feelings on gender balancing

[Tenchi]

What are your feelings on gender balancing at nudist actitivies? Truthefully I don't like it. Just because their may be more men than women, or more women than men, I don't think someone of a certain gender should have to be excluded for a long time until things even out. Heck I've been to activities in which there were a lot more men than women, but the women were never picked on or made to feel uncomfortable.

[Tenchi]

What are your feelings on gender balancing at nudist actitivies? Truthefully I don't like it. Just because their may be more men than women, or more women than men, I don't think someone of a certain gender should have to be excluded for a long time until things even out. Heck I've been to activities in which there were a lot more men than women, but the women were never picked on or made to feel uncomfortable.

"Gender balancing" is just a fancy phrase to replace "discrimination". They're discriminating against unmarried men and supposedly unmarried women, as well as married men whose wives won't go with them.

[Rik]

I think it's quite a complex subject. The rationale for gender balancing appears to be that if venues were open to single males (and that's what we're really talking about) then it would attract more single males (because there's not that many alternative places they can go to) and would therefore accelerate the male to female imbalance as not only would more males be attracted but females would be more likely to stay away so that venures would eventually become overrun with males. The sites always had a good gender balance with only a handful of single males who, if my own experience is anything to go by, would have been made equally welcome.

If there is a general view that gender balance is a good thing then by definition that view would also be shared by a good proportion of single males so that if single males go to venues populated only by single males they would tend to drift away because the venue would not meet their aspiration of gender balance. So as single males stay away from venues which do not have the appropriate gender balance then more females would, in theory, be attracted which would have the effect of evening out the genders.

I can't speak for the US but my experience in Europe is that, apart from the UK, there is not generally the discrimination which Jon-Marc speaks of and this appears to have the effect of creating a good gender balance. At least that is the experience I had during the summer when, as a lone traveller, I stayed at 7 or 8 naturist campsites in Holland, Germany and Denmark. At none of these places was my solo status an issue and even when phoning ahead I was never asked whether I was alone.

In the UK there is more of a tendency to discriminate which means that those few places which don't are more attractive to single males. However there was a discussion on uk.rec.naturist recently where an organizer of naturist events said that she often had enquiries from single males interested in attending her (non-discriminatory) events but in the event very few actullay turned up. To me this suggests that if the gender balance is allowed to balance itself naturally there is no evidence to support the theory that venues would be dominated by single males.

But even if such places were to become overrun by single males and leaving aside the issue of whether or not clubs are right to invoke a discriminatory policy, it begs the question "should the rights of women and couples take priority over the rights of single males?" To me, logically, I can see no reason why they should and therefore I support the concept that there should be no discrimination against single males even though, as a sometimes single male myself, I prefer to go to places where there is a mix of genders.

Rik

Personally, I couldn't care less whether a resort is family-oriented, mostly women, mostly or all men as long as the men don't try to come onto me.

I go to the resort to enjoy being nude and doing things I enjoy while nude. I'm not there to pick anyone up, or even to come onto anyone. I'm not there for any reason other than to enjoy my own nudity in a way that I can't do at home. Of course, I prefer to have other people there since talking to myself doesn't get any response. I usually avoid the children and teens, although I have talked to some and even played pool with one young boy. His parents kept checking on us.

I read so much here about single women feeling threatened by single males that I stay away from them too as much as possible. That leaves only the single males or couples that I will talk to. I figure a woman who has her husband or boyfriend with her won't feel threatened by me.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
Of course, I prefer to have other people there since talking to myself doesn't get any response. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm! I often find that talking to myself is the only way to have an intelligent coinversation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I read so much here about single women feeling threatened by single males that I stay away from them too as much as possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that's a mistake. Surely just talking isn't the same as coming on to them so why shouldn't you spend time with them without them feeling threatened?

Rik

[anblopc98321]

Please tell me why being a single male,when I went to a nudist resort this past summer, I was told that I would be watched very carefully.
I am new to nudism and could not understand this statement. Do they think all single male's are perverts? I didn't go back because I was not sure if I wanted to be watched that closely. And I would like to become an active nudist if I were accepted as someone who likes the lifestyle and wants to participate. Can this be answered? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anblopc98321:
Please tell me why being a single male,when I went to a nudist resort this past summer, I was told that I would be watched very carefully.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's the resort managers you need to ask, not this forum where, at best, all you will get is assumptions.

Rik

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
...I couldn't care less... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hooray, there is another thinking person who states the phrase correctly!

