Why There Aren't More Women in Nudism?

[Elendil]

In my blog, I posted a a clip of two women's experience going to a nude beach. Mind you this happened in Croatia, but I've see/heard worse happening here in America.

[Rabid_Clam]

Understandably this happened in Croatia but what of more civilized areas we frequent? Maybe our focus would be better served by discussing England, USA, Canada and other places we may frequent!

[garbo]

If anyone would take the time to review the hundreds of prior threads discussing this very topic, one would undoubtedly find an endless list of reasons why many women are resistant to accepting nudism. Perhaps the purpose of this subject is not just to list the reasons, but ultimately for us to find counter arguments or at least lead to meaningful discussions with our reluctant spouses or significant others.

I tried to feel out the interest level of my significant other a while back and she told me that she did not oppose the concept of nudism but just did not have an interest in the lifestyle. She is in her mid 50's, very independent, secure with her body image and does not seem to care about what others may think or say. Upon my request, we spent a day at our local resort without issue. After several additional visits, she is now enjoying it more and able to socialize with others.

If more women were able to relax and just give it a try, to forget about all the stigmas and phobias for a day, it might be a very different experience.

[MoonShadow]

I couldn't open the link on the website but will assume that what it says is how young women, particularly fit and attractive ones do get hit on at nude beaches. This has happened many times to me and some friends when we were in our 20s an 30s.

Our solution was to just move from where we were sitting or go to another location. Nude beaches are not the only places you get hit on as some resorts are the same and some are even worse than nude beaches....and my experience the hits were largely from married men!

You have to find the resort(s) you are comfortable with as well as beaches (although both may require some travel time).

[rn_davidson]

I have always thought that if you take the "SEX" out of nudism today there would be way less "violations" happening. If everyone was always nude, would there be anyone taking pictures of anyone for someone elses benefit?

[Croydon]

The clip states three big points as to why the lack of women in nudism.

1) Too many men

2) Too many older men

3) Men who are pests.

We can not do much about one and two. We can safely assume that men are comfortable with being nude. Perhaps because there aren't a lot of pressure on men to look their best, be fit, look young etc etc. In this country, I find that it is acceptable for man to be fat than a woman.

As for number two, there are in fact a lot of older men in nudism. What can one do? Nothing. It is just the way it is. It also shows that young people just wish to socialize with others their own age. It has nothing to do with not wanting to talk to older people but we will have a better time when we can socialize with those our own age.

#3: This I see A LOT in nudism. Men being pest, especially older men. You see it on beach, you see it at the resorts and you see it here on CFF. I find it hilarious. Once a woman walk in, especially a young one, the men (ESPECIALLY the older men) behave like horny teenage boys. As if they have never seen a woman before. It especially happens on CFF a lot. A new female member joins and posts, the men here are all too happy to welcome her and be her "tour guide." I once took a female friend of mine to Sandy Hook when we were in college. She is young, attractive and very fit body. I took a back seat at the beach and watch as these old men run to talk to her. She was quite a good sport about it and we both enjoyed the laugh. Only once I had to tell a guy to back off because he couldn't take a hint that she isn't interested.

For women, the constant come on can be annoying and leaving you feeling uncomfortable. Guys just need to learn to BACK OFF.

[Rabid_Clam]

Yes, Croydon, this is too much the case and is unfair to both the women and the decent males that are in such environments. Not much one can do about it, is primordial and has not been 'trained' out of them by their parents.

[WNYjoe17]

I fully agree.
But would also add that our society has such an exact, unrealistic image of what their bodies should look like that many women feel they couldn't do so without losing weight, losing the scars, etc.

Joe

[chuckincville]

Originally posted by garbo:
If anyone would take the time to review the hundreds of prior threads discussing this very topic, one would undoubtedly find an endless list of reasons why many women are resistant to accepting nudism. Perhaps the purpose of this subject is not just to list the reasons, but ultimately for us to find counter arguments or at least lead to meaningful discussions with our reluctant spouses or significant others.

If more women were able to relax and just give it a try, to forget about all the stigmas and phobias for a day, it might be a very different experience.

That's why I'm interesed in this post. I am looking for "counter arguments" to try to convince my wife to give nudism a try. She is more than relunctant -- I don't know if you call it a phobia or what. She says that being nude is an intimacy to be shared between the two of us. She can't see how you can seperate sex from nudity - (except maybe in the shower).
Any suggestions? Or can you point me to previous posts or other resources?

As to the link -- My question is - what would the girls reaction have been if they would have been "hit on " by some young "hunk"? Only they could answer that. Being a "wolf" is not restricted to old men.
Anyway - isn't that a problem with beaches? My undersanding is that this is not a problem at clubs and resorts. And don't nudist/naturists come in all ages?

[DoctorSurferDude]

Croydon is right on.....the reason there aren't more women is....MEN.

I think there are a lot of good nudist men, in fact I KNOW there are. But I've also seen over and over and over and over and over again the kind of desperate behavior that occurs when I bring a girl to the beach.

When I was single, more than half the time I would go to a beach or resort by myself. It was lonely and occasionally I would see a single female on the beach, but I would never bother then, never sit by them....mainly because I didn't want to be like those "other guys" who surrounded them within an hour and basically made them so uncomfortable they had to move or leave.

As I became more comfortable with nudism, I would mention it to my friends. I introduced somewhere around 10 women to nudism when I was single. I enjoyed introducing them to something new and fun....HOWEVER....when I started to take a female with me to the beach or resort, EVERYTHING changed. All of a sudden the single guys came out of the woodwork....all of a sudden they came over to welcome "us". All of a sudden they come up and talk to "us" on the beach. I've made the mistake of leaving my friend on the beach while I went to go pee...BIG mistake. A couple of my friends made the mistake of assuming if going without me to the beach the men would be as polite....BIG mistake. The contrast in behavior of the men in the presence and absence of a female was painfully transparent.

And...as Croydon mentioned, this forum has fallen under that plauge. If I end up posting on a topic where a new female is writing....I try and make a habit of including a blurb requesting her to just never check her mailbox... Out in the real world, I tell females to never go to a nude beach by themselves, only with a trustable male by their side. Resorts are the only place a female can enjoy a nude day alone....but not because they won't be bothered, it has more to do with the fact that they can REPORT the guys who bother them. Sad condition.

So...Why aren't more women involved in nudism??

1) Too many men

2) Too many older men

3) Men who are pests.

[Croydon]

I think a lot of single nudist men are seeking nudist women, hence why they come off as desperate when they are around nude women.

I have always said that nudist men seeking nudist women as partners are wasting their times. The likelihood of that happening is SLIM. There are so few nudist women who are nudist and even fewer who are single. Your best is meeting a regular gal and opening her to nudism.

Believe me, if the girl at the beach or resort is interested in you, she would approach you.

[Boreas]

I have commented on this in previous threads. I think Croydon and Dr. Surfer have it right....men. That is one reason. It is the reason I have "Happily Married" on my posts. As soon as I disclosed I was female, I got all kinds of PMs, even from one man in this thread, looking for friendship. Not interested.

People in here have commented about society's pressures on women to have good bodies. I don't think that is as big a deal as other social pressures. For instance, traditionally, if a woman was sexually or physically assaulted it was somehow her fault. Women have quickly been labelled as tramps (and other words that will likely get this post bleeped) very easily. Women have traditionally been taught to dress modestly. It still happens today in some form. Look what happened to Janet Jackson over one breast. Okay, so that was TV and the real world would be different right? Wrong.

Women are also either revered as in the Virgin Mary, or reviled as temptresses. This is still a man's world in many ways. This makes it difficult for women to bare all.

I have not gone to a public nudist venue yet, mostly due to the distances involved to get to one. I have participated in safe social nude situations with safe friends. My friends have a hot tub and use that as an ice breaker for newbie nudists.

I would caution against too much pressure on your female friends to try nudism. If there is any chance she sees it as a wierd sexual thing, you may send her running.http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[chuckincville]

I find this thread to be pretty discouraging if not depressing. It certainly seems to bust the bubble of nudism/naturism as advertised by AANR & TNS.
For the most part I have enjoyed this Forum - I have found some amazing, insightful, and intelligent posts on a wide range of topics. I've also seen a lot of "ad hominen" arguments, broad generalizations, and distrust. So I guess people are pretty much the same wheather they are nudists or "textiles".
Was I misinformed or just naive to think that nudist/naturist were good, helpful, friendly people and nudism was a healthy wholesome activity?
The problem here - as my wife tried to warn me (she's smarter than me) - is the internet. Because there are so many wierdos out there you have to be suspicious and guarded.
I'm convinced that I won't find the answers I'm looking for here. I think I'm pretty much done.
Best wishes to all true nudists here - keep your sunny side up.

[Ed 2]

Ditto to what the Doctor and Croydon said. If there was only a way make guarantee that all men that go to beaches were gentlemen. Those "other guys" give the good guys a bad name. It is an unfair, but understandable, stereotype for all men.

[Walt Iliff]

As a life-long (well 40 years) mainly resort/club nudist, with occasional visits to a few beaches, I have observed the rude beach behavior practiced by certain men. For those of you who are regular beach goers, is it possible to get together and establish a "no hassle zone" where couples and single females can congregate with the central rule being, "Unless I initiate the conversation, please respect my privacy." I know at Haulover, there are beach "ambassadors" who try to maintain a certain level of decorum, but the problem is that the beach is a public place, but there is still strength in numbers, and if certain individuals were to become intrusive, they could be politely told that "she/they is/are with us." When I took a group of people to Playalinda a few years ago, we hung out with the Central Florida Naturist group and they were very helpful in keeping unwanted attention away from the kids who were there with us. I especially liked when a very persistent guy chose to set up his chair a few feet away from the kids' blanket and refused to move saying that it was a public beach and he could sit wherever he liked. The Naturist group agreed with him and formed a circle around his chair so that the only view this guy had was a sea of middle aged male butts. After a very few minutes of this, the guy packed up his stuff and moved on down the beach.

Walt

[walter05]

Chuck;

When I became interested in nudism it was part of my learning to love, respect, and care for my body. I thought it would be the same for others.

I have learned that some nudists are very warm and friendly and others are not.

Nudists are just people whom like to be naked. The same assortment of temperaments and natures is present.

Walter

[wiz]

I' m not convinced that the lack of woman on a nude beach has anything to do with the number of men there nor necessarily their behavior. One just has to look at the alternatives to nude recreation, clothed beaches for example often suffer exactly the same issue. A pretty girl hits the beach and within minutes is surrounded by guys looking to hookup. same thing at gyms and other locations.

In the same vain you often here about people, both men and woman, being tired of the Bar scene. In the case of a bar the experience from the womans point of view is often the same, that of bing the fish in a tank surrounded by fishermen. the problem for many woman though is that they have been conditioned to believe that the bar scene is a promising social development path. So the higher tolerance, though often coupled with eventual dismissal of the bar scene altogether. This leads to an environment where the selection process favors those woman that don't mind being surrounded by a large number of guys ready to jump their bones. That however is a very small percentage of woman, the rest find other social outlets.

From the male perspective, the feeding frenzy often builds upon itself. Like it or not the human male is the one that pursues, and experience teaches that if you aren't the one to set the hook first and quick, you will be left with no worm on the hook. So it comes down to this, if you are a male your chances are minuscule if you don't place yourself into contention.

Now that covers the issue of normal males. The bigger problem is that many males in the lifestyle aren't exactly normal. Yes I'm male, but lets face it there are some strange people here. This has already be brought up in this thread so I don't feel out of place mentioning it, but being surround by people that give one the willies is more likely to turn off woman more than nudity itself or the feeding frenzy. Not that the feeding frenzy isn't a problem just that exists just about anywhere.

That feeding frenzy is an issue of perception too and reminds me of an incident in high school. I went to high school in a very rural location near a military base. This meant an almost continual change in the make up of the school body. One year a very pretty gal landed in class and much to the dismay of the local gals attacked the attention of just about every male in the class. It became very apparent that the new gal wasn't bothered by being surrounded by half the class courting her attention and at the same time very clear that the local gals weren't happy about it. While I won't go into terms used to describe this situation, there is a perception in the female community that woman that are surrounded by men in such a manner are um undesirable. You can fill in the actual verbiage used here, just imagine mad young 17 & 18 year olds.

The point is, many woman have been conditioned to see socialization with men, in numbers, as a very bad thing. At times it is and other times just leads to a large gulf between the sexes.

Dave

[wiz]

Originally posted by walter05:
Nudists are just people whom like to be naked. The same assortment of temperaments and natures is present.

Walter

I think you have a very important point here. Many people expect others to be just like them when joining a club or lifestyle. That is totally unrealistic in my estimation. Until some sort of evolutionary process happens where we discontinue being individuals there will be all sorts of people interested in nudism.

