Bonita DOES NOT Ban 'Fat' Members

[Sanslines]

Has anyone heard any more information about the couple that were members at Bonita Resort in Upstate NY but are no longer welcome there? The story is that the owner telephoned the couple and asked them not to return because the woman was "fat". The couple is planning to sue in federal court over discrimination against 'women of size'. In a related matter, since there is so much alleged discrimination against single males at some clubs, has anyone ever heard about a single or singles getting together to sue a club for gender discrimination?

[Sanslines]

Has anyone heard any more information about the couple that were members at Bonita Resort in Upstate NY but are no longer welcome there? The story is that the owner telephoned the couple and asked them not to return because the woman was "fat". The couple is planning to sue in federal court over discrimination against 'women of size'. In a related matter, since there is so much alleged discrimination against single males at some clubs, has anyone ever heard about a single or singles getting together to sue a club for gender discrimination?

People are always saying in these forums that nudist venues have the right to set any rules they want since it's their business. However, if they turn anyone away for ANY reason other than inappropriate behavior then they have discriminated, and that is wrong.

Nudist resorts, clubs or whatever SHOULD be sued any time they turn someone away simply because they're single, too fat, deformed, or any one of a number of other excuses that could be used. If they got sued often because of their discriminations, they would change their policies.

Let's say I owned a business and was hiring. Let me say that this is only an example and NOT something I would do. Anyway, I turn one woman down because she's "too fat". I turn a man down because he's black , hispanic, or some other minority. I turn another man down because he's a Jew, a Catholic, or any one of a number of other religions, or I turn someone down because he's an atheist. I turn another man down because he's in a wheelchair. I turn a woman down because she's "ugly".

How long do you think I would be in business? I would be paying out so much for lawyers because of being sued that I couldn't afford to stay in business. Either that or I would have to change my attitude.

Lawsuits would cause many resort owners to change their attitudes and policies or go out of business, and I'm all for it.

Naturism is SUPPOSED to be about acceptance. However, they CHOOSE who they will and will not accept. Is that TRUE acceptance?

[Sanslines]

This is all very true but why have no single men filed lawsuits to challenge the status quo??? I have talked with many single men who claim discrimination but when asked what they have done to fight the status quo they suddenly become very quiet. They always seem to be looking for someone else to do the 'dirty work'. Laws are changed and written everyday. If enough single men put the pressure on and make enough noise then change will occur. Those groups that are effective in forcing change always band together and do something other then complain.

[Jennifer1]

Question, why should we accept someone who we don't agree with there diet. Do you honestly believe that someone who's size makes it unpleasant to look at should be allowed in even though other members will be disgusted by it.

You know that there is always more to a story than meets the eyes, i mean there must have been large numbers of complaints for them to be banned, Just how fat is this women, cause i once saw this really really fat woman, and i honestly felt like a needed to throw up, it was disgusting at how this woman had let her body become so overweight, now should those who are disgusted by it need to sit around an witness such a sight.

Do the nudist place not retain the right to refuse admission to anyone for any reason, after all its not public property its privatly owned.

[DoctorSurferDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
....since there is so much alleged discrimination against single males at some clubs, has anyone ever heard about a single or singles getting together to sue a club for gender discrimination? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OR....how bout resorts get together and sue single males for being single?? (kidding)

I think there are so many more productive ways to solve the problem. Nobody really wins in the game of SUE except the lawyers I guess. It's sort of like throwing a grenade to clean up your room.

The "fat lady" isn't exactly going to win friends at Bonita, plus we don't know the whole story (she may have cost the resort more than the cost of her gate fees by stretching some lawn chairs beyond repair).

The unified nudist single male populus could pool their money and energy to create a nudist resort where they make the rules....in the long run that would be more of a solution.

And....come to think of it....the last time I was at Disney World there were some kids rides that I was not allowed to go on because I was "too tall" .....think I have a case?

[gormenghast20]

Personally, I don't believe in discrimination of any type. As long as someone is fairly hygienic and doesn't bother anyone else I don't see any reason for a ban. Private property is another matter...I believe they're perfectly within their rights to dictate who they want on their property.

[Eric6420]

The fat woman should come here in Quebec, it is not far from where she lives and I saw plenty of very fat people in naturists centers in Quebec.

However, some naturists centers in Quebec are discriminatory against singles, so she should chosed one that welcomes everyone.

[DoctorSurferDude]

Wait just one second Eric....are you trying to steal Fat Americans?

You'll never win!! .....USA holds the corner on THAT particular market http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(I jest)

[Fresh Air]

I can't see how any of this would be good for nudism. Maybe someone should sue someone else for wearing clothes. I know, lets take it to the supreme court and screw everyone.

Dan

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Question, why should we accept someone who we don't agree with there diet. Do you honestly believe that someone who's size makes it unpleasant to look at should be allowed in even though other members will be disgusted by it.

You know that there is always more to a story than meets the eyes, i mean there must have been large numbers of complaints for them to be banned, Just how fat is this women, cause i once saw this really really fat woman, and i honestly felt like a needed to throw up, it was disgusting at how this woman had let her body become so overweight, now should those who are disgusted by it need to sit around an witness such a sight.

