Different Perspective on New Orleans

[NaturalJudge]

The following article is from an African American preacher and author who says what no white person could ever say and not be accused of racism. He feels that African-American leaders need to step up and demand that the African-American communities do more for themselves. Sadly, perspectives such as this are seldom heard as the popular media propogates 'their' side of the story.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 -Moral poverty cost blacks in New Orleans - 1:00 a.m. Eastern

By: Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, African American Preacher and author.

Say a hurricane is about to destroy the city you live in. Two questions:

What would you do?


What would you do if you were black?


Sadly, the two questions don't have the same answer.

To the first: Most of us would take our families out of that city quickly to protect them from danger. Then, able-bodied men would return to help others in need, as wives and others cared for children, elderly, infirm and the like.

For better or worse, Hurricane Katrina has told us the answer to the second question. If you're black and a hurricane is about to destroy your city, you'll probably wait for the government to save you.

This was not always the case. Prior to 40 years ago, such a pathetic performance by the black community in a time of crisis would have been inconceivable. The first response would have come from black men. They would take care of their families, bring them to safety, and then help the rest of the community. Then local government would come in.

No longer. When 75 percent of New Orleans residents had left the city, it was primarily immoral, welfare-pampered blacks that stayed behind and waited for the government to bail them out. This, as we know, did not turn out good results.

Enter Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan. Jackson and Farrakhan laid blame on "racist" President Bush. Farrakhan actually proposed the idea that the government blew up a levee so as to kill blacks and save whites. The two demanded massive governmental spending to rebuild New Orleans, above and beyond the federal government's proposed $60 billion. Not only that, these two were positioning themselves as the gatekeepers to supervise the dispersion of funds. Perfect: Two of the most dishonest elite blacks in America, "overseeing" billions of dollars. I wonder where that money will end up.

Of course, if these two were really serious about laying blame on government, they should blame the local one. Responsibility to perform legally and practically fell first on the mayor of New Orleans. We are now all familiar with Mayor Ray Nagin the black Democrat who likes to yell at President Bush for failing to do Nagin's job. The facts, unfortunately, do not support Nagin's wailing. As the Washington Times puts it, "recent reports show [Nagin] failed to follow through on his own city's emergency-response plan, which acknowledged that thousands of the city's poorest residents would have no way to evacuate the city."

One wonders how there was "no way" for these people to evacuate the city. We have photographic evidence telling us otherwise. You've probably seen it by now the photo showing 2,000 parked school buses, unused and underwater. How much planning does it require to put people on a bus and leave town, Mayor Nagin?

Instead of doing the obvious, Mayor Nagin (with no positive contribution from Democratic Gov. Kathleen Blanco, the other major leader vested with responsibility to address the hurricane disaster) loaded remaining New Orleans residents into the Superdome and the city's convention center. We know how that plan turned out.

About five years ago, in a debate before the National Association of Black Journalists, I stated that if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years. The audience, shall we say, disagreed with me strongly. Now I have to disagree with me. I gave blacks too much credit. It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

President Bush is not to blame for the rampant immorality of blacks. Had New Orleans' black community taken action, most would have been out of harm's way. But most were too lazy, immoral and trifling to do anything productive for themselves.

All Americans must tell blacks this truth. It was blacks' moral poverty not their material poverty that cost them dearly in New Orleans. Farrakhan, Jackson, and other race hustlers are to be repudiated for they will only perpetuate this problem by stirring up hatred and applauding moral corruption. New Orleans, to the extent it is to be rebuilt, should be remade into a dependency-free, morally strong city where corruption is opposed and success is applauded. Blacks are obligated to help themselves and not depend on the government to care for them. We are all obligated to tell them so.


The Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson is founder and president of BOND, the Brotherhood Organization of A New Destiny, and author of "Scam: How the Black Leadership Exploits Black America."

[NaturalJudge]

The following article is from an African American preacher and author who says what no white person could ever say and not be accused of racism. He feels that African-American leaders need to step up and demand that the African-American communities do more for themselves. Sadly, perspectives such as this are seldom heard as the popular media propogates 'their' side of the story.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 -Moral poverty cost blacks in New Orleans - 1:00 a.m. Eastern

By: Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, African American Preacher and author.

Say a hurricane is about to destroy the city you live in. Two questions:

What would you do?


What would you do if you were black?


Sadly, the two questions don't have the same answer.

To the first: Most of us would take our families out of that city quickly to protect them from danger. Then, able-bodied men would return to help others in need, as wives and others cared for children, elderly, infirm and the like.

For better or worse, Hurricane Katrina has told us the answer to the second question. If you're black and a hurricane is about to destroy your city, you'll probably wait for the government to save you.

This was not always the case. Prior to 40 years ago, such a pathetic performance by the black community in a time of crisis would have been inconceivable. The first response would have come from black men. They would take care of their families, bring them to safety, and then help the rest of the community. Then local government would come in.

No longer. When 75 percent of New Orleans residents had left the city, it was primarily immoral, welfare-pampered blacks that stayed behind and waited for the government to bail them out. This, as we know, did not turn out good results.

Enter Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan. Jackson and Farrakhan laid blame on "racist" President Bush. Farrakhan actually proposed the idea that the government blew up a levee so as to kill blacks and save whites. The two demanded massive governmental spending to rebuild New Orleans, above and beyond the federal government's proposed $60 billion. Not only that, these two were positioning themselves as the gatekeepers to supervise the dispersion of funds. Perfect: Two of the most dishonest elite blacks in America, "overseeing" billions of dollars. I wonder where that money will end up.

Of course, if these two were really serious about laying blame on government, they should blame the local one. Responsibility to perform legally and practically fell first on the mayor of New Orleans. We are now all familiar with Mayor Ray Nagin the black Democrat who likes to yell at President Bush for failing to do Nagin's job. The facts, unfortunately, do not support Nagin's wailing. As the Washington Times puts it, "recent reports show [Nagin] failed to follow through on his own city's emergency-response plan, which acknowledged that thousands of the city's poorest residents would have no way to evacuate the city."

One wonders how there was "no way" for these people to evacuate the city. We have photographic evidence telling us otherwise. You've probably seen it by now the photo showing 2,000 parked school buses, unused and underwater. How much planning does it require to put people on a bus and leave town, Mayor Nagin?

Instead of doing the obvious, Mayor Nagin (with no positive contribution from Democratic Gov. Kathleen Blanco, the other major leader vested with responsibility to address the hurricane disaster) loaded remaining New Orleans residents into the Superdome and the city's convention center. We know how that plan turned out.

About five years ago, in a debate before the National Association of Black Journalists, I stated that if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years. The audience, shall we say, disagreed with me strongly. Now I have to disagree with me. I gave blacks too much credit. It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

President Bush is not to blame for the rampant immorality of blacks. Had New Orleans' black community taken action, most would have been out of harm's way. But most were too lazy, immoral and trifling to do anything productive for themselves.

All Americans must tell blacks this truth. It was blacks' moral poverty not their material poverty that cost them dearly in New Orleans. Farrakhan, Jackson, and other race hustlers are to be repudiated for they will only perpetuate this problem by stirring up hatred and applauding moral corruption. New Orleans, to the extent it is to be rebuilt, should be remade into a dependency-free, morally strong city where corruption is opposed and success is applauded. Blacks are obligated to help themselves and not depend on the government to care for them. We are all obligated to tell them so.


The Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson is founder and president of BOND, the Brotherhood Organization of A New Destiny, and author of "Scam: How the Black Leadership Exploits Black America."

[nacktman]

Damn it must be nice to have a "token" like rev. Peterson spout the party line.

Notice how quick this was trotted out after the fall from grace of the last "token" mr. Allen was as you know was arrested for shoplifting.

Lieb Dicht Herr Fuhrer!

[krcNY]

Good Article.

Days after the hurricane I was surprised to learn that so many stayed behind. I remember seeing on the news all the buses ready to evacuate any residents that did not have transportation.

I feel bad they lost family members, they should have taken the bus out of harms way and they would still be together.

thanks for sharing

[NaturalJudge]

Yes, all politics aside, heaven forbid an African American preacher, teacher, and author tells other able bodied African Americans to help themselves and not become dependent on the 'white man's charity'. What this minister says applies to all groups. It is one thing to help the truly needy, but quite an entirely different thing to make any race of people dependent on and controlled by government handouts. For some people, Katrina was an event that changed people's lives for the better. Rather then being stuck in some ghetto living on welfare with no chance for education, training, and employment opportunities to build a better life for themselves, this hurricane enabled some to relocate to other cities where there is the hope of building a brighter future. What is the right thing to do here - COMPLETELY rebuild New Orleans and bring people back to their old lives of hopelessness and poverty or help them to help themselves in other areas of the country where there are means to build productive lives for themselves. It would be far cheaper to give each person $100k and each state or city that accepts a relocated person $50k and initially support them to help themselves rather then spend enormous amounts of money to COMPLETELY rebuild New Orleans and bring people back to poverty. Such decisions should be made independent of politics. Sadly, with the poisonous political atmosphere which exists today, discussions of a practical nature are all but impossible.

[Jason Heh]

It's funny how calling someone a "token" for saying what he feels is ok. That to me is a racist word and term. He raises great questions.

Al the blame can't go to the goverment, it comes down to the person.

I know if a huge storm, so big Bush was told about it, and there was 5 days warning....five days!!!..I would have found a way out of the way of this storm, for my family.

