pictures

[raven]

I was looking around the site and noticed pictures that included children or under the age teens. I was wondering do the moderaters of this site have have fear of someone saying that they are promoting child porn? Does owning and taking pictures of your family and friends on a nude outing constitute as child porn? Almost my whole family are nudist and there are some who bring along thier childern. Nothing sexual about these pictures just everyone having fun at the beach or a picnic.

[raven]

I was looking around the site and noticed pictures that included children or under the age teens. I was wondering do the moderaters of this site have have fear of someone saying that they are promoting child porn? Does owning and taking pictures of your family and friends on a nude outing constitute as child porn? Almost my whole family are nudist and there are some who bring along thier childern. Nothing sexual about these pictures just everyone having fun at the beach or a picnic.

[Ian ftlotlwc]

I thnik the answer to that is NO!!!!

There is nothing wrong with nude pictures of anyone. That the whole point of being a nudist, If you went to the beach with your kids you would take photos of them. Why worry if there nude.

[Rik]

Raven

We've just had a similar debate in another thread but put simply the photographs on this site are clearly naturist photos, it is clearly a naturist site and it clearly discusses naturist issues. It does not masquerade as any sort of porn site although there could be IMO some slight doubt about that as it effectively charges people to view photgraphs of nude people even though it has good reason to i.e. to get money to continue to develop the web site and its other naturist activities.

Having said that there will always be people who consider any photographs of naked people to be pornographic.

Rik

[Ian ftlotlwc]

Sad butt true, people have very conservative ideas about what is pornographic now.

I've read about people being arrested for having nude--not pornographic--photos of their own children.

I lost a "friend" I had known for twenty years or more when I made the mistake of showing her a nude photo of my then 2-year-old and later voiced my opinion that nudity does not offend me. I didn't tell her I was a nudist, but she e-mailed me and said we couldn't be friends any more.

[Rik]

Jon-Marc,

That's really sad. Did she give a reason in her email?

Rik

Rik,

No, she didn't really say why I was no longer suitable to be her friend. Of course, like me, she was a Christian who, unlike me, had not learned that there is nothing shameful or indecent about the nude human body.

I had a chance to tell her that I was a nudist when she said, "You would make a good nudist" in reply to my saying that I wasn't offended or embarrassed by nudity, but I chickened out. I can't remember what else I may have said. Still, from that conversation she rejected me as a friend because of my views on nudity. She was the closest platonic female friend I ever had, and it hurt.

I e-mailed her back and said I had no idea what it was she thought I was doing that was so wicked. I still didn't tell her that I was a nudist. Then she would have had something for which to reject me. Maybe she heard it from someone else if she knew. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[raven]

I've just heard lately of so many people who are being arrested for child pornography. Many who only took the usual bare butt baby picture that was never meant to be sexual. Ours are in the nudist context only with a few pictures of the kids playing ball or other child games. Some are of the kids playing dress up in old Halloween costumes where they are half dressed or playing with glitter makeup given to them for Christmas. I was just worried about someone accusing us of child pornography for innocent pictures.

[Bob S.]

raven, first of all, the courts have recognized that simple nudity in pictures does not constitute pornography. Oh sure, in this day and age of the pedophile witch hunts, people are erring on the side of caution, sometimes on the far end of caution. Some people are trying to see child porn where there is none. But for the most part, very few people are accused of child porn with simple nude pics. Just stay away from Walmart photo developers.

That being said, this site more than likely will not be accused of being a pornography site by reasonable internet users. And those trying to find naked pics of kids will be greatly disappointed by the sheer lack of them.

Jon-Marc,

You didn't lose a friend. A friend will love you despite your supposed flaws. She saw something that she didn't agree with in you and instead of overlooking it, chose to abandon you. Friends do not do that. Shallow, inconsiderate curs do that.

Bob S.

Yes, Bob S, I know that. It still hurt because I was her friend even if she wasn't the friend I thought she was. The nude photo she saw of my daughter was innocent, but it apparently offended her.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I e-mailed her back and said I had no idea what it was she thought I was doing that was so wicked. I still didn't tell her that I was a nudist. Then she would have had something for which to reject me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I can see an argument that someone with, let's say, "dubious" photos who shows them to someone else might just be suspected of getting some sort of kick out of such photos. Put this in the context of being a naturist and everything becomes a lot clearer and, I suspect, more acceptable. There are, I'm sure, plenty of non-naturists out there who accept naturism as a valid 'lifestyle' (I hate that word!) and had you told her that you were a naturist she may well have said something like "that explains everything - for a moment there I thought you were a pervert!"