Do the nudist place not retain the right to refuse admission to anyone for any reason, after all its not public property its privatly owned. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your ignorance of fat people amazes me and even more amazing is that everyone is ignoring what you said.

[Soleil Nu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
This is all very true but why have no single men filed lawsuits to challenge the status quo??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You only have to read this board to realize that the last thing many men would want is to be publicly identified as nudists. If they sued, the press would jump on a story like that like flies over honey.

Simply put: they don't want the publicity.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cyndiann - To respond to her posts is to validate her thoughts as worthy of response... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not addressing it is validating it as far as I am concerned. It would be like being at a nude beach and not doing anything about a couple of people having sex in front of you. In both situations I will speak up for what is right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Question, why should we accept someone who we don't agree with there diet. Do you honestly believe that someone who's size makes it unpleasant to look at should be allowed in even though other members will be disgusted by it.

You know that there is always more to a story than meets the eyes, i mean there must have been large numbers of complaints for them to be banned, Just how fat is this women, cause i once saw this really really fat woman, and i honestly felt like a needed to throw up, it was disgusting at how this woman had let her body become so overweight, now should those who are disgusted by it need to sit around an witness such a sight.

Do the nudist place not retain the right to refuse admission to anyone for any reason, after all its not public property its privatly owned. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your ignorance of fat people amazes me and even more amazing is that everyone is ignoring what you said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, Cyndiann. I was offended by her ignorant and thoughtless remark and wanted to say something. However, I didn't know what to say to something so hurtful and uncaring as that. For once I was at a loss for words.

We have some VERY large people here who are also some of the friendliest people here. I have no problem looking at them and talking to them.

If a person is truly a nudist then they will accept ALL people regardless of how they look. Isn't that a part of what nudism is SUPPOSED about? If we judge people on how they look, then we are no different from the textiles who judge you by what you wear as well as how you look.

[Trailscout]

Jennifer is at an age when a 90-pound girl can eat a triple cheeseburger, a shake and a biggie fries and still lose weight.

I encourage people to be a healthy weight, but I recognize how easily those extra pounds creep up on you. The diet that worked last year might not be what you need this year.

I have plenty of obese friends. I wish they were slim, but I love them right now as is.

[RunninBare]

I don't understand why "single male issue is here under "...in the news" but thats ok....I went to a park here in Va. (ivor) this morning to attempt to address an issue. Some yrs ago as a single male I visited the facility. I found it enjoyable,WARM & friendly ect ect..Months later & now married brought my wife. Now here several years later I have xferd back here for 18 months of duty leaving my wife in Chicago. Today I'm told to discuss the conditions of my coming into the facility as a single male. I was upset, fine thats their policy...I swallowed my pride....more upset at my peers (males) behaviors that have rightly justified control on the numbers allowed in ect...However it became upsetting after having been there last week and after having stayed overnight & while departing I paid $60+ food ect..well worth it but AFTER PAYING Im told to call ahead next time to see if there is oppurtunity for me to return as a single...!!! So TODAY WITH THAT CALL MADE @ 8AM & warmly told I'm welcomed to visit,I get this return call concerning my need to see the owner so I as a SINGLE BUT MARRIED VISITOR CAN BE CLEARED !!! by him (unmarried!) ok,ok swallow the pride,ego ect..45 min drive just...to clear this up (couldn't justify $38 for an upsetting visit) in the conversation he tells of no record of my wife having visited...lol...So She was to be informed & acknowledge that I'm visiting the camp w/o her....I had said to call her, she'll tell you. Then I'm realizing that each time I'm to come in from then on my Wedding vow,MY MARRIAGE...my integrity is going to be question...since I alone am visiting....with the 50 year old SINGLE owner judgeing me...Because I was honest enough to tell him I'm married !! or (I could live a lie and find some fictious woman to answer the phone an lie that she's my wife)...lol
all still would have been somewhat bareable except at no point in the brocures...or web site is it stated as to the single male requirement.....WHY NOT ? afraid of losing $$$$
Ask "INA","AANR" how many $100,000's are spent on legal fees, publicity ect....Their wasting alot w/ such a tactics with someone their affiliated with.....It saddens me that so many people could enjoy this lifestlye and they miss the opportunity....Sadder still is such a mentality makes money off of it... Does he think I have to tell my Banker that my wife knows I'm taking out cash ?? Does my mechanic need to discuss my driving habits with my wife ? If there is a policing authority of these camps...please hurry to Ivor Va....I will happily pay your way & your meals, HEAVENS I'll drive you round trip...to and from the airport. On the condition that no person young or old married,single has to be treated such as I have been. Whats the next limiting factor a handicap ?...A religion ? I guess I believe now..my post will be pulled...thats fine.So be it..Whats costly is someone else not getting to enjoy this life I so dearly dearly cherish.
Jim Kennedy

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Question, why should we accept someone who we don't agree with there diet. Do you honestly believe that someone who's size makes it unpleasant to look at should be allowed in even though other members will be disgusted by it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I must apologise to the members here for not dealing with this sooner. Unfortunately, my internet connection has been down fow two days due to a nasty thunderstorm. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jennifer, your comments about overweight people are rude and ignorant. I think you should remember that you are on probation here. That applies not only to your avatar but to your behaviour as well. Consider this a warning.