Do the math...walking...5 days X 24 hours = 120 hours.

Ok so out of those 120 hours you WALK at a 3 mph pace....and this is dilly dalling about, for 12 hours a day.

12 hours X 3 mph = 36 miles a day

36 miles a day X 4 days = 144 miles.

You'll still face the wrath of the storm, but you'll be much safer.

For my family I would do this. Not count on the Fed. Gov. for help. As we all know they can't do anything right, so why would I or anyone count on them/it?

If they told me Yellowstone was going to blow....the last thing I would do would be to count on the goverment to assist me.

And after It happened I bet Jessy and Al would be no where near here to "Help" me.

This is no party line, this is just about being responsable for ones self.

That is all he is saying. Stop blaiming others for your situation.

The "Whoa is me" era needs to go away.

At least you didn't call him a "Tom" or "Oreo", that would be racist. Token is ok I guess.

[Baron Lake]

Yup, them lazy welfare cheats shoulda built their own levies and those who did walk and were stopped by road blocks coulda just jumped in the lake and swum aroun'
Ever body in your family can swim can't they Jason? They coulda backstroked to Baton Rouge in a couple a days.
b.l.
(and BTW that's "woe" not "whoa", but I think I will stop here)

[jon71]

Well if it's offense to call him a token let him try moron on for size. He seems to be one of the elitist that seems completely oblivious to the fact that not everyone could load up their suv, put $1oo in the tank and put a couple nights at a holiday inn on the credit card. The biggest reasons people stayed was monetary. No car (or least not a dependable one) and/or no place to stay if they did get out. When the waters rose faster than expected those buses had zero chance of getting out. Clowns like that scamming people and providing cover for rank bigotry are disgusting.

[hm0504]

It is not just a matter of walking. If you have children, medical needs, food needs, etc., just walking for several days is not risk free. How many of us could just get up and walk for several days without any idea of where to get food or shelter?

[usmc1]

Two comments:

One, there are several members here who delight in race-baiting and promulgating their hateful and racist philosophies. Reasoning with them is useless---if they had the ability to reason they would not put force their vile and disgustining filth.

If their thinly veiled racism was directed at gays, one has to believe their posts would be edited or removed.

This issue transcends politics and debate or disputation--it is about humanity.

Next comment:

I heard an African American man being interviewed in New Orleans during the early days of the flooding. He said, "My wife and I both work, and between us we made enough to have a small three room apartment. About every three months, I was able to set aside enough to take her out to Picadilly Cafeteria. That was our entertainment. We didn't live, we existed. We didn't have a life, we had an existance, and now that is gone. I don't know how we can carry on or if we want to."

For anyone, anywhere, at anytime to come forward and blame people such as this for being victims of a pernicious economic system and more than two centuries of racist politics and society is beyond cowardly.

As much as I deeply believe in each person's capacity for reform and regeneration and ultimately redemption (John Newton would be such an example), there are moments in which I do despair. After following the same people from thread-to-thread promulgating their racist beliefs, this is one of those moments.

[Naturist Mark]

The 'rev' repeated the media myth about murder, theft and rape at the Superdome and convention center. Conditions were terrible there without power, fresh water, adequate food, working sanitary facilities or other basic necessities, the hallways had turned into open sewers, but there was only 1 reported murder and no rapes, no bodies stacked in the hot unpowered freezers, no breakdown in order as misreported by the press. 50,000 people crowded and subjected to misery, hunger, and a lack of basic necessities and almost no violence or crime - that is an extraordinary testiment to their virtue. The press was so eager to believe in the moral degredation of desperate poor black people that they blithely repeated false stories without fact checking.

The flooded lower ninth ward, home of poor black welfare parasites as described by the press and the good reverend were mostly homeowners - 90% of them owned their homes - how's that compare to the vast (but shrinking) American middle class in the rest of the country? These homeowners are still waiting to learn whether they will even be permitted to repair or rebuild their homes, or if their neighborhoods will be bulldozed.

-Mark

[hm0504]

For your amusement -- a comparison of European and American levees:
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_nov2005/LeveeControl.htm

[NaturalJudge]

Webster’s Dictionary:

Racism: the practice of racial discrimination, hatred, persecution, discrimination.

People obviously read things differently depending on their backgrounds. The reverend stated clearly that if he was white, he would be accused of racism and ostracized. The reverend is entitled to his opinion just as others in this forum are entitled to theirs. Some individuals can see that perhaps the reverend has a valid point and actually wants better for African Americans. To keep any race down with dependency on social programs instead of helping people to help themselves can be considered the real racism and inhumanity. There has been a previous topic in this forum concerning welfare. Most individuals expressed the opinion that to help the actual needy is one thing, but to support capable individuals with their hard earned tax dollars is quite another. Society cannot have it both ways. If society decides to support anyone and everyone including the fit and capable with social support programs, then so be it and those who chose to work will pay very high taxes indeed. Notice how there is a clear separation between those who are actually in need versus those who are not. There are obviously two sides to a coin but if a topic or opinion is expressed here that does not fit within the very narrow minded limitations of certain individuals, then those same individuals personalize their response and attempt to shout out the ‘opposition’. Mature and intelligent individuals are open minded to all sides of a topic and will not resort to child like tantrums just because they can’t have their way or some one else dares to show another side of a topic. As has been mentioned previously in this forum, if an individual does not like the topic, then they can always move on to another topic.

[David77]

The practice of the government financially supporting a family <u>indefinitely</u> on the program, "Aid to Families with Dependent Children", is over, if the parent can be employed. There is a time limit for <tempotary</u> help.

For many years, in Illinois, I have counseled black as well as white families on obtaining training for eventual employment, schlorships for paymernt for training in junior colleges and education elswhere to become crafts-people, transportation problems to get to schooling and employment, budget management, babysitiing problems so they can attend training and for work, referrals to Planned Parenthood clinics and to other agencies, training on how to best present oneself to an employer, etc.

One of the big problems many times, as I see it, is that the wage scale is not high enough for a person to support his/her family. Congress has not increased the minimum wage for years. The greed of the corporations has created a massive problem for <u>employed</u> poor persons. Some in shelters for the homeless are actually employed. What does this say about our nation and congress' responsibility to protect it's citizens from exploitation by the greedy and powerful?

Some hold to the fallacy that black welfare families have large families. Our survey in Illinois showed that the average number of children in welfare families was just over 1 per family.

From my extensive experience, I favor Nudist Mark's comments as more correct.

The vast majority of black mothers are working in jobs in the economy. To label black mothers as not working, living off handouts is just wrong and prejudice. Of course, those affected by the hurricane have many horrible <u>special</u> problems.

Black fathers in the family setting accutely feel an obligation to support their family.

As for unemployed single men, many times, there is little welfare offered them, unless they are disabled.

[nacktman]

Mark and David77 have stated the "real" way of the world and not the hackneyed (stereotypical) view spouted by the "good" rev. and those like him. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Smoke and Mirrors, people, smoke and mirrors ... it's all the starboard ala can do ... they can not stand on their platform, the boards are rotted through and the nails are nothing but rust. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Besides, shouldn't this thread be under the Open Topic (not relating to Nudism) Banner?
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shrug.gif

[Tara]

BOND, which Reverend Peterson is the moderator of, is an ultra-conservative, right-wing religious organization.

He is anti-affirmative action.

He has referred to Islam as an "evil religion" and stated that all Muslims hate America.

He believes that Democrats are "anti-God, anti-values, anti-American." And "a real Christian cannot vote for a Democrat."

In addition to regularly attacking Jesse Jackson, Peterson is also responsible for creating and maintaining "The Blacklist," a record of Black celebrities who he has found to have done or said anything remotely political. Among the stars included are Will Smith, Spike Lee, Danny Glover, Whoopi Goldberg, and Sean "P.Diddy" Combs. Glover dared to say "We must work to remove injustices that create terrorism," while P.Diddy said he believed we had to get "Bush out of office" during the last election. Of course, Peterson left out the fact that P.Diddy also challenged all those who didn't agree with him to exercise their "right to go to the polls and represent Bush."
(What a typical, un-American thing to do huh? To have the nerve to advocate democracy!)

And if you ever get a chance, and your local library actually carries him, check out the chapter in his book "Scam: How the Black Leadership Exploits Black America," entitled "Why Black Women are so Mean." It's quite entertaining.
(Sarcasm intended.)

At the conservative student conference in summer 2005, he suggested, "Instead of reparations, how about a free ticket back to Africa?"

Peterson had only praise for former Education Secretary Bill Bennett, who has been condomed for his comment that aborting all black babies would be a way to bring down the crime rate, though it would be reprehensible. Rev. Petersoon said, "He has a right to speak about things. He has a right to point out right and wrong. I don't know why you say that he should not have, that he was clumsy in saying it. I think he was right to say it. I would've said it too."

NaturalJudge, you referred to Peterson as an "African American" preacher and author, but Peterson would most certainly take offense to this. He told a room full of young conservatives, "I'm not African-American, I am just American and anyone who sees themselves as African is not really American. I don't have an Afro. I have an Ameri-fro."

I could keep going, but I'd be here allll night...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
Mature and intelligent individuals are open minded to all sides of a topic and will not resort to child like tantrums just because they can’t have their way or some one else dares to show another side of a topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NaturalJudge, how can we take someone who is so biased and one-sided, seriously? Just look at the way he has skewed the facts about what when on in the Superdome (re: NaturistMark's post) to service his own agenda.