I am reminded of a first hand account I read of a nudist in the UK who regularly went naked in his garden and at the front of his house over a period of many years. Usually he hid if he heard someone or a car coming but occasionally he would be taken by surprise. Reactions he got were usually insignificant and as the years went on he became more and more bold although he didn't flaunt his nudity. Most people, he said, seemed quite ok with his nudity, a group of schoolgirls just giggled (well they would wouldn't they?) but eventually someone accused him of being "unreasonable" and told him they were going to call the police. The police turned up some 36 hours later and told him they were following up a complaint and the man explained that he was a nudist. The police accepted his naturism as an explanation for his "odd" behaviour and, according to the police, the woman who had complained was later satisfied with the explanation. Had he not identified himself as a naturist he may well have found himself explaining his behaviour in court.

So perhaps the lesson is not to say you're "not offended or embarrassed by nudity" for neither are pornographers, but to say "I am a naturist - why would I be offended or embarrassed by nudity?"

Rik

[RalphVa]

People go nuts about exposing kids to nudity or seeing naked kids. Our fears have even taken over the Asians, who in older societies would let their kids run around naked or at least bottomless until potty trained (saw it in Vietnamese houses). I went for a whole year at the sailing club in Singapore rigging my boat wearing only a thong. During a ragatta there, someone came over and asked me to put something more on because of all the kids there. After that, I found the smallest monokini I could find and wore it. That satisfied them, apparently.

One thing I have to be careful about here is going past about the middle of my driveway in the middle of the afternoon when the school bus comes by. There's a hump in it that drops towards the cul-de-sac at the end of the road. I have to remember to put at least a swim suit on, no matter how small. In the morning is no problem because the bus usually comes by long after I've gotten my newspaper or put out the garbage (in the nude).

Ralph

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raven:
I've just heard lately of so many people who are being arrested for child pornography. Many who only took the usual bare butt baby picture that was never meant to be sexual. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raven:
I was just worried about someone accusing us of child pornography for innocent pictures. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I started the other thread mentioned, because, as you say, regardless of constitutional rights, people are assumed guilty by the public if arrested or questioned, and there is a story everyday about it. It's a real headline maker these days. I personally would prefer to not see them here. While it is natural and part of a naturist families life, it is not neccessary for a good informational website, so why put ourselves at risk??? Additionally, one could argue, that the kids probably have no say in the postings, and one day when they are adults, they may not approve. Even if their parents approve now, it could be devestating to the kids when older. I know people will say that naturist kids are not going to have that reaction, but we are not the ones to make that decision, only they are, and they not old enough to choose for these photos to be posted or not. There are just too many issues with it in my opinion.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
I personally would prefer to not see them [photos] here. While it is natural and part of a naturist families life, it is not neccessary for a good informational website, so why put ourselves at risk??? Additionally, one could argue, that the kids probably have no say in the postings, and one day when they are adults, they may not approve. Even if their parents approve now, it could be devestating to the kids when older. ... There are just too many issues with it in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is that if, as naturists, we uphold and genuinely believe that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with nude photos, it is clearly illogical and self-defeating to then acknowledge that because other people (including our children when they grow up) may have a problem that we will modify our behaviour by not taking or displaying such photos.

OK, I know we live in the real world and I'm not sure we should expect anyone to be a martyr to the cause but the more we apologize for our beliefs the more it confirms to a sceptical public that we might be wrong.

Rik

[nudist_in_Tn]

I see nothing wrong whatsoever with nude photograps of anyone in any age group, I only wish it were easier to post nude pics. here.

[Bob Miller]

It is easy to post photos, just go here: http://www.clothesfree.com/submitphotos.html

Yahoogroups has been giving people a hard time lately over simple child nudity on nudist groups. One group was warned and then deleted. They also deleted the yahoo ID's of all the moderators which caused any other groups that were owned or moderated by them to also be deleted. It caused quite a ripple effect and all over nothing since the pics were not porn.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what the truth is. All that matters is that someone high up gets their nose out of joint by something they perceive as porn when it isn't.

[Bob S.]

"had you told her that you were a naturist she may well have said something like "that explains everything - for a moment there I thought you were a pervert!"

But when he took that photo, I don't think he was a nudist. From what I believe, he came into the "lifestyle" later in life.

But I really cannot see how anyone can really see in an innocent (typical family photo) picture of a naked todder any kind of impropriety unless they are the perverted ones who want to see sex in everything.

I remember growing up there being a picture of my sister, as a toddler (probably about 2) in a bathtub. You could see her bare bottom and no one ever complained about it. Everyone thought it was cute, except of course for my sister who found it embarrassing.

And by the way, cyndiann, I was thankfully spared from the fallout by the deletion of the yahoo groups. I am an owner of one group and moderator of another on that account.

Bob S.

