A question regarding intersexed naturists

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, have any of you seen a person at a naturist venue who, although naked, couldn't easily be identified as either male or female - e.g. having characteristics of both sexes (e.g a clear female body shape but with male genitalia)?

I couldn't imagine any hermaphrodite or biologically intersexed person visiting a naturist resort but I could be wrong.

This condition is far more common than most people with unambiguous gender realise.

Stu

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, have any of you seen a person at a naturist venue who, although naked, couldn't easily be identified as either male or female - e.g. having characteristics of both sexes (e.g a clear female body shape but with male genitalia)?

I couldn't imagine any hermaphrodite or biologically intersexed person visiting a naturist resort but I could be wrong.

This condition is far more common than most people with unambiguous gender realise.

Stu

[wannabenaked2001]

I have never noticed anything like this, but I have never looked for it either.

By the way, is this your situation? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rik]

Hi Stu,

As far as I can recall this issue has never been raised on this discussion board and nor have I ever seen it discussed on any naturist forum.

To answer your question I have never, as far as I know, seen an intersexed person at a naturist venue but I am curious about your view that you "couldn't imagine any hermaphrodite or biologically intersexed person visiting a naturist resort".

I may be wrong here but I presume you feel that such people would be highly body conscious. They wouldn't want to be stared at etc. Perhaps they wouldn't want to have to explain their condition. On one level I can understand that as we are all taught body shame from an early age but it is particularly prevalent in those whose bodies are somewhat out of alignement with our conceptions of what the body 'should' look like. How often do we hear things like "I'd be a nudist if I was 50 pounds lighter" or we get questions on this board about the acceptance of scars, disabilites and so on.

What we as nudists discover is that even the most imperfect of us learn to live with our bodies as they are. This is partly I think because of the notion that naturists don't judge other people's bodies. I've never bought this completely but naturists certainly get used to seeing all manner of bodies so I guess that some of the "acceptance" is really more to do with simply being exposed to other people's lack of perfection rather than some innate goodness in naturists. No, what is really important is that the shedding of clothes is a personal statement to the world that "this is me" - "like it or not, this is me". There is nothing left with which to create an image, no masks to hide behind and I often think this is the feeling of 'freedom' which so many naturists describe.

I have first hand experience of this. As a youngster I had a series of hernia operations and also one for hydrocelle. As a result I have grown up with scarring and a slight genital abnormality. As a kid and in my younger adult life I found this quite difficult to live with but over the last 4 or 5 years, during which I have had significantly more nudist experiences (partcularly camping and saunas), I have developed an inner peace and an almost (but not quite) total acceptance of my body.

Rik

[nudist_in_Tn]

Now that you mention it I did see a person walking on the beach that I assumed was a man until he got close enough that I could see a pair of breasts, not fat guy boobs mind you but a nice looking pair of femenine breasts on a person who otherwise looked like a man this person was wearing a pair of mens swim trunks and was topless, I never gave it much thought until I read this post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
It might surprise you to know that I am reasonably comfortable with mine, I just don't like showing it off or comparing it with others... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No Stu, I'm not surprised. What you say is exactly what I would have expected you to say but the rest of that sentence belies your lack of self confidence.

Naturism is most definitely nothing to do with showing off bodies nor comparing with others but it is about feeling confident enough in yourself to not be concerned about what others may think. I'm sure that cultural upbringing makes it nigh on impossible for people to understand this without trying naturism for themselves.

Anyway Stu, you haven't really explained the thinking behind your question. Could it just be that you're thinking of giving it a go yourself and are testing the water?

No, I didn't think so. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[wannabenaked2001]

Stu,

I need to apologize for my earlier remark. I was being a smart a**.

I am sorry! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Rik, I am a member of a support group for intersexed people and someone in that group jokingly mentioned going to a naturist resort in Turkey. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jokingly? Or was that your interpretation?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for me testing the water...hmmm...maybe one day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I knew it. You're starting to weaken. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[wannabenaked2001]

Stu,

An honest question now. I belive you have been pretty negative toward social nudity. Do you think your condition may be the source of this?

