Sex and nudity

[Eric6420]

While most people understand that a nudist resort is not a sexual playground, I think that the anti-sex attitude of many nudists is not helping the promotion of nudism.

Let me give you an example, a lot of the freedom that Europe enjoy come from rock music. Now in many places in Europe, you have gay marriage and plenty of nudist beaches.

It is not a surprise that religious fundamentalists are against rock music, they are just against freedom, and when people are free they do not let others to control their lives.

To be against sexual display whataver in magazines or movies is also to be against freedom. And thoses who are opposed to sexual display are also against nudity because for them, it is the same thing.

If you look at Cap d'Agde, the biggest naturist center of the world, it is also a place that is very open about sex. There are a lot of very sexual people and things in Cap d'Agde. You have a liberal and freedom attitude.

Some of the nudists campings in Quebec do not accept male singles or male gay couples, and they have rules that you can't even put oil on the back of your partner.

A lot a naturists are asking themselves why there is so few young people in naturism.

Here is my explanation. Young people are very open about sex, more than 80% of them have watched porn videos on the internet or on dvds, they had their first sexual experience at 15 years old, and at age 20, they often had more than 10 sexual parters.

So the young people are not afraid of sex. They enjoy it much and they are very open about it.

So when the young people go on a naturist site and they hear the mantra "this is not about sex, this is not about sex..." they just think that theses people are weardos. If they go to see the rules and they see things like "two naked body cannot touch on the campground", they just think that there is no fun to have there.

[simonsebs]

Honestly, I think it would do more harm than good.

Right now we're trying to gain mainstream acceptance and fight against all the stigmas and stereotypes. The main one being that all it is is sex and that nudist campgrounds and beaches are just huge orgies.

I think nudists are more open about sex than you think. We just understand, that like anything else, there's a certain time and place for it.

[TheNorm]

Sex and nudity both suffer from the same ailment...they've been sensationalized by the media. Personally, I believe that both are healthy and natural, but I have some very strong cultural biases againt sexual behavior in public. (Not saying it's wrong, merely stating the results of my up-bringing.)

The line gets very fuzzy when couples are "busted" for outdoor sex. Typically, the couples are NOT nudists, they just happen to get caught naked. However, law-enforcement's reaction will inevitably throw in "nudity" as one of the offenses. For this reason alone, I think it's a good idea to keep the line between nudity and sex clearly drawn...at least for now.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
So when the young people go on a naturist site and they hear the mantra "this is not about sex, this is not about sex..." they just think that theses people are weardos. If they go to see the rules and they see things like "two naked body cannot touch on the campground", they just think that there is no fun to have there.
My opinion is that it should be no more restrictive than what you would find at a major resort hotel where people are wearing really skimpy swimwear. I am talking strictly about the major hotel chains that have resort hotels with large pools and that are often located next to the ocean.

To make it more restrictive will just make young adults want to avoid the hassle and head to the nude beach.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
While most people understand that a nudist resort is not a sexual playground, I think that the anti-sex attitude of many nudists is not helping the promotion of nudism.
{snip}
So when the young people go on a naturist site and they hear the mantra "this is not about sex, this is not about sex..." they just think that theses people are weardos. If they go to see the rules and they see things like "two naked body cannot touch on the campground", they just think that there is no fun to have there.

I agree with you entirely Eric.

There is a psychological need for people who have taken a big step outside the "standard" cultural norms to wrap the whole rest of the culture around themselves even closer than they otherwise would. Having taken the big step to be naked, they are "exposed" psychologically as well as physically. Many of the older nudists grab and hold tight to the anti-sex cultural norms because of their psychological nudity. Besides the anti-sex Puritanism we also see continual assertions that nudists are "just like everyone else" in jobs, houses, families, etc. They wrap the towel of conformity around themselves tighter to cover the "naked" psyche.

Younger people have a different culture. They don’t have the same cultural norms about sex, or gays, or music, or a lot of things. They don’t understand the psychological needs of old fogies to be so asexual in public. Young people just think its weird, and they are right. It is a weird psychological reaction to being out beyond the cultural norms of my generation, being naked.

I read recently that the average age for young Americans to start doing sex is 14 years and some months. That means that HALF of young people are doing sex before that age. Before age 20 virtually all have watched sex on film/CD/Internet or in person or both. In my opinion human bodies are beautiful and two human bodies giving and receiving physical pleasure is very beautiful. But it violates the cultural norms of an older generation who keep those norm towels wrapped tightly around themselves.

We are seeing something of the beginning of a trend for a few nudist resorts to become open to sexuality on their grounds. The conservative nudists immediately call them “Not Nudists!” They become shunned, condemned, criticized, and kicked out of more conservative older “nudist“ organizations like AANR. But the rebel resorts seem to be getting far more than their share of younger nudists who don’t have the same sexual hang-ups as their parents.

My ex-wife found that one AANR club she belonged to had a “secret” sub-club which was openly both naked and sexual. The officers of the club didn’t know of the sub-club operating within their umbrella. The official policy is still that which you cite, no bodies touching in naked space.

It is always said by the older nudists that they are trying to be a “family” organization. But as you point out, Eric, it is often the younger generation, the teenagers, who are wanting to be more sexual and open about their bodies than the old fogey adults.

The usual Puritan nudists will undoubtedly disagree with you and me, Eric, but don’t let them get to you.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
We are seeing something of the beginning of a trend for a few nudist resorts to become open to sexuality on their grounds. The conservative nudists immediately call them “Not Nudists!” They become shunned, condemned, criticized, and kicked out of more conservative older “nudist“ organizations like AANR. But the rebel resorts seem to be getting far more than their share of younger nudists who don’t have the same sexual hang-ups as their parents.

Some of the most progressive resorts/clubs have been let back into the fold by AANR because of the large number of members. Doesn't make any sense to take too hard of a stance if it cuts out so much in funds that it causes major problems meeting operating expenses.

AANR can still work to moderate what is allowed, but they won't be able to do anything if they don't collect enough membership dues to remain operating.

[Rabid_Clam]

Not to bring religion into this but it is written there is a time and place for everything and that being so, and I do beleive that is very true, those who respect the correct time and correct place for sex and the other places for simple nudity all will be hunky dory.

That is not part of the 'supposed to' rule made up by a person or a small gathering but is by nations of people over several millenium.

One should be nude to have sex, but one does not have to have sex to be nude. And if the two are not mixed in appropriately we will all be so much better off in the nudist world.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobx23456:
We are seeing something of the beginning of a trend for a few nudist resorts to become open to sexuality on their grounds. The conservative nudists immediately call them “Not Nudists!” They become shunned, condemned, criticized, and kicked out of more conservative older “nudist“ organizations like AANR. But the rebel resorts seem to be getting far more than their share of younger nudists who don’t have the same sexual hang-ups as their parents.

Some of the most progressive resorts/clubs have been let back into the fold by AANR because of the large number of members. Doesn't make any sense to take too hard of a stance if it cuts out so much in funds that it causes major problems meeting operating expenses.

AANR can still work to moderate what is allowed, but they won't be able to do anything if they don't collect enough membership dues to remain operating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, the USA is still quite conservative, and on the other hand if you are a young progressive, you do not necessarly like to pay for the rigt to swimm and sun in the nude, a thing that you should have the right to do in your own backyard, particularly if your backyard is in a discret place.

I think that innovation will be important if naturists centers want to have a future. For example, in a nudist resort I visit in the Quebec City area, you can pay the time you go there by the hour. That's interesting, because if you live in the area and all you want is a little sun and swimm, then you can pass a few hours and it will cost you less than if you pay the price for the day.

In gay campings, many are clothing optional, others have a naturist section, some are doing some activities like naked dances or naked runnung races...

Eventually, the campgrounds will have to be innovative in order to survive. They won't be able to live only for AANR nudists unless they really want to be old clubs, some will have to be innovative.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Not to bring religion into this but it is written there is a time and place for everything and that being so, and I do beleive that is very true, those who respect the correct time and correct place for sex and the other places for simple nudity all will be hunky dory.

That is not part of the 'supposed to' rule made up by a person or a small gathering but is by nations of people over several millenium.

One should be nude to have sex, but one does not have to have sex to be nude. And if the two are not mixed in appropriately we will all be so much better off in the nudist world.


Basically, the people who have a religious monotheism (Jew, Christian, Islamic)view on sex, have the tendency to be both against public sex and public nudity.

And when you talks about "several millenium", only the jewish faith is older than 2 millenium, and that represent far less than 1% of the global population.

Christianity was very slow to spread in Europe. A thousand year ago, more than half of Europe was still pagan... and even when Europe was mostly christian, it did not become prude until the 19th century even though it became homophobic and religious fanatic well before that time.

Basically thoses 3 religions are quite against both sex and nudity, and you can see them at work in Irak, Iran and Palestine where people murder each other quite a bit.

I think that more openess with sex and nudity is what we need among other things. The body shame, the homophobia, the hypocrisy, the manipulation and the irrationality that bring thoses three religions is nothing to be proud of.

I think also that freedom is very important. If you want to recognise a country or a nation that is not free, just look at the attitudes towards sex, gays and nudists.

A country that is not free will be against sex, against gays and against public nudity. In a country that tends to be free, you will have gay marriage, nude beaches and people will generally be open about sex. There is a very strong connection between sex, nudity, homosexuality and freedom.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
Basically, the people who have a religious monotheism (Jew, Christian, Islamic)view on sex, have the tendency to be both against public sex and public nudity.

Tight "moral" control is inherrent in monotheism. It's not coincidental that the big monotheist religions share opposition to bodily pleasures.

And when you talks about "several millenium", only the jewish faith is older than 2 millenium, and that represent far less than 1% of the global population.

