Nudism as a religion

[Rex]

If a few theologians, a few lawyers, and a few lateral thinkers got together, they should be able to come up with a workable framework for a "religion", with social, non-sexual, nudity, as one of the basic tenets.
Maybe a reverence for nature would be a good start, something which most of us probably share anyway, and which is becoming increasingly relevant to politics.
A simple, non-judgemental, non-exclusive principle, which would allow people who already hold various beliefs, to be comfortable with.
The objective would be to be accepted by government as a religion, and enjoy all the benefits, and advantages, which would follow.
There is a sort of precedent in Australia.
Years ago, Scientology regularly got less than ideal media coverage here. After a long campaign, Scientology was accepted by the Australian govt as a religion, and now it's just a minor part of the religious scene.

[Rex]

If a few theologians, a few lawyers, and a few lateral thinkers got together, they should be able to come up with a workable framework for a "religion", with social, non-sexual, nudity, as one of the basic tenets.
Maybe a reverence for nature would be a good start, something which most of us probably share anyway, and which is becoming increasingly relevant to politics.
A simple, non-judgemental, non-exclusive principle, which would allow people who already hold various beliefs, to be comfortable with.
The objective would be to be accepted by government as a religion, and enjoy all the benefits, and advantages, which would follow.
There is a sort of precedent in Australia.
Years ago, Scientology regularly got less than ideal media coverage here. After a long campaign, Scientology was accepted by the Australian govt as a religion, and now it's just a minor part of the religious scene.

[Trailscout]

Rex, that's how European (and then American) nudism got started in the first place: "Frei Korper Kultur". A fair number of us still believe in it.

For a lot of people, nudism means nothing more than chain-smoking by the pool while they sip beer from the comfort of their lawn chair, which is groaning under the weight of their morbidly obese bodies. They might not even be nude or want to be nude, but they don't mind if someone else is nude. This has been the popular conception of American resort nudism for several years now and its high time we resume the dialog about nudist values and lifestyle issues. But we don't need to reinvent the wheel, just go back to what we were 100 years ago when this whole thing started.

[Naturist Mark]

This is mostly retreaded from a post in another thread, but it seems relevant here as well:

In the US it is not necessary to create a 'nudism religion', it is sufficient to assert that nudism is an integral part of your religious beliefs.

In US v. Seeger (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=380&invol=163) the US Supreme Court ruled that religion is essentially any strongly held belief system. Your mere membership in AANR,TNS or INA may be enough to demonstrate your 'religious' belief in nudism.

There is no right to engage in any activity you wish by calling it part of your religious beliefs. But until recently the government had to apply a standard of 'strict scrutiny' to curtail your activities. Strict scrutiny means that the government cannot restrict an activity without giving a compelling (and legal) public interest in doing so, and further requires it to use the least restrictive means possible. In 1990 the Supreme Court abandoned 'Strict Scrutiny' in matters related to religion (a decision that is ripe to be overturned). Congress reacted by passing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to restore strict scrutiny protections, but that too was struck down by the Supreme Court in 1997 saying that congress could not impose such a requirement on the States. Since then a number of States have enacted their own versions of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to restore what the Supreme Court stripped away. California and Florida (http://www.beachesfoundation.org/PDF_articles/BB11/ReligiousFreedom.pdf) are among those States.

That doesn't mean we can automatically assert a right to public nudity under various State's Religious Freedom Restoration Acts, but it does mean that we can fight enforcement of IE laws on that basis when prosecuted and demand the least restrictive means of compliance.

-Mark

[hm0504]

I think that naturism has profound spiritual implications and thus has played a role within a number of religious systems; see
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nudism.htm
and
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nudism6.htm
for more info.

However, naturism as a religion in itself would seem to me a rather limited religion.

On the other hand, if naturism could be considered a religion in the U.S., maybe naturist groups could get some of that Faith-Based funding (;-})

[David77]

In Austin Texas, I believe, the Ethical Society had to go to court, as the state of Texas, unlike other states, refused to recognize that the Ethical Society can be a religion. Ethical Society won the case!

[Evernude]

From another string:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
We know from Genesis that God's original standard of modesty for mankind is total nudity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This should be the basis for the "nudist" religion. The actual religion would not be nudity, but the required state of being to properly worship would be nudity. Lots of religious groups require certain things to be worn to please God. (Jews, Mormons, Quakers...etc must wear certain things as per their beliefs.) "Edenists" or "Genesists" must be nude. Make sense?

