THE MOST CONTRAVERSIAL [Archive]

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 07:38 PM

I guess this one may get me kicked off the forum, but it needs to be brought forward. Cyndianne you will especially like this one and hate me even more, I'm sure my sleep will be hampered.
I watched a discussion between two gay and lesbian people on the O'Reilly factor on 6-30-03.
This is where I have a problem, if this is so natural a lifestyle, where would we be if Adam and Abraham were GAY???
We would not be here, DAWH. This tells me that male and female is the only natural way GOD has created us for the pro creation of this world. When GOD created this world he created
Adam in his likeness and from his rib he created Eve so he would have a companion to share his life, he didn't create Fred or Joe, no it was eve.Gay and lesbians have no place for the pro creation of this world. We wouldn't be here now and there is no future for a gay and lesbian world. DNA and frozan sperm will not continue this world. You would soon be back to heterasexual relations, then the gays,would be on the outside looking in. This will probably raise some eyebrows. Hey thats just me.

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 07:38 PM

florida-david

07-01-2003, 07:57 PM

river rat - consider my eyebrow raised /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

your first incorrect assumption - your interpretation of the bible is not the only one -hello, we are not all christians!!! we do not all have the same belief system that your religion does.

second - there are LOTS of kids out their without a family. these kids are perfect for homosexual adoption. fortunately, the supreme court has made some important strides to advancing gay rights recently. this is an incredible victory for gays and lesbians and for the future of homosexual marriages and adoptions. there are already many homosexual couples providing loving homes for foster kids, yet they can not adopt these same kids due to some archaic, christian based beliefs that are still prevalent in the law. fortunately this is changing. there will always be homeless kids and wonderful homosexual homes for those kids should society get over its prejudice and move on. if
heterosexual couples were doing their job, there would be no homeless kids in the first place!

thanks for bringing up this subject as it is an important one. it has nothing to do with nudity, but it is important in regards to personal freedom, and as a nudist, we should all be in favour of our rights regarding personal freedom.

now cyndiann - please let him have it

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 08:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
river rat - consider my eyebrow raised /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

your first incorrect assumption - your interpretation of the bible is not the only one -hello, we are not all christians!!! we do not all have the same belief system that your religion does.

second - there are LOTS of kids out their without a family. these kids are perfect for homosexual adoption. fortunately, the supreme court has made some important strides to advancing gay rights recently. this is an incredible victory for gays and lesbians and for the future of homosexual marriages and adoptions. there are already many homosexual couples providing loving homes for foster kids, yet they can not adopt these same kids due to some archaic, christian based beliefs that are still prevalent in the law. fortunately this is changing. there will always be homeless kids and wonderful homosexual homes for those kids should society get over its prejudice and move on. if
heterosexual couples were doing their job, there would be no homeless kids in the first place!

thanks for bringing up this subject as it is an important one. it has nothing to do with nudity, but it is important in regards to personal freedom, and as a nudist, we should all be in favour of our rights regarding personal freedom.

now cyndiann - please let him have it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh well, I guess when they pass on there genes, they will have to use a test tube. It has everything to to do with nudity, I really want to know if that woody is for me or for her, I would like to believe that there life of this world is based on a heterasexual life style not a gay lifestyle, so ends our lives if gays take over, test tubes OH come now!!!!!

07-01-2003, 08:29 PM

First of all, this topic was posted in the wrong section and has nothing to do with nudism or nude recreation. It needs to be moved.

Second point is I don't hate anyone and people seem to like to throw this word around a lot on this board. I may think you are wrong but hate isn't a factor in any view I hold.

Third point, homosexuality isn't a lifestyle any more than blue eyes would be. If there were a homosexual lifestyle there'd also be a heterosexual lifestyle and neither one exists. Lifestyles are independant of the sexual orientation of an individual.

How anyone could dislike someone because of something they were born with is a mystery to me.

How anyone could think that making more people in this day and age, with all the damage humans have done to this planet is of any importance is also a mystery to me. Quite frankly the planet would be better off without us. Why are we so beligerant that we think the planet cares if we are here when we are the ones doing it damage?

With only about ten percent of the population being gay there is no danger of our species disappearing anytime soon anyway. Homosexuality is common in most animals and is a natural phenomenon. Many gays/lesbians have children anyway so I don't get the arguement that they aren't contributing to continuing the population. (as if we need more people)

How come if that christian book says it is so bad that there are so many christians that are gay friendly and gay themselves? If you can only base your arguments on what a book says, a book that can't be backed up in factual evidence I say you don't have an argument.