Well, only the Jewish faith is older than 2 millenia if you leave out Buddhaism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and numerous other lesser faiths totalling about 2/3 of the human race.

It might also be noted that some Orthadox Jews don't believe that you should be naked even during sex, suggsting a hole in a sheet. The anti-nudity rules aren't easy to break in some monotheistic faiths.

A country that is not free will be against sex, against gays and against public nudity. In a country that tends to be free, you will have gay marriage, nude beaches and people will generally be open about sex. There is a very strong connection between sex, nudity, homosexuality and freedom.


I'm not convinced that homosexuality belongs in the same topic as religious or moral opposition to nudity. The mating of male and female is natural biological beauty, the creation of life. Quite a different thing entirely.

Blessings
Bob

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
Basically, the people who have a religious monotheism (Jew, Christian, Islamic)view on sex, have the tendency to be both against public sex and public nudity.

Tight "moral" control is inherrent in monotheism. It's not coincidental that the big monotheist religions share opposition to bodily pleasures.

And when you talks about "several millenium", only the jewish faith is older than 2 millenium, and that represent far less than 1% of the global population.

Well, only the Jewish faith is older than 2 millenia if you leave out Buddhaism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and numerous other lesser faiths totalling about 2/3 of the human race.

What I mean is that the other traditions are mosltly not prude, contrary to the three monotheisms.


It might also be noted that some Orthadox Jews don't believe that you should be naked even during sex, suggsting a hole in a sheet. The anti-nudity rules aren't easy to break in some monotheistic faiths.

A country that is not free will be against sex, against gays and against public nudity. In a country that tends to be free, you will have gay marriage, nude beaches and people will generally be open about sex. There is a very strong connection between sex, nudity, homosexuality and freedom.


I'm not convinced that homosexuality belongs in the same topic as religious or moral opposition to nudity. The mating of male and female is natural biological beauty, the creation of life. Quite a different thing entirely.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it is, because homosexuality exists naturally in both humans and many animals.

Basically, you do not choose to be gay, you are just born that way, the same thing for heterosexuality.

But the thing is a bit complicated, because some men say they are bisexual, some heterosexual men can sleep with other men for differents reasons, some gay men have slept with women, and son on.

But basically, a gay man can only sexualy love another man (or men) like a heterosexual man can only sexualily love a woman (or women).

That's why that all totalitarian regimes were very anti-gay. It is easy to bring to fanatism a portion of the people when they cannot be themselves, because then, life means very little to them.

Not to mention, about "the creation of life" that we are now six billions persons on this planet, more than one billion is in total misery, and the ecology system is about to callapse.

Maybe we would not be in that nightmare if religions did not push for procreation at all cost and forcing heterosexuality and invisibility to homosexuals.

[David77]

Eric,
I wonder how far you would foster sex at a nudist resort. Copulation on the club house floor or pool table? Very few persons, mainly extreme exhibitionists want to perform that way, but as is now the case, nudists happily go to their resort room or tent and have sex. Naturally, there is a lot of sex at nudist resorts in their tent or resort room. There is probably more sex at resorts than back home at their home residence, as they are more worry free from daily chores and having a good time throughout the day.

I see nothing wrong with light kissing, hold hands, touching each others body but not heavy "petting' or kissing creating a great scene. If this causes a momentary erection, so what - Isaac Newton said "What goes up must come down). I believe that homosexual couples should have these same privleges as hetrosexual couples. I think that homosexual couples would want to wait to get to their room or tent for private deep love making, just as the hetrosexual couples would, creating no public problem, and thereby being able to concentrate on their love making without distraction from the public.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by David77:
Eric,
I wonder how far you would foster sex at a nudist resort. Copulation on the club house floor or pool table? Very few persons, mainly extreme exhibitionists want to perform that way, but as is now the case, nudists happily go to their resort room or tent and have sex. Naturally, there is a lot of sex at nudist resorts in their tent or resort room. There is probably more sex at resorts than back home at their home residence, as they are more worry free from daily chores and having a good time throughout the day.

I see nothing wrong with light kissing, hold hands, touching each others body but not heavy "petting' or kissing creating a great scene. If this causes a momentary erection, so what - Isaac Newton said "What goes up must come down). I believe that homosexual couples should have these same privleges as hetrosexual couples. I think that homosexual couples would want to wait to get to their room or tent for private deep love making, just as the hetrosexual couples would, creating no public problem, and thereby being able to concentrate on their love making without distraction from the public.

Essentially, I agree with you David. I am a liberal, but I do respect the laws and customs of society.

What I say is more philosophical than to apply directly in a club.

What I say is that sex and nudity have their place in society, (just think of the Moulin Rouge) but of course, we do not need to masturbate on the main boulvard in Paris.

What you say makes perfect sense.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by David77:
I see nothing wrong with light kissing, hold hands, touching each others body but not heavy "petting' or kissing creating a great scene.
This is my basic thought. If it would be OK if you were at a Hilton resort pool, there is no reason for it to not be OK at a nudist resort.

[Eric6420]

But "heavy kissing" is far more acceptable in european and latin cultures than in the USA.

But of course, what is acceptable for one person may not be acceptable for another. And the appreciation of what is heavy is also very relative.

In Cap d'Agde, you probably can to give a nude massage on the beach to your partner and nobody would rise an eyebrow, but you could not do the same thing in public in the USA unless you are in a sex club.

[usmc1]

Hey, wait a minute. Maybe Eric is on to something here. Maybe, just maybe if weren't for the "anti-sex attitude" of nudists, they would have procreated more and there would be a nudist majority. THINK ABOUT IT! (Oh damn I've always wanted to do that) THINK ABOUT IT!

And also major league baseball and hockey games. Sure they're not sexual playgrounds but if people would go ahead and have sex at the games, (adds a whole new meaning to 7th inning stretch) attendance would go up. And there'd be more young people coming (yep) to the games.

Eric's on to something here, church attendance is down and young people aren't coming (yep-can't help it) on Sundays. Just have a little sex in the nave between hymns and sermon.

THINK ABOUT IT!

[Rabid_Clam]

These are all great points and I for sure accept and abide by these 'supposed to' rules of society. As in any rule case, things can be bent but there is also a time and place for that also. One such is kissing the bride by the new groom at a wedding. That is one acceptable 'bend' of the rules, and there may be some others out there but they are not abundant and for a good reason.

But then we hit a rock when we come to same sex ralationships. In my opinion such male is totally their own business but here we have society that somewhat frowns on a man kissing another man. Maybe that should be kept to their own private space to accomodate the masses.

In Viet Nam men holding hands is totally acceptable, is not sexual by any means but in this society it is viewed in a different tense.

Other than that all seems to be in good order here.

[Naturist Mark]

I've often thought a more open attitude about sex would liven up those long rounds of golf ...

[David77]

In Viet Nam men holding hands is totally acceptable, is not sexual by any means but in this society it is viewed in a different tense.
Soviet soldiers, when not on duty, would hold hands as they walked down city streets.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
In Cap d'Agde, you probably can to give a nude massage on the beach to your partner and nobody would rise an eyebrow, but you could not do the same thing in public in the USA unless you are in a sex club.

Cap d'Agde has an international reputation for offensive public gay sex in the dunes. Before I ever went to Cap d'Agde I was warned of the offensive public gay sex even while relaxing in the western USA. I don't think that Cap d'Agde is a very good example for other places to copy.

Blessings
Bob

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
In Cap d'Agde, you probably can to give a nude massage on the beach to your partner and nobody would rise an eyebrow, but you could not do the same thing in public in the USA unless you are in a sex club.

Cap d'Agde has an international reputation for offensive public gay sex in the dunes. Before I ever went to Cap d'Agde I was warned of the offensive public gay sex even while relaxing in the western USA. I don't think that Cap d'Agde is a very good example for other places to copy.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sex do not offend anyone there! It is rather you who is being offensive here!

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
In Cap d'Agde, you probably can to give a nude massage on the beach to your partner and nobody would rise an eyebrow, but you could not do the same thing in public in the USA unless you are in a sex club.

Cap d'Agde has an international reputation for offensive public gay sex in the dunes. Before I ever went to Cap d'Agde I was warned of the offensive public gay sex even while relaxing in the western USA. I don't think that Cap d'Agde is a very good example for other places to copy.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sex do not offend anyone there! It is rather you who is being offensive here! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, wrong. Gay public sex at Cap d'Agde offends many nudists who visit there for vacations. Many are so offended by the gay public sex that they still describing how offended they were months later after returning home. I heard several such stories in the Western USA before I ever visited Cap d'Agde. Its not a good example that other nudist areas should copy, and in fact should be eradicated from their dunes area.

Blessings
Bob

[Eric6420]

What allows us, as human beings, to psychologically survive life on earth, with all of its pain, drama, and challenges, is a sense of purpose and meaning.

But that sense of purpose and meaning have to be based on reality. I do not think that the morality of the catholic church is really helping.

We are living on a planet where most people live in poverty, where the ecology is in deep trouble, and the catholic church has nothing better to do than to speak against the pleasures of the flesh. What a meaning...

One of the only thing that could really help humanity right now is a strong dose of rationality to solve the problems.

[Eric6420]

Uh, wrong. Gay public sex at Cap d'Agde offends many nudists who visit there for vacations. Many are so offended by the gay public sex that they still describing how offended they were months later after returning home. I heard several such stories in the Western USA before I ever visited Cap d'Agde. Its not a good example that other nudist areas should copy, and in fact should be eradicated from their dunes area.

Americans who are going at Cap d'agde and are offended by the gay sex there are really STUPID!

If you do not want to see gay sex, do not go at Cap d'Agde!


For your information, a lot of Europeans like to have sex outside. Cap d'Agde is not the only place in Europe where such activity is taking place, but it is the most well known for it.