What do you have to say about that and other posters comments?

Intelligent discussion about both sides is a two-way street.

[NaturalJudge]

Tara,

We obviously all see things differently depending upon our backgrounds. I have been to numerous housing projects and have seen the crime and hopelessness upfront. It is not a pretty site. Most people of all races do not want to live that way and want a way out. Is it certainly not better to suggest a way to productive employment, hope, and a future rather then the endless cycle of poverty and dispair? I do not see anyone here directly answering that question. The point that is also being missed here is that people are making sweeping generations about an entire ethnic group rather then certain individuals within that group. Has anyone here been to an African-American church and listened to the messages and how they are delivered? I have and have many African-American friends who are tired of being patronized by the 'white man's charity' and only want a fair chance in life. Obviously, many here chose to see a very different message.

Tara, as for your question about taking someone like this reverend so seriously. I am certain that you are well versed in the different forms of communication. Some people such as the reverend gain attention by making 'outrageous statements' to get people to listen to some of what he has to say. I have read several other african-american authors who question the status quo. They dare to ask why so many African Americans are strugggling in life. It is their right to do so. Many people will scream 'racist' at them for doing so. It is also our right to listen to them if we so chose along with many other individuals and then within the framework of context to make up our own minds. Mark and David made some good points based upon their experiences and information. What they say is part of the story and worth listening to (ie David refers to his experiences in Illinois however there are 50 states and each handles their programs differently). Also, as I have stated before, the reverend along with anyone else is entitled to express their opinions and we can accept the entire message, parts of the message, or chose to reject it. Tara, yes he is one sided. I suggest researching someone who is on the exact opposite side as well as those more in the middle. Listen to everyone and then make up your mind as to where you personally want to stand. As for me, I do question why there is so much crime and poverty within this nation as it pertains to all groups. I also question the status quo and question whether the present way of doing things is really the best way to help those individuals who truly need help. I will keep an open mind and listen to all sides no matter where they stand and then make a final decision based upon all resources. I do not immediately scream 'racist' when I hear a message that I do not want to hear. Perhaps the person makes one good point, perhaps many, or perhaps none.

Tara, your statement concerning intelligent discussion about both sides being a two way street is a very true statement. Several who have posted here have demonstrated an interest in doing exactly that. Others have not. I am sure that you can see the difference.

Tara, so please consider sharing your thoughts pertaining to welfare in this country. Do you feel that the program works best as is? Do you feel that it can be improved and if so how? Do you feel some states do a better job of administering their programs then others?

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What do you have to say about that and other posters comments? Intelligent discussion about both sides is a two-way street. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tara, others have cautioned you, as I will now again, asking such reasonable questions is a useless exercise with these boyos. They will not answer them straight out.

What you got was hyperbolic BS and smoke screen based on juandices empiricism and race-based prejudice wrapped in some vague generality taht seems true.

"We see things depending on our background", sounds reasonable, but the truth is that unless we have risen above it, if our background is racist our perspective will be racist.

To cite one's observations in a public housing project as exemplifiing anything about race is about as valid as my making assertions about southerners based on my having seen the movie "Deliverence". Neither are relevant to the discussion or your questions.

Those who promulgate, pass on and repeat racist articles as examples of the proof of their wrongful thinking are indeed racist and while they may scream, "not me, not me," the truth remains for reasonable people to discern.

A subtext to all this is their dislike of federal programs to provide Health, Education and Welfare to the American people, ie the common good. They would benefit from reading the Bill of Rights and Preamble.

I accuse them often of gagging on gnats while swallowing camels. Here's a couple of their camels:

GM gets tax breaks to hire new workers and then lays off 25% of its workforce--Corporate Welfare.

Farming Corporations with vast holdings of former bankruoted family farms, such as Archer Daniels Midland, get huge incentives and subsidies under the guise of assistance to the family farmer--coporate welfare.

Florida citrus growers get tax subsidies and federal grants to develop overseas markets--corporate welfare.

But our good ole boys here never bleat about those middle-aged white guys racking in billions upon billions of our hard earned tax dollars through corporate welfare and profiteering.

They'd rather bleat about some poor single mom somewhere working two or three jobs at minimum wage and drawing some EBT credit to feed her kids and keep them in substandard housing and send them to under staffed and under funded schools while touting "vouchers" to extract a few more tax dollars so those white guys can use our tax dollars to send their kids to private schools.

Now why doesn't that woman do it the American way and lift herself by her bootstraps out of poverty--just another lazy welfare leech, in their tortured thinking.

It is not a matter of perspective, it is a matter of racist thinking and behavior.

[David77]

<center>List of Federal Welfare Reform Legislation of 1996

http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/workforce/welfare/wffed.html </center>

[NaturalJudge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tara, others have cautioned you, as I will now again, asking such reasonable questions is a useless exercise with these boyos. They will not answer them straight out.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have made some very clear points and elaborated upon them. I replied clearly to Tara. You chose to see things differently, and as usual resort to personalizing the discussion and throwing tantrums. You obviously do not like anyone's opinions that digress from your own. You obviously are not interested in allowing others to express opinions here that might not be your own.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What you got was hyperbolic BS and smoke screen based on juandices empiricism and race-based prejudice wrapped in some vague generality taht seems true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What she got was a response that you obviously do not agree with so you resort to emotional theatrics, provocations, and other assorted tricks to elicite attention and a response. You obviously refuse to see another point to this topic. That point is clearly that is it better to keep SOME individuals on welfare with no hope of a future or is it better to help them to help themselves? You call those who even consider this question racists. You further insult those who dare to post a topic that clearly does not fit within YOUR scope of what YOU define as non racists. As usual you resort to theatrics and personalizing the discussion.

I started this post with another side to the situation in New Orleans. It is one of many sides to the story. I have asked no one to take one side or another. I brought up a simple point for discussion without any resorts to personalizing this discussion or resorting to calling people racists because their opinions might differ from my own or others. We again experience the situation that if the opinions or topics expressed here do not fit within a very narrow scope of limited thinking, then those individuals who dare to bring up new or alternate points are shouted down. No wonder so many have given up posting here in an attempt to share their own viewpoints. It is very sad as I personally would enjoy seeing a variety of people posting and sharing their varied thoughts and experiences on different topics.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tara, others have cautioned you, as I will now again, asking such reasonable questions is a useless exercise with these boyos. They will not answer them straight out.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have made some very clear points and elaborated upon them. I replied clearly to Tara. You chose to see things differently, and as usual resort to personalizing the discussion and throwing tantrums. You obviously do not like anyone's opinions that digress from your own. You obviously are not interested in allowing others to express opinions here that might not be your own.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What you got was hyperbolic BS and smoke screen based on juandices empiricism and race-based prejudice wrapped in some vague generality taht seems true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What she got was a response that you obviously do not agree with so you resort to theatrics. You obviously refuse to see another point to this topic. That point is clearly that is it better to keep SOME individuals on welfare with no hope of a future or is it better to help them to help themselves? You call those who even consider this question racists. You further insult those who dare to post a topic that clearly does not fit within YOUR scope of what YOU define as non racists. As usual you resort to theatrics and personalizing the discussion.

I started this post with another side to the situation in New Orleans. It is one of many sides to the story. I have asked no one to take one side or another. I brought up a simple point for discussion without any resorts to personalizing this discussion or resorting to calling people racists because their opinions might differ from my own. We again experience the situation that if the opinions or topics expressed here do not fit within a very narrow scope of thinking, then those individuals who dare to bring up new or alternate points are shouted down. No wonder so many have given up posting here in an attempt to share their own viewpoints. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were no theatrics or tantrums of what I wrote, here or elsewhere, regarding your flirtations with racist comments and posting of out-and-out racist articles.

You're right, when I do not like what someone writes, I confront it and will argue my point with as much courage, conviction, passion and intellect as I can muster.

It is up to that person to respond or not respond, stay or leave, as they see fit. If I cross a line the moderators deal with it.

You seem to think that racism and victim blaming of those unfortunate people devastated by Katrina is a legitimate "point of view".

Well it is not, it is merely very thinly veiled racism. You introduce it as merely presenting another point of view, were we face to face I would be able to speak very clearly as to what that is. But, since we're in a moderated environment, let me say this: it is clear to me, and apparantly others, that you misrepresent your intentions.

Your "other point of view" contains the same old racist cliches, and buzz words that have been around for a very long time. It is the same old, same old. In the words of Sam the Lion, "I've had to listen to this garbage all my life..."

Personalize the dispute. Yep, since you're the person promulgating this tripe, you're the person under focus.

