Thoughts on Katrina aftermath...

[nakednudists]

[nakednudists]

[Nude in the North]

It's spelled FEMA, not Bush.

[Sol-Searcher]

I believe it was FEMA that dropped the ball on this one. (not Bush) He at least had the courage to kick them in the butt and get things rolling in the right direction. I will be going to Picaune Ms. Tuesday. As I write this message not one FEMA rep has visited the town and no MRE's delivered, no Salvation Army and no Red Cross. It is like no one knows they are there.

The only help they have recieved is two bags of ice perday and a container of water per family from an organization out of Springfield Mo.

I hope that I can do a little bit of good for these people when I get there, but I'm only one person.

Your friend,
Randy

But Bush was the one that moved FEMA into Homeland Security and took away it's effectiveness.

[nakednudists]

Exactly!

[Trailscout]

There is nothing inherently wrong with putting FEMA under a comprehensive national security agency. In fact, it makes sense to coordinate their efforts and open communcation lines.

However, there are entrenched problems with many of our governmental agencies. Call it bureaucracy, red tape, it takes great skill and leadership to make the typical federal agency efficient.

Jimmy Carter was skilled at streamlining Georgia's government as governor in the early 1970's. He attempted to do the same at the national level when he was elected president. Unfortunately, he was fighting a system that we still struggle with. Both Republican and Democratic leaders find the bureaucracy maddening.

[naturalmanwa]

If Carter was president, he would have went there personally and got the ball rolling!

[Trailscout]

President Carter is still active with Habitat for Humanity and I expect we will see him down there!

[nudeM]

Just an opinion, but what could have been done after the floods set in? True, the National Guards units were slow in responding, but they are the states' responsibility. Sure, the people were hungry and stranded, but how were the helpers (volunteers, guard units, medical, food distribution, etc.) able to get in, when in fact the roads were flooded in?

The Mayor of New Orleans opened up the Superdome to allow a place for the refugees to seek shelter, but after a while, the area around the Superdome became flooded.

I believe the emergency response was adequet enough, but was too slow to begin operations. We must remember, this was not a typical hurricame. Sure, houses and entire neighborhoods were flattened, but when you take into account a major city being flooded, then we are looking at something entirely different, as far as disasters goes.

We are indeed responding and helping out the best we can. But given the size (area) of the devistation, we are actually in an new area (destruction wise), that we have never seen before. This is the first time we are witnessing an emergency response of this magnitude.

There have been other destructive hurricanes, but those have either been complete destruction of neighborhoods to flooded areas, but never a flood of the major city. We are truely in a new territory, one which nobody has witnessed before.

Sure, President Bush did fly over the area, but when he finally got 'up close and personal', it was he, who got the ball rolling. The states' National Guard units did respond, but not quick enough. After Bush made his visit (on the ground), he was critical of the response efforts and by his authority, got the ball rolling on sending in Guard units nationwide.

Now, what we are witnessing, is an 'all out' military response that was 'ordered' by the President. Even he stated he was not happy with the initial efforts of the states' Guard units.

I just hope we never have the chance to see this type of destruction ever again.

[Sanslines]

Well said Freedom!

[NudeTopher]

I know that I will get a lot of flack for asking this question. But, the question begs to be asked...so here I go:

Everybody is calling for prayer to help the devestated people from this national tragedy. I am sure that millions of people were praying that the storm would change course or fizzle out or not cause such widespread destruction. But it did. Despite all of the prayers mother nature caused all of this death and destruction. If millons of people praying obviouly have no effect, why pray? At what point does one conider that there might not be a diety who is in control of the universe-including the weather? At what point do you need to consider that it is only OUR actions (and not our prayers) that will save the future for these poor people?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by freedom2be:
We can point fingers 'til the cows come home but that won't help what happened unless we learn from it - actually learn...not just say oh yeah we did that wrong and then do nothing to change the plan for the next go 'round... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What we must do IMHO:

1. Although the Bush administration doesn't seem to fire people after they screw-up; it must fire the current head of FEMA; who BTW was a failed businessman given a political plum job in repayment of his value to the Republican Party.

2. Appoint a temporary head of FEMA who has disaster management experience.

3. Convene a commmittee to have a national search for a permanent head of FEMA that has both emergency and disaster management experience. This position must be taken out of the realm of political appointment and given to the most qualified individual available.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nude in the North:
It's spelled FEMA, not Bush. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but it is spelled Bush. G.W. Bush.

When the president makes the appointmeent for an individual to head the agency he is responsible for picking the most qualified person. Let' look at who Bush appointed? Did the man have any emergency management experiencne? NO. Did the man have any disaster management experience? No. Did the man ever successfully lead a large government agency? NO.
Was the man the president appointed given a plum job in payment for service to his political party? YES.

Since the buck stops at the Oval Office for presidential appointees then yes, the President is responsible!

[Nu]

Being a little further away, distance wise; it is harder for us Canadians to comment.

The perception that we have is that action to help the people after the hurricane passed is way too slow.

As was wisely suggested on another thread, after the people are helped and things are put back to some kind of order; top officials from every country need to meet and then develop strategic plans to evacuate ALL residents to safer ground in advance of a storm threat and also spend the money on infrastructure that will better protect cities, towns, and villages from weather incidents.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Just an opinion, but what could have been done after the floods set in? True, the National Guards units were slow in responding, but they are the states' responsibility. Sure, the people were hungry and stranded, but how were the helpers (volunteers, guard units, medical, food distribution, etc.) able to get in, when in fact the roads were flooded in?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The roads to the Convention Center were not flooded in at all.

And this covers 4 states. There are still many areas that have seen no help at all, not even a week after the event, or help only from local people.

And there are still people stuck in their attics in New Orleans, screaming for someone to get them out.

This is basic, first step rescue and first step care (food, water, medical care) that is not in place even now.

[nakednudists]

Exactly!

[Trailscout]

Disasters big and small happen every day, as they did in the days of Jesus and the prophets.

God will respond to one prayer and to millions of prayers. Just because some young man 1000 miles away does not understand the mind of God, does not mean that God is inattentive to the prayers of his saints.

Since the fall of Adam, sin and death occur to good and evil men, and to the animals of this world. God did not chose this path of sorrow, our ancestors chose it for us.

God promises that he will resurrect the dead and wipe away every tear from every eye.

Prayer is not a substitute for Christian charity. God has given us the honor of being agents of his will here on Earth, ministering to the needs of the hurting.

[nudeM]

I'm not taking the bait, Cyndiann. I know where you heading, so I will not respond.

As stated, we have not had a natural disaster of this magnatude, and now is the prime time to test our abilties, as a nation, on our relief efforts, and to learn by our mistakes.

There have been many mistakes, but now is not the time to 'point the finger'. That time will be assessed at a later date. But for now, we must all contribute, anyway we can, and help bring relief to the thousands of victims. And, yes, I did send in my donation to the Red Cross.

After watching the many interviews from the 'up close and personal' newscasters, I couldn't bring myself to just turn my back. What really got to me was when Geraldo Rivera was holding an infant, that was crying for food. When I saw his eyes turn red, that really got to me. So, yea, I feel like I did my part, but I only wished I could do more. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Gary Naturist]

I think that the poor initial response had to do with the fact that the U.S. governments priorities have been directed elsewhere -- e.g. Iraq.

If you are a big macho guy by virtue of being the President of the United States of America, are you going to worry about healthcare, education or even the safety of your nation's poorest people?

No, you're going to use your country's vast wealth and technological capability to pursue global domination.

Too damn much testosterone. The only way that the U.S. will reorient its priorities appropriately is if its women are able to wrest leadership out of the hands of men and retain control for the next hundred years.

Gary

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
I'm not taking the bait, Cyndiann. I know where you heading, so I will not respond.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you did respond.

I wasn't "heading" anywhere, I bluntly said what I wanted to say. There were a lot of journalists standing right in front of the Convention Center asking why there was no help there. Were you taking a nap when that was on TV?

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by naturalmanwa:
If Carter was president, he would have went there personally and got the ball rolling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Jimmy Carter would turn off all the lights in the Whitehouse until the people of the South had power restored. That way he'd perform a symbolic act and be 'one' with the suffering.

[KirkOntario]

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http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,54...94464%5E1702,00.html (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16494464%5E1702,00.html)

Don't worry everyone Sean Penn came to the rescue only his boat had a hole in it. Hmmm wonder why he had his 'personal photographer' along with him. Maybe he was trained in rescue work? I don't think so.
_________________

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by naturalmanwa:
If Carter was president, he would have went there personally and got the ball rolling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Jimmy Carter would turn off all the lights in the Whitehouse until the people of the South had power restored. That way he'd perform a symbolic act and be 'one' with the suffering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

President Carter has devoted his post-White House life to selflessly assisting humanity through a variety of ongoing projects, including Habitat-For-Humanity. Unless you can provide a verifiable resume of similar community service, you really should keep your mouth closed on bashing his activities!

[nakednudists]

You might see that soon with Hillary Clinton.

[Trailscout]

Gary,

National defense has both a domestic and international component. One cannot neglect either.

By law 50% of the National Guard must remain at home, even in wartime. National Guard are not summoned by the President, but by the governor of the affected state.

We had the manpower and resources to adequately address the problem, but the plan was inadequate, the funding of that plan was inadequate and we did not act quickly enough.

[Trailscout]

Kirk,

Jimmy Carter was more liberal than I am, but he was and is a man of action. I lived in Georgia when he was governor and he achieved tremendous cost-savings with his careful revision of our state budget. He was more of a fiscal conservative than any Republican alive today.

[Sanslines]

Just a thought here. Gasoline prices have been going up all Summer long with no word about it from either party. I think both parties have failed us - yes boths Dems and Repubs! We need leadership and support on so many pressing issues today - pollution, health care, energy, the list goes on and on. Until we get leadership from both parties nothing will change. The bottom line is that it is up to people to make changes in their lives. Right now, we as a people need to come together and conserve as much as possible. Each one of us needs to contribute something to energy conservation. Even if we all cut back one car trip a week, then nationally this will have a huge effect. I wish politicians would keep encouraging people to do this but all I hear is silence. If we don't start conserving as a nation, then you will find people freezing in the Northeast and Midwest during this upcoming long and cold Winter. I already see elderly around me very worried as to how on earth living on fixed incomes they will be able to pay for their medications, food, and heat this Winter. The only solution right now is immediate conservation by all of us.

[need2Bnude]

Although a Category 5 hurricane, how many other hurricanes have we all seen? And although damage by those other hurricanes had occured, it wasn't terrible like this one.
I don't think anyone was prepared at all for what has happened, and now that the devestation is done; the people who saw the devestation first hand (newspeople) instead of reporting to those who could have responed with help, they instead just kept asking all the stupid negative questions, and made it sound and look like there was no help. Why haven't they focused on the many that have been saved already, why can't they focus on some of the triumphs attained. Why do they have to interview the five that are making noise, but can't see the five-thousand that are now helped and on there way?
The repair will be made, and it will take time. Why don't we give these newsreporters a shovel instead of letting them hold the matches?

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):President Carter has devoted his post-White House life to selflessly assisting humanity through a variety of ongoing projects, including Habitat-For-Humanity. Unless you can provide a verifiable resume of similar community service, you really should keep your mouth closed on bashing his activities! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. I can't criticize his disasterous White House years because he did charitable work AFTER he left the White House? But I can only criticize if I've done similar charitible work? That's your intersting line of reasoning.

Yes, AFTER he left office he did some good things. He was not suited to be President. Mayor of a small town would have suited him much better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by need2Bnude:
Although a Category 5 hurricane, how many other hurricanes have we all seen? And although damage by those other hurricanes had occured, it wasn't terrible like this one.
I don't think anyone was prepared at all for what has happened, and now that the devestation is done; the people who saw the devestation first hand (newspeople) instead of reporting to those who could have responed with help, they instead just kept asking all the stupid negative questions, and made it sound and look like there was no help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the time there was no help. There are still a lot of people who have yet to see help even today. The reporters did tell those in authority that help was needed and nothing was done. That's a fact!<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">



Why haven't they focused on the many that have been saved already, why can't they focus on some of the triumphs attained. Why do they have to interview the five that are making noise, but can't see the five-thousand that are now helped and on there way? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the time there were way more that needed help than those that got help, and it's still that way.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">


The repair will be made, and it will take time. Why don't we give these newsreporters a shovel instead of letting them hold the matches? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some volunteered to take water in to the people at the Convention Center and those in authority would not allow them to do that.

You really need to get informed!

[Sanslines]

quote:
Originally posted by need2Bnude:
Although a Category 5 hurricane, how many other hurricanes have we all seen? And although damage by those other hurricanes had occured, it wasn't terrible like this one.
I don't think anyone was prepared at all for what has happened, and now that the devestation is done; the people who saw the devestation first hand (newspeople) instead of reporting to those who could have responed with help, they instead just kept asking all the stupid negative questions, and made it sound and look like there was no help.


Don't say this to those who lived through the devistation in Homestead, Florida or other areas where people also lost everything. Any hurricane is terrible to those who lose everything and Florida gets it share of poundings each year by hurricanes. We are only in early September and so the hurricane season is still very active. I agree about the news people........they never seem to empasize the good and the humanity that others offer.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
I agree about the news people........they never seem to empasize the good and the humanity that others offer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it wasn't for the media reports, we would never know how bad the situation was, how poor the response, nor the degree of suffering. That is news.

I'm sorry that you can't find enough fluff articles that make you feel better about this horrific situation.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
I agree about the news people........they never seem to empasize the good and the humanity that others offer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good news doesn't sell.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Just an opinion, but what could have been done after the floods set in? True, the National Guards units were slow in responding, but they are the states' responsibility. Sure, the people were hungry and stranded, but how were the helpers (volunteers, guard units, medical, food distribution, etc.) able to get in, when in fact the roads were flooded in?
... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like is other such disasters, if the roads are impassable, use aircraft to drop emergency rations -- this has been done frequently.

Notice that the media were able to get in and out. Apparently, they have helicopters that can take off and land on a few minutes notice instead of the days it takes a U.S. government helicopter. OK, I'm being fascetious here. Let's face the ugly truth, there has been an unbelievable bureaucratic screw-up here.

While it may be that floods are considered a state issue, I would assume that is ususally because floods are within the resources of the state. Any disaster that is state-wide or involves multiple states must then become the responsibility of the federal government because it has to be assumed that the state's normal functioning has been gravely impaired.

[Bob S.]

The chaos that followed Katrina was a basic failure of leadership on all fronts. FEMA wasn't ready to assist the Gulf Coast as soon as the hurricane passed. They should have had teams down in Texas or somewhere else closer to NO. The second the hurricane passed, they should have been there readuy to help out everyone who needed help.

NO and Louisiana also musy share a lot of blame. From what I saw, they had no emergency plans in case the levees broke and the city was flooded. It was known for decades that a very strong hurricane would inundate the levee system, causing failure. After 9/11, every major city should have planned for the worst. The city of NO and the state of LA should have practiced fora potential terrorist attack where the levees were bombed and the city filled with water.

Nothing was done, however. The mayor designated a shelter, but did not assure that the people inside were going to be taken care of. He should have had canned food and water in there for everyone. There was no reason for them to be in the Superdone and left to fend for themselves.

If there was a mandatory evacuation, the city should have done a lot more to help its poor and indigent members to get to safety.

The first responders should have been at the ready on high round.

What I saw from the city and state was a lack of any plan. Their plan A seened to be to wait for FEMA. That is a horrible plan A. You should have a plan A that involves city workers positioned in strategic locations to best assist the residents.

And the mayor of NO was wholly irresponsible and unprofessional when he went on the tirade on the radio. I understand his frustration, but he is supposed to be a leader. By ranting on the public airwaves, he was sending a terrible message to the people. And of course, to me, that message was "I am lost. Help me."

Yes, this was THE BIG ONE, but with planning, it didn't have to be as bad as it was.

Everyone involved in the leadership after this hurricane should examine every part of what they could have done better.

"What really got to me was when Geraldo Rivera was holding an infant, that was crying for food."

Let me guess, Geralso didn't have any food. Couldn't the TV stations have gone out to get food and sent them in their trucks? Couldn't that have ferried people out of the city in their trucks? They seemed to be much more concerned about the story than the people.

Bob S.

[slapshot]

I work as a Firefighter-Paramedic and it seems like nobody is finger pointing the city of New Orleans. They apeared not to have a plan in place for a Cat. 4 or 5. The levees were designed to handle a Cat. 3. Doesnt make a lot of sense. As for Mayor Nagin, regardless of your political party, you dont tell the Feds, i.e. the President to "get off his ***" I think that the response was good, but could have been better. But what makes no sense to me, why would you shoot at the relief workers? Makes no sense to me! Just my thoughts

[P.J.]

It is too easy to blame the President.
Actually, the state government has the powers to act in an emergency and if the White House intervenes without being requested to do so, that would be illigal and wrong.
Once upon a time, the Federal government stepped in to put the upstarts in the state government in line and guess what happened...?
The Civil War erupted.
I think that the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana acted irresponsibly and demonstrated incompetance.
Too bad that Mayor Rudy Guilianni was not called in to try to bring in order from the chaos which followed Hurricane Katrina.
This still is not the time to get political about this disaster.
Let's work at bringing both Louisiana and Mississippi back on their feet and save the political mudslinging for a later day.

[P.J.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
You might see that soon with Hillary Clinton. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would trust that husband of hers before I would trust Hillary.
I doubt that Hillary will ever do anything that would carry the risk of cracking a fingernail unless it would benefit her political career.