There are hundreds of places where sex is taking place outdoors both hetero and gay in Europe. That is a fact of life that very few complains about.

[Bob S.]

Eric:"That sex do not offend anyone there! It is rather you who is being offensive here!"

Eric, calm down. Public sex can offend others no matter the genders of the participants. Cap D'Agde is a tourist town so tourists are important to its survival. Bobx has mentioned that he and other tourists have been offended by the sex so yes, it does offend some people over there.

As for the legality of the public sex, that is another aspect. If it is allowed, then it is allowed despite the offense it causes other people.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Eric:"While most people understand that a nudist resort is not a sexual playground, I think that the anti-sex attitude of many nudists is not helping the promotion of nudism."

When the rules get out of proportion, then I agree with you. I am against rules that say no contact or kissing but I agree with the parks wanting to take a strong stance against public sexual encounters.

Eric:"Young people are very open about sex, more than 80% of them have watched porn videos on the internet or on dvds, they had their first sexual experience at 15 years old, and at age 20, they often had more than 10 sexual parters."

That means nothing as they probably watched the porn alone or with a few of their close friends behind closed doors and had sex in a private room. The no contact rules will not only put the younger people off, but most of the middle and older aged people as well.

Nudism is not about sex. It is about having fun and doing normal things without clothes. Sex comes in private times when no one else is watching. Even the younger generation knows that.

Bob S.

[Croydon]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
In Cap d'Agde, you probably can to give a nude massage on the beach to your partner and nobody would rise an eyebrow, but you could not do the same thing in public in the USA unless you are in a sex club.

Cap d'Agde has an international reputation for offensive public gay sex in the dunes. Before I ever went to Cap d'Agde I was warned of the offensive public gay sex even while relaxing in the western USA. I don't think that Cap d'Agde is a very good example for other places to copy.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Like EVERYTHING you say, your above comment is baseless. It seems like you form your opinions on what you have heard or read but never actually doing your own investigation.

To bring some knowledge Cap D'Adge is NOT a gay beach, gay resort or gay hang out.

Cap D'Adge is frequented by heterosexuals and it is well known for the sex. It is a hang out for many STRAIGHT couples and STRAIGHT single men. The public sex on beach is the norm and accepted.

I have read plenty about Cap, esp. in N magazine and the conclusion has always been the same...a beach and haven for the swingers and exhibitionist. I have yet to hear anyone mention gays at Cap. In addition, I am friends with a couple I met at Cypress Cove who have been to Cap and they reported the same thing I have heard from many. Gays and gay sex isn't one of them.

I am sure there are gays at Cap and may even have sex on the beach but don't sit there and blame everything on gays. Sex and exhibitionism is the norm at Cap and it is something EVERYONE, mostly heterosexuals, participate in.

[Croydon]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Uh, wrong. Gay public sex at Cap d'Agde offends many nudists who visit there for vacations. Many are so offended by the gay public sex that they still describing how offended they were months later after returning home. I heard several such stories in the Western USA before I ever visited Cap d'Agde. Its not a good example that other nudist areas should copy, and in fact should be eradicated from their dunes area.

Americans who are going at Cap d'agde and are offended by the gay sex there are really STUPID!

If you do not want to see gay sex, do not go at Cap d'Agde!


For your information, a lot of Europeans like to have sex outside. Cap d'Agde is not the only place in Europe where such activity is taking place, but it is the most well known for it.

There are hundreds of places where sex is taking place outdoors both hetero and gay in Europe. That is a fact of life that very few complains about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Calling Americans who are offended by public sex stupid is quite extreme and uncalled for. I am American and gay and I am offended by public sex on beach, gay or straight.

I am a believer in there being a time and place for everything. On a nude beach is not the time nor place. Respect of other people and their space is important.

[Agde]

This discussion thread demonstrates a very simple fact. Nudity basically has very little to do with sexuality. There are all sorts of sexual behaviour that may or may not be considered normal and acceptable, depending on context and proximity, by different individuals, age groups, religious groups, social groups or communities. It's not that nudists are any more or less sexual. It's just that nudity as a state-of-being and sexuality as human behavior can only be sensibly discussed and regulated separately.

It seems obvious that is quite possible for very sexual people to love certain clothes and for nudists to be totally shocked by certain sexual behaviour. In a public context, it is simply unhelpful to double the complexity and confusion by talking about nudity and sexuality in the same breath. In any case, merely being nudist doesn't really make us more knowledgeable about or more qualified to judge sexual behaviour.

So let's continue to focus on promoting naturist values such as interpersonal and gender respect, and leave sexual mores and conventions to be debated as a separate matter of concern within our various communities.

[RichNH]

Wow, As we used to yell in school...

FIGHT! FIGHT!

All this and in less than 12 hours, I think we may have set a record.

I would like to make one correction that was made earlier. Someone commented that the average age of teens first having sex was 15 and therefore half of all teens having sex are below 15. Not so...

Person # / Age of 1st sex
1 / 16
2 / 16
3 / 16
4 / 16
5 / 16
6 / 10
========
6 / 90

90/6 = 15 years average age first sex.
Clearly the majority are over 15 in having first sex. Now I'm not saying that its impossible for half the population to have first sex under 15, but its not mathematically certain that that is what's happening, not for just the average age. You'd have to look at other factors which I know exist but which have long since fled my brain.

ANYWAY.... Now that I've gotten that out of my geek system, ON WITH THE INSULTS AND CONDEMNATIONS!

Rich

[Eric6420]

Calling Americans who are offended by public sex stupid is quite extreme and uncalled for. I am American and gay and I am offended by public sex on beach, gay or straight.

I am a believer in there being a time and place for everything. On a nude beach is not the time nor place. Respect of other people and their space is important.



I was talking about CAP D'AGDE! CAP D'AGDE is a place where sex on the beach is the norm, mostly heterosexual by the way. That Cap d'Agde is basically a sex club should be known by all naturists. That is why it is stupid to go there and to complain about the sex.

[Croydon]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Calling Americans who are offended by public sex stupid is quite extreme and uncalled for. I am American and gay and I am offended by public sex on beach, gay or straight.

I am a believer in there being a time and place for everything. On a nude beach is not the time nor place. Respect of other people and their space is important.



I was talking about CAP D'AGDE! CAP D'AGDE is a place where sex on the beach is the norm, mostly heterosexual by the way. That Cap d'Agde is basically a sex club should be known by all naturists. That is why it is stupid to go there and to complain about the sex. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Eric for clarification. I misunderstood your comment.

You are right, for one to go to Cap and be offended by the open sex is to be naive. Cap is known for that and no one should be surprised or shocked by what they see.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Eric6420:
Americans who are going at Cap d'agde and are offended by the gay sex there are really STUPID!



Well, it's plain to see what your agenda is, Eric.

Americans who vacation in Europe and have gone to Cap d'Agde are not "STUPID." But we do get offended by the gay public sex that is so pervasive there and other places. We get offended by the public gay sex that drives families and children out of our parks at home too. I don't share your agenda, Eric.

Blessings
Bob

[eaglepeakpete]

I first went to The Cap d'Agde when it was just a farmers field, it growth has been enormous, with 100's of apartmnets and a massive campsite.
I believe it now caters for more than 60000 people at once.
Its a mistake to think that nudists abandon all their sexuality when they arrive at a naturist complex, sex is normal, it goes on at the golf club and even among church members.its just that with nudists its more noticable.
At the cap mostly in the evenings, open sex on the beach is normal not just gay sex but all sorts.
The lack of inhibitions among nudists, the romance of a sun drenched holiday and the sexual vibes often make people do things they might not normally do, like have sex openly on the beach.
However it has become such a problem there are now wardens touring the beach to control it.
There are nude night clubs,Discos,restaurants, supermarkets and everything you would find in a 60000 plus holiday resort.
Cap d Adge is know all over the world as a liberal place and people that tend to there know what they might see so generally they are not offended.

At my own complex which is not a swingers place but a normal naturist complex, its not unusual to see an erection, no body minds as long as its not threatening anyone. Our rule is if you get an erection be careful not to get it sunburnt, dont feel guilty or ashamed over it as it a normal function.

[Eric6420]

Thank You Eaglepeakpete to bring us fresh air from Spain.

[Eric6420]

By the way, Cap d'Agde is not the only place where there is public outdoors sex.

Ibiza and Canaries Island are two others places among many others.

So, Americans, before going to Europe, you should know the rules and the customs and DO NOT EXPECT AMERICAN DEMONISATION OF SEX AND BIGOTERY THERE!

[nudebushwalker]

And when you talks about "several millenium", only the jewish faith is older than 2 millenium, and that represent far less than 1% of the global population.

Christianity was very slow to spread in Europe. A thousand year ago, more than half of Europe was still pagan... and even when Europe was mostly christian, it did not become prude until the 19th century even though it became homophobic and religious fanatic well before that time.

Basically thoses 3 religions are quite against both sex and nudity, and you can see them at work in Irak, Iran and Palestine where people murder each other quite a bit.

If the above rubbish is anything to go by, I don't see how anyone can believe half of what Eric is pushing here...

Fact: Jews make up just over 2% of the world population;
Fact: Christianity covers nearly 25% of the population, with around 80% of these being in some part of the Catholic church;
Fact: The Hindu religion is over 7,000 years old, and with nearly 1 billion followers has just over 15%;
Fact: there are over 1 billion Muslims as well, so they probably have over 16% of the World's peoples [- fortunately the more extreme sects and groups are only around 30% of the total, or near 5% of the world -> still a long way to go with their plans to breed up to take over the universe, especially with their history of killing each other off..];
Fact: Buddhists make up near 2% of the population, and their religion is probably growing faster than the Jews, so they will catch up to them eventually;
Fact: Pagan and "animistic"/native (indigenous..) religions have around 2 billion followers, or just over 30% - the biggest single sector when religions are grouped together... And many of these beliefs would be nearly as old as civilisation itself..

