The Confessional

[Rex]

This is my first venture into this section of the forum.
I prefer not to get heavy about religion, one reason being that any suggestion that something could have been handled in a better way, is often seen as an unwarranted attack on someone's beliefs.
But something I saw on a TV current affairs program whilst I was having my evening meal, has troubled me enough that I feel I must say something.
The story was about an Australian Catholic priest, who is currently doing 6 years in jail for child sex abuse, a situation all too common in many parts of the world.
Apparently, he confessed his on-going sins 1500 [yes, 1500!] times to various priests and bishops, and yet his abuse was allowed to go on.
An anti child abuse campaigner is calling for Australian State and Federal govts to enact laws which would make it illegal for priests hearing confessions to not notify the police, if they heard about child abuse. As could be expected, a Catholic Church spokesman said that the Confessional would remain confidential. I understand that a priest breaking this rule, could be excommunicated, a threat which would be laughable to me, but which, I understand, could be intolerably devastating to a devout Catholic.
Child abuse within the Catholic Church is all too common, and yet remains largely unaddressed.
On the other hand, uninformed opinions that abuse could conceivably occur at, for instance, nudist youth camps, are pursued by sanctimonious politicians.
Some years ago, a journalist friend did an in-depth series of newspaper articles into child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. I asked him how the paedophile priests could live with the belief that they would, one day, have to account for what they had done in life, and he told me that they believed that, once they had confessed, they were forgiven.
I would suggest that, if the Confessional were no longer guaranteed confidential, if the paedophile priests confessed, they would be brought to justice, and their illegal activities would cease. If they did not confess, they would suffer unbelievable mental agony, and that would, hopefully, stop them from re-offending, a win-win situation.
Any comments?

[Rex]

This is my first venture into this section of the forum.
I prefer not to get heavy about religion, one reason being that any suggestion that something could have been handled in a better way, is often seen as an unwarranted attack on someone's beliefs.
But something I saw on a TV current affairs program whilst I was having my evening meal, has troubled me enough that I feel I must say something.
The story was about an Australian Catholic priest, who is currently doing 6 years in jail for child sex abuse, a situation all too common in many parts of the world.
Apparently, he confessed his on-going sins 1500 [yes, 1500!] times to various priests and bishops, and yet his abuse was allowed to go on.
An anti child abuse campaigner is calling for Australian State and Federal govts to enact laws which would make it illegal for priests hearing confessions to not notify the police, if they heard about child abuse. As could be expected, a Catholic Church spokesman said that the Confessional would remain confidential. I understand that a priest breaking this rule, could be excommunicated, a threat which would be laughable to me, but which, I understand, could be intolerably devastating to a devout Catholic.
Child abuse within the Catholic Church is all too common, and yet remains largely unaddressed.
On the other hand, uninformed opinions that abuse could conceivably occur at, for instance, nudist youth camps, are pursued by sanctimonious politicians.
Some years ago, a journalist friend did an in-depth series of newspaper articles into child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. I asked him how the paedophile priests could live with the belief that they would, one day, have to account for what they had done in life, and he told me that they believed that, once they had confessed, they were forgiven.
I would suggest that, if the Confessional were no longer guaranteed confidential, if the paedophile priests confessed, they would be brought to justice, and their illegal activities would cease. If they did not confess, they would suffer unbelievable mental agony, and that would, hopefully, stop them from re-offending, a win-win situation.
Any comments?

"If they did not confess, they would suffer unbelievable mental agony, and that would, hopefully, stop them from re-offending, a win-win situation.
Any comments?"

Authorities say that the majority of people who think about children sexually never actually carry it out in real life. I hope that is true.

I knew a pedophile once, knew him very well. Besides having this terrible affliction he was also a chronic liar and it went as deep as lying to himself. He was not able to admit that he even did these things much less deal with stopping the behavior.

I would imagine that the great majority of pedophiles aren't catholic to begin with so just using the minority that are, I see this happening. They can't admit the truth to themselves which means they won't stop offending.

