Topless Nude Preteen Girls?

[MikeJB]

I was reading the posts from Stu and a couple other guys from the Gough posts about the guy who walked around Europe naked and I found some interesting quotes and I was just wondering how everybody felt about this and I figure ill put my 2 cents in and then see how people feel

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Question: Would you allow a neighbor of yours to let their seven-year-old daughter play in her front yard topless? How about naked? (assuming the weather is appropriate). If not, why?

Yes I would let her play naked, mostly because I feel its their yard and its not any of my damn business and also I dont feel anyone should be putting down some little 7 year old girl because she choses to play without her clothes on, I mean cmon just let her be a kid and move on with your busy life. I wouldnt really care how old she was, as long as she was just minding her own business and not bugging me then i wouldnt care and if I had neighbors, we'd both know right from the start how we feel about each other and this wouldnt even be an issue.


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"At age 7 I would tell my neighbour that I though it was inappropriate. But I wouldn't go beyond that. If she was, say, 12 then I'd notify the authorities."

Why would anyone do this? What does it matter if she is 7 or 12? Isnt calling the police a little bit excessive? The most id do is talk to her parents if it even bugged me at all and personally id just talk to her and keep it simple, I wouldnt want to scare her parents or anything. Honestly though id keep my big mouth shut about it, because its none of my business. Anyways I dont see what would be any different from a 7 and a 12 year old besides the size of her breasts and her hips might be a bit rounder and her body shaped more like a woman but a woman's body is beautiful and I have absouletely no objection to it.

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"Your answer is a little better than what I expected. Where's the difference? In her breasts? Why you would notify the authorities instead of saying to the girl herself, or her parents, that you would not like to see nudity?"

Nudity? For starters, being topless is not nude and even if she was nude, I wouldnt say anything, its my choice to look into their yard which unless they dont mind me doing so is a bit rude id say so if I looked in there id get what I deserved and if that was their topless/nude daughter then well I got what I asked for and honestly id be friendly and not even mention her nudity and even if I did id mention it in a nice way. Calling the cops on a kid to me is just wrong, I mean most issues with kids the parents and whoever is involved can solve on their own, bringing the police into it is unecessary and can cause more harm than good and can usually cost more too, having the parents deal with it is free and there is no hassle.

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"Actually, at about age 10, the law could go after her, that's why I made her a seven-year-old. And what if the girl in question is not yet growing? Or what if the seven-year-old girl had gone through some precocious puberty?"


Thats my point. Why would you even have a law that says a 10 year old girl and under can be topless but not an 11 year old. Do these 11 year olds turn into some sort of disfigured monster when they turn 11? I mean I dont get why someone who is 10 1/2 can be topless but someone with the same body that is 11 cant. Also what if she is already developing? Do you still let her be topless even though she has developed breasts? I mean this is just an endless issue and these days it just isnt worth getting the police into, one thing, its a trivial thing for the police to worry about or waste time with and the last thing id wanna see is my neighbors daughter getting in trouble with the fuzz for having her shirt off or getting carted off to jail like some convict or have her parents put onto some sort of child abuser list. I mean this is NOT justice and I would have no part in it.

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"At age 12 she is developing as an adult and so I would object."

Why would you object? Simply because she now has breasts instead of a flat chest? How would you know just because she is 12 that she is devloping, she could be a late bloomer and have a flat chest, would you still object? Kid or Adult, if people wanna be topless or nude in their own yard then so be it, I mean its not my business to be poking into their yard in the first damn place and it wouldnt be good for my conscience to see the police come over and terrorize and accuse my neighbor or her daughter of doing something wrong and I sure wouldnt want them to blame me for it because im a good person and I dont tattle on people for doing something that should be well within their right.


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"So is a nine-year-old. So is anyone going through puberty. One nine-year-old girl could have the same development as a 13-year-old girl. And yet the nine year old girl could still legally be topless in public. Does that make any sense?"