[NaturalJudge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> There were no theatrics or tantrums of what I wrote, here or elsewhere, regarding your flirtations with racist comments and posting of out-and-out racist articles.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you or did you not accuse me of racism because I posted an article that you obviously do not agree with? Did I ever mention that I agree with this entire article? This article has many different points. You are assuming that I agree entirely with them all. I am very able to read an article and to analyze it and consider it from many different viewpoints. Are you? I have asked this simple question over and over again: Is it better to keep SOME (let me repeat this word SOME) individuals on welfare with no hope of a future or is it better to help them to help themselves? Notice how I use the word SOME. You are reading something entirely different from what I have personally expressed. You refuse to address this question and this question only without resorting to calling me a racist. You can't seem to understand what I am asking here. You are ASSUMING things, which are NOT correct, and I have elaborated my position to you several times to no avail. It is YOUR choice to call people here racists when you do not agree with them and you have done so. This is a personal attack on an individual. You don't really know the majority of people here on this forum - personally, their background, or where they are coming from. You honestly do not know who they are or what they truly believe in. You don't ask questions to clarify points. You make adamant and sweeping generalizations and statements based upon assumptions that may or may not be true. You don't discuss or ask opinions or questions for the purpose of listening to other varied viewpoints or with the intention of learning something. You shout down those topics and individuals that you do not agree with. You mention Tara in one of your posts above. Tara is an intelligent woman and can speak for herself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You seem to think that racism and victim blaming of those unfortunate people devastated by Katrina is a legitimate "point of view".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never stated that I blame all Katrina victims for their unfortunate events. You are again reading into my posts and assuming things. I again bring up the point that SOME of the people who were devastated by Katrina were relocated to other states such as Texas where they have found education and work opportunities and are busy building a new life for themselves and their families. They have stated that they do not want to return to New Orleans where nothing but a return to a future of welfare and lack of future awaits them. You again generalize as if my statement applies to ALL people. It does not! You continue to generalize. You refuse to consider an alternate viewpoint without resorting to name-calling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Well it is not; it is merely very thinly veiled racism. You introduce it as merely presenting another point of view, were we face to face I would be able to speak very clearly as to what that is. But, since we're in a moderated environment, let me say this: it is clear to me, and apparently others, that you misrepresent your intentions.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read into my intentions and misread them. You make conclusions without clarifying. You will not accept the fact that I repeat over and over again that there are SOME people. You are not GOD and cannot tell me how to think. You do not have all of the answers in life. You express your opinions but refuse to allow others to do so that you do not agree with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Personalize the dispute. Yep, since you're the person promulgating this tripe, you're the person under focus.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Resorting to name calling such as racist and other assorted insults has nothing to do with this topic. It is your opinion that this is tripe. Not everyone will agree with you. If you ever wonder why so few post in these topics or contribute new topics, it is because of discussions such as this. People will not tolerate being insulted or ganged up on and many will stop posting. I have noticed that many avoid these topics and I am sure that you have also. If you want this to be a very narrow minded and one sided discussion among a very small group of like minded people, then continue in the manner that you presently are. If you want others to join in and share different thoughts and opinions then give them a chance.

[Baron Lake]

Judge quote:
"If an individual does not like the topic, then they can always move on to another topic."

Or they may comment upon it. (Yes, we do risk prosecution should we offend or upset; but a True Patriot cannot let a little jail time stand in the way.

Tara,
Loved your "Bill Bennett, who has been condomed for his comment" comment.

Too bad H.W. Bush wasn't similarly equipped.

b.l.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
[QUOTE] There were no theatrics or tantrums of what I wrote, here or elsewhere, regarding your flirtations with racist comments and posting of out-and-out racist articles.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NJ inquires:

"Did you or did you not accuse me of racism because I posted an article that you obviously do not agree with?"

I reply:
Here from the article that you posted and which you assert as a point of view missing from the dialogue about the tragedy of New Orleans:

President Bush is not to blame for the rampant immorality of blacks. Had New Orleans' black community taken action, most would have been out of harm's way. But most were too lazy, immoral and trifling to do anything productive for themselves.

Regardless their source these are racist words. You posted them, lamenting that it was a point of view not heard in the mainstream media. You have not disavowed those words. That is implicit of your support of such writings.

And, you might serve yourself well were you to reflect on why such things are not heard from the mainstream media.

I stand by all that I have written here.

[nacktman]

Tara, usmc1 http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif your insightful, composed disolution of the smoke screen emitted by the flame stoker herein has been a pleasure to read.

How come the starboard ala does not recognize when they trip over their own tongues and fall face first into the steaming pile of horse-hockey they just laid?
For normal people that sickly-sweet rancid aroma would be a primary clue, now wouldn't it? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[nacktman]

Hey, Baron Lake, jon71, hm0504, Naturist Mark, David77 and Tara did you all know you are sheep and usmc1 and I were your shepherds ... damn who knew! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

That would explain a lot?!? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

****

Typical though, smoke amd mirrors doesn't work so the personal attacking begins. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

[jon71]

Baaaaaaa!

Actually with all due respect Nacknam and USmc1 I have a different shepherd. As for AlexisDanielle I have a different explanation. Some of us have our eyes open and know what's going on. We repeat each other because we are looking at what is known as reality. You should come and visit sometime.

[nacktman]

Good for you jon71, I felt you had your own shepherd as do the others listed. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/yes.gif

There was one line, a very self descriptive line at that ... "Sad little people ....must be difficult to be in their skins." ... by it's author that rings true: Sad little people often lash out and accuse others of what they are.

But, it's time for Holmes On Homes on the Discovery/Home Channel so I must away for the time being.

[ncnudlady]

I've been busy lately and haven't been able to post as of late, but I see the neo-cons are still at it, lying and deceiving, and when that dosen't work attacking others personally.

All is normal within these forums then.

Wait a minute, I meant to say 'Baaaaaaaa'

BTW it is not offensive to call a token, a token.
It is just the right wing fundies public face paint to let them think they are fooling the public into thinking they represent ALL the prople and not just the RWBC (Rich White Boys Club) to have a person such as the Rev. parrot the party's dogma like a ventrilequist's dummy.

And the choir sings Amen.

[usmc1]

Dang it Alex you've just gone and crushed me. I am so wounded, you've just completely shattered my self-image by calling me a sheperd.

I've always thought of myself as a wolf marauding the flock rather than a sheperd leading it.

But, if that's what it is then that's what it's going to be.

OK, guy's listen up---let's get the flock out of here!

[Naturist Mark]

Hello sheep.

Baaaaaaaa! (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/boston-legal.mp3)

-Mark

[nacktman]

Great link Mark.

AlexisDanielle, methinks lady thou doth be pithy wench and a babaltrice.
But do please come visit reality once as jon71 suggested, you might find it opens your eyes a bit.

Ok, the other shepherd says it's time to get moving to a new pasture. So, let's do as he says and get the flock outta here, come on let's go.

[NaturalJudge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I stand by all that I have written here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What have you actually written here? False and misleading comments based upon inaccurate or incomplete assumptions that you have made? You continue to avoid discussion concerning only the issue and refuse to answer my statement that I have posted over and over again. You continue to avoid adding your background and perspective to this topic. Instead you resort to personal attack. This demonstrates a tremendous lack of understanding and mental flexibility on your part. For your information, I have worked hard to ensure that the civil rights of ALL Americans are respected. I have many African American friends, have attended church with them, and have witnessed the power of the pulpit and observed how messages are delivered in sermon. I have personally helped many African Americans to overcome the endless cycle of poverty and violence and to become productive individuals. What have you contributed to the African American community? This article was sent to me by an African American friend. He has made clear that the African American community is intelligent enough to hear all sides including this one and to make up their own minds. They do not want to be patronized by anyone who claims to be saving them from racism. They are very able to stand on their own feet and to save themselves. You call me a racist yet nothing could be further from the truth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Regardless their source these are racist words. You posted them, lamenting that it was a point of view not heard in the mainstream media. You have not disavowed those words. That is implicit of your support of such writings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


To make such a statement implies that you are not able to understand that there are many sides to an issue and respect people’s right to express their side. Your responses to this topic clearly demonstrate that. Let individuals themselves make up their own minds as to whether this is racist or not or what messages they see or do not see here. Let them freely express their opinions here. You don’t seem to be able to understand that based upon people’s backgrounds, histories, cultures, and experiences they will see and read things differently from one another. Not everyone in this world will see things as you see them. Why are you the authority on what is right and wrong? What have you avowed or disavowed? You are so certain that what you say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and yet you shout out anyone else that dares to even post something that may show another side to things. There are actually many different messages here but you prefer to only see what you want to see and will not comprehend that there may be another message imbedded here that calls people to help themselves. Yes there are political and racist messages here that I do not agree with. I also see a message imbedded here calling people to help themselves. You never asked about my opinion. You assumed (incorrectly) that I agree with this article in its entirety. You continue to judge people here without understanding that they may have a different perspective on issues that may be just as right as yours.

If you (and your followers) are so certain of your truth being the only truth, they why do you find it necessary to only attack the messengers of different messages here rather then express your opinions concerning the topic at hand? Do alternate messages scare you so much that you need to shout down anything that differs from your truth and immediately attack the individuals who post the alternate articles?