[NudeTopher]

QUOTE]Originally posted by P.J.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
You might see that soon with Hillary Clinton. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would trust that husband of hers before I would trust Hillary.
I doubt that Hillary will ever do anything that would carry the risk of cracking a fingernail unless it would benefit her political career.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------

Since New York State is my home state and where I vote, your mention of our Senator Hillary Clinton and your mention of Mayor Rudy Guilianni rather caught me by surprise.

1. Mayor Rudy Guilianni had a totally different set of circumstances to deal with following 9-11. There were no survivors to worry about; there were no homeless; there were no supplies needed; and there were no hard decisions that needed to be made. Mayor Rudy Guilianni was left with some rather large piles of rubble and a city that needed encouragement for the future.

How does that compare to the situation in the South? Rudy has no more experience in these areas then the Mayor of New Orleans. Rudy was very good at giving press conferences but the situations had absolutely nothing in common.

2. For such a pious man as you, I am even surprised that you admire the ex-Mayor of NYC. After all, one of the reasons that he didn't continue his senatorial campaign (or seek higher state office) is because of his blatant adultery. He even had a fight with his now ex wife on who got to stay in Gracie Mansion (the mayoral home) when the adultery hit the media. (As an aside following this the Mayor took up residence with a gay couple that owns some car dealerships near ours).

3. This brings me to the point of my post. Mrs. Clinton's race to be our state senator was marred by some pretty harsh and ugly statements and actions from the conservatives (here and from outside New York). Yet, she won. The funny thing is she is doing a rather good job as our elected leader and even those conservatives in the state who opposed her election are quite satisfied with her performance (she turned out to be more of a hawk then originally thought).

So, PJ, I must ask you why all the hatred towards this woman? Do you have any problem with her performance in the representation of the people of the State of New York? What is it about her that brings out so much hatred from the right? Is her record as a Senator of no consequence? Or, is this left-over anger and hatred from the witch hunt into both Bill and her that cost the taxpayers millions of dollars and found no wrongdoing?

[slapshot]

An aerial view of flooded school buses in a lot, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005, in New Orleans, LA.

The flood is a result of Hurricane Katrina that passed through the area last Monday.(AP Photo/Phil Coale)







Cost of 127 buses in a New Orleans parking lot………….. $ 6,300,000.00



Gas to fill their tanks ………………………. ………………$ 11,112.50



127 drivers to drive them all day August 26 and 27.. ………$ 152,000.00



Having a Mayor with the foresight to use them…………… Priceless



127 busses x 50 people each = 6350 people



60,000 people who could have been evacuated by the City of New Orleans on the above buses had the Mayor of New Orleans used the foresight he is accusing others of not using.



60,000 / 6350 = 10 round trip bus trips to evacuate people to higher ground prior to the storm hitting.



Instead, the buses sat, and the Mayor now complains about the lack of transportation, and blames those in charge of responding to the crisis for not getting him buses after the storm!

[Nu]

Great analysis, Slapshot

[slo]

Like Nu, I also say great observation Slapshot. I'm not all that taken by the help their govenor has mustered, either.
SLO

[need2Bnude]

Cyndianaked; while you think you have all the facts, I think you need to get your information from a better source than just the news. As most people get their news from just newsreporters. Why do you think officials told those people not to give water to those in need. Do you know? Probably not, no actually you don't. Get real there is alot more to this whole catastrophe than people are being told.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by need2Bnude:
Although a Category 5 hurricane, how many other hurricanes have we all seen? And although damage by those other hurricanes had occured, it wasn't terrible like this one.
I don't think anyone was prepared at all for what has happened, and now that the devestation is done; the people who saw the devestation first hand (newspeople) instead of reporting to those who could have responed with help, they instead just kept asking all the stupid negative questions, and made it sound and look like there was no help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the time there was no help. There are still a lot of people who have yet to see help even today. The reporters did tell those in authority that help was needed and nothing was done. That's a fact!<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">



Why haven't they focused on the many that have been saved already, why can't they focus on some of the triumphs attained. Why do they have to interview the five that are making noise, but can't see the five-thousand that are now helped and on there way? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the time there were way more that needed help than those that got help, and it's still that way.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">


The repair will be made, and it will take time. Why don't we give these newsreporters a shovel instead of letting them hold the matches? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some volunteered to take water in to the people at the Convention Center and those in authority would not allow them to do that.

You really need to get informed! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Boreas]

Slapshot I too like your analysis. I saw the picture of the drowned school buses and it is a sad sad sight when there are people trapped due to lack of transport.

I have been hearing on the news about the lack of an emergency plan for the city of NO. That is particularly appalling given that it lies below sea level. As I understand it, they have had warnings/threats of exactly this type of scenario for some time. Having a good emergency contigency plan would save so much money and lives. Unfortunately, it seems that business interests and such are more valued than people's lives.....especially poor, marginalized people.

I would like to see more investment in social capital and infrastucture. Do you think that will happen?

[Baremore]

Have to agree with the above analysis, with one reservaton; the buses may not have been under the authority of the mayor. They may be under control of an independant school board.

I read somewhere about an airforce helicopter unit that was nearby NO and begged for permission to fly rescue missions but was turned away by FEMA because FEMA had no authority over the military.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baremore:
Have to agree with the above analysis, with one reservaton; the buses may not have been under the authority of the mayor. They may be under control of an independant school board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is very likely. An emergency evacuation plan would likely have included using school buses and other means of transport to evacuate people. Also, wouldn't the mayor or staff of the city hall be able to contact the school board to get the use of the buses?

[shomymojo]

Why didn't Sen. John Kerry go to New Orleans and rescue those people by boat...after all he has so much experience at rescuing people from the water...while under fire...and he cares for the little man so much more than Pres Bush...especially the ones that buy his wife's BBQ sauce and catsup...which BTW...is now mostly made in outsourced plants in other countries...and has made her worth hundreds of millions of $$$...(just wondering)...LOL

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shomymojo:
Why didn't Sen. John Kerry go to New Orleans and rescue those people by boat...after all he has so much experience at rescuing people from the water...while under fire...and he cares for the little man so much more than Pres Bush...especially the ones that buy his wife's BBQ sauce and catsup...which BTW...is now mostly made in outsourced plants in other countries...and has made her worth hundreds of millions of $$$...(just wondering)...LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are serious about wondering what John Kerry is doing, here is his statement: <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>“Our thoughts and prayers go out to all the citizens of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama as they struggle with the aftermath of this devastating storm, and to their loved ones and families viewing the disturbing photos coming out of the region. I also would like to commend the brave men and women who are leading the rescue operations; from emergency service officers to health care professionals to the power and water crews working around the clock to save lives.

“Hurricane Katrina devastated significant portions of the Gulf Coast and disrupted millions of lives. The situation in New Orleans is heartbreaking.

“We cannot and must not give up on the people left stranded and destitute by this storm. This is a national tragedy and it demands a national response. At home in Massachusetts, citizens and corporations are donating time, money and their expertise to help out and I know the same thing is happening in every state in the country.

“Now is the time for all of us to come together to help our fellow Americans rebuild the communities that have lost so much.

“Elected officials, emergency personnel and incredible volunteers are working round the clock. These emergency workers are heroes.

“While Americans are united and determined to help the people who are suffering, there is no question that we share a collective anguish and frustration over the inadequate response of the federal government over these past several days. Federal officials must act swiftly in coming hours and days to direct more aid to the region as rapidly as possible.

“Last night the Senate allocated $10.5 billion to help fund immediate relief efforts. Although that is a welcome first step, I plan to work in coming days to find more ways that we can help joining with my colleagues in the Senate to support those who have lost so much and those working so hard to help them.

“I am also directing my team at johnkerry.com and my leadership committee Keeping America’s Promise to help. This week we have sent out fundraising appeals for the Red Cross and teamed up to help victims find housing at http://www.hurricanehousing.org. The response has been incredibly heartening. We will be doing more in coming days as we learn more about the best to provide assistance.

“I just returned from spending the week in Iraq, seeing firsthand the bravery of our troops as they face chaos and destruction. Our country has a huge heart and an incredibly strong spirit. We came together to support of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and their families, now we will come together to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina. We will endure and we will survive but we can’t stop working until we get help to all those left suffering. For more information on how to help, visit FEMA’s website or visit the American Red Cross at http://www.redcross.org. Thank you for your support for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.”
[/list]

It is a misconception that Teresa Heinz Kerry owns the Heinz Corporaton. It is true that her 3 sons are Heinz heirs - among many other members of the extended Heinz family, but the Heinz family current holdings in the Heinz corporation are insignificant.

Teresa is the Chairman of the Howard Heinz Endowment and the Heinz Family Philanthropies. These charitable organizations long ago divested their Heinz corporation stocks for a diversified portfolio. Although the media often includes the assets of these charities in the "Wealth that Teresa Heinz Kerry controls", they are not her property. So buy all the Heinz ketchup and BBQ sauce you please without fear that it will enrich Teresa or "her" charities. Better yet, contribute money directly to the Red Cross and other organizations so they can buy what is needed locally - Katrina Relief Donations (http://s1.amazon.com/paypage/PELYGQVJ8Q7IB/103-6482507-1053435)

-Mark

[Sol-Searcher]

Update on my trip to Picayune, Ms.

I have just returned, this was the most devastating disaster I have ever seen. Many homes are totally destroyed. There is food and water and ice being delivered now, and I did see the National guard in force.

There was police from just about every state, and they were all very helpfull. Thanks to them all.

As I came in off I-10 there was about 25 or so miles of power lines down. It may be quite some time before power is restored, all of the neighbors are helping each other, and they all seem fine. No deaths reported, thank God.

As I traveled down I-10 for all of you that have ever been down that way every sign advertising the casinos were blown down. Now let me tell you about how strong the wind was. The steel poles that held the signs up used to be all painted a nice shade of green, well all that paint was sandblasted off the poles and they are all rusting brown poles.

Very many of these people are living in tents in front of their destroyed homes. God I pray for each one of them. Please remember them all.

Your friend,
Randy

PS. Please lets wait until this is all over and then we can talk politics. They need your help.

[Sol-Searcher]

This house may have been just a mobile home, (above) but it was someones home.

Your friend,
Randy

[R.M.GREENMAN2]

I haven't read every post here, but here is my comment anyway!
I have been told Years ago that if a major Hurricane was to hit N.O. head on....this would happen!
Well...it did!
I darn near drove my van out this weekend to save at least one family...except for the gas prices and the shooters....I definately would have!

Soooo....Every city needs to learn from this and have a very workable plan for a natural disaster! Even Denver where Blizzards are the only ones we have notice before it actually hits!

I gave money to the Red Cross and Blood to Bonfils.....and If I prayed...it would be for the Children of the Hard Hit areas!

[KirkOntario]

For the record at this time last year John Kerry was complaining about high gas prices and lambasting Bush for diverting oil to the strategic storage and thus keeping the price high. Good thing George didn't listen because that oil is marked for real crises not interference in the marketplace the way democrats would prefer.

[jon71]

Kerry was right then and still is. It's a shame he's not President because as a man of action and accomplishment he would have actually dealt with this disaster instead of twiddling his thumbs. The fema chief bush appointed waited five hours after land fall of Katrina to ask, very politely and with no sense of urgency, for relief efforts to begin. He gave crews two days just to get to Louisianna and Miss. Bush and co. really are the reincarnation of Nero fiddling while Rome burned and N. Orleans drowns. This will be remembered as the most incompetent and laxadaisical response to a trajedy in a century.

[Captain Zen]

I agree very so,jon71,


Dirty talking [one] does not wash away the dirt ywords from the talker.
A time to take decisisons for the Libs, instead of waiting for the Dems to coach them on.
Is this politically still incorrect?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Kerry was right then and still is. It's a shame he's not President because as a man of action and accomplishment he would have actually dealt with this disaster instead of twiddling his thumbs. The fema chief bush appointed waited five hours after land fall of Katrina to ask, very politely and with no sense of urgency, for relief efforts to begin. He gave crews two days just to get to Louisianna and Miss. Bush and co. really are the reincarnation of Nero fiddling while Rome burned and N. Orleans drowns. This will be remembered as the most incompetent and laxadaisical response to a trajedy in a century. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, a great post jon!

[Sanslines]

Another side to this story:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> THE TRUTH IS EXPOSED
>
>
>> An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the
>> Welfare State by Robert Tracinski
>> Sep 02, 2005

>> It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out
>> how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because
>> it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there.
>> The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we
>> are confronting a natural disaster.

snip

>>
>> Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005
>>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't say that I agree with this but it is another one of many sides to the story and hopefully those with open minds will consider them all and learn something so that we can prevent future catastrophes.

UPDATE: Most of this post was edited and deleted by unknow person. My comment above applies to what I had previously posted and not just the small bit that remains above. Please advise as to the reason for deleting most of the post.

[hm0504]

Regarding the opinion piece brought to out attention by Sanslines, I would have to say I generally disagree with it.

I think if one takes any set of people, multi-billionaire CEOs, taxidermists, lawyers, or any random sampling of people, and suddenly destroy everything they have, and puts them in a place for several days with no food, water, sanitation, medical care, where they can watch their and other's babies and children's reach near death from starvation, I think one is going to see a dramatic decrease in human rationality and civility.

As for the snipers and those who try to kill other humans at random, I suspect they were the some of the most self-reliant (though in a bad way) people in New Orleans. I'm not putting them in the same class as the general New Orleans displacee.

[nudenwv]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
I was just curious to see peoples' viewes on what is occuring in Louisiana and Mississippi right now. Do you think more can be done from the oval office? It really concerns me when I turn on the tv or read the paper, and people are getting shot at and the kaos seems to be getting worse, not better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> i think the kaos that's happening is from the shock of the disaster. you go into survival mode and do what it takes to survive.

Here is another take on it.

How the Free market Killed New Orleans (http://www.mynudelife.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=97b981b4a61485874566410491d9c47d;a ct=ST;f=13;t=122;st=0;&#entry1)

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by keith bricker:
i think the kaos that's happening is from the shock of the disaster. you go into survival mode and do what it takes to survive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not know Captain Zen's position on this matter, but I don't think KAOS (http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/kaos.html)

http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/graphics/kaos_logo2.gif http://www.berniekopell.com/images/8.jpg
is involved, but CHAOS (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chaos) might be.



Of course, if I'm wrong, then we better Get Smart.

[Boreas]

That is a great article Cyndiann and a good rebuttal to the post submitted by sanslines (the one that seems to have been deleted). Where did this come from?

The Great Depression is also a good example of the failure of the Free Market.

I didn't have a direct link so I had copied it right to my site. I think I found it on the nudist newsgroup.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
[QUOTE] THE TRUTH IS EXPOSED
>> An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the
>> Welfare State by Robert Tracinski
>> Sep 02, 2005
UPDATE: Most of this post was edited and deleted by unknow person. ... Please advise as to the reason for deleting most of the post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading the whole article, and came away with the strong impression that it was just thinly veiled racism. My guess is one of the moderators felt likewise.

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
I didn't have a direct link so I had copied it right to my site. I think I found it on the nudist newsgroup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a direct link: How the Free Market Killed New Orleans (http://tinyurl.com/cx4f7)

-Mark

[Sanslines]

Mark,

Thanks for your reply. My posting of that article was just to show another side for intelligent discussion and does not reflect my opinion one way or another. I didn't think that posting it as a topic for discussion would be so offensive. It is just one of many articles comming out now. I do hope that the person who deleted it contacts me.

[KirkOntario]

ABC finally came up with a more balanced view today...No silly arguments about free markets.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=110...CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&amp;page=1&amp;CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)


"New Orleans' own comprehensive emergency plan raises the specter of "having large numbers of people … stranded" and promises "the city … will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas."

"Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves," the plan states.

When Hurricane Katrina hit, however, that plan was not followed completely.

Instead of sending city buses to evacuate those who could not make it out on their own, people in New Orleans were told to go to the Superdome and the Convention Center, where no one provided sufficient sustenance or security."

[KirkOntario]

Here's what killed people. Local polticians being politicians. Spending the money on projects of immediate benefit, things they could point to : playgrounds, bike paths, restoring a mardi gras fountain and neglecting the long-term view and the public safety.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\arch...09\NAT20050907a .html (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200509\NAT2005 0907a.html)


"By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center."

The truth is more boring than conspiracies and more complex than blame Bush cause he's the guy we usually blame.

[nudeM]

Katrina (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219)

For those who are critizing the Bush administration, please read the attached article. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Captain Zen]

I said it the day after the disaster struck, they have it planned so. The weakest must die, the clean up total, the vicctims prisoners and the suffering tremendous. The leaders are in control by delaying help.
Read this
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10165.htm

sorry to post this so damning report, but it is the truth. Again...

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by keith bricker:
i think the kaos that's happening is from the shock of the disaster. you go into survival mode and do what it takes to survive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not know Captain Zen's position on this matter, but I don't think KAOS (http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/kaos.html)

http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/graphics/kaos_logo2.gif http://www.berniekopell.com/images/8.jpg
is involved, but CHAOS (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chaos) might be.



Of course, if I'm wrong, then we better Get Smart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No sirs of the Naked Realm, this Chaos was foreseen, orchestrated and executed as planned.
here is a little better written article than my own ramblings:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10165.htm

[Bob S.]

I am going to be sending a letter to my local Congressmen and Senators and will tell others to do so likewise.

My message will be to stop the pork spending. With the Gulf cleanup efforts reaching beyind $100 billion, the politicans need to show a more responsible budgeting.

Pork spending is out of control. Maybe if the constituents of every DC politican tell them to cut needless spending in their state and suggest that they allocate that money to go toward rebuilding the Gulf Coast, the impact could be lessened.