No, I dont think that a topless 9 year old should get in any more trouble than a topless 13 year old. For one they are just kids and ticketing, fineing and especially arresting kids, especially for something so simple and trivial in my mind is just wrong and if no one calls the police then the person never gets into trouble, which most likely they shouldnt anyways and most likely there isnt any law for them to get into trouble with in the first place. I mean cmon just let kids be kids, get nude, and enjoy yourself.

[Paniga]

Here in ont canada its legal for any female to be topless. I mean all that breast are is alot of fat in that area. In all fairness if a place has a law saying females cant go topless, why not make a law saying males cant go topless also after all we BOTH have chest and nipplesas when we are in the womb we all start out as a female.
If you are offened then i think that you should paint your windows and stay inside /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Jochanaan]

Over the past few years I have come to realize that the attitude much of society takes regarding women's breasts is based on false premises. The most important of these is that a woman's breasts are sexual in nature.

Now, we nudists believe that there's nothing wrong with allowing our entire bodies, including our external sex organs, to be exposed. But even working with the non-nudist belief that sex organs should be covered, what does that have to do with breasts? Their only reproductive function is to provide nourishment for young children.

Some claim that, because it is common to stimulate the breasts during sex, they are sexual organs. But what do you do with a woman's lips? Or hands? Or men's nipples, which are as responsive as female ones?

For these reasons, I believe that women should have the same right to go topfree as men do (it isn't all that much when you look at who goes topfree where), and that nursing mothers should have that right to a far greater extent. So I certainly wouldn't take any action if a seven-year-old girl neighbor was playing in her front yard without a top, except to smile at her parents and comment on how much fun the girl was having. And if she were seventeen, I would just wave and ask, "How's it going?" After all, it's not as if she was naked or anything! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MikeJB]

Heck I wouldnt even care if she was naked, its none of my business. Id just say hi and smile and tell her to have fun and move on with my life. Ive got more things to worry about than some topless girl and really I think its great that shed be topless or naked, so either way, no worries for me.

[Gary Naturist]

The sole reason why I might have a concern about a child being naked in her own yard is over her personal safety.

We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk.

Concern for safety is why you see naked parents with clothed children at clothing-optional beaches.

Gary

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gary Naturist:
We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk.

Concern for safety is why you see naked parents with clothed children at clothing-optional beaches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is there any evidence anywhere to suggest that a 'naked kid' is more likely to be snatched off the street than a clothed kid? Has a naked child ever been snatched from anywhere? And is it really true that naturist parents deliberately keep their children clothed on beaches for reasons of safety? I'm struggling to understand that one.

Rik

[Trailscout]

I can only add that when I was a boy, I used to swim at a hotel pool. One of the girls who was also a regular there never wore a top and only the briefest bottoms. She continued to do so until she was at least 11 and her breasts were beginning to swell.

Her toplessless was never an issue at the time; she played carefree right along with us as we learned to dive, swim underwater and play water volleyball.

It wasn't until years later that I learned that it is unusual in some quarters for a girl on the cusp of adolescence to go topless.

We children were well supervised and had no worries about kidnappers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gary Naturist:
The sole reason why I might have a concern about a child being naked in her own yard is over her personal safety.

We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk.

Concern for safety is why you see naked parents with clothed children at clothing-optional beaches.

Gary <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If parents keep children clothed at beaches because they think they are safer, they have a totally false sense of security going on.

Pedophiles have no problem with taking clothes off a child.

[Kari P]

If we are not talking about nude beaches, instead about textile beaches or swimming-pools and other public places, why a preteen girl's flat chest should be covered? Why the fashion designers have decided that ALL girl's swimwear are diminished versions of adult women's (one- or two-piece) swimwear? And why the parents have obviously generally agreed with them?

In my mind it must be legal to a little flat chested girl to appear topless in textile swimming places and parks. If the parents cannot buy one-piece topless swimwear designed especially to girls, they could throw the top part away and not use it.