Hey, but what do I know? I'm just lousy, un-American, evil, Godless, athiest/nudist/naturist prehistorical pond scum. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[David77]

Evernude,
Quakers don't have any special garb. Possibly you are confusing them with some Minonites, Amish or some other religion. However, I well understand your reasoning of what you are saying.

[Trailscout]

When I was a kid, I used to think that Quakers looked like the guy on the oatmeal box. After I met a few, I noticed that they wore clothes that looked like the man on the street.

Quakers used to have a reputation for being old-fashioned because they used "thee" and "thou" when addressing other people, even after those words passed out of common usage. I don't think that they were trying to be old-fashioned. Thee and thou are the friendlier, more informal way of addressing people and they deliberately tried to retain that friendly feeling when speaking to people. I think they eventually dropped it because as the years went by, most people didn't understand why they were doing it.

A Quaker gentleman who used to post frequently on this forum said that the Quakers have been very tolerant of social nudity for a long time.

Former president Richard Nixon was a Quaker, but hey I guess every organization has a bad apple or two.

[Buzzer]

I think a person's true religion is the way they coose to live thier life, father than what church or temple they join. To live in harmony with nature and other living beings is the most important aspect, to me.

[MikeJB]

Yeah, I mean if christians usually want you to get all dressed up for church, how come a nudist religion couldnt have a church but say all members must come naked or at least take their clothes off once inside, that sounds reasonable. I also think it should have some connection to nature, because alot of people these days are nature nuts and I think youd get alot of the "protect the animal" type people to support the religion if it had something to do with preservng nature and all its beauty. I mean the nature part of it doesnt even really have to make sense seeing that what most animal activists say doesnt usually make sense, that way us and the animal people would have something in common /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Rex]

I'm a pragmatist. Nudists suffer from prejudice and unfair discrimination. Basically, I'm looking for a practical way to get official recognition and share some of the advantages that most of the community takes for granted.
Mark has already explained one legal advantage in the US.
Maybe the Scientologists in Australia were just looking for a way to say, "Look you guys, just get off our backs", and they found it.

[Atlantis Buff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Yeah, I mean if christians usually want you to get all dressed up for church, how come a nudist religion couldnt have a church but say all members must come naked or at least take their clothes off once inside, that sounds reasonable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Come to think of it, there is a nudist religion in the world. It's called Jainism, and there are two sects. One sect the monks and nuns all wear white, the other sect everyone wears nothing.

Jainism takes Aesteticism to an extreme. This is because all Jains are taught to rely on nature's bounty for their basic necessities. They also have a high regard for animal life and have been known to sweep off insects from the places where they sit. However, as much respect I have for Jainism, I prefer my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to any other religion any day.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atlantis Buff:
Come to think of it, there is a nudist religion in the world. It's called Jainism, and there are two sects. One sect the monks and nuns all wear white, the other sect everyone wears nothing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only the monks, but not the nuns in the Jain religion are nude,as we were told in a lecture by a Jainian.
See my web page about the Jainians at,
http://community.webtv.net/NatureRegard/DRNAYAKSLECTUREON

[Atlantis Buff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David77:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only the monks, but not the nuns in the Jain religion are nude,as we were told in a lecture by a Jainian.
[/QUOTE]

Oh. I was wrong.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atlantis Buff:
Oh. I was wrong.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Atlantis, you're a rara avis. Very few people here actually admit such things! (I have, on occasion.)

[Atlantis Buff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atlantis Buff:
Oh. I was wrong.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Atlantis, you're a rara avis. Very few people here actually admit such things! (I have, on occasion.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for the compliment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Evernude:
...The actual religion would not be nudity, but the required state of being to properly worship would be nudity.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, several Pagan/Neopagan paths already do require ritual nudity. Some Wiccan traditions come to mind immediately, but some other Pagan religions may also have this as a part of their practice.

Vin

[Evernude]

We have to think "main stream". Paganism...etc will scare the daylights out of most people, due to ignorance, of course. But a nudist faction of the episcopal (sic?) will be more main stream. Hell, they have a gay faction now. (Not that there is anything wrong with that!)Catholic Clothing Optional services or Methodists Must be Naked, Baptist Birthday Suit Required...that sort of thing. Think tax free, constitutional rights, religious freedoms, you can't dictate our faith kind of stuff. Keep it simple. If the ultra conservative right wing religious wacko bible thumping homophobic, nudiphobic, funaphobic morons can try to force their version of morality on nudists, fight back with the nudist's version of 'morality'.