Think about all spending your politican wants for your state. Now ask if it is absolutely necessary this year. Ask yourself if it compares to the situation in NO, Biloxi, Gulfport, Mibile, and all other unnamed disaster areas.

Bob S.

[hm0504]

An interesting question will be whether New Orleans should in fact be rebuilt at the same location, particularly given the toxic soup that may make it uninhabitable for many years to come.

[Captain Zen]

In ancient China the rulers sometimes changed the Capital with the Government buildings and all and located it to another place or built a whole new city to be the new capital.
Like Brazil did when it created Brasilia.
That way a fresh beginning could be enforced against stagnant policies and corrupted officials.
It would be magnificent if a whole new city was built away from the most dangerous place it used to be.

http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very powerful, thanks for posting it.

[hw]

Fox News' "Special Report," 9/7/05

Fox News' Brit Hume: First, the focus of all of the attention has been
FEMA, Federal Emergency Management Agency, what is FEMA?



Fox News' Major Garrett: Federal Emergency Management Agency, 2,500
full time employees, 4,000 stand by employees. The mission statement
very simple: prepare, respond, help, recover, reduce risk. How does it
do it? By coordinating with state and local entities and other groups
The Salvation Army, Red Cross, dedicated to helping the needy when
disaster strikes.



Hume: So FEMA is relatively, it isn't very labor intensive it mostly
works through other agencies?



Garrett: It works through other agencies. But it has been moved into
the Department of Homeland Security. And in this crisis, It is a bit a
victim of its own bureaucratic boastfulness. Earlier this year the new
national response plan released by the Department of Homeland Security
promised this - "seemless integration of the federal government when
an incident exceeds local and state capabilities." In the minds of
many Americans, this one did. And FEMA, at least initially, in the
minds of some, did not respond enough.



Hume: The words seamless don't exactly spring to mind. But look, they
are down there, The Red Cross, for example, is there.



Garrett: Standing by, ready.



Hume: Standing by, ready. Why didn't FEMA send The Red Cross into New
Orleans when we had all of the people there on that bridge overpass
and elsewhere. Why not?



Garrett: First of all, no jurisdiction. FEMA works with The Red Cross,
The Salvation Army and other organizations but it has no control to
order them to go one place or the other. Secondarily, The Red Cross
was ready. I got off the phone with one of their officials. They had a
vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all
sorts of things ready to go where? To the Superdome and convention
center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana Department of Homeland
Security told them they could not go.



Hume: This is isn't the Louisiana branch of the federal Homeland
Security? This is --



Garrett: The state's own agency devoted to the state's homeland
security. They told them you cannot go there. Why? The Red Cross tells
me that state agency in Louisiana said, look, we do not want to
create a magnet for more people to come to the Superdome or convention
center, we want to get them out. So at the same time local officials
were screaming where is the food, where is the water? The Red Cross
was standing by ready, the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security
said you can't go.



Hume: FEMA does, presumably at some point, have some jurisdiction over
some military forces. Of course, the first responders there are the
National Guard. Why didn't FEMA send the National Guard in? You heard
that cry from many people.



Garrett: FEMA does not have jurisdictional control over any state's
National Guard, only the governor does. The governor in this case,
Kathleen Blanco, A democrat, did use the Louisiana National Guard for
some purposes, did not deploy them in massive numbers initially and
they were not used to move any of these relief organizations in and
they could have been for the very same reason I talked about earlier,
the state decided they didn't want the relief organizations where the
people needed it most because they wanted those people to get out.



Hume: But even today we know that Governor Blanco has now decided that
a mandatory evacuation may not be necessarily after all. But we can go
into that later. What about the use by her of the National Guard to
impose law and order during the early looting and all of that?



Garrett: She had a choice, as I am told. She could have taken up the
offer from FEMA to federalize all of the activities in Louisiana,
meaning that FEMA would be in control of everything. Not only law
enforcement, but everything else. She declined to give them that
authority. So essentially FEMA was trapped between two bureaucracies.
One the Department Of Homeland Security where many of its decisions
have to be reviewed and in some cases approved, and a recalcitrant
state bureaucracy that wasn't going to give them the authority they
needed to make things happen, among them, the National Guard.



Hume: What about this evacuation problem? It's clearly was something
that New Orleans faced, knew it faced to some extent.



Garrett: And the city [sic] of Louisiana. They have a whole plan that
contemplates dealing with an evacuation in the effect of a hurricane
three, four or five. Their own plan says, 100,000 residents minimum
from the New Orleans area will have to be evacuated. This plan makes
it clear ...



Hume: You mean, can't get out on their own.



Garrett: These people will have not have their own vehicles. Not only
that, It stipulate that these people are disproportionately poor, sick
and in need of special transportation assistance. Brit, I think in
these circumstances, bureaucratic language is important. Let's go to
this. This is what the state says: "the Department of Health and
Hospitals has the primary responsibility for providing medical
coordination for all of the special-needs populations, i.e. hospital
and nursing home patients, persons on home health care, elderly
persons and other persons with physical or mental disabilities." Brit,
I don't think you can come up with a better description of the people
we saw, day in and day out, at the Superdome and the convention
center, than this very population that the state's own plan said
needed to be transported to a safe place and provided services.



Hume: Apparently no plan, no provision, no facility for doing that.



Garrett: No facility for doing that. Not only that, those who
reviewed the plans the state put together before were critical of it.
In 2002 the New Orleans Times Picayune had a whole story about this
saying no one believes the evacuation plans are possible, feasible or
will be carried out. They proved to be accurate.



Hume: It sounds like the state will have much to answer for in the
investigation coming before Congress as well as the federal
government.



Garrett: It appears to be.

[hm0504]

Thanks hw for posting that article.

I get the overall impression that the United States simply does NOT have a standing, unified, potent, emergency reaction force. Frankly, that is absolutely nuts IMHO.

I would strongly suggest that the U.S. federal government have the power to declare and deploy an emergency reaction force (with the attributes I listed in my previous paragraph).

[KirkOntario]

I really hope the good folks of Louisiana get rid of this awful governor. All this woman has done is cry on T.V. during the worst crisis to hit.

And if this is true her strategy was to starve out her own people from the Superdome because she didn't want them staying at the refuge of last resort.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/09/08/004243.phpher

[KirkOntario]

Here's old weepy Governor Blanco trying to cover her (submerged) behind.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/EmergencyEvacuationbyBuses.pdf


"It's a pdf file of Blanco's executive order telling schools to get their buses into New Orleans to get people out of the city. It was issued on Aug. 31, at best (if she signed it at midnight) hours after the city flooded and that famous photo of the submerged buses started going around the web.

And the kicker, and you can find this on the Louisiana government website rather quickly, she amended the order on Sept. 2 to make sure that everyone driving the buses has a drivers' license. That's very important, I guess."
_________________

[jon71]

Governor Blanco has tirelessly worked for her people. Conservatives just don't want to admit Bush appointed the most incompetent fema chief in history and then made matters worse with putting fema under homeland security. Bush and his fema chief should each be procecuted for 10,000 counts of negligent homicide over this disaster. They should rot in prison for this. At a minimum impeachment is abundantly called for.

[Trailscout]

I think it would be irresponsible to rebuild the houses that are below sea level. No levee can be trusted completely. There is always the chance of it being overwhelmed in the future and taking more innocent lives with it.

[KirkOntario]

Yup.Blanco has been 'tireless'. When she's not trying to cover up her own mistakes she's trying to point blame at the Mayor of New Oreans and the federal government.


http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4934


"Governor Blanco has displayed throughout this
entire catastrophe seems a greater concern for politics than people. I am sure the governor made some hacks at the DNC very proud with her anti-Bush tirades while displaying all the virtues of an inept parish Police Juror.


Because Governor Blanco refused to talk tough when it was still possible to scare off thugs itching to loot, the city burst at its seams; after the destruction began, Governor Blanco failed to back up her new posture with action, chaos reigned, buildings were destroyed and people died. Now after the fact, things have calmed down with the dispatch of troops not necessarily from Louisiana."



As we enter the 7th day since Katrina reached Louisiana, the smoldering ruins of New Orleans are a testament to Governor Blanco´s incompetence and unwillingness to be firm with those who would use Katrina as a free pass to steal and kill at will, yet she appears angrier with the Bush Administration than the looters.



Legend has it when Rome burned, Emperor Nero, a musician and artist, played his lyre and sang. I wonder if Governor Blanco, known to be proud of her Cajun lineage, was playing a box accordion, a traditional Cajun-music instrument, at a time when New Orleans needed a Giuliani and got stuck with the anti-Rudy.

[Captain Zen]

While Dubya Still
Refuses Foreign Aid
By Wayne Madsen
Wayne Madsen Report.com
9-6-5

"Team Bush" is still refusing international aid.

* Russian rescue crews on four cargo planes with helicopters on board sit idle at an airport near Moscow waiting for green light,

* Cuba has 1500 doctors with 26 tons of medical supplies and Bush is refusing them entry to U.S.,

* Venezuelan disaster rescue teams wait for a "go,"

* Dominican Republic crews with hurricane recovery experience wait and wait and wait.

It's the same scene at airports around the world.

Meanwhile, FEMA turned back 8 buses from Washington, DC that were to bring 400 evacuees to the DC Armory which has been stockpiled with just about every need. The Bush regime has finally reached the crescendo of evil.

from: http://www.rense.com/general67/foraid.htm

[hm0504]

May I encourage you to read this article "Katrina" by Wesley Granberg-Michaelson, General Secretary of the Reformed Church of America:
http://www.rca.org/news/words/index.html

[Boreas]

Thanks for the article albinus. It is a good one and raises some very good points.

I look forward to seeing the comments that are made in response to it!

[Captain Zen]

Welcome to upside-down-land: the areas at risk for Katrina were quite remarkably the areas not included in Bush's declaration of emergency.

and here the graphics and explanation:
http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/637/1/

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
Thanks for the article albinus. It is a good one and raises some very good points.

I look forward to seeing the comments that are made in response to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I should have specified originally that credit for drawing my attention to the article goes to Rex at the My Nude Life forums.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
Thanks for the article albinus. It is a good one and raises some very good points.

I look forward to seeing the comments that are made in response to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I should have specified originally that credit for drawing my attention to the article goes to Rex at the My Nude Life forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might also enjoy Michael Moore's letter to President Bush. It is very good.It can be found at the following link. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2005-09-02

Enjoy!

[hm0504]

With regard to Michael Moore's letter,
I can't help but wonder if the three thousand that died in the WTC on 9/11 had been poor black people, that some right wing pundits would have said their fate was their own fault because they had neglected to wear fire-proof body armour equipped with a parachute to work. The pundits would point out how the WTC was attacked in 1993 and was likely to be attacked again so workers there should have shown some self-reliance amd taken proper precautions rather than relying on Uncle Sam to try and get them out.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
With regard to Michael Moore's letter,
I can't help but wonder if the three thousand that died in the WTC on 9/11 had been poor black people, that some right wing pundits would have said their fate was their own fault because they had neglected to wear fire-proof body armour equipped with a parachute to work. The pundits would point out how the WTC was attacked in 1993 and was likely to be attacked again so workers there should have shown some self-reliance amd taken proper precautions rather than relying on Uncle Sam to try and get them out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would very like be the case wouldn't it! The poor can't contribute big bucks to the politicians campaigns like the rich and powerful can!

I remember when Mike Harris was Premiere of Ontario. He accused the advocates of the poor of being "special interest groups". He did not consider the Bay Street bankers to be special interest groups. I guess it depends on whose interests interest you!

Call me cynical. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Captain Zen]

Everything to make life as hard as possible for the victims:

A select few get FEMA debit cards
San Jose Mercury News, United States - 11 hours ago
BATON ROUGE - Thousand of Hurricane Katrina evacuees will not get debit cards worth two-thousand dollars that are being distributed by FEMA. ...
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12601032.htm

[KirkOntario]

Priceless...says it all. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/?CartoonDate=09-09-2005

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
I remember when Mike Harris was Premiere of Ontario. He accused the advocates of the poor of being "special interest groups". He did not consider the Bay Street bankers to be special interest groups. I guess it depends on whose interests interest you!

Call me cynical. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and he cut welfare rolls, balanced the budget and greatest the greatest economic growth Ontario has seen yet.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
I remember when Mike Harris was Premiere of Ontario. He accused the advocates of the poor of being "special interest groups". He did not consider the Bay Street bankers to be special interest groups. I guess it depends on whose interests interest you!

Call me cynical. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and he cut welfare rolls, balanced the budget and greatest the greatest economic growth Ontario has seen yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, he cut welfare rolls.....and sent people to live on the streets. That is a good thing how??? His alleged balanced budget was because he had a highway to sell. His economic "growth" was done on the tails of the US which was experiencing economic growth at the time. Ontario benefitted from that, not from Mr. Harris's "wonderful" policies.

He was a great Premiere.....if you are a white, upper class man. As for the rest of the province, he was less than great. I saw that actual effects on real people. I did not rely on spin and rhetoric.

[KirkOntario]

--------------------------------------------------
Yup the Left is dancing on the graves of black people. I notice they really are heartened by this disaster.------------------------------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4805

"Yes, these are heady days for our left wing friends. The fact that their celebrations are taking place as a direct result of the distress, suffering, anguish and death of tens of thousands of their fellow citizens seems to not be of much concern to our morally superior betters. In fact, it has emboldened them to advance every crack pot theory on race and class that has poisoned American politics for going on forty years. One could say the left is dancing on the graves of black people, celebrating the exploitation of a political opening brought about by the incompetence of relief efforts in the largely black neighborhoods of New Orleans. Except for one thing: most of those graves are empty at the moment because the future les habitants haven’t even been plucked from the floodwaters yet."

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
Yup and he cut welfare rolls, balanced the budget and greatest the greatest economic growth Ontario has seen yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, he cut welfare rolls.....and sent people to live on the streets. That is a good thing how??? His alleged balanced budget was because he had a highway to sell. His economic "growth" was done on the tails of the US which was experiencing economic growth at the time. Ontario benefitted from that, not from Mr. Harris's "wonderful" policies.

He was a great Premiere.....if you are a white, upper class man. As for the rest of the province, he was less than great. I saw that actual effects on real people. I did not rely on spin and rhetoric.[/QUOTE]

Good try. But those 500,000 people who went off welfare went into the workforce. Unemployment dropped. I had client on legal aid who went out and got jobs as soon as they heard about 'workfare'. Government sent the right signals about work and dependency and Ontario and my clients were much happier and better off for it.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
Good try. But those 500,000 people who went off welfare went into the workforce. Unemployment dropped. I had client on legal aid who went out and got jobs as soon as they heard about 'workfare'. Government sent the right signals about work and dependency and Ontario and my clients were much happier and better off for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, one client cited does not 500,000 make. We are most likey going to continue to disagree so I will stop here. It is a discussion for another spot.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
Welcome to upside-down-land: the areas at risk for Katrina were quite remarkably the areas not included in Bush's declaration of emergency.

and here the graphics and explanation:
http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/637/1/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a remarkable map. Can't wait for the explanation:

http://www.bobharris.com/images/stories/Katrina/bushincompetencemap.gif

-Mark

[Captain Zen]

The expl. should be when you click the link.
Remarkable also another thing, that I have not yet seen any member who agrees with KO, are there any? A real Knock Out.

[Naturist Mark]

Molly Ivins (possibly the greatest Texan alive) lays it out bluntly and clearly - Who do we blame? Frankly, it's obvious (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0509080041sep08,1,2226896.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> FEMA was once considered one of our better federal agencies. Exactly why the right-wing Republicans chose to make FEMA a political football was never clear, unless you subscribe to the theory that they particularly dislike any government agency that helps people.

At any rate, going back to the Reagan administration, conservatives have been hacking away at FEMA; they mostly just underfunded it, one of their favorite tactics, unless a hurricane hit Florida just before an election. Sorry to sound boringly partisan, but that is the record, and the Clinton administration did work hard at rebuilding the agency.

So now those on the liberal side are saying: "See, that's what happens when you starve government in order to give rich folks tax cuts. Government agencies can't do the jobs they were set up to do."

Silly liberals see this as vindication that they have been right all along. But the Bush administration officials are in full blame-shifting mode: First, they announced repeatedly they don't want to "play the blame game." Then they start blaming everybody else.

According to The New York Times, Karl Rove and Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, began a campaign this weekend to blame local and state officials. The "woefully inadequate response," said "sources close to the White House," was the fault of "bureaucratic obstacles from state and local officials." [/list]

-Mark

[jon71]

The 51% of the public that voted for that moron basically put homer simpson in the white house.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist The "woefully inadequate response," said "sources close to the White House," was the fault of "bureaucratic obstacles from state and local officials." [/LIST]

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, and that is the case. Blanco is finished. Shows you what 60years of democratic rule in Louisianna brings you. Death and destruction.

[jon71]

Look at how desperate the Republicans are to shift the blame from their own colossal failure. Bush should be impeached just for appointing "brownie" to head fema if nothing else. Blanco made the best decision of anyone involved in this disaster. She got ahold of the man who led fema under Pres. Clinton. With a competent experience leader like that some headway is being made. Of course fed. incompetence is still slowing things down. Louisianna will not vote republican in a presidential race for a generation following this. A lot of Americans throughout the country won't either.

[Naturist Mark]

News from the New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE (http://www.nola.com/)

Wikipedia article on Hurricane Katrina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina)

How can you help?

Money.