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I stand by all that I have written here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What have you actually written here? False and misleading comments based upon inaccurate or incomplete assumptions that you have made? You continue to avoid discussion concerning only the issue and refuse to answer my statement that I have posted over and over again. You continue to avoid adding your background and perspective to this topic. Instead you resort to personal attack. This demonstrates a tremendous lack of understanding and mental flexibility on your part. For your information, I have worked hard to ensure that the civil rights of ALL Americans are respected. I have many African American friends, have attended church with them, and have witnessed the power of the pulpit and observed how messages are delivered in sermon. I have personally helped many African Americans to overcome the endless cycle of poverty and violence and to become productive individuals. What have you contributed to the African American community? This article was sent to me by an African American friend. He has made clear that the African American community is intelligent enough to hear all sides including this one and to make up their own minds. They do not want to be patronized by anyone who claims to be saving them from racism. They are very able to stand on their own feet and to save themselves. You call me a racist yet nothing could be further from the truth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Regardless their source these are racist words. You posted them, lamenting that it was a point of view not heard in the mainstream media. You have not disavowed those words. That is implicit of your support of such writings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



To make such a statement implies that you are not able to understand that there are many sides to an issue and respect people’s right to express their side. Your responses to this topic clearly demonstrate that. Let individuals themselves make up their own minds as to whether this is racist or not or what messages they see or do not see here. Let them freely express their opinions here. You don’t seem to be able to understand that based upon people’s backgrounds, histories, cultures, and experiences they will see and read things differently from one another. Not everyone in this world will see things as you see them. Why are you the authority on what is right and wrong? What have you avowed or disavowed? You are so certain that what you say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and yet you shout out anyone else that dares to even post something that may show another side to things. There are actually many different messages here but you prefer to only see what you want to see and will not comprehend that there may be another message imbedded here that calls people to help themselves. You continue to judge people here without understanding that they may have a different perspective on issues that may be just as right as yours.

If you (and your followers) are so certain of your truth being the only truth, they why do you find it necessary to only attack the messengers of different messages here rather then express your opinions concerning the topic at hand? Do alternate messages scare you so much that you need to shout down anything that differs from your truth and immediately attack the individuals who post the alternate articles? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


One final time. What I have written here was in response to a blatently provocative racist diatribe against the poor of New Orleans written by a self-loathing Arfican-American minister which was posted and initiated by you as a point of view not seen or heard in the mainstream media. You offer it as a "different perspective". It is indeed that...very damn different. It is racist.

You seem chagrined and chapped that others would respond to such racist filth by associating you with it. If one promulgates and defends racists writings as merely "a different perspective" then one runs the risk of being thought of as a racist. You posted it. You defend it. You, at no point, disavow it.

All of your poor me being picked on by usmc1, et ux, does not suffice. You post racist writings and ask for discussion--well you got it, and you don't like it. Did you really expect to post such vile and hateful ugliness and expect people to tell you how wise you are, how insightful you are and how enriched their lives are by your "different perspective"?

There is nothing "different" about this article that you're so enraptured of. It is the same old evil, accusing blacks of being immoral, laxzy and trifling. These are not different perspectives, they are the perspectives of a racist. They are not alternate viewpoinsts, they are the viewpoints of a racist. They are not views worthy of the discussion of their merits, they are views worthy only of condemnation.

As to others and their perspectives. Yeah? And what about it? If I disagree, I let them know, as they do me. You, for some reason, seem to think that you should be permitted to post, promulgate and defend racist writings whithout negative response. There is just something fundamentally weird about that expectation.

Those who share your beliefs defend you, those that don't take you to task. I don't udnerstand why you're puzzled by that.

Now, I am getting the flock out of here and will go play some hockey so that I can also get the puck oughta here.

[jon71]

NaturalJudge when you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

[gamblefish]

There are definitly three sides to every story...

One question...

It is my experience that both black and white people live in government housing and collect welfare checks as well as SSI checks (in my area anyway).

Isn't it racist to say that all the "poor" people left to fend for themselves in the path of a major hurricane were black? Were none of them white?

[nacktman]

Gamblefish, nope tain't racist, tis elitest.
(Everbody know's they's no such thang as po'white folk)

Then again, nope tain't elitest, tis racist.
(All dem no good lazy's libbing offen da guberment)

Now wait a galldurn minute ... tis just plain wrong ... yeah, that's it.

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
No wonder so many have given up posting here in an attempt to share their own viewpoints. It is very sad as I personally would enjoy seeing a variety of people posting and sharing their varied thoughts and experiences on different topics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I seldom post here any more because of this. The number of monthly posts has dropped by over 2000 and this is one of several reasons.

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlexisDanielle:
Jeez.....another thread from the bully pulpit of usmc and nacktman and their sheep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen to that.

[nacktman]

The demise of your touchy-feely neo-con lovefest is cheered by those that truly seek thoughtful, insightful discussion.

We had ceased posting for years due to the harassing and attacking from the neo-cons.

But due to the increasing perversity and hatred spewed by the fundies ... gay bashing, liberal bashing, science bashing, freedom bashing, etc., ad infinitum we began posting again and have been joined by more and more voices.

This apparently is more than the neo-cons can stomach, people actually posting thoughts, ideas, opinions free from the dogmatic toeing of the party line.

The civility of discourse has improved with the indivduals now posting after the vitrol and bile of the neo-cons who tried to silence those that stood for themselves and their ideals petered out when some realized we would not be backed down by threats and attacks. Most of the vitrolic neo-cons have left and gone on to wherever neo-cons go to pucker up and kiss each other's posteriors. A scant few remain still attempting to aggitate and defame any not toeing the party line.

The departure of the neo-cons and their diatribes has left room for true conservatives to return to the forums ... they had left as well due to the neo-cons.

I have noticed a few of the oldest members have begun posting again in the past week now that the neo-cons have gone and not all of them would be considered liberals.

Maybe now as more true conservatives return we can have debate and discussion again.

As to point ... The rev. belongs to an ultra right wing group and is an elitest and a racist. "His" writing quoted to start this thread is nothing but the same old crap I've been hearing for over fifty years (and that's 50 years in the South ... although racism is more blatant in northern cities, but I digress).

To put it simply: The rev. is wrong!

[Bob S.]

Can a token be a sheep?

Calling one a sheep or a token is in no way advancing the discussion. And really, the difference lies in what side of the debate you are on.

Should we call all Democrats who support gun laws sheep? Should we call all Republicans who support abortion restrictions sheep?

Alexis, how are usmc, nacktman and the others sheep?

nacktman, what makes Rev. Peterson a "token"?

It seems to me that both are derrogatory terms given to the opponent. Sheep referring to those who toe the party line and tokens are a part of a minorty interets group who is part of a party that seemingly is working against their IG.

I do agree that the Rev. said things that would be racist coming from another ethicity. But that is to be expected. Some youths in the African American community use the "N" word with each other as a sign of comraderie.

And those in the community who do not toe the line are looked at harshly. Recall the uproar that Bill Cosby created when he laid the responsiblity for their problems squarely on the shoulders of the community.

I will agree that he went way overboard in his ostracism of the New Orleans African American community. Instead of a dialogue, he is going to attract defensive posturing, guarenteeing that no one will look at the issues that he wishes to change.

Bob S.

[Trailscout]

The citizens of New Orleans 9th ward and similar areas made the logical decision to seek refuge in the Superdome. They had no reason to believe that they would come to harm there.

The majority of New Orleans inhabitants chose to leave the city. Generally those who remained had no choice but stay. In most cases their income prevented them from owning automobiles. I have been in that situation myself in other years. Some lacked mobility due to handicap or great age. That is also not their fault. Faced with those circumstances, I too would have sought shelter at the Superdome, hoping that it would all pass in a few days, as it had happened with every hurricane New Orleans has had in recent memory.

The problem lay with federal government officials who ignored warnings that the levees would fail if New Orleans were subject to a tidal surge as the result of a hurricane. The current administration did not have time to build completely new levees, but armed with the knowledge of the vulnerability of the levees, the president should have notified local officials and coordinated an evacuation of immobile residents of New Orleans.

It increasingly seems that the head of Homeland Security had been incompetent, possibly negligent. The President chose to ignore warnings as well. Whistling past the graveyard, he hoped that disaster wouldn't happen on his watch.

Ray Nagin, as mayor of New Orleans had intimate knowledge of the city and held command of public resources that could have been used to equip the evacuation effort. Clearly he did not do all he could. New Orleans police did not have good emergency communications.

Some of the problems were long standing. The entire Mississippi basin has been dammed for 50 years or more, depriving the Misssissippi delta of most of the sediments that used to rejuvinate the marshlands. I realize that many of these dams are used to generate electricity in the Midwest, but it comes at a high price to the residents of the bayous and delta lands.

The 9th ward of New Orleans has been sinking for 200 years. It is now more than ten feet below sea level and twenty feet below the Mississippi River, and of course lower still when sea level rises in a storm surge.
It might have been wise to have evicted people many years ago from all the lowest parts of the city and created park land in these dangerous areas, then relocated the residents to higher ground.
Even post-disaster, many residents are regrettable clamoring to return to their homes that lie so dangerously below sea level. Wise leadership would resist that demand and provide housing at a safer location, but it remains to be seen how much political courage they will exercise.

Part of the devastation of New Orleans came from looters. New Orleans was famous for its violent crime. The city government has reputedly been too corrupt to protect their citizens adequately. And as in many towns, the poor were often the most victimized of all. It is also reported that gangsters from Dallas and Houston travelled to New Orleans to loot the city when it was vulnerable. Local police and National Guard should have anticipated this and blocked incoming traffic. There will always be some looting in a disaster, but years of lax law enforcement made things worse than it would have otherwise been.

In summary, I see fault on the part of Republicans, Democrats, local officials, state officials, federal officials and bureaucrats such as Chertoff and the inept cumbersome agencies they head.

[nacktman]

Bob, what makes the rev. a "token" is that he is not a truly accepted member of the RWBC and never will be ... the pigment of his skin bars him from true membership.

Spouting the party line with a "face" looking like what the targeted audience's face is, is an old tactic (maybe as old as the 'oldest profession') and that too makes one a "token", in that one is not a true repesentation of oneself but a characture of what someone else thinks you are.