Kari P

Some people, like Stu, are so repulsed and grossed out by nudity that they will call the cops on a child! I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating.

A girl of about 5 years was changing either into or out of her swimsuit on the beach. Some halfwit actually called the cops on her! Imagine being so offended by the innocent nudity of a little child so as to call the cops! I didn't actually see this; I was told about it by a friend who did see it.

[Trailscout]

One hot summer day, when I used to read electric meters for a living, I walked over the crest of a hill and came upon a yardful of naked children, all preteens of both sexes. I later learned that they were the kids of one of my co-workers and a a few of their neighbor's kids as well. They had been playing in a wading pool, running through a sprinkler and sliding down the hill on one of those plastic "Slip and Slide" ramps. It was the middle of a workday and all the neighbors were gone, so I was the first adult to pass through in hours. When they saw me, the kids all streaked into the backyard. I suppose they resumed their games when the meter man (me) had gone.

I was not offended, just slightly amused and happy for them that they had a little bit of freedom on that quiet street. One of the mothers was watching them and they were in no danger.

I was not a naturist in those days, but I was charmed by their carefree nudity and would never have reported them.

[Bob S.]

"We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk."

Despite the media, this is an exceedingly rare occurrence, Gary. Only about 20% (maybe less) of the abuse of children involve strangers. Of the stranger abuse, most of that happens with the stranger gaining the trust of the child at a park or some other public place. I don't know the actual figures, but I would guess that maybe between 1-5% of all stranger abductions are from the child's home or property.

Now as for the idea that a naked child would be at a greater risk, I don't know. Maybe slightly, but the biggest thing that abductors look for is the presence of parents or other adults who are looking after the child. That is the single most important thing to protect your child that you can do.

"If parents keep children clothed at beaches because they think they are safer, they have a totally false sense of security going on."

So true, cyndiann. Pervs don't care about what the child is wearing. Abuse doesn't go down in winter just because the children are suddenly wearing more clothes.

And Jon-Marc, to match your story, a few years ago there was a story highlighted by a local editorial columnist about a woman who reported to the lifeguard at a local beach that a two-year-old girl was topless. And the lifeguard actually went over to the mother and asked her to put a top on the girl! I can't remember if she did, but that is just ridiculous. She's two years old!

Bob S.

That was right in Virginia Beach where you are was't it Bob?

I know all over Florida and other places the RRR is still out making laws against public nudity, saying that mere nudity is degrading to women, causes prostitution and drug use and other bizarre charges.

Even in those cases the age limit on applying those laws is ten years old.

We had one pass in Brooksvills just last week, about half an hour away from me.

[MikeJB]

The sole reason why I might have a concern about a child being naked in her own yard is over her personal safety.

We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk.

Concern for safety is why you see naked parents with clothed children at clothing-optional beaches.

Gary

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Im sure if you were a good parent and were watching your kid well that you wouldnt have to worry about anyone snatching him/her and pediphiles dont care weither a kid is naked or clothed, they'll snatch em anyways, so being naked or clothed doesnt make them any safer. I mean if parents would actually care about their kids, use a little common sense and actually watch them or keep a reasonable eye on them while they play then most of this stuff wouldnt happen. It is good for kids to be naked, we shouldnt deny them this simply because of all the problems with pediphiles. We gotta deal with the pediphiles, not the naked children.

[MikeJB]

A girl of about 5 years was changing either into or out of her swimsuit on the beach. Some halfwit actually called the cops on her! Imagine being so offended by the innocent nudity of a little child so as to call the cops! I didn't actually see this; I was told about it by a friend who did see it.
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That's absurd! I mean I cannot beleive someone would call the cops on a 5 year old!!!!! I bet those cops got a good laugh out of the person who called them about the kid, im sure they got real pissed that person called their asses down there merely to get the girl to put her clothes on. I think people oughta get fined for such ridiculous things, I mean the police need to fight crime and stop terrorists and some bozo is wasting their time and manpower over a preschooler??? The nerve of such a person.

