Gender Imbalance -Quotas at Nudist Reports [Archive]

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by Elendil:
Gender Imbalance has been an issue in nudism for awhile now. [/single-male-quotas-at-resorts.html]Quotas[/URL]

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

I belong to many different type of organizations from my car club to academic clubs. In some there are more guys and in some there are more girls. It just goes with the territory of the club. Nobody would dare suggest that to join an academic club there has to be an acceptable female:male ratio - that is absolutely absurd!

Also, what about non-heterosexuals. How would the requirement adversely effect either lesbian or gays in either couplehood or as singles? It would be discriminatory; just as it would be discriminatory against single heterosexuals.

Honestly, I wonder about the real agenda of those who want either couples only or gender "balancing".

Naturist Mark

09-04-2007, 05:11 AM

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

That may seem the case, but the real problem is that on the whole women are more reluctant to participate in nude recreation than men. If you don't believe me go to your nearest nude beach and take a survey. Many avid female nudists had to be persuaded and cajoled by a friend, husband or boyfriend the first time. Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark

chuckincville

09-04-2007, 05:29 AM

Haven't we seen enough quotas?
Why deny this freedom to anyone???
If nudism is a predomininately male activity -- so be it. I would have been an active participant years ago but I couldn't find a club in my area that would accept singles. There are a lot of activities that are male dominated -- hunting, fishing, in fact most sports -- should we put quotas on them? If nudism is of interest to more men than women-- what's wrong with that?
I just recently enjoyed my first experience of social nudism (with my wifes' reluctant permission). My dream is for us to be able to share this freedom together - but until I can convince her to try it my participation will be extremely limited if not curtailed altogether. I'm not ready to throw a 42 year relationship out the window. So in my situation it would be easier to be active in an all male club - if such a thing existed.
And what's wrong with mens locker rooms? I remember when the atmosphere there was relaxed and open and nudity was totally natural. Not today --- we have a membership in a local health club where swimming suits are required in the whirlpool and sauna -- some guys even shower in there underwear!!! Homophobia Rules!??
Are singles a threat? Are couples relationships so tenuous that they have to fear singles? - when we're exposed to singles everyday at work and most all social situations.
Does nudity really equal sex? - as my wife insists and a quota seems to suggest.
Educate me -- what's the problem?

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

That may seem the case, but the real problem is that on the whole women are more reluctant to participate in nude recreation than men. If you don't believe me go to your nearest nude beach and take a survey. Many avid female nudists had to be persuaded and cajoled by a friend, husband or boyfriend the first time. Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was discriminated against by a club that advertises that it is "singles friendly." I called up to ask if I could visit, stated that I am an AANR member, was told "we have had enough singles this season, try us again next summer." Do the really think that I would ever call them back or want to spend any money there?

So far I have visited three nude beaches one small one (Smith Point) and two larger ones (Lighthouse Beach & Sandy Hook/Gunnison). Are there more males at these nude beaches? Yup? Is there a greater percentage of women at the textile beaches nearby? Nope

Following the (il)logic of "gender balancing" I would now expect that there will be a call for less guys to go to the textile beaches so that the females there are in a more equal number. The same may be applied to sports stadiums, horse and car tracks, and a host of other activities.

chuckincville

09-04-2007, 06:00 AM

Naturist Mark

09-04-2007, 06:06 AM

I was discriminated against by a club that advertises that it is "singles friendly." I called up to ask if I could visit, stated that I am an AANR member, was told "we have had enough singles this season, try us again next summer." Do the really think that I would ever call them back or want to spend any money there?
That is unfortunate - clearly that club did not issue a bulletin to turn away Christopher, most likely some of the women guests or members had begun to complain about the overabundance of men. I'm not going to say it is fair, it is not. But until harmless nudity becomes decriminalized in America we have to live with the rules of those who are able to provide a ghetto for 'freedom' in recreation. Following the (il)logic of "gender balancing" I would now expect that there will be a call for less guys to go to the textile beaches so that the females there are in a more equal number.