[Bob S.]

Jennifer, either close your eyes and stay in the safety and comfort of your home or open your eyes and accept the beauty in people rather than the amount of skin they have.

"Let's say I owned a business and was hiring."

Jon-Marc, there is a major difference between hiring laws and private property laws. You cannot discriminate when hiring.

As for the lady in Sanslines' story, she may have a case, but it would probably do better if she were to sue the resort itself for compensatory damages (emotional distress).

As the Doc stated, we don't know the whole story. Heck, we don't even know half of it. We only know about the reason why she is suing, we don't fully know her story yet.

Bob S.

[Trailscout]

Who said that only the beautiful people have a right to be nude?

I'll admit that some people look better than others to me. I am sure that there are some people we might all agree are not pleasant to look at. Age, poor health and surgery scars can do a number on your looks. If we live long enough we will all reach a point where we don't turn heads like we used to.

But that has nothing to do with a person's right to let their skin be in the fresh air and sunshine. We do not exist for the pleasure of others.

Naturism is not about seeing or being seen. It's about BEING.

So I have a natural right to live in my skin. Society denies me that right in most places.

And a nudist park has the legal right to determine who enters their park. Businesses make poor decisions all the time. Decisions to exclude an obese person might not be illegal, but caring naturists can do what is needed to ensure that this exclusion will be an obviously bad business decision in the eyes of the park managers, through pressure exerted by AANR, TANR or TNS.

Trailscout,

I don't remember reaching the point where I DID turn heads. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[missouriboy]

Well, I DO! Of course, they were turning away from me... http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PascoDoug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Question, why should we accept someone who we don't agree with there diet. Do you honestly believe that someone who's size makes it unpleasant to look at should be allowed in even though other members will be disgusted by it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I must apologise to the members here for not dealing with this sooner. Unfortunately, my internet connection has been down fow two days due to a nasty thunderstorm. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jennifer, your comments about overweight people are rude and ignorant. I think you should remember that you are on probation here. That applies not only to your avatar but to your behaviour as well. Consider this a warning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What the hell is wrong with my Avatar? And since when was i under probation? I mean maybe i should be informed of things like that.

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
What the hell is wrong with my Avatar? And since when was i under probation? I mean maybe i should be informed of things like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologise - I seem to have had you confused with another female member here whose ban I recently lifted. In any case, your rude comments toward overweight people are unnacceptable. You have still been warned.

[Mo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trailscout:

Naturism is not about seeing or being seen. It's about BEING.

So I have a natural right to live in my skin. Society denies me that right in most places.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm writing that one down. That's the best, most succinct statement I've yet heard about naturism.

[Walt Iliff]

Hi Folks,

Well, as a person of some size, I was very surprised to see a story like this since I was also certain that it was not so, so I just got off the phone with one of Bonita's owners, Jerry, who informs me that the couple in question who started this allegation/rumor were in fact asked to leave the club due to unacceptable behaviour issues, and NOT due to any issues as may have been incorrectly alleged. I did not question Jerry as to the specific behaviour issues involved, since that is the business of himself, as the owner of Bonita, and the couple who were asked to leave. Jerry did state that ANYONE regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, size, marital status or physical appearance who is willing to abide by Bonita's common sense rules is welcome at any time. Please, let's put this into the urban myth column and give this issue as it relates to this club the future attention it deserves....zero.

Walt Iliff--AANR East

[nakednudists]

Jennifer1...it is very obvious that you are a juvenile and that you have not yet reached full blown puberty. Since I have joined the forums, I have come across numerous replys that you have written. I, myself, can come to only two conclusions.

First: you are way to young to own a computer and use one for that matter. You need to try and be more sympathetic to peoples situations (i.e. the gentleman who lost his job). I have always heard that boys mature slower than girls, but in your case, it seems to be the opposite. We seem to have many young people here in the forums, and they do not act like you do.

Second: Maybe you should wait until you are 18 to discuss topics like this, as you are lacking in a wide range of knowledge and respect. People will gain much more respect for you, which in turn, will help you grow and mature hopefully sooner than you have shown.


p.s. I hope that I am not being to rude for anyone else in the forum, but someone had to speak up (besides pascodoug) which I just saw.

[Sanslines]

Reading the replies to this topic, it is very encouraging that so many people seem sensitive to others and accept them for who they are. I also hope some day that we can find ways to end all discrimination ( at least within the nudist community ) and work towards true and full acceptance and tolerance of others. It also seems that many single males have been hurt by discrimination within the nudist community. I do hope that AANR (and the naturist clubs that do discriminate) wake up and see the potential of a united front of genuine nudists ( no matter who they are ) working together to advance the cause of nudism. If we work to admit, face, and eliminate discrimination within our nudist community, then I think that our numbers will grow substantially and our influence concerning nudist affairs will grow proportionally. I do what I can and ask others to also speak out against any form of discrimination within their clubs.