Prometheus

07-01-2003, 08:34 PM

Rat, you seem to be traveling in a storm of controversy lately /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
This is where I have a problem, if this is so natural a lifestyle, where would we be if Adam and Abraham were GAY??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if you want to be technical about it, I am not Hebrew, nor am I Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Nor do I believe the Genesis creation story. So I imagine I would be exactly where I am now.

Gays and lesbians make up around 10% of the population. Even if none of them have children (though many do), having the other 90% of the population reproduce is more than enough for this overcrowded planet.

Rooster

07-01-2003, 08:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
When GOD created this world he created
Adam in his likeness and from his rib he created Eve <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm, Rat,

This sounds a little bit like cloning to me... sure there weren't any test tubes involved?

How about the immaculate conception... perhaps a bit of artificial insemination going on, possibly?

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 08:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
First of all, this topic was posted in the wrong section and has nothing to do with nudism or nude recreation. It needs to be moved.

Second point is I don't hate anyone and people seem to like to throw this word around a lot on this board. I may think you are wrong but hate isn't a factor in any view I hold.

Third point, homosexuality isn't a lifestyle any more than blue eyes would be. If there were a homosexual lifestyle there'd also be a heterosexual lifestyle and neither one exists. Lifestyles are independant of the sexual orientation of an individual.

How anyone could dislike someone because of something they were born with is a mystery to me.

How anyone could think that making more people in this day and age, with all the damage humans have done to this planet is of any importance is also a mystery to me. Quite frankly the planet would be better off without us. Why are we so beligerant that we think the planet cares if we are here when we are the ones doing it damage?

With only about ten percent of the population being gay there is no danger of our species disappearing anytime soon anyway. Homosexuality is common in most animals and is a natural phenomenon. Many gays/lesbians have children anyway so I don't get the arguement that they aren't contributing to continuing the population. (as if we need more people)

How come if that christian book says it is so bad that there are so many christians that are gay friendly and gay themselves? If you can only base your arguments on what a book says, a book that can't be backed up in factual evidence I say you don't have an argument. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hello Cyndianne, I have my opinion you have yours , when I brought your name up It was because of what you have said in the past, you have brought up some good points, but I believe I have too, we would not be here today but for the pro creation of those before us, I personnally believe the BIBLE is the word of GOD if you do not that is your privilage. I don't judge for that, if I didn't want your input I would have not have mentioned your name. This forum is for all regardless of how we believe. I introduced this subject here for the most traffic, if you dissagree sorry. I want to get the most I can from this topic, if only neggative, lets see where it goes????

Naturist Mark

07-01-2003, 09:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
I personnally believe the BIBLE is the word of GOD if you do not that is your privilage <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 2nd Samuel 1:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=2+samuel+1%3A26&section=1&version=kjv&language=en)

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Prometheus:
Rat, you seem to be traveling in a storm of controversy lately /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
This is where I have a problem, if this is so natural a lifestyle, where would we be if Adam and Abraham were GAY??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if you want to be technical about it, I am not Hebrew, nor am I Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Nor do I believe the Genesis creation story. So I imagine I would be exactly where I am now.

Gays and lesbians make up around 10% of the population. Even if none of them have children (though many do), having the other 90% of the population reproduce is more than enough for this overcrowded planet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yah no I haven't got a clue as to what you just said, but yes I love to kick up the dust, it keeps me interresting. You are the third neggative response, I guess that makes this a lagittament topic. good to here from you.

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 09:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rooster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
When GOD created this world he created
Adam in his likeness and from his rib he created Eve <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm, Rat,

This sounds a little bit like cloning to me... sure there weren't any test tubes involved?

How about the immaculate conception... perhaps a bit of artificial insemination going on, possibly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm, thats four for four neggetive, was I wrong, I don't think so Tim, I love a good mystery, DON'T YOU. I've only posted a little over an hour and already every one hates me, perfect, this is a dangerous topic, Am I the only one who dares to address it??? Yah know you say what you want about GOD and his angles and Saints but as for his mom you have gone to far, you will pay for that, how would you feel if someone insulted your mother, not good.