The rev. fits both defintions.

Thank you Bob for the question, I hope I have been able to answer it to your satisfaction.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlexisDanielle:
Jeez.....another thread from the bully pulpit of usmc and nacktman and their sheep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen to that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would be much obliged if you were to take your head out from under your armpit here and face a couple of facts.

One, this thread did not originate with usmc1, it originated with naturaljudge, you were the second person who responded to it, with your approval of it. The first person spoke of its arrant racism.

usmc1 was the seventh or eith person who responded, so you and your pals are wrong when you suggest that this is antoher thread from usmc1.

You want to join in and supprot racism, taht's your deal. You want to castigate those who speak out against it, that also is your deal. But, the thing of it is, you do not get to espouse racist viewpoints or provide succor to those who do with impunity. Fair-mided, decent and rationale people will speal out against you every time.

It is not about politics. Racism is not a conservative value, nor is it a liberal value, but individuals who identify themselves as one or the otehr do engage in it.

It is not about personalities. Some of the sweetest and seemingly most charitaably Christian people engage in racism while some of the most irritating jerks on earth would not.

It is about racism only. To write that blacks are immoral, lazy and trifling and because of that failed to avail themselves of rescue opportunity in New Orleans is racist. To post such filth and defend it as merely a differing point of view is disengenous and obfucacious in the extreme, and is blatently racist.

People who do not want to be seen as racist ought not promulgate racist writings or offer succor and support to those who do. As the guy said, you lay up with dogs you're going to have fleas.

You don't get to tout your racist nonsense without opposition any longer, no matter how much it chaps you. Now, get over it.

If posting racist tripe incurs oppostion and causes you or anyone else to depart. So what? No loss.

[Trailscout]

Nackman,

It is patronizing to assume that blacks are the property of the Democratic party and have no business anywhere else.

[nacktman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In summary, I see fault on the part of Republicans, Democrats, local officials, state officials, federal officials and bureaucrats such as Chertoff and the inept cumbersome agenies they head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trailscout, I believe you have it down pretty good there.

I would add those individuals that could get out of harm's way and chose not to for reasons not so noble shall we say ... and there where some to be sure.

The entire preliminary show, main event and post game party known as Katrina has been a Cluster-F**k of massive proportions leaving no one satisfied.

But the sheer baseness and loathing of the rev. and those feeling like him is dehumanizing and shall not be tolerated.


BTW, TS, I don't assume any one belongs to the Democratic Party much less 'blacks'. Just who are 'blacks', are they a new form of human I haven't learned about, I've been under the impression there's ony one kind of human on this planet.
Well, there is this theory that 'bigfoot' might be another type of human but the jury is still out on that one.

[Trailscout]

Nacktman,

Self-examination is always a good thing. It is possible that the urban neighborhoods of New Orleans need to pull together even more than they do. But I have seen clear evidence that many of these neighborhoods did have caring grass-roots leadership that did the best they could to save lives and show compassion.

But in the face of this unprecedented disaster, what worked in the past wasn't good enough. But it's not like federal officials didn't see it coming. They just kept hoping it wouldn't happen.

Frankly I don't know if southern Louisiana can build a levee system high enough and sturdy enough to withstand a category 5 hurricane. I don't think it can be done at a reasonable cost. The next best thing is to not allow habitation in the danger zone, the lowest parts of the city.

And that does open up a door of opportunity for those who don't want New Orleans black neighborhoods to repopulate.

But rather than pushing to move folks back into the disaster zone, they need new housing on higher ground in metro New Orleans.

[Trailscout]

Nachtman,
Of course we are all in the family of man. Even those such as myself who are the last examples of Homo neantherthalis are also part of that family.

But in the United States, there is a community of people called blacks, afro-americans, etc.. who are united by a west African heritage, and the common bond of slavery, Jim Crow and second class status. Where I grew up, they had a different accent, some differences in cuisine, a different style of worship and music. For most, these cultural distinctions are cherished, though some were deceived into thinking that being "more like whites" would lighten their burdens.

There is an ongoing debate about the extent to which government is needed to redress the wrongs of the past. For instance, when will college admissions take no interest in the ethnic background of the applicant? But such a debate would cause us to digress from this thread, so I've said enough.

[nacktman]

Trailscout,

I agree with you there were many local neighborhood "officials" that did wonders with what they had to work with. It was the "official" Officials that dropped the ball (and did sometime long before the hurricane).

As to repopulating the 'danger zone', if we did not allow repopulation of it, the entire city would have to be abandoned as well as the entire gulf coast of the United States ... somehow I don't see that one happening.

As to the lower parts of New Orleans itself the reason the low income families lived there was that no one else wanted them near them (and it's the same everywhere) nor wanted the land on which they built their lives (because of this very thing).

No one holding onto land of higher elevation in and around New Orleans is going to let it go to build homes for the poor and lower income population. If they turn it over at all it will be for high dollar for commercial opportunities (which is really short sighted since with no population to speak of commercial opportunities will falter more than thrive, but that is another discussion.)

I have met several displaced New Olreans residents here and all but one say they are staying here and not going to go back. I am sure others have met other displaced residents and may or may not have the same results ... maybe the majority they have met are looking to go back. Most I have talked with think it will be at least a decade before any semblance of normal will return to New Orleans.

As to LA's ability build a levee system to withstand a catagory 5 hurricane ... they have as much of a chance as a snowball in hell.

[nacktman]

Trailscout,

I am all too familiar with 'blacks' having grown up in the South when 'Jim Crow' was in full force and lynchings where not unheard of.

I have always questioned "WHY" and have taken many a beating for it as a child.

I just have never 'seen' the pigment of a person's skin as any account ... I was a content of a man's character man long before Dr. King gave that speak of his.

I have never claimed to have 'black' friends or to have had them over to my house ... I have friends and I have them over to my house and I'll be damned if I care what color they are.

Although Susan did wear lavender body paint to our last party and it did raise my eyebrow, she was iridescent and she kept blinding me with the glare every time she moved. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[UnitedNudists]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlexisDanielle:
Jeez.....another thread from the bully pulpit of usmc and nacktman and their sheep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen to that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps it explains the spear and shield.

[nacktman]

The shield is to block away Bullsh!t and the SWORD is to stab holes into lies, let a little air in as it were. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Seriously, though it is in homage to my Celtic Warrior ancestry.
Always to oppose tyrants and never surrender freedom.
And they always fought nude.

[Trailscout]

I must disagree with you slightly. The French Quarter held up pretty well. I know some folks west of the city who sustained damage but not total devastation.

Face it, the ninth ward of New Orleans and St Bernard Parish are simply so low and exposed that they are vulnerable in a way that makes rebuilding foolhardy.

Are we the US taxpayers expected to fork over one trillion dollars for repairs every 50 years or so when another Cat 5 comes ripping through that area?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Trailscout,
...As to repopulating the 'danger zone', if we did not allow repopulation of it, the entire city would have to be abandoned as well as the entire gulf coast of the United States ... somehow I don't see that one happening.

As to the lower parts of New Orleans itself the reason the low income families lived there was that no one else wanted them near them (and it's the same everywhere) nor wanted the land on which they built their lives (because of this very thing).

No one holding onto land of higher elevation in and around New Orleans is going to let it go to build homes for the poor and lower income population. If they turn it over at all it will be for high dollar for commercial opportunities (which is really short sighted since with no population to speak of commercial opportunities will falter more than thrive, but that is another discussion.)

I have met several displaced New Olreans residents here and all but one say they are staying here and not going to go back. I am sure others have met other displaced residents and may or may not have the same results ... maybe the majority they have met are looking to go back. Most I have talked with think it will be at least a decade before any semblance of normal will return to New Orleans.

As to LA's ability build a levee system to withstand a catagory 5 hurricane ... they have as much of a chance as a snowball in hell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gamblefish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Gamblefish, nope tain't racist, tis elitest.
(Everbody know's they's no such thang as po'white folk)

Then again, nope tain't elitest, tis racist.
(All dem no good lazy's libbing offen da guberment)

Now wait a galldurn minute ... tis just plain wrong ... yeah, that's it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I mean is, Kanye West comes out and says something like "Pres. Bush doesn't care about black people.". I believe it would have been more accurate to say "Pres. Bush doesn't care about poor people.". Where is the outcry for the poor whites?

Or is it that Kanye West doesn't care about white people? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/tongue.gif

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
The shield is to block away Bullsh!t and the SWORD is to stab holes into lies, let a little air in as it were. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Seriously, though it is in homage to my Celtic Warrior ancestry.
Always to oppose tyrants and never surrender freedom.
And they always fought nude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You left a long time ago because of the way you were treated by others. Is it now OK when you are the one dishing it out?

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What I mean is, Kanye West comes out and says something like "Pres. Bush doesn't care about black people.". I believe it would have been more accurate to say "Pres. Bush doesn't care about poor people.". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or simply "Pres. Bush doesn't care about people."

-Mark

[nacktman]

Gamblefish, I think mr. West doesn't care for "poor" people either.

He was speaking the truth about bush (and you are right, he would have been more accurate to say "poor" instead of "poor black" people), but he was pandering to the crowd as well

*******

Mark you hit it exactly. Damn you're good!

[nacktman]

Trailscout,

Yes we are, except it is to be used for the affluent neighborhoods so that they do not have to use their money to rebuild. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

The poorer neighborhoods will be left to their own devices as always.