Like the common village there will be some bad players. How one deals with them is always an issue. In many cases practicing nudist aren't all that open minded. Even here in this forum you see an almost instant desire for groups to gang up on people simple based on appearances or behaviors that they are suspicious of or find different. Sometimes that is justified and sometimes not.

Thread discussing body jewelry, tattoos, and other adornments come to mind as ones where I see a lot of unjustified intolerance. I actually find body piercings and jewelry a bit revolting but that shouldn't in and of itself determine if someone would make a good nudist. To me the only really bad nudists are those with a desire or propensity to do harm.

Dave

[DoctorSurferDude]

Chuck....I don't know what to say. The grass IS greener on the other side, despite the shortcomings.

This is probably not a topic that would be taken well by a new or curious nudist reading in. Especially discouraging to a single male nudist. Please believe, that despite the imbalance, the nudist community as a whole has figured out how to make it work.....and it's a wonderful thing.

Wiz....there is this feeling that men don't usually experience, and that few men ever take the time to ponder. But it is a feeling that ALL women know very well. That is vunerability. At textile beach, or a bar, or a classroom a woman might be surrounded by guys and feel empowered....but the dynamic of that situation is completely different than a nude beach. On a nude beach she is alone.

A closer comparison would be a woman walking through a strange neighborhood at night....one guy is intimidating, let alone a hoovering group. I know ONE girl who braved the nude beach alone for 2 years, and put up with a heck of a lot of crap. Vunerable? Yes...but she also has a black belt in karate. I know many more girls, however, who won't go or won't go back for the same reason.

[John P]

One story I thought was kind of funny was that at Haulover Beach women would get so many aggressive pickup attempts that they'd go and sit among the gay guys. Somehow it seems that the kind of men who hit on women in public places don't like to mix with gays! And of course the gay guys were happy to show who has good manners.

A woman I know went to the Ledges alone--that's a nude beach on a lake in Vermont--and she had a good day, but as she was walking along the path on the way back to her car, a man came up to her and asked if she'd care to watch him masturbate. When she wasn't enthusiastic, he offered to pay her. That was a male naturist, folks, like you and me, a man eager to get that hook set. Should women be rushing to be naturists while we're around?

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[LamontCranston]

Elendil -- looks like your blog may have been hacked.

In my blog, I posted a a clip of two women's experience going to a nude beach. Mind you this happened in Croatia, but I've see/heard worse happening here in America.
Why There Aren't More Women in Nudism

[chuckincville]

Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:

Chuck....I don't know what to say. The grass IS greener on the other side, despite the shortcomings.

This is probably not a topic that would be taken well by a new or curious nudist reading in. Especially discouraging to a single male nudist. Please believe, that despite the imbalance, the nudist community as a whole has figured out how to make it work.....and it's a wonderful thing.

Doc
I'd rather hear about how the "grass IS greener"! Maybe I was expecting a kind of utopia - a garden of eden - where innocence, trust, and gentility is a way of life and each person is respected - even revered for the wonderful creations that they are. Pretty unrealistic, eh? My wife says that I sometimes live in a fantasy world - but I'd much rather look for and expect the best in people and deal with an occasional disappointment.

I think that this thread is too much "reality" -these are real HORROR STORIES! If "this is not a topic that would not be taken well by (the) new or curious" shouldn't it be posted in the members only section where it would be less available to the newly interested? On other topics some have expressed concern as to how the newcommer would react to too much emphasis on things like penis size, body piercing, etc.
so far this thread is worse.

Here I am trying to convince my wife to share my interest in naturism and we run into this!!!
A small dose of realithy is good - "to be forewarned is to be forearmed" but good grief are men the ONLY reason there are less women in nudism?
One of my wifes' question is the nature or nurture idea. Maybe it's genetic - since some really seem to be born to it or is it the way we're raised?
My point is that - there has to be more to this than evil men - couldn't this discussion be more balanced? I'd love to hear from more women on this - but unfortunetly ther are more men..
Come on girls - what held you back? What was the attraction? Would you - do you - encourage your female friends to give it a try? What can you tell guys like me that would help us "recruit" our wives/lovers?
How do we "make it work"...(this) wonderful thing"?
I love green grass!!!
chuck

[walter05]

John P;

An individual that would walk up to a woman and offer to masturbate for her is a pervert and an exhibitionist. Whether or not he is naked. However, he is not a naturist.

There may be those who go to nude beaches who are not really naturists or nudists. However that is a problem anywhere.

Every naked person in public is not a nudist or a naturist. Some are perverts and exhibitionists.

I think this thread is going in a direction that will misinform. Naturists and nudists are not largely perverts. They are people who like to do things naked.

Chuck and everyone;

I have a wife and four daughters. Unfortunately, all of them tend to not go places alone. I would not want them to go to a beach in a swimsuit alone. This is because there are also some clothed male perverts out there who are threats.

Whether clothed or not, there may be predators and perverts. One must be careful. There are also wonderful people whether clothed or not.

Since dabbling into nude recreation I have met a few people that have become friends. I have also started to communicate with people via the Internet that I would love to meet. Some nudists and naturists show a tendency to think for themselves that is terrific.

I have noticed that some younger adult nudists tend to be better at logical reasoning and expressing themselves than their clothed peers. I guess that the process of thinking through such a significant departure from the customary way of interacting and having to explain it to parents and others has provided an exercise in logical thinking and expression that they have benefited from.

In short, there are some who have chosen to enjoy nudity for higher reasons. In my case, it has been part of the process of learning to value my own body. It has been an almost spiritual opportunity for growth. You can enjoy nudity and share it with others in a very uplifting way. Please be as careful as you would with clothed people and choose who you wish to associate with wisely and you may be in for some personal growth and satisfaction.

[Sanslines]

A woman I know went to the Ledges alone--that's a nude beach on a lake in Vermont--and she had a good day, but as she was walking along the path on the way back to her car, a man came up to her and asked if she'd care to watch him masturbate. When she wasn't enthusiastic, he offered to pay her. That was a male naturist, folks, like you and me, a man eager to get that hook set. Should women be rushing to be naturists while we're around?

This man is not a real naturist but a pervert who just likes to get naked. There is a BIG difference between the two. Masterbating in front of woman is a dysfunctional aspect of some men who like to show their dominance over women. It has absolutely nothing to do with real nudism or naturism. Women should be treated with respect and not as bodies and sex objects. This loser of a man probably doesn't even have a clue. He gives all real nudist men a very bad name. When situations like this happen, is it really any wonder why women lose interest in nudism very quickly?

[Tsirutan]

DEFINATELY HACKED - I visit this site on a regular basis and have never seen the links that are posted on it currently - better change some passwords!

Originally posted by LamontCranston:
Elendil -- looks like your blog may have been hacked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In my blog, I posted a a clip of two women's experience going to a nude beach. Mind you this happened in Croatia, but I've see/heard worse happening here in America.
Why There Aren't More Women in Nudism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[chuckincville]

Originally posted by walter05:
In short, there are some who have chosen to enjoy nudity for higher reasons. In my case, it has been part of the process of learning to value my own body. It has been an almost spiritual opportunity for growth. You can enjoy nudity and share it with others in a very uplifting way. Please be as careful as you would with clothed people and choose who you wish to associate with wisely and you may be in for some personal growth and satisfaction.
Thank you Walter!
Maybe one reason that there are less women is that when we try to convince our wive/lovers to join us is that we fall into the trap of rebutting what it isn't.
I know exactly what you're saying, Walter, when you speak of it as being an "opportunity for spiritual growth" In my limited experience I have felt that too. The problem is how to express that in understandable terms to someone who can't/won"t see beyond their clothes.

"...the two shall be one flesh."-- for me, naturism can't be what it is meant to be without her.

[Boreas]

Hi Chuck, I think the trick is to start slow. If you are trying too hard to convince your wife, you will likely only turn her off. She may suspect alterior motives if you try too hard.

If you have a hot tub, or if you know anyone with a hot tub start there. That can be a safe "acceptable" place to be nude. That can expand to just hanging around the home nude with friends. Or even, hanging around her own home nude. As I type I am thinking you may even have to start with a smaller step. Does she even go bra-free in the home. That might even be the place to start. When she knows it is safe to be nude, she will begin to see the benefits.

Sadly, there's a lot of social factors that make it difficult (not impossible) for women to enjoy social nudity. Be patient.

[Agde]

I have commented on this in previous threads. I think Croydon and Dr. Surfer have it right -- men. That is one reason... People in here have commented about society's pressures on women to have good bodies. I don't think that is as big a deal as other social pressures....
Still_Boreas

I find this thread to be pretty discouraging if not depressing. It certainly seems to bust the bubble of nudism/naturism as advertised by AANR & TNS.
chuckincville

... The Naturist group agreed with him and formed a circle around his chair so that the only view this guy had was a sea of middle aged male butts. After a very few minutes of this, the guy packed up his stuff and moved on down the beach.
Walt Iliff

Just a couple quick comments from a Europe perspective. All the public beaches near me that have naturist sections have been "adopted" by local naturist clubs as part of the expected activities of the French Naturist Federation and in formal agreement with local law enforcement. The kind of situations mentioned by John P and Walt Iliff are always handled promptly by club reps. Maybe ANNR/TNS could consider something similar. Growing up naturist, I was always taught that it was the responsibility of the guys to protect. The slightest inappropriate behaviour always got an instant visit from an ad hoc committee of protective naturist males. Maybe naturist males on US beaches need to be more consciously and pro-actively protective.

This summer, I have happily hosted new naturists on three occasions, once to an American club and twice to French beaches, and in every case the women involved told me how much they had enjoyed it, especially being able to leave all the usual gender worries behind. Ensuring a complely safe, non-sexualized environment is really key to everybody enjoying naturism.

Final thought: Enjoying "nudie time" doesn't mean women can't also enjoy shopping for clothes and dressing up! There are good occasions for both! Adding naturism to life is just adding the ultimate form of casual attire to your wardrobe.
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[Boreas]

women involved told me how much they had enjoyed it, especially being able to leave all the usual gender worries behind. Ensuring a complely safe, non-sexualized environment is really key to everybody enjoying naturism

Amen! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[usuallylurk]

I think that this thread is too much "reality" -these are real HORROR STORIES!

.........

If "this is not a topic that would not be taken well by (the) new or curious" shouldn't it be posted in the members only section where it would be less available to the newly interested?

(etc.)

Here I am trying to convince my wife to share my interest in naturism and we run into this!!!

(etc.)

A small dose of realithy is good - "to be forewarned is to be forearmed" but good grief are men the ONLY reason there are less women in nudism?
One of my wifes' question is the nature or nurture idea. Maybe it's genetic - since some really seem to be born to it or is it the way we're raised?
My point is that - there has to be more to this than evil men

Chuck,

I belong to a club that is couples and families only. II also belong to three other groups that are not.

In other threads, you hear of people complaining, that the couples-only groups should be sued, outlawed, etc.

YET -- those restricted clubs serve as excellent gateways to introducing a reluctant person -- particularly a reluctant woman -- to the nudist mode of living.

So they do serve a purpose -- a very important -- a very POSITIVE purpose for growing nudism, in spite of the fact that some within nudism demand that the national organizations attempt to force an "open gate" policy on all clubs, parks and resorts in the country.

</shields up>

If you lived in New England - Cedar Waters is the BEST place for a first visit, especially for the reluctant female partner. There are many fine groups here, and my wife and I belong to Maine Coast Solar Bares and Naturist New Hampshire, which BOTH have open admission policies, but if I knew of a couple where the wife was willing to give it "one trial shot" -- I'd say, go to Cedar Waters for it.

http://www.nhnude.com

</shields down>


Four reasons I've learned that women don't go --

1) Body image, body self-assurance. "I won't fit in, my body isn't...." The Naturist Society has put out two videos - one is "Body Positive", the other "Real Women, Real Stories". Both deal directly with the issue. You'll have to Google around to find them. That can be overcome. Meet real nudists that don't fit the "perfect body image" -- if if you meet them in a non-nudist environment.

2) They question the motivation behind their male partner's interest. This can be very difficult to overcome -- if the husband has suggested participation in swinging, or is very heavily into online porn, for instance, the wife may have strong suspicions as to why he wants to go. A man may have presented these other things to his wife/girlfriend previously, and so the door is closed on the nudist idea now.

Oh, and nudism -- while it is an interest that a couple can explore together -- it is not a mechanism that will "spark up" a failing marriage. But that's a whole other thread.


3) The impression that we nudists are sex-crazed. The only way you can convince her that we're not is to meet up with nudists in a non-nudist environment -OR- somehow get her to make a visit. Remember, all of these nudist materials - websites, pamphlets, videos, etc., are propaganda, and if she has her "propaganda shields up" you're not going to have much success at that.