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 09:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
river rat - consider my eyebrow raised /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

your first incorrect assumption - your interpretation of the bible is not the only one -hello, we are not all christians!!! we do not all have the same belief system that your religion does.

second - there are LOTS of kids out their without a family. these kids are perfect for homosexual adoption. fortunately, the supreme court has made some important strides to advancing gay rights recently. this is an incredible victory for gays and lesbians and for the future of homosexual marriages and adoptions. there are already many homosexual couples providing loving homes for foster kids, yet they can not adopt these same kids due to some archaic, christian based beliefs that are still prevalent in the law. fortunately this is changing. there will always be homeless kids and wonderful homosexual homes for those kids should society get over its prejudice and move on. if
heterosexual couples were doing their job, there would be no homeless kids in the first place!

thanks for bringing up this subject as it is an important one. it has nothing to do with nudity, but it is important in regards to personal freedom, and as a nudist, we should all be in favour of our rights regarding personal freedom.

now cyndiann - please let him have it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ya know what, we won't have to worry about kids without parents when there are no kids because with gay and lesbian relations you can't make kids except through artaficial incemination and why would anyone won't to do that. so smarten up , it ain't gonna happen.

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 09:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by naturistmark1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
I personnally believe the BIBLE is the word of GOD if you do not that is your privilage <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 2nd Samuel 1:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=2+samuel+1%3A26&section=1&version=kjv&language=en) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>AMEN my brother, need your help upstairs.

RIVERRAT

07-01-2003, 09:57 PM

07-01-2003, 10:16 PM

Boy Riverrat...you sure seem to have problem here. Maybe I can help...see my first posting on the Tatoo and Genital Piercing.
**** **** **** **** **** ****
Although you may not agree with the lifestlyle it is a fact of life. As long as no one tries to take you to the "dark side" of homosexual life, lighten up..."Live and Let Live".
**** **** **** **** **** ****
Think about my last paragraph: Same could be said by a "textile" about the nudist lifestyle. hmmmmmmmm......Have a great evening. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

nude in wheelchair

07-02-2003, 01:10 AM

River Rat I Have a relationship with the lord but let the lord handle the Judging not us all we need to do is share the good news and the same with nudism.

I Pray for blessing for everyone

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 04:28 AM

OY GAVALT !

Naturist Mark

07-02-2003, 04:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by naturistmark1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RIVERRAT:
I personnally believe the BIBLE is the word of GOD if you do not that is your privilage <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 2nd Samuel 1:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=2+samuel+1%3A26&section=1&version=kjv&language=en) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanx I think thats one for my side <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In case anyone missed the irony, the verse is David's lament on the death of Jonathan who's love was "passing the love of women."

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 05:50 AM

I have never posted anything contraversial in this forum and I am not about to start now. However, I will not shy away from controversy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hmmm Let's see if this thread is about "The Fun of Nude Recreation" and the current topic is sex, well I guess sex can be done in the nude (that is correct, isn't it) and with the right partner it might even be fun. But this is a family forum, so I'll just leave it at that.

I have lots of opinions and spiritual advise to offer, but not here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

florida-david

07-02-2003, 05:51 AM

river rat, i think that no one hear hates you, but i wish you would stop reprinting the previous post on every post that you make. why do you do that, it takes up tooooo much space, can you save scroll, scroll, scroll,

thanks for initiating contoversy, fortunately most people here agree your opinion is wrong....

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 05:53 AM

David, you are so wrong. There was nothing contoversial about Riverrat's post. (And nothing contraversial either).

florida-david

07-02-2003, 06:05 AM

sorry, my spelling is not up to par, i will take more time proooof reading?

he called it controversial, not me. i'm only repeating what he named his post. why not hop all over river rat? i would say you are wrong as well, since posting posts that are clearly designed to slam 10% of the population is controversial. and prejudiced. and i must state my opinion that anyone with this homophobic prejudice is plain mean. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Stevedaoust

07-02-2003, 06:20 AM

There's always ONE that has to stir up the pot to get attention.
First, WHY bring this up? You hope to gain what? Second, the information is not justifiable.
In the American Indian culture, Homosexuals are thought of as special spirits because their spirits 'did not' seperate before birth, so they carry with them BOTH sides of the human nature.
As for having children. There's a paper written that science can now extract the genes from sperm stem cells to develope a working human egg and can do the same thru a human egg to develope a human sperm. It's still years away but it kinda deflates that theory...
I bet that wasn't covered in that bible of yours.
Don't view homosexuals as gays/lesbians see them as the HUMANS that they are and you'll find the most supportive giving group of humans you'll ever see in existance!