If Eric' can't be bothered either checking his facts, or his grammar and spelling, how can anyone take any of this crap that passes as his opinions seriously?

[Eric6420]

You simply do not understood what I mean, nudebushwalker. When I said that only the Jewish faith is older than two millenium, i was talking about monotheism.

About my grammar, well, English is not my fisrt language.

About the facts, anyone can do research, and nothing proves that your numbers are better than mine.

My opinions are sincere, and if you do not like them, it is your problem, not mine.

[walter05]

Eric;

Your statement, "Basically thoses 3 religions are quite against both sex and nudity, and you can see them at work in Irak, Iran and Palestine where people murder each other quite a bit" is incorrect.

The first commandment in the Bible is to be fruitful and multiply. This has always meant to have sex. Judaism has always believed that we are commanded to have sex.

However, I will tell you that the commandment is for sex between a married man and a married woman. The possibility of creating children is one of the expected outcomes. Other sexual experiences are not commanded.

I will also admit that the in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the Bible is very much against homosexual sex. It is referred to with very harsh language. If you want a discussion on Orthodox Jewish views of homosexual sex, I am not opposed but I think that is a different topic from the one you started.

The issues in Palestine as you put are different. You could not even say "Israel". Are you unable to admit that there is a sovereign state called Israel? I wonder why.

Despite Orthodox opposition, there was even a gay rights parade in Jerusalem this year. This is because the Israeli Supreme Court said that the City of Jerusalem had to allow it and protect it. This is because the State of Israel is a free country run according to law, but not religious law.

Bob;

No normative Orthodox Jewish group believes that a married couple should have sex with sheets with holes. In fact, most Orthodox Jews believe that being naked is required to fulfill the commandment.

Eric;

It is clear though that you have two agendas at work here. One is the infusion of more sexuality into the "Nudist" experience and one is the gay rights issue.

Perhaps there should be two threads here. One thread could be used to discuss sexuality at nudist venues. One thread could be used to discuss gay rights. Intertwining them prevents either from being fully discussed.

[Eric6420]

The issues in Palestine as you put are different. You could not even say "Israel". Are you unable to admit that there is a sovereign state called Israel? I wonder why.

Palestine and Israel are two differents contries. I never said that I did not recognised Israel as a nation.

[Eric6420]

However, I will tell you that the commandment is for sex between a married man and a married woman. The possibility of creating children is one of the expected outcomes. Other sexual experiences are not commanded.


We are now over six billions persons, and the ecology is in big trouble because of it. So maybe this is the time to change the rules and becomming more rational.

[EricNY]

Let's stick with facts and have civil discussion here.

I have deleted and edited posts on this thread that were totally uncalled for.

If you can not control what you write, it will be controlled for you by banning you from the site...

....Is that clear enough?

[labrat93562]

I'm all for sex. love it very much but... I don't have sex in front of children and when I take the family to a nude resort I don't want them watching others have sex. Do I hide sex from them? No We are raising our 3 grandkids and have had very frank and open discussions with themabout the sublect. We also teach them according to our religious beliefs wich is our right and responsibility. As they mature they will have to reach thier own conclusions and they will have our love regardless. My point is To open up nudist areas to open sexual behavior would only reinforce that all nudists are some sort of sexual deviants in the minds of the people who are trying to limit our beach and public parks use. Though we'll probably never change thier closed minds, there are many who may be sitting on the fence or indifferent who can be swayed to one side or the other depending on our actions. There are many familys out there who do not want thier children exposed to sex. Every parent has the right to raise thier child with thier set of moral values and it's not for us to judge no matter how we disagree with thier points of view. I will say with the exception of if thier practices at home do harm to the children or others.
To some up my long post; sex is good. Sex in public not good for those with children or helpful in convincing people (especially public officals) that simple nudity is harmless.
Anyone who calls someone bigoted and other fowl names and then bashes thier nationality isn't worth my time to argue with. The rest of you have a great nude day.

[walter05]

Eric;

I am glad you don't have an issue with the existence of the State of Israel.

According to Orthodox Judaism, that commandment is from the creator and king of the world. Orthodox Judaism believes that creator will have to be the one to change the commandment if necessary.

You may or may not choose to be Jewish much less Orthodox Jewish. However, I am stating what the Orthodox Jewish faith believes.

I will point out that there are many underdeveloped places in the world and religious groups that are procreating in large numbers. Most of the groups increasing the most oppose freedom and show no regard for the health of our planet.

Jews, Christians, and other free thinking individuals in western countries are not procreating in large numbers. In fact, in most western countries, these groups are not procreating sufficiently to replace members of the groups who die. These western groups are the ones that support freedom for all and show concern for the environment. A very strong argument can be made that if these groups to procreate enough to have a strong enough percentage of the growing human population, the world will be in more peril rather than less.

[Eric6420]

To Walter,

I would simply say, that I think that the irrationality that religion promotes is part of the problem, not of the solution.

And I hope that this is not considered as a lack of respect.

[Rabid_Clam]

Yes, we have 6 billion plus people on this planet now. But is not the number of people that is killing ecology, it is how we manage our resources. We as a species are ignorant as a whole and that ignorance is killing ecology in how we handle it.

There are a good number of individuals that know how to handle it but they have little or no power to install and enforce adequate ecological protocol.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Yes, we have 6 billion plus people on this planet now. But is not the number of people that is killing ecology, it is how we manage our resources. We as a species are ignorant as a whole and that ignorance is killing ecology in how we handle it.

There are a good number of individuals that know how to handle it but they have little or no power to install and enforce adequate ecological protocol.


That is right Rabid, but six billions people cannot live on this planet if they consume as much energy as Americans, Canadians or Europeeans.

The changes we have to make in order to protect the ecology and the people are quite big and challenging.

[EricNY]

You are free to speak your mind, but name calling and personal attacks are not tolerated, you have been here long enough to know that.

And that pertains to everyone, and is not soley directed at you....

...Fair enough?

As far as family values and any secondary meaning to that....I think you need to know me a wee bit better, before passing judgement on me.

[Eric6420]

ErcNY,

Well, I will try not to make personal attacks...

About "family values" in the USA, it is since more than 25 years that evangelists have use this expression to demonize gays on a daily basis.

The expression "family values" cannot be separated from its anti-gay meaning, particularly when gays are banned from the military and many US states have anti-gay marriage laws in their constitution.

In Canada, it would normaly be Bobx to receive this kind of warning, after calling gay sex "offensive" many times.

[Bobx23456]

ROFLMAO!! Not only are name calling and personal attacks tolerated, the MOD even repeats them. Nactman and a couple of his cronies continually do an all out flame war against any member who disagrees with them, and their name calling and personal attacks are tolereated every day. Erick's name calling even gets repeated by the MOD.

CIF has some TOS rules which prohibit name calling and personal attacks, but day after day they are openly encouraged by those who run this forum. DUH!

Blessings
Bob

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:

Americans who vacation in Europe and have gone to Cap d'Agde are not "STUPID." But we do get offended by the gay public sex that is so pervasive there and other places. We get offended by the public gay sex that drives families and children out of our parks at home too. I don't share your agenda, Eric.

Blessings
Bob

Help. I'm a bit confused. Are you finding offense with only gay sex on the beaches at Cap D'Agde? I am quoting you in full so that it can't be said that I parsed your words. But, I don't see anyplace that you said you are offended by seeing heterosexual sex on the beach. Does that mean seeing, watching, and hearing heterosexual sex while enjoying your day at the beach is non-offensive?

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by walter05:



However, I will tell you that the commandment is for sex between a married man and a married woman. The possibility of creating children is one of the expected outcomes. Other sexual experiences are not commanded.



Walter, if reproduction is the only commandment for sex (between a married couple) then those couples in which the female is post-menopause or in which either partner was unable to parent for some reason would be prohibited from marriage.

How can you say that when it comes to homosexuals they can't marry because their union can't proudce children; yet, heterosexuals that can't produce children may marry? Something just doesn't follow in this logic.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobx23456:

Americans who vacation in Europe and have gone to Cap d'Agde are not "STUPID." But we do get offended by the gay public sex that is so pervasive there and other places. We get offended by the public gay sex that drives families and children out of our parks at home too. I don't share your agenda, Eric.

Blessings
Bob

Help. I'm a bit confused. Are you finding offense with only gay sex on the beaches at Cap D'Agde? I am quoting you in full so that it can't be said that I parsed your words. But, I don't see anyplace that you said you are offended by seeing heterosexual sex on the beach. Does that mean seeing, watching, and hearing heterosexual sex while enjoying your day at the beach is non-offensive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He has repeted many times how "offended" he is by gay sex.

The comment I would have to make, is that Americans in general, think that there are universal values.

The problem with sex is that it is viewed from a very different perspective in europeans countries, particularly France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, where public display of sex is not seen as scandalous as in the USA.

In other words, in many many places in Europe, people do have sex outdoors, there is even a book in french that does the promotion of sex outdoors. It is just a part of a european subculture that must be respected for what it is. Europeans have the right to set their own standards on their own teritory.

I was at the Goethe institute in Montreal a few years ago, and when I went to their german bookstore, the responsable of the store was deeply kissing a woman, they were almost having sex, and they did not stop when I entered the store. I was there half an hour, and they had a very sexual posture all the time I was there. By the way, I was not "offended"at all. Most of Europe is far more liberal in term of sex.

Do not assume that other people of other cultures have the same criteria as you concerning sex in public.