I know the man I knew is either still out there offending or in prison again because he was caught. Even though he went through an extensive rehab program I know he didn't learn from it. He could not while other mental issues were standing in the way of his progress. There is no mental agony when mental illness prevents you from feeling it.

NO one should be able to clear his conscience of a crime by confessing it to a priest.

[Outlaw]

Being a life-long Catholic, (though no longer a practicing Catholic) I remember being told that even though one would confess confess the sin of a major crime, it would not be forgiven until it was admitted to the appropriate authorities. Perhaps this isn't the case anymore, but I would hope that it is!

Big Mac

[Burntbuns]

The anomymous "Confessional" has almost gone away. Today, priests meet with those seeking reconciliation. At some point, the confessional protection ends. For a priest going to confession, the removing of the stole (the purple ribbon kind vestment worn by the priest hearing the confession. Once the sacramental side of confession is over, the two may discuss the matter, advice can be given, action can be started. Most non-Catholics and even some Catholics do not understand what is protected and what is not.

The sacrament of reconciliation is a powerful force. It is what enables Catholics to come clean. Some of the coming clean may include getting help and treatment.

The confusion in the Church until recently what that the priest hearing the confession did not know what to say to the person seeking sacramental aid.

[pahjo2]

the former governer of oklahoma, frank keating, was appointed by the catholic church to over see the reports of child abuse by the catholic priests. he said there was so much cover up and refusal to open the records that he resigned saying that he couldn't do the job properly with out cooperation.
does this sound like they want want to get to the bottom of the problem or are they above the law because the are clergymen? maybe the latter is why the former doesn't apply. i believe it is meant to be by nature or by god to be attracted to the opposite sex and when that is forbidden then things take place when they shouldn't.
if priests were allowed to marry then maybe our children would be safe from the very person they are taught to trust the most.

[stevenf64]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex:

Apparently, he confessed his on-going sins 1500 [yes, 1500!] times to various priests and bishops, and yet his abuse was allowed to go on.

Child abuse within the Catholic Church is all too common, and yet remains largely unaddressed.

I asked him how the paedophile priests could live with the belief that they would, one day, have to account for what they had done in life, and he told me that they believed that, once they had confessed, they were forgiven.

Any comments? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>REX
Out of order but here goes....
YES there is to much (one case is too much) child abuse in the church. I BELIEVE this is a result of a priest not being allowed to marry, which the bible does not say, its a rule the church invented..
Second, Lots of people believe that confession of sins, this is just NOT TRUE, you must confess (no one says to man, the bible says to god), You must STOP doing what you are doing, and You MUST take the punishment that is required by the law....
As for one day standing before their maker and being accountable, They are trying to fool themselves.
steve
PS my opinion is anyone who would do that to a child is not a religious person, anyone can call themselves anything that doesnt make it true...
steve

[Jochanaan]

Blaming the problem of child sexual abuse on priests not being allowed to marry is not dealing with the real problem. I have lived a celibate life for almost a decade now, and I have never sexually abused anyone, so I know it's possible.

The real issue is power. Many priests, bishops, etc., can handle the power they have over people with grace and restraint, for the benefit of those who come to them. But some get addicted to the power, and may even believe that because they are "God's servants" they can do no wrong. Some Protestant ministers believe similar things, and there have been cases of abuse there too.

And certain Catholic authorities have shown by their actions that they care more about protecting the guilty priests than protecting their parishioners from them. This is intolerable. Since the Catholic Church claims to have the Truth, they should always strive to find out the truth and do the right thing.

[TXK NUDE]

I can tell you from my personal experience that in the US it is the law for ministers and priests to report any confession of a crime or the intent to commit a crime. Failure to do so can lead to a charge of aiding and abetting a criminal. When I was a minister, I had to alert all counselees to this rule and ask them if I needed to contact a local police officer before counselling began.

[gamblefish]

It is no suprise that the Catholic Church feels it is above the law of man when it puts itself above the Word of God.