[Fresh Air]

Jennifer1,
Rest assured, most overweight people would rather not be in the state they are in. One can hypothesise that a reason they may be in the state they are is because of a poor lifestyle in the past (though, this is far from the only reason). Just because someone may have made mistakes in the past doesn't mean they should have to suffer for it by the riducule of others. Judging someone by what they look like has always been a dangerous slope in society.

What this owner has done is the same as asking a person to leave the resort because you don't like the color of their skin. Just like there will always be pale people, there will always be dark people. Just like there are pleanty of skinny people, there are pleanty of overweight people. Strong reactions to how another person looks to us are often based out of fear and lack of knowledge, such as history. Pleanty of people look "different". Perhaps they were deformed in war and have lost a limb or have unappealing scars. Others may not have had safe environments to develop in. Some may have been sick their whole lives and may even be on medications that alter what they look like.

One thing nudists are supposed to be are accepting. How can we ever expect others to be accepting of our own lifestyle choices if we can not accept others for theirs? Acceptance is sometimes something we have to grow into, but it is always something we have to work at. These people may have lost weight and may have been working at accepting themselves, thereby making a step forward in their own lives. How can anyone in good conscience deny the journey another person is going through? It is not our place to deny another because they are different. It should be our place to accept another BECAUSE they are different. If this can be done, it is likely the person accepting will benefit and grow much more than the person who may be different (they most likely already understand acceptance).

Dan

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
I do hope that AANR (and the naturist clubs that do discriminate) wake up and see the potential of a united front of genuine nudists ( no matter who they are ) working together to advance the cause of nudism. If we work to admit, face, and eliminate discrimination within our nudist community, then I think that our numbers will grow substantially and our influence concerning nudist affairs will grow proportionally. I do what I can and ask others to also speak out against any form of discrimination within their clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recently learned that AANR will not permit gay nudists to advertise their events in the Bulletin, at least not with the word "gay" in it. Evidently it offends them, yet they do accept membership money from gays. I think that is a little two faced to take their money and not allow them to post their events.

[DoctorSurferDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
Jennifer1....you are a juvenile.....way to young to own a computer and use one.....you should wait until you are 18 to discuss topics like this......stick to the Flinstone vitamins and glasses of milk.

p.s. I hope that I am not being to rude </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm....OK, I'll say it. You ARE being too rude NakedNudists.

I agree that Jennifer1 could have expressed her opinions in a more mature fashion, but she is like 15 years old and still learning about life. I think NakedNudists could have expressed their opinions in a more mature fashion too....but your grown, so what's your excuse?

I think Dan touched on something pretty key. Nudism, at it's root, really thrives on acceptance. I'll admit when I first started discovering nudism I was a little taken aback at the occasional 300 lb. nudists I saw on the beach. But with time I began to realize that they were far beyond the level of self-acceptance that I only wish I had, so I studied that concept in my head, and it helped me understand nudism and acceptance more deeply.

There are health issues...but...that's another topic.

Here is a quote we should all live by....

"If you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all"

[nakednudists]

Doc...As I said before and I will say it again...I hoped that I was not offending anyone. Whether she is 15 or 55, she is old enough to know that making fun of big people is not right. I said everything as nice as I could and I take great offense to her "big" comments about people. I myself am no where near big, but I have family members who are and cannot help it. I am very sorry if I offended you, that is not what I intended to do.

[nakednudists]

And Doc, I have read over my post the first time, and I don't feel that it is rude. I was trying to be polite as possible while still getting my point across. I have deleted the flinstone and milk comment though...that, was, a bit rude...and I apoligize.

[DoctorSurferDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
....AANR will not permit gay nudists to advertise their events in the Bulletin.....Evidently it offends them, yet they do accept membership money from gays. I think that is a little two faced... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definatley two faced. BUT....I think the subject goes a little deeper than that. The social mindset of this country proclaims that "homosexuality is imcompatible with home/family". Since AANR promotes "family nudism" they are simply targeting and projecting the American ideal.

It's not very fair to expect AANR to advertise for events that would potentially harm the "family" image they try to portray (as if the image of nudism isn't enough to juggle). FIRST we'd have to change the mindset of the entire country, then we can ask AANR to change theirs.

[need2Bnude]

Naked Nudist, I know how you feel, and I believe you had the right to comment what you did.
Doctor Surfer Dude I can agree with you too, and thankyou for your comments.
I go to the beach to enjoy some nude time in the sun and visit with people. I don't care about, color, age, sex, or appearance. I won't agree with everyone, nor will everyone do the same with me. I do know I rest so much easier when I'm not judging others.
And yes; "if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all"

[Sanslines]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:

....The social mindset of this country proclaims that "homosexuality is imcompatible with home/family". Since AANR promotes "family nudism" they are simply targeting and projecting the American ideal.