[EricNY]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
ROFLMAO!! Not only are name calling and personal attacks tolerated, the MOD even repeats them. Nactman and a couple of his cronies continually do an all out flame war against any member who disagrees with them, and their name calling and personal attacks are tolereated every day. Erick's name calling even gets repeated by the MOD.

CIF has some TOS rules which prohibit name calling and personal attacks, but day after day they are openly encouraged by those who run this forum. DUH!

Blessings
Bob


That is your opinion Bob, but we will not discuss that here.

[David77]

Let us remember that Orthodox Judism is one of three main branches of Judism in the USA.

<center>Synagogue Denominations (%0)

Year - 1990

Conservative 51
Orthodox 10
Reform 35

Year 2001

Conservative 33.1
Orthodox 20.8
Reform 38.5</center>

[Rabid_Clam]

Eric6420, you are totally correct. We just recently are beginnng to create alternate renewable energy sources. We may be late on this but having oil was easy, cheap, readily available, and instant energy. So we bit tooth, claw and hook on that one. We will pay the ultimate price very soon.

Is estimated that in half a century we will be critically low on crude oil. Those prices will sky rocket beyond reach. That will force an issue.

Will roads and interstates become obsolete? Dunno, the factory that makes crystal balls went out of business before I got one.

Is a real issue you and I will not have to deal with as much as our grand children and their children.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Eric6420, you are totally correct. We just recently are beginnng to create alternate renewable energy sources. We may be late on this but having oil was easy, cheap, readily available, and instant energy. So we bit tooth, claw and hook on that one. We will pay the ultimate price very soon.

Is estimated that in half a century we will be critically low on crude oil. Those prices will sky rocket beyond reach. That will force an issue.

Will roads and interstates become obsolete? Dunno, the factory that makes crystal balls went out of business before I got one.

Is a real issue you and I will not have to deal with as much as our grand children and their children.

Yes, but we can face other problems a lot sooner than that. According to Claude Bourgignon, a french agronome, 90% of the soil is dead because of pesticides, fungicides and other chemical products. A lot of animals are dying, and ecologists asked themseves at what persentage of deadly soil the human race may collapse or dying in very large numbers.

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by David77:
Let us remember that Orthodox Juidism is one of three main branches of Judism in the USA.

<center>Synagogue Denominations (%0)

Year - 1990

Conservative 51
Orthodox 10
Reform 35

Year 2001

Conservative 33.1
Orthodox 20.8
Reform 38.5</center>

Yes David, you are quite correct. We also must remember that the Orthodox (including the Ultra-Orthodox and Hassidim)are really no different then other fundies in either Islam or Christianity.

For those not aware the "Conservatives" are actually the moderates. The "Reform"(and NOT Reformed :-)) are the most progressive.

[Naturist Mark]

Eric6420, you are totally correct. We just recently are beginnng to create alternate renewable energy sources. We may be late on this but having oil was easy, cheap, readily available, and instant energy. So we bit tooth, claw and hook on that one. We will pay the ultimate price very soon.
Sadly the US was a pioneer in commercially developing large scale alternative energy - Jimmy Carter set up a massive Federal program 30 years ago to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and eliminate the importation of fuels by 1990. But he lost the 1980 election and all those efforts were immediately shut down - as an act of symbolism even the solar panels on the White House roof were torn down.

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
- as an act of symbolism even the solar panels on the White House roof were torn down.

And for good reason. With the current White House Residents it would be mighty useless. The sun won't grace the White House until after the next election.

[Bobx23456]

It's the curse of CFI forums. When the topic degrades into Bush bashing, it's time to move on.

Blessings
Bob

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
It's the curse of CFI forums. When the topic degrades into Bush bashing, it's time to move on.

Blessings
Bob

You may find gay sex offensive, and that is your right. I personally find your homophobia offensive and that is my right.

Since you find so much to complain about regarding CFF I wonder why you remain. Might you like to constantly complain? Might you be a troll? D*mn if I know.

[sdson]

Hey NudeTopher,

I couldn't agree more. It's too bad that choosing ignorance isn't painful. Hey, can we also add bigotry and intolerance to that? What do you say?

SD

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by sdson:
Hey NudeTopher,

I couldn't agree more. It's too bad that choosing ignorance isn't painful. Hey, can we also add bigotry and intolerance to that? What do you say?

SD

Whatever you wish although I'd think that bigotry and intolerance are indicitive of ignorance.

[simonsebs]

Originally posted by simonsebs:
Honestly, I think it would do more harm than good.

Right now we're trying to gain mainstream acceptance and fight against all the stigmas and stereotypes. The main one being that all it is is sex and that nudist campgrounds and beaches are just huge orgies.

I think nudists are more open about sex than you think. We just understand, that like anything else, there's a certain time and place for it.

I'll just go ahead and repeat what I said earlier in an attempt to get us back on topic.

[Agde]

Thanks for the reminder, Simon! I'd gotten the impression we were discussing whether gay jewish Bush bashers having sex while tearing solar panels off Jimmy Carter's roof in Cap d'Agde should be condemned for bigotry or just ignorance!
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif

[MJ_KC]

To me it is not about forcing ones own preference into a situation you encounter, especially when you are in a foreign country that has their own way of doing things.

When a person is going to travel somewhere, it is their responsibility to find out what they should expect to encounter and not expect everyone else to change just because you showed up.

Just because there might be a need to adopt a more puritan approach in the U.S. does not mean that the rest of the world has to or would even want to do things our way.

[Sanslines]

When a person is going to travel somewhere, it is their responsibility to find out what they should expect to encounter and not expect everyone else to change just because you showed up.


Very true and I have experienced many Americans overseas who demand, while in a foreign country, that the country treat them as if they were still in America. Case in point: Because I speak French, every time that I travel to France, 99 percent of the French people assume that I am Canadian because of their assumption that Americans do not speak foreign languages or understand foreign values and cultures.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
You may find gay sex offensive, and that is your right. I personally find your homophobia offensive and that is my right.

Some things I do find offensive. Name calling aggression on discussion forums is offensive. I have nothing against gays, per-se, but the usual angry, aggressive, gay “in your face” name calling attempts to shout down any disagreements I find very offensive.

Dishonesty is offensive. Eric started this topic with a dishonest advocacy of some general principle. It became apparent after a while that Eric was dishonestly attempting to engage unsuspecting people in order to push a gay public sex agenda. I find that offensive.

Eric’s tactics are not unique. In some other men’s on-line discussion groups recently gay advocates have been dishonestly pretending to be psychology researchers asking men to participate in a psychology study. It turns out to be a fraud to find normal men who might be vulnerable to push a gay political agenda. When someone objects to their dishonesty they return to the all too common name calling. I find their dishonesty and aggression offensive.

Gay public sex became so common in my local public park that families and children were driven out, and the filth left behind became a problem for the maintenance people. When families and children can’t use public parks because gay perverts think that their random public sex is more important than the families and community standards. I find that public gay obscenity very offensive.

Gay public sex became so common and so offensive in the men’s restroom at my local shopping mall that the management took down all the stall partitions and hired a security guard. I was shopping and needed to use the facility, but found that the normal quiet place to do my business had been destroyed by aggressive gays who have no respect for decent people or community standards. I ended my visits to the mall because it was no longer a suitable place for normal men. I find that kind of obscene gay behavior very offensive.

At a nearby hot spring on government land that has been traditionally clothing optional for hundreds of years gay public sex became so much of a problem for the public and got so many complaints to police that it invited a much higher level of police enforcement of clothing laws. Gays public sex had destroyed another wonderful location. I find it very offensive.

At Cap d’Agde gay public sex has an international reputation. Many people who have visited there have been highly offended by the very public open gay sex. The gay public sex at Cap d’Agde has become a topic of conversation and complaint at nudist gathering places half a world away. You can call people names for being offended by the obscene gay behavior in public but that doesn’t change the obscene nature of the gay public sex.

It’s not just one or two gays doing all the obscene public sex. There are gay books and groups who advocate gay public sex in parks, malls, beaches, and elsewhere. I recently posted a link to a behavioral study by an Ivy League university but the mods took it off. Obscene public behavior is taught in “how to” books and groups. If find that offensive.

When any decent person objects to gays pushing their obscene agendas on-line numerous gays gang up on the objector and begin a what has become a typical round of name calling aimed at shouting down any objections. I find that kind of dishonest, rude, aggressive pushing to be offensive too.

So go ahead, do all your obscene name calling. One thing I’ve learned over the years is that on-line name calling is largely ineffective, its just very offensive to decent people.

Blessings
Bob

[Rabid_Clam]

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. Is their right. But also is the right of any other to have and maintain an opposing opinion.

Neither side has right to put the other down or to belittle the other. But they can share opposing thoughts without having to force them on any other.

Yes, gays and their sex openly has ruined many places. There are several places very near me where gays have ruined visits with gay sex acts in the open. Again, there is a time and place for everything, and some people simply cannot figure that out so we all suffer for it.

Always one in every group. I have gone to a park area where there are trails in the woods, following those trails I have come across gay folk having totally nude penetration sex in the wide open. I did not complain but for sure that is not what nudism is about nor is that the time and place for that.

Is those things that ruin it for everyone else. Very selfish. But is how it is in the existance of this humanity we call intelligent life.

[EricNY]

I am just wondering......

The title to this topic is Sex and Nudity.....

....When did it become specific to homosexual sex? Are we implying that hetro sex in public is ok? Sure seems it.

Let's not make this gay specific!

[simonsebs]

Originally posted by ercNY:


....When did it become specific to homosexual sex? Are we implying that hetro sex in public is ok? Sure seems it.



I can only speak for myself, but I don't think its ok. I'm cool with public displays of affection(kissing, hand holding, light caressing) but anything beyond that should be done in private, regardless of sexual orientation.