Cash donations allow aid agencies to avoid the labor-intensive need to store, sort, pack and distribute donated goods. Donated money prevents, too, the prohibitive cost of air or sea transportation that donated goods require. Many emergency supplies can be purchased locally, helping put the local economy of affected areas back on it's feet.

American Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org/)
English: 800 HELP NOW (435 7669)
Spanish: 800 257 7575

America's Second Harvest (http://www.secondharvest.org/)
800 344 8070
Government Organizations:

Other Ways to Help

Do you have a spare room, bed or couch to offer a family fleeing hurricane Katrina?
www.hurricanehousing.org (http://www.hurricanehousing.org)

[Ren]

It's frightening that there are any lemmings left to follow this president over the cliff, but alas...

I'm white. I know there'd have been a quicker response if there were more people like me affected in New Orleans.

Last year, Florida got majorly quick responses to hurricanes. I don't think that the race issue touched it since the President needed a boost in the polls and his bro was the governor.

It couldn't be that the mayor and the governor are Democrats could it? I mean, the people who disparage these people who wound up begging for help, after the federal government had stripped them of their emergency preparedness funds, are simply deplorable and this is yet another masterful deflection.

Such is the way in W's America. It's too bad it's taking a disaster of this proportion to wake many in the country up.

[Bob S.]

The aftermath has showed a few things, one that anything can be made political and that, it seems, each political party is blaming the other one.

Two, we must take a serious second look at emergency disaster planning on all levels of government in all parts of the country.

NO residents had no food or water because of the ineptitude of local and state governments. The evacuation was mishandled, at first by not making the declaration until 24 hours before landfall, and then by not making any attempt to help those who could not get out. They also ruined their chance to get people out by not securing public buses at higher ground.

The public was starving because of a lack of planning of amassing food and water for the people in the shelters. BYOB is an inhumane way to run a shelter. And in all the time waiting for FEMA help, no one was sent in to supply the city with supplies.

The governor sent in some Nat. Guard troops, but didn't send in enough or with any supplies, which they could have easily brought in.

FEMA took way too much time to get down there to the disaster area and then had too much beurocracy stalling some other aid.

New Orleans residents were let down by every political leader that were entrusted to help them. Nobody got it right in this aftermath. Everyone failed the residents. It is a national travesty that should be looked upon as a teaching tool of how NOT to handle a disaster.

Bob S.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
And in all the time waiting for FEMA help, no one was sent in to supply the city with supplies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some supplies DID get in, during the same period of time that FEMA declared it impossible to get large amounts of supplies into the city WAL-MART (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501598.html&ei=Id0iQ9zGFc70aJWv2fUC) delivered 17 semi loads of food and water. The outlaw Wal-Mart corporation did NOT wait for permission, they just went.

I'm not much of a Wal-Mart fan, but give credit where it is due. Perhaps the people running Wal-Mart's relief program should be hired at FEMA.

-Mark

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist The "woefully inadequate response," said "sources close to the White House," was the fault of "bureaucratic obstacles from state and local officials." [/LIST]

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yup, and that is the case. Blanco is finished. Shows you what 60years of democratic rule in Louisianna brings you. Death and destruction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just heard an audio clip of the neo-con's favorite mouth, Rush Limbaugh, talking about the situation in New Orleans. As expected, he hit the talking point that situations like this develop when you have a culture of people waiting for the government to take action instead of personal responsibility. He actually said "these people even expected to government to build and maintain flood control devices for New Orleans." Who else would built them? Isn't that a function of government?

No doubt the neo-con's only belive in corporate welfare and not the protection of the population. Either that, or it's just the rantings of a "Hillbilly Heroin Addict".

[Captain Zen]

After you have all observed the workings of the USA government the last weeks, you still do not believe that it was all planned and executed to create the greatest possible number of victims, the greatest humilation and press the poorest in complete submission?

http://bellaciao.org/en/

Report from the Houston Astrodome...

10:23: Joel just got removed. Almost arrested. Fox News is down on the floor. I’m in dome, hiding in seats. They’re allowing some media on the floor, not others.

10:31 Just met members of the Polish press, they are being stopped from entering floor. Says this is like the former USSR.

10:57 Raw transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee : "The 17th street levee was bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers to save the more valuable real estate in the city... to keep the French Quarter protected, the ninth ward was sacrificed... people are afraid to speak out... everyone who was near there heard the bombings... they bombed seven times. That’s why they didn’t fix the levees... 20 feet of water. Gators. People dying in water. They let the parishes go, not the city center. Tourist trap was saved over human life. A six year old girl was raped in here.. 9 year old boy killed. A man in the shower beaten. No hot food. No help for elderly."

Another evacuee: "Over 20 rapes per night happening inside this place. They bring in national guard for media purposes. Bush wants us to stay here to raise his ratings. Some workers are stealing the good stuff, like shoes."

11:16: Rough transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee, male: "We are treated like prisoners here. Placed under mandatory curfew. We are citizens!"

11:22 Now I’m speaking to someone else, another woman, who says some people report having witnessed "bomb sounds," believe 17th street levee and others were blown up to manage water flow and protect more valuable portions of real estate.

Evacuee: "They blew the levee to save the city..." Saying a barge broke the levee. She is from St. Bernard Parish. "More expensive places were saved at the expense of the neighborhoods that aren’t as valuable... Rebuilding Bourbon Street matters more to the government... that’s what mattered to Governor Blanco..."

[Captain Zen]

For those with technical curiosity here are three links that refer to REAL weather control:
Is NO joke:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1694.cfm
http://rense.com/general67/weather.htm
http://worldvisionportal.org/wvpforum/viewtopic.php?t=296
After reading this, I be so obliged to read you comments.
Also see United Nations declaration from 29 years ago, article II.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1196a.html

God lives in the details...

[nudeM]

Posted by Christopher: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.....He actually said "these people even expected to government to build and maintain flood control devices for New Orleans." Who else would built them? Isn't that a function of government?..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>----------------------------------------------------------------
It is a functuion of government, Local government. The money was sent down for that very reason, but the local government officials instead, used the money for other projects.

[Captain Zen]

He said, she said, he blame she blame... It is all water under the bridge, and serves no purpose.
Take a stand against the present administration by all and every means, before your country is destroyed completely. This is only the third mess created by the neo cons, more will follow if nothing is done. ( Afghanistan, Iraq, New Orleans)

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario: Blanco is finished. Shows you what 60years of democratic rule in Louisianna brings you. Death and destruction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, so now the Dems are responsible for the hurricane??? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I'd like to see you explain that one. Or not. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Posted by Christopher: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.....He actually said "these people even expected to government to build and maintain flood control devices for New Orleans." Who else would built them? Isn't that a function of government?..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>----------------------------------------------------------------
It is a functuion of government, Local government. The money was sent down for that very reason, but the local government officials instead, used the money for other projects. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What other projects was this funding used for? In all of the government grants that I've seen the money can only be used for the specific purpose for which it was intended; there are all sorts of federal oversights that track spending just for this reason.

It would be appreciated if you could provide a link showing where you got this information (that the money for flood control was granted and spent on other local projects by the state/local gov't.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
...

I'm not much of a Wal-Mart fan, but give credit where it is due. Perhaps the people running Wal-Mart's relief program should be hired at FEMA.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second that and would also suggest that the FEMA top brass being replaced be given jobs as Wal-Mart clerks.

[Bob S.]

"Some supplies DID get in, during the same period of time that FEMA declared it impossible to get large amounts of supplies into the city WAL-MART delivered 17 semi loads of food and water."

So why did we see hundreds of thousands of starving, dehydrated people at the Superdone and Convention center? Where did that food get to? Why did the residents feel they had to take from the stores all of the food they needed? Where was the local and state governments with their truckloads of food and water? Why did so many people starve in NO?

The initial treatment of survivors fell squarely on the hands of the local and state governments to keep them safe and secure. They failed big time. They should have had tons of food at the ready for all of the residents of NO and any other parish that needed help. A category 5 hurricane was on a bee-;ine right for the city and they did nothing to prepare for it! That is the imcompotence that let them down in the beginning.

NO had a plan in case of a hurricane but they did not follow it. They did nothing! I am so upset at the actions of every politician involved in this fiasco, but it seems that I am one of the few who wants to smack Mayor Nagin on his arse for being so irresponsible--and then complaining in a late night rant that no one is helping his citizens--when he failed to help them in the beginning. And he still doesn't get it. If he had everything to do over, his response was "I'd yell louder." How about giving your citizens a chance to live by stockpiling food, water, and medical supplies where most of them are staying. How about showing some f'in leadership?

Sorry for that rant. I am just as ticked off at the seemingly free pass the Mayor and Governor are getting at the expense of FEMA, who yes, were way too slow.

Bob S.

[Captain Zen]

Dear BobS,
your rant is well placed, but should be directed at the top planners of this crime. A crime, not even of the same dimensions as the Iraq war. How many people are sufering over there? Not counting the thoudsands dead, just the living...
Try help one suffering soul and your place in Heaven is garanteed.
Did Jesus say that?

[Captain Zen]

Part of the plan to delay the rescuers were the "hooligans", undercover agents, to shoot at helicopters and police officers. To make sure the weakest would die and the sufferers would be as meek as the top wanted them to shuffle them around to where they wanted. Yes, I know it sounds too evil to be true, but do you have a better explanation? This all fits in the design of the devils in charge.

[nudeM]

Christopher, even though I do not have the facts stating that the funds were used elsewhere, the facts are not available to support your claim as well. Gets back to the 'he said, she said'.

Right here in California, money is always being converted from any fund the legislature can get their hands on. I'm sure that is also the case in other states as well, Louisiana included.

It's a shame there is no accounting for the monies being alloted for a specific cause. Look at the 9/11 funds. Those allocations were loosely given out, so it is now under federal investigation.

I still stand by what I stated, but until there is sufficient figures to back your claim, it makes one wonder who are the actual hoards.

[hm0504]

I do think there needs to be an independent inquiry (eg. not the one under the control of the White House) to investigate all levels of government involved in the disaster.

[Captain Zen]

Albinus, there ARE independent investigations ongoing. Where do you think I get my I get my info from? "Information Clearing House", Tom Paine", "Jeff Rense" to name a few. They all have independent reportrs chasing every bit of information and publishing it. No "White Lie House" needed.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
Albinus, there ARE independent investigations ongoing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but I meant an official and independent investigation.

[Captain Zen]

Such thing does not exist, "official" and "independent", are contradictions.

Paul Krugman: Point Those Fingers: Raw political power will be used to block any independent investigation.
the link to the article:
http://www.iht.com/protected/articles/2005/09/09/opinion/edkrug.php

[Qikdraw]

President signs executive order allowing contractors to pay below prevailing wage in affected areas. (http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/090905LA.shtml)

Yeah, real nice. Lets keep people in poverty as they try and rebuild their lives. What a putz he is. Typical Republican profiteering though. Discusting.

Qikdraw

[jon71]

The army corp of engineers were denied 80% of the money they requested for using to reinforce the levees of Lake Pontchartrain. With an expensive war in Iraq and the dept. of homeland security squandering in on airport scanners that don't work and tax cuts for the rich is it any wonder. In addition to the nearly 2000 good Americans who have died in vain in Iraq and 11,000 wounded now we have thousands dead on the gulf coast due to the failures of George Bush. Bin Laden murdered 3000 Americans. Bush has double maybe triple that much American blood on his hands. He is public enemy number one, the worst terrorist in history. When it comes to evil Bin Laden is Bush' understudy.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
"Some supplies DID get in, during the same period of time that FEMA declared it impossible to get large amounts of supplies into the city WAL-MART delivered 17 semi loads of food and water."

So why did we see hundreds of thousands of starving, dehydrated people at the Superdone and Convention center? Where did that food get to? Why did the residents feel they had to take from the stores all of the food they needed? Where was the local and state governments with their truckloads of food and water? Why did so many people starve in NO?

The initial treatment of survivors fell squarely on the hands of the local and state governments to keep them safe and secure. They failed big time. They should have had tons of food at the ready for all of the residents of NO and any other parish that needed help. A category 5 hurricane was on a bee-;ine right for the city and they did nothing to prepare for it! That is the imcompotence that let them down in the beginning.

NO had a plan in case of a hurricane but they did not follow it. They did nothing! I am so upset at the actions of every politician involved in this fiasco, but it seems that I am one of the few who wants to smack Mayor Nagin on his arse for being so irresponsible--and then complaining in a late night rant that no one is helping his citizens--when he failed to help them in the beginning. And he still doesn't get it. If he had everything to do over, his response was "I'd yell louder." How about giving your citizens a chance to live by stockpiling food, water, and medical supplies where most of them are staying. How about showing some f'in leadership?

Sorry for that rant. I am just as ticked off at the seemingly free pass the Mayor and Governor are getting at the expense of FEMA, who yes, were way too slow.

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to hold your anger until all of the truth comes out. It seems that now Wal-Mart is saying that many of their tractor-trailers full of supplies were diverted by FEMA who didn't want them to enter the effected areas.

The same radio news report also reported that the three Duke students who drove down to assist in the rescue operation (1) made it through in a Hyndai when FEMA was stating that the floods were too deep for their trucks to enter and (2) that when the students identified themselves as being there as part of the rescue operation they were turned away by FEMA. Yet, at a different point of entry they identified themselves as part of the press and were given entry.

If there is a thread of truth to all of the accusations coming to light you will need all of your anger to direct at FEMA and at those government figures that appointed political operatives and party faithful to FEMA positions instead of appointing those with a background in disaster management.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Christopher, even though I do not have the facts stating that the funds were used elsewhere, the facts are not available to support your claim as well. Gets back to the 'he said, she said'.

Right here in California, money is always being converted from any fund the legislature can get their hands on. I'm sure that is also the case in other states as well, Louisiana included.

It's a shame there is no accounting for the monies being alloted for a specific cause. Look at the 9/11 funds. Those allocations were loosely given out, so it is now under federal investigation.

I still stand by what I stated, but until there is sufficient figures to back your claim, it makes one wonder who are the actual hoards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Errr.. I think you have this backwards. You are stating that the project was funded and that the funds were reappropriated. I asked for some proof of that funding to which you said there are no facts to back-up that statement. Of what value is a statement "of fact" if it can't be backed-up by facts?

On the other hand, I said that when federal grants are granted the feds audit to make certain that the funds are used for their intended purpose. I see this all the time in both the academic world..and at home with federally funded projects in my county.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Posted by Christopher: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.....He actually said "these people even expected to government to build and maintain flood control devices for New Orleans." Who else would built them? Isn't that a function of government?..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>----------------------------------------------------------------
It is a functuion of government, Local government. The money was sent down for that very reason, but the local government officials instead, used the money for other projects. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much of it never got there to begin with!

http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-interest-to-white-peo...ew-orleans_1100.html (http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-interest-to-white-people/bush-slashed-funds-for-levee-repair-and-destroyed-new-orleans_1100.html)

[NudeAl]

Isn't it astonishing to see what some people believe about our government. I know FEMA is all F'ed up but some of the claims about US government agents formenting unrest and inciting riots etc., is really strange. I would hate to live in your world. I've got enough real stuff to worry about without letting my imagination run wild.

[Captain Zen]

Believing is not knowing. I believe nothing, but I like to look at the subject from every angle, and slowly a meaning forms in my thoughts, which I then immidiately dissmiss.
What happens here is too vast for many to grab, starting with the weather weapon theory and ending with 25,000 body bags, transfer tubes as G. Walker Bush calls them.
I wish he would walk now.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." J. Edgar Hoover

Agent provocateurs may have been planted to shoot at rescuers: Coast Guard Lieutenant Commander Cheri Ben-Iesan said, "there are people just taking pot-shots at police and at helicopters, telling them, 'You better come get my family."
Why would anyone shoot at potential rescuers? These provocateurs caused rescue efforts to be suspended and provided an excuse to declare martial law.

Governor Kathleen Blanco called them "hoodlums" and issued a warning: Hundreds of National Guard troops hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans.

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

Thus a disaster is turned into a proving ground for martial law.

from Makov
http://www.rense.com/general67/nwg.htm

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
The army corp of engineers were denied 80% of the money they requested for using to reinforce the levees of Lake Pontchartrain. With an expensive war in Iraq and the dept. of homeland security squandering in on airport scanners that don't work and tax cuts for the rich is it any wonder. In addition to the nearly 2000 good Americans who have died in vain in Iraq and 11,000 wounded now we have thousands dead on the gulf coast due to the failures of George Bush. Bin Laden murdered 3000 Americans. Bush has double maybe triple that much American blood on his hands. He is public enemy number one, the worst terrorist in history. When it comes to evil Bin Laden is Bush' understudy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

right so, looking at the number of dead in Iraq alone, Bush killed in 2 years so many that give him as many years as Saddam he is 7x worse...

[jon71]

As we see conservatives have trouble with the truth. A prime example is Bush living in his reality free bubble. If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. No wonder using the word "conservative" has become a polite way to call someone stupid.

[Captain Zen]

For you all my naked friends, a most comprehensive look at the disaster:

Hurricane Katrina and holocaust: Slow response or deliberate extermination?
By Larry Chin
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/090505Chin/090505chin.html

[NudeTopher]

Another day of the Bush vacation or a response to a disaster?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
The army corp of engineers were denied 80% of the money they requested for using to reinforce the levees of Lake Pontchartrain. With an expensive war in Iraq and the dept. of homeland security squandering in on airport scanners that don't work and tax cuts for the rich is it any wonder. In addition to the nearly 2000 good Americans who have died in vain in Iraq and 11,000 wounded now we have thousands dead on the gulf coast due to the failures of George Bush. Bin Laden murdered 3000 Americans. Bush has double maybe triple that much American blood on his hands. He is public enemy number one, the worst terrorist in history. When it comes to evil Bin Laden is Bush' understudy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am astonished to see that anyone could believe something like what you just posted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure why you'd be astonished to see people believing facts. I'd be astonished if it weren't believed.