4) Moral upbringing. Nudity is an intimacy not to be shared, except with a partner? Going nude is wrong? Almost impossible to counter. I tell people who have wives/girlfriends in that situation = if you respect the institution of marriage more than nudism, give up and toss in the towel. Find some other common area.

[usuallylurk]

I think that this thread is too much "reality" -these are real HORROR STORIES!

.........

If "this is not a topic that would not be taken well by (the) new or curious" shouldn't it be posted in the members only section where it would be less available to the newly interested?

(etc.)

Here I am trying to convince my wife to share my interest in naturism and we run into this!!!

(etc.)

A small dose of realithy is good - "to be forewarned is to be forearmed" but good grief are men the ONLY reason there are less women in nudism?
One of my wifes' question is the nature or nurture idea. Maybe it's genetic - since some really seem to be born to it or is it the way we're raised?
My point is that - there has to be more to this than evil men

Chuck,

I belong to a club that is couples and families only. II also belong to three other groups that are not.

In other threads, you hear of people complaining, that the couples-only groups should be sued, outlawed, etc.

YET -- those restricted clubs serve as excellent gateways to introducing a reluctant person -- particularly a reluctant woman -- to the nudist mode of living.

So they do serve a purpose -- a very important -- a very POSITIVE purpose for growing nudism, in spite of the fact that some within nudism demand that the national organizations attempt to force an "open gate" policy on all clubs, parks and resorts in the country.

</shields up>

If you lived in New England - Cedar Waters is the BEST place for a first visit, especially for the reluctant female partner. There are many fine groups here, and my wife and I belong to Maine Coast Solar Bares and Naturist New Hampshire, which BOTH have open admission policies, but if I knew of a couple where the wife was willing to give it "one trial shot" -- I'd say, go to Cedar Waters for it.

http://www.nhnude.com

</shields down>


Four reasons I've learned that women don't go --

1) Body image, body self-assurance. "I won't fit in, my body isn't...." The Naturist Society has put out two videos - one is "Body Positive", the other "Real Women, Real Stories". Both deal directly with the issue. You'll have to Google around to find them. That can be overcome. Meet real nudists that don't fit the "perfect body image" -- if if you meet them in a non-nudist environment.

2) They question the motivation behind their male partner's interest. This can be very difficult to overcome -- if the husband has suggested participation in swinging, or is very heavily into online porn, for instance, the wife may have strong suspicions as to why he wants to go. A man may have presented these other things to his wife/girlfriend previously, and so the door is closed on the nudist idea now.

Oh, and nudism -- while it is an interest that a couple can explore together -- it is not a mechanism that will "spark up" a failing marriage. But that's a whole other thread.


3) The impression that we nudists are sex-crazed. The only way you can convince her that we're not is to meet up with nudists in a non-nudist environment -OR- somehow get her to make a visit. Remember, all of these nudist materials - websites, pamphlets, videos, etc., are propaganda, and if she has her "propaganda shields up" you're not going to have much success at that.


4) Moral upbringing. Nudity is an intimacy not to be shared, except with a partner? Going nude is wrong? Almost impossible to counter. I tell people who have wives/girlfriends in that situation = if you respect the institution of marriage more than nudism, give up and toss in the towel. Find some other common area.

[Pete Knight]

Well Doc

I see it as you do, I keep away from the girls as I don't wish to perceived as one of those flies around the honeypot type of guys, but here in France I've spent time on a beach near Montpellier where I was out numbered by the ladies, it made me feel more relaxed and able to enjoy naturism.

The mainland European approach to nudism is far healthier than can be found in Britain, and most probably in America too, I was able to enjoy nudity without fear of being thought of as a single male predator, it has enhanced my enjoyment of the nude experience.

Those guys you describe aren't nudists at all, they are sexual predators without clothes and they are the reason why decent single males have a stigma attached.

Pete Knight

[Jason Lee]

evict the men who are pests (ban every nudist camp/club/resort)

[koko]

hello everyone i really need to know if there r any nude organizations in the middle east?

[wiz]

Well Doc

I see it as you do, I keep away from the girls as I don't wish to perceived as one of those flies around the honeypot type of guys, but here in France I've spent time on a beach near Montpellier where I was out numbered by the ladies, it made me feel more relaxed and able to enjoy naturism.

That is all well and good but there is a flip side to that. Locate yourself away from the woman and other labels get attached. Everything from aloofness to homosexual. It really is a difficult situation to be in if you are single. The tendency is for everybody, to judge every particle of your speech and mannerisms just so they van pigeon hole you as quickly as possible.


The mainland European approach to nudism is far healthier than can be found in Britain, and most probably in America too, I was able to enjoy nudity without fear of being thought of as a single male predator, it has enhanced my enjoyment of the nude experience.

I wonder how you know what the others where thinking? As for America I don't really see enjoying nudism as a single to be a huge problem. If you are single and get into nudism for the social aspect you may be making a mistake, but to enjoy your self no problem.


Those guys you describe aren't nudists at all, they are sexual predators without clothes and they are the reason why decent single males have a stigma attached.

Pete Knight

I really don't know if that is the reason or not. The reality is if you are a single male you will have social issues, nudism or not. Married people won't understand why you are single and married men will think you are out to get their wives. Again this is not an issue of nudism per say, just that I see nudist as being hyper sensitive to these sorts of things. In general if a male has personality issues such a jealousy paranoia, nudism tends to amplify those defects.

Now that is the opposite of what many claim nudism represents or offers to the practitioner. In many cases though it does in fact seem to be the case. Restrictive nudist locals are more a reflection of the personality types managing the place then anything else.

Dave

[wiz]

Wiz....there is this feeling that men don't usually experience, and that few men ever take the time to ponder. But it is a feeling that ALL women know very well. That is vunerability.

I don't deny that that is part of the issue. But I suspect that it is smaller than you suspect.

At textile beach, or a bar, or a classroom a woman might be surrounded by guys and feel empowered....but the dynamic of that situation is completely different than a nude beach.

A long time ago I heard from an old man about woman and work. What he said is don't get your meat from the place that you make your bread.

Turn that around some and you can say that woman go to the meat market when they need meat and skip the bakery when they don't need bread.

What this boils down to is that woman aren't often on the make when going to the beach. Even if they are they likely already have a image of what they are looking for. That Image doesn't include ancient men that could pas sas their grand fathers.

On a nude beach she is alone.

A closer comparison would be a woman walking through a strange neighborhood at night....one guy is intimidating, let alone a hoovering group.

That is frankly a bit of nonsense, men can be intimidated just as easily. Finding any one situation threating is not just a characteristic of a female brain.

I know ONE girl who braved the nude beach alone for 2 years, and put up with a heck of a lot of crap. Vunerable? Yes...but she also has a black belt in karate.

Interesting Girl! It would be interesting to see what would have been going through her mind while she was there. Karate doesn't exactly teach you to walk into a dangerous situation especially if you are out numbered. My guess is that she did not see the danger or feel it like some woman.

I know many more girls, however, who won't go or won't go back for the same reason.

Yes I don't dismiss this at all. What I'm saying is that there are many woman that don't go clubing or to the bars for the same reasons. A nudist venue may be somewhat more balanced against a single woman but the response she will get will vary very greatly based on the make up of the venue. I know of at least one place I use to frequent years ago where single woman never really had a problem. At least they didn't make it known to me.

Dave

[Liam C]

That is all well and good but there is a flip side to that. Locate yourself away from the woman and other labels get attached. Everything from aloofness to homosexual. It really is a difficult situation to be in if you are single. The tendency is for everybody, to judge every particle of your speech and mannerisms just so they van pigeon hole you as quickly as possible.

Dave

It has been my experience that women predominate in all areas of nudism. They set the rules and dictate behavior. This is not bad necessarlly, but it is pervasive.....and can cause abuse of males.

Now as to labels: I find no fear in being labeled as a homosexual. It is what I am so why should I complain about it (depending on how that label is intended). I LIKE women as friends and like to be around them. I also LIKE men and like to be around them. In social nudism, the sex of participants makes no difference. NOR does the sexual orientation of participants. Being labeled as "aloof", I suspect most of these folks are shy (like me!). Also many males are aloof out of fear. It is drilled into male nudists that they will be ON TRIAL to see if they offend someone's tender fears. This can be a woman or a trained male. I have stories.

I may seem to be a bit bitter. That is not the case. I have seen a change over the years. I am an older male (not as old as my dear friend fuzzy nuts however) and have seen some startling changes. I welcome the growing acceptance of homosexuals in nudism. I do not welcome the change in the fear MEN have about another male being a predator after their women. To a lesser degree, I do not welcome the change in women who feel "violated" by unknown men who seem creepy. I am not mocking the feelings of anyone but I am minimizing those feelings. I am saying, don't confuse admiration with lust. Lust may be present, but how can it be a problem unless contact is made?

I have, in my younger years, been stared at and lusted over at resorts and beaches as well as other social nudist situations. That's ok with me. I always appreciated the compliment! If someone is nude in public one should expect to be stared at and evaluated. Take pride in it! I've been paid for being nude in non-nudist situations, so why should I object if it is a freeby? Uh, Oh! Someone grabbed on the "paid" part of this. I was a photo and video model (including a Blacks Beach video). It was unobjectionable except for the most puritanical of people. Puritanical views are another new facet I've noticed in social nudism by-the-way. If you object to being seen nude, why are you nude in public? If you think you are being lusted after be sure you are actually attractive.

I admit that males are culturally more able to "defend" themselves from over-the-line assults. It is actually nonsense. Any woman has the same defense they have had for some time now. They can call for assistance. A loud voice is useful. I must add though that many of the subjects of "offensiveness" are perfectly innocent. I have known women who liked to get naked with men but only wanted to titulate the ones they planned on titulating. There are names for them. On the other hand, I have known many, many more women who actually belive in the freedom that nudism brings to their lives. None of these women have ever objected to admiring (even lingering) looks. Please notice that I am not saying that oggling cannot be objectionable. It can be, but is often misdiagnosed.

I am familiar with oggling. I used to work with a general public who were out to enjoy themselves (think Disney or Sea World, etc.). I have women and, less than I would like, men kiss me, fondle me, give me their numbers, etc. And, no you nasty people who were thinking of it, it wasn't THAT long ago. Did that bother me? No. Not a bit. I felt good about it. I was clothed at the time (in short-shorts;)) which perhaps hid some of my age related faults, but even recently I have been fondled (quite pleasantly) in a nudist hot tub. Not a mainline nudist event as that would be in poor taste. I liked being appealing to someone! I'll add that it was tentative at first and very polite as he checked my response carefully. I responded in kind, though not so tentatively.

It is my belief that anyone who goes to a nude beach and is nude must expect to be looked at. I do not object being photographed either. If someone gets pleasure from my natural and innocent nude body, it is perhaps a step forward towards them being more secure and open about thier body and nudity. My photos are on the internet and I see them occasionally, but I don't feel horrified, I feel happy that my best beauty was captured and other people still can enjoy it.

We are supposed to remove our hang-ups, anxiety, social pressures, etc. along with our clothes! On one of my most memorable visits to Desert Shadows, I became friendly with many people. Some I inspected visually and enjoyed their nude bodies as works of art. One particular female friend had perfect beautiful breasts and I know she noticed that I noticed. It did not cause any problems with her or her husband and our friendship was not changed. I think that the human body is the greatest of all art. Many couples and individuals also observed me and even commented on my tan and body in a totally unobjectionable way (even to nude-prudes). Why then do some of us object to being looked at? We say we find nothing objectionable about the nude body. It seems like we find nothing objectionable about the nude body as long as no one is looking at it. Silly I say.

Sure, being a homosexual means that I am not too interested in the women around me but even that does not negate my appreciation of their natural bodies and the beauty that can be found there. I find the male body to be more attractive than the female, but that is not always the case! Beauty is beauty. Male or female. Lust is a different matter but wholy internal to the person experiencing it. Evaluating bodies is normal. I cannot understand why people who engage in social nudism object to being seen sexually by another person. Nor can I understand why nudists object to being photographed. It seems to be contrary to the idea of the "healthyness" of nudism if one is afraid of being known as a nudist or, God forbid, being seen nude.

Dave, none of this is directed to you specifically. I just clasped on to the seemingly objectionable idea of being labeled as "homosexual" as not desireable. As I am often seen as aloof (or rude!) because of my shyness and other things, I felt a tingle from that too. I just do not understand how the enormous power of women in nudism can be so easily dismissed. They have many nudist men "by the b_lls" and exploit it unashamedly. I say this as someone who has been in the nudist lifestyle for many years and can state that it has not always been so. The local nudist resort I used to belong to was run by women, ruled by women, and all males were evaluated by women. I could bring a female guest, but a male guest was subject to additional conditions. It was not always so at that club.