Okay, back on topic now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Rik, I think that if nudism ever becomes as popular, and as accepted as a family activity, in the U.S. as it is in Europe, then gender balance requirements will diminish in direct proportion to the increased acceptance. Right now, the balancing thing is just a response to cope with the reality of unbalanced interest in nudism over here.

I dunno, does that make sense? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
Right now, the balancing thing is just a response to cope with the reality of unbalanced interest in nudism over here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The point I was making is that the 'response' is flawed in that removing the restriction on single males is, in my view and based on my experience, unikely to result in naturists venues being overrun with single males.

Another point is that if there is an 'unbalanced interest in nudism' then why should that not be reflected in naturist venues. I can't think of any other leisure activity where an unbalanced gender mix would cause prblems so why should naturists have to put up with it?

Rik

[shãybare]

Excellent point, Rik.

[Outlaw]

Good Morning--

I just woke up--haven't had enough coffee yet but I thought I'd put in my two cents into this thread. I believe that gender balancing is nothing more than a resort saying it doesn't want to allow all nudists a place to enjoy nudism. By doing so resorts are killing themselves and in the long run are going to discourage nudism instead of promoting it.

Big Mac

Rik,

I've never been any good with knowing what to say to women--particularly at a nudist resort. I'm always afraid that they will take my friendliness wrong when all I want to do is talk.

Anblopc,

I was told the same thing when I joined a nudist club (not resort). One old male member said, "You will be watched." That really made me feel good to know that because I was alone that I wasn't trusted even though they did let me join.

Missouriboy,

I've never understood why so many people don't know that when they say "COULD care less" that they're actually saying that they CARE.

Big Mac

I agree that owners of nudist venues don't seem to care if they grow or not. The resort in my city is unfriendly toward everyone. Everyone in Battle Creek who has been there that I mention the resort to has said they, even as a couple, were made to feel unwelcome there. Those who haven't been there say that they heard that they were unfriendly.

Do nudists welcome ALL people who are interested in nudism, or just married couples? Do we who are not married due to divorce (as in my case), being widowed, not yet finding the right person, choosing not to marry, or simply not liking women, feel welcome? It depends on the nudist club or resort. Some say "Singles are not welcome here." Some use "gender balance" to justify turning singles away. A few places actually welcome everyone equally. Turtle Lake Resort in Michigan, and Serendipity Park in Georgia are two that are friendly, although some people at Turtle Lake did tell me they agreed with "gender balancing".

[Outlaw]

I have been a nudist for about 20 years and I've only been to a few "resorts or clubs" so I have a somewhat narrow background. I've been to Swallows quite a few years ago and most recently DeAnza Springs in San Diego county. I tried to get into Glen Eden in Riverside county about 6 years ago. I've also been to Faywood Hot Springs in New Mexico and Eldorado Hot Springs in Arizona.

Of all of these, I would really recommend DeAnza Springs. It is spacious (500 acres) The RV and camping spaces are HUGE and the prices are reasonable. They are friendly and try to make you fit in. Of course, these are just my impressions.

Big Mac

--------------------------
I need to take more time to put FUN back into my life!!!!

[Jochanaan]

I voted "against gender balancing," since I had to choose one or the other of the option. I would like to see a reasonable balance between men, women, and children; but there seem to be ways to achieve that without quotas or restrictions.

The Denver club I have visited does not restrict membership or visitors. Its leaders feel that the spirit of a group is more effective in deterring perverts and gawkers than restrictions. From what I've seen, it works. This club is a fine example of how to avoid the problems associated with gender imbalance without resorting to restrictive policies.

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I've never understood why so many people don't know that when they say "COULD care less" that they're actually saying that they CARE. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I seem to recall that when I was a child I never heard "could care less" for "couldn't care less." But gradually the legendary American carelessness in speech took over and the "n't" just got lost.

Another example of this carelessness is "head over heels." A hundred years ago it was, more accurately, "heels over head."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Big Mac

I agree that owners of nudist venues don't seem to care if they grow or not. The resort in my city is unfriendly toward everyone. Everyone in Battle Creek who has been there that I mention the resort to has said they, even as a couple, were made to feel unwelcome there. Those who haven't been there say that they heard that they were unfriendly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That description sounds like some of the old churches I've been in! They've got their nice group of people; everyone gets along (or doesn't get along) with everyone else; they've established behavior patterns with which they're comfortable. Why should they reach out to new people who would probably mess things up?