[Rex]

You've summed it up nicely, Evernude. That's just what I had in mind.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Evernude:
We have to think "main stream". Paganism...etc will scare the daylights out of most people, due to ignorance, of course.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Given the growth numbers, if those I've heard are accurate, Paganism already IS "mainstream" (whatever that means). You are right, however, that it isn't Judaism/Christianity/Islam.

Sorry if I've intruded on a thread about nude Christianity. I took the title to mean nude [insert religion here].

I suppose it's a case of choosing one's battles. Try to get acceptance of religious nudity first. We can worry about correcting the "animal-sacrificing-baby-killers" stuff later.

Vin

[Evernude]

I think "main stream" means commercially acceptable. Something that, say, Taco Bell or Coca Cola would be proud to slap a logo on. I guess if you find the right product placement, that may help. Perhaps a sunscreen manufacturer, or a hip brand of sunglasses. A commercial with people at a nude beach sunday service wearing nothing but coppertone and ray-bans. Hey, we could air it on the next Superbowl! Oh...Er...well, probably not.

[nudebynature]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex:
I'm a pragmatist. Nudists suffer from prejudice and unfair discrimination. Basically, I'm looking for a practical way to get official recognition and share some of the advantages that most of the community takes for granted.
Mark has already explained one legal advantage in the US.
Maybe the Scientologists in Australia were just looking for a way to say, "Look you guys, just get off our backs", and they found it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a real problem with this idea. It might be okay, if you don't have a belief system, but for thos of us who do have a strong belief system, it would be problematic.

I am a Christian first. I owe my life and everything to God. I am a nudist as well. It is an integral part of my life, but not the same place as my religion. I don't see why I can't be both.

If nudism gains religious status, we could be forced to choose between them. This is totally unnecessary. You might gain some adherents, but you will lose more.

I also believe that it would give people outside the movement the wrong idea and we would run into even more opposition than we do now. If nudism, can claim religious status, why shouldn't homosexuality be considered a religion. People in all religious communities would see this as a threat to their own status, by being lumped in with currently non-religious groups.

If you think that the furor over gay marriages is big, this would be much larger.

The final probelm that I foresee, is you would have a hard time finding a belief system that everyone would agree on. Nudism embraces all religions and no religion. It should be kept that way.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Clothes make the man, but nakedness makes the human being." -- Kevin Kearney

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nudebynature:
I have a real problem with this idea. It might be okay, if you don't have a belief system, but for thos of us who do have a strong belief system, it would be problematic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are already religions that embrace nudity in ritual and even in everyday life -Wicca for instance.

In the US it is not necessary to have any particular doctrine be official dogma of an established church in order to claim it as an integral part of your religious beliefs. The Courts have ruled that religion is 'any strongly held system of beliefs'. You are entitled to (truthfully) claim that nudity is part of your personal religious practice and belief no matter what church or religion you affiliate with.

The concept of a 'nudist religion' was originally brought up with respect to Australian law as a way of forcing official recognition of nudism within the context of human rights and the free practice of religion. It does seem a bit contrived, as such it might not survive legal review.

There are other doctines beside 'religious freedom' that might be pursued to ease restriction of nudity.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Aboriginal rights (Aussie specific);
clothing compulsion under color of law is a cultural imposition from foreign colonists that should not apply to the Aboriginal population or anyone else who wishes to embrace aspects of Aboriginal culture.
<LI>Privacy;
This may sound a bit backward, but I am speaking of privacy not in terms of secrecy, but as freedom from government intrusion into personal matters. In the US this concept of privacy has most often been recognized with respect to sexual matters, such as the use of contraception, abortion, or sodomy (anti-gay sex) laws. But it has also been used in other areas such as parents rights. It could be argued that decisions concerning appearance and apparel fall within the private or personal sphere and should not be subject to government intrusion.
<LI>Health:
No one should be compelled to wear clothing when it is inappropriate to the prevailing conditions. Wet swimming suits are a health menace, those who require them could become subject to lawsuits and huge insurance liabilities.
[/list]

Others?