As to being pigeon holed, I am usually pigeon holed as "harmless". What a come down! All-in-all, I'd rather be seen again as hot and be stared at and photographed and, occasionally (if I was alone) hit on. I have never been approached rudely....ever!

Hi to Dr Dude!

Hugs,
Liam

[JessicaA]

My experience is that there are much more females in real resorts/clubs than on internet, wich is logical since each time a female post something in some kind of nude forum she get alot of "stupid" private messages..

[Sanslines]

I don't think there are not enough women in the nudism. The problem is they do not think it is safe anyhow. Try Nudistonly.com. The site is set up only for true nudists, rejecting sexual life style. You may find there are many female nudists there:

http://www.nudistonly.com

The site that you are referring to ie 'nudistonly' uses ths same data base as another well known nudist site called 'nudistfriends'. As was discussed in another thread, nudistfriends is not a genuine nudist site. Most of the profiles are not from sincere nudists. It is also very suspicious that the same data base is used for a vareity of so called nudist sites. I do not know where you got your information from, but you might want to take a closer look at the site that you are promoting and I do think that you will see that it is not a genuine nudist site.

[chuckincville]

Chuck,
.....
Four reasons I've learned that women don't go --

1) Body image, body self-assurance. "I won't fit in, my body isn't...." The Naturist Society has put out two videos - one is "Body Positive", the other "Real Women, Real Stories". Both deal directly with the issue. You'll have to Google around to find them. That can be overcome. Meet real nudists that don't fit the "perfect body image" -- if if you meet them in a non-nudist environment.

2) They question the motivation behind their male partner's interest. This can be very difficult to overcome -- if the husband has suggested participation in swinging, or is very heavily into online porn, for instance, the wife may have strong suspicions as to why he wants to go. A man may have presented these other things to his wife/girlfriend previously, and so the door is closed on the nudist idea now.

3) The impression that we nudists are sex-crazed. The only way you can convince her that we're not is to meet up with nudists in a non-nudist environment -OR- somehow get her to make a visit. Remember, all of these nudist materials - websites, pamphlets, videos, etc., are propaganda, and if she has her "propaganda shields up" you're not going to have much success at that.

4) Moral upbringing. Nudity is an intimacy not to be shared, except with a partner? Going nude is wrong? Almost impossible to counter. I tell people who have wives/girlfriends in that situation = if you respect the institution of marriage more than nudism, give up and toss in the towel. Find some other common area.


Usuallylurk ---
Thank you for your post -- It's just what this topic needs (in my opinion) -- Reasons with Possible Solutions.
My wife has objected on three of your four reasons. She is somewhat willing to concede a little on #1 "body image" and # 3 "nudist are sex crazed" but we are stuck right now on #4 type of "Moral upbringing".
I certainly do "respect" (and value our) marriage more than nudism" however I'm not ready to "give up and toss in the towel"!
I purchased the video "Real Women, Real Stories", from TNS, not realizing that it's main theme was "body acceptance" - I/we thought it was good. But, for the most part, it didn't answer the questions of what motivated them to try naturism and what they went thru mentally and emotionally to get there.
The reason I'm NOT ready to throw in the towel is that on that video there are two former nuns. Having been raised a catholic I am very familiar with the type of individual who would enter the convent. I can't imagine that many of them would come from families that would even think of nudism - and their lifestyle as nuns would have them clothed head to toe with total "modesty". My wife thinks that perhaps, having left the convent, they just "went wild" and went in a "totally opposite direction" -- The video doesn't answer that, nor can I -(except the"just went wild" comment seems to suggest a thinking that nudist are total libertines -see #3).
So my thinking is that - with all the millions of naturist out there there has to be someone who has worked through their strict "moral upbringing" to get to the point of being able to enjoy this experience!
Anyone have any thoughts or experience on this one?
Still hopeful,
chuck

[krcNY]

My mother was very strict with our attire when we were growing up. She even made us wear long nightgowns and got mad when I would not sleep in them.

To me it is a comfort thing. When I am comfortable enough to be nude...I will be.

What I do not like is being pushed into doing something I am not in the mood for. (I am not saying erc pushes me, but it sounds like some men here do) Sometimes I just like what I am wearing and feel "feminine" and comfortable at the same time. Sometimes I will be running in and out of the house and it is just easier to stay dressed.

What I do like, is just hanging out with erc and watching a movie, or outdoor fire nude. Just holding hands and conversing....it does not always lead to sex.

I still think baby steps at home then to expand from there. Get the comfort level going at home and enjoy together time with conversation, board games, a good movie..etc. Don't make an issue out of it.

Maybe it was rebellion in my case. erc and I married when we were young and we could make our own rules in our own home.....so we did :)

[chuckincville]

krcNY
Thanks for your post and advice. I understand the "go slow" - start with small things idea.
Trying not to push the issue - my wife also hates to be pushed!! To her credit she has been wonderfully patient with this (once the initial shock has passed)!
It sounds like you and your husband began your nudist experience early on in our marriage/relationship. You didn't say if you are involved with "social nudism". If you are, what prompted you're decision -- what process did you go thru - was it diffucult for you?
Thanks
chuck

[Agde]

...we are stuck right now on #4 type of "Moral upbringing"
...their lifestyle as nuns would have them clothed head to toe with total "modesty".
Chuckincville, if you are Catholic, the Vatican is quite helpful on the "morality" question. You can get a sense of the issues by looking at the Vatican Catechism text concerning "modesty" (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8R.HTM).

The basic Catechism argument is that clothing can assist morality by quieting in others any "risk of unhealthy curiosity" and, in oneself, by guiding "how one looks at others and behaves toward them", thus ensuring mutual dignity. The potential evil is not in the body God created, whether clothed or unclothed, but rather in words and deeds involving things like "lustful thought" or "carnal desire". Since "the forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another," the important thing is not clothing, but rather "respect for the human person." Naturists couldn't agree more about treating each other with unequivocal dignity, so Catholics whose "purity of spirit" does not require the crutch of clothing to treat others with respect are impeccably moral, if not more solidly saintly than the norm. Even for us protestants, its nice to know Rome is in tune with naturist principles -- perhaps all naturists would do well to read and live up to Vatican principles on this subject -- but for catholics, you not only get to feel secure morally as Catholic and nudist, but you can impress your priest by citing Vatican theology!

btw, I was originally put on to this by a young priest who was a member of our nudist beach volleyball group and two summers ago I met a group of four nuns at a naturist resort in Italy -- none of whom felt naturism in itself was cause for confession. :) There are of course something like 4 million Catholics in France who periodically participate in some naturist activity, another 4 million in Germany who say they regularly practice naturism, and approximately another million Catholic naturists in Portugal.

[sweetnudistgirl]

I think that here in America, part of the problem is society has tied nudity and sex together so much that women are afraid to be nude in public for fear of being labeled a tramp or slut, when infact, it is the exact opposite.

[auty]

I was having this very discussion with a friend the other day. Women's body issues? Partly, but they aren't so important. He was saying ultra hot females attract other ultra hot females ehh yes and no. When the guys who act as predators...nobody take offense learn a different way to behave, maybe we'll have something going that's good. I for one laugh it off when a guy starts his spiel, too much and I laugh in his face though. Not nice, I know, my only other recourse is walk away. Nobody has done it on here, on NudistFriends oh yeah! I try to have men and women interact, if it means I'm the "sacrificial lamb" lol hardly a lamb, okay.

[krcNY]

krcNY
Thanks for your post and advice. I understand the "go slow" - start with small things idea.
Trying not to push the issue - my wife also hates to be pushed!! To her credit she has been wonderfully patient with this (once the initial shock has passed)!
It sounds like you and your husband began your nudist experience early on in our marriage/relationship. You didn't say if you are involved with "social nudism". If you are, what prompted you're decision -- what process did you go thru - was it diffucult for you?
Thanks
chuck

We got married in 89 but did not try Social Nude Venues until I was pregnant in 2002. We went to a non-landed club for a swim...I was one of only 4 females there and the only one pregnant. The guys pulled their chairs closer to watch my belly and ask questions (they never saw a nude pregnant before). It was not an experience that made me want to go back anytime soon.

In Sept 2004 we finally went to a C/O campground in CT and I totally loved it. I fit right in with all the other Mom's and had a great time.

I hope this answers your question....and yes it took 13 years before I would consider going to a nude venue.

[wiz]

My experience is that there are much more females in real resorts/clubs than on internet, wich is logical since each time a female post something in some kind of nude forum she get alot of "stupid" private messages..

From what perspective are they "stupid". If you are married it is one perspective single is another. What about the perspective of the male that is looking for a relationship? Is it stupid to want someone in your life?

I'd be the first to admit that no every male on such forums is looking for a lasting relationship. The question is how does one determine that if all messages are painted with the STUPID sign?

In any event no matter where I go the balance seems to alway be stacked against the male. Only one place where nudist/skinny dippers hang out do I see that balance reversed. Tat due to only one woman commonly being there.

Dave

[krcNY]

My Opinion of "Stupid" pm's are the ones that are come-on or really lame pick up lines. Before I stated I was married...I was bombarded with them on a daily basis. Even when I stated I was married to a moderator...I would still get a few. Even still as a Moderator myself...I still end up with some.

With the amount that we get; it is hard to read them all....usually I hit delete if it is not someone I have conversed with on the forums for a while.

[Stu2630]

I think the question posed in this thread is fascinating - it would make a brilliant PhD thesis for some student of psychology or anthropology, if it hasn't already been done.

One possible avenue may be - and this is only speculation - that there is an element of primeval male status/dominance, or showmanship related to mating, at work, just like we see in the animal kingdom. Males like to get themselves seen in all their glory to show that they are healthy, strong and good mating stock, whereas females tend to take a lower profile. We see this throughout nature ranging from guppy fish to peacocks and even some species of primate.

Just an idea.

Stu

[Boreas]

Interesting idea Stu. I think that might be a factor. It does seem that men are generally more comfortable with nudity than women.

And krc, you hit it right on the head. Genuine PMs and even genuine interest in friendships online are different from those "stupid PM's".

Wiz, at the risk of getting off topic. How on earth are things stacked against the male?

[chuckincville]

We got married in 89 but did not try Social Nude Venues until I was pregnant in 2002. We went to a non-landed club for a swim...I was one of only 4 females there and the only one pregnant. The guys pulled their chairs closer to watch my belly and ask questions (they never saw a nude pregnant before). It was not an experience that made me want to go back anytime soon.

In Sept 2004 we finally went to a C/O campground in CT and I totally loved it. I fit right in with all the other Mom's and had a great time.

I hope this answers your question....and yes it took 13 years before I would consider going to a nude venue.

krcNY
Yes, that's what I was looking for -- Thanks.
Sorry about your "pregnant experience" - now ther's an intimacy not to be shared with just anyone!
Now lets see, my wife is not yet ready to go nude around the house - add another 13 years ---- looks like we'll be visiting you at a resort sometime in our late 70's -- are these resorts wheelchair accessable? Good Grief!! Oh well, maybe in our next life, eh?

Agde - Great Post! -- Thanks.

"Stupid PMs" -- Seems there ought to be a "PM Protocol" posted somewhere. I guess it's just common sense/courtesy but after reading this thread I would NEVER PM a women for fear of being misunderstood. I'm not looking for that kind of friendship - I have all the woman I need or want - thank you very much!

Stu -
"Fascinating" indeed!
By the way who's the "guppy fish" and who's the "peacock"??

[walter05]

My wife found that to be a problem when clothed. All sorts of people ask all sorts of questions and point at pregnant women.

It may be more invasive when everyone is nude.

[Sanslines]

My Opinion of "Stupid" pm's are the ones that are come-on or really lame pick up lines. Before I stated I was married...I was bombarded with them on a daily basis. Even when I stated I was married to a moderator...I would still get a few. Even still as a Moderator myself...I still end up with some.

With the amount that we get; it is hard to read them all....usually I hit delete if it is not someone I have conversed with on the forums for a while.


I think that you will most probably find that most of those men who send messages to women are not active contributors to this forum. They will never post anything here and will always attempt to converse in 'stealth mode'.

[krcNY]

I think that you will most probably find that most of those men who send messages to women are not active contributors to this forum. They will never post anything here and will always attempt to converse in 'stealth mode'.

Very True, usually you can get a feel for the person by reading the forum posts....if they have no posts...I do not even give them the time of day
.:)

[Nu]

This forum is a premiere site in the promotion of nudism.

Participants should not be discouraged by obnoxious PM's.

Suggest that an outright,obnoxious PM should be reported to moderators immediately,resulting in the poster being suspended immediately.

A questionable PM would result in a one-time warning to the poster, followed by a suspension for a repeat offense.