Of course there is no one to administer 'gender balancing' on a public beach, nude or textile, but you do see very much the same dynamic at play. Very few single women, mostly women attend in groups or as a couples. The difference is that often the 'group' is a mom with kids, or a group of girlfriends.

I am lucky to have never been turned away from a resort or club activity as a single. Have you tried any other resorts?

-Mark

1Ace

09-04-2007, 06:25 AM

It would be nice to see a better balance at clubs/resorts/beaches, but I don't know if anybody has the magic answer for this one...

DoctorSurferDude

09-04-2007, 08:08 AM

There is no easy answer..... but I agree that a "No Single Males" policy is unfair.

I do, however, see the value of maintaining some kind of fair ratio. I'm not saying it has to be equal, but I've seen the perils of having a ratio be too unequal....it has the potential to create an environment that is not optimal for visiting females. Females need to feel safe....and I'm not sure exactly at what point it breaks down, but somewhere a threshold is reached when testosterone takes over in the pool area and combined with beer....the ladies cease to feel at ease, the relaxation ends.

Granted, it's a few bad apples.....but bad apples are opportunistic.

So I think ratios are important, they are good for the resort from a business standpoint and from a survival standpoint.

I don't think having a quota on males is discriminatory.....just wake up earlier, nobody is saying males can't go, they are just saying "limited availability". It's like selling running out of spots at dance class http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

DoctorSurferDude

09-04-2007, 08:21 AM

Most of my years as a nudist I've been the "Single Male". I know the trials and tribulations of trying to get into a resort under that stigma. I endured it, without complaining, I figured out what was required, I found solutions to the problems. I never took it personally when I was asked to not visit for the day. I understood the importance of maintaining a balanced and equal nudist environment and was patient until I had my turn.

Here are some inspirational quotes about complaining....

"Instead of complaining that the rosebush is full of thorns, be happy that the thorn bush has roses” - German Proverb

“The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects.” - Lord Jeffrey

“The people who live in a golden age usually go around complaining how yellow everything looks” - Randall Jarrell

"You can overcome anything if you don't bellyache. " ~Bernard M. Baruch

And my favorite....

“If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo

David77

09-04-2007, 08:25 AM

In addition to the "gender balance" rule of some resorts, there is the question of some resorts not allowing a person to visit without his wife.

Before my wife died, I visited Show Me Acres Resort near the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri by myself once, and was told not to return without my wife.

Some resorts are accepting of men without their wives along.

There were some <u>single</u> men there, however.

usuallylurk

09-04-2007, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by David77:
In addition to the "gender balance" rule of Some resorts are accepting of men without their wives along.

There were some <u>single</u> men there, however.

OK, as a long-timer, let me explain a few things.

First of all, there are very few parks and clubs that restrict singles. Some have quotas because they try to maintain a REASONABLE gender balance on their grounds at any time.

And - yes, many women feel uncomfortable in an imbalanced situation. A lot of people arguing that point will retort with =

1) "IT'S NOT TRUE". Well, folks, IT IS. If you are at a place with open admission, a woman may say it doesn't bother her. On the other hand, if you were to visit the parks where a balance/quota/restriction system was in place, you very well will get a decidedly different answer.

2) "IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS (marrieds w/non-participating spouses)" If they want to make it their business, they can, and they do. Clubs make rules and establish their atmosphere around them.

Many clubs have been advised that admitting married individuals without their spouses can lead to legal difficulties for the club and its members. This is particularly true of many cooperatively held clubs. Remember, a co-op is owned and operated by its members for the enjoyment of its members.

You also hear some really far out statements like "breeding" and "partners for sex" etc. but those are NOT valid.

Some of those clubs use that exclusivity as a SELLING point, believe it or not. Some also think that their park is a retreat to be enjoyed with the spouse, and with the kids.

But they also think that their park is not to be used as a retreat FROM the spouse or family. It is a place for couples and families to get together. It is not a place of escape, to get away from the wife and kids.