[EricNY]

Stu:
I think it is wonderful that with all our differences, that this group has made you feel comfortable enough to open up and share something so personal. I think that says alot for the members of this forum, as well as nuturists.

I hope you continue to post here, you are a excellent contributer. I hope you get all you want out of life. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ercNY:
I hope you continue to post here, you are a excellent contributer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, don't give him too much encouragement! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[turkishnudes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am a member of a support group for intersexed people and someone in that group jokingly mentioned going to a naturist resort in Turkey. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are no official naturist resorts in Turkey - it is against the Muslim religion. You may find a part of a beach reserved for naked tourists only - no Turks.

I would not recommend Turkey as being the ideal place to step into the water. At the best of times, even clothed, the Turkish have a tendancy to stare, and they are most open with their comments.
Just last night a young boy openly asked me to sleep with him, in the middle of a very busy street, just like that whilst I was waiting for my friend to pay the taxi! I was complimented rather than shocked or emabarrassed, but for those who are not used to such situations, I would steer clear.

Where I live in Istanbul there is a very big problem with both transexuals and transvestites. Although by nature or tradition many men are bisexual, in general they do not look favourably upon feminine men.

I would try a country with a more open attitude ( Switzerland, Holland, Germany, Denmark), or maybe your intersexed group could hold a "nude" evening?

[AlaskaRoy]

Wow, you raise an interesting point, Stu!
My understanding is that about 1 out of 1000 live births involve children with ambiguous genitalia. In the U.S., such individuals have (for the past 100+ years) been surgically altered to make them less ambiguous, usually by deciding that the baby is "female". Although we tend to think of a person's sex as being an either/or thing, in actuality there are many ways in which sex can be ambiguous.
As far as nudist/naturist acceptance, I'd like to hope that naturists would be more open-minded and tolerant than the average person. Did I understand correctly that you've not yet gone to a public nudist venue? Maybe going to a club/beach/event with someone you know, for the moral support, would be a good way to start.
Best of luck to you.
Roy

At the nudist club where I was once a member, I saw what I thought was a girl in her early teens. At first I saw the breasts of what I thought was a boyish looking girl. Then I saw the penis and realized that this was a teenaged boy with rather large breasts rather than a young teen girl with normal sized ones. He was slender so it wasn't because of his weight. He didn't appear self-conscious about it. I spoke with him and his dad while we were in the pool and found out he was 13. I though he was 15 or 16. He was large for his age in more ways than one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik:
...This is partly I think because of the notion that naturists don't judge other people's bodies. I've never bought this completely but naturists certainly get used to seeing all manner of bodies so I guess that some of the "acceptance" is really more to do with simply being exposed to other people's lack of perfection rather than some innate goodness in naturists... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm, interesting observation. Makes me think about my own attitude. I'd admit to comparing others' bodies, but I'd like to think I don't judge them.

Is there a difference between comparing and judging, or am I just being naive? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Those of us who admit to admiring bodies that we find pleasing use this comparison, but without being judgmental. I think! Anybody else?

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik:
...Naturism is most definitely nothing to do with showing off bodies nor comparing with others but it is about feeling confident enough in yourself to not be concerned about what others may think. I'm sure that cultural upbringing makes it nigh on impossible for people to understand this without trying naturism for themselves...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've often thought of it this way... naturists have somehow reached a higher plateau of emotional development than those who still harbor fear of nakedness.

But I can never find the right words to explain it to a non-naturist. And naturists already know! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You're right, Rik, the inner peace of naturism can't be taught, it can only be experienced.

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
...As a child and in my early teens I was constantly taken for a girl. No matter how short I kept my hair or how boyish the clothes I wore people would still call me "young lady" or "Miss". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SO!!! That picture really IS you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[jk jk jk]

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
Is there a difference between comparing and judging, or am I just being naive? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think it depends what you mean by 'comparing'. If you mean that you recognize that people are different then that's something very positive. If you mean that you consider the differences and then decide if one is better or worse (by whatever criteria you choose) then that is judgement.