[Sanslines]

I think that here in America, part of the problem is society has tied nudity and sex together so much that women are afraid to be nude in public for fear of being labeled a tramp or slut, when infact, it is the exact opposite.

This brings to mind another question. Why are so many people so very much influenced by what other people think about them? Here in America, the majority feel this need to keep up with the jones' and this is a major problem. It takes a strong and independant person to stand up and just be themselves without allowing others to either judge them or decide what is right or wrong for them.

[nacktman]

I have been reading the posts on this thread and I think may points have been brought forth as to why there aren't more women in SOCIALnudism.

Nudism as a philosophy and a lifestyle has just as many female as male adherents - it is the social aspect where the disparity occurs ... this is due to many things - some of which have been touched on here.

The most recent international polling of women has over 40% saying they prefer to be nude (the women in the USA drove that number down in Europe the number is a lot higher).

So maybe we could discuss the why's and how to's of letting women feel more comfortable in social settings in general and as they become more comfortable in social settings the natural trend toward being nude will take care of the 'disparity'.

Just an idea.

[Centauri4]

It took my wife ten years of knowing me and seven years of marriage before consenting to a weekend social nudist experience. Everything worked out wonderfully due in large part to the friendly staff and members of Whitetail Resort in Virginia, but all along her "argument" against nudism was, "Why be nude?" I think she believes, still after several additional experiences, life is tough enough WITH clothing let alone without it.

Going to the grocery store, shopping mall, post office, or even work on a daily basis, sometimes requires real focus and concentration in leaving, getting there, getting business accomplished, getting home and arriving safely with the correct change in your pocket. My wife's opinion was that doing any of these things without clothing would simply attract additional, unwanted attention, but she DOES have imagination; so its not what was stopping her.

She believed, and still may a bit, that nudity would only stimulate men's 'perv gene' and she wasn't going to give anyone the pleasure of seeing her nude! (as long as she suspected that was "our" main reason for wanting to see "her" nude)

I also suggest that many women do not know organized social nudity exists here in the United States, or for whatever reasons are embarassed to admit they *might* enjoy it. As with any activity, if there is only a 1% chance I will enjoy something, then there is also only a 1% chance I will ever try it! Beyond basic probabilities, the single biggest adder *might* be the first hand testimony of a female friend who enjoys (or enjoyed) it; and my wife did not have that either.

What finally helped convince her to try nudism was, A). her love for me (I had a birthday approaching), and B). the utter and complete lack of anything else to do that weekend!!

As soon as the likelihood of enjoyment goes up to 33% or greatly exceeds the enjoyment probability of other available activities, putting for the "effort" to try social nudism crosses into the realm of weekend attractiveness. Oh, and there is effort required!

Shaving, grooming, packing, checking the shaved areas, re-grooming, chacking and re-packing the towels, accessories and books.... You know, the things we GUYS all do also!

It was clearly stated to me, "I am going waaaaaay outside my comfort zone for you! Because I love you, but that is the only reason."

We still miss opportunities for both weekend and weeknight (Friday) nudist activities because our resort is a hour drive away! It is often the case that I am willing to go but either she is not or the following day's activities demand we be rested and ready, not smiling but totally exhausted.

[wiz]

I think the question posed in this thread is fascinating - it would make a brilliant PhD thesis for some student of psychology or anthropology, if it hasn't already been done.

Maybe. More likely we will get a thesis that simply mirrors the students current mind frame with respect to nudity. Unfortunately objectivity is a dying quality at many universities.


One possible avenue may be - and this is only speculation - that there is an element of primeval male status/dominance, or showmanship related to mating, at work, just like we see in the animal kingdom.

That is almost a no brainer. Lets face it if a guy wants a relationship with a female he has to initiate the seduction. Animal kingdom or not we as males have to do all the work if we are to have any expectation of success with woman.


Males like to get themselves seen in all their glory to show that they are healthy, strong and good mating stock, whereas females tend to take a lower profile. We see this throughout nature ranging from guppy fish to peacocks and even some species of primate.

Errr obviously you have not taken a good long look at the average male naturist. Healthy, strong and of good mating stock does not apply. I'm pretty free to say that because honestly I'm far from Healthy, Strong at this age.

I see part of the problem here in that many times these woman are simply being pursued by guys who are the opposite of what they are looking for.

Just an idea.

Stu

Dave

[wiz]

She believed, and still may a bit, that nudity would only stimulate men's 'perv gene' and she wasn't going to give anyone the pleasure of seeing her nude! (as long as she suspected that was "our" main reason for wanting to see "her" nude)


I think this is a big issue and is simply the result of woman not understanding men. Franky I'm a male and can't always explain why I find one woman attractive over another. So it is not like I can help woman understand the reality that men can get that perv gene working over sometimes silly things. It is pretty obvious that the Eskimos get that gene working even if they have to remain clothed for a good part of their life.

If any thing with nudity there is actually less there to get that gene working. Less bling, less makeup, no high heel shoes, no fancy pockets on the genes to sway back and forth.

Dave

[Sanslines]

I see part of the problem here in that many times these woman are simply being pursued by guys who are the opposite of what they are looking for.


Dave


Well, I dunno about this. So many women go after bad boys, complain about those bad boys when they are bad, dump the bad boy and then go right out and find another bad boy. The repeat pattern goes on and on. Another point is that if women are complaining about being bothered by men, then why can't men just ignore them and leave them alone. Is this what they really want? Who really knows.

[krcNY]

I consider myself a simple girl. I do not go out of my way to attract guys, I am not a natural flirt or anything like that. But I did get overrun with PM's at one point.

Just by being female here on the forums...I have been propositioned for different things here on the forums. That is what we are complaining about and why we are not here looking.

Personally, I like a man who treats me as I treat him with Respect and I think most women are looking for that. Respect and common courtesy are very important to most of the females I know.

I know a few girls who do like the Bad Boys and to me they act like teenage girls. But they are not the norm that I know.

[SpiderThug]

I consider myself a simple girl. I do not go out of my way to attract guys, I am not a natural flirt or anything like that. But I did get overrun with PM's at one point.

Just by being female here on the forums...I have been propositioned for different things here on the forums. That is what we are complaining about and why we are not here looking.



I feel with you. Seven years ago in a chatroom, a few of the women there would tell me about how men are tactless in their approach so one night when the fellas said that they could tell the difference between a male and female, I left and came back into the chat as a woman. Within a minute, I had received so many sexual advances with no tact or thought at all.

Couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor women on the internet.

[Sanslines]

I consider myself a simple girl. I do not go out of my way to attract guys, I am not a natural flirt or anything like that. But I did get overrun with PM's at one point.

Just by being female here on the forums...I have been propositioned for different things here on the forums. That is what we are complaining about and why we are not here looking.

Personally, I like a man who treats me as I treat him with Respect and I think most women are looking for that. Respect and common courtesy are very important to most of the females I know.

I know a few girls who do like the Bad Boys and to me they act like teenage girls. But they are not the norm that I know.

Well, perhaps the difference is that you are in the mid Hudson "capitol" region of NYS where there tends to be more of a preponderance of professional people. If you generally head west to some of the other towns and cities in NYS you will see a difference. There are decent men and women throughout the world as well as plenty of male and female less then desirables. I have found that women who tend to be strong willed and independant are the ones who really understand and insist upon respect and being treated well. Others may not understand or know how to handle it if they have grown up and are surrounded by dominant men who are disrespectful. The understanding of respect is also very much dependant upon what generation a woman is from. What women from much older generations might consider as respect is certainly considered as disrespectful and downright oppressive by the younger generations. The enormous divorce rate and reasons for why so many men and women seem to go round and round with marriages that fail might be the basis for another interesting thread.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

I have customers on Long Island, in New York Cit, in Albany, in Rochester, and Bufflo. I generally find that most men and women prefer people who treat them with respect.

Outside of New York state, I find that also.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines;

I have customers on Long Island, in New York Cit, in Albany, in Rochester, and Bufflo. I generally find that most men and women prefer people who treat them with respect.

Outside of New York state, I find that also.

Walter,

This comment is not directed at you but it is made as a generality. Of course everyone will say that they wish to be treated with respect. It is the popular and right thing to say. Who would dare say that they wish to be treated with disrespect. However, the definition of exactly what is considered respect varies enormously. As an additional thought, we all say that we treat women with respect. However, do we as a nation really treat women with respect when we ( a male dominated society ) place women under constant and enormous pressure to look and act a certain way? Let's be honest here. Our society will always prefer a young and attractive women over an older and yet more knowledgeable woman any day of the week. We worship youth and beauty and yet we always state the politically correct statement of 'what is inside is what matters the most'. This is pure hypocrisy. All women deserve respect and yet in so many cases the older, heavier, less attractive women do not get the same level of respect and courtesy that younger and attractive women do. So I ask, do we as a male dominated nation really give women the acceptance, equality (which can be considered a form of respect), and respect that they deserve or do we still discriminate and disrespect women and why do so many women accept this?

A basic definition of respect from Webster's is "to show concern, compassion, and to relate to'. If most men and women really want this, then are they also willing to give this? Is our society a very concerned and compassionate society or have we become more self centered. A good book to read is by Professor Jean Twenge of San Diego State University. Her book is entitled "Generation Me: Why Today's Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled, and More Miserable Than Ever Before". Her book is a treatise on why Generation Me tends to lack empathy, react aggressively to criticism, and favor self promotion over helping others.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines;

I have customers on Long Island, in New York Cit, in Albany, in Rochester, and Bufflo. I generally find that most men and women prefer people who treat them with respect.

Outside of New York state, I find that also.

Walter,

If so many men and women prefer to be treated with respect (and I belive that all men and women will say that they do) they why are there so many disrespectful people out there? Why would someone who wishes to be treated with respect turn around and treat another with disrespect? Again, I believe that this all boils down to individual definitions and understandings of what exactly constitutes respect.

Do people say the word 'respect' because it sounds good or do they really know what they are asking for? If they understand what they are asking for, then why is our divorce rate so enormously high if people really know what they want in a relationship?

[tinhfwv]

I’ll bet that almost every man on this forum agrees that we should respect women, but we might get a disagreement on how that respect is best shown. In the context of this forum, I think that respect is best shown by being welcoming and kind, and not hitting on them via their PM mailbox.

I do understand the urge to PM. These threads are well populated with the recurring story of the reluctant female partner, as well as the quest to find a female who is comfortable with her nudity, or advice on how to make a “convert”. To be in the virtual presence of women who are already comfortable with their nudity can feel like being in the same room as the Holy Grail. However, they’re not the Holy Grail, they’re fellow human beings who would like to network with others who have similar views regarding the wearing of clothes, without having to fend off unsolicited advances.

The same type of respect applies to physical (as opposed to virtual) nudist venues, such as beaches. As on virtual forums, if men want there to be more women at those venues, they need to do what they can to make those venues as enjoyable and supportive for the women as possible. At the physical venues, there’s also the additional issue of vulnerability. In our society (probably in most societies), women generally feel much more vulnerable than men, for a variety of reasons. Because of this, I believe it takes much more courage/confidence for the average woman to go publicly without her clothes than it does the average man. So, the physical venues most importantly need to feel safe. Again, men need to be aware of this, and do their part to provide that sense of safety. And a big part of feeling safe is knowing one’s privacy and personal space is honored.

[wiz]

I’ll bet that almost every man on this forum agrees that we should respect women, but we might get a disagreement on how that respect is best shown. In the context of this forum, I think that respect is best shown by being welcoming and kind, and not hitting on them via their PM mailbox.

Well that disagreement on how respect is shown is pretty obvious. From my perspective it is far easier to respect someone that can look you in the eye and say NO than it is to respect someone that cowers and slinks away.

As to the PM mailbox, who says one has to read it? Hell on my normal E-Mail accounts I get all sorts of spam that I never read. Is it annoying, yes at times but I seldom get too over heated about it.


I do understand the urge to PM. These threads are well populated with the recurring story of the reluctant female partner, as well as the quest to find a female who is comfortable with her nudity, or advice on how to make a “convert”.

To a certain extent woman on this forum have to expect that the fact that they are outnumbered here will lead to many curious men pursuing them. It isn't any different than any other social event, if you are out there and can be noticed men will take the plunge.


To be in the virtual presence of women who are already comfortable with their nudity can feel like being in the same room as the Holy Grail. However, they’re not the Holy Grail, they’re fellow human beings who would like to network with others who have similar views regarding the wearing of clothes, without having to fend off unsolicited advances.

This is just total non-sense, if it wasn't for unsolicited advances there would be a lot of lonely men in the world. More so the population of the world wouldn't be as large as it is. Woman have to fend off unsolicited advances everywhere else on this planet, what makes this place any different? What is obvious is that woman with the capacity and backbone to do so can be very successful in limiting those queries.