I can maybe understand the weakness of an individual in commiting these abuses. But when someone in authority finds out and lets it go on for any length of time, this is a real atrocity.

[wannabenaked2001]

A pedophile is a pedophile! Allowing priests to marry would not change this. (But I do think priests should be allowed to marry.)

In the past, a Catholic family was expected to send at least one of their children into the church as a nun or a priest. This often resulted in the less functional/intellegent/attractive child entering the church, pretty much against their will. (Yes, the Catholic Church has a very sorted past.) Additionally, many of these priests and nuns were sent where ever they were needed, to do what ever was needed. (I remember having a nun as a teacher in grade school, and while it was not clear to me at the time, I now realize that she probably did not like children.)

The practice of "giving" a child to the church is no longer done (at least not in the US). I hope the church will do the right thing and do some much needed "house cleaning".

[Bob S.]

There is a difference between a simple confession "Father, I have used my Lord' name in vain." and a serious confession "Father, I have had sex with a child." I will not pretend to understand the religious aspect of this but using the human aspect, it is a no-brainer. If a priest hears of a confession by anyone about illicit behaviour, especially if that behaviour resulted in harm to another, the priest should now concentrate his thoughts on helping the injured rather than giving atonement to the sinner.

In this case, even if the priest does not report the abuse to the authorities, which should be the number one thing on his mind, he should at least keep the keep an extremely short leash on the confessor and attempt to help the victim. Unfortunately, only half of that was done with the scandal over here. The pedo was not reported and instead of attempting some kind of rehabilitation, he was given a free pass to go minsiter elsewhere.

"If they did not confess, they would suffer unbelievable mental agony, and that would, hopefully, stop them from re-offending, a win-win situation."

Only those with a conscience and who absolutely felt what they did was wrong would have a chance of suffering. Bust too often, with the first time they get away with this crime they get confidence that they are safe. And that is when they do it again. After a while, they begin to justify it to themselves that they are in the right.

"I BELIEVE this is a result of a priest not being allowed to marry, which the bible does not say, its a rule the church invented.."

Steven, if only it were that simple, but realize that most of the child abusers are fathers who abuse their own children. These men have access to a legitimate sexual mate and still abuse their children. For a pedophile, an adult spouse does not end the problem.

Bob S.

Being celibate is not impossible since I've done it for many years because of my beliefs. There is absolutely NO excuse for child molestation or rape.

Also, the Catholic church may be A church, but they are not THE church. I'm not sure that any church has a monopoly on the truth. There's some truth in pretty much all of them. Unfortunately, some of them have very little truth. While I have no doubt that there are pedophiles (sp?) in all religions as well as schools, boy scouts, girl scouts, and any other place where children are, we seem to hear about it more in the Catholic religion. Why is that? Pedophiles will go wherever they can find children, into any profession, any church, any organization. Wherever there are a lot of children, that's where you will find the pedophiles, because they want to be near the children. It has nothing whatsoever to do with ANY of them being Christians, which they certainly aren't by any strtch of the imagination. It's a matter of pedophiles seeking out the children and going whereever they are. If the Catholic church has a lot of children, then that's where the pedophiles will go.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
While I have no doubt that there are pedophiles (sp?) in all religions as well as schools, boy scouts, girl scouts, and any other place where children are, we seem to hear about it more in the Catholic religion. Why is that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There aren't many child molesters in the Catholic Church. The vast majority are not. But it is very newsworthy when one is discovered. It is far more disturbing to the public because we expect a higher standard of priests. That is compounded when we were shocked to discover the church leadership hid the problem and allowed it to continue for far too long. A little league coach is a local scandal, a priest is national news. It is not at all surprising that after all the press it seems like the priesthood is rampant with sexual deviants. It isn't.

All that being understood, there is another side to this.