It's not very fair to expect AANR to advertise for events that would potentially harm the "family" image they try to portray (as if the image of nudism isn't enough to juggle). FIRST we'd have to change the mindset of the entire country, then we can ask AANR to change theirs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we all think about it, the social mindset of the country thinks that nudism is incompatible with family values. Nudism is coupled with 'family values' to try and make it more palitable to the country as a whole. If nudism was coupled to a group such as homosexuals, then it would be that much harder to make it acceptable to the general population.

[Walt Iliff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What this owner has done is the same as asking a person to leave the resort because you don't like the color of their skin. Just like there will always be pale people, there will always be dark people. Just like there are pleanty of skinny people, there are pleanty of overweight people. Strong reactions to how another person looks to us are often based out of fear and lack of knowledge, such as history. Pleanty of people look "different". Perhaps they were deformed in war and have lost a limb or have unappealing scars. Others may not have had safe environments to develop in. Some may have been sick their whole lives and may even be on medications that alter what they look like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fresh Air, perhaps you didn't read ALL the posts that preceeded your comment about the owner of Bonita.....if not, I'll repeat it again.

"I just got off the phone with one of Bonita's owners, Jerry, who informs me that the couple in question who started this allegation/rumor were in fact asked to leave the club due to unacceptable behaviour issues, and NOT due to any issues as may have been incorrectly alleged. I did not question Jerry as to the specific behaviour issues involved, since that is the business of himself, as the owner of Bonita, and the couple who were asked to leave. Jerry did state that ANYONE regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, size, marital status or physical appearance who is willing to abide by Bonita's common sense rules is welcome at any time. Please, let's put this into the urban myth column and give this issue as it relates to this club the future attention it deserves....zero."

Walt Iliff--AANR East

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
Doc...As I said before and I will say it again...I hoped that I was not offending anyone. Whether she is 15 or 55, she is old enough to know that making fun of big people is not right. I said everything as nice as I could and I take great offense to her "big" comments about people. I myself am no where near big, but I have family members who are and cannot help it. I am very sorry if I offended you, that is not what I intended to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He ment to offend me, not anyone else and Doc i appreciate that you said it was rude, but its not neccessary, sure it was immature of an older man to be saying such things, especially after calling me immature, but who cares, its one man comments from the other side of the world.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:


Definatley two faced. BUT....I think the subject goes a little deeper than that. The social mindset of this country proclaims that "homosexuality is imcompatible with home/family". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree that it's the mindset of the country. It's only the mindset of some of it. For instance, almost all of the 50 states allow gays to adopt. That AANR decides to align with the bigotted part of that mindset speaks volumes.

Gay people are part of families just like straight people are. You know that. Many of them have families of their own as well.

TNS has a gay SIG. They are just as family oriented as AANR is. AANR allows gays to join, takes their money but won't admit they are a part of AANR publicly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
Doc...As I said before and I will say it again...I hoped that I was not offending anyone. Whether she is 15 or 55, she is old enough to know that making fun of big people is not right. I said everything as nice as I could and I take great offense to her "big" comments about people. I myself am no where near big, but I have family members who are and cannot help it. I am very sorry if I offended you, that is not what I intended to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He ment to offend me, not anyone else and Doc i appreciate that you said it was rude, but its not neccessary, sure it was immature of an older man to be saying such things, especially after calling me immature, but who cares, its one man comments from the other side of the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't notice all the other posts that thought your post was offensive?

[jon71]

For the record only Florida has an outright ban on gay people adopting, thanks to the singing bigot back in the seventies. Utah bars gay couples from adopting but allows a gay single person to. Go figure.

[Bob S.]

Walt, thanks for BRs side of the story. I kind of figured it had more to do with behaviour. It doesn't mean that the conversation didn't take place, but it explains the banishment.

nakednudists, why did you assume that only Doug made any comments regarding Jennifer's rude comments? I counted a numner of members who told Jennifer that she was rude, myself included. And we did with a lot more restraint than you did. Rudeness, while satisfying, is an inappropriate way to deal with rudeness.

And by the way, where are your heads?

"For the record only Florida has an outright ban on gay people adopting"

Just to get OT, Virginia has a very interesting manner of denying gay adoptions. First, they make gay marraiges illegal and will not recognize them from other states. Then they state that only married couples that are recognized in VA may adopt.

Bob S.

[jon71]

I tried to find out where things stood as far as overturning Fla.'s ban but most of what I found was not recent. I imagine the '06 election will determine a lot. I did find one interesting detail. Florida has an outright man on gay people adopting but NOT people who have been convicted of molesting children. Shows you were the priorities of Jeb Bush and other "pro-family" conservatives are.

[Fresh Air]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fresh Air, perhaps you didn't read ALL the posts that preceeded your comment about the owner of Bonita.....if not, I'll repeat it again.