But what will happen when all the members die or have to go to nursing homes? Those churches and nudist clubs will quietly pass out of existence while groups who embrace new Christians or nudists will thrive.

[Bob S.]

Gender balancing is more of a response to outside (textile) society. The places that practice it are afraid of what may happen if they stop it. As much as they preach about nudism not equalling sex, and that coed nudity is fine, with that balancing, they are suggesting that is the rule.

And watching newcomers is very important, but I do wonder if they say that to new couples/families. This is the same attitude that you have when someone new moves next door to you or someone new is hired at your work. You keep an eye on them.

But as I have said many times, there is a community mindset at nudist parks. Everyone knows everyone else, except for the newcomers. They are going to be scrutinized the most.

Now, "do they think that all single makes are perverts?" No. If they did, there would be no single males admitted. But they do have the need to watch all newcomers, as I have said. And sadly, they have bought into the paranoia that there is a pervert around every corner. And since most of the worst pervs are men, they will be scrutinized unless they have proven themselves by either being an active nudist there or at other parks, or, and this is the most ridiculous one, has a wife or a girlfriend. As if that is proof of morality. Yes folks, having a female around your arm makes you look more trustworthy.

Bob S.

[Outlaw]

Jochanaan-- You are not quoting me, you are answering a reply from Jon-Mark. I live Arizona, not Michigan.

Big Mac

I believe (though I can't prove it) that some nudist venues DO think that NO single male can be trusted, which is why they turn ALL of them away. Fortunately, not all nudist venues do that, and there are some friendly places. I mentioned three where I've been.

I also believe it's a known fact that many perverts are married. They hide behind their respectability as a married man, while molesting children or raping women, or trying as one m,an I spoke to at a resort who was trying to get a woman to rent a cabin for the night with him. When I was married, I NEVER once thought about committing adultery, although my "wife" had no problem doing that--many times, and she told me she would not change.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
And watching newcomers is very important, but I do wonder if they say that to new couples/families. This is the same attitude that you have when someone new moves next door to you or someone new is hired at your work. You keep an eye on them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to suggest that it is OK - indeed important - to assume that anyone you don't know (whether at work or wherever) should be automatically suspected of being a potential danger to you and others.

My philosophy, which has worked well for me all my life because it's the way I would like to be treated by others, is trust everyone until their behaviour gives you reason to distrust them.

Rik

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik:
My philosophy, which has worked well for me all my life because it's the way I would like to be treated by others, is trust everyone until their behaviour gives you reason to distrust them.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good! That's been my philosophy too, and it seems to work. Any relationship--between married couples, between business associates, between nations--must be based on some level of trust. Otherwise you might just as well withdraw to a mountain retreat, build walls around it, and become a hermit. But how easily we forget the necessity of trust.

Rik,

I agree with that and practice it myself. However, the owners of nudist venues don't. They judge men strictly on their marital status alone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[AussieBeachBoy]

I've never been to a private nudist venue myself but at the public ones I've been to, there has always been a predominance of males. That seems to be the case at this board too. I'd take a wild guess that overall there seems to be a larger number of male naturists than females.

If that's the case, why discriminate?

I do know from some other 'male dominated' activities that I participate in that females sometimes feel intimidated by the male presence. This is not because the men do anything specific to the females, just that it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Some of these activities run special "women only" events. In my view, if anything this just perpetuates the problem. Women tend to gravitate towards the 'women only' events and you get even more gender imbalance at the mixed events, making the women who do go potentially even more uncomfortable.

My preference would be not to push for artificial 'gender balancing' but rather to think of some way to make women feel more welcome in the more male-oriented environments. No particular bright ideas about how this may be done though, aside from stuff like organised social events.

I see from their schedule of events.."The Sequoians" naturist group in Castro Valley CA is having a homemade dessert contest along with their potlucks....would that attract more females or just more of us males who like to whip things up in the kitchen ? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Outdoorbare

Being a better than average cook and baker, I would enjoy anything to do with either of those.

[Bob S.]

What I was saying is that trust is earned. I am not saying that you should expect the worst in others, which I don't; however, you should't just blindly trust someone else whom you don't know either. That stranger has to earn your trust before you allow them into your fold.

Bob S.

That's very true, Bob. However, some nudist venues won't even give singles the chance to prove that they can be trusted. Some people tend to trust too easily. Others don't trust anyone at all. Neither of those is good. Everyone should at least be given the chance to prove themselves one way or the other. I agree with watching people you're not sure about, but I see no reason to make someone KNOW they're not trusted by telling them they will be watched.