Consider a young man raised in the church. He believes its teachings. He begins to realize that his sexual feelings are not the normal sort the Church approves. He knows that to act on those feelings is a sin. To such a young man, a celibate life devoted to God would be the way to save his soul, do good in the world, and re-establish his own sense of worth. Because of the vow of celibacy, a religious vocation can be an attractive choice for devout Catholics who feel they are other than normal heterosexuals. Again, realize that most would never trespass, but there will always be a few who fail.

-Mark

[Bob S.]

"we seem to hear about it more in the Catholic religion. Why is that"

Because the media loves to report in themes. Recall the summer of the child abductions when the media reported on the certain abductions and then basically did a count of how many they were reporting on. In actuality, that year was a typical year for abductions but it seemed worse because of the reporting. They made it even worse when the local news and national news did reports on how to keep your child safe, what to look for, how to talk to your children, etc.

But the Catholic Church problem is a bit different as it encomnpassed such a large time frame, so many victims, and the public's favorite theme, conspiracy.

Bob S.

[Ottergirl77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> NO one should be able to clear his conscience of a crime by confessing it to a priest.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have never been Catholic, so I can't speak to the above from a Catholic standpoint. However, from a Christian (non-Catholic) standpoint, I can say that confession and forgiveness doesn't mean that the natural consequenses for a person's actions shouldn't take place.

From my understanding, while God forgives a person's sin, people are still subject to the laws of their country (i.e. you can confess your sin and be forgiven, but you still need to go to jail to atone for your crime).

So, for me personally, the confidential nature of confessing sin to a Catholic priest is incomplete. Yes, God may be willing to forgive the sin, but the person who committed it still needs to suffer the natural consequencs of their actions.

-Ottergirl

[TXK NUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
There is absolutely NO excuse for child molestation or rape.

Agreed. I am an adult survivor of child abuse of a sexual nature, and probably know more than most about sexual abuse and its cause and effects. While abusers are sick and in need of serious help, there is truly no excuse for the damage that they inflict on an innocent...whether it be a child or a young woman.

While I have no doubt that there are pedophiles in all religions as well as schools, boy scouts, girl scouts, and any other place where children are, we seem to hear about it more in the Catholic religion. Why is that?

Because the situations in the Catholic Church are not just isolated incidents and involve priests--higher authorities who should know better! I doubt we would hear so much about it if it were only lay leadership doing the abuse, but if you can't trust a priest or a police officer, who can you trust, right?

Pedophiles will go wherever they can find children, into any profession, any church, any organization. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True, but again, should pedophiles gain access to roles of leadership in those organizations? Shouldn't there be a better screening process? And for goodness sakes, shouldn't a pedophile, once discovered in such a role of leadership, be removed and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? Any leader, church, boy scouts, or otherwise, should be removed as soon as it is discovered of their evil behavior, not transferred to another church or position of leadership involving children!

[Frank R]

Catholics are not the only group with problems. These has just been reported more.