[MikeJB]

"We have had clothed kids snatched off the street, out of their yards, and even out of their beds. A naked kid would be at greater risk."

Despite the media, this is an exceedingly rare occurrence, Gary. Only about 20% (maybe less) of the abuse of children involve strangers. Of the stranger abuse, most of that happens with the stranger gaining the trust of the child at a park or some other public place. I don't know the actual figures, but I would guess that maybe between 1-5% of all stranger abductions are from the child's home or property.
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Im sure the media is paid by our friendly neighborhood fashion industry to give such exaggerated facts to people because they figure most people are so guilable that they'll beleive anything and thus want to have the goverment make all these "protect the children" laws to protect them from having to do their jobs as parents and also so they can keep in business. I mean if we had naked kids running around, we'd have the fashion industry out of business so fast and all those stuck up slutty celebs would have to go get real jobs instead of marketing all their sexy textile clothing that does nothing but make gobs of money for them and harm our society. I mean imagine where all that money would go if all these idiotic celebs werent getting it? All these "protect the children" laws do is keep parents from having to do their jobs and watch their children. I mean thats all you gotta do is watch your kid and they can run around and be naked and not even have to worry about anything.

[Bob S.]

Yes cyndiann, that was in my city. The thing is that it was on a "residential" beach or a beach where many people own homes. They think that they also own the beach, but that has been proven otherwise (in another case by some old man) in a court of law that goes back to a treaty between Virginia and King George III making all beaches in Virginia public access.

"Im sure if you were a good parent and were watching your kid well that you wouldnt have to worry about anyone snatching him/her"

Mike, a parent cannot watch their child all the time. Abductions do happen even if a parents take their eyes off their child for sixty seconds. It is not about bad parenting, but about stealthful abductors. And remember, of all stranger abductions, most of them start out with the abductor acting friendly.

"Im sure the media is paid by our friendly neighborhood fashion industry to give such exaggerated facts to people because they figure most people are so guilable that they'll beleive anything"

OK, now you're just being paranoid, Mike. The thing is that the newsmedia focuses on the bad news more often than the good news. And when a child, especially a girl, is abducted, there is going to get media play. This happened to its extreme during the "summer of the abductions" last year. But notice that most of the abductions were not by total strangers.

Bob S.

By the time the police got to the beach I would imagine that the little girl was dressed. She was changing--not running around naked. Even if she had been running around naked--so what? What harm would it do? Would anyone other than Stu be tramatized by it? I saw a little girl once changing under a towel on the beach as I was walking to my car. I wasn't into social nudism at the time, but I just smiled and went on my way. I was tramatized or offended. I thought it was amusing, and I envied her innocence.

Young children tend to be trusting. Even if their parents have said, "Never go anywhere with a stranger", or "Never take candy from a stranger", a child can't resist candy, or that old ploy, "I lost my little puppy. would you help me find her?"

Of course, many abductions and molestations are done by people they know and have no reason not to trust. My first wife was raped twice as a teen by her step-dad. He should have been reported and jailed the first time.

[Naturist Mark]

This may be the original story, or at least a similar one:
Topless 3-year-old makes waves at pool (http://www.freep.com/news/locway/swim2_20030802.htm)

-Mark

[aunaturelone]

I remember reading an article somewhere about Margot and Mariel Hemmingway. Spent much of their early years in a small town in rural Idaho. They said that they and their girl friends went topless as often as the boys their age did up until they started to develop. Nobody of any age or either gender seemed to care; something about the local culture of that small town. Later in life they looked back with longing for those salad days.

And there was a novel, Carson McCullers was the author IIRC, about a girl growing up in the deep south. Something about not wearing a shirt and no problem with it until puberty set in and the boys started to notice.

Makes sense to me. Until puberty, girls' and boys' upper bodies look pretty much alike.