The Old French Quarter held up mainly due to the old sailors that settled on the high spot in the swamps and built a trading post ... they knew about hurricanes and built on the highest spot available to avoid the very flooding Katrina brought ... those ol'Tars weren't as dense as the movies portray them to be.

[nacktman]

Gamblefish, Trailscout,

Please be advised you are now within the 'flock of sheep' over which usmc1 and I have been annointed shepherds. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif
(You get full membership just for having your own mind and can form your own opinion)

Beware of personal attacks forthcoming and yelps about debating the topic (funny that's what I thought you and I where doing TS ... Gamble and I are exchanging pieces wry wit I believe).

[gamblefish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Gamblefish, I think mr. West doesn't care for "poor" people either.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, cuz (because) they can't buy his cd's cuz (cousin)!!

{parentheses added for clarification}

[brackets added so as not to be confused with parentheses]

{(other brackets used so as...ok, I'll stop now.)}


P.S. As long as there ain't no tuna on that wry... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/tongue.gif

[nacktman]

I'm not the confused one here Deary.

Neither TS nor Gamble are toeing the party line with regard to the topic in hand.

TS has expressed his opinions and they do not agree with the rev. as closely as you might wish them to be.

Gamble has expressed a thought as to the lack of caring exhibited by the shrub and his cohorts, which is definatively outside of the party line.

Therefore, using your definition they are most decidedly within "our" flock.

Both have their own minds and can use them, something apparently that is difficult for you to understand.

So when are your personal attacks directed toward them scheduled to begin, they are not conforming to narrow minded dogma after all?
We would like to synchronize our watches. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

Should you attempt to debate or discuss the topic it would be helpful but your silly nit wit twitterings are boring and bring nothing to this debate.

BTW, if you were attempting to post your little "poem" in meter, you failed, if not, you succeeded tremendously.

[Tara]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlexisDanielle:
Debate the article. Absolutely no need to attack the poster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

UMMM, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, then what is?!?! LOL

I was posting regarding the article and the person it is about, who is an ignorant, arrogant, narrow-minded man, in my opinion. I pointed out other things about him that highlighted this.

YOU are the one who decided to attack the posters on here, myself included calling me a "sheep." YOU. So you have alot of nerve now telling people not to attack the posters.

So it looks like you do need to get your head out of wherever it is and pay attention.


Call me a sheep all you want, but it won't insult me because I can admit that yes, I once was one. Only thing is, I was one back in the year 2000, when I was 19, and I voted for George W. Bush. When I believed that the Republican party was the good party because my family voted for them, and since my family are good people, they must be doing the right thing. It wasn't until after that election that I started opening my eyes, growing up, caring about politics, and learning for myself. Yes, my name is Tara and I am a recovering republican. I've been clean for 6 years now. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

I am certainly now NOT a sheep, lemming, or any other easily-herdible creature. I question everything. I also question the state of your life, if you have enough time to sit around creating scenarios in your head where myself and other "liberal" posters are in some kind of secret nudist underground to dominate the message board. Get over it. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that there are people who think here, and they are not all going to think like you. (No sheep comment for the numerous people who disagree with "us" huh?)

Even people like Gamblefish and Trailscout, who are more conservative than I or perhaps usmc1 or Nacktman (not that I can be 100% sure of their politics, since I've been busy and missed our last few "meetings") seem to agree that this Peterson guy is a bit off his rocker.

[Tara]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NaturalJudge:
Tara, so please consider sharing your thoughts pertaining to welfare in this country. Do you feel that the program works best as is? Do you feel that it can be improved and if so how? Do you feel some states do a better job of administering their programs then others? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been away from this thread so please do not think I have been avoiding answering your question.

No, I do not think the welfare system in this country is operating to the best of it's ability, but before I would fix anything about it, I would fix our public education system. To fix any problems in this world you have to start where you can have the most effect. So once every child (regardless of skin pigmentation or zip code) in this country has access to the same quality education, then I would focus on the welfare system, or health care, or numerous other areas that are in need. But education would be my priority.

"If you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for these crimes to which their first education disposed them -- you first make theives and then punish them." -Sir Thomas More

[krcNY]

If I lived in NO, I would have done all I could to get out. Many people did just that, but there are always the folks who stay(no matter what the reason) and they are playing with their lives. I was surprised that so many people remained in and around NO, when the hurricane hit.

Everytime a big hurricane goes past my Aunts area, I am a wreck, because most times they stay. They don't think it is going to be that bad. Well Charley destroyed their home with them in it, thank god they OK, but it was real bad.

Nature does not care who you are, just get out of her way.

Tara, I truly agree with the education thing. With all the budgets, the schools keep loosing money and our taxes are sky rocketing, but still we need to cut back on activities at our school and busses, increase class sizes and so on. It is wrong...these kids are our future...Education should be at the top of the funding list.

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlexisDanielle:
usmc, think it is you who needs to remove his head from under your own armpits as the stench has gotten to you.

The thread was initiated by Natural Judge and then you, nacktman, and your narrow minded followers jump in and start throwing flaming darts at the poster and immediately initiate a personal attack instead of debating the article. You come out in bully force by calling the poster a racist. And like the other threads you get into, it becomes a bully pulpit with your wordy sarcastic remarks and personal word lynchings. Debate the article, usmc, and quit attacking the people who post them.

I did not respond to the article but to your same method of attack ..... which is interesting as you now call me a supporter of racism. Huh? Now how in the name of hell did you come up with that conclusion?

Debate the article. Absolutely no need to attack the poster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is there to debate? The article is racist.

The issue is why would someone post a racist article as a "different point of view" missing from the dialogue about N.O. unless that person is a racist or misguided troll.

The self-defense that was offered by the poster certainly, in my mind, eliminated the later.


Had your hero had a disclaimer, "that while I do not agree with anything this joker says..." None of this dialogue would have occurred. But, that was not the case.

Instead it was posted with the personalized endorsement that it was a "different point of view" "missing from the mainstream media".

Racist article minus disavowal plus endorsement equals racism at work.

Defense of, support of, and succor for racism at work equals racism. You chose to defend it. Who defends racism but a racist?

Furthermore, Alex, old girl, you engage in the very word play of which you accuse me. You seem more concerned with how I write than what I write.

As to attacking the people. You know what? I don't really. Personal attack is not permitted here.

What I do challenge and dispute, with as much rhetorical skill, clarity and energy as I can muster are wrongful, hurtful and hateful ideas and notions such as racism, homophobia, sexism, preemptory militancy, facism, religiosity, unrestrained predatory economic policy and practices and et al.

If that puts me in oppostition to people such as you and others---good. I would not want to be counted in with your tribe nor your approval.

[nacktman]

krcNY take care you've joined the "flock" now the lady sniper will be watching you. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Seriously, you and Tara are right about education. With an educated population more opportunities are available.

I do however have to disagree on one point ... class size ... it should be decreased not increased. Staffing schools with more qualified teachers is the answer with fewer students will increase the education of our children by providing them with more "face-time" with their instructors.

The quandry is that as a society our priorities are completely askew ... teachers, firemen, policemen, etc., are some of the lowest compensated workers in our country while athletes, politicians, actors (some) are the highest compensated ... and no one is willing to remove the skewer for now.

[nacktman]

Tara, we have missed seeing you at the last few "meetings". http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/stickdance.gif

Glad to see your recovery is going well.

[nacktman]

usmc1 it seems "our" flock is growing. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

We might want to consider some more "shepherds" to help herd the flock around. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Any one jump to mind? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gif

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
usmc1 it seems "our" flock is growing. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

We might want to consider some more "shepherds" to help herd the flock around. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Any one jump to mind? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proof of what I've been saying, human decency transcends politics and personality.

Well actually, if my old dog Jake could type as well as he talks, I'd nominate him right off. He has even less patience with nonsense than I.

He'd fit right in here too--he's about as nuts as the rest of us. Half Lab, half blue heeler, one-hundred percent hybrid vigor--he can't decide whether he'd rather herd or retrieve them.

Mostly he comprimises and just runs them ragged.

But, the good thing about him is that he doesn't growl before he bites like I do, he just does the deed. I admire him his directness.

But, I prefer to think of us not so much as a flock, but more like a "clique." Let's meet in the cafeteria after gym and tear them up.

[krcNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
krcNY take care you've joined the "flock" now the lady sniper will be watching you. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Seriously, you and Tara are right about education. With an educated population more opportunities are available.

I do however have to disagree on one point ... class size ... it should be decreased not increased. Staffing schools with more qualified teachers is the answer with fewer students will increase the education of our children by providing them with more "face-time" with their instructors.

The quandry is that as a society our priorities are completely askew ... teachers, firemen, policemen, etc., are some of the lowest compensated workers in our country while athletes, politicians, actors (some) are the highest compensated ... and no one is willing to remove the skewer for now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was saying that even though our taxes are sky rocketing. Our school systems are still cutting back any way they can, including increasing the class sizes. I liked it better when there were less than 20 kids per class, now my daughters class is 34 kids in 5th grade. Not a large room for all those desks either.

[nacktman]

My apologies krcNY, I did not get your point it seems.
34 students to one teacher is outrageous, none can get enough of the teacher's attention to be able to learn much of anything.
If there are disruptive students that even further dimenishes the time/ability correlation.
If there are not disruptive students the odds are some will become so in an innate effort to increase their ability to learn by having more attention from the teacher though this method results in miniscule success as intended and maximized decreases in reality.