-Mark

[Rex]

Hi Mark,
Aboriginal people already have some "traditional" rights not available to the general Australian community.
For instance, they can take some wildlife for food, under circumstances where I could not.
I suggested years ago, during my campaigning for nudist rights, that Aboriginal people should not be forced to wear clothes, at least for such things as swimming, at beaches which have a long archeological history of Aboriginal use, but no-one took me up on it. The Aboriginal people here often have enough problems, without getting into something else of a controversial nature, particularly as relatively few of them seem to be interested in nudism.
As for the health aspects of not wearing bathers, I have mentioned a few times on this forum, how I successfully defied various authorities, by using this concept.
I have had an article to this effect posted on http://michaelbluejay.com/nudity/yeast.html
I have had feedback that this is currently one of the most read articles on the net on nude swimming, and I think it could be the big breakthrough we're all waiting for, if enough people would use this technique.

[Trailscout]

The last bastion of non-sexual nudity on television seems to be documentaries about every day life of tribal groups in the tropical (and in some cases subtropical) parts of the earth.

Many people whose ancestors came from Scotland are actually of the Pictish tribe, the aborigines of the British Isles. (Preceeding the arrival of the Celts such as Irish, Welch and Britons by a few thousand years). Picts went nude into battle against the ancient Romans. I am proud to number them among my ancestors and would be thrilled if Pictish heritage gave me rights to roam Scotland in the nude and pick berries wherever I pleased. I won't demand the right to slaughter Italians on the battlefield.

[Rex]

You know, Trailscout, you may be onto something here.
My paternal grandfather was from Edinburgh, but goodness knows if I have Pictish blood, but if I claimed I had, who could say it's not true?
Native peoples, all over the world, are demanding the right to regain their ancient traditions, which, in many cases, were denied them at the point of a gun.
And nudity, either generally, or for specific reasons, was frequently part of their culture.
I've been following your "call to arms", in various threads, with interest. Tactics which can be used virtually single-handed, and which can confound the authorities with innovative legal and cultural angles, are, in my experience, more likely to succeed, than tactics which require the involvement of large numbers of people, who, when the chips are down, are likely to have urgent engagements elsewhere.

[Trailscout]

Rex,
Almost all "Scots" are actually deculturized Picts. At first all of Scotland was Pictish land and settled by Pictish people. The Scots were a small group of Irish who colonized western Scotland. The Scots may have possessed superior fighting skills or some other technology, but they came to assume cultural dominance over a large portion of Scotland. The Picts were never killed off; the people simply adopted the Scots dialect of Gaelic as the tongue of commerce. The last part of the Pictish kingdom was taken over by treachery and not bloodshed. MacAlpin, king of the Scots married the female heir to King Aengus (of the Pictish kingdom of Angus). MacAlpin then became the king of both peoples. He then killed all the Pictish royal family and pressed Scottish Gaelic language and culture on the entire nation.

Long before the Celtic peoples came to what is now Great Britain, the Picts inhabited Scotland. They lived in villages of round stone huts and built chambered tombs for their chieftans and carved curious concentric circles on large standing stones, and painted their bodies with unknown symbols and went nude into battle with their enemies. Evidence of this culture can be found in northwestern Spain, the Atlantic coast of France, Ireland and the western and southern portions of England. The Picts obviously had a much larger prescence in western Europe in neolithic times.
Anthropological evidence suggests that the typical Pict had somewhat Mediterranean skeletal features.
And in parts of Ireland, Scotland and the Cornish peninsula, many individuals have darker hair and olive skin, unlike the stereotypical fair-skinned, fair-haired Celt or Saxon. Some famous people who may look like the archetypical Pict are Catherine Zeta Jones, Anthony Hopkins, Sean Connery, pop singer Tom Jones to name a few. Of course you could be fair-skinned and have plenty of Pictish ancestry, I am just speaking in generalities.
Some people speculate that the Picts are kin to the Basque. There is not enough linguistic information to confirm that.

[Rex]

This is fascinating, Trailscout.
My 4 grandparents all had dark skin, with brown, or black hair. 1 Scottish, 1 Jewish, 1 Irish, 1 French.
I have dark brown hair, which blonds in the sun, and dark olive skin, which does not burn.
Strong features, and an athletic build.
My paternal grandfather's clan is Maxwell.
What do you reckon?

[Trailscout]

Rex,

Let me reply to the "Call to Arms" portion of your post:

I want to make it clear that we don't need an army of nudists to achieve very meaningful small victories in strategic places.