William Bowen always considered himself a devout Jehovah's Witness. As an elder in his Kentucky congregation, he said he saw it as his duty to inform church officials that a fellow elder had abused a child. But when Mr. Bowen contacted the church's headquarters in Brooklyn, he says, he was rebuffed. Frustrated by the church's inaction and by its confidentiality provisions, which he said prevented him from sharing the information with others, Mr. Bowen resigned as an elder in December 2000. A year later, he started a group to monitor child sexual abuse in the church.
Late last month, Mr. Bowen, 44, was excommunicated from the church. Behind a locked door, with plastic bags taped over the windows to ward off onlookers, he said, three church elders found him guilty of "causing divisions." The punishment was "disfellowshiping" ? complete shunning. In the past three months, four other people have been expelled from the Jehovah's Witnesses after accusing it of covering up the sexual abuse of children by its members. For Mr. Bowen and other critics of church policies on sexual abuse, the expulsions are part of a concerted effort to keep such abuses quiet.
Expelled Witnesses say the church's own policies and culture conspire to conceal abuse. A panel of church elders, all men, meets in secret to decide each case, a procedure which critics say prevents members from knowing there is an abuser in their midst. To prove an accusation, a child must have a witness to the incident, a condition that is usually impossible to meet. "This is evidence for the world to see how the Jehovah's Witnesses treat abuse survivors and those who try to protect them," said Mr. Bowen. "They silence them with the threat of disfellowshiping."
J. R. Brown, director of the public information office at church headquarters, said the church had exemplary policies for handling sexual abuse, which were based on biblical standards and had been widely published in church magazines. "We're not trying to say we handled everybody in the right way and our elders are all-knowing, all perfect," said Mr. Brown, who declined as a matter of policy to comment on individual cases, including Mr. Bowen's. "But we say, if you take what our policy is for keeping our organization clean morally, it far outpaces anybody else's."
While the Roman Catholic Church has been engulfed in its own sexual abuse scandal, the same issue is beginning to plague the Jehovah's Witnesses, a denomination that claims one million members in the United States and six million worldwide. But the shape of the scandal is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women , and many accusations involve incest. The scope of abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses is a matter of considerable debate. The church has recently been sued by eight plaintiffs in four lawsuits alleging abuse, one filed in July in Minnesota. Mr. Bowen says that his victims support group, "silentlambs," has collected reports from more than 5,000 Witnesses contending that the church mishandled child sexual abuse. The church keeps a database of members and associates who have been accused or found guilty of child abuse. Mr. Bowen said church sources had told him the database contained the names of more than 23,000 people in the United States, Canada and Europe. The church says the number is "considerably lower," but will not say what it is. The church has a firm framework for handling sexual abuse cases. Members who suspect abuse are advised to go first to the elders, who are considered spiritual and moral leaders to whom the members are to turn with their personal problems. Mr. Brown said that the church's legal department advised elders to follow the law in states that have mandatory reporting laws, and in cases in which children appear to be in danger. The elders are the ones required to judge whether someone has committed a sin like child abuse. If the abuser confesses and is forgiven, the only notice given to the congregation is an announcement that the person has been disciplined. No reason is announced. However, the elders report the person's name to headquarters, where it goes into the database so that abuser is banned from serving in a position of authority.
"If a person can cry a good tune, there are virtually no repercussions and nobody besides the elders ever knows," said Jean Kraus, who said she went to elders in her Queens congregation years ago accusing her former husband of abusing their daughter. She said that he confessed, was reprimanded and was still an active Witness."They told me that he wasn't a wicked man, that it was a weakness," she said. The church spokesman, Mr. Brown, said: "We view such judicial hearings as an extension of our shepherding work as ministers. In other words, we're there to save a person's soul. In these cases we are not going to be vindictive because these are our brothers, and we would hope that they would change." If the accused denies the allegation, the victim's testimony alone is not sufficient unless there is at least one other witness to the act . The church says its policy is based on a scriptural injunction in Deuteronomy 19:15 that says two or three witnesses are necessary to prove a man has sinned. Heidi Meyer, a third-generation Jehovah's Witness, said she went to her elders in 1994, when she was 15, to say that from the ages of 10 to 13 she had been repeatedly molested by a fellow Witness eight years her senior, the older brother of a friend. The only eyewitness was her brother, who had once seen the man grab her buttocks as she got out of a car. The elders asked explicit questions that made her uncomfortable, she said. According to an internal Witness document "Pay Attention to Yourself and to All the Flock," the elders must determine in which category the accusation fits: if it was "uncleanness," a one-time touching above the waist; "loose conduct," touching below the waist or more than once above; or the most severe, "porneia," direct sexual stimulation or activity resulting in orgasm. Each offense carries different penalties, with the most severe for porneia. The man she was accusing insisted that Ms. Meyer had misinterpreted what happened. The elders agreed. "I was expecting spiritual guidance," Ms. Meyer said. "I was expecting them to genuinely, sincerely attempt to find justice and protect the rest of the congregation from this same thing happening. And none of that happened." She, like several other alleged victims and their relatives, said in interviews that the elders warned her against reporting the abuse or talking about it with other members. "They told me if I spoke about it with anybody, I needed to be careful because I could face a judicial committee for gossip or slander," she said. "If they felt I had committed that sin, I would be disfellowshiped."
Ms. Meyer says she learned only years later that Amber Long, another young woman in the congregation, had at age 12 gone to the elders with her parents to report that she had been molested by the same man. Ms. Long, who is now 23, said she and her parents received a letter from the Witnesses advising her to "leave it in Jehovah's hands." "They said we shouldn't hold ill feelings about our brothers," Ms. Long said. "Since there weren't two eyewitnesses, they said there wasn't much they could do." Neither Ms. Long nor Ms. Meyer is still active in the Jehovah's Witnesses. On July 2, the two women filed suit against the man they accuse of molesting them ? Derek Lindala, 30, of South Haven, Minn. ? the local congregation, and Jehovah's Witness headquarters. Mr. Lindala did not respond to a message left at his home seeking comment.
Barbara Anderson, of Tullahoma, Tenn., said that when she and her husband lived and worked at church headquarters in Brooklyn in the 1990's, she was asked to gather information about child abuse in the congregations. She said she handed over to church leaders dozens of letters complaining about how cases were handled. For her it was a revelation. "Jehovah's Witnesses like to say that we have one of the most crime-free organizations," Mrs. Anderson said. "But all problems are taken to the elders, and the elders keep them quiet." She said that the documents prompted an internal debate among church leaders, and that when there was no action, she left headquarters disheartened in 1993, after 11 years of volunteering.
Carl A. Raschke, a professor of religious studies said the group was no different from many other insular religions that aspire to theological and moral purity. "Groups that tend to be very tight-knit and in-grown historically have a higher incidence of sexual abuse and incest," Dr. Raschke said. "That's an ethnological fact. When a religion tries to be thoroughly holy or godly, it's not going to acknowledge that people aren't living up to the ideals of the faith." On July 25, Mrs. Anderson was excommunicated. A week later her husband, Joe, who had earlier resigned as an elder after 42 years, was also expelled. "It is inconceivable to think elders would investigate an allegation of murder to determine guilt or innocence, so why would we investigate an allegation of child abuse?" Mr. Anderson wrote in his resignation letter. "This is just not our field of expertise. We are ministers of God, not police."

