What race or nationality are we?

[R.M. Greenman]

I am just curious about the many people who visit this site and forum.

I consider myself an Irish Native American. I look totally European,fair skinned celtic type with an English sir name. The European blood in me is actully a Heinz 57 of English,Scottish,Irish,German and Italian. The Native American is 1/8 th Cherokee and 1/4 Yaqui.

One Grandmother is 1/2 Cherokee and another grandmother is full blooded Yaqui. She was raised in Mexico and spoke very little english when my Grandfather met her shortly after WWII.

I've seen photos of her when she was young and asked my grandfather how he was able to get such a beauty to marry him, and he told me she couldn't say no in english.lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[R.M. Greenman]

I am just curious about the many people who visit this site and forum.

I consider myself an Irish Native American. I look totally European,fair skinned celtic type with an English sir name. The European blood in me is actully a Heinz 57 of English,Scottish,Irish,German and Italian. The Native American is 1/8 th Cherokee and 1/4 Yaqui.

One Grandmother is 1/2 Cherokee and another grandmother is full blooded Yaqui. She was raised in Mexico and spoke very little english when my Grandfather met her shortly after WWII.

I've seen photos of her when she was young and asked my grandfather how he was able to get such a beauty to marry him, and he told me she couldn't say no in english.lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Trailscout]

Wouldn't it be easier to say what ethnic group we do not derive from?

Here's the list of what I descend from:
Scotland, Ireland, England, France, Switzerland, Latvia, Askenazim Jew, Tagalog Filipino, and possibly some Spanish and Chinese and I am sure that I am leaving out a few countries.

My nationality comes from whatever Adam and Eve were. Technically, I'm French on my dad's side and English on my mother's, with a little Sioux Indian thrown in for good measure. Otherwise I'm an American and proud of it although I had nothing to do with being whatever I am.

[pahjo2]

the u.s.a. is mostly made up of emigrants. the only natives were american indians and there has been studies that suggest that they came to north america across the bering strait. i am also a mixture from a lot of different countries but i'm american first and formost but i don't believe we should forget where our ancestors came from. they are what we are made of and made us what we are today. god bless the U.S.A.

stay nude and stay happy

[Stevedaoust]

What Race am I? Human.....

[missouriboy]

If Human is a race, could you give an example or two of the races that are other than Human? Thanks in advance.

[Stevedaoust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
If Human is a race, could you give an example or two of the races that are other than Human? Thanks in advance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Easy, Feline and canine race.
I try to unlearn the race thing, as I did the 'hide your body thing', as much as I can. I feel that this planet needs to start realising that WE are on this planet and it's time that we knock down these borders we have to get ready for the time when we find the others that aren't from here on this planet. Sure I may be star-treking a bit but what if.....and why not?
Whoopie Goldburg once said in an interview, when referred to as African-american. She stop the interviewer and said, "No, I'm an AMERICAN." THIS is the differance I'm looking for.(smile)

[Trailscout]

Everyday speech is often very inprecise.
All of humanity can interbreed freely, the usual definition of a species. Race is a population of humans or a population within a plant or animal species with a set of observable physical traits that distinguish it from other bloodlines.

In the case of humans, rather than sharp boundaries, gradation between the "races" has existed for thousands of years. In Egypt and other parts of northeast Africa are individuals with physical features that are somewhere between black and white ethnic type. Likewise parts of Russia have Caucasians with an increasing resemblance to the East Asian racial type as you go from west to east. There may always have been populations that have never clearly fit into one stereotypical racial group.

Africa's orginal inhabitants almost universally have dark skin due to the need to adapt to strong tropical sun, but other than that, there is considerable variation among "black" Africans by population group, much more so than Caucasian and Asian races. A casual observer could easily tell the difference between a Tutsi, Pygmy, Hottentot, Ethiopian, or West African person. There are many more biochemical differences that are not as easily observed.
One could easily argue that black Africa alone has four or five major races of mankind.

Pacific Island blacks (Melanesians) superficially resemble some black Africans, but when you look at their blood type and body chemistry, they are as different from black Africans as Europeans are.

Some anthropologists tried to classify the Ainu in Hokkaido Japan as a race of caucasians, because of a few outward similarities, but in recent years there seems to be more justification for including them in the Australoid race, an ethnic group that was once widespread in the far East, but now is largely confined to the Australian outback. The Ainu have much fairer complexions than the Australian aborigines, but in Hokkaido, there is much less sunlight and strong selective pressure led to a people with a lighter complexion, but who were otherwise genetically similar to Australoids in the tropics.

Races exist, but they have blurry boundaries and many of us don't fit into a neat category. We are all human.