[MikeJB]

OK, now you're just being paranoid, Mike. The thing is that the newsmedia focuses on the bad news more often than the good news. And when a child, especially a girl, is abducted, there is going to get media play. This happened to its extreme during the "summer of the abductions" last year. But notice that most of the abductions were not by total strangers.

Bob S.
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Okay, maybe I was a little bit over the top, but I just dont like the media alot because they DO distort things alot and sometimes they do make things more excessive than they really happened. I mean these newspeople areint always the good honest people you think they are just like anyone else who puts on an act like they are good and honest, mostly if they make lots of money, they seem to always have something to hide, some more than others. I also think that alot of times the media blames things on the kid for not doing this or that or for the person doing this or that and the parent always seems to be the innocent victim, I mean I know alot of parents are doing all they can and their kids still get abducted but im sure this is a small minority of people and the others just have parents who are lazy and not watchful of their children but then blame it on someone else when someone tries to put the finger on them, especially since these days the cps and other unscrupulous agencies can take your kids for whatever they damn well please, most parents try to play innocent so they can keep their kids and so those big bad agencies dont come after them. I dont usually beleive all this "oh me and my kid are innocent" crap unless ive read up on alot of the stuff thats been going on because ive heard one thing on tv and heard something totally differenty someplace else.

[MikeJB]

One quick question............How did child abduction/molestation get into this whole conversation. I mean the main question was is about weither topless/nude preteen girls are ok or not and I just think if every parent worried about their kid being abducted then they'd all still be wearing little dresses and acting all innocent, I mean cmon isnt worrying about all this a little bit paranoid? Its the same with terrorist people comin after you, everyone seems worried they are gonna be some place that a terrorist is gonna bomb and they worry so much about it that it just fuels the terrorist's power, I mean we oughta just go on with our lives and deal with this stuff when and IF it happens. Besides all these child abductions and such are a very small minority but the media makes it look like its much bigger.

[MikeJB]

By the time the police got to the beach I would imagine that the little girl was dressed. She was changing--not running around naked. Even if she had been running around naked--so what? What harm would it do? Would anyone other than Stu be tramatized by it? I saw a little girl once changing under a towel on the beach as I was walking to my car. I wasn't into social nudism at the time, but I just smiled and went on my way. I was tramatized or offended. I thought it was amusing, and I envied her innocence.
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Id just do the ole denial bit. Id have her clothes on by the time the cops came and theyd see her with her clothes on, see no harm done, theyd go run off, shed be nude again and the complaining person would probably be gone and then the problem would be solved because the police would probably scare off the other person for wasting their time. I mean itd be my word against his and my kid would have their clothes on when the cop was there and thats all the cop would see and hed have no reason to think otherwise /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MikeJB]

P.S: Of course id never have this problem because I wouldnt take a kid anyplace where id have to worry about the cops because id take em to a nudist/co beach where he/she could be nude and wouldnt even have to have clothes. I couldnt go to a textile beach anyways cuz I HATE clothes and those people there are too prudish and rude half the time for my own good. Besides as another poster says theyre safer anyways so thats another plus.

[MikeJB]

Topless toddlers apparently can spark lust in adults who are sexually attracted to children
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I read that article about the 3 year old topless girl that got in trouble with that quote in it and it just astounded me that someone would think like this and think that some guy would get turned on by a 3 year old. I mean honestly if some horny old guy is turned on by a 3 year old, id have HIM thrown out of the park, not the little girl. I mean to blame a mother for taking her child to a pool topless and letting the girl have a little bit of fun is just demeaning to me and she really shouldve taken more action against these bozos because thats just wrong to be giving her that much harassment over a little girl and honestly I dont think anyone oughta take their kids to that pool because those people who run it got mental issues and need to see a counselor.