[jon71]

My daughter is in Kindergarden and her class has about 10 students. She is learning by leaps and bounds and I fully believe small class room size is a big piece of the reason why.

[gamblefish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Neither TS nor Gamble are toeing the party line with regard to the topic in hand.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krcNY:
If I lived in NO, I would have done all I could to get out. Many people did just that, but there are always the folks who stay(no matter what the reason) and they are playing with their lives. I was surprised that so many people remained in and around NO, when the hurricane hit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To kill two quotes with one stone...

While I agree with Nackt and Trail that all levels of gov't from local to federal were less than adept at dealing with the aftermath, I totally agree with krcNY that no matter how poor I was, I would have done everything in my power to get me and my family out of harms way.

I know there were people who were unable to do this for reasons aforementioned. But I am just as sure there were some who could have gotten out but just didn't and now they are looking to blame anyone but themselves.

And I don't think any of us are so naive that we don't think that there are some (black and white) who do abuse the welfare system.

[tinner666]

And I had thought that the problem was putting a city in the low spot at the mouth of a river.
Discounting all the personal impacts posed by the storm, I thought it was an attempt to make a large lake full of 'structure', to attract large fish and improve the bass fishing in the state.
I feel sorry for all the losses, but how many of us here would build and live in a spot like that on purpose. Even the Netherlands may have a MAJOR problem one day.

[nacktman]

Gamblefish, gotta hand it to ya, you pretty well summed it up. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[UnitedNudists]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:


What is there to debate? The article is racist.

The issue is why would someone post a racist article as a "different point of view" missing from the dialogue about N.O. unless that person is a racist or misguided troll.

The self-defense that was offered by the poster certainly, in my mind, eliminated the later.


Had your hero had a disclaimer, "that while I do not agree with anything this joker says..." None of this dialogue would have occurred. But, that was not the case.

Instead it was posted with the personalized endorsement that it was a "different point of view" "missing from the mainstream media".

Racist article minus disavowal plus endorsement equals racism at work.

Defense of, support of, and succor for racism at work equals racism. You chose to defend it. Who defends racism but a racist?

Furthermore, Alex, old girl, you engage in the very word play of which you accuse me. You seem more concerned with how I write than what I write.

As to attacking the people. You know what? I don't really. Personal attack is not permitted here.

What I do challenge and dispute, with as much rhetorical skill, clarity and energy as I can muster are wrongful, hurtful and hateful ideas and notions such as racism, homophobia, sexism, preemptory militancy, facism, religiosity, unrestrained predatory economic policy and practices and et al.

If that puts me in oppostition to people such as you and others---good. I would not want to be counted in with your tribe nor your approval. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. That attack on USMC lacks virility. It was not fair. Let's all get along.

[Trailscout]

I am a conservative Georgia Democrat. Over the years, I have come to realize that a conservative Democrat is not the same as a conservative Republican.

Occasionally I ignore both parties and just support what I see is a better way.

I have lived on the "wrong side of the tracks". I have lived in the smallest trailer of a trailer park, working for a big company which mistreated its workers and caught between them and a union that wasn't quite as bad as the company executives, but wasn't treating us right either.

I have lived in a cinder block house in a rough neighborhood and rode an hour and a half to the side of town where the jobs and money were.

I know others who had it far worse, so I am not complaining. I am just saying that after a few years of living that way, it helps you see life in a way that a lot of the elite in Washington don't have a clue about. And I am not singling out either party on that comment.

I'm enough of a fiesty contrary hillbilly that I don't want to be living on the dole. All I have ever wanted was enough education and opportunity to make something of myself. I have partway succeeded, but it took me a long time. But I will never forget where I came from.

My family has Asians, Mexicans, Europeans and perhaps some native American Indians and everything in between. We are precolonial moonshine-making sons of the pioneers and the children of immigrants from every corner of the world.

We love America, but it is not a blind love. We think this country has the potential for moral greatness. The money will take care of itself, if we just work hard and practice fair play without letting others play us for a fool.

Now, I'll try to get back to New Orleans. This whole thing has cast a light on our nation's weak spots, local and national. There's been enough backbiting and hindsight. While things are still in the spotlight, it's time to change the way our local and national agencies respond to crisis.

Firing the Head of Homeland Security might make us sleep well for a night or two, thinking we actually accomplished something. And that probably would be a good start, but the trouble is very deeply rooted in these institutions.

And Peterson has grossly oversimplified a very complex problem with our nation's urban poor. There are social problems in many areas to a greater degree than in the green lawns of suburbia. But many of the people who are blamed for not fending for themselves, did the best they could based on their previous experience with hurricanes. With every other hurricane, waiting it out in the upper rooms of your home or in some sturdy building a few blocks away was the sensible thing to do.

And I understand Tinner and Gamblefish's perspective, but fact is, when you live behind a levee long enough, you begin to take it for granted. Your life depends on an earthen wall created by imperfect humans and your faith was justified in those levees and pumps until the day that the storm of storms put that levee to the test and the levee gave way.

[usmc1]

What we saw with stunning clarity in New Orleans was poverty and its effects. Poor people do not make the choices that the non-poor make because they do not have the options of the non-poor. To blame people for their poverty is ruthless disassociation from a moral problem which affects us all and which hinders our country's yearning for greatness.

Once, as a nation, we recognized this and declared War on Poverty, and later a War on Drugs, and now a War on Terrorism. Somehow, we do not do well when we declare war on nouns. Poverty and drug and alcohol abuse continue to deplete our national strength. The next act of terror is merely minutes, hours, days, weeks, month away.

Each of these failed wars could be attributable to many things. But, for me, gross failure of leadership and planning are the primary factors. The venality of congress, the sophisty of the Senate and the meglomania of the administtrative branch are major contributing factors.

But, the real problem is you and me, and you, and you, and all of us. And so is that is that precious thing we call society--we are society, we are the culture and civilization of this nation.

We espouse liberty and individualism but we don't all of us vote. Those of us who vote, we don't all of us stay informed, but instead rely on pundits and ad agencies who salve our fears and speak to our biases and prejudices. Those of us who stay informed and vote, we don't all get involved in the process and attend precinct meetings and caucuses. Yet, we summon up the energy to despair, decry or condemn the results of our inattention.

If we seriously wanted to do something about drugs, poverty, and terrorism we would and could. We should. One has to wonder why we don't.

John Edwards spoke of two Americas. We saw its twin faces in New Orleans.

[UnitedNudists]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:

John Edwards spoke of two Americas. We saw its twin faces in New Orleans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be four woudn't it?

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UnitedNudists:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:

John Edwards spoke of two Americas. We saw its twin faces in New Orleans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be four woudn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even as a liberal major I can cypher out: Twins = two faces. Two Americas = two faces, one white, one black. One poor, one not.

But, the truth is that poorness in America is not the private providence of African Americans. It is just that the majority of the poor are African American.

Two Americas, poor and non-poor. Twin Americas, presenting two faces to the world. One smug, self-satisfied and indifferent. The other struggling and despairing.

[UnitedNudists]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UnitedNudists:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:

John Edwards spoke of two Americas. We saw its twin faces in New Orleans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be four woudn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even as a liberal major I can cypher out: Twins = two faces. Two Americas = two faces, one white, one black. One poor, one not.

But, the truth is that poorness in America is not the private providence of African Americans. It is just that the majority of the poor are African American.

Two Americas, poor and non-poor. Twin Americas, presenting two faces to the world. One smug, self-satisfied and indifferent. The other struggling and despairing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Poorness" = poverty.
"Cipher" not 'cypher'

'Provenance' not 'providence.'

Your last paragraph is all sentence fragments.

Liberal major?

[nacktman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> (There are) Two Americas,(The) poor and non-poor. Twin Americas, presenting (Their) two faces to the world. One (Face) smug, self satisfied and indifferent.(,) The other (Face) struggling and despairing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The statement above is not a collection of sentance fragments any longer.

Attention to minute details is not a sign of intellegence ... distain for minute details is a sign of intellegence.
As any English professor that ever attempted to get me to conform to the "Laws" of proper English composition on a regular basis can tell you as the handed me the essays of the rest of the class to edit for them.
In other words I knew the "Laws" backward, forward and upside down but I didn't care.

"Poorness" does not equal poverty alone, it covers the lack of quality in life, be it standard of living, educational level, occupational opportunity, familial structure, etc.
Poorness, poverty and poor are three distinct states of being that do intertwine and cross at multiple levels, but do tend to settle more heavily amid the lower economic strata: none posess the sense or presense to denote gender, skin pigmentation, heritage, etc, as to determining their swath.

The glaring example the Katrina so "kindly" gave us is not the pretty picture we want to see.
The rev. and his ilk are attempting to "whitewash" the canvas and repaint the iydllic picture they want the world to see and not the reality of the world ... funny thing is most the rest of the world sees the aftermath of Katrina and the hardships she evoked as pretty much status quo in their little piece of heaven on a daily basis.

Note the Aussies have had "no" trouble responding to Larry (which by all accounts makes Katrina look like a weakling) after the cyclone slammed into the northeast coast there: There were poor people there as well.
Is it that maybe the Austrailian government cares for all its citizens?
The Aussie response has been from everyone, from locals and other fellow citizens to the top levels of government and immediatel