No, I wasn't into social nudism and couldn't even have called myself a nudist at the time. She saw the photo years ago, and it apparently gave her doubts about me and my morals. Then years later after I joined a nudist club, we were talking at her home when the subject of nudity somehow came up--I don't remember exactly how. Right after that she e-mailed me and said we couldn't be friends any more.

She is a Christian who apparently believes the nude body to be something that should be hidden. To express a different viewpoint was the same as giving her the idea that I wasn't morally right. Had I said "I'm a nudist", that in her mind would have been no different than if I had said, "I visit the local *****house at least once a week." Although I have no idea where such places are, I've heard that we have them.

She is of the old puritan beliefs and totally uninformed about the purity of the human body, and anything like going to a nudist resort would shock and dismay her. She wouldn't have said, "That explains everything-for a moment there I thought you were a pervert!" She would have said something like, "I suspected you were into something immoral, and now you just conformed it."

All those years I never knew she saw anything wrong in an innocent nude photo of a 2-year-old. Apparently she wasn't the friend I thought she was if she couldn't tell me how she felt about it. I've thought about destroying the photo since even my daughter is embarrassed by it. I took it out of my photo album but haven't been able to bring myself to throw it away. I have another one of her at a younger age being bathed in the sink, and that one offended my "friend" also. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I've thought about destroying the photo since even my daughter is embarrassed by it. I took it out of my photo album but haven't been able to bring myself to throw it away. I have another one of her at a younger age being bathed in the sink, and that one offended my "friend" also. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is exacly my point from above. I am not sure if this girl is an adult now, but how would she react if she knew that that photo was posted on the internet? Do you think that as a parent that you should have the right to post the photo, given the fact that it is of controversial (I did not say wrong or illegal) nature? If you read back in my posts, I have never said that I believe the innocent photos were pornographic and thus should be illegal, but I beleve that this forum and group would be better off fighting battles yet to be won for public nude acceptance at beaches, parks, etc, rather than fighting battles over silly nude pictures. I am not sure if this group or others has ever fought a court battle over anything, but I am sure that the label, "child porn site" would not give you much credibility in front of a jury. Remember, a label can be used, without a crime being committed.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
...I beleve that this forum and group would be better off fighting battles yet to be won for public nude acceptance at beaches, parks, etc, rather than fighting battles over silly nude pictures. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In order to win battles for public nude acceptance at beaches, parks etc it is necessary to demonstrate that nudism is not about pornography. I understand that we live in the real world and people will use whatever labels they can to oppose the things which we believe in but if we behave in a way which acknowledges that there may be a grain of truth in the labels then the battles will be lost.

I have no problems with the concept of a naturist site without photos - and on that aspect I agree with you that the INA doesn't realy need them - but to display naturist photos of adults yet censor naturist photos of children will, I think, do more harm than good.

Rik

[Bob S.]

Jon-Marc,

What would be gained by throwing away an innocent picture of your baby girl? The picture was in a photo album (meaning you are farther along than most parents in keeping your family pictures) that I am assuming you didn't show to everyone who managed to come through the door. You also, I am assuming, do not drag out the album whenever she comes to visit and point out that picture to her.

Keep the picture. It has too many memories for one clothed-minded woman to destroy. If it was your daughter in a pirate costume for Halloween, would you throw it away? Why should the fact that it is of her unclad make any difference. Put it back, Jon-Marc. Give it its home back in your memory, in your family's memory album. Children are embarassed about many pictures, clothed or not. Why let her embarassment rule your album? When she has children, she'll understand.

Also, I have this superstition about destroying pictures. Kind of like a voodoo type of curse will befall the person whose picture is defiled. But hey, that's just me. Listen to my former reasons for keeping it. I can think of no reason for getting rid of it.

And Brian, I don't think that Jon-Marc wants to post his daughter's pic on the internet. He just wants to keep it in his actual photo album, not a virtual album.

Now as for posting children's pictures on the internet, again, it should be up to the parent's discretion. Of course they should weigh the pros and cons before doing so, but it should be their decision alone.

And the government has come up with rules for determining what is and is not porn, especially child porn. I am going to trust the administrators of this board, who are nudists themselves, and who want to forward the cause, to post responsible pictures.

Bob S.

No, I wouldn't think of putting my daughter's nude picture on the Internet. She would be very upset if she knew. She's 32 now which makes the picture 30 years old. I've only shown the photo album to a few relatives and friends.

I've made enough mistakes as a dad. Since my daughter is embarrassed for anyone to see the picture, I removed it from the album but still have it since it's certainly not pornographic.

My daughters are not naturists and have no desire to be. My older daughter, the one I took the picture of, was shocked when I told her I had joined a nudist club. My other daughter has taught her kids to be overly modest. They didn't get that from me. They were 2 months old and 2 months short of 3 years old when their mother and I separated, and so I've had very little influence over their beliefs.