[sawdust]

Young man, you have a lot of nerve posting what you did, and expecting justification from us for your being a common voyeur/Peeping Tom, just because of your hurt feelings. The ladies were right in asking you to respect their privacy and to get out. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif You were wrong for "getting even" and acting like an eight year old rather then the 28 year old you are. Rather then point out problems with other people and nudity, you only proved that you and your attitude is a problem to nudist. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You have a long way to go before you can sit in judgement over other people. Sawdust

[Bob S.]

Buff, I have to agree with sawdust in part that you were absolutely in the wrong when you peeped in on them from the other side of the wall. That was absolutely out of line and a violation of their privacy. However, she was also out of line in demanding that you leave when they were changing if your job entailed being in that room. The right compromise was set when the cloth was used to provide the privacy for the actresses.

But it is a bit interesting that people consider underwear as intimate but bikinis as fine.

Mike, don't even ask how topics change here. Just accept that they do. But in this case, Gary questioned if a naked child would be in more danger than a clothed child.

"I also think that alot of times the media blames things on the kid for not doing this or that or for the person doing this or that and the parent always seems to be the innocent victim"

I don't follow. The media will never blame a kid for being abused. They will blame violence in games and pop culture for the violence of teens, but that is only part of it.

Mark, thanks for that story. I remembered it and still enjoy reading it. It was good that the mother was adamant about not covering up her daughter. The security guard was extremely ignorant in his assessment of the situation and dangerously so. If he thinks that only toplessness can cause lust in pervs, he is in for a reality check.

I also liked it when she told the security to go ahead and call the police if they wanted to, in fact, please do. And the police came and knocked some sense into the owner and security guard.

Bob S.

[MikeJB]

It seems like this guy Georgeinthebuff was wrong on one or two things but right on another one. I think it was wrong that he looked at them without their knowledge, I mean someone's gotta crack the whip with these snobby actors but sheesh to go and do the very thing that you say you areint and condemn is just wrong to me and you gotta know this, I wouldnt even do that. That said, I think that actress was out of line talking to that guy like that since he was in charge there and he was assigned to be there, the woman should have respected him and just changed her clothes and got on with business. I think he shouldve just told that girl to just undress and that her apperance wasnt shameful or demeaning. I did like alot of what he said at first until he got to the voyeur thing, I mean that was wrong but im sure he had good intentions nonetheless and I think yall oughta give him a second chance, he just needs someone to talk to and explain these things to him.

[Fresh Air]

I agree with the points on safety. I personally could care less if a child (or anyone) wants to be nude or not on their own property. Some properties are remote and others are not. I know where I grew up, being naked in the front yard was not safe or appropriate, due to frequent traffic. ...that's why we always went nude in the backyard. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If someone is more in an urban setting, then why not go nude? It would be nice to check with neighbors first in any situation though.

Fresh Air

[Rex]

Re getting changed on the public beach.
USA residents check the US Food and Drug Administration website on "Getting Rid of Yeast Infections".
Under the heading, How to Avoid Infection, it says, "Dry off quickly and thoroughly after bathing and swimming".
If there are no separate male and female changing sheds every 100 metres or so, on every public beach in the whole of the US, then how are you going to comply with this official govt health warning without getting changed on the beach?
And really, the only way to dry off thoroughly is to take your bathers off, get dry and then get dressed. Doing a kind of fan dance with a towel will just draw attention to yourself, will likely give rise to complaints and you will not finish up thoroughly dry anyway.
An ideal situation, if anyone fancied testing the law in this way, would be a candida prone mother with a candida prone daughter, 17 or younger. This is not an unlikely combination.
Not only is the mother responsible for her own health, she also has a duty of care to her daughter.
It would probably help if she had a letter from her doctor stating that both were candida prone.
It's wonderful how the authorities back off, if they look like being sued.

[MikeJB]

Yeah or just say you couldnt find the changing room and were in a hurry to make an appointment or something or just claim you didnt know what the law was.