If you learn that a beach that has been traditionally nude has been slowly going textile, that's where a concerted effort is needed. In many cases, all you might need is a small non-landed club to present a "family presence" on that beach on Saturdays or Sundays. The idea is that you will create a "critical mass" of nude bodies that other more hesitant beachgoers will strip off and join you. If you are persistent enough, the beach will develop a faithful following of nude users who will maintain the work you began. Then your non-landed club can target other beaches that need a nudge in the right direction. Again we aren't talking about 1000 or even 100 people. A few families can do this.

INA's forum can be a means of bringing in additional help. We could plan a few weeks in advance and have a "Let's Visit Playalinda Beach" day, but you should start with a grass-roots nucleus of local people.

I used the example of a beach, but there are countless modifications to this formula that would serve equally well on public land of all types.

[Trailscout]

Rex, I reckon that you are a Pict! I'll leave you with the words of Calgacus, one of our bravest Pictish chiefs, "We, the most distant dwellers upon the earth, the last of the free, have been shielded...by our remoteness and by the obscurity which has shrouded our name...Beyond us lies no nation, nothing but waves and rocks"

[R.M.GREENMAN2]

This is only one source, but here is a Pictish chronology:

297AD- The Picts were first mentioned by name as raiding north England.

305AD- Constatius restores Hadrian's Wall and campaigns against 'Caledonians and other Picts before dying in 306AD.

343AD- Rome enters into a truce with the Picts.

360-67AD- Ammianus Marcellinus writes that 'The Picti, Saxones, Scotti and Atecotti harassed the Britons continually'

368AD- The Barbarian Conspiracy. A massive attack is launched by the Picts, Scots and Saxons on Roman Britain. Theodosius pursues the raiding party by land and sea, and campaigns 'beyond the wall'.

382-83AD-Pictish raid on Britain

396AD- Scots and Picts raid Britain. Stilicho drives them out.

423AD- St.Germanus visits Britain and takes part in the 'Hallelujah victory' over a joint Pictish, Saxon raid.

449AD- Vortigern hires Saxon mercenaries to stop Pictish raiding, who attack Orkney and campaign 'as far as the Pictish boarders'.

450AD- St.Ninian begins conversion of the southern Picts.

455AD- Picts attack Roman Britain in support of the Saxon Rebellion.

455-60AD- Coel Hen of the Britons raids Scots and Picts, setting them against eachother.

460AD- The king of Irish Dalriata, Fergus mor Mac Erc, arrives in Argyll and forms an alliance with the Picts. Togeter they defeat and kill Coel Hen at Coilsfield.

500AD- Fresh immigration of Scotti from N. Ireland.

508-14AD- Most likely period of the Authurian era. The Picts are expelled from the lowlands.

537AD- King of Scotts, Comgall mac Fergus, killed by Picts.

558AD- King of Scotts, Garban mac Fergus, killed by Picts.

561-70AD- St. Columba arrives in Scottland, begins missionary work and visits the northern Pictish King Bridei in Inverness.

580AD- Aeden MacGabrain of Dalriada campaigns against the Picts of Orkney.

600AD- Isidore of Seville writes about Pictish tattoos.

630AD- Domnall Brecc leads an army against the Irish King, but is defeated at eh battle of Moira. Last dynastic link between the Dalriadan Scots and Ireland are severed.

660AD-Oswiu of Northumbria claims overlordship of Picts.

664AD-Synod of Whitby. Roman church takes over Celtic church.

670AD-Oswiu dies.

672AD- Ecgfrith, son of Oswiu, attacks and destroys a Pictish army at the battle of Carron.

674AD- Ecgfrith withdraws from Alba to fight the Mercians.

681AD- Picts take Dunnottar back from the Northumrians.

682AD- Picts retake Orkney from the Scotts.

683AD- Picts lay waste to Scottish capital Dunnadd.

685AD- Picts destroy the Northumbrian army at the battle of Dunnichen.

698AD- A Northumbrian army invades the lands of the Picts and is desrtoyed. Adomnan or Iona makes the 'law of the innocents' excluding women from millitary service.

711AD- The Northumbrian rout the Pictish army on Plain of Manaw between the rivers Avon and Carron.

713AD- Picts and Northumbrians make peace.

717AD- Nechtan, King of Picts, brings the Pictish church into line with Rome and expels Coluban monks 'acroos the spine of Britain'.

724-29AD- Southern Pictish civil war over the crown. Oengus emerges victorious.

730AD-Oengus captures and drowns the king of Atholl, gaining overlordship of both northern and southern Picts.

738AD- A war fleet of 150 Pictish ships is wrecked by storm near Ross.