[labrat93562]

Originally posted by ercNY:
I am just wondering......

The title to this topic is Sex and Nudity.....

....When did it become specific to homosexual sex? Are we implying that hetro sex in public is ok? Sure seems it.

Let's not make this gay specific!

I agree. I'm happily hetro and I disagree with any sex in public where someone might be taking thier children. Thier are clubs, locations and of course private homes where you can find any kind of sex you wish. To do so in areas trditionally used for simple nudity is damaging and not at all helpfull to the naturist movement. If I wanted to watch someone have sex I'd buy some porn or invite someone who's into being watched over. I don't believe we as nudists have the right to just go nude anyplace we wish because people have the right to raise thier children that social nudity is wrong no matter how we may disagree with that point of view. Likewise I have the right to take my kids to a public park or beach wether c/o or textile without them being exposed to public sex of any type. I agree the "no sex" rule can be carried too far like anything else. I have no problem with public affection like hugging and kissing but oral copulation and full penetration or masturbating is a bit much.

[Walt Iliff]

Wow!! Another "where to start" post. First of all, I really don't think that listening to the fantasies of a few "wannabee" nudists about how nudism could be improved if we turned a blind eye to public displays of sexual activities is in any way shape or form a productive activity. There are a few posters on this board whose views and opinions I basically skip over because it's an absolute waste of time even reading them not to mention replying to them. Suffice it to say that there is plenty of empirical evidence to prove that whenever any nudist venue becomes the kind of place where sexual activity is accepted by those who frequent such a location, the place ceases to be "family friendly" and as such places the rest of us in a position where we have to defend ALL beaches, lakes, parks, etc from those textiled individuals who believe that that is what nudism is all about. If someone believes that the way to attract younger people to nudism is to make it more sexual, then they have identified themselves as nudist fantasy junkies with no real clue about how the real world works.

Walt Iliff

[walter05]

NudeTopher;

You said, "Walter, if reproduction is the only commandment for sex (between a married couple) then those couples in which the female is post-menopause or in which either partner was unable to parent for some reason would be prohibited from marriage."

That is an interesting question. The Talmud deals with that question. The commandment for Adam and his descendants is often translated as "Be Fruitful and Multiply". However, the original Hebrew is "Peru Urevu". {I tried to transliterate it here.} This is the same word in and different form for grammatical reasons repeated.

The Talmud asks why is the word repeated and there are two reasons offered.

One reason is that ideally a married couple will participate in the creation of a male and a female. This means that the commandment is fulfilled to the highest level when the couple has participated in the creation of two children, one male, and one female.

Another reason answers your question. It is really two commandments. Have sex and have children. However, they are linked.

A married couple where one of them or both of them are sterile are still commanded to have sex. Even though they will not produce children, the closeness that the sex will promote is important enough for the commandment.

It is even possible that some forms of birth control are used by married Orthodox Jewish couples. At times, a competent Rav will instruct the couple to use birth control pills, IUDs, ets. This can be done if the pregnancy would be a danger to the woman’s health so that the married couple can still fulfill the commandment to have sex.

When a married man and woman have intercourse, Orthodox Judaism considers it a time of tremendous holiness. It is a fulfillment of a major commandment. It is not just that they are permitted to have sex. They are commanded to do so because of the holiness of the act.

However, your assertion NudeTopher; “We also must remember that the Orthodox (including the Ultra-Orthodox and Hassidim)are really no different then other fundies in either Islam or Christianity.”

Orthodox Judaism does not attempt to convert others. It does not attempt to kill others who don’t practice it. Orthodox Judaism asserts that good and kind non-Jews have a share in the world to come. This is a fundamental difference. Orthodox Judaism does not attempt to convert anyone else or kill anyone else who does not share the Orthodox Jewish view.

[Eric6420]

It is the first time I hear that gay men are having public sex in so much public places in the USA.

However, not to insult anyone, the way Bobx talks about gays remember me of some past history about other people.

But I will not say what it is, because Bobx would be insulted and I would be to blame.

In the other hand, when we hear all the homophobia that there is on radio, both talk and religious, maybe public sex is a good way to protest.

Maybe a deal can be made. You allow gay marriage, you forbids public homophobia and in exchange, no more gay public sex in parks and where children may be. That's about the deal we have in Canada.

Have a nice day!

[walter05]

Eric;

Since you raise the marriage issue and discuss the public sex issue, I want to provide my opinion.

Sex should promote closeness and be a form of special communication. As such, it should be private to promote that closeness. I find all public sex to be degrading of human beings and object to all of it.

As far as marriage, I think the government should stay out of the issue. If a couple of people want to form a contract, which enables them to share a lifetime of expenses and financial responsibilities that is fine. If they want a form of power of attorney over each other if one can't speak, that is fine. If they want to inherit each other, that is fine.

Those contracts should be promoted. They could then be recorded at the courthouse and enforced just as any contracts are.

Sexuality is none of the government's business. The government should not even know about it. Therefore, if two men, two women, or one of each want to form those contracts, that is fine.

If someone wants to be married for religious reasons, then a Synagogue, Church, Mosque, etc. should be able to permit the marriage per the rules of that faith.

In short, I think that marriage is a religious matter and the government should stay out and no longer sanction marriage at all. However, the general legal protections and privileges that are currently enjoyed by married couples could be enjoyed by anyone that enters in the correct contracts.

[sdson]

Originally posted by ercNY:
I am just wondering......

The title to this topic is Sex and Nudity.....

....When did it become specific to homosexual sex? Are we implying that hetro sex in public is ok? Sure seems it.

Let's not make this gay specific!


Thanks for stepping in. I think there's enough of examples of inappropriate behavior that can be assigned to every, race, age, ethnicity, regligous afflication, political affiliation, sexual preference, gender, etc. There is more than enough of blame to go around and eligible targets for all of it.


I agree, Let's not make this gay (or any other group)specific!

[RichNH]

Originally posted by Walt Iliff:
why should White Tail be apparently immune from this, where other parks are experiencing what you've described at your club.
Walt

In a word, "management", meaning the specific people and the policies they have put in place over the years. (And this from a guy who's never been to any club at all.)

Rich

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
You may find gay sex offensive, and that is your right. I personally find your homophobia offensive and that is my right.

Some things I do find offensive. Name calling aggression on discussion forums is offensive. I have nothing against gays, per-se, but the usual angry, aggressive, gay “in your face” name calling attempts to shout down any disagreements I find very offensive.

Dishonesty is offensive. Eric started this topic with a dishonest advocacy of some general principle. It became apparent after a while that Eric was dishonestly attempting to engage unsuspecting people in order to push a gay public sex agenda. I find that offensive.

Eric’s tactics are not unique. In some other men’s on-line discussion groups recently gay advocates have been dishonestly pretending to be psychology researchers asking men to participate in a psychology study. It turns out to be a fraud to find normal men who might be vulnerable to push a gay political agenda. When someone objects to their dishonesty they return to the all too common name calling. I find their dishonesty and aggression offensive.

Gay public sex became so common in my local public park that families and children were driven out, and the filth left behind became a problem for the maintenance people. When families and children can’t use public parks because gay perverts think that their random public sex is more important than the families and community standards. I find that public gay obscenity very offensive.

Gay public sex became so common and so offensive in the men’s restroom at my local shopping mall that the management took down all the stall partitions and hired a security guard. I was shopping and needed to use the facility, but found that the normal quiet place to do my business had been destroyed by aggressive gays who have no respect for decent people or community standards. I ended my visits to the mall because it was no longer a suitable place for normal men. I find that kind of obscene gay behavior very offensive.

At a nearby hot spring on government land that has been traditionally clothing optional for hundreds of years gay public sex became so much of a problem for the public and got so many complaints to police that it invited a much higher level of police enforcement of clothing laws. Gays public sex had destroyed another wonderful location. I find it very offensive.

At Cap d’Agde gay public sex has an international reputation. Many people who have visited there have been highly offended by the very public open gay sex. The gay public sex at Cap d’Agde has become a topic of conversation and complaint at nudist gathering places half a world away. You can call people names for being offended by the obscene gay behavior in public but that doesn’t change the obscene nature of the gay public sex.

It’s not just one or two gays doing all the obscene public sex. There are gay books and groups who advocate gay public sex in parks, malls, beaches, and elsewhere. I recently posted a link to a behavioral study by an Ivy League university but the mods took it off. Obscene public behavior is taught in “how to” books and groups. If find that offensive.

When any decent person objects to gays pushing their obscene agendas on-line numerous gays gang up on the objector and begin a what has become a typical round of name calling aimed at shouting down any objections. I find that kind of dishonest, rude, aggressive pushing to be offensive too.

So go ahead, do all your obscene name calling. One thing I’ve learned over the years is that on-line name calling is largely ineffective, its just very offensive to decent people.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, you totally avoided answering the question that I asked. Please scroll up and reply to my post of August 12th at 4:8pm.

To save you the work, I will restate it for you here:
Help. I'm a bit confused. Are you finding offense with only gay sex on the beaches at Cap D'Agde? I am quoting you in full so that it can't be said that I parsed your words. But, I don't see anyplace that you said you are offended by seeing heterosexual sex on the beach. Does that mean seeing, watching, and hearing heterosexual sex while enjoying your day at the beach is non-offensive?

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by walter05:
NudeTopher;


However, your assertion NudeTopher; “We also must remember that the Orthodox (including the Ultra-Orthodox and Hassidim)are really no different then other fundies in either Islam or Christianity.”

Orthodox Judaism does not attempt to convert others. It does not attempt to kill others who don’t practice it. Orthodox Judaism asserts that good and kind non-Jews have a share in the world to come. This is a fundamental difference. Orthodox Judaism does not attempt to convert anyone else or kill anyone else who does not share the Orthodox Jewish view.