Sorry but I've seen proof that what he said is for real. Not only online but on Sunday's political shows and also the other night Stone Phillips did a show on who was to blame and mentioned the same thing, how the money to upgrade the levees was drastically cut to fund Bush's war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9269337/

"Jack Stephens, Sherriff of St. Bernard Parish: We’ve seen people die in front of our eyes because they didn’t have adequate water and adequate medicine. It was like a scene from Exodus. No one can blame somebody else for an act of God. But the federal response to this disaster cost people lives. Their delinquency in getting just the fundamental things that it takes to stay alive, just water and medicine, just a little bit of food down here, cost people their lives."

It's all real.

Here is one of the links, there are lots more. There is no doubt as to this being genuine.

http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

All levels of government were not prepared but FEMA was the worst. According to Stone Phillips, because Bush declared it a disaster area BEFORE the hurricane hit, FEMA had the authority to go in as soon as that was done.

[Bob S.]

"I place the vast majority of the blame squarely on the mayor and governor."

Thank you MJ. But I have about a third of the blame on each of them.

"You might want to hold your anger until all of the truth comes out."

I am angry at the city of NO, the state of LA and FEMA equally. Nobody in charge did their job like they should have done.

You talk about Wal-Mart trucks loaded with supplies that couldn't get in because of FEMA after the hurricane. Well I want to know why the supplies were not already in the city before the storm.

Everybody knows what to do in case of a major hurricane. You should have non-perishable food and about a gallon of water per person per day for about three days. New Orleans had how much food and water stored up for the residents, who they knew were not going to be able to get out? None. Not even a complimentary water bottle at the entrance.

The question that should be asked is why? Why did the city not prepare for the storm? Why did they not follow basic instructions? Why wasn't an evacuation order given until the day before landfall? Why weren't any buses at the ready for evacuations post storm? Why did the city ignore all of the residents who have a very hard time moving due to sickness or age? Why did they not have EMTs or RNs at the shelter? Why did they not have enough police officers at the shelters?

You and others are discussing enough of FEMA's response (or lack thereof) and I am in somewhat agreement with you. They were incompotent in taking their time, but had the city and state done their jobs instead of sitting around with their thumbs stuck up their butts, the entire tragedy we saw unfold in teh days after Katrina would not have happened. People would have had food to eat and drink and a way to get out of the city.

That way, FEMA's job would have been much easier.

Who fell down on their job in allowing this to happen? Mayor Nagin, Gov. Blanco, and Michael Brown.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

"The army corp of engineers were denied 80% of the money they requested for using to reinforce the levees of Lake Pontchartrain."

jon, the levees on the lake were already reinforced. The ones that were completed were the ones that failed.

And it wouldn't have mattered anyway in terms of the funding. This was a 20 year project to reinforce all the levees and flood walls to withstand a Cat. 3 or 4 storm. Of course, this was a near Cat. 5 storm when it hit with probably a Cat. 5 storm surge.

You can reinforce NO all you want, but unless you build a 30 foot tall, 20 foot thick wall all around the city, a major hurricane will come in and flood it. Add on the fact that the city is sinking further every year and you are talking about a doomed city every hundred years or so.

Every ocean/bay/gulf beach resident is living on temorary land. It will be recalimed by the sea eventually. The whole of the East coast of the US is awaiting the Western Atlantic volcanic island (can't remember its name) to erupt and send a large portion of it tumbling into the ocean, causing a mega-tsunami that will wipe out every ocean facing beach up to at least a mile inland.

Bob S.

[Boreas]

Thanks for posting these links Cyndiann. I am constantly amazed at people who say that government (at any level) was not to blame for making this situation much worse than it needed to be. I was hearing the theme song for Monty Python in my head as I read those articles.

I saw something on TV yesterday (CNN?) and they were comparing this situation to 9/11 and saying there is no one leader taking charge the way Rudy Guilliani did in NYC. That does seem to be one critical difference.

Am I correct in remembering that flooding and destruction to New Orleans was a concern during last year's hurrican season?

Why does it take a catastrophe for people to get it?

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
"I place the vast majority of the blame squarely on the mayor and governor."

Thank you MJ. But I have about a third of the blame on each of them.

"You might want to hold your anger until all of the truth comes out."

I am angry at the city of NO, the state of LA and FEMA equally. Nobody in charge did their job like they should have done.

You talk about Wal-Mart trucks loaded with supplies that couldn't get in because of FEMA after the hurricane. Well I want to know why the supplies were not already in the city before the storm.

Everybody knows what to do in case of a major hurricane. You should have non-perishable food and about a gallon of water per person per day for about three days. New Orleans had how much food and water stored up for the residents, who they knew were not going to be able to get out? None. Not even a complimentary water bottle at the entrance.

The question that should be asked is why? Why did the city not prepare for the storm? Why did they not follow basic instructions? Why wasn't an evacuation order given until the day before landfall? Why weren't any buses at the ready for evacuations post storm? Why did the city ignore all of the residents who have a very hard time moving due to sickness or age? Why did they not have EMTs or RNs at the shelter? Why did they not have enough police officers at the shelters?

You and others are discussing enough of FEMA's response (or lack thereof) and I am in somewhat agreement with you. They were incompotent in taking their time, but had the city and state done their jobs instead of sitting around with their thumbs stuck up their butts, the entire tragedy we saw unfold in teh days after Katrina would not have happened. People would have had food to eat and drink and a way to get out of the city.

That way, FEMA's job would have been much easier.

Who fell down on their job in allowing this to happen? Mayor Nagin, Gov. Blanco, and Michael Brown.

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points! Add also, how was the elite Canadian rescue team able to get in to the area before any FEMA act? How were reporters and media able to get in if the government folks couldn't get in?

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Captain Zen]

The blame game in full force.
What does it change to knowe who did what?
Does it help anyone?
Does it save any lifes?
Stop this crying over spilled milk and think how to constructively go forward. Do not look back, but look at the NOW. People are promised a $2000 debit card, but no, they suddenly changed it in checks and depos on bankaccounts. How can these people cash them? Strangers in strange cities, lost ID's and unable to go anywhere without wheels. The scam continues, the poor must suffer more. There is no end in sight to the evil that Bush has made. Believe what you want, for me it is clear that the delays were part of the plan to create total control over the poorest people. They must now work for less than the minimum wages when they help to clear the mess, another devilish trick.

[jon71]

During the early nineties (I forget the exact year) the Mississippi river flooded doing a lot of damage in the region. New Orleans was untouched because the levees held. That was then. Due to "other priorities" they were not maintained as they should have been. That decision cost many lives. Sadly I believe Kanye West was right. Bush doesn't care about black people. For that matter I see no evidence that he cares for anyone other than his own wealthy white circle of like minded people. Remember the old joke, the Republican party's idea of a balanced ticket is two people from different oil companies. Not so funny anymore is it.

[Bob S.]

"What does it change to knowe who did what?"

Because Zen, we need to prevent this from happening again. Learn from history or you are condemned to repeat it.

"Stop this crying over spilled milk and think how to constructively go forward."

I do find it humorous that you would be chiding us for the blame game when you are suggesting the whole Hurricane was a conspriacy concocted by Bush. Take your own advice.

Bob S.

[Captain Zen]

History does not teach us anything, it only shows an endless repeating of the same stupid human behavior. The hiding your head in the past is like an ostrich hiding it in the sand, see not the present!
If you are a serious thinking human being and you have the best intentions for peace and happiness of all sentient being, go here:
http://www.osho.com/main.cfm?Area=Magazine&Sub1Menu=Fea...re2&Language=English (http://www.osho.com/main.cfm?Area=Magazine&amp;Sub1Menu=Features&amp;Sub2Menu= Feature2&amp;Language=English)

Here are just a few lines:

By saying that we have to work now to save the future, the report implies that the present situation is created by the past. But we are still clinging to the past in every way.

If we are responsible for the future, who is responsible for us?

We are created by the past, and we are living in misery.

We haven't created these problems; they have been created by the past humanity. If we really want to find solutions for the future, we have to discover the roots of these problems in the past.

By pruning the leaves of the trees nothing is changed -- you will have to cut the roots. And the moment you start at the roots, you will be in difficulty, because the politicians are in the roots, the organized religions are in the roots, all nations are in the roots -- and the very basic unit of the society is marriage, from which all our problems basically stem.

If we can dissolve marriage, the society dissolves, and as a by-product, nations, races, politicians and priests disappear; that is why they all insist on marriage -- they know it is the root, and that it is needed to keep man miserable and enslaved.

To have a different future from the one which will come on its own, we will have to disconnect ourselves from the past.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Look at how desperate the Republicans are to shift the blame from their own colossal failure. Bush should be impeached just for appointing "brownie" to head fema if nothing else. Blanco made the best decision of anyone involved in this disaster. She got ahold of the man who led fema under Pres. Clinton. With a competent experience leader like that some headway is being made. Of course fed. incompetence is still slowing things down. Louisianna will not vote republican in a presidential race for a generation following this. A lot of Americans throughout the country won't either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon: Was the best descision for Blanco to refuse to let the Salvation Army or Red Cross into New Orleans to assist the people who were stranded? Her logic was she didn't want the Superdome and Convention centres to be magnets for people as she wanted them to leave N.O. SHE caused the suffering. The Mayor of New Orleans did not evacuate the city. HE caused the conditions for the suffering. I hope the people there vote these two out of office ASAP.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
And in all the time waiting for FEMA help, no one was sent in to supply the city with supplies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some supplies DID get in, during the same period of time that FEMA declared it impossible to get large amounts of supplies into the city WAL-MART (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501598.html&ei=Id0iQ9zGFc70aJWv2fUC) delivered 17 semi loads of food and water. The outlaw Wal-Mart corporation did NOT wait for permission, they just went.

I'm not much of a Wal-Mart fan, but give credit where it is due. Perhaps the people running Wal-Mart's relief program should be hired at FEMA.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Individualism and private enterprise beat big goverment every time. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
Sorry but I've seen proof that what he said is for real. Not only online but on Sunday's political shows and also the other night Stone Phillips did a show on who was to blame and mentioned the same thing, how the money to upgrade the levees was drastically cut to fund Bush's war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9269337/
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good try. The money cut was to maintain not upgrade levies to weather a category 4 or 5 storm. The levees were only built and maintained for category 3 and N.O. politicians knew that for decades and knew that if the big one hit they would be in trouble. And the levee that broke had just all of the work done on it that was scheduled to be done.


Floridians know hurricanes and know how to deal with them. What's the verdict from Florida's hurrican people?. Louisiana did not have an adequate plan and failed to follow the flawed plan they had.

"Florida emergency planners criticized and even rebuked their counterparts -- or what passes for emergency planners -- in those states for their handling of Hurricane Katrina. Gov. Jeb Bush, the head of Florida AHCA and the head of Florida wildlife (which is responsible for all search and rescue) all said they made offers of aid to Mississippi and Louisiana the day before Katrina hit but were rebuffed. After the storm, they said they've had to not only help provide people to those states but also have had to develop search and rescue plans for them. "They were completely unprepared -- as bad off as we were before Andrew," one Florida official said."



http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/state/epaper...a_response_0910.html (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html)

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
During the early nineties (I forget the exact year) the Mississippi river flooded doing a lot of damage in the region. New Orleans was untouched because the levees held. That was then. Due to "other priorities" they were not maintained as they should have been. That decision cost many lives. Sadly I believe Kanye West was right. Bush doesn't care about black people. For that matter I see no evidence that he cares for anyone other than his own wealthy white circle of like minded people. Remember the old joke, the Republican party's idea of a balanced ticket is two people from different oil companies. Not so funny anymore is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon the storm that hit N.O. was the big one that had never hit the city before. The levees did not break because they were not maintained. They broke because they were not designed to deal with a category 4 storm and were vulnerable after the storm.

[Captain Zen]

Hairsplitting he said, she said in perpetuem. The sound of old ***gots: out of tune with reality.
Start a new melody pls, this thread is losing its credebility.

The only question asked in a survey was:

"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure:


- In Africa they didn't know what 'food' meant,

- In India they didn't know what 'honest' meant,

- In Europe they didn't know what 'shortage' meant,

- In China they didn't know what 'opinion' meant,

- In the Middle East they didn't know what 'solution' meant,

- In South America they didn't know what 'please' meant,

- In the USA they didn't know what 'the rest of the world' meant.

[Captain Zen]

I do find it humorous that you would be chiding us for the blame game when you are suggesting the whole Hurricane was a conspriacy concocted by Bush. Take your own advice.
Bob S

And you think it was just an "accident"???

[shomymojo]

Kirk...you are wasting your time...the Bushbashers...in my party all have tunnel vision...because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush...but they do not speak for all Democrats...and IMHO...we Democrats have enough work to do to clean up our own house...before we can start to point fingers at the Republicans

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shomymojo:
Kirk...you are wasting your time...the Bushbashers...in my party all have tunnel vision...because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush...but they do not speak for all Democrats...and IMHO...we Democrats have enough work to do to clean up our own house...before we can start to point fingers at the Republicans </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know but they can be shown to be so wrong so easily it's rather great fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vitriolic hatred?

It's always made to sound as if we are like rabid dogs, hating someone for no reason.

It's not hate, it's disgust and disbelief.

It's a result of incident after incident, adding up to make it so plain to see that Bush has seriously damaged the entire planet with his short sightedness.

We see fact after fact build up into a wall of lies. We see progress made by past presidents torn down and stomped on.

We see our rights taken away. We see Bush promise increased security while the facts show it's worse than it's ever been.

Most of all it's surprise that others are so blind to what is so obvious. It can't be that people are that stupid. You must be intentionally not wanting to see.

[jon71]

Kirk makes it obvious that the right wing is a reality free zone. Very, very sad. We tell them the truth but they refuse to deal with it, choosing to live in their fantasy world where conservative ideas work rather than show them to be the fools they are. Unfortunately many people have died for the mistakes of Bush and his crowd but they do not care. They would rather see many more Americans die than admit fault. They try excuse after excuse to avoid reality. I wonder if Kirk et. al. deep down believe their own fantasies or if the truth haunts them in bed at night.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
Yes, I know but they can be shown to be so wrong so easily it's rather great fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my, the great and morally superior Kirk has spoken. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vitriolic hatred?

It's always made to sound as if we are like rabid dogs, hating someone for no reason.

It's not hate, it's disgust and disbelief.

It's a result of incident after incident, adding up to make it so plain to see that Bush has seriously damaged the entire planet with his short sightedness.

We see fact after fact build up into a wall of lies. We see progress made by past presidents torn down and stomped on.

We see our rights taken away. We see Bush promise increased security while the facts show it's worse than it's ever been.

Most of all it's surprise that others are so blind to what is so obvious. It can't be that people are that stupid. You must be intentionally not wanting to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good Cyndiann. Why is it that it is so wrong to criticise Bush? There is such a wall of propaganda and spin around him it is scary. Also, his followers spew out the same lines over and over again. Are they programed?

[KirkOntario]

There's a name for it: Bush Derangment Syndrome.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20031205.shtml

Charles Krauthammer coined it. Hilarious.

"Bush Derangement Syndrome: the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush.

Moreover, Dean is very smart. Until now, Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS) had generally struck people with previously compromised intellectual immune systems. Hence its prevalence in Hollywood. Barbra Streisand, for example, wrote her famous September 2002 memo to Dick Gephardt warning that the president was dragging us toward war to satisfy, among the usual corporate malefactors who ``clearly have much to gain if we go to war against Iraq,'' the logging industry -- timber being a major industry in a country that is two-thirds desert. "

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shomymojo:
Kirk...you are wasting your time...the Bushbashers...in my party all have tunnel vision...because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush...but they do not speak for all Democrats...and IMHO...we Democrats have enough work to do to clean up our own house...before we can start to point fingers at the Republicans </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending which poll you look at..the Bush approval rating has plummented to between 38-41%;and all time low. Between the war in Iraq, the forgotten hunt for Bin Laden (remember him?) and what even the Republican's are calling "Bush's apparant indifference to the flood ravaged South" even his political base is becoming more and more alienated. No doubt you see it as only a few Bushbashers as being dissatified with his performance.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">because of their vitriolic hatred for President Bush </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vitriolic hatred?

It's always made to sound as if we are like rabid dogs, hating someone for no reason.

It's not hate, it's disgust and disbelief.

It's a result of incident after incident, adding up to make it so plain to see that Bush has seriously damaged the entire planet with his short sightedness.

We see fact after fact build up into a wall of lies. We see progress made by past presidents torn down and stomped on.

We see our rights taken away. We see Bush promise increased security while the facts show it's worse than it's ever been.

Most of all it's surprise that others are so blind to what is so obvious. It can't be that people are that stupid. You must be intentionally not wanting to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good Cyndiann. Why is it that it is so wrong to criticise Bush? There is such a wall of propaganda and spin around him it is scary. Also, his followers spew out the same lines over and over again. Are they programed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually they are!

The more they repeat the Rove issued talking points the more they start to believe them. Never let the truth get in the way of good talking point.

Whereas Reagan admitted he made a mistake with the Iran Contras and that admission allowed him to move on with his presidency...Bush will never admit to an error. In his mind, admitting an error would bring down the whole house of cards.