741AD- A devastating attack is executed on the Scots by the Picts.

744AD- Oengus attacks and defeats the Britons of Strathclyde.

750AD- Oengus' brother Talorcan is defeated by the Britons of Strathclyde at the battle of Mocetwawc.

756AD- Oengus makes an alliance with Eadbeorht of Northumbria and attacks Dumbarton. The Britons break the siege and sieze Eadbeorht's northern lands.

761AD- Oengus dies, and the Scots break free of Pictish rule.

768AD- King of Scots, Aed Finn, invades Alba and fights the Pictish king Ciniod in Fortriu (Fortrenn).

782AD- Causantin Mac Fergus defeats northern Picts and becomes first king of Scots and Picts.

780-90AD- Norwegian settlers arrivwe in Orkney and overwelm the local Picts. Orkney becomes a staging point for Viking raids.

820AD- Causantin dies, and the Picts re-estabish their dynasty over the Scots.

825AD- Viking raids force evacuation of Iona.

834AD- Scottish leader Alpin's rebels during a viking raid, defeats one Pictish army, but is killed by a second Pictish force.

839AD- Pictish king and numberless others are killed in a battle with the Vikings. Alpin's son Kenneth makes a claim for the throne, but is passed over in favor or Drust IX.

841AD- Kenneth MacAlpin becomes Rex Pictorum.

858AD- Domnall I unites Picts and Scots under a scottish ruling dynasty.


And that is where this one ends!

[nudebynature]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
There are already religions that embrace nudity in ritual and even in everyday life -Wicca for instance.


-Mark [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was precisely my point. Nudism is not a religion, but a practice. If it is part of already established religions then how can it be a religion on its own. It's like saying that praying can be a religion.

I fail to understand why nudism needs to be a religion.

If you have a religion then you are not going to give it up to join a nudist religion. I already have a religion. I don't want another one when this one is perfectly good. I can be a Christian and a nudist without a problem.

If you don't have a religion, you have probably rejected religion for ideological reasons and therefore won't join on principle.

Who is left? The I don't knows and I don't cares. Why would anyone want to try to organize people who don't know and don't care?

Why bother?

What is lacking that nudism can't be considered a social movement and leave it at that?
_________________________________________________


I run around naked and I vote!

[S.M.A.]

From nudebynature:
"Nudism is not a religion, but a practice. If it is part of already established religions then how can it be a religion on its own. It's like saying that praying can be a religion."

My point exactly. I'm agnostic, but I'm a nudist anyway. Under this logic, does not mean I have to wake up two hours earlier on Sunday mornings just to be comfortable in my own skin?

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.M.A.:
I'm agnostic, but I'm a nudist anyway. Under this logic, does not mean I have to wake up two hours earlier on Sunday mornings just to be comfortable in my own skin? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nah. Just join a religion that has its gatherings at night. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[R.M.GREENMAN2]

Vin,
Last Summer we had a ritual in the woods west of Denver. There was drumming and dancing, chanting and singing, (totally c/o) and to top it off, there was a thunderstorm to the north of us, lighting up the sky, rumbling a low murmer of thunder. This went on until 1:00AM. The power of that night was so intense that many of us just wandered around, feeling such a natural high, stareing at Mars, (since it was closer to Earth then anytime in the written history of humankind) that some of us did not sleep until the sun started to rise. Then it got hot in the tents. The only drawback to nocturnal festivites. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[shãybare]

Since all religions are represented in nudism I see no reason to call nudism a religion. All races are represented so there is no reason to call nudism a race.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by R.M.GREENMAN2:
Vin,
Last Summer we had a ritual in the woods west of Denver.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! That sounds fantastic. I love thunderstorms.

Last Samhain, Earth got hit with a coronal mass ejection that triggered auroras far enough south we could see them here. I wasn't involved in a ritual, but you didn't have to be. Just the excitement of seeing a natural phenomenon that rare was incredibly energizing.

About it getting hot in the tent: at least you didn't have to get up early and get dressed for ritual. I guess everything has its drawbacks. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shaybare:
Since all religions are represented in nudism I see no reason to call nudism a religion. All races are represented so there is no reason to call nudism a race. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The reason some people want to consider nudism a religion is that nudists would have more rights within the government.

[nudeM]

Shaybare: Great insight. All religions are represented in one way or another when it comes to nudism.

Vin: Sounded like that was a great experience as well. Being nude among a nice thundershower, provided it wasnt't too cold.