When I stated that fundies are all the same regardless of their religion I was thinking of the way in which they view their scriptures. Reform Jews believe that while the bible/Torah has the essence of God's influence it was written by human scribes and therefore has been influenced by humans. The Orthodox on the otherhand believe it to be God's exact words. When you flip to Christianity you see the same things. The fundies claim the bible is infallable and is God's exact words. More progressive brands of Christianity don't take things quite that literally.

My observations lead me to believe that between progressives you can find areas of agreement and compromise. The fundies are so wrapped up in their dogma that peace and co-existance in the world is impossible.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
To save you the work, I will restate it for you here:
Help. I'm a bit confused. Are you finding offense with only gay sex on the beaches at Cap D'Agde?

It has only been the rampant gay public sex at Cap d'Agde that I've heard people complaining about six thousand miles away. It is also only gay public sex that is driving children and familes out of my local parks, causing problems in the men's restroom at the local mall, or inviting police surveliance at the nearby hot spring. Are we seeing a pattern here?

Blessings
Bob

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
To save you the work, I will restate it for you here:
Help. I'm a bit confused. Are you finding offense with only gay sex on the beaches at Cap D'Agde?

It has only been the rampant gay public sex at Cap d'Agde that I've heard people complaining about six thousand miles away. It is also only gay public sex that is driving children and familes out of my local parks, causing problems in the men's restroom at the local mall, or inviting police surveliance at the nearby hot spring. Are we seeing a pattern here?

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Twice i asked you if you have found or would find heterosexual sex on the beach offensive.

Twice you refused to answer that question and had cases of verbal diarrea about gay sex.

You condone heterosexual sex on the beach but find gay sex offensive!

I can tell you that at our local nude beach, between the regulars, the park police and the county police sexual behavior is kept to the bare minimum (no pun intneded). When there is sexual activity it is more then likely among heterosexual couples as gay couples. This I know from being there - not from listening to rumors from 6,000 miles away.

Perhaps it is time for you to find that rock from who's underside you slithered.

[walter05]

NudeTopher;

Your pointing out that fundies believe their holy scriptures to be divine and infallible is accurate and fair.

I will not claim that all Orthodox Jews are open and welcoming. As in all groups, there are different personalities.

However, since Orthodox Jews don't want to impose doctrine on anyone else, that is a significant difference.

It is okay to disagree with someone. It is not okay to attempt to force them to conform to your ideas.

Once you are not attempting to force others to conform, then you can admire a lot about them. This is a fundamental, pun intended, difference.

[Lilwilly]

Amen Walter05. If more people took note of your last 2 statements this would be a better place for nudists and everyone else.

[David77]

To point out the great contrast between the Orthodox and Reform, the Orthodox consider homosexuality a sin, but the Reform group is liberal and will have ceremonies to bless same sex couples. The Reform permit gay and lesbian rabbi and cantors. The Reform temple in St. Louis has a wonderful females rabbi, much respected and appreciated by her congregation.

P.S. The Reform group is close to the ethical approach of the Unitarian Universalists, of which I am a member.

[nudebushwalker]

I usually take a left-leaning or more liberal position on most topics in these forums, but this is is one area where I would be more inclined to side with the more conservative writers here...

Open and explicit sexual displays in popular areas - beaches, parks, public spaces - simply isn't acceptable, no matter the inclinations of the participants - hetero', gay, foot-lickers, dogs, horses or whatever. There are plenty of more-or-less remote, rugged and otherwise private, or semi-private, beaches, forests and similarly suitable places, where people should be able to discretely bonk or wank to their hearts content without offending anyone else; irregardless of their personal religious, philosophical or political bent(s)..

Since when has walking an extra kilometre or two, to find that more discrete spot, hurt anyone?

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Walt Iliff:
I understand what you're saying, but why should White Tail be apparently immune from this, where other parks are experiencing what you've described at your club. We are drawing from the same "pool" so to speak, but we seem to have avoided many of the problems you describe. Luck? Evolution? Intelligent Design?? I don't know, but we just had a terrific weekend the beginning of the month with over 1,000 nudists on the grounds with an age range from infants to octogenarians.
Walt

Good question Walt. For one thing, WTP has a long history of being less uptight as some other parks. On my one visit to WTP some years ago now there was a party with nude dancing, bodies rubbing bodies in public and feeling good about it. I found the locals all friendly and inviting visitors, my wife and I to dance. I had a great time. Most everyone else seemed to also. I wouldn't call it "public sex" but neither was it "no two bodies shall touch."

Maybe there is a middle ground between uptight and public sex that WTP has found over the years. I think that some of it might be that the people are friendly and actually do invite visitors to participate. Having a good time is contageious.

Blessings
Bob

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by NudeTopher I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Twice i asked you if you have found or would find heterosexual sex on the beach offensive.



I don't know, never seen any. I've never seen men and women openly screwing at the local hot spring and inviting police enforcemnt of nudity laws. I've never had my local mall management posting security guards in the restrooms because men and women were getting it together. Sex between men and women has never gotten so open and flagrant that families and children are afraid to go to the park and police have had to become involved to recapure the park for picnicers. I've never seen shelves of books at my local bookstore advocating "public sex" between men and women. I've never seen web sites listing the "best places for public sex" between straight men and women. I've never had offended nudists bending my ear about flagrant public sex between men and women. I've never been to a beach were there was a "dunes" area that people were advised to stay away from because of flagrant notorious public sex between men and women.

The gay population is a small percentage of the total population, but somehow it always seems to be the small number of gays making trouble in public places, at least in areas near where I have lived. Several beaches now have "gay areas" where people who don't want to watch public sex are advised to stay away. But I've never been to a beach that had a notorisous straight public sex area.

If I ever see open and offensive public sex by straight couples day after day driving children out of public parks and people off the beach, If I ever see that, I very well might be offended, but so far, I haven't seen any. It's really never been an issue. If I ever see any I'll try to remember to let you know if I become offended.

And you can save your pathetic 3rd grade name calling. It only demonstrates that you have nothing of any substance to add to a conversation. Your efforts would be much better spent suggesting to your gay friends that their public sex behavior is unwelcome and spoils the image for all gays.

Blessings
Bob

[P.J.]

There are and probabaly always be some views which Eric and I will never share.

Although some of his observations are based on hard facts (and I think that although we may not share opinions, we all tend to agree with established fact), I also notice that some of his comments are still are filled with the typical old stereotypes which he uses to back up his side of the argument along with labels used to attack those who disagree.

As a man who is straight, conservative, a religious fundamentalist right, a musician (whose musical styles includes rock) and a nudist, I take offense to his (and anyone elses) allegations that people like me are all the same: against freedom.

If you have a gripe with any social, political or religious people, please specify by use of names and refrain from using blanket accusations to attack groups.

As far as sexual activity and nudism are concerned, there are plenty of appropriate times and places to put the two together. In public and in any family-friendly enviroment are never appropriate.

Did it ever occur to anyone that the opposition that so many single males encounter at nude resorts originated from the blatant and ignorant overt sexual misbehavior of a few who just don't get it???

Why do you think that single females are so rarely found at any nude beaches, parks and resorts???

[David77]

No one posting on this forum is advocating visable, public sex, or public sex exhibitions. So we must be in agreement on that point.

[Journeyman]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
... I've never seen men and women openly screwing at the local hot spring and inviting police enforcemnt of nudity laws. I've never had my local mall management posting security guards in the restrooms because men and women were getting it together. Sex between men and women has never gotten so open and flagrant that families and children are afraid to go to the park and police have had to become involved to recapure the park for picnicers. I've never seen shelves of books at my local bookstore advocating "public sex" between men and women. I've never seen web sites listing the "best places for public sex" between straight men and women. I've never had offended nudists bending my ear about flagrant public sex between men and women. I've never been to a beach were there was a "dunes" area that people were advised to stay away from because of flagrant notorious public sex between men and women.


Bobx23456, it must be very time consuming to experience or have experienced all of the above with homosexuals or about homosexuality. But I guess you're on a mission or something?

Your antigay posts are interesting in that I wondered about your motivation. This is an excerpt from Dr. Gregory Herek and his "Sexual Orientation: Science, Education and Policy":

'A variety of motivations underlie sexual prejudice. One way to understand those motives is to ask how a particular heterosexual's antigay attitudes benefit her or him psychologically. ...

...Sexual prejudice can only serve an experiential function when the heterosexual has had personal contact with gay men or lesbians. For those who have not had such contact, homosexuality and gay people are primarily symbols.

Whereas attitudes toward people with whom one has direct experience function primarily to organize and make sense of those experiences, attitudes toward symbols serve a different kind of function.

Such attitudes help people to increase their self-esteem by expressing important aspects of themselves – by declaring (to themselves and to others) what sort of people they are. Affirming who one is often is accomplished by distancing oneself from or even attacking people who represent the sort of person one is not (or does not want to be).'

[Eric6420]

As a man who is straight, conservative, a religious fundamentalist right, a musician (whose musical styles includes rock) and a nudist, I take offense to his (and anyone elses) allegations that people like me are all the same: against freedom.

Are you against gay marriage? Because if you oppose gay marriage, you do not believe in freedom.

[Eric6420]

No one posting on this forum is advocating visable, public sex, or public sex exhibitions. So we must be in agreement on that point.

It depends on what you are talking about. In the arts, sex may be very important.

In the Netherlands and some cities in Germany, you have sex shops and protitution agencies on main street.

And does sex in a forest is public sex?

[Eric6420]

Such attitudes help people to increase their self-esteem by expressing important aspects of themselves – by declaring (to themselves and to others) what sort of people they are. Affirming who one is often is accomplished by distancing oneself from or even attacking people who represent the sort of person one is not (or does not want to be).'