"I just got off the phone with one of Bonita's owners, Jerry, who informs me that the couple in question who started this allegation/rumor were in fact asked to leave the club due to unacceptable behaviour issues, and NOT due to any issues as may have been incorrectly alleged. I did not question Jerry as to the specific behaviour issues involved, since that is the business of himself, as the owner of Bonita, and the couple who were asked to leave. Jerry did state that ANYONE regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, size, marital status or physical appearance who is willing to abide by Bonita's common sense rules is welcome at any time. Please, let's put this into the urban myth column and give this issue as it relates to this club the future attention it deserves....zero." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Indeed I did not. Thanks for the info. That sort of changes everything.

Dan

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
Doc...As I said before and I will say it again...I hoped that I was not offending anyone. Whether she is 15 or 55, she is old enough to know that making fun of big people is not right. I said everything as nice as I could and I take great offense to her "big" comments about people. I myself am no where near big, but I have family members who are and cannot help it. I am very sorry if I offended you, that is not what I intended to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He ment to offend me, not anyone else and Doc i appreciate that you said it was rude, but its not neccessary, sure it was immature of an older man to be saying such things, especially after calling me immature, but who cares, its one man comments from the other side of the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't notice all the other posts that thought your post was offensive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes i did. But none of the others attacked me and none of the others called me immature then had what he edited out.

[richinud]

People have a right to be any shape they wish, some don't even have much of a choice about it. Discrimination based on size is the same as discrimination by colour or religion or... whatever. I understand you may not personally be happy to look at someone else when they don't fit your idea of the correct form, but that is no reason to be rude enough to make an issue of it, and the most neutral option may simply be to look the other way.

Just for the record, I was at a club the other week and saw an enormous woman naked. Many people looked at her, to confirm they were seeing what they were looking at. Actually I was impressed she came out and took her clothes off in the first place, I think it must have taken her quite a lot of courage to do that.

Of course we may not have all the facts in this case, and it may not be as simple as it at first sight appears, and we're all jumping to erroneous conclusions based on minimal information - who knows?

Rich.

I know an enormous woman is a nude model. Not everyone is repulsed by "fat" people.

[SunGod]

Any club has the right to let in who they want and ban who they want. It happens all the time and everywhere. Nightclubs do it: not cool?, not hot?, your not getting in! Golf Clubs do it: not rich?, not succesful?, not getting in! The MTV beach house does it: not young? not hot? go home! Gated communities do it: not rich? forget it. I know of some dept. stores that do it, if your not dressed up enough to shop there: leave! The military: too dumb, too short, too tall, too fat, not perfect vision, your country doesnt need you. Universities do it: too dumb? Cant afford us? Get lost! Its everywhere.

Like it or not, everyone discriminates, whether they realize it or not. Nor is it a bad thing. Discrimination- ie the act of choosing or picking or making a decision on something is not inherently evil. Its only when we apply it to another human that everyone gets pissy and I think in general its a stupid thing to get upset over.

[Bob S.]

"Discrimination- ie the act of choosing or picking or making a decision on something is not inherently evil. Its only when we apply it to another human that everyone gets pissy and I think in general its a stupid thing to get upset over."

I agree with you SunGod that discrimination is not inherently evil. I will go even further and say that discrimination can be a very useful and life-saving tool. Someone knocks on your door and asks to use your phone. You have a weird feeling about this person and tell them sorry, but you are too busy. You read in the paper the next day that this man was arrested for raping soneone who let him into their house to use the phone.

But with discrimination comes responsiblity and discreetness. Owning up to the reasons for the discrimination are important.

This topic started on the premise that a nudist park discriminated against a guest for being too fat. The accusation is that the owner called the couple and said that the wife was too fat. Now yes, he would have the right to ban someone from his property, but to do so for that reason and saying it is wholly irresponsible and, if true, would lead to a lot more discrimination, this time of others discriminating where to spend their time and money.

An organization can have any legal policy it wants regarding membership, but in the end, those rules are going to be subjected to the public's scrutiny. So yes, it is something to get upset about. Getting upset is the only wy to try to effect change.

Bob S.

[cigarhog]

Although I think its horrible for any club, resort or any other type of business to discriminate for any reason at any time. There may be more to the story than we are hearing. If you take it for face value, that resort is perpetrating an act that is so contradictory to the Nudist Philosophy that doesnt make any sense.
The best way to protest a business is to hit them in the pocketbook. If other patrons know about this alleged discrimination, they should boycott the place until they change their policy or go out of business. Or if they get enough people, they can start their own place & set any policy that they see fit.

That said, If they are a privately owned business, I feel they are within their rights to discriminate against any person for any reason at any time(as disgusting as discrimination may be). You are really dealing with what could be a double edged sword. If lets a Nazi wanted access to that resort, & they didnt let him/her in, is the resort within their rights to discriminate against that person? Shouldn't I be within my rights to tell them to go elsewhere without fear of being sued.

Bruce

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cigarhog:
The best way to protest a business is to hit them in the pocketbook. If other patrons know about this alleged discrimination, they should boycott the place until they change their policy or go out of business. Or if they get enough people, they can start their own place & set any policy that they see fit.
------------------------------------------------
Cigar, I have a real problem with this line of reasoning. Firstly, let's exchange the Nazi for a Jew, a Catholic, a Babtist, a bi-racial person, or a person of Spanish descent. Now do you see the problem when you re-read your sentence with the alternative?