Cyndiann: "The reason some people want to consider nudism a religion is that nudists would have more rights within the government." /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Rex]

I enjoy the meanderings of the threads as much as anyone else, but sometimes it's appropriate to get back to base.
You're right, cyndiann, it's about getting more advantages, and less disadvantages.
I originally mentioned the Scientologists in Australia for comparison purposes.
Do they REALLY regard themselves as a religion?
This, of course, is a rhetorical question, because they're not going to say, "No, it was just a clever beat-up", now they've got what they wanted.
[Again, I'm just making a point. I'm not suggesting that they don't qualify as a religion.]

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nudeM:
Vin: Sounded like that was a great experience as well. Being nude among a nice thundershower, provided it wasnt't too cold. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Didn't think about it being cold. I guess that would depend on altitude to some extent. Although if there were a bonfire and if the participants were moving around, it shouldn't be bad. Most of my experience with summer nights is that you can still melt even after midnight. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex:
I enjoy the meanderings of the threads as much as anyone else, but sometimes it's appropriate to get back to base.
You're right, cyndiann, it's about getting more advantages, and less disadvantages.
I originally mentioned the Scientologists in Australia for comparison purposes.
Do they REALLY regard themselves as a religion?
This, of course, is a rhetorical question, because they're not going to say, "No, it was just a clever beat-up", now they've got what they wanted.
[Again, I'm just making a point. I'm not suggesting that they don't qualify as a religion.] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here they do regard themselves as a religion and we even have a few famous movie stars that are Scientologists like John Travolta.

I think many people would have those same doubts if nudists were to claim that their nudism is a religion. Many would wonder if their religion was genuine or created just to gain the benefits of being a religion. It surely is nice to have that extra protection under the law as well as not having to pay taxes.

[nudebynature]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.M.A.:
From nudebynature:
"Nudism is not a religion, but a practice. If it is part of already established religions then how can it be a religion on its own. It's like saying that praying can be a religion."

My point exactly. I'm agnostic, but I'm a nudist anyway. Under this logic, does not mean I have to wake up two hours earlier on Sunday mornings just to be comfortable in my own skin? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is great to find agreement, especially when we are coming from such opposite perspectives. Continue to enjoy your pastime without any strings attached (figuratively and literally).
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To have a religion, you have to have a deity that you worship. I enjoy being nude, but I don't worship nudity. If nudism were to be a religion, that is to say that you are either worshipping nudism or the sun that warms you or---WHAT?

[Rex]

I think there is a major religion without a deity.
Maybe it's Buddhism. Maybe someone could enlighten me.
Yes, Jon-Marc, we could "worship" the sun, a tradition probably going back to the dawn of pre-history.
After all, the sun is the supporter of life on earth, and the visible sign, [if we want to look at it that way], that we are being consciously cared for.
I've heard religious people say, along the lines of, "I see God in the sun, moon and stars.I see God in the mountains and the ocean. I see God in the trees and the flowers".
Anyway, the whole thing is hypothetical. It's just a [to me, justified] means to an end.

[David77]

Rex,
Yes, some of the religions of the world that are non-theistic, that is, have no godhead are;
Buddhism
Confusianism
Taoism
Shinto
etc.

For example, the Deli Lama is non-theistic.
Please see,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/personal/religion/buddhism.shtml
<hr>
<center>List of Major Religions by Adherents</center>
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[Baron Lake]

david77,
Yes but it can be crowded at lunch time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
B.L.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Lake:
david77,
Yes but it can be crowded at lunch time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
B.L. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Baron Lake,
Yes, but everyone gets a piece of the pie!

[nudebynature]

If nudism became a religion, then I might have to give up nudism, since my religion does not permit any other gods. What a nasty thought!

I think that I would have to form a splinter group. Oops, here we go all over again!

[Trailscout]

nudebynature,

Many Christians believe that being nude as much as possible is an important way to honor our creator.

Most churches would be furious if the government suddenly decreed that holy communion (Lord's Supper) were indecent and illegal.

Shouldn't Christian nudists insist on the right to glorify God in our bodies? (At least in special areas set aside for that purpose).

[Rex]

Originally posted by Trailscout:

"Shouldn't Christian nudists insist on the right to glorify God in our bodies? (At least in special areas set aside for that purpose)."

Yes, Trailscout, I believe Christian nudists should have that right, and I would agree with that concept even if I were not a nudist.