[Captain Zen]

Bush is only a puppet/mouthpiece, he is not the real devil, those behind him in the shadow are the ones that pushed him to the foreground. Leave him alone, he is a psycho and has no importance, will be replaced with another madman. Please do take on those behind him.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher
Actually they are!

The more they repeat the Rove issued talking points the more they start to believe them. Never let the truth get in the way of good talking point.

Whereas Reagan admitted he made a mistake with the Iran Contras and that admission allowed him to move on with his presidency...Bush will never admit to an error. In his mind, admitting an error would bring down the whole house of cards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The scary thing is the programming seems to have crossed the border into Ontario with our esteemed poster from Ontario here. You don't generally hear such adoration of Bush on this side of the border.

[hm0504]

It is amusing that those who regard anyone who dares to criticize Bush or radical right Republicans as either terrorists, traitors, or mentally deranged do not use the same terms to describe themselves when they continually berate Clinton and every other non-Republican/Conservative person whose name gets mentioneed here.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S... (removed for conciseness) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points! Add also, how was the elite Canadian rescue team able to get in to the area before any FEMA act? How were reporters and media able to get in if the government folks couldn't get in?

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, here's a news story regarding the Canadian rescue team Still_Boreas mentioned:
"Canadians beat U.S. Army to New Orleans suburb"
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050908/wl...ans_neworelans_col_1 (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&amp;u=/nm/20050908/wl_canada_nm/canada_canadians_neworelans_col_1)

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
It is amusing that those who regard anyone who dares to criticize Bush or radical right Republicans as either terrorists, traitors, or mentally deranged do not use the same terms to describe themselves when they continually berate Clinton and every other non-Republican/Conservative person whose name gets mentioneed here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amusing and scary.

Don't forget the "woolly liberal thinking" that abounds in the world today.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
It is amusing that those who regard anyone who dares to criticize Bush or radical right Republicans as either terrorists, traitors, or mentally deranged do not use the same terms to describe themselves when they continually berate Clinton and every other non-Republican/Conservative person whose name gets mentioneed here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad someone else noticed. The neo-cons co-opted the language and define themselves as patriots and everyone else as a traitor or the enemy. To win elections they appeal to the biblical base/rapture rightists...but once the election is over they go back to serving their only diety-Corporate Greed!

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher
Actually they are!

The more they repeat the Rove issued talking points the more they start to believe them. Never let the truth get in the way of good talking point.

Whereas Reagan admitted he made a mistake with the Iran Contras and that admission allowed him to move on with his presidency...Bush will never admit to an error. In his mind, admitting an error would bring down the whole house of cards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The scary thing is the programming seems to have crossed the border into Ontario with our esteemed poster from Ontario here. You don't generally hear such adoration of Bush on this side of the border. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he is indeed on your side of the border...please keep him there. We have enough neo-cons wanting to destroy humanity and social justice here. In this particular case, I am for strong borders! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:

The scary thing is the programming seems to have crossed the border into Ontario with our esteemed poster from Ontario here. You don't generally hear such adoration of Bush on this side of the border. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad to hear most Canadians haven't fallen for it!

[Boreas]

No, I don't know too many Canadians who love GW. But then again, I work in the social service field with people who are negatively affected by the cuts and neo-con thinking. You won't find too many Bush supporters in my circle at least!

We have had some leaders such as the premieres of Ontario (former thankfully), Alberta and currently BC who follow that line of thinking. Also, our Prime Minister has been accused of being very right wing. Right now though he has to toe a line a bit because of the current make up of the Canadian Parliament. In spite of these people, I think you will still find that they are still pretty liberal compared to some of the stuff you guys deal with. Also, Canadians generally won't put up with some of that stuff in the same way. We as a nation handle the social issues differently from the US. It has to do with the history of our nations.

We do tend to follow trends started in the US though. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Hey, news flash!

The director of FEMA has just "resigned"!

[Boreas]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/12/brown_resigns_20050912.html

Interesting.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
Hey, news flash!

The director of FEMA has just "resigned"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GASP! NOW WHAT A SURPRISE!If the current occupant of the Oval Office followed the slogan "...the buck stops here..." then he too would be forced to resign. After all, he hand picked Brown, a political hack, he claimed to support his buddy "Brownie" in his endeavors, maybe he could follow him back to private life.

But Topher, he was a failure at private life!

[Nu]

I think the focus is too heavy on Bush, Brown, and FEMA.
Yes, there was an extreme delay in assisting the hurricane survivors.

But, the greater error goes to the local and state governments in New Orleans and Louisiana and the cities, towns, and states nearby.
These areas did not have the infrastructure in place to handle a high powered hurricane and they did not have a proper evacuation plan for the residents.
As a result, there was severe loss of life, suffering, and property damage.
Failing lobbying for federal financial support, the state and local governments should have footed the bill for the construction of stronger and bigger structures to hold back the water.
Perhaps, a tax on tourist spending (hotel or entertainment tax) would have assisted.

Now, these areas are facing huge reconstruction costs, tourist spending will fall tremendously;tax collection revenue will be significantly down.


A plan of action should have been in place, in advance, to evacuate those residents that had no means to leave the area.
Lives lost here is the worst result of the whole situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">think the focus is too heavy on Bush, Brown, and FEMA.
Yes, there was an extreme delay in assisting the hurricane survivors.

But, the greater error goes to the local and state governments in New Orleans and Louisiana and the cities, towns, and states nearby. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not according to the special I saw with Stone Phillips the other night. They concluded that most of the blame was on FEMA. Not only did FEMA fail to act, they interferred with those already in place, causing those that were actually doing something to lose their effectiveness.

FEMA had the authority to start helping as soon as Bush declared it a disaster area and that was done BEFORE Katrina hit.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
Hey, news flash!

The director of FEMA has just "resigned"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GASP! NOW WHAT A SURPRISE!If the current occupant of the Oval Office followed the slogan "...the buck stops here..." then he too would be forced to resign. After all, he hand picked Brown, a political hack, he claimed to support his buddy "Brownie" in his endeavors, maybe he could follow him back to private life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are such a dreamer! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Captain Zen]

You will see that nobody gets fired except Brown, who was chosen for this, he would take the blame, no prob, he'll have a nice job soon somewhere else. All the delays were planned, in order to kill as many poor and old and weak as possible. That some recuers sneeked in was against the idea, they should have been stopped if seen. Who does not see this evident evil plan?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10257.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10241.htm

Another news story just on.

Lots of firefighters volunteered to help out. FEMA sent them to two days of classes not related to their job. Then they sat till day 6. After that they were sent to be the backdrop for a Bush visit but didn't get there in time. About day nine they complained and were sent home, not rescuing a single person.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
Another news story just on.

Lots of firefighters volunteered to help out. FEMA sent them to two days of classes not related to their job. Then they sat till day 6. After that they were sent to be the backdrop for a Bush visit but didn't get there in time. About day nine they complained and were sent home, not rescuing a single person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's not an indication that they wanted not to rescue those in need....Only those who where fit enough should survive, Darwin all over.
Survival of the fittest, no "Intelligent Design"

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
But Topher, he was a failure at private life! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which one was a failure at private life, Bush, Brown, or both of them? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Of course it was their failures that provided the shared experience for their friendship.

Actually, Bush has redeemed himself to his beloved energy company buddies. They profits that they are now raking in were beyond their wildest dreams!

As gasoline nears $4.00/gallon how could a president with familial ties to both the energy industry and the Saudi royals not be a hero to those circles?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nu:
Failing lobbying for federal financial support, the state and local governments should have footed the bill for the construction of stronger and bigger structures to hold back the water.
Perhaps, a tax on tourist spending (hotel or entertainment tax) would have assisted.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't you be vanquished from the Republican Party for suggesting a tax?

[hm0504]

Nu, while city and state officials actions and inactions prior to the impact of Hurricane Katrina need to be closely analyzed, there are important reasons why FEMA is being given particularly critical attention.

Over the past few years, tens of billions of dollars have gone into Homeland Security and FEMA (part of Homeland Security). After 9/11, four years after 9/11, the idea was that the U.S. should be superbly equipped to handle a completely unexpected disaster such as terrorists setting off a WMD in a city.

Whatever the failings of New Orleans city and Louisiana state officials, once New Orleans and much of Louisiana had been devestated, FEMA needed to kick in quickly and smartly. It failed miserably. Michael Harris of the Ottawa Sun has an excellent article about this:
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael...5/09/02/1198586.html (http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael/2005/09/02/1198586.html)

[Naturist Mark]

Lest people think that local officials are escaping their share of the blame for the bungled response to the disaster, let's look at the truly despicable actions of some security officials who actively contributed to the death and suffering in New Orleans:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> Cops trapped survivors in New Orleans (http://washtimes.com/upi/20050908-112433-4907r.htm)

Police from surrounding jurisdictions shut down several access points to one of the only ways out of New Orleans last week, effectively trapping victims of Hurricane Katrina in the flooded and devastated city.
An eyewitness account from two San Francisco paramedics posted on an internet site for Emergency Medical Services specialists says, "Thousands of New Orleaners were prevented and prohibited from self-evacuating the city on foot."
"We shut down the bridge," Arthur Lawson, chief of the City of Gretna Police Department, confirmed to United Press International, adding that his jurisdiction had been "a closed and secure location" since before the storm hit.
"All our people had evacuated and we locked the city down," he said.
The bridge in question -- the Crescent City Connection -- is the major artery heading west out of New Orleans across the Mississippi River.
Lawson said that once the storm itself had passed Monday, police from Gretna City, Jefferson Parrish and the Louisiana State Crescent City Connection Police Department closed to foot traffic the three access points to the bridge closest to the West Bank of the river.
He added that the small town, which he called "a bedroom community" for the city of New Orleans, would have been overwhelmed by the influx.
...
"If we had opened the bridge, our city would have looked like New Orleans does now: looted, burned and pillaged."
...
Two paramedics, who were trapped in the city while attending a convention, joined a group of people who had been turned out by the hotels that they were staying in on Wednesday. When the group attempted to get to the Superdome -- designated by city authorities as a shelter for those unable to evacuate -- they were turned away by the National Guard.
"Quite naturally, we asked ... 'What was our alternative?' The guards told us that that was our problem, and no, they did not have extra water to give to us.
"This would be the start of our numerous encounters with callous and hostile law enforcement."
As they made their way to the bridge in order to leave the city "armed Gretna sheriffs (sic) formed a line across the foot of the bridge. Before we were close enough to speak, they began firing their weapons over our heads."
Members of the group nonetheless approached the police lines, and "questioned why we couldn't cross the bridge ... They responded that the West Bank was not going to become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their City.
"These were code words," the paramedics wrote, "for if you are poor and black, you are not crossing the Mississippi River and you were not getting out of New Orleans."
The authors say that during the course of that day, they saw "other families, individuals and groups make the same trip up the incline in an attempt to cross the bridge, only to be turned away. Some chased away with gunfire, others simply told no, others to be verbally berated and humiliated." [/list]

In my opinion, we need to begin expanding Gitmo to receive some homegrown terrorists.

-Mark

[Captain Zen]

I wish I had it wrong from the beginning, but now it starts to look as if I had it right.
Which devils gave such commands to the cops? Delay, delay some more, live and let die...

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
No, I don't know too many Canadians who love GW. But then again, I work in the social service field with people who are negatively affected by the cuts and neo-con thinking. You won't find too many Bush supporters in my circle at least!

We have had some leaders such as the premieres of Ontario (former thankfully), Alberta and currently BC who follow that line of thinking. Also, our Prime Minister has been accused of being very right wing. Right now though he has to toe a line a bit because of the current make up of the Canadian Parliament. In spite of these people, I think you will still find that they are still pretty liberal compared to some of the stuff you guys deal with. Also, Canadians generally won't put up with some of that stuff in the same way. We as a nation handle the social issues differently from the US. It has to do with the history of our nations.

We do tend to follow trends started in the US though. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and we Canadians as a nation are paying a heavy price. Our influence in foreign affairs has fallen sharply. We could not muster 40,000 troops if we had the same disaster as befell New Oreans. We cannot even transport our troops to hot spots around the world such as Afghanistan to pull our weignt in NATO, assist failed states or participate in peace keeping. We have to hitch a ride with the Americans. We are losing our sovereignty over the North. Denmark raises it's flag on a Canadian island and the best we can do is send one of our few naval ships by to make ever increasing claims on sovereignty. We risk losing sovereignty over much of the north.

Our standard of living compared to Americans has fallen. The average Canadian made 90 cents of what the average American made 13 years ago. Today that Canadian makes only 75 cents. The middle class is burdend with taxes and has no higher standard of living than 13 years ago. Our vaunted health care system is in decline; people are dying and in pain but cannot choose to seek private treatment because the governmetn creates a monopoly on healthcare which is increasing in cost but declining in service.

We could use a few more "neo-con' ideas on this side of the border. That liberal thinking has lead to stagnation, decline and a loss of importance in the world for Canada.

[Captain Zen]

Sick, sick, sick....
Here the story of an old con, the neo cons use his wisdom...
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

[KirkOntario]

Hmmm official death count is still less than 300. Of course that not the final number but you would think it would higher by now. What happened to those 10,000 bodies the media was so excited about?

[jon71]

Excited is absolutely the wrong word. Try dreaded. Thankfully it looks like less, maybe in the low thousands not 10. Better but still way too many.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Excited is absolutely the wrong word. Try dreaded. Thankfully it looks like less, maybe in the low thousands not 10. Better but still way too many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh they wanted it to be higher so they could pin it on Bush but it's turning out to be much lower.

[Captain Zen]

Oh yes, when LUIS(5) hit my island ten years ago exactly, the official count was 8 dead, military and social workers told later about freezer containers shipped 400 bodies to San Juan cremation facilities.
Why did the city of NO order 25,000 body bags???
The right number of dead from Iraq and Afghanistan will likewise not be revealed by the neo cons, lest it shows their mad designs to all the world to see. Only those who die in action inside Iraqi borders are counted. As soon as bomb mangled shot up John Doe is on the plane to the German hospital and expires before take off, he does not get on the dead in Iraq list...

[Captain Zen]

http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/09/from_blame_game.php
From Blame Game to Numbers Game
Posted by James Wolcott
The mayor of New Orleans predicted the death toll from Hurricane Katrina could reach 10,000. Officials at the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team--DMORT, an apt acronym--guesstimated the death toll at 40,000. Splitting the difference somewhat, authorities reportedly sent 25,000 body bags into the stricken region to accomodate human remains. But a recent sweep of New Orleans turned up fewer fatalities than feared, "suggesting that Hurricane Katrina's death toll may not be the catastrophic 10,000 feared."

Casualty figures are often high-ranged at the outset, dropping as the smoke and water clears. But any number substantially higher than 3,000 dead presents a political and symbolic dilemma for the most avid advocates of the War on Terror (or World War IV, if you're a Norman Podhoretz devotee). It may seem cold and inhuman to apply a political calculus to casualty figures. Every death is an individual tragedy with a radius sorrow extending to friends, family, and coworkers--no one's life should be reduced to a digit. But it foolhardy to ignore how the death toll (high or low) will be spun by conservatives, who have already begun twirling their tops.

Here's why they're in spin mode. Since 9/11, "3000" has been elevated to a sacred, symbolic number in political discourse. It has been the solemn chord struck again and again by Donald Rumsfeld at his press briefings and public addresses--"It's important to keep in mind that the civilized world passed the 1,000th casualty mark at the hands of extremists long ago; I mean, 3,000 on September 11th alone"--and a recurring talking point to justify the invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein. It has provided the grim refrain Victor Davis Hanson has gonged in column after column to lend greater reverberation to his preachings from the ramparts:
When one of those leftist critics, Norman Mailer, deplored the bloated vanity of American self-involvement post-9/11 and pointed out that 3000 dead was statistically small in a population our size--"By such heartless means of calculation, the 3000 deaths in the Twin Towers came approximately to one mortality for every 90,000 Americans. Your chances of dying if you drive a car are one in 7,000 each year. We seem perfectly ready to put up with automobile statistics. I fear I am ready to say there is a tolerable level to terror..."--conservatives rushed out to renew their distemper shots, they were so spitting mad.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
No, I don't know too many Canadians who love GW. But then again, I work in the social service field with people who are negatively affected by the cuts and neo-con thinking. You won't find too many Bush supporters in my circle at least!

We have had some leaders such as the premieres of Ontario (former thankfully), Alberta and currently BC who follow that line of thinking. Also, our Prime Minister has been accused of being very right wing. Right now though he has to toe a line a bit because of the current make up of the Canadian Parliament. In spite of these people, I think you will still find that they are still pretty liberal compared to some of the stuff you guys deal with. Also, Canadians generally won't put up with some of that stuff in the same way. We as a nation handle the social issues differently from the US. It has to do with the history of our nations.

We do tend to follow trends started in the US though. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and we Canadians as a nation are paying a heavy price. Our influence in foreign affairs has fallen sharply. We could not muster 40,000 troops if we had the same disaster as befell New Oreans. We cannot even transport our troops to hot spots around the world such as Afghanistan to pull our weignt in NATO, assist failed states or participate in peace keeping. We have to hitch a ride with the Americans. We are losing our sovereignty over the North. Denmark raises it's flag on a Canadian island and the best we can do is send one of our few naval ships by to make ever increasing claims on sovereignty. We risk losing sovereignty over much of the north.

Our standard of living compared to Americans has fallen. The average Canadian made 90 cents of what the average American made 13 years ago. Today that Canadian makes only 75 cents. The middle class is burdend with taxes and has no higher standard of living than 13 years ago. Our vaunted health care system is in decline; people are dying and in pain but cannot choose to seek private treatment because the governmetn creates a monopoly on healthcare which is increasing in cost but declining in service.