I've always heard that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". I have no idea how true that is, but if you go into another town, state, or country and break a law you didn't know about, you're still held accountable. So maybe that statement is true. Anyway, we all may wish we could strip naked on a public beach to dry ourselves and change into our clothes, but that's just wishful thinking at this point. I'm absolutely positive that if someone will call the police on a 5-year-old girl, they would certainly call them on a 57-year-old man like myself, who is standing there with what little I have hanging out in plain view for all to see, and some wouldn't WANT to see it.

[Rex]

Hi Jon-Marc and thanks for you comments.
Sometimes different laws appear to conflict with one another and then it's up to lawyers to argue their points and for courts to decide which law takes precedent and why.
In WA, I openly challenged the govt Dept of Sport and Recreation on this concept. They threatened and harassed me, but when I persisted, they sought a legal opinion from the govt Crown Law Dept and when they got that opinion, they backed off [and so also did another govt dept, a govt minister and 2 local councils].
The police declined to become involved.
Maybe the authorities were ignorant of the basic legal concept that you can't deliberately, or carelessly, harm another's health and expect to get away with it. Public liability insurance is based on this concept and there are plenty of precedences where those who caused the ill-health were forced to pay.
No way would I take this kind of action on a busy textile beach. I think even [the more intelligent of] my opponents see me as a generally reasonable sort of person and maybe that is why I have been able to take part in some quite high-profile campaigns, without losing my respect in the community.

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I've always heard that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Me, too. But then I've also heard "if there's no criminal intent, then no crime occurred." These precepts are in contradiction, obviously. Can anyone offer some rationalization on this?

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I've always heard that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Me, too. But then I've also heard "if there's no criminal intent, then no crime occurred." These precepts are in contradiction, obviously. Can anyone offer some rationalization on this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) (from Latin, "mind of the thing") is the mental state that, in combination with the actus reus ("act of the thing"), produces criminal liability. According to Western legal tradition, both the act and the intention must have been present for a crime to have been committed.

Mens rea is usually inferred from the circumstances of the crime. In some cases crimes are held to the standard of strict liability where mens rea is automatic - such as traffic offences.

American indecent exposure laws often include a mens rea element - such as an intention to shock or alarm, or lewd intent. Other elements of the same statutes may hold a strict liability standard - such as a 'reckless' exposure.

-Mark

[MikeJB]

I've always heard that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". I have no idea how true that is, but if you go into another town, state, or country and break a law you didn't know about, you're still held accountable. So maybe that statement is true. Anyway, we all may wish we could strip naked on a public beach to dry ourselves and change into our clothes, but that's just wishful thinking at this point. I'm absolutely positive that if someone will call the police on a 5-year-old girl, they would certainly call them on a 57-year-old man like myself, who is standing there with what little I have hanging out in plain view for all to see, and some wouldn't WANT to see it.
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Yeah well that just depends on where you are and what the law is and how the police there feel. I mean if you actually could prove that you couldnt find the changing room and that all you were doing is a quick change of clothes then I dont think they would mind. The people who called the police on that 5 year old girl were sickos. Who the hell would fricken call the cops on a 5 year old? Thats just wrong and her parents should've found the little hoodlums who reported it to the cops and blew their tops at the people. Obivously a 5 year old and a 57 year old are two different things. Though its not like you look THAT bad and if people have an issue with your body then they oughta just clear outta the beach.

[nudewheelchairTodd]

I agree the child had no Idea that she was in the worng, besides she was being HUMAN. The parents didn't nothing worng ether it a child not a woman and was on a beach were you going to see a lot of fleahs(sp) anyways. Those people who reported her are blind or they are just over reacting what the law says.

[MikeJB]

Yeah because besides most beaches dont punish you for being naked till youre like 7 or older and dont punish for being topless until youre like 13 in some places. I think it has to deal with the situation more so when youre older though but mostly as a kid youre pretty free to be topless or naked and I just dont see how this kid wouldve made anyone call the cops on her.