We all have a common ancestry that can be traced back a few thousand years, not millions. Only the Neanderthal is separated from us by millions of years by most estimates. There is a hot debate as to whether Neanderthals and our type of human could breed and if so, did they breed. Some people speculate that traces of Neanderthal genes exist in some European, Eskimo and Australian aborigine people. Others say that the common traits could be explained in other ways and that Neanderthal was not merely a different race, but an entirely different species from Homo sapiens.

[mj]

then there is horse race, dog race...isn't that what they do with greyhounds and whippets(the dog not the car) if it were whippet the car then it would be an automobile race, which is what nascar does isn't it. then there is the 3 legged race which makes it appearance at picnics,

[Jochanaan]

Since someone asked the question, my ancestry is North European, mostly English and Danish. But what does it matter? I didn't have anything to do with my ancestors or my birth country. I might as well be proud of my blue eyes or my gray beard.

Racial pride is a slippery slope toward enslavement and genocide.

Remember, the most productive strains of corn are hybrids. Vive les diff?rences!

[hw]

I have the look of my "white" ancestors I consider myself a Heinz 57 also. I have two sisters who have fair skin like me. I also have one sister and one brother who have dark hair and skin. (Must be the Cherokee). And yes, we all have the same parents. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mj...do you think men are better at three-legged races than women? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[shãybare]

Of course we are, HW and quit calling me mj.

[David77]

Apparently Whoopie Goldberg dislikes being referred to as "African-American" instead of "American". I agree with her thinking.

Another thought is that her ancestry, like most all "African-Americans", is a combination of European and African, so it makes sense to start acknowledging the racial mix in most all of persons who call themselves "African-Americans", instead of merely declaring that one is "African-American".

[hw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shaybare:
Of course we are, HW and quit calling me mj. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry Shaybare....butt I didn't call you mj. Must have been the voice of confusion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[LeeR49]

It looks like this discussion has taken on a mild debate quality, centering on the question, Is it productive to define and discuss racial differences? As a missiologist, I maintain that it certainly is. Racial and cultural diversity enriches everyone, and celebrating that diversity allows each of us to appreciate and enjoy our own cultural history while also learning about those whose culture and life experiences are not like ours.

If, on the other hand, we try to ignore or even erase cultural distictives, then those who are in the minority suffer the greatest loss. All cultural traits blend together to form one "common" culture which is not truly common, but is dominated by the traits of the majority culture. Cultural dominance helps no one, and often leads to the subjugation of minority cultures.

So, Whoopie, yes, you are as American as any of us who reside in the US of A. But you also owe much of what you are to African culture and race. Celebrate it, woman!!

As for me, I'm part of the dominant American culture -- a Western European melting pot of Scandahoovian, Dutch, English, and who knows what else?

[David77]

Celebrate any racial, ethnic, national background, if you wish.

I enjoy going to the enormous St. Patrick's Day Parade and then going to an Irish pub and there listen to music groups from Ireland (although they sing their songs at too slow a tempo for my ears) and enjoy other ethnic groups.
I enjoy our German Octoberfest, for example. German residents from our "sister-city" in Germany enjoy our American style German Octoberfest. We appreciate the music and food, and we celebrate and appreciate the contribution to this land which each group has, and is, making.

At a rather recent family reunion I met some second and third cousins who are part "black", in reality light brown, who do not wish to deny that they have some "European ancestry", and this is the way I (we) like it - and maybe it is the way Woopie Goldberg feels.

My ancestors came from five north European nations - mostly I am of English ancestry.

I am merely saying, that, in reality, African-Americans should not hesitate to mention that they are ALSO European in ancestry, if that be the case.

[shãybare]

Very good, HW. I just thought I'd throw a wrench into the monkey and see if your voices would catch it. Although I don't know what your voices would do with a monkey.

[hw]

I agree with David77....be proud of who you are and what you are! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shaybare:
Very good, HW. I just thought I'd throw a wrench into the monkey and see if your voices would catch it. Although I don't know what your voices would do with a monkey. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Shaybare be careful where you throw those wrenches! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You'll have the animal rights activists all over your donkey. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Also it depends on the monkey! The good monkey gets a hug, the bad monkey gets spanked! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Or vise-versa. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stevedaoust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
If Human is a race, could you give an example or two of the races that are other than Human? Thanks in advance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Easy, Feline and canine race.
I try to unlearn the race thing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Easy? Cats and Dogs are different Races? Wrong!

Cats, dogs, and yes, Humans, are SPECIES, not Races. Different species cannot interbreed, but different RACES and BREEDS can and DO interbreed. Human is a SPECIES, not a RACE. See Merriam-Webster:

SPECIES
(1) : an individual or kind belonging to a biological species

RACE
a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type

So, when cats interbreed with dogs, the produced offspring is a ??????? WHAT?

And when humans interbreed with alligators, the produced offspring is a ???????? WHAT?