[aunaturelone]

I think gender balance is ultimately a marketing decision. If a club wants to sell to a specific niche market, say traditional families with children or Christian singles or swinging omnisexuals or penile pierced gay bikers they set up their admission criteria accordingly. Clubs who go for gender balance may do so using differing methods and may do so for different reasons.

There are clubs who happily admit singles as long as the target balance is maintained. There are clubs who only admit families without regard to gender balance but end up balanced simply because most families have both genders.

American women feel more threatened than men in a clothing optional evironment. You can argue all you want about whether they should but the fact is they do. I'll take it a step further and say on average, women feel more threatened than men in almost any strange environment. That includes driving in a strange town, hiking in the woods, a party where they don't know many people, etc.

Now imagine that party full of strangers where they are mostly men. Imagine you're a textile impaired woman whose experiences through life of supposedly "social" nudity were entirely sexual, where every guy you've ever met who wanted to get naked saw that as one more step towards geting laid. There are an enormous number of people out there of both genders who will reinforce the notion of "nudity = sex" at every opportunity. 5 nude women and 27 nude guys is not reassuring to a newbie female.

Then compbine this with women comparing themselves to the latest Plyboy centerfold or movie actress who has looked 25 for the last 20 years of her life. The ones who aren't scared off by the possibility of fighting off oversexed Lotharios without the psychological and physical defense of clothing may well be frightened off by the thought of being a member of a small minority in a strange environment. Or they may fear they'll be compared with the commercial ideal and fall short. They may even be doing the comparison themselves.

Having an equal number of woman around does a couple of things for you. You aren't under seige by guys (who may be innocently enough) trying to strike up your accquaintence. The presence of other women lets you compare yourself to them instead of an ideal. You don't feel inadequate for being less then perfect because you are surrounded by less than perfect women.

Having plenty of other women about makes you feel less freakish and unusual. It gives you a clique to fall back on, a security zone you can venture forth from when the novelty of the nudity wears off. There's a lot of appeal to just hanging out with the girls. That Lothario isn't quite as threatening to a group as he is to an individual.

Having some kind of near parity between the genders just makes the experince much more welcome for the newbie female. If you are a single male and can't get into a local club, you probably aren't alone. This may be the opportunity for you to start an informal travel club of your own. I bet the local club who won't take single males would be happy to have a place to refer all those males to that they can't accept.

I remember as an 18 yo college student in MI, I couldn't find a club anywhwere that would even let me tour the facility, let alone join. Then I moved to CA and there was a naturist club right on campus with nothing but single teenaged and young adult members (about a 2-1 M-F ratio). Didn't even have to be a student to join. That was 25 years ago.

Recently I organized an informal group near where I live. The internet is great for that sort of thing. You may just have to look harder or start your own.

[bravebare]

I have noticed a lot of clubs have quotas or
rules of gender balencing. I thought nudeism
was being free. Free of clothes and restrictions.
Who cares if there are more men than women or
vise versa.

Bravebare,

Apparently someone cares, or there wouldn't BE gender balancing. I believe it's mainly the married men who don't want single men around their wives, and/or single women who feel threatened by too many men around.

Why is it that the only place you have gender balancing is among people who claim to be so "accepting", nudists?

[anblopc98321]

Well I can understand that women feel threatened when outnumbered by men. That is just a natural instinct. I can understand about fairness also.
But here is a good example :
At a nudist colony in southwest Pennsylvania a man from Virginia was arrested for videotaping children. The man was married, a father, and a coach for a girls soccer team.
So how did this man get in and not only bring in a video cam and use it?
Maybe instead try individual balance,not married or single balance. Do keep the women and men who are serious and sincere about the lifestyle. But weed out the ones who are not.
This man was admitted because he was married and had kids right? So the question is how do you weed out the good from the bad? What do you take into consideration? These are just questions that come up.
From what the news media said he had pics and video tapes found in his home in Virginia.
Good luck.

Getting into a nudist resort with a camera is no problem. They don't search your car to make sure you don't have one. Turtle Lake Resort will allow you to bring a camera to take photos of yourself, but only if a staff member is with you when you take them. I had a male staff member offer to take ophotos of me with my camera at two different resorts, although it's digital and I could do it myself. I had someone take a photo of me at one resort, and it was the worst photo of the bunch. The ones I took of myself were a lot better.