I see this from both sides of the nudist park fence. I'm a member of a landed club (Cedar Waters) that does not admit singles. However, I'm also a member of non-landed clubs that admit all. It's funny, I can't get too many people from Cedar Waters to come with us to the Maine Coast Solar Bares group - and the number one complaint is "yeah but it's got a lot of single males." I can't get couples from Maine Coast to give Cedar Waters a try because "it's too conservative for us."

This proves to me that there are "different strokes for different folks." MCSB members roll their eyes and say "you go THERE?" and while there are some Cedar Waters members who belong to or go to Maine Coast, they give the same reaction.

Over our 30 years in nudism, we have seen things turn around -- 30 years ago, many parks didn't admit singles. Today the reverse is true - few will not.

If you're fortunate enough to live in an area where there are many nude recreation options, you could view a club that admits couples and families only as one that a first time visitor might feel comfortable at.

Hey - how many guys in here have wives who won't participate? If she says "yes, I'll go once (thinking "he'll get this out of his system") wouldn't you seek out a club where there's a balance? You only have ONE chance to make a first impression - so?

I don't think that all of nudism should be restricted - but the handful of clubs that do have those restrictions actually provide a gateway to nudism -- particularly for the couple where the wife/girlfriend is reluctant.

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
... Have you tried any other resorts?

-Mark

Yes I have. And the ones that I went to never even asked if I was single, partnered, civil unioned, married or in any sort of relationship.

Funny, but when you look at the most successful (largest, most modern, offering the most features, etc) resorts they are the ones that don't have the gender balancing issues. I believe that says something rather profound.

While I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV I seriously question if this sex discrimination is even legal.

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 07:44 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:
....and I'm not sure exactly at what point it breaks down, but somewhere a threshold is reached when testosterone takes over in the pool area and combined with beer....the ladies cease to feel at ease, the relaxation ends...

------------------------------------------------
Maybe it's time to eliminate the beer and not the singles. I for one have never had a beer at a nudist venue and it hasn't hampered my having a good time.

Naturist Mark

09-04-2007, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
Maybe it's time to eliminate the beer and not the singles. I for one have never had a beer at a nudist venue and it hasn't hampered my having a good time.

You may be onto something there. Alcohol seems to be a factor in the majority of problems at nudist parks. Although I imagine you can say the same about any campground or resort.

usuallylurk

09-04-2007, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by NudeTopher

Yes I have. And the ones that I went to never even asked if I was single, partnered, civil unioned, married or in any sort of relationship.

Funny, but when you look at the most successful (largest, most modern, offering the most features, etc) resorts they are the ones that don't have the gender balancing issues. I believe that says something rather profound.

What it says is that it's all about the money. On the other hand, many cooperative clubs aren't in it for the money or to make a profit. They're in it to, as I said, provide leisure to their members.

While I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV I seriously question if this sex discrimination is even legal.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have studied nudist history and have noticed that in 30 years' time, no one has successfully sued a club over this issue.

But I do know that if a judge were to determine if discrimination has occurred, he/she would probably look at membership diversity and not that of those who weren't let in. This is probably why there's never been a suit.

And to quote an earlier post - which probably is unworthy of a response but I will anyway -

"Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding! "

This shows ignorance. It lends nothing to the discussion. No, check that - nothing POSITIVE to it. But if making a comment makes you feel better, then, OK. But you're better than that.

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by usuallylurk:
And to quote an earlier post - which probably is unworthy of a response but I will anyway -

"Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding! "

This shows ignorance. It lends nothing to the discussion. No, check that - nothing POSITIVE to it. But if making a comment makes you feel better, then, OK. But you're better than that.

I'm so glad that you are here to be the arbiter of what enhances or detracts from discussions.

NudeTopher

09-04-2007, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by usuallylurk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher

Yes I have. And the ones that I went to never even asked if I was single, partnered, civil unioned, married or in any sort of relationship.

Funny, but when you look at the most successful (largest, most modern, offering the most features, etc) resorts they are the ones that don't have the gender balancing issues. I believe that says something rather profound.

What it says is that it's all about the money. On the other hand, many cooperative clubs aren't in it for the money or to make a profit. They're in it to, as I said, provide leisure to their members.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ability to operate a resort at a profit clearly illustrates that the owner/management understands what people want and caters to meeting those needs. People vote with their wallets and being a success shows that they have the vote.