We could use a few more "neo-con' ideas on this side of the border. That liberal thinking has lead to stagnation, decline and a loss of importance in the world for Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kirk, I do not understand why you continue to live in Canada if you find it so repulsive. It surely sounds like you need to move to one of the more conservative states.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
As gasoline nears $4.00/gallon how could a president with familial ties to both the energy industry and the Saudi royals not be a hero to those circles? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gas in down 55 cents from its high here in Kansas City. It is going for $2.799

It went up fast and is coming down pretty fast too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now calculate the additional revenues and profits enjoyed by the fossil fuel companies.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Excited is absolutely the wrong word. Try dreaded. Thankfully it looks like less, maybe in the low thousands not 10. Better but still way too many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh they wanted it to be higher so they could pin it on Bush but it's turning out to be much lower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please. How is this statement any better than what you accuse the "Liberals" and their wooly (sic) thinking?

[Bob S.]

This topic, which has turned into a political blame game with such strong emotions coming from all sides has amassed 11 pages and 202 (so far--203 counting this one) replies in only 8 days.

But DJ Guy's topic, A Nice Prayer For All Those In New Orleans (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6500016152/m/5790034173) has existed for about five days and amassed six replies.

This is part of the problem with not only this country, but the world in general. Much better to be angry than sympathetic. Much better to criticize than to offer condolences.

I want to see more people who have spoken on this topic to go to that topic and offer their own nice words of kindness to all who have suffered. Shame of all of us.

Bob S.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Excited is absolutely the wrong word. Try dreaded. Thankfully it looks like less, maybe in the low thousands not 10. Better but still way too many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh they wanted it to be higher so they could pin it on Bush but it's turning out to be much lower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please. How is this statement any better than what you accuse the "Liberals" and their wooly (sic) thinking? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What she said!

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:Kirk, I do not understand why you continue to live in Canada if you find it so repulsive. It surely sounds like you need to move to one of the more conservative states. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not find Canada 'repusive'. I believe it is on the wrong track. I and millions of other Canadian are determined to set things right. Thank you for your concern but I am not required to leave my own country simply because I disagree with the policies of its current (corrupt) government.

BTW look up the spelling of 'wooly'. That is a perfectly acceptable spelling. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
This topic, which has turned into a political blame game with such strong emotions coming from all sides has amassed 11 pages and 202 (so far--203 counting this one) replies in only 8 days.

But DJ Guy's topic, A Nice Prayer For All Those In New Orleans (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6500016152/m/5790034173) has existed for about five days and amassed six replies.

This is part of the problem with not only this country, but the world in general. Much better to be angry than sympathetic. Much better to criticize than to offer condolences.

I want to see more people who have spoken on this topic to go to that topic and offer their own nice words of kindness to all who have suffered. Shame of all of us.

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I am missing the point, maybe it's you that's missing the point.

By now, pretty much all of us have donated to the best of our abilities. We have taken action based upon our economic ability.

If I understand your post, you are either (A) asking us to pray for those that have been devestated or (B) express our written condolences for those that have lost everything.

If it's the later, those words would be meaningless. I can assure you that those that have lost their homes and loved ones are not surfing here looking for comfort. If it's the former then our actions (donations) speak for themselves.

Waxing poetic may make you feel better, but it doesn't accomplish anything.

I would hope that more then a few of us that post here are getting more and more involved in politics (off the net) and that can help effect the change that is needed to better the current situation in the American South and to prevent such utter neglect in future storms and disasters.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
As gasoline nears $4.00/gallon how could a president with familial ties to both the energy industry and the Saudi royals not be a hero to those circles? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gas in down 55 cents from its high here in Kansas City. It is going for $2.799

It went up fast and is coming down pretty fast too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now calculate the additional revenues and profits enjoyed by the fossil fuel companies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They have a product to sell that became in short supply because of a natural disaster. People buying the oil and gas for distribution bid up the price in response to this situation. That is how things work unless you would prefer government price controls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, we don't have government price controls on fossil fuels (and won't while we have an administration that favors corporate rights over individual freedoms and rights - but that is way off topic). Nonetheless, there are laws in most places against price gouging and profiteering during times of emergencies.

If you had the only gas station in a town that had electricty during a disaster, you could not decide to charge $100/gallon just because of the large demand and limited supply; if there are price control protections on the local level why not on a national level to protect the population from the major oil companies?

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Excited is absolutely the wrong word. Try dreaded. Thankfully it looks like less, maybe in the low thousands not 10. Better but still way too many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh they wanted it to be higher so they could pin it on Bush but it's turning out to be much lower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think anyone who would conceive that people who do not support Bush would be glad if thousands died in New Orleans must be either extremely obnoxious and/or have a sick, sick mind.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
No, I don't know too many Canadians who love GW. But then again, I work in the social service field with people who are negatively affected by the cuts and neo-con thinking. You won't find too many Bush supporters in my circle at least!

We have had some leaders such as the premieres of Ontario (former thankfully), Alberta and currently BC who follow that line of thinking. Also, our Prime Minister has been accused of being very right wing. Right now though he has to toe a line a bit because of the current make up of the Canadian Parliament. In spite of these people, I think you will still find that they are still pretty liberal compared to some of the stuff you guys deal with. Also, Canadians generally won't put up with some of that stuff in the same way. We as a nation handle the social issues differently from the US. It has to do with the history of our nations.

We do tend to follow trends started in the US though. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and we Canadians as a nation are paying a heavy price. Our influence in foreign affairs has fallen sharply. We could not muster 40,000 troops if we had the same disaster as befell New Oreans. We cannot even transport our troops to hot spots around the world such as Afghanistan to pull our weignt in NATO, assist failed states or participate in peace keeping. We have to hitch a ride with the Americans. We are losing our sovereignty over the North. Denmark raises it's flag on a Canadian island and the best we can do is send one of our few naval ships by to make ever increasing claims on sovereignty. We risk losing sovereignty over much of the north.

Our standard of living compared to Americans has fallen. The average Canadian made 90 cents of what the average American made 13 years ago. Today that Canadian makes only 75 cents. The middle class is burdend with taxes and has no higher standard of living than 13 years ago. Our vaunted health care system is in decline; people are dying and in pain but cannot choose to seek private treatment because the governmetn creates a monopoly on healthcare which is increasing in cost but declining in service.

We could use a few more "neo-con' ideas on this side of the border. That liberal thinking has lead to stagnation, decline and a loss of importance in the world for Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly if one only considers GDP per capita as the sole indicator of the quality of one's life then the United States is certainly making top grades. However, if one also factors in silly stuff like health and education as being part of one's quality of life, then the results look quite different with Canada ranking as the 5th best place to live (after Norway, Iceland, Australia, and Luxembourg) and the U.S. ranking 10th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Further complicating the U.S. situation is the dramatic levels of income inequality:
http://www.frbsf.org/econrsrch/wklyltr/wklyltr98/el98-29.html

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_chapter_2.pdf (see Box 2.1)

[Captain Zen]

from
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2005/09/13/sanders.shtml
On the issues of class and poverty, Nicholas Kristof, writing for the New York Times, points out, “poverty rose again last year with 1.1 million more Americans living in poverty in 2004 than a year earlier. After falling sharply under Bill Clinton, the number of poor people has now risen 17 percent under Bush”.

Stating that it is shameful that there are bloated corpses on New Orleans streets, Kristof lamented that “it is even more disgraceful that the infant mortality rate in America’s capital is twice as high as in China’s capital”.

On the race aspect, he cities a UN Development Programme Report which reveals that “an African-American baby in Washington has far less chance of surviving its first year than a baby born in urban parts of the state of Kerala in India”.

These are almost unbelievable statistics.

[hm0504]

Bush: 'I take responsibility' for U.S. failures on Katrina
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

Glad to hear the President understands and admits that there were major failures in FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
Bush: 'I take responsibility' for U.S. failures on Katrina
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

Glad to hear the President understands and admits that there were major failures in FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that a wonderfully refreshing bit of news! That plus the resignation of Brown would suggest that even the folks at the federal level recognize that they were part of the problem, or at least did not respond appropriately.

I heard about Bush's statement on the radio a few minutes ago. I also heard them say that Canadian hospitals would not be able to handle such a disaster because Emergency departments are so overloaded right now. Thanks to the cuts from the neo-conservative brains.

I think it is time to evaluate what happened and find ways to make our systems more effective, on both sides of the border. Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a way to be fiscally responsible AND still be able to provied adequate services to the citizens.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
Bush: 'I take responsibility' for U.S. failures on Katrina
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

Glad to hear the President understands and admits that there were major failures in FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a first! I'm shocked!

[Ken Palmer]

I kind of feel this way too. It's good to see or hear when your leader accepts responsibility when something or things go wrong since he is ultimately in charge. But I am also glad to see things are slowly improving in New Orleans since it obviously won't happen overnight.

Ken Palmer


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
Bush: 'I take responsibility' for U.S. failures on Katrina
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

Glad to hear the President understands and admits that there were major failures in FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a first! I'm shocked! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:

Regional prices will more closely follow a supply and demand trend. Gas and crude oil prices are commodities whose prices are based on people bidding on the right to secure future deliveries. They will bid as much as they feel they have to in order to satisfy customer demand.

When demand is high and supplies are short, the price can escalate as traders bid ever increasing amounts of money. If the price gets too high, people reduce their demand for the gas and the price declines. We are seeing this in action and there is no need to do anything about it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If only there was a real supply and demand dynamic - but there isn't. We've repeatedly seen supplies artificially restricted in the energy sector (the most egregious example being in the California electricity crisis several summers ago - we now have tapes of Enron executives laughing while conspiring to create artificial shortages). The fact that the price of gasoline has doubled over the past 9 months, while the cost of production has only increased 74 cents proves that there is not a competitive free market - otherwise competitors would bid the price downward. In a free market my gouger's index (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3400016152/m/7200050763/r/1890049963#1890049963) would closely match the selling price of gasoline.

-Mark

[hm0504]

What I heard was that Enron was, illegally, moving energy created in California to Nevada (thus causing an "energy crisis") and then selling that energy back to California at inflated prices. Quite a scam!

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
What I heard was that Enron was, illegally, moving energy created in California to Nevada (thus causing an "energy crisis") and then selling that energy back to California at inflated prices. Quite a scam! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did far more than that, they SHUT DOWN power plants in order to create crisis. Enron Traders Caught On Tape (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/eveningnews/main620626.shtml)

-Mark

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
What I heard was that Enron was, illegally, moving energy created in California to Nevada (thus causing an "energy crisis") and then selling that energy back to California at inflated prices. Quite a scam! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did far more than that, they SHUT DOWN power plants in order to create crisis. Enron Traders Caught On Tape (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3400016152/m/7200050763/r/1890049963#1890049963)

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the correct link to "Enron Traders Caught on Tape":
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/eveningnews/main620626.shtml

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:

I think this is the correct link to "Enron Traders Caught on Tape":
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/eveningnews/main620626.shtml </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right you are! Thanks for the catch - my 'copy' didn't catch and the previous url in my clipboard was pasted by mistake. All fixed now - Thanks!

[Naturist Mark]

More on the outrageous behavior of the Gretna, LA (http://tinyurl.com/8rdnv) police chief. Why isn't he in chains?

I don't approve of the way this website characterizes the entire city of Gretna - but the authorites who committed these abominable crimes need to be brought to justice quickly.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>
http://www.blogbasis.com/GretnaSucks/Images/lawson.jpg
<LI> Gretna Police Chief Arthur S. Lawson, Jr.

He is directly responsible for the deaths of multiple people by refusing to offer aid to the victims of hurricane Katrina.

During the aftermath of hurricane Katrina people were told to evacuate New Orleans by crossing the bridge that lead from New Orleans to Gretna. The bridge spans the Mississippi river linking New Orleans to the west bank city of Gretna. If you were black or in the company of blacks you were blocked from evacuating New Orleans by the Gretna police.

Gretna Police Chief Arthur S. Lawson, Jr. ordered his officers to kill any black people that tried to cross the bridge that lead into Gretna. His officers shot at blacks or people in the company of blacks that tried to cross the bridge.

A group of around 20, mostly blacks who were fired at when they tried to cross the bridge, camped out at the top of the bridge. Their camp was raided at dusk by Gretna police who held them at gun point, shouted racial slurs and robbed them of their food and water. They hate black people so much that they wanted to add to their suffering pilled on them by hurricane Katrina by taking away their life sustaining food and water. Many died as a result.

The Gretna police blocked the evacuation route for days. Shooting in the air and above the heads of blacks who were trying to get out of New Orleans during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina. These gun shots from the white police officers of Gretna were mistaken by rescue workers in New Orleans as sniper attacks. This lead to the grounding of ambulance helicopters that thought they were being fired at when in reality it was the Gretna police shooting in the air and over the head of black people trying to cross the bridge. Much, if not all, of the reported shooting in New Orleans was actually coming from the Gretna police shooting off their guns and assault riffles at the black victims of hurricane Katrina just trying to get out of the city of New Orleans. [/list]

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:

The price of crude oil, gasoline and other energy products is not set in the same way that regular consumer goods are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>obviously it isn't - it is the result of collusion<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If the normal price would be $2.00 for a gallon of gas, but a buyer is willing to bid $2.50 for each gallon, it will sell for $2.50.

This is the nature of goods whose value is set by bidding and not by some initial price established by the supplier/producer. They will attempt to get people to bid as much as possible. When supplies get short, regardless of the reason, bidders will run the price up based on their willingness to pay. It has nothing to do with the fact that the production price may have remained constant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are suggesting that normal consumer demand doesn't have a role because the end consumers (us) aren't the real customers - commodity traders are. Sorry, that doesn't mean that collusion and manipulation doesn't fix the prices - if there were real competition in the trading system there would be a downward pressure on prices due to the ability of traders to switch to alternate providers. That isn't happening.

-Mark

[nudeM]

I just heard on the news tonight that back in 1965, President Johnson's administration passed a resolution to provide funds to build up some sort of levee in the wetlands, but quickly challenged by the Environmental wackos. This, by way of a law suit, was never done; in turn was one of the many factors why New Orleans was flooded.

Any comments from the left? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Certainly if one only considers GDP per capita as the sole indicator of the quality of one's life then the United States is certainly making top grades. However, if one also factors in silly stuff like health and education as being part of one's quality of life, then the results look quite different with Canada ranking as the 5th best place to live (after Norway, Iceland, Australia, and Luxembourg) and the U.S. ranking 10th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Further complicating the U.S. situation is the dramatic levels of income inequality:
http://www.frbsf.org/econrsrch/wklyltr/wklyltr98/el98-29.html

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_chapter_2.pdf (see Box 2.1) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and even by that standard developed by leftists Canada has been falling..

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
I think anyone who would conceive that people who do not support Bush would be glad if thousands died in New Orleans must be either extremely obnoxious and/or have a sick, sick mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or accurate.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
I just heard on the news tonight that back in 1965, President Johnson's administration passed a resolution to provide funds to build up some sort of levee in the wetlands, but quickly challenged by the Environmental wackos. This, by way of a law suit, was never done; in turn was one of the many factors why New Orleans was flooded.

Any comments from the left? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

they spent 40 years diverting funds into pork projects and failing to protect N.O. And Mary Landrieu herself was involved in this and let's hope the people of Louisiana hold the state and local politicians accountable.

[KirkOntario]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1123495&page=1 (http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1123495&amp;page=1)

"Sept. 13, 3005 — Amid the chaos and confusion that engulfed New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local congressman used National Guard troops to check on his property and rescue his personal belongings — even while New Orleans residents were trying to get rescued from rooftops, ABC News has learned.

On Friday, Sept. 2 — five days after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast — Rep. William Jefferson, D-La., who represents New Orleans and is a senior member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, was allowed through the military blockades set up around the city to reach the Superdome, where thousands of evacuees had been taken. "


And your polticians at work...not rescuing people. Using gov't resources to check on their own ppty. Wonder what party he's from... http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Captain Zen]

http://www.rense.com/general50/owningweather.htm

USAF 2025 - Weather As
A Force Multiplier: Owning
The Weather
From Ross Dowe <ippoz@eisa.net.au>
3-294


A Research Paper Presented To Air Force 2025

By

Col Tamzy J. House
Lt Col James B. Near, Jr.
LTC William B. Shields (USA)
Maj Ronald J. Celentano
Maj David M. Husband
Maj Ann E. Mercer
Maj James E. Pugh

August 1996

[nudeM]

Wow, Zen, still trying to find out which planet you are from. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
I just heard on the news tonight that back in 1965, President Johnson's administration passed a resolution to provide funds to build up some sort of levee in the wetlands, but quickly challenged by the Environmental wackos. This, by way of a law suit, was never done; in turn was one of the many factors why New Orleans was flooded.

Any comments from the left? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Notice the left goes on about the cost the war in Iraq and how the money could have been spent elsewhere but back in Johnson's time they declared the 'war on poverty' that has cost trillions and is never going to be over. But they don't realize how much waste and corruption that fruitless unwinable war cost.

[Bob S.]

According to Reuters UK (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=globalNews&storyID=2005-09-14T024009Z_01_DIT259104_RTRUKOC_0_US-KATRINA.xml), Mable and Salvador Mangano, the owners of a nursing home in St. Bernard Parish have been charged with 34 counts of neglegent homocide. They had an offer to transport their patients out of danger before the hurricane, but declined. They did not try to get any of their patients out of the home, according to the prosecutor.