While I too would find the Nazi offensive (for more personal reasons then most others here),the problem is where do you stop? At what point do nudist resorts/public accomodations have the right to discriminate.

This reminds me of a dilema faced by the ACLU many years ago. A Nazi group applied for a permit to parade. (I believe this was in Skokie, IL.) Everyone on the local/national ACLU boards found this group reprehensible. But, their constitutional rights were being abridged.

In the end, the ACLU decided to sue on behalf of a group that they hated and despised. Why? Because once you deny rights to one group the rights of all groups are at risk. Sometimes the principle is more important then the situation.

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:
Definatley two faced. BUT....I think the subject goes a little deeper than that. The social mindset of this country proclaims that "homosexuality is imcompatible with home/family". Since AANR promotes "family nudism" they are simply targeting and projecting the American ideal.
-----------------------------------------------
I am really disappointed with your post. I have usually found your posts to add a voice of reason that is frequently lacking. Up until now, I have always respected you. On a personal note, I was going to message you recently about some educational decisions I have to make. I would have liked your input.

Back on topic: I know many families where the parents are gay. I know many of us plan to have families once we are older, settled, and out of school. Yet, when your post buys into the premise that since gay parented families are in a minority they not only can but should be marginalized, even in nudism, it is very bothersome.

In the textile world, many think that nudist families should not exist and there have been many reports and investigations by Child Protective Services due to this. Families are families, single parented, nudist, textiled, and gay parented. In the majority of states gays may adopt. And as you know there are many other options for gays to start families besides adoption.

When you condone AANR (of which I am a member) from recognizing, advertising, or acknowedging gay families (or gay members) you are margainalizing a subset of society.

I object to your being fine with the margainalization of gay AANR families and members. I certainly object to your margainalizing my life!

[cigarhog]

Christopher:

I am not sure But I think you are half agreeing with me. The point is shouldn't a privately owned club, resort, organization be able to discriminate without a governmental agency or law telling me I can't? I am jewish, if the resort that I go to said I am sorry we dont allow jews in here, my answer would F.U. but they would certainly be within their rights to not allow me in. To break it down even more, if they said they won't allow me in because I drive a blue car, my answer still holds. Like you said, where does it end. Personally it should not even start or pretty soon people would be getting sued for not allowing other people into their personal residences.

Where I would break from this line of reasoning would be if the government in any way supports that organization in that case we all pay taxes & should be allowed access to club, resort etc.

IMHO people should ONLY be refused admittance to nudist venues if they are known sex offenders. EVERYONE should be allowed in and given a chance to prove themselves. Otherwise the false assumption that single males cannot be trusted will continue.

[Trailscout]

Quotations from "Julius Caesar"
Let me have men about me that are fat;
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep o' nights;
Yond' Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cigarhog:
Christopher:

I am not sure But I think you are half agreeing with me. The point is shouldn't a privately owned club, resort, organization be able to discriminate without a governmental agency or law telling me I can't? I am jewish, if the resort that I go to said I am sorry we dont allow jews in here, my answer would F.U. but they would certainly be within their rights to not allow me in. To break it down even more, if they said they won't allow me in because I drive a blue car, my answer still holds. Like you said, where does it end. Personally it should not even start or pretty soon people would be getting sued for not allowing other people into their personal residences.

Where I would break from this line of reasoning would be if the government in any way supports that organization in that case we all pay taxes & should be allowed access to club, resort etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see no problem in a business being sued for discriminatory policies. My family owns a business that employees about 100 people and besides "doing the right thing" to keep the public and employees happy -- knowing that you could be sued ensures that you will have equitable policies.

Cigar, while some nudist venues might be set up as "private clubs" those that offer hotel rooms etc. and are for profit businesses must follow the law. The law in most, if not all states states that you can not discriminate. There are certainly federal civil rights laws to this effect as well.

The only place that I agree with you is by taking a stand with your wallet. If you don't like the policies of a particular club/resort/business don't give them your money. But, if you are unfairly and illegally excluded from the premises then a lawsuit would be in order.

[Walt Iliff]

Folks,

I don't know how this subject got dragged up again, BUT!!!!!! The owners of Bonita did NOT, repeat ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! ban anyone for being fat. There was a couple who was extremely disruptive and did not follow park rules, believeing that the park rules were for other people and not for themselves. The owner revoked their membership and requested that they take their business elsewhere. They said they would retaliate and started this rumor that they were asked to leave because she was fat.........NOT NOT NOT TRUE!!!! Please quit giving this any credence whatsoever. I thank you and certainly the owners of Bonita thank you.

Walt Iliff

[Sanslines]

Walt,

What you say is absolutely correct. This was a false rumor that was started by a trouble making couple. They started this trouble in PA clubs and are slowely moving northward. Their next stop is to be Empire Haven and I hope that they are not allowed to cause any problems there. The reason that I know this is that I talked with people from both Bonita and Empire Haven that know the involved people and have stated quite cleary that this couple is out to create problems for clubs. Enough harm was done to Bonita and the record needs to be made clear now. Bonita DID NOT BAN anyone because they are FAT. This was a FALSE and HARMFUL rumor that caused problems for Bonita.