The same type of respect applies to physical (as opposed to virtual) nudist venues, such as beaches. As on virtual forums, if men want there to be more women at those venues, they need to do what they can to make those venues as enjoyable and supportive for the women as possible. At the physical venues, there’s also the additional issue of vulnerability.

This issue of vulnerability bothers me as it is an issue of degrees in my mind. I have a friend in the Carribean that I correspond with frequently. She recently related that going to night school is an issue for her as simply she feel very unsafe after dark. Clearly these sorts of feelings are not connected to the clothes you are wearing at the time.

Rather it is an issue of what you are surrounded with. The problem is that a good portion of nudist men simply represent a fringe of society that no one would be happy to have around. In a way this statement supports your position, but I see the problem as one of a defect that can not be corrected.


In our society (probably in most societies), women generally feel much more vulnerable than men, for a variety of reasons. Because of this, I believe it takes much more courage/confidence for the average woman to go publicly without her clothes than it does the average man. So, the physical venues most importantly need to feel safe. Again, men need to be aware of this, and do their part to provide that sense of safety. And a big part of feeling safe is knowing one’s privacy and personal space is honored.

Well to repeat I don't think that woman generally feel vulnerable, many have been conditioned to think that but I don't see it as a general case.

As to the men doing anything to provide a sense of safety that is totally bogus. The problem lies within the mind of the one fretting over nothing. Consider some of the choices a guy has when going to the beach or other venue.

1. He can go and talk to some of the ladies in attendance. - Doing so he will likely have a few labels attached to him depending on the posture he takes. None of these would be considered flattering. He will be called old, young, weak, sex crazed, a perv, depressed, to forward, psychotic and a host of other things. All based on delivery, the same guy potentially getting grossly different labels depending on that delivery.

2. He can simply go off to a secluded area to enjoy the beach by himself. - Here he will likely be labeled a loner, freak, anti social, a drug addict, a masturbator, a serial killer or worst. Mind you we are talking about somebody new on a beach that hasn't been there before.

3. Set up a towel in close proximity to someone else but trying to maintain a bit of distance. - Here you get even more disgusting labels attached. You might be perving on the children, there to watch the woman, hopeless, a space invader, a stalker and any other things that might come to someones mind.

The point is the situation is fairly tough for a single male nudist. Some of the above I've seen personally directed at total strangers. Even in this thread we see examples of people judging other before they have any facts what so ever. At times I think if Jim Jones where to offer up the Kool Aid to nudist community and tell them it would free their beaches of all people not exactly like them they would drink it up. Some of this behavior to single male nudist reminds me of what you see in fringe cults.

Dave

[Dario Western]

I think for the most part society has conditioned women to be submissive. Rather than stand up and fight the perverts, they believe that it was their being naked that spurned them in the first place. I think nudist clubs and resorts are better for women than the beaches because they have a set of rules and regulations to protect them from being hit on by sleazoids.

Also, shame on the married men who go to nudist places to hit on women without their wive's knowledge. They will be found out one day, and I will have no sympathy for them at all!

[Boreas]

Dave, how can you comment on whether a woman feels vulnerable or not? As a man, you would not have felt that. Women do often feel vulnerable, clothed or unclothed. If one feels vulnerable clothed you can bet she will feel vulnerable unclothed.

You spoke of the need for unsolicited advances from men being necessary. While I do understand your point, it sounds as though you believe that men are soley responsible for initiating relationships between men and women. This is 2007. That is not the case anymore. Also, condoning unsolicited advances and even encouraging them, seems to imply a hunter/prey relationship.

I do not think men need to create a sense of safety. I do think that men in nudist venues may need to be more aware of this sense of vulnerability and respect that. Women are generally quite capable of creating their own sense of safety.

As for PM's I have no problem receiving PM's, even some that are unsolicited. Most are from people I have "met" online. Even if I have not seen them, I am not automatically opposed to them. The ones I have a problem with are the ones that are from men who seem to have only one reason to frequent a nudist site.....to pick up women. Just because I enjoy social nudity does NOT mean I am free for any man to ogle, pick up or whatever.

[miken]

I think it's more of the society thing where the man has to prove that he is macho; the aggressive male. Hitting on womwn occurs anywhere no matter what the woman may be waering (or not wearing). Guys have to "prove" themselves. It doesn't have to be that way but our society teaches us that just like society teaches us that we have to wear clothes.

[LamontCranston]

Miken says, "I think it's more of the society thing where the man has to prove that he is macho; the aggressive male."

I'm not sure what circles you travel in, but the aggressive male approach doesn't work... if it ever did. I've never felt I have to "prove I'm macho". Remember that life isn't the same as what you see in TV and movies.

[chuckincville]

Dave, how can you comment on whether a woman feels vulnerable or not? As a man, you would not have felt that. Women do often feel vulnerable, clothed or unclothed. If one feels vulnerable clothed you can bet she will feel vulnerable unclothed.

You spoke of the need for unsolicited advances from men being necessary. While I do understand your point, it sounds as though you believe that men are soley responsible for initiating relationships between men and women. This is 2007. That is not the case anymore. Also, condoning unsolicited advances and even encouraging them, seems to imply a hunter/prey relationship.

I do not think men need to create a sense of safety. I do think that men in nudist venues may need to be more aware of this sense of vulnerability and respect that. Women are generally quite capable of creating their own sense of safety.



I think I may be missing something here on this vulnerability thing.
I re-read Dave's comment what I think he's saying is that there are "degrees" of vulnerability and it's all in the mind. I would agree with that. But ... the feelings associated with that are very real and valid - you can't just dismiss that.

Boreas - are you suggesting that men can't comment on vulnerability because they aren't women - and we, as men, can't be or feel vulnerable?
of course we can't know that exact feeling - however, we can relate from our own experiences of various situations - eg - in a difficult sharing of a confidence with a spouse or very close friend or in walking down a dark street in an unsafe neighborhood (an example someone already used).

For sure we can't know what it is to be a woman but we can empathize with you.

[Boreas]

Chuck I agree with you up to a point. I do know there are degrees of vulnerability and that vulnerability is often dependent on the situation. I react to anything that seems to blame the "victim". While I do recognize that men can empathize with women with regards to vulnerability, they cannot fully know the full impact of it. In the same spirit, I as a white middle-class woman cannot truly know what it is like to live as a person of colour or in dire poverty. I can empathise, but I cannot presume to know the true experience.

[chuckincville]

Chuck I agree with you up to a point. I do know there are degrees of vulnerability and that vulnerability is often dependent on the situation. I react to anything that seems to blame the "victim". While I do recognize that men can empathize with women with regards to vulnerability, they cannot fully know the full impact of it. In the same spirit, I as a white middle-class woman cannot truly know what it is like to live as a person of colour or in dire poverty. I can empathise, but I cannot presume to know the true experience.

I guess we agree and diagree.
I think that a concerned and caring male can come closer to your feelings of vulenrability than you give us credit for.

[EricNY]

I have to agree with Boreas Chuck. While you are right, a sensitive Male can come close to those feelings as you said.

You can never truly understand, because you are not a woman. I believe that is what Boreas is saying



I can empathise, but I cannot presume to know the true experience.

[Sanslines]

You can never truly understand, because you are not a woman. I believe that is what Boreas is saying

This whole discussion can be nicely summed up with the following statement: "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus". Men are not women and women are not men and so each cane not fully and completely understand and relate to each other. Men can never understand what it feels like to give birth and women can never understand what male midlife crisis is all about.

[wiz]

Dave, how can you comment on whether a woman feels vulnerable or not? As a man, you would not have felt that. Women do often feel vulnerable, clothed or unclothed. If one feels vulnerable clothed you can bet she will feel vulnerable unclothed.

It is fairly easy to comment on this issue. You should realize that I've had relationships in the past with woman and even though they label me as insensitive and bull headed I do understand the issue. In any event I think you mis the point I failed to make well, that is that the issue of vulnerability is not just and issue for woman at nudist venues. Further this feeling is often not justified by the events they are experiencing.


You spoke of the need for unsolicited advances from men being necessary. While I do understand your point, it sounds as though you believe that men are soley responsible for initiating relationships between men and women. This is 2007. That is not the case anymore. Also, condoning unsolicited advances and even encouraging them, seems to imply a hunter/prey relationship.

Never once in my life has a woman initiated any thing with me. It is certainly the biggest untruth of the century if you ask me.


I do not think men need to create a sense of safety. I do think that men in nudist venues may need to be more aware of this sense of vulnerability and respect that. Women are generally quite capable of creating their own sense of safety.

Not only do they not need to create that sense of safety by virtue of doing so they are very likely to create the environment that woman would rather avoid. It seems to be obvious to me that is the flocking of men, maybe with good intentions, is part of the issue.


As for PM's I have no problem receiving PM's, even some that are unsolicited. Most are from people I have "met" online. Even if I have not seen them, I am not automatically opposed to them. The ones I have a problem with are the ones that are from men who seem to have only one reason to frequent a nudist site.....to pick up women. Just because I enjoy social nudity does NOT mean I am free for any man to ogle, pick up or whatever.

The indications are that you are married so I can understand your attitude with PM's. Apparently though your attitude isn't shared by a lot of woman in such forums. This I don't really understand as it is so easy to simply delete the crap from the mail box. I have to do this every day on my regular mail accounts and like would have to do it here if I even checked the accounts regularly.

Dave

[wiz]

I have to agree with Boreas Chuck. While you are right, a sensitive Male can come close to those feelings as you said.

You can never truly understand, because you are not a woman. I believe that is what Boreas is saying

I have to disagree with this to some extent. It is not like males will ever experience the feelings the same way a woman does, there is a lot of scientific evidence to back that up. There are ways to approach the feelings though. One approach would be to drop a guy off in a gay bar with his hands tied behind his back.

In the end though I still think there is more going on than the issue of vulnerability. Each woman experience the feelings of vulnerability differently. Trying to attach that one reason to the deficit of nudist woman just doesn't add up in my mind.

Then again I've been called insensitive and bull head so many times, by so many different woman, that may I don't get it. To me though it seems like a projection of monsters where few exist. I say few because I do believe that there are problem male nudists, possibly in a great ration than the population at large.

Dave

[krcNY]

Wiz

I feel that I am a strong and independent woman. I usually can think and fend for myself. I do not usually consider myself vulnerable. :) With that in mind.....I would never go to a nude resort of club without my husband. Even when he is there in the pool or if I walk alone to our vehicle for something....guys tend to gravitate over and start conversations. I do not mind, but some keep moving closer and closer and the uncomfortable part starts creeping in. :anxious: I have not had a guy make any crazy advances in person, but that state of being ready to spring away is right there...hanging there.....hanging there....hanging there; which is not a comfortable feeling. So therefore I avoid putting myself in these situations.

I just want to be comfortable and relaxed!

[tinhfwv]

This conversation is all very interesting and well expressed, but, in the end, if we want more women in nudist venues, our views regarding what we (men) think they should be thinking and feeling about this issue just doesn't matter. What they're thinking and feeling does. If you ask someone why they don't feel comfortable doing something, and they tell you why, and you argue with them, how much sense does that make?

[krcNY]

This conversation is all very interesting and well expressed, but, in the end, if we want more women in nudist venues, our views regarding what we (men) think they should be thinking and feeling about this issue just doesn't matter. What they're thinking and feeling does. If you ask someone why they don't feel comfortable doing something, and they tell you why, and you argue with them, how much sense does that make?

Exactly!

Thank you:)

[Sanslines]

This conversation is all very interesting and well expressed, but, in the end, if we want more women in nudist venues, our views regarding what we (men) think they should be thinking and feeling about this issue just doesn't matter. What they're thinking and feeling does. If you ask someone why they don't feel comfortable doing something, and they tell you why, and you argue with them, how much sense does that make?

This is fine if someone can rationally tell you why, but what if someone can't? Do you remember from your dating days (assuming that you are no longer dating) when you asked a woman (women) what she looked for in a man and she replied that 'I don't know but when I see it then I will know'. I have tons of female friends who have all told me the same thing and that is this: "Never try to figure out a woman for if a man attempts this, he will go crazy trying to find out."

If someone tells you that they are uncomfortable doing something, it is best to accept this at face value even if they can not explain why they are uncomfortable for in many cases they might not even know.

[usuallylurk]

Usuallylurk ---
Thank you for your post -- It's just what this topic needs (in my opinion) -- Reasons with Possible Solutions.
My wife has objected on three of your four reasons. She is somewhat willing to concede a little on #1 "body image" and # 3 "nudist are sex crazed" but we are stuck right now on #4 type of "Moral upbringing".


Yeah, and I still don't have an answer for that one.