Humans will always form judgements but we have to remember that many of the judgements we form about the human body are based on our cultural upbringing which is the very thing naturists, by their very existence, challenge. So although I don't believe that all, or even most, naturists have necessarily thrown off the cultural indoctrination which causes them to judge they are at least better able to understand that judging other people by their physical appearance is irrational.

Does that make any sense?

Rik

[missouriboy]

Yes, Rick, that makes sense and I agree with it. I probably used "comparing" in the wrong context, and maybe I really meant "selecting."

I agree that judging people by their natural physical appearance is completely irrational. Now, chosen appearance (piercings, tattoos, etc.) is something else again.

[David77]

Hi Stu,
I am so happy to hear that you attend an intersex support group. I am sure it can help you with your PTS. PTS stands for "post traumatic syndrome". Although PTS is generally thought of as suffered by persons who have experienced much trauma in miliary service, I understand that it occurs in various degree and lenghs of time, with other traumas. From your accounts of gender medical problems and ensuing societal reactions and abuse, this understandably has unfortunately caused you to have PTS, but it seems that you have, because of the many strengths in your inner-being and your family, you have married and become a very successful professional man, "blessed" with a fine mind. I honor and salute your accomplishments. It seems, to me at least,(and I hope I am right) that you are gradually coming to greater terms with body acceptance of your own and others, as you indicate that you congratulate yourself on your sauma experience as not being as uncomfortable as you had expected.

If I remember your question correctly, you asked whether we had seen intersex persons at nudist resorts. I may be ignorent on this matter, but I suppose I could not tell who was intersex, as I think most intersex persons are surgically modified at a young age. You yourself indicated, months ago, that you had surgery and thus look within the normal range.
As for physique differences between male and female, there is too broad a range of both male and female body characteristics at nudist resorts to know who is intersex. All body shapes we see at resorts have some "inperfection" that does not meet the norm, when it come to male or female characteristics or any other charactistics. The difference makes people interesting.

The differences in men's and women's physiques are too many for any one person to posses many of the ideal gender characteristics.

For example, Let's consider the many characteristics of the male physiques, (as compared to the female) and we will see that there are too many for one person to generally posses them all.
Firstly, genital difference
longer proportioned legs
legs spaced not as far apart
less fatty tissue in face
more angular face
heavier eyebrows
upper space between eyes and eyebrows is narrower
shorter eyelashes
less of a "Cupids bow" shaped lips
heavier facial features
taller
muscles more visible since less fatty tissue and probably more muscle
courser hands and feet
courser hair
wider shoulders
wider waist
hips narrower
more visible body hair
flatter breasts
no large aureoles
smaller nipples
tighter looking buttocks
etc.

This is what we use as mere guideline in our figure drawing class, but hardly anyone has most all of these characteristics, and viewing people at a naturist resort will shout this message loud and clear. It is a fact! For example, some men have narrow shoulders, shorter legs, bulbous buttox, delicate hands, etc. (We won't even foolishly mention what would be considerd an "aesthetic" shape approximating greek sculptures).

Accepting and respecting ourselves and other "imperfect body shapes" is a virtue. None of these characteristics should define the worth of a person nor determine respect.

Possibly (but I certainly don't know) you may have had a rounder face (like many men do) because of fatty subcutanious tissue that caused persons to mistakenly call you "young lady", but now with age, you may have lost much of chubby tissue in the face. You may possibly also get testosterone suppliment pills, which tends to make a person's muscles more solid, (but can reduce the testicle size and function). Of course, testosterone contributed to your mentioned male pattern baldness and beard which you "sport". You have children and had an adequate sperm quality and sperm count it would seem, thank goodness.

If I had a teen-age son who was bothered by his gynecomatia (larger breasts) I would be glad to have him have the excess tissue surgically removed. A number of men have rather large breasts and simply seem to ignore it. My father and I had a little larger breasts than the average, and especially whenever we gained weight, so I simply did not like to wear tight fitting knit shirts, but I completely forgot about it when I went swimming. I suppose my doing the back stroke now regularly when swimming may turn some of the fat into muscle.

Please consider this as all very unauthorative, as I am certainly no kind of expert. I just hope that I have not offended anyone.

[EricNY]

Personally, I have noticed big differences between my nudist freinds and my non-nudist freinds.

For example, my freinds that are NOT nudists tend to be more crude when it comes to folks that are different, than they are. Things like picking on people's weakness or laughing behind their back, because they are "not cool".

My nudist freinds do not seem to have these same tendancies, they seem more accepting. They look past the little things that make us unique, instead of making a joke out of them. To the nudist it really does not matter.

I beleive someone with this condition would be treated better in a nudist environment than in a clothed. This is probably due to the fact that nudists tend to look inside a person,rather than looking at what doesn't matter( the outside)

[missouriboy]

Exactly so. Your experience reflects my own observation from the other day: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...naturists have somehow reached a higher plateau of emotional development than those who still harbor fear of nakedness.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the additional testimony, pal. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[sunaddicted]

This winter at Haulover Beach in Miami, we saw two beautiful girls who on closer look had penises. I don't know if they are transexual, or men who have taken hormones or what.

We also have seen a women who had a penis, who told everyone that she was going to have an operation to have it removed. Another time we saw a similar person, only with a vagina, which was considerably higher than normal and a friend said that this was done during an sex change operation.

[Qwertie]

Good question, stu. I just found this forum earlier tonight and you "struck" me. The first post I saw of yours seemed intolerant. Somebody rebuked you, and I agreed. I went to another thread and there you were again, spewing blasphemy!

? The Fun of Nude Recreation ? How do you get people to understand ?

But then you started saying things that actually seemed constructive and topical. Yet still most seemed to hate you like the plague, not acknowledging anything you had to say except as being completely unreasonable.

I kept wondering why you continued to post even though most people seemed to ignore all your points and just want you to leave. And especially, if you didn't like nudism, why you would keep posting and reading a nudist message board!

And then, after you stopped posting in the thread for awhile, I wondered why people kept going on and on about you.

Well, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here... just giving my first impressions...

Anyway, I think the topic you've brought up is very important. To me, body acceptance is at the core of naturism, not just acceptance of your own body but everyone else's as well.

I believe naturists generally accept 'normal' bodies--ordinary males and females, both fat and thin and everywhere in between (for both large and small people are common), possibly with small or medium scars or other small defects (for these are common also).

But what about "out of the ordinary" bodies? People with serious deformities, unusual genitals (or no genitals at all!) or, like you say, physical attributes that make one appear as the opposite sex? After all, in the thread about erections, many people expressed what I felt was an unreasonable level of intolerance toward accidental erections.

Although this matter is somewhat different, the erection issue to me at least prooves that many nudists don't fully believe in body acceptance. They accept what they see often--ordinary people with ordinary genitals and other ordinary features--but when it comes to things out of the ordinary, some will be accepting, and others will not.

Of course, nudists are generally a polite and considerate bunch. So I wouldn't expect them to SAY anything untoward about an unusual individual. But how can we know that some people won't THINK less of you for being different?

Nevertheless, there's plenty of intolerance to go around in clothed society, in any case more than in nudist society, or so it seems to me. If a few people think less of you for having an unusual condition, those people will be in the minority. And you shouldn't care what they think anyway. It's not like they're going to rush over and tease you.

[gamblefish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
As far as being blasphemous is concerned, being a non-believer the term is pretty meaningless to me. If there was/is an Almighty, He made us with inquiring brains, capable of questioning all manner of things. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think he meant "nudist blasphemy", not "religious blasphemy"...

[tarsus]

stu
i still do not know what to think about you but i am fairly new here also.
i do want to throw in something on this, yes there are only two basic types, of those two[let me go back to college days here and memory is fading]we are born xx[male] or yy[female],however some are born xxy or yyx. but one thing holds true
we are human, imperfect; some good, some bad of course. most of us somewhere in between.and when reduced down to the smallest sum there is just the one basic type. do i make any sense?
any one may leave me a private message, or e-mail
me,as i have to go for now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tarsus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Tarsus,

"yes there are only two basic types, of those two[let me go back to college days here and memory is fading]we are born xx[male] or yy[female],however some are born xxy or yyx. but one thing holds true"

You are talking about the last pair of chromasomes. In females they are XX and in males they are XY, and the Y chromasome is inherited from the father, although you can get anomolies. The XXY is called Kleinfelter's Syndrome. A very rare variation on this is XXXY, males who are usually either brought up as girls or change sex in early adulthood. First of all let me tell you that I don't know my own genetic make-up - and it's not that important for me to find out. I assume that I'm XY because I am not impotent or sterile. It is part of our culture, and many other human cultures, to try to force every member into one of two clear and distinct categories. I'm not convinced that this is an accurate perception of the way nature works.

"we are human, imperfect; some good, some bad of course. most of us somewhere in between"

We are ALL good at times and bad at other times - our identities are not fixed but are dynamic. Our identities in terms of physical characteristics, mental attributes, attitudes and beliefs are shaped and continually reshaped by life's experiences.

"and when reduced down to the smallest sum there is just the one basic type. do i make any sense?"

We are like the leaves on the forest floor in autumn - are all slightly different to each other but with vastly more in common than we have differences.

I don't mean to get all philosophical but this is just my take on life.

Stu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i knew i did not have just right, i can see you are well educated, better then me.
my memory is not all it could be,i suffered brain
damage as a child. and damage is related to memory.i will post that story someday.

[Gary Naturist]

Stu said:

"... I know there are those here who despise me and just want me to go away. Some, as you rightly say, ignore me."

Stu: Your statement above has been bothering me, so I'd like to set the record straight. I was one who suggested that you "go away". My sole reason for doing so was the number and length of your earlier posts, which I thought were very negative and closed-minded.

I certainly don't despise you and I doubt that any others do either.

More recently, it has become apparent that you are struggling with issues relating to sexuality and nudity that arose at a very early age.

You have shared your thoughts and concerns with us and have, I hope, gotten some useful feedback from members here. In the process, we have learned something new about sexuality and our bodies.

I sense that, as a result of all of the dialogue, you are making progress with regard to your discomfort with nudity. That's a good thing.

In this regard, you are no different from everyone else who is exposed to nudism, either physically or verbally as in these forums. The more exposure, the greater the comfort.

I'm waiting for the moment when you tell us that you have gone nude in the sauna at your health club. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I salute you for your courage in bringing forward your issues, and for your use of these forums as one means to help resolve them.

Gary

[Karoline]

When I was a child in finland one of my older sisters had a boy friend who had a nephew about 5 years old and but they thought he should have been a girl. His name was Rikko. I went to their home and they had a sauna and everyone went naked. This is normal in finland. Rikko was shy to be seen naked and kept a towel around himself. He talked like a girl and played with girl things and said he wants to be a girl. He has surgery and his name was changed to Marketta. After that she was not shy any more in the sauna. Marketta was a bridesmaid at my sisters wedding in 1985 but now my sister is divorced again so I dont see her now.

I read in a magazine called Mira about a man who was born with intersex and he had male hormone injections all his life until he reached his late 40s. One day after an injection he had a fit and was very sick for weeks in the hospital. Doctors said his body could not take the injections any more and he would have to have womens hormone instead to stay well. He had some womens reproductive tissues in his body and was going through something like menopause. He grew breasts and began to look like a woman and his girlfriend left him and he tried to kill himself. It was very sad for him.