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 06:23 AM

David,

I was kidding about the spelling goofs. I promise if you run spell check on some of my posts, you will find plenty of gooofs. Please don't run logic check on my posts. That's not fair!

If anyone creates a thread in some off-topic area that discusses the merits or demerits of various sexual orientations, I will contribute. I am trying my best to be a good Netizen and not join in here. My comments about contraversy were just a spelling jest, not a true opinion.

florida-david

07-02-2003, 06:30 AM

hi all

it is spelled contrOversy, not contrAversy. i just looked in my websters. there is not an a there???

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 06:47 AM

I knew I still had this somewhere......it was emailed from a friend a year or so ago.

> Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to
>people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an
>observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to
>Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The
>following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was
>posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
>
>Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I Have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge With as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.
>1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
>pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
>21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
>3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
>period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I
>tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
>4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
>female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
>mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
>clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
>5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
>clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
>him myself?
>6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
>abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
>don't agree. Can you settle this? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not
>approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit
>that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there
>some wiggle room here?
>8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
>around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
>How should they die?
>9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
>unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
>10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
>crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
>different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
>and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
>of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't
>we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you Can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
> Jack.

> /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 06:55 AM

Mr. Potato,
There's still time to ammend your post to include something about nude recreation somewhere in your humor at the expense of orthodox Jews.

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 07:19 AM

Mr Scout, there is still time to kiss my entire ***.

As both a Jew and a Homosexual I find the postings in this thread both offensive and sad.
The moderators however seem to think it is acceptable to leave it all on here, although the orginal post has nothing to do with nude recreation. The double standards on view in the forums are astounding and breathtaking but given their origin perhaps not surprising - although I make no excuses for my fellow countrymen's postings, some of which are highly dubious and I suspect are what we, in the country that invented the language that you bandy around in the name of ' freedom' call
"a wind up"
I suspect this will be my final posting to these forums, possibly not by choice. I hope to see some of the saner members on a beach one day. Some of you however I am ashamed to share the planet with.

florida-david

07-02-2003, 07:30 AM

ouch, stab, i feel hurt, ouch, yuk,,,

actually, i am 'technically' a jew, but i can still find humour in the orthodox jewish religion. it is very hard to design a home that is truly kosher, there are rules for everything and there are also just as many ways to get around the rules (like leaving the gas stove on and using it, although the rules clearly do not allow the turning on of modern convenience, it is ok to use them!?!?) i think the orthodox are the extreme, and most jews are more relaxed about their interpretation of the bible.

bertie potato, instead of leaving us, i think a simple apology for going over board would be in order (i've done it, it only hurts for the first couple of posts) and let's move on. no need to get so upset. we like to hear your opinion, even when you get all wacky. also, next time include a picture of your boooty so we know where to kiss /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ....

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 07:32 AM

Bertie,

I can understand why you felt you had to defend yourself, but somehow things seem to escalate when you respond in kind to a two-pronged assault on your beliefs. Not much fun for anyone on this thread. INA overall is a pretty mellow place.

I think the moderator has moved misplaced threads in the past to more appropriate locations. Sometimes the best spot is the recycle bin.

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 07:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
ouch, stab, i feel hurt, ouch, yuk,,,

bertie potato, instead of leaving us, i think a simple apology for going over board would be in order (i've done it, it only hurts for the first couple of posts) and let's move on. no need to get so upset. we like to hear your opinion, even when you get all wacky. also, next time include a picture of your boooty so we know where to kiss /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bubbeleh, do you really think I should turn the other cheek ? Why is my posting more "over board" than any of the others?
Actually, I did send a picture of my tush in once. I can't imaging what happened to it though.

MikeyBear1964

07-02-2003, 07:48 AM

Well -

Riverrat got what he wanted. Responses and attention to a narrowminded and hurtful post which has nothing to do with nudism.

At this point I would love to hear about the old standards: penis size and shaving! LOL

Riverrat, as a gay man who holds a strong belief in a higher power, I do not agree with you. But there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. Or give you some insight. You are beyond that.

In the future, why not stick to topics which are nudism related?

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 07:48 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trailscout:
[QB] Bertie,

I can understand why you felt you had to defend yourself, but somehow things seem to escalate when you respond in kind to a two-pronged assault on your beliefs. Not much fun for anyone on this thread. INA overall is a pretty mellow place.