I purchased the video "Real Women, Real Stories", from TNS, not realizing that it's main theme was "body acceptance" - I/we thought it was good. But, for the most part, it didn't answer the questions of what motivated them to try naturism and what they went thru mentally and emotionally to get there.
The reason I'm NOT ready to throw in the towel is that on that video there are two former nuns. Having been raised a catholic I am very familiar with the type of individual who would enter the convent. I can't imagine that many of them would come from families that would even think of nudism - and their lifestyle as nuns would have them clothed head to toe with total "modesty". My wife thinks that perhaps, having left the convent, they just "went wild" and went in a "totally opposite direction" -- The video doesn't answer that, nor can I -(except the"just went wild" comment seems to suggest a thinking that nudist are total libertines -see #3).


Chuck, I actually KNOW one of the women that was in RWRS, and I also know at least one former nun who is a nudist.

I think it takes a degree of understanding of what type of a woman chooses to become a Catholic nun, and why she might leave.

Back in the 50s and 60s, the large majority of nuns were recruited at very early ages....right out of high school. Girls were in Catholic high schools and encouraged to explore the religous/vocational world. Many did, and a great many got out, and a great many stayed in.

But many who became nuns did so because they thought it would provide a degree of independence -- life within a community, with varying degrees of required obedience. But it also affords a professional career path.

But I think (and have observed) that former nuns who branch out and end up trying nudism are not "going wild" but asserting independence, and are open, and open minded enough, to try new life experiences. Don't forget, a lot of women who entered religious service are professional women -- they're in teaching, up to and including the graduate university levels. They're in nursing. They're in community ministry and counseling -- and not just picking up a guitar and singing "Kum Bay Yah"....

A woman had better the hell be independent and free thinking if she's going to go down those paths, so it isn't surprising that a *former* nun would venture onto the nudist path.

And anyone who chooses the life of a nun today is certainly thinking "against the grain", and it's safe to assume they're thinking independently.


.

[Boreas]

This conversation is all very interesting and well expressed, but, in the end, if we want more women in nudist venues, our views regarding what we (men) think they should be thinking and feeling about this issue just doesn't matter. What they're thinking and feeling does. If you ask someone why they don't feel comfortable doing something, and they tell you why, and you argue with them, how much sense does that make?

:applause:

If someone tells you that they are uncomfortable doing something, it is best to accept this at face value even if they can not explain why they are uncomfortable for in many cases they might not even know.

Another :applause:

Both statements sum it up beautifully.

[wiz]

Wiz

I feel that I am a strong and independent woman. I usually can think and fend for myself. I do not usually consider myself vulnerable. :) With that in mind.....I would never go to a nude resort of club without my husband. Even when he is there in the pool or if I walk alone to our vehicle for something....guys tend to gravitate over and start conversations.

Well if they know you are married that could be a significant issue. I see that you are from the Upstate NY area, may I ask which club you go to? When I use to go to nudist clubs it would have been Stephs Pond, which I'm not even sure if it is open or not anymore. Now maybe being a male I was oblivious, but I don't ever recall seeing such behavior there.


I do not mind, but some keep moving closer and closer and the uncomfortable part starts creeping in. :anxious: I have not had a guy make any crazy advances in person, but that state of being ready to spring away is right there...hanging there.....hanging there....hanging there; which is not a comfortable feeling. So therefore I avoid putting myself in these situations.

Every body has a personal space that they like to keep. It is not just a nudist thing either. At work there is a guy that likes to get a little to close when there is a team of techs working on something. Everybody makes jokes about it, but the fact is the comments result from people feeling uncomfortable.

I would think that it would be fair to say that most people like to expand that zone f personal space around them when nude. Thee is nothing wrong with that. In any event I've never experienced such a feeling, being a less than attractive guy I never have woman coming around to invade my personal space.

Interestingly if I ever did have that problem I'm not to sure if it would be a problem. I guess it is a guy thing to actually want a surplus of woman around.


I just want to be comfortable and relaxed!

Unfortunately I find that sometimes I relax best where people aren't. Sometimes that is hard on ones social life but the peace and quiet of the wild does more for me than a crowd of strangers.

Dave

[wiz]

This is fine if someone can rationally tell you why, but what if someone can't? Do you remember from your dating days (assuming that you are no longer dating) when you asked a woman (women) what she looked for in a man and she replied that 'I don't know but when I see it then I will know'. I have tons of female friends who have all told me the same thing and that is this: "Never try to figure out a woman for if a man attempts this, he will go crazy trying to find out."

I basically gave up on trying to figure woman out. It is especially frustrating when you give them a question that is logical and binary in nature and get no response or a non nonsensical one.


If someone tells you that they are uncomfortable doing something, it is best to accept this at face value even if they can not explain why they are uncomfortable for in many cases they might not even know.

This is very true. It is part of the reason why I think there is more to the issue ( the lack of females) than just the issue of vulnerability. What is frustrating is that you can't ask them what is wrong to get a game plan up and running to defeat the problem. Before you can fix something you have to know what is broke.

This is where a lot of guys go wrong too. They go about trying to change a womans mind before they even know what the problem is. This is in general and not just a nudist related thing.

Dave

[MoonShadow]

krc - I know what you say. When I was younger I had the same problems but then being upfront with the gentlemen, I would let them know that they made me uncomfortable and why. Most would excuse themselves politely and not bother me again; others, well, as is typical in life in general became offended but at least they knew how I felt.

Now that I am an older woman, I don't have these issues. Trust me, when you get to my age, the men don't bother you. LOL Strangely, there is comfort in that.

Good posts Sanslines and tinhfwv.

[krcNY]

Well if they know you are married that could be a significant issue. I see that you are from the Upstate NY area, may I ask which club you go to? When I use to go to nudist clubs it would have been Stephs Pond, which I'm not even sure if it is open or not anymore. Now maybe being a male I was oblivious, but I don't ever recall seeing such behavior there.

My first social experience was at a Non-Landed Club Pool Gathering and there were approx 4 females to 25 males. That left me with no big desire to go back again.

Never been to Stephs Pond but we have been to a couple places in New York and CT. And it was only one or two guys in each place of 100 or more of people (that made me uncomfortable) but I made sure to point them out to ercNY and avoid them for the rest of our stay. Nothing bad happened, but they would either get too close (for my personal zone) or would not let the conversation end and would follow me. Again I would not feel comfortable going without my husband.:)

[Sanslines]

Stephs Pond is still open.

[wiz]

krc - I know what you say. When I was younger I had the same problems but then being upfront with the gentlemen, I would let them know that they made me uncomfortable and why. Most would excuse themselves politely and not bother me again; others, well, as is typical in life in general became offended but at least they knew how I felt.

Now that I am an older woman, I don't have these issues. Trust me, when you get to my age, the men don't bother you. LOL Strangely, there is comfort in that.

I suspect that for men it is just the opposite. We would not be experiencing comfort at the loss of youth and the accompanying lack of desirability.

In many ways this thread has highlighted how men and woman are 180 degrees apart on this one. I can not see a man having a problem being surrounded by 10 to 15 woman on the beach. At least not in the sense of it generating highly negative fears or a sense of vulnerability.


Good posts Sanslines and tinhfwv.

[wiz]

Stephs Pond is still open.


That is good to hear. Maybe after 8 months of winter I can make a trip out there. Stephs is or was a bit rustic but that is what I liked about it. Of course now that I'm older with chronic illness it would be difficult to experience the place in the same way.

Dave

[EricNY]

I can not see a man having a problem being surrounded by 10 to 15 woman on the beach. .

I would have just one problem with that.......

and that would be krcNY :laugh:

[MoonShadow]

wiz wrote:
I suspect that for men it is just the opposite. We would not be experiencing comfort at the loss of youth and the accompanying lack of desirability

That is quite true for most older men. For us older women, it is a reality of life. We are not looked upon with "desirability". Women at my age do want to feel that they are desirable but we learn from life that it isn't what the men in our age group want. The comfort level I indicated is not about whether you are desirable or not, but that you do not get "hit on". I have loss "youth" only in that I no longer have the young fresh-face of youth, but my energy and activity level is certainly not at a loss.

[krcNY]

I would have just one problem with that.......

and that would be krcNY :laugh:

:eye::eye: I'll be watching you closely now :)

[chuckincville]

I suspect that for men it is just the opposite. We would not be experiencing comfort at the loss of youth and the accompanying lack of desirability./QUOTE]

That is quite true for most older men. For us older women, it is a reality of life. We are not looked upon with "desirability". Women at my age do want to feel that they are desirable but we learn from life that it isn't what the men in our age group want. The comfort level I indicated is not about whether you are desirable or not, but that you do not get "hit on". I have loss "youth" only in that I no longer have the young fresh-face of youth, but my energy and activity level is certainly not at a loss.

In a socety that worships youth - and we've all been conditioned that way - it is good to realize that there are advantages to growing older - however small. As to experiencing "comfort at the loss of youth" ? - that could be a topic all by itself.

However, aging is relevant to this thread in that it can be one reason that some - being introduced to nudism later in their lives - are reluctant to try it. Body accepatance issues may top the list of reasons - but fear of being accepted by a younger generation can also enter in - if the group availabe to you is predominately young.

I am a little envious of you who found social nudism early on in your lives.
An yet, "New Beginnings" are always exciting at any age - even when diffuclties are encountered.


"You're not just the age you are - but every age you've ever been." -- just a thought

[Sanslines]

That is good to hear. Maybe after 8 months of winter I can make a trip out there. Stephs is or was a bit rustic but that is what I liked about it. Of course now that I'm older with chronic illness it would be difficult to experience the place in the same way.

Dave

Just be careful to avoid the poison ivy at Stephs.

[walter05]

I am very happily married and a father of six children. I regularly experience younger women who attempt to get my interest. I am actually insulted that they think I would every destroy my family for a night of fun or any other reason. I would prefer they would leave me alone.

[Sanslines]

I too am offended that women constantly try to flirt with me and pick me up. The married women at the clubs are the worst. Many are doing this just to make their husband's jealous and to cause trouble. Why can't they just leave us men alone? Why it's outrageous behavior!

[EricNY]

I too am offended that women constantly try to flirt with me and pick me up. The married women at the clubs are the worst. Many are doing this just to make their husband's jealous and to cause trouble. Why can't they just leave us men alone? Why it's outrageous behavior!


Where the heck are you and Walter going? I have not seen this at the clubs we have visited

[walter05]

I have not been to any of the clubs. So I can't refer to them.

However, I travel a lot on business. People assume that the business traveler has money. This is a big mistake. The one with the money often sends the one without to travel.

None the less, the airlines, less often than they used to, provide first class upgrades and other perks.

Hotels and rental car companies provide other perks.

When I am on business trips, it is not uncommon to have young women attempt to get my interest.

[Sanslines]

Where the heck are you and Walter going? I have not seen this at the clubs we have visited

If you think that this is bad, there is a beach on Lake Ontario that myself and others would visit. The situation became so bad that we men HAD to have all of the woman lay down in a row in front to shield and protect us from the men and women who would roam the beach and attempt to pick us up. It was an aweful experience and the women in our group would look at us, laugh, and say 'now you know exactly what it feels like to be a woman in a nudist environment'.

I have also been at airports, where women would sit down and start conversations and flirt, at shopping malls, restaurants, etc. Why it gets so bad sometimes that it really seems unsafe to go out

[EricNY]

The situation became so bad that we men HAD to have all of the woman lay down in a row in front to shield and protect us from the men and women who would roam the beach.....

............ Why it gets so bad sometimes that it really seems unsafe to go out

C'mon you gotta be pulling my leg :D

[Sanslines]

Nope, no leg pulling here. The beach situation was real and we really did need the women to form a wall of protection. The women actually laughed at us for it was a real role reversal. Men generally chase men but it is not unheard of for women to aggressively chase after men. Some women just can't take NO for an answer. I am sure you have been to clubs and have heard the gossip about the 'cute club guy' that 'woman chase after'. One Summer at the club we had a guy who was working as a cook and women would get so jealous and compete with each other to see who could hook him. Poor guy! It was terrible to watch.

[Boreas]

I guess women are pure evil. ;)

I still find it difficult to follow when men try to decide and discuss why women feel uncomfortable in nude venues, or just with nudity. It is like a dominant group telling the subordinate group what they should think and feel. Why not just listen to what women are saying. It is a complicated issue. While many of us are self-confident and rarely feel vulnerable, many women experience a certain vulnerability daily. Even those of us who are self-reliant and confident can easily be flung into vulnerability under the right circumstances.

It is sadly a fact of life in some respects. Changing societal attitudes both help and hinder the process. The best thing you decent guys can do is be respectful and help welcome nervous women. Of course I know I am probably preaching to the choir here.

[wiz]

In a socety that worships youth - and we've all been conditioned that way - it is good to realize that there are advantages to growing older - however small. As to experiencing "comfort at the loss of youth" ? - that could be a topic all by itself.

