Veterans will understand ...

[nacktman]

Especially combat veterans will grasp the meaning of the following.

[tinner666]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif That's a good one Nach!! I sometimes think I'm still there. Back when I was dead, there was no light to see anywhere. When I was rescusitated, I was asked about it. When I said it was dark, somebody pointed out that I went the wrong way. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[Buzzer]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/bonk.gif Deffinately! I sought adventure and was terrorized when I experienced it!
I did my job, though!

[Captain Curmudgeon]

Well, when I joined the Navy in 1963 I was seeking relief from the boredom of school and I found it.

And, at the end of my assignment on a Charleston-based destroyer, when I turned down assignments that were taking me back to schools, either to teach or to learn, I was following the same path.

So I wound up with Third Marines in DaNang.

[texasjoe]

That is oh-so-true! Fires at sea are NO fun.

[Rabid_Clam]

At some point in time we all shal die, our bodies will rot returning the elements that comprise our cells back to the earth from whence it came. So be it. Yet our spirit will continue on as our soul, our spirit, our being walks yet another life beyond this one. That life is eternal and is based on what we learn here. We are meek, we are ignorant. We are human. We are but one small step above the animal where we can beleive in God Almighty, an animal cannot conceive of that. And that is all that saves us from death being final.

[Buzzer]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif I was told, and tend to agree from experience, that there are no athiests in foxholes.

[bulldawg]

I put two tours in hell 68-70.

[sliver]

My grandmother once told me that all men/women that have served in the military go to heaven, because they've already done their time in hell. Nuff said.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzer:
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif I was told, and tend to agree from experience, that there are no athiests in foxholes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a myth that satisfies the theists.

[NudeAl]

We all have our own beliefs I know what mine are and I won't bore you with them.

This may not fit precisely on this topic but I have to vent.

I just had one of the most horrible experiences of my life which I hope I wonn't have to repeat. I had to go and tell a young wife that her husband and father of her children had been killed in Iraq. Unless you have done this or have received the news you have no idea how gut wrenching and terrible it is. They are going through some tough times and I feel connected even though I never met the family before or the deceased. It's really too much for me to relate here it's just that I know in times like this often religion or faith whatever you want to call it is the only comfort the family can find.

[nudeM]

A persons faith heals all wounds. Veterans learn this through the 'buddy' system, especially during war time. You don't necesarily have to be religious either to have faith.

Veteran, during wartime, become more like 'family' rather than friends or buddies. You grow to be more respectful and trustworthy of each others actions. When you lose a fellow soldier, comrade, etc., you lose a family member. The loss stays with you for life. Sure, the loss fades, but the memory is implanted.

Not being a Veteran during wartime, I have experienced a personal life-threatening situation that I can relate to, that can be translated over to the battlefield, as far as being 'family' goes. I know the close-knit group of guys a company gets when being assigned together.

So, in short, I do agree with the heading of this topic, in that "Veterans will understand..." http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif

[usuallylurk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeAl:
We all have our own beliefs I know what mine are and I won't bore you with them.

This may not fit precisely on this topic but I have to vent.

I just had one of the most horrible experiences of my life which I hope I wonn't have to repeat. I had to go and tell a young wife that her husband and father of her children had been killed in Iraq. Unless you have done this or have received the news you have no idea how gut wrenching and terrible it is. They are going through some tough times and I feel connected even though I never met the family before or the deceased. It's really too much for me to relate here it's just that I know in times like this often religion or faith whatever you want to call it is the only comfort the family can find. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My daughter did a year tour in Iraq as a signal officer. Then when she returned, her boyfriend went over, he is the captain of a helicopter medivac crew.

My daughter was the FRG (family readiness group) officer for her beau's group. Had there been bad news, she would have been the one to deliver it.

Thankfully - she never had to. The only major duty she had to take was to make a string of "don't worry" calls -- a combat Blackhawk helicopter had been shot down, and Fox News ("balanced", yeah, right) put a picture of a medivac chopper on and said "one of these crashed".

All in the group were ordered by my daughter - the little Captain herself -- call or e-mail home IMMEDIATELY.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David77:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzer:
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif I was told, and tend to agree from experience, that there are no athiests in foxholes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a myth that satisfies the theists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup!

I suspect that those who comment that "it is a myth that there are no athiests in fox holes" have never themselves been in combat during a fire fight. As a vet, I have experiances shots flying over or landing very near me. Under those sustained cercumstances you come to quickly understand that you are only inches away from death. Yes, you have great fear because you have seen others go home in body bags and you don't want to be one of them. Yet, you are there and you have a job to do. So, from where do you draw up the strength to not cower at the bottom of your fox hole and fight? Certainly much comes from those around you who are also engaging the enemy. Your combat training works for you big time. But, still there is that call for self preservation eating at you. That is where faith, I believe, comes into play. Faith that some how, some way things are going to be Okay, even if the worse should happen. It gives inner strength and a peace even though you are scared s*%tless to do what needs to be done. The faith is never in your self but in the expectation that there is a greater strength or force working in you and you can do what needs to be done. The athiest may not call it God but it most certaily is His handy work. Indeed, any combat experianced vet would indeed understand. Sawdust, Viet Nam Vet

[hm0504]

Sorry, but if an atheist vet who has experienced combat does not call "it" God, he/she is still an atheist no matter what level of God's handiwork he/she has experienced.

I lived next door for much of my teen years next to a combat-proven U.S. Marine who was very much an avowed atheist. I consider him in many ways to be a very godly man, but I'm not going to say he isn't an atheist.

[nacktman]

Most if not all combat veterans are 'atheists' having seen and lived in and through what no god could condone.

Having a spiritual revelation is quite common but having a religious revelation is virtually nil ... and there is an enormous difference between the two.

Viet Nam and a "few other places and times I'm not at liberty to say" Vet.

[Swimguy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Most if not all combat veterans are 'atheists' having seen and lived in and through what no god could condone.

Having a spiritual revelation is quite common but having a religious revelation is virtually nil ... and there is an enormous difference between the two.

Viet Nam and a "few other places and times I'm not at liberty to say" Vet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmm... I know a number of combat veterans who are spiritual and religious. I had a great conversation with a coworker while on a business trip about his combat experiences in Vietnam. I gained so much respect for him and others who serve in the military.

[RalphVa]

Nachtman, I think your statement is totally false. Lots of veterans believe in God and attend and participate in church activities, ESPECIALLY marines. Lots of marines in our congregation in Baton Rouge. Lots of military in our congregation here in Charlottesville.

I, too, am a combat veteran and am an active church member.

Read the old Testament. There was lots of blood and gore and mayhem back then, too. It didn't keep them from being following God. David is a perfect example. He killed lots of people in his time but was very obedient to God (except for the Bathsheba thing).

[Baron Lake]

I can assure you RalphVa that Nachtman is not "totally false" and Buzzer's reference to that nonsensical, yet often repeated phrase about no atheists in foxholes is just that...nonsense.
b.l.
(not currently in a foxhole but still an atheist)

[David77]

The (Episcopalian) Bishop's, John Shelby Sprong's unique view on Atheism;

This is from the Bishop Spong newsletter: free for distribution.

_________________

John from Tucson, Arizona, writes: "First let me tell you I am an
atheist. Prior to this I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition and
was a member in good standing for approximately the first thirty years
of my life at which time I left. The journey I am on has led me in many
directions and I have been comfortable lately with where I find myself.
That is until I read your recent column. What brings this uncomfortable
feeling is your sentence that reads, "As optimism has died, human beings
increasingly turned either to fundamentalist religion or to secular
materialism in the constant search for meaning." Because I value your
understanding of the human condition, I took the latter part of the
above sentence as an indictment. I know that my search for meaning has
often turned to secular materialism. I must tell you this disturbs me.
I'm not sure where to go with this. I cannot return to religion, as it
holds nothing for me. Yet I do not want to continue to define myself by
what I buy and own. Any insights?"

Dear John,

I do not regard the claim that one is an atheist as anything different
from a religious claim. An atheist seems to me to be saying, "The God I
meet in organized religion is simply not big enough to be God in the
world I now inhabit. Since no one offers a different understanding of
God, I will reject the only God who has been presented to me." I believe
it is the Church's responsibility to hear that criticism and not to
reject it as faithless but faithful.

No one knows who God is or what God is. All any of us know is how we
believe we have experienced God. Even then we must face the possibility
that our experience is delusional. When the Church says, "This is God
and we have this God defined in our creeds and spelled out in our
doctrines and dogmas," what you really have is an absolute expression of
idolatry. Some Christians believe the Bible has defined God. Other
Christians believe the sacred teaching of their church has defined God.
Both have inevitably been forced to distort the reality and the mystery
of God to come to those conclusions.