Different SPECIES cannot interbreed, but different RACES (or BREEDS) within a SPECIES can interbreed. This is what defines the difference between Species and Race. Therefore Human is a Species, not a Race. Race is subordinate to Species, and consists of Asian, Negro, Inuit, Caucasian, and others.

You have stated that you wish to UNLEARN these facts, which is your right to do if you wish. But to enter a discussion of this sort with such personal denial is analogous to entering a debate among mathematicians (who accept simple truth), just to say you disagree that 2+2=4. Input such as this just isn't useful at all.

I mean, heck, if written language doesn't actually have meaning, then what good is it?

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
Different SPECIES cannot interbreed, but different RACES (or BREEDS) within a SPECIES can interbreed. This is what defines the difference between Species and Race. Therefore Human is a Species, not a Race. Race is subordinate to Species, and consists of Asian, Negro, Inuit, Caucasian, and others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It turns out that Race is not a scientific concept. There are not 'races' of humankind, there are just ethnic groupings.

Why the distinction? Because the genetic diversity between members of one ethnic group are equal to or exceed those between members of different ethnic groups. Absent information about a person's ethnic heritage race identification is made merely on superficial aspects of outward appearance which account for very little in individual genetic variance.

Humans have very little genetic variance overall in our genomes. The few minor details that typically identify 'race' are even more tiny and insignicant compared to the other aspects of variance.

Unlike domestic dogs, there are not 'breeds' of humans. To equal the genetic variance between breeds of dogs we would have to include chimpanzees, bonobos, orangs and gorillas as 'human breeds'.

An excellent study of the failing concept of race as science, particularly with respect to intelligence, and written for the layman is the late Stephen J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393314251/qid=1065789478/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-7001596-8127317?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

-Mark

[Trailscout]

Mark,

You just contradicted yourself!

Some of the examples you gave from the great apes are clearly not the same species: gorillas cannot be bred with chimps to produce offspring for instance. All breeds of dogs ARE one species and can interbreed freely (except for mechanical limitations caused by size difference).

The major racial types of humans reflect the outcome of reproductive isolation, and genetic drift in response to selective pressure by markedly different climatic zones.

We are all still one species, but any animal or plant breeder would refer to "strains" or "varieties" to describe what we commonly call the "races of man". There is nothing unscientific about describing strains of an organism that are more resistant to a certain disease, more resistant to strong sunlight, etc. It's done all the time and has great utility in agronomy and animal husbandry.

Varietal differences in humans have given local populations a survival advantage.

In South America, the Spanish invaders never successfully adapted to the mountain climate of Peru and even today, native Americans dominate the highlands and those with European ancestry tend to be prevalent only in the lowlands.

In other years in the coastal southeastern US, malaria was rampant in the summer months. Those who were heterozygous for the sickle cell trait (usually Afro-Americans) generally survived malaria, while Causasians (other than those with Mediterranean heritage) generally did not survive malaria epidemics. The few whites who did live near the mosquito-infested coastal marshes often escaped to the hills during mosquito season, leaving the plantation under the watchcare of a black (malaria-tolerant) overseer.

I am not saying that it is ill-advised for different ethnic groups to marry and have children. I am simply saying that what are commonly called races arose for a good reason and it is scientifically useful to examine the differences and similarities among us.

In north Georgia, many so-called whites actually have substantial Cherokee Indian heritage and I think we physically are better off for it for too many reasons to detail. Too bad that Cherokee culture has been widely forgotten. We would do well to learn from their centuries of experience living close to the land in this region.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Mark,

You just contradicted yourself!

Some of the examples you gave from the great apes are clearly not the same species: gorillas cannot be bred with chimps to produce offspring for instance. All breeds of dogs ARE one species and can interbreed freely (except for mechanical limitations caused by size difference). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually not.

Interfertility is a factor, but not the determining factor in speciation. Lions and tigers can interbreed (but do not under normal circumstances) yet they are separate species. Domestic dogs can interbreed with wolves and coyotes, yet are different species.

There are many cases where subsets of the same species cannot interbreed, you mentioned one - domestic dog breeds that are so disparate in size so as to preclude success.

However, my point was never about interfertility, there is no question about the interfertility of all humans no matter what putative 'race' they belong to. It was about the fact that the natural genetic variation between individuals within any putative racial classification is greater than between exemplars of wholely different racial classifications.

What that means is: If you are a Kalahari Bushman, it is entirely likely that you are a closer genetic match to a Swede than to your Bushman next door neighbor (so long as he is not a close relative). Yes, you do share some Bushman characteristics with your neighbor, but the overal genetic diversity between you two is as great as between any two unrelated individuals on the planet.

Putative racial classifications are based on ethnic identifications and superficial appearance, but they do not represent genetically distinct populations. All humans are too closely related for there to be any truly distinct genetic subsets. You can identify a few characteristics, but they are swamped by all the others, and soon you are just talking about family groupings - not racial groups.