[cigarhog]

Topher:

I have enjoyed the discussion and find your views insightful. In as much as I disagree with the law, it is the law. So clubs, resorts, businesses or whatever are forced to not discriminate on any basis.

For all those reading, don't misread my opinions, I don't believe I have ever or will ever discriminate against anyone for any reason, but I do believe a person has the right to do so in a free country with on their own property.

However I think that if an aanr resort discriminates against a person for any reason other than as Jon-Marc had mentioned being a sex offender, I do think that they should lose their affiliation due to one of the cornerstones of their existence. That is the acceptance of all people regardless of gender, race, religion, body type etc.

Bruce

[Bob S.]

The owners of Bonita did NOT, repeat ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! ban anyone for being fat.

I am glad to repeat this sentence again, Walt. I was going to say so in my previous message but forgot to. Bonita did not discriminate based on anyone's weight. They did so based on someone's behaviour.

"I see no problem in a business being sued for discriminatory policies."

Businesses are much different than clubs Topher. Selling memberships to join the park means that the park may discriminate who joins. Businesses fall under different discriminatiory laws. Could the park not sell someone a towel, sunscreen, or food for being (fill in the blank)? Probably not. But they have the right to refuse the person a membership or revoke the membership for whatever reason they want. AS has been said, the way to counter the bad policy is to make it public and boycott it.

The Supreme Court sided with the Boy Scouts in a case where they banned a gay man from being a leader. While I disagree with the Scouts policy, I also agreed with the SC for deciding that priate groups could discriminate.

"IMHO people should ONLY be refused admittance to nudist venues if they are known sex offenders."

I would extend that to anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime, Jon Marc. And to people who are known to be troublemakers at other facilities.

Bob S.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:

I would extend that to anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime, Jon Marc. And to people who are known to be troublemakers at other facilities.

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true, Bob, I didn't think of that, but then I often speak and write without thinking first. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We had a couple at one resort (I'd rather not mention the name) who were members and had a trailer there. They had a habit of getting into drunken fights with each other, and one time it was so violent that it frightened some visitors and their children who said they wouldn't return. The two members were told to leave and not come back. They had to put their trailer up for sale.

[Walt Iliff]

A question for the moderators of this site...Is it possible to close out this thread? If the subject of the discussion is about whether or not a private enterprise has the right to discriminate based upon whatever.....that should be the topic....Keeping the name of this topic is misleading since it has been clearly established that Bonita did not discriminate against anyone due to their weight, and it it unfair to that club and their owners and members to keep this thread title. It would be like having a topic....JOHN DOE IS A CHICKEN THIEF, then after having established that John is NOT a chicken thief, the discussion turns to varieties of poultry....in the meantime, everyone who just glances at the topics doesn't know that the original statement is untrue....Does that make sense....anyway, it seems unfair to the hard working owners of Bonita to continue stating the title of this topic...

Walt Iliff

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Walt Iliff:
A question for the moderators of this site...Is it possible to close out this thread? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have changed the title of the thread to reflect the truth of the matter.

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob S.:

"I see no problem in a business being sued for discriminatory policies."

Businesses are much different than clubs Topher. Selling memberships to join the park means that the park may discriminate who joins. Businesses fall under different discriminatiory laws. Could the park not sell someone a towel, sunscreen, or food for being (fill in the blank)? Probably not. But they have the right to refuse the person a membership or revoke the membership for whatever reason they want. AS has been said, the way to counter the bad policy is to make it public and boycott it.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">My experience with nudist resorts has been limited. The one that I went to identified itself as a resort (with a hotel). I would think that they would fall under the same anti-discrimination laws as any other resort/hotel. </span>

The Supreme Court sided with the Boy Scouts in a case where they banned a gay man from being a leader. While I disagree with the Scouts policy, I also agreed with the SC for deciding that priate groups could discriminate.<span class="ev_code_BLUE">As an ex-Boy Scout I am upset over their seeking the right to discriminate. Based upon their desire to discriminate against both gay scouts and gay scout leaders I can no longer support the organization. I believe that those communities that no longer allow them to use public schools, public parks, or anything else supported with public money is correct. If you are not inclusive of all of the community you should not benefit from the community wealth.</span>

[Buzzer]

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifWhat determines what "fat" is? Rubens' models were considered robust. Twiggy was a model of more recent times.

[Bob S.]

"My experience with nudist resorts has been limited. The one that I went to identified itself as a resort (with a hotel). I would think that they would fall under the same anti-discrimination laws as any other resort/hotel."

Every park would have to follow discrimination laws for non-members I would imagine, Topher. Barnes and Noble, I believe, has a special membership for school teachers. Now that is also a discriniatory membership policy, but it is their right as a business to have a specialied membership policy that excludes others.

As I said, however, members are different than regular visitors. Discrimination within business memberships can exist where it wouldn't be able to exist within the normal business operations.

Bob S.