As I understand human life, the nature of self-consciousness is to
search for meaning and to accept radical insecurity as that part of life
that makes us searching creatures. To search is to admit a sense of
incompleteness. Religion is one prong of that search but that human
sense of insecurity plagues us until we are driven to assert that in our
particular religious pathway certainty has been achieved. The witness of
history is that when religion claims certainty it turns demonic. That is
when you get persecution, excommunication, burning heretics at the
stake, religious wars and finally religious acts of terrorism. When
religion dies, people turn to material comfort hiding from life's
meaninglessness in extensive possessions. I have never met a person,
however, who feels that he or she finally has enough things not to seek
more.

A third possibility that I commend to you is to see the search for
meaning as a journey without end, a walk into the mystery of God. On
that walk there are no road maps or directional signs. It is a walk that
needs to be taken in the company of fellow seekers. On that journey
questions are shared and all answers are challenged. That I believe is
what the future of the Church will look like.

For you and those like you, I hope you will find this kind of community
somewhere and in it learn that the gift you have to offer the church is
the criticism that arises from your atheist perspective. The church
should welcome that gift for its own sake and should honor it as a
worthy gift that the church needs to receive.

I wish you well on your journey.

-- John Shelby Spong

[hm0504]

Thanks for posting that, David77.

[David77]

Your welcome, hm0504, i.e. Albinus.

We of the Unitarian Universalist congregations also very much appreciate many of Sprong's viewpoints, as our UU congregations contain a number of non-theistic, spiritually inspired, Naturalistic Humanists, as I.

[nacktman]

Well, at least most DO recognize the difference, pity some do not.

[Baron Lake]

So old Sprong thinks atheism is just another way of believing in god huh? The poor fellow is delusional about more than one thing in his intellectually insecure life.
Comes from basing one's beliefs upon myth and a view of the universe unsupported by falsifiable evidence.

b.l.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Comes from basing one's beliefs upon myth and a view of the universe unsupported by falsifiable evidence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is far from correct when you suggest that Sprong is baseing his beliefs on myth.
To the contrary, he hopes to influence the religious communities to discard myth - myths of the virgin birth, ressurection, miracles, hell, trinity, etc. If you read his book entitled "Christianity Must Change or Die", you would see this to be so.

The word "God" can be given many meanings; such as considering that whatever man sees as "the highest good" is his God. In using this definition, Communism could be considered as one's "God", the Ultimate Reality.
God does not have to mean a supreme being and personality. The New Testament states God is Love. Some consider (including the belief of the Christian Science religion) that there is no higher value than love, and that God is Devine Love, deserving reverence.

In one Unitarian Church they sing, to the tune that most churches use as the Doxology, the following;

Praise God the love we all may share
Praise God the beauty everywhere
Praise God the hope that is to be
Praise God the truth that makes us free.

This makes God the values of;
love
beauty
hope
truth

I do not think in anthropomorphic terms for God, nor in terms of values in an attempt to describe God, as I am more in accord with the Asian religions such as Buddhism, Confusianism, Tao, etc. which do not see the need for a theistic concept in religion/spirituality.

See Sprong's article on non-theistic worship at;

http://www.aislingmagazine.com/AislingMagazine/articles...27/FutureChurch.html (http://www.aislingmagazine.com/AislingMagazine/articles/TAM27/FutureChurch.html)

[Baron Lake]

David, if you care to advance the idea that "god" is anything anyone chooses to "believe" in and therefore possesses some independent, transcendent quality worthy of reverence be my guest. One can appreciate "things" such as love and beauty without giving them supernatural status. Do you really think of such ideas as entities existing independently of value and context?
The advancements in brain science continue to shrink the universe of superstition, self-delusion and wishful thinking.

I hope the weather is as fine where you are as it is here. Off now to do a bit of naked rambling.

b.l.

[usmc1]

Not to accept the notion of that which we call God is to deny the veracity of one's own existance.

If I exist, as surely I think I do, then I came from somewhere, on back to that which Catholic theologians call the uncaused cause.

And since order presupposes intellect at work, for me, the uncaused cause has as part of its nature intellect, since the human perceived universe is orderly and governed by observable and predictiable "laws".

Now the sceptic can always argue that, "no you do not exist, and those things you regard as "laws" and order are merely the things you have been taught to believe".

However, I think the sceptic loses this debate because when asserting that I think or believe he is confirming my existance. I think therefore I am--or at least that's what the Cartesians would assert. I think, therefore I am.

The problem for me is when individuals and groups start ascribing all sorts of characteristics to that which we call God and wrapping that in myth, mystery, dogma, ritual and faith, and the scribblings of some philosophers, rabbis and others from a very brief span of human experience.