Errr... so I'm not allowed to respond "in kind" to a "two pronged attack" ? You're on very dangerous ground here.
There are historical precedents.

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 08:21 AM

Bertie,
What I had in mind was not ignoring a flame war, but grab the nearest admin and ask him to either warn the flamer or flush the thread. I have been on this forum long enough to know that you can't fight fire with fire (on a Web forum), but ignoring it doesn't work either.

If there is no moderator, it is total chaos and I don't go to places like that.

The rules of engagement are different on a national level. I won't try to compare.

P.S. On me mum's side I have Jewish roots. That branch of the family once lived in London having escaped from Russia. And the family was safe in America in the 1930's when Europe was a dangerous place for a Jew to be. Whether you are observant or not, there are people who hate Jews and even people like me who are part-Jewish, just for existing. I don't look for logic in it. It's just raw gut-level hate.

bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo

07-02-2003, 08:39 AM

Trail (may I call you that?)

Where as I take your points, this has become sidetracked.
It is not a Jewish thing - it is an anti -gay thing, wrapped up as usual in the "Christian Values" argument.
My response was directly at Riverrats highly offensive first posting. MY "orthodox" posting was just to highlight the danger of ANY extremism, but I do have a particular problem with those extemists who disguise there fascism under a cloak of reason, 'justified' as "God's Word".
And I will speak out against this because it is important. And it is very easy to sigh and go through the 'right' channels.
I have been attacked , verbally abused and spat on in the street both for being a HOMOSEXUAL and JEWISH.

Riverrat seems to have the right to attack me, my partner of 8 years, my friends and Homosexuals everywhere, but I have to say nothing and be decent about it ??
I am not stooping to his level but have tried to illustrate the pernicious nature of hatred fostered by religious extremism - in any form.

Now I'm going off to think some nice thoughts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tidoublegerpb4

07-02-2003, 09:59 AM

I think the point of potato's post, and that e-mail about Dr. Laura in general (which I had read before and thought was brilliant), is that if you are going to use a book, especially the Bible, to support an arguement or point of view, you can't merely pick and choose which passages fit your personal opinions. If you're going to believe that the Bible is the word of God, and you're goign to live your life by the word in The Book, then it's all or nothing. Other wise, you can come across as hypocritical. You can't claim to like 2nd Samuel because it really cuts to the truth of God's feelings on Homosexuality but then say Lev 19:19 is out dated and God doesn't really have an opinion on how many different crops you have in your field. Imagine if people said, "I like Commandments 1 through 8 but 9 and 10 are a little out dated." It's all or nothing.

Me, I choose nothing. I see the Bible as more of a self help book and to take it as fact is problematic at best.

Potato, I hope I wasn't out of bounds on my assesment on your original post.

florida-david

07-02-2003, 11:31 AM

tidoublegirt4444sdf (whatever, crazy name) - i agree with you about the bible. although i have numerous friends who are great people and find strength in it, i do not see how one can justify prejudice towards another with that book. everyone reads what they want out of it. but it is not the only religious book (Koran??). the bible has been rewritten throughout history to apply to that particular time frame. as for me, it is boring reading, time better spent hanging out at the beach.

find strength in whatever you want, just don't try to justify hatred or prejudice with it...

EricNY

07-02-2003, 11:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
tidoublegirt4444sdf (whatever, crazy name) -
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>David don't you remember winnie the pooh T..I..GG...ER

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 11:44 AM

Here's my two bits:
Parts of the Bible are strictly to be observed in the context of the ancient nation of Israel. The Temple Mount is still not in Jewish hands and that is the only place authorized for the sacrifices, etc. During the Diospora, the Jews had no choice but to put the sacrifices on hold and continue other worship in synagogues.

For those who believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, certain Levitical ceremonial requirements are fulfilled at the time of his death.

David son of Jesse loved Jonathan, son of King Saul, but there is no indication that this was anything more than an intense friendship. Since David observed the law of Moses with great fervor, it is highly unlikely that he would disobey it without great angst.

Intense love need not be expressed by genital penetration. It can be like familial love.

Jesus spoke of Eunochs, people who in some cases had ambiguous gender or no sexual desire. These people are to live celibate lives for their entire lifespan, but are not condemned for their orientation or lack of orientation. Unmarried straights are to be celibate until marriage. Even married couples can take a temporary vow of celibacy for times of prayer and fasting.