[Trailscout]

There is a large independent Pentecostal church near Atlanta with such a problem. One of the associate pastors is the brother of the senior pastor.

He reportedly had sex with a woman he was providing marriage counsel to. He told her that it was part of her therapy. When he was caught, he later admitted that it was deceptive and manipulative.
His brother, the senior pastor had him suspended from duty for two months and reinstated his brother as associate pastor.

When challenged on this matter, the senior pastor simply said that we should be quick to forgive.

The associate pastor had no time to receive counseling. He may be forgiven, but I find it hard to believe that he is rehabilitated. What are the odds that he will abuse his power again?

I suspect that all he has learned is simply to be more discrete, in order to keep this stuff out of the newspapers.

[jazzboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between a simple confession "Father, I have used my Lord' name in vain." and a serious confession "Father, I have had sex with a child." <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that I will start here.

That a confession is a confession is a confession is not true. If you go before a priest, and therefore God, and confess your sins without remorse or without doing a penance(sp.), you have made an unclean confession and are not forgiven.

Catholics refer to confession as the Sacrement of Reconciliation. Reconciliation does not mean you say you are sorry and God says OK! It requires that you do the hard work of paying for that sin. Since a confession does not end when you leave the confessional it seems entirely resonable that the penance for these priests includes jail time.

The Catholic Church has a history filled with corruption; however, I do not think it is alone. To retain any credibility in the future, it must see that all preists that misbehave are prosecuted.

Perfection resides in one place. But if a preist cannot even obey man's law, the lowest standard, he will never be able to abide by a higher law.

Cheers,