Personally, I believe that which we call God can be found if sought and can enrich our lives and give us the strength to endure. Sometimes, as though through a glass darkly, I have experienced and felt that which is other than us. A glimmering, so faint and elusive, but there, none the less. And believe me, I aint no church going, bible thumping, self-flagellating holy boy. Not even a little bit.

I guess Baron would assert that what I'm experiencing are the result of brain chemicals and endorphins creating a "sense" of that other. And maybe so, but who can deny the possibility that what brain science describes as the cause of those feelings (brain chemicals and reactions) is indeed the mechanism by which that which we call God triggers that feeling of connectedness and well-being. What caused those brain chemicals, etc. to act on us in that way?

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baron Lake:
David, if you care to advance the idea that "god" is anything anyone chooses to "believe" in
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I do not wish to advance anyone to believe anything, as I am not of the missionery kind, and do not believe in proselytizing. Since I am non-theistic, why would I want to spend some time to eagerly advance some idea about the nature of God?
As I have said, I am a Naturalistic Humanist, which, to me, means that all is of the natural universe, and value the human as paramount, as I personally see no sign of a higher being "in the scheme of things". The post immediately above by usmc1 does, and that is just fine with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and therefore possesses some independent, transcendent quality worthy of reverence ...
One can appreciate "things" such as love and beauty without giving them supernatural status. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly! I don't give these qualities a status that is seperate from human's emotions and reasoning, intelligence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Do you really think of such ideas as entities existing independently of value and context? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The advancements in brain science continue to shrink the universe of superstition, self-delusion and wishful thinking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you are talking about science versus superstition. I like that.

[alfredr]

Not a veteran, so you all can ignore me without offending me.

I think everyone has their own private theology which usually will not coincide completely with the beliefs of the church they attend or grew up with or belong to. For some, it consists more of questions or doubts than beliefs. For some, it may be mostly denial of God's existence.

I think religion and spirituality and theology are not the same things and you can define them in ways that overlap to some extent.

(I need to keep this short. I have to get to work.)

Superstition and myth and faith may depend on your point of view also.

Science, in the sense of knowledge, may vary with the strength of your spiritual experience(s).

Good day and good luck.

[Baron Lake]

Bit of a streach don't cha think usmc when you go from "I think therefore I am" to "I think god exists therefore She does"?

I, like you, usmc find comfort and enrichment in my life by the non-material aspects of my tiny corner of the universe. Indeed, Should I ever need to chose between the pleasures of discourse with you and the kick-*** fun of riding my new motorcycle I would definitely choose...ummm ...ummm....well I'll get back to ya on that later.
b.l.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baron Lake:
Bit of a streach don't cha think usmc when you go from "I think therefore I am" to "I think god exists therefore She does"?

I, like you, usmc find comfort and enrichment in my life by the non-material aspects of my tiny corner of the universe. Indeed, Should I ever need to chose between the pleasures of discourse with you and the kick-*** fun of riding my new motorcycle I would definitely choose...ummm ...ummm....well I'll get back to ya on that later.
b.l. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really a stretch. I think therefore I am. Since I am, I came from somewhere and on back to the uncaused cause. The quandry of the human condition is determining the nature, characteristics, relevance, and meaning to our human existance of that uncaused cause.

We can't ever really know those things with certainty, unless string theory pans out, as some think it might, to leading us to the very hand of creation. But, that I think is the basis of existentialism. Or as Thomas Wolfe said so eloquently in Look Homeward Angel, "O Lost, O Lost!"

Motor cycle, I had to pledge Mrs USMC to stay the hell off motorcycles after my last lay down.

Slamming an old beat to hell Yanaha 350 around the property like a dirt bike and hit too low a gear, locked up the back end and damn near tore my leg off at the knee. Oher stuff too, but, got back on road it home and put in the stable and went in to take a shower. But, that night when she saw my knee looking like red, green, black and blue volley ball, hell's fire came a knocking.

Have fun, be careful. I always wanted to ride a bike on 101 where white ligning is legal. Daang that would pump some adrenalin through the old pipes.

[texasjoe]

Hey USMC1, I'd like to respectfully suggest that your wife is not too far off. I used to enjoy my Huskie until my buddy had half his hide literally erased one night (we were sober but zipping along). That was almost 30 years ago.

Back to religion - I'm Wiccan. My wife is Catholic. The Unitarian is the only church we can settle on. I grew up Catholic and that church just freaks me out now. The still occasionally goes to "her" church but their politics give her "cause to pause." FYI, she's from the Philippines, about as Catholic a country as you will find today. There are native Muslims in the south, but that's another story.