That is true.

However, there is another point to bring in that discussion. We have to differenciate men who have sex with men and gay men.

A man who have sex with a man is not necesarly a homosexual. A lot of heterosexual men simply want a partner to have sex, and men also tends to like sex more than women and more often and do not care if the sex is casual. It is not all men, but it is a big part.

So when a man wants to have sex and that he does not have a wife or a girlfriend, it is a lot easier and cheapper to find another man than a woman.

Men having sex with other men, in places like woods for example, is probably old as humanity itself.

Bobx is at least right on one point, is that most of the sex outdoors, in woods, in restrooms, and so on, is mostly between men, but that does not mean that they are gay men.

To point out that fact is not homophobic. And we have to stop to think the the reality of men having sex in the woods is bad in itself. We should not forget that man is part of nature and sex also.

On the other hand, in big cities, bathouses or saunas are very interesting places for men who want to have sex with other men.

In Montreal, you have more than 10 of theses establshments open 24/24 and that are able to accomodate hundreds of men at a time.

So a good way to lessen sex between men in public places is to build saunas where they can meet and have sex.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Journeyman:
Your antigay posts are interesting in that I wondered about your motivation. This is an excerpt from Dr. Gregory Herek and his "Sexual Orientation: Science, Education and Policy":


Ahh, the classic "you need a shirnk" flame. That was old on-line 20 years ago. The details vary, but the basic flame gets repeated over and over. Not even any imagination. It's sooooo old and sooooo booooring.

Your pathetic flameing only demonstrates your own mental state.

Blessings
Bob

[David77]

And does sex in a forest is public sex?
No, sex in a forest is not public sex, if there is no "public" around, but is in a private location.

[Eric6420]

About public sex in France, the movie Cote d'Azur, is quite good.

In the film, there is a wood near the beach where men meet to have sex.

Of course, the sex there bothers no one in the movie, they did not think of americans tourists like Bobx who say "I am offended by theses perverts" and do not think that other countries have other standards to judge what is moral.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by David77:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And does sex in a forest is public sex?
No, sex in a forest is not public sex, if there is no "public" around, but is in a private location. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but the notion of public sex is complicated, because when you live in a culture where sex is everywhere, it is not easy to determine what would be public sex. The german movie Regular Guys (Echte Kerle), is quite good to show how sex is very visible in Germany.

For example, if there is 20 guys in the woods, is that still not public sex?

The people (mostly males) who have sex on the outdoors, usually do it at night in relatively remote places. They do not do that to offend anyone, and in France and other liberal countries, very few people complain about it (except tourists from America who tell it to Bobx).

[David77]

Some men and women enjoy being watched as they are having sex, as it adds to their sexual arousal, but this is rare - I suppose that this is as rare as those who have a fetish for spanking or masochistic pain to make their sexual experience feel more intense.

Most people seek privacy, as public sex is a great turn-off, taking away the ability to have sex. They find it a distraction and takes away their consentration and enjoyment.

Therefore I do not think that, in Europe and elsewhere, is there much public sex that is visable nor that it is a custom. In other words, rare.

[David77]

For example, if there is 20 guys in the woods, is that still not public sex?

No, not if 20 consenting persons are well out of sight of the public and it is completely private. The trouble come when unethical persons, or careless persons, don't give a damn about the public's sensibilities.

[Eric6420]

Originally posted by David77:
Some men and women enjoy being watched as they are having sex, as it adds to their sexual arousal, but this is rare - I suppose that this is as rare as those who have a fetish for spanking or masochistic pain to make their sexual experience feel more intense.

Most people seek privacy, as public sex is a great turn-off, taking away the ability to have sex. They find it a distraction and takes away their consentration and enjoyment.

Therefore I do not think that, in Europe and elsewhere, is there much public sex that is visable nor that it is a custom. In other words, rare.

I understand what you mean, but I think that the mindset is quite different in Europe than in the USA, that's true for religion as well as sex.

Of course, people in Europe do not have sex on the street, but the culture is quite far from America in some ways. It depends where you are in Europe.

Also, if you see some episodes of Que*r as Folk,
you will see that in gay culture, sex is very important and is not always very private.

Another example, in latin countries of Europe, a man can look at a woman in public in a way that shows that he is interested in her sexually. The same thing would be considered sexual harrasment in the USA. So the gap is big and quite real.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by David77:
Therefore I do not think that, in Europe and elsewhere, is there much public sex that is visable nor that it is a custom. In other words, rare.

I tend to agree with you David. I'm pretty widely read, and I correspond frequently with many Europeans. Until Eric I've never heard much mention of public sex in Europe, other than the same kind of gay public sex that goes on so frequently in the US as well as Europe. My mind is open to learn new information about different customs in different countries, and Europe certainly is not homogenious in customs. But until I learn some more from independent sources, I'm not ready to take Eric's word about wide spread open public sex all over Europe.

Blessings
Bob

[Eric6420]

It all depends of what you call "public sex".

But I do not like the notion of public sex, because the criteria is not so clear.

A sex shop that advertise on public telivision and is located on main steet looks quite as a public place to me.

A dance club with erotic nude dancers that is located on a big city main street looks quite public to me.

Even the internet is a place where pratically anyone can go and has a lot of sex.

Even in Montreal, on Ste-Catherine street (main commercial street), you can see sex advertised in very big red letters.

When I watch french TV (TV5) and I see the dancers from Moulin Rouge, the program originally broadcast on France 2 (Public French tv), in an official event such as the 14 July (French national day), and the French president is there applauding with the public, the almost nude female dancers, with a dance that is very erotic, I think that describes quite well what is the french attitude towards sex.

[David77]

It all depends of what you call "public sex".
Yes, we have in some cities and towns in the USA, that which you describe in your last post, but that is not "having sex, which we are talking about.

When I went to Paris France three years ago I went to one of the famous cabarets called Crazy Horse which specialized in a large group of lovely tall female dancers who were nude except for having a black patch over their vulva. I think that Paris law required this small amount of modesty. The show was in good taste and not pornographic, eventhough it was all about the nude form, as advertised. The show specialized in using various colored lights to make various patterns on the female form. It was akin to body painting but only with various colored lights instead of paint.

You state that there is no sex on the street in Europe and I can affirm that I saw no sex on the street in Europe.

[Eric6420]

Hi David,

You seem to me far more tolerant than most Americans, when it comes to sexuality.

To give you an example, one of my french literature teacher know another french literature teacher in the university of California in L.A.

He said to us, that the teacher at the university of California in L.A. had a problem because she show to her students a french movie called Ridicule, in which, in the beginig of the movie, we can see a man urinate. It was the only thing remotly sexual in the movie and the students complained to the director that the movie was obsene.

In our university, they show us a movie that is ten times more sexual than "Ridicule" with no problems at all. The movie they show at our university is "l'auberge espagnole". It is for people who want to participate in the exchange student program with other countries. It is a very popular movie (l'auberge espagnole) that I have at home.

Do you think that the reaction at the L.A. students was extreme, or representative of Californians?

l'auberge espagnole (trailer) (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=CCs6AzLeNQI)

[David77]

Eric,
Yes, I saw the movie "l'auberge espagnole" on my cable TV screen. It did not show much that was risque.

As for those students who objected to the movie "Ridicule."

First let me say that I have relatives in California and some are liberals who would not have objected to the movie and some of my relatives are conservative Baptists and maybe some might have objected.

It seems that the class you mention in California happened to have some persuasive conservatives in class to register such a complaint. Many movies in movie houses and on cable TV have much stronger material, so I think that the incident you mention may have been a fluke event and probably, generally uncharacteristic of USA at large. Many persons can see soft porn on regular cable TV at night across the USA, but not in every state - such as seen in the state of Illinois, but not in the state of Missouri. The court in Illinois was presented with a survey of cable subscribers that showed that the majority of cable subscribers had no issue with it being shown at night.

[Eric6420]

For thoses interested, here is the trailer of a french movie called Le Libertin.

It is about the life of Denis Diderot, one of the greatest french writer and philosopher of the 18th century. He was also the creator with his friend d'Alembert, of one of the first encyclopedia in the western world.

A lot of what we have of liberal and free thinking comes from the philosophers of this period who were about enlightement and inspiration for the french revolution.

The movie is funny, quite sexual, but I think the dvd is only in french with no english subtitles. See the trailer.

Le libertin (trailer) (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=jF4Ud09BF14)

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by walter05:
NudeTopher;

Your pointing out that fundies believe their holy scriptures to be divine and infallible is accurate and fair.

I will not claim that all Orthodox Jews are open and welcoming. As in all groups, there are different personalities.

However, since Orthodox Jews don't want to impose doctrine on anyone else, that is a significant difference.

It is okay to disagree with someone. It is not okay to attempt to force them to conform to your ideas.

Once you are not attempting to force others to conform, then you can admire a lot about them. This is a fundamental, pun intended, difference.

Yet, they are quite intolerant. When my cousin was doing his internship some of the hospital's department heads were Orthodox. Since my cousin was brought up in a Reform environment they told him that (1) he wasn't Jewish and (2) he was treated significantly different from med students they considered "their own."

*While you shouldn't generalizefrom anecdotal evidence; in this care I believe it to be true.

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Twice i asked you if you have found or would find heterosexual sex on the beach offensive.



I don't know, never seen any. I've never seen men and women openly screwing at the local hot spring and inviting police enforcemnt of nudity laws.... But I've never been to a beach that had a notorisous straight public sex area. ...if I ever see that, I very well might be offended, but so far, I haven't seen any. It's really never been an issue. If I ever see any I'll try to remember to let you know if I become offended.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as I supsected. When you shovel all the manure in your post to the side what remains is that you can't and won't state that you would find hetersexu