"If I understand your post, you are either (A) asking us to pray for those that have been devestated or (B) express our written condolences for those that have lost everything."

I am saying that all we are doing is arguing Toph. The other topic about a nice prayer for those who have suffered has received over 2o times fewer views than this one and the same percentage fewer replies than this.

I am saying that it seems easier to say bad things about someone else than good things about those who have truly suffered.

"If it's the later, those words would be meaningless."

And these words are meaningful? How are they helping change the course of the disaster?

Bob S.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
I just heard on the news tonight that back in 1965, President Johnson's administration passed a resolution to provide funds to build up some sort of levee in the wetlands, but quickly challenged by the Environmental wackos. This, by way of a law suit, was never done; in turn was one of the many factors why New Orleans was flooded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congress passed the Flood Control Act of 1965 after Hurrican Betsy flooded New Orleans. It was then that the current Storm Surge levees were built to withstand a Category 3 storm around New Orleans. These are quite distinct and separate from the century old levees on the Mississippi that protect the city from river floods.

The story I heard was that levies were blown up in the bayou downstream from New Orleans in order to lower water water levels after Hurricane Betsy struck in 1965. It was done without consulting the communities downstream- and with little notice- and it was they who objected to rebuilding those bayou levies so that they could again be sacrificed in order to protect the city.

The lawsuits mentioned didn't happen in the 60's, one was filed in 1977 (after the New Orleans levee was constructed) and the other in 1996, they were concerned with poor levee designs which destroyed wetlands rather than preserved them. Wetlands are natural storm surge barriers and huge water banks that absorb flood waters and protect nearby communities - a major factor in the devastation of Katrina is the huge loss of wetlands in Gulf coastal areas due to development - especially in the area surrounding New Orleans. The Army Corps of Engineers only hired a single biologist to study the environmental impact of the proposed Lake Pontchartrain Storm Barrier - and he failed to even file a written report. THAT was the failure that stopped that project in its tracks. The project was restarted in the late 90's, but was derailed by funding cuts. A properly designed Lake Pontchartrain Barrier might have saved New Orleans, yet another might have been.

Water May Linger for Months (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-levees1sep01,0,7854368.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines)

A Barrier That Could Have Been (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-surge9sep09,1,7901524.story?coll=la-headlines-nation)

-Mark

[Sauna]

Could anybody help me to understand what means when a president promises to take full responsibility of this chaos.

[HereticChick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
I know that I will get a lot of flack for asking this question. But, the question begs to be asked...so here I go:

Everybody is calling for prayer to help the devestated people from this national tragedy. I am sure that millions of people were praying that the storm would change course or fizzle out or not cause such widespread destruction. But it did. Despite all of the prayers mother nature caused all of this death and destruction. If millons of people praying obviouly have no effect, why pray? At what point does one conider that there might not be a diety who is in control of the universe-including the weather? At what point do you need to consider that it is only OUR actions (and not our prayers) that will save the future for these poor people? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prayer obviously isn't going to help these people. PEOPLE will help People. And I don't believe any imaginary sky fairy is going to swoop in and rescue New Orleans. There is no god, only good people who help those who need it.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:
Prayer obviously isn't going to help these people. PEOPLE will help People. And I don't believe any imaginary sky fairy is going to swoop in and rescue New Orleans. There is no god, only good people who help those who need it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"sky fairy". What an offensive thing to say to those who believe in God and the power of prayer. I don't believe in God either but I don't presume to KNOW there is no God. And say, speaking of 'sky fairies' weren't you the person who was so eager to demonstrate open mindedness about attending pagan handfast ceremonies in another thread? Why go if you have such views?

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:

Prayer obviously isn't going to help these people. PEOPLE will help People. And I don't believe any imaginary sky fairy is going to swoop in and rescue New Orleans. There is no god, only good people who help those who need it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand by you about a sky fairy, bearded old man figure sitting on a cloud, I change station when I hear that stupid song: "Someone is watching you from above".
If you have not found "god" inside your own self, if you do not know that you are a reperentative of that what others call "god", you have lost the case. There is nothing outside of you that controls anything. It is from inside of every person the action must come, there is no god outside of anyone, if not in your heart, where can it be?
Do not forget, "believing" has nothing to do with "knowing"

Empty Your Cup



Osho,
The Japanese master Nan-in gave audience to a professor of philosophy. Serving tea, Nan-in filled his visitor's cup, and kept pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he could restrain himself no longer: "Stop! The cup is over full, no more will go in." Nan-in said: "Like this cup, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:


"I am saying that all we are doing is arguing Toph. The other topic about a nice prayer for those who have suffered has received over 2o times fewer views than this one and the same percentage fewer replies than this.

I am saying that it seems easier to say bad things about someone else than good things about those who have truly suffered.

"If it's the later, those words would be meaningless."

And these words are meaningful? How are they helping change the course of the disaster?

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will the words of discussion and criticism change the course of a storm or hurricane? Of course not. They won't change the forces of nature any more then all of the prayers offered to keep the hurricane from landing did by those in it's path.

However, by discussing what went wrong with the response to the hurricane, lessons can be learned so that future disasters will have better responses and the current situation can be made better.

The more the public discusses issues the more likely there will be change. Example: Immediately following Katrina, Bush made a speech that indicated his full support for his choice of a FEMA director, the man he nicknamed "Brownie."

If it wasn't for all of the discussion by the public, and the media Brown would still be fumbling. Since the discussions led to Bush's polls plummenting to new depths he was forced to replace Brown with a more qualified individual.

Discussion and politcal discourse brought about that change. Therefore, those words (contrary to your statement) did bring about change. Prayer on the other hand, may make you feel better about yourself but it doesn't bring about change.

[missouriboy]

"...by taking away their life sustaining food and water. Many died as a result."

What a crock! Remember people who do hunger strikes? It takes weeks for death to occur. There hasn't been enough time yet today for anyone to starve to death as a result of that (alleged) bridge incident, yet the article implies it happened immediately. BAH!

That whole article is suspect, what with all its misspellings and unlikely BS. Is there any other corroboration?

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudeM:
Wow, Zen, still trying to find out which planet you are from. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Originally conceived and born in this body on planet Earth, I do contain starseed genes, inherited from my genetically modified forefathers. As you surely know, the human race is partly a through aliens in the past genetically modified ape, and partly a naturally Darwenian evolved ape. Those without the alien modification are the workers, the semi slaves, the yea sayers, the church goers, the followers. The GM apes are the free entities, those who lead the sheep (to the slaughter as well as to the pastures, the priests, the presidents, the directors and managers.
Although my theory that the hurricane was created is ridiculed, here is another link to make you think again http://www.freepressinternational.com/wc.html

as if he knows, Bush spoke on september 2 just before he went on his first trip to the disaster area:
``It's as if the entire Gulf Coast were obliterated by the worst kind of weapon you can imagine,'' the president said.
see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5251386,00.html

and this must be a fairy tale too
Nissan Uses Device to Stop Hail
http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=1628848

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Certainly if one only considers GDP per capita as the sole indicator of the quality of one's life then the United States is certainly making top grades. However, if one also factors in silly stuff like health and education as being part of one's quality of life, then the results look quite different with Canada ranking as the 5th best place to live (after Norway, Iceland, Australia, and Luxembourg) and the U.S. ranking 10th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Further complicating the U.S. situation is the dramatic levels of income inequality:
http://www.frbsf.org/econrsrch/wklyltr/wklyltr98/el98-29.html

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_chapter_2.pdf (see Box 2.1) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and even by that standard developed by leftists Canada has been falling.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based on the Human Development Index, it would appear that countries that provide
a) a strong social safety net AND
b) encourage responsible free enterprise
have the populations with the best quality of life.

Do I suppose correctly that the neo-conservative quality of life index is based solely on the mean GDP.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by missouriboy:
"...by taking away their life sustaining food and water. Many died as a result."

What a crock! Remember people who do hunger strikes? It takes weeks for death to occur. There hasn't been enough time yet today for anyone to starve to death as a result of that (alleged) bridge incident, yet the article implies it happened immediately. BAH!

That whole article is suspect, what with all its misspellings and unlikely BS. Is there any other corroboration? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adults, under reasonably good conditions, can survive without food for weeks and without water for a few days:
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0...DEF-A838809EC588F2D7 (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000AEAC0-93EC-1DEF-A838809EC588F2D7)

The conditions in New Orleans were NOT ideal, they were hot with little shade and the water was so toxic, it was not even safe to let your skin touch it, never mind drinking it. Also, of course, there were large numbers of children who can die within hours if, in such conditions, are not given water. I have little doubt children and adults (particularly seniors) died from thirst due to the intense heat, minimal shade, police blockades and the FEMA's seemingly incessant delays.

[jon71]

I for one believe in prayer. In my heart of hearts I know a living GOD who is very real. "Sky fairy" is not a respectful way to describe the author of the universe. CHRIST is in my heart and as real as my right arm. Moreso because my right arm could be removed, JESUS cannot be.
Incidentally this may be the first time Kirk and I are in complete agreement. I have and will continue to pray for the people affected by this disaster.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
Notice the left goes on about the cost the war in Iraq and how the money could have been spent elsewhere but back in Johnson's time they declared the 'war on poverty' that has cost trillions and is never going to be over. But they don't realize how much waste and corruption that fruitless unwinable war cost. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what do you in your wisdom suggest be done with the poor? Make them poorer, the typical result of neo-con policies? Burn them or otherwise dispose of them? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Oh, I guess floods and hurricanes take care of a bunch eh.

I suspect you live in some kind of fantasy world where you do not have to interact with poor people. If you had heard real stories from real people I am sure you would have a slightly different story.

[hm0504]

Actually, the lowest U.S. poverty rate since 1965 occurred in 1973 shortly after Johnson's War on Poverty years.

As neo-conservatives regard a person's value as basically the sum value of their monetary assets. the poor, by definition, are not worth much so what is the point of fretting about them, or worse, spending money on them.

[Captain Zen]

The American Capitalist System is a disgrace to humanity. In Social Democratic Europe we have no, I repeat NO beggars like in the US. Those "clochards" who sleep under bridges in France, choose to do so. Every body who has no work or income will get sufficient help from the Government for a decent living standard. Yes taxes are high, but at least you know that your money goes to help those who need it. And you do see nowhere the humiliating poverty as in many partsd of the US.

[HereticChick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by missouriboy:
"...by taking away their life sustaining food and water. Many died as a result."

What a crock! Remember people who do hunger strikes? It takes weeks for death to occur. There hasn't been enough time yet today for anyone to starve to death as a result of that (alleged) bridge incident, yet the article implies it happened immediately. BAH!

That whole article is suspect, what with all its misspellings and unlikely BS. Is there any other corroboration? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry dude, elderly people, infants and small children all can die within a few days if left without water. Considering the heat and humidity, it's highly likely that many people died of dehydration.

[HereticChick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
I for one believe in prayer. In my heart of hearts I know a living GOD who is very real. "Sky fairy" is not a respectful way to describe the author of the universe. CHRIST is in my heart and as real as my right arm. Moreso because my right arm could be removed, JESUS cannot be.
Incidentally this may be the first time Kirk and I are in complete agreement. I have and will continue to pray for the people affected by this disaster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pray all you want Jon, but it's not going to help. You'd help a lot more by opening your wallet instead of your heart.

And as for being respectful, there's no need for me to respectful of something I don't believe in.

[HereticChick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:
Prayer obviously isn't going to help these people. PEOPLE will help People. And I don't believe any imaginary sky fairy is going to swoop in and rescue New Orleans. There is no god, only good people who help those who need it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"sky fairy". What an offensive thing to say to those who believe in God and the power of prayer. I don't believe in God either but I don't presume to KNOW there is no God. And say, speaking of 'sky fairies' weren't you the person who was so eager to demonstrate open mindedness about attending pagan handfast ceremonies in another thread? Why go if you have such views? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they find that offensive, then that's their problem. It's MY opinion, one that I'm entitled to, just as they are entitled to their opinion. And yes I've attended pagan ceremonies, I find them fascinating. They appeal to the feminist side of me because their religion isn't based in some paternalistic, mysogynistic dogma. I've gone to handfasting ceremonies because they involved people I love. Would you NOT go to someone's Catholic wedding just because you didn't believe in god?

"We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake."..........Catherine Fahringer

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
Actually, the lowest U.S. poverty rate since 1965 occurred in 1973 shortly after Johnson's War on Poverty years.

As neo-conservatives regard a person's value as basically the sum value of their monetary assets. the poor, by definition, are not worth much so what is the point of fretting about them, or worse, spending money on them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and then they re-definined poverty. Poverty is an industry like any other. Run out of poor people and the people who gain from 'services' to the poor, who have 'clients' who are poor are out of work. They need dependant people, they need a crisis and the more on welfare the better for them.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:If And yes I've attended pagan ceremonies, I find them fascinating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fascinating unless they involve something serious or involve some sort of obligation. Then that's a problem.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:And as for being respectful, there's no need for me to respectful of something I don't believe in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can disrespect jon's religion but one would hope out of respect for him you wouldn't refer to his Saviour as a 'sky fairy.' That's terrible insulting.

Jon and I may disagree on politics but I believe Jon to be a rather nice guy who worships God, works hard for a living, and is a wonderful father to his daughter.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:I suspect you live in some kind of fantasy world where you do not have to interact with poor people. If you had heard real stories from real people I am sure you would have a slightly different story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no I've interacted with plenty of poor people. I know them intimately. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):

If it wasn't for all of the discussion by the public, and the media Brown would still be fumbling. Since the discussions led to Bush's polls plummenting to new depths he was forced to replace Brown with a more qualified individual.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Bush's poll numbers are not really bad at all. American's don't blame Bush personally and don't have that bad an opinion of FEMA. This is pure media.

http://www.anklebitingpundits.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2303 (http://www.anklebitingpundits.com/index.php?name=News&amp;file=article&amp;sid=2303)

[Captain Zen]

Cool girl, I am with you all the way. I am a free man.
A free wo/man belongs to him/herself and nobody else. A free wo/man is simply an energy with no name, no form, no race, no nation. The days of nations and races are past, the days of the individual are coming. In a better world there will be no Germans, no Americans, no Indians, no Hindus, no Christians, no Jews ... there will be pure individuals, perfectly free, living their life in their own way, not disturbing anybody's life and not allowing anybody to disturb their lives.
said my friend OshO

And I want to add some ideas I share about so called established organised religions.

Said my friend OSHO:
No natural instinct spoils you. But repress it, then it is perverted, and slowly slowly you are spoiled by the perversion. You will be surprised -- there are Catholic monasteries where women have not entered for one thousand years. What to say about a woman, a six-month-old baby girl is not allowed to enter with her father or brother into the monastery. A six-month-old baby! Inside the monastery what do you think -- monks are living or monsters are living, who are afraid of a six-month-old girl? What kind of people are living inside? So sexually perverted.... All sexual perversion has come through your religions. Ninety percent of mental diseases have come through your religions, because of sexual perversion. You ask me what my attitude is about these messiahs, apostles, tirthankaras, avataras, paigambaras. What to say to you? I say: simply disgusting, nauseating. They have done so much harm to humanity that when humanity becomes aware, they are going to destroy all these synagogues and temples and mosques and gurudwaras and churches. These people are your real enemies, but hidden behind a facade, a mask .....

...... When repression happens, then side by side, obsession also happens.
So priests go on repressing; and there are anti-priests, Flint, Hefners and others -- they go on creating more and more pornography.
So on one side there are priests who go on repressing, and then there are others, anti-priests, who go on making sexuality more and more glamorous.
They both exist together -- aspects of the same coin.
When churches disappear, only then Playboy magazines will disappear, not before it.
They are partners in the business.
They look enemies, but don't be deceived by that.
They talk against each other, but that's how things work .....

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:

You can disrespect jon's religion but one would hope out of respect for him you wouldn't refer to his Saviour as a 'sky fairy.' That's terrible insulting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it's OK to be direspectful and insulting to Democrats or Liberals, right?

-Mark (a strong believer in the Sky Faerie (http://religiousleft.bmgbiz.net/))

[Captain Zen]

Originally posted by KirkOntario:
Yes, and then they re-definined poverty. Poverty is an industry like any other. Run out of poor people and the people who gain from 'services' to the poor, who have 'clients' who are poor are out of work. They need dependant people, they need a crisis and the more on welfare the better for them.

You are disgusting to accept making the poor an industry without strongly condemning it.
I don't know what made you so, but I would like to see you shipwrecked on the coast of say Bangla Desh, just to see how you would feel amongst the poorest, left behind simple people, who breath the same air as you, when you have to drink the same water as them, eat the same food, who stand with their feet on the same ground. How long will you be able to degrade them as just cogs in your Industrial machinations?

[Captain Zen]

Oh boy, how I love that Sky Faerie of Mark, I have become a believer! The best!

[HereticChick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HereticChick:If And yes I've attended pagan ceremonies, I find them fascinating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fascinating unless they involve something serious or involve some sort of obligation. Then that's a problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your insinuations about paganism belong in another thread, and I'm sure on another board totally.

[KirkOntario]

I just love this Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu

Tried to blame lack of evacuation on Repubicans not supporting mass transit. Then she gave us the 'soft bigotry of low expectations'



http://www.scheadlines.com/article.asp?colid=2877

Sen. Landrieu:"I am not going to level criticism at local and state officials. Mayor Nagin and most mayors in this country have a hard time getting their people to work on a sunny day, less alone getting them out of the city in front of a hurricane, and it's because this administration and administrations before them do not understand the difficulties that mayors...face. In other words, this administration does not believe in mass transit."