Naturist Mark

07-02-2003, 05:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:

David son of Jesse loved Jonathan, son of King Saul, but there is no indication that this was anything more than an intense friendship. Since David observed the law of Moses with great fervor, it is highly unlikely that he would disobey it without great angst.

Intense love need not be expressed by genital penetration. It can be like familial love.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>2nd Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

This is David's lament on the death of Jonathan. This is probably the 'gayest' verse of the Bible. David says Jonathan's love for David was greater than that of a woman. Not 'motherly love' or 'brotherly love' or any other sort of familial or fraternal love. But the 'love of a woman'. It requires straining at gnats to see this as anything other than a comparison to the sort of romantic love common between a man and a woman.

David had a history of disobeying God when it suited him, especially where sex was concerned.

By the way, I thought it was hilarious that some people saw that I posted a bible verse and assumed it was anti-gay. Apparently they didn't actually read it or, or couldn't understand it.

-Mark

David77

07-02-2003, 05:35 PM

The "New English Bible", Oxford University Press/Cambridge University Press, 1970, has this translation of 2 Samuel 26,

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
dear and delightful you were to me;
your love for me was wonderful,
surpassing the love of women.

florida-david

07-02-2003, 06:43 PM

oh, this thread has been enlightening, now i understand tidoublegerpb4. thanks guys....

bazookabrown

07-02-2003, 06:49 PM

I'm not sure why it's necessary to stir up anything. I know I'm the only person in the world that thinks exactly the way I do and the same goes for every other person. We are all a part of the fabric that makes up the human experience( I realize the irony - fabric). I believe in "live and let live- we're all in this together". How about accepting others beliefs and not intentionally starting trouble. Nobody needs to be antagonized.

Tulsanuditst918

07-02-2003, 07:27 PM

Wow, It is sad that so many people still believe that homosexuals "choose" to be gay. When did you choose to be Heterosexual instead of gay? was it a hard choice? Did you think "Boy those gay guys sure live the great life! if only I could make myself find other men sexually attractive Id be gay." I believe in God, and as I understand it God doesnt make mistakes, He made some of us Heterosexual and a few of us Homosexual.While, many believe the Bible is the word of God ( Another debate) over time we have come to understand and grow past some of its other "presciptions"... One of many many is that we allow people to earn interst on money.... for nearly a thousand years this was considered a worse "sin" than men having sex with each other.

Bartamus

07-02-2003, 07:35 PM

Suntied: I normally stay out of these non-constructive posts unless they get boring which this one hasn't. However, it's my observation that we could've avoided this whole negative, tired debate about homosexuality had you never watched "the O'Reilly factor". Right wing extremism hasn't helped the naturist movement very much. Just look at Rep. Mark Foley's latest
"inquiry" for example.
Let's all remember why we're here..to promote the nudist/naturist lifestyle!
O.K. Bertiepotato..go ahead and attack!

Bartamus

07-02-2003, 07:46 PM

Oops! Sorry, I meant Riverrat! I get you two confused.

Trailscout

07-02-2003, 07:53 PM

naturistMark,

If you persist in asserting that all deep loves must be comsummated with intercourse in the case of heteros or whatever it is that gays do as a substitute, then consider the Bible passages that speak of loving God more than life itself.

How are you going to have sexual relations with an entity who exists as a spirit only?
(Hint, you can't)

And for the life of me I can't find any way to bring this thread back to the "Fun of Nude Recreation", but here goes: I like playing volleyball in the nude. In the pool its nice and cool, but I don't have the height to spike the ball like I want to. On sand, I do a lot better.

Naturist Mark

07-02-2003, 08:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
naturistMark,

If you persist in asserting that all deep loves must be comsummated with intercourse in the case of heteros or whatever it is that gays do as a substitute, then consider the Bible passages that speak of loving God more than life itself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Persist? When? Where?

I am asserting that David is speaking of romantic love between two men. I never said intercourse, nor does the biblical text.

I would say the love of God for mankind, and of mankind for God is most akin to that between parent and children. But of course that is not by any stretch of the imagination what David is speaking of when he praises Jonathan's love "surpassing the love of women". I don't see how you can possibly read that love as being of the same sort as the love of God. I certainly would never suggest that. Where do such ideas come from?

-Mark