With respect to my comments about the great apes, I was not suggesting that they are all the same species, only pointing out that they are all more closely related to each other and to homo sapiens sapiens than the various dog breeds are to each other. If 'race' equals 'breed', then our fellow great apes are more closely related than breeds, so must be considered among the races of man. There are a few heretic anthropologists out there who assert that the great apes should be catagorized within the 'homo' genus - but certainly not as racial groups within homo sapiens sapiens.

Race is not a scientific classification in humankind, it is just an inadequate stand in for ethnic groupings. Race IS a social construct, one which we are usually better off without.

-Mark

[Trailscout]

Mark,

Actually lions and tigers are not interfertile. And for genetic reasons at that. The genes that govern their social behavior and habitat preference prevent them from crossing paths unless habitat has been artificially reduced by human action.

With many species of birds, the male could inseminate the female, but because their genes program them to different mating responses or different breeding times, they are essentially genetically incompatible unless we find some way to artificially inseminate them.

And I suspect that coyotes, wolves and dogs have enough differences in habitat and mating habits(due to genes that control these behaviors), that they exist as distinct species.

The Linnean system of identifying species and genus is a useful tool for helping us categorize life, but there are some gray areas where the lumpers and splitters of the taxonomic world go to war.

I have no problem with the concept of races or strains of humanity. We don't get all huffy and apoplectic about race when we discuss Man's best friend: A long-haired dachsund is distinct from a short-haired and a standard collie is distinct from a Shetland Sheepdog. We should appreciate the diversity, not pretend it doesn't exist.

So do races matter? Well, maybe a little if you spend lots of time nude outdoors.
If we abandon technology and let natural selection resume, we would likely see new races emerge, each suited to their local climate. It would be helpful to have a body that is reasonably adapted to the local climate, but it is not a deal-breaker if that's not the case.

Modern or even primitive technology allows people of virtually any ethnicity to occupy any spot on the planet with little selective disadvantage.

What matters the most is cultural heritage. Is your culture sufficiently adapted to your habitat that you could live in the wild in a sustainable manner?

Cultural oblivion and assimilation is a tragedy.
Nothing is sadder than a rootless de-tribalized person wandering aimlessly in an anonymous city.

So what do you do if you are already detribalized? Find a tribe to belong to.
I have undertaken to learn Cherokee ways. I have also benefitted from the traditional skills of Southern Appalachian mountain folk. I am not at all Cherokee nor am I 100 percent Caucasian, but
frankly neither Cherokee nor mountain whites could survive a winter here without clothing, fire and at least the rudiments of culture.
My goal is to adopt the cultures of local people who have lived on this land a long time and know how to take care of it and survive.

So maybe it is more helpful to think of me as a southern Appalachian tribesman rather than having to pick my allegience from one of all the manifold nations from which I descend.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Mark,

Actually lions and tigers are not interfertile. And for genetic reasons at that. The genes that govern their social behavior and habitat preference prevent them from crossing paths unless habitat has been artificially reduced by human action.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But in fact, lions and tigers are genetically interfertile. That doesn't make them the same species. That's all I was saying.

Have you noticed that every time you give an example of racial characteristics it is actually an example of an ethnic variation?

Race is meaningless as a scientific taxonomy.

Localized ethnic variations are not meaningless, but are not necessarily race based - the example you gave of the sickle-cell allele which confers malaria resistance is prevalent in small subgroups of both caucasoid and negroid populations {but not in tropical east asian populations}. It is not a racial characteristic, but it is in the normal range of human variation which is more prevalent in some familial (ethnic) groups.

Homework:
What DNA Says About Human Ancestry?and Bigotry (http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/what_dna_says_about_human/)
Do Races Differ? Not Really, DNA Shows (http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/082200sci-genetics-race.html)
<A HREF="http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/5846064.htm" TARGET=_blank>DNA evidence shows race doesn't exist
</A>

[tarsus]

well i might as well get on here to /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i am
english desent. my name traces back to the time and court of king richard. now before you /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
richard was not the king of robin hood movies
he was kinda stupid as kings go. if you want to know more ask and maybe i will tell /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
i was born in the u.s. and have never been to u.k. would like to go. my childern are a melting pot,english/irish/cherokee. their great grandmother was full cherokee. the irish/cherokee comes from their mother.

[Abiqua]

My ancestry is mostly Scottish, with a large amount of German ancestry as well. There are a few branches that go to France, England and Ireland as well, with one somewhat legendary line that supposedly goes back to medieval Denmark.

[NoodJuggler]

http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Wave%20Hello.gif Hi...Human..Human Race..Nudist.. = One screwed up person..HEHEHEHEH Oh..Did I say Flesh colored? http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/ROFL.gif

Party on Garth
http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Party.gif

[tarsus]

funny m.j. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif where did you get that graemlin at?