I'm growing older and frankly I can't see any advantage in it. The only thing that I see of value is a bit of awareness and knowledge I wished I had at 26. 26 would have been a good point to stop aging.


However, aging is relevant to this thread in that it can be one reason that some - being introduced to nudism later in their lives - are reluctant to try it. Body accepatance issues may top the list of reasons - but fear of being accepted by a younger generation can also enter in - if the group availabe to you is predominately young.

Actually I suspect that I was a nudist before I even knew what the term was. While I can't say that I was young when I first went to a nudist venue I wasn't old either. In any event I never gave the nudity part of it a second thought. I may have had issues with the social aspects but that certainly is an issue unrelated to nudity.


I am a little envious of you who found social nudism early on in your lives.
An yet, "New Beginnings" are always exciting at any age - even when diffuclties are encountered.

I think what I envy is those that have found a life long friend to share their interests with. I have not successfully introduced, to social/resort nudity, any of the female friends I've come across in life. This is frustrating.

"You're not just the age you are - but every age you've ever been." -- just a thought

To tired to think about that?

[wiz]

I am very happily married and a father of six children. I regularly experience younger women who attempt to get my interest. I am actually insulted that they think I would every destroy my family for a night of fun or any other reason. I would prefer they would leave me alone.

Walter can you bottle what ever it is that you have that causes these young woman to respond that way and ship it up north?

Dave

[wiz]

I have not been to any of the clubs. So I can't refer to them.

However, I travel a lot on business. People assume that the business traveler has money. This is a big mistake. The one with the money often sends the one without to travel.

Boy you nailed that on the head. My business travel is extremely in frequent but in many cases the above reflects reality.

.....

When I am on business trips, it is not uncommon to have young women attempt to get my interest.

In this thread I was referring to the average woman not the err "working type". I only say this due to experience. One experience happened in a hotel bar, where possibly the most beautiful woman in the world walked up to me (probably should have taken that as a warning) and introduced herself. It became very clear that this was a "business" meeting and even more clear involved business way outside my income zone. One needs to read the first part of Walter message to understand that it is very easy to end up traveling on business and be very poor.

Other than things like that I can't recall a 'normal' woman approaching me in such a way. I quoted normal because it doesn't sound right. I'm not sure how to distinguish a woman involved in the worlds oldest profession from those that aren't in prose like this.

Dave

[wiz]

I guess women are pure evil. ;)

I still find it difficult to follow when men try to decide and discuss why women feel uncomfortable in nude venues, or just with nudity. It is like a dominant group telling the subordinate group what they should think and feel. Why not just listen to what women are saying.

Here in lies the problem and it really has nothing to do with nudity or naturism. The problem put simply is that men can listen all day long to woman talking about their emotions or trying to "relate" their point of view on something and simply have zero comprehension. It seems the reverse is the case for woman. I don't say that to incite an argument but to honestly point out that at times we simply don't have the info to go on. There may be words expressed, possibly thoughts but i that stream of info can't be parsed it does a guy no good at all.


It is a complicated issue. While many of us are self-confident and rarely feel vulnerable, many women experience a certain vulnerability daily. Even those of us who are self-reliant and confident can easily be flung into vulnerability under the right circumstances.

It is complicated and I honestly believe that it involves more than just the issues of vulnerability. The problem is that if all of this is a mystery than the rational path is to find a fix. It is a path that men probably have to avoid if a peaceful relationship is wanted.

It is sort of like a guys relationship with an old car. If you have a malfunction you want to get into the machine and find the problem with all the required details. Hopefully it is reparable. There are time though where you just can't put you finger on what is wrong with your automobile, at that point you need to consider having someone else wok on it or trading for a different machine.

Having someone else work on it can be a bit of a violation. Trading the machine in comes with all sorts of taxes and hidden expenses.

It is sadly a fact of life in some respects. Changing societal attitudes both help and hinder the process. The best thing you decent guys can do is be respectful and help welcome nervous women. Of course I know I am probably preaching to the choir here.
I think the funny thing here is that what you just requested above a lot of guys think they are doing. That is they are helping to welcome woman. It is an issue of perception. Most guys would feel very welcome surrounded by woman, in this thread it appears that the very opposite is the case for woman.

I see this as an example of being careful about what you ask for. It might be better to suggest that guys welcome woman but avoid the feeding frenzy.

Dave

[chuckincville]

I'm growing older and frankly I can't see any advantage in it. The only thing that I see of value is a bit of awareness and knowledge I wished I had at 26. 26 would have been a good point to stop aging.

Actually I suspect that I was a nudist before I even knew what the term was. While I can't say that I was young when I first went to a nudist venue I wasn't old either. In any event I never gave the nudity part of it a second thought. I may have had issues with the social aspects but that certainly is an issue unrelated to nudity.

I think what I envy is those that have found a life long friend to share their interests with. I have not successfully introduced, to social/resort nudity, any of the female friends I've come across in life. This is frustrating.

"You're not just the age you are but every age you've ever been"
To tired to think about that?


Wiz-
You illustrate my point. We can't see the advantages because we are contitioned to see youth as the ideal. There are advantages to growing older but as I said that is another topic - and the ones I can think of don't necessarily apply to this thread.

Body acceptance was not an issue for you but it is for many - regardless of age. What I was saying is that it can be a big deal for someone who's older. - for example - my wife and I have both lost considerable weight (& have kept it off for the last 2 yrs) - the skin looses it's elasticity as you get older and we are left with some unattractive loose skin. This is not an issue if you've been involved in social nudism from your youth. But for those being introduced to social nudism later in life it can be a big concern - it wasn't for me but it is for my wife. She is an exercise fanatic - arobics, walking/running, yoga, etc. and she looks great - clothed or unclothed. But she can't see it - so an (aging)body acceptance is a part of what's holding her back - it's not the biggest issue but a part of it.

Envy? Yes, I'm with you on this one! I do envy those who have a life partner who shares the lifestyle with them. It's "frustrating" but it's my dream! I am blessed with an incredibile, wonderful wife!! However, it does't look like she will be accepting social nudism any time soon - if ever. (by the way - what's the temperature in hell today?)
But I continue to hope.

"We are not just the age we are but we're every age we've ever been!"?
One of the truely great things about solo or social nudism is rediscovring that "child within" and re-experiencing the freedom and innocence we reveled in years ago! (The need to trade that for societal acceptance is the sin and shame of our culture.)

[EricNY]

Wiz-

- the skin looses it's elasticity as you get older and we are left with some unattractive loose skin.

:D If this was an issue then no one would be at nude venues:D It seems that people with loose hanging skin, dimply behinds, and wobbly love handles are the majority :laugh:

My wife felt very poorly about herself and her body prior to going to our first nude social experience. She had three children and she had body issues as a result.

Since going she has a very positive outlook on herself and her body. She remarked: "WOW I am normal. I look like everyone else."

It was a life changing experience for her (and our family) for more than one reason. The hardest thing is to overcome that first visit caution though....It is likely to change you too.

[walter05]

None of the women who have approached me were professionals as you put it.

It has also not been more than maybe one and not on all trips, just some.

There are some women who want a man to take care of them. These women are the ones looking for the money. I let them know very quickly that I am not interested and they are wasting their time. They then move on. Still, I am offended to be approached this way.

This does not mean that I understand what it is like to be a woman. I am sure that women are approached more often. I was answering your statements that “I suspect that for men it is just the opposite. We would not be experiencing comfort at the loss of youth and the accompanying lack of desirability.”

My point is that as a general rule, unless someone indicates that he or she wants to be approached, the person should be left alone. Many men and women are not interested and would prefer not to be found so desirable.

Boreas has given me an idea. Perhaps the best way to help women feel more comfortable is for other women to take the lead. If a woman comes to a nudist social setting, another woman may be the best one to walk up and say hello. If the new woman wants to meet others, this woman could introduce her to males and/or females.

[Boreas]

Boreas has given me an idea. Perhaps the best way to help women feel more comfortable is for other women to take the lead. If a woman comes to a nudist social setting, another woman may be the best one to walk up and say hello. If the new woman wants to meet others, this woman could introduce her to males and/or females.

That is probably a good idea. Also a couple approaching a new and apprehensive woman may be good.

There is a big difference in a man who is genuine and a man who is a letch though too. I think most of us could tell the difference pretty quickly.
<!-- / message -->

[nacktman]

I still find it difficult to follow when men try to decide and discuss why women feel uncomfortable in nude venues, or just with nudity. It is like a dominant group telling the subordinate group what they should think and feel. Why not just listen to what women are saying.


Ehh, Did you say something?!:surprised:

Still_Boreas has it (along with the rest of the ladies posting). We fellas really don't have a clue, even those decent and sensitive types of us. We may, and I emphasize MAY, come close at times but it's still no cigar for us so it has been quite amusing to read this thread and offer my half-cents worth.

Just a voice from the peanut gallery.:rolleyes:

[Boreas]

Ehh, Did you say something?!:surprised:

(Boreas) :stick:(nacktman)

This whole thread reminds me of an Oprah show I saw once. Apparently there was this experiment or whatever, in which two families participated, one black and one white. They made each of them up to look like they switched roles and races and then had to go through life for a week as the other race. The white couple did not "get it" about the discrimination people of colour experience. Even when they walked through life as a black family they still had their white sense of entitlement and dismissed any prejudice they saw, rather than experience it. The father in the family had a particularly hard time.

While many men do mean very well, and do try to understand, I don't think men can truly understand the vulnerability women feel at times. We are socialized differently and men traditionally have a position of power and entitlement that blinds them to certain issues.

When I say that women experience vulnerability, I do not mean it is all the time.

Still_Boreas has it (along with the rest of the ladies posting). We fellas really don't have a clue, even those decent and sensitive types of us. We may, and I emphasize MAY, come close at times but it's still no cigar for us so it has been quite amusing to read this thread and offer my half-cents worth.

Just a voice from the peanut gallery.:rolleyes:<!-- / message --><!-- sig --> And a good voice this time. :applause: <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Sanslines]

As Dr Fraser Crane would say "I'm listening!"

[chuckincville]

Ehh, Did you say something?!:surprised:

Still_Boreas has it (along with the rest of the ladies posting). We fellas really don't have a clue, even those decent and sensitive types of us. We may, and I emphasize MAY, come close at times but it's still no cigar for us so it has been quite amusing to read this thread and offer my half-cents worth.

Just a voice from the peanut gallery.:rolleyes:

Nacktman, are you suggesting that the "selective hearing" my wife accusses me of has affected my reading comprehension? :surprised:
If so then we have our answer as to "Why aren't there More women..."
As men we can't/won't hear what the women are saying - so we can't fix the problem and there aren't enough gals and the ones there are can't get thru to us guys.:smash: So it's back to square one!? :shrug:

Amusing?? You bet!:eatpopcorn:

Let's see, :thinking: a half cent is 5 mills, right? They haven't minted mills for ages - so if we factor in inflation and the rarity of the coins your half cents is worth considerable $$$ :idea:

;) Chuck :peace:

[Boreas]

As men we can't/won't hear what the women are saying - so we can't fix the problem and there aren't enough gals and the ones there are can't get thru to us guys.:smash: So it's back to square one!? :shrug:

Truly sad and pathetic isn't it? ;)

So, the trick is:

1. Listen as best you are able,
2. Do NOT try to fix the "problem"
3. Listen
4. Do NOT force her into anything that makes her uncomfortable,
5. Listen,
6. Be quiet
7. Above all, listen and do NOT try to fix her. :D

Oh, and being patient will help. :)

[nacktman]

Truly sad and pathetic isn't it? ;)

So, the trick is:

1. Listen as best you are able,
2. Do NOT try to fix the "problem"
3. Listen
4. Do NOT force him into anything that makes him uncomfortable,
5. Listen,
6. Be quiet
7. Above all, listen and do NOT try to fix him. :D

Oh, and being patient will help. :)

Turn about is fair play ya'll.

We all know each lady tries to "fix" her man instead of accepting who he is, so I 'corrected' Still_Boreas's citation to reflect the aforementioned fair play. It might be that when we all grasp the concept we aren't going to 'change' each other that a lot of things will fall into place.

Polls and studies have proven that women prefer to be nude as much as men and the philosophy of nudism is embraced by as many women as men so the actuality of being nude and the idea of nudism isn't what is 'holding some women back'. What 'it' is, is something just beyond the ability of we men to fully grasp and it is a worthy goal to grasp, we just fall short and the odds are we forever will - by the same token so do the ladies with respect to we fellows.

The Mrs., is fond of saying, "we was raised different, is all" ... and to go into why and how that 'different raising' affects and effects us in life would be another thread and a whole lot more typing than I want to go into right on.

[Boreas]

we was raised different, is all

Well, that sums it all up nicely! :applause: