultural adjustments we all have to make in order to live together. But in the end, these are two people who are meant for each other and love wins out in the end. (Hope that doesn't give away too much of the story).

And if we could repeat this story 20 million times over...

[usmc1]

About nine years ago, Newsweek magazine had a cover story about the changing face of America and morphed black, hispanic, white, asian and pacific rim features to show what future Americans will look like. Handsome men and beautiful women with cafe a'lait skin.

I, have a grandson who is half Indian/Portuguese and half American (English, Scot, Irish, German, Cherokee, Iroquois and God only knows what else) and 100% hybrid vigor.

As a 7th grader he just took a pre-SAT and scored ahead of 42 % of college bound seniors in language skills and ahead of 35% of college bound seniors in math skills, and hit the highest level obtrainable on the essay. Hybrid vigor!

We'll be just fine, and despite the sparks, anger and friction, we'll all find a way to assimilate, and by second and third generations everyone will be intermarrying and cross-pollinating producing bright, beautiful little kids.

The problems we have with Mexican migrant labor derives more from our failure to provide adequately for health care and education and infrastructure spending. Fewer generals, a few less bombs, a few less tax breaks for the wealthy and the problems go away if we realign out priorities.

The other aspect is that we simply need to get honest and admit we need a viable guest worker program, secure our borders and manage the flow instead of villifying some poor Mexicans trying to get a taste.

[Trailscout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
About nine years ago, Newsweek magazine had a cover story about the changing face of America and morphed black, hispanic, white, asian and pacific rim features to show what future Americans will look like. Handsome men and beautiful women with cafe a'lait skin...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Banjo_Boy_Biography.jpg

Some say our north Georgia gene pool could use a little refreshing. That's not for me to say, but somehow I think Salma would be a welcome improvement here, at least she would in my family.

[jon71]

Any guy would welcome Selma Hayek into anything, I know I would.

[Trailscout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Any guy would welcome Selma Hayek into anything, I know I would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/SalmaHayakPicture.jpg

Jon, I see what you mean. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
- Benjamin Disraeli </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough. It is also, it would appear, easier to be critical than to try to understand others different from us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I personally have no problem with anyone from any race. I respect every race equally. My concern is the almost constant flow of people through our borders who do not follow the proper procedure. Therefore, it is the behavior, not the person which causes my concern.