Unless of course, you don't believe that economics adds anything to the discussion.

Naturist Mark

09-04-2007, 08:23 PM

The ability to operate a resort at a profit clearly illustrates that the owner/management understands what people want and caters to meeting those needs. People vote with their wallets and being a success shows that they have the vote.

Unless of course, you don't believe that economics adds anything to the discussion.

You'd think that letting unrestricted single male admittance would be good economics ... but an owner must also consider what it takes to keep their most active visitors happy - their membership.

But ... if every decision was simply on bringing in the most dollars ... you'd see the clubs throwing their gates open to swinger events ... which brings up rumors of recent trends at Caliente and Paradise Lakes ...

bikerboy

09-04-2007, 08:28 PM

I agree with DR.SurferDude. It is a very hard thing for single males at clubs. However, there are ways clubs can go around to make it easier. One club limited single males by the day or membership. Because of this, I was not able to participate at all. The quota was met. However, I was in college at the time, and to try and get a younger crowd at the club, they opened it up for single college students with no quota. This seemed to work well as just as many females were intrigued and joined as did the males.

You just have to be patient and everything will work out in the end. As for now, if you want to go to a club on a holiday weekend, make sure you RSVP well in advance so that you can have a spot saved just for you. That is my thoughts anyways. Take it or leave it.

usuallylurk

09-04-2007, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
[
Unless of course, you don't believe that economics adds anything to the discussion.

No, it certainly does. However, if you understand the operation of nudist clubs in this country, you will know several things about them.

One, many are cooperatively run clubs. Some of these are the oldest, and have the longest legacy of any groups and these were the "founding clubs" of nudism in this country. They are owned and operated by their members. They are run strictly by their members for the enjoyment of their members.

They are not in it to turn a profit. These are the clubs that generally have restrictive admissions policies. They only need to operate in the black, and if they find themselves not doing so, will just assess themselves higher dues. Of course, since the land for some of these was acquired 75 years ago, the infrastructure was built and paid for a long time ago, and they're not carrying any large bank notes.

And they don't want to become the new, "super clubs" that you find in Florida -- which are proprietary and MUST turn a profit beyond a marginal one. Some may have commercial obligations to meet.

The older clubs have different business models than the newer clubs.

So - yes, economics plays into it, but so does the business model of operation.

A long-standing co-op club may very well be catering to its members by having restrictive admission policies.

Some of those co-ops are the ONLY clubs that have survived in major metropolitan areas. But then again, their "business model" is to do what the members want, because they're voting not only with their wallets but with their ownership shares. They own it, they are not in it for the money, and they determine and pay for what they want.

A few years back, someone said he (as a single) tried to visit a certain cooperative club. He was told that singles must make their first visit on a weekend. He then asked me "how do they stay in business?"

They stay "in business" because they're not a business. They were not out to make the cash register ring, but to continue operation as a nudist community.

If you don't understand why a club has the policy of couples/families/quotas, then you probably don't understand the way some clubs run (and prosper). I am thinking of six or seven co-ops, of which three are over 75 years old, and they're not hurting.

Which is why I stand by my response to your "breeding" comment as being one founded in ignorance. You may have been turned away at the gate at one or more restricted clubs and the comment may make you feel a little better, but I take it for what it is - a foundless, vicious, untrue charge.

NudeTopher

09-05-2007, 04:15 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by usuallylurk:

If you don't understand why a club has the policy of couples/families/quotas, then you probably don't understand the way some clubs run (and prosper). I am thinking of six or seven co-ops, of which three are over 75 years old, and they're not hurting.

QUOTE]

Maybe they are hurting. Maybe they are not. It depends on how you measure "hurting". There have been posts on this website and other sites about the age of nudist club members, the lack of (new) younger members, and ways to attract younger members.

Clubs that have an average age someplace between 60 and death are hurting. How will they survive without new, younger members taking the place of the older members as they die off? Younger nudists are not attracted to places that may be described with terms like "rustic" they are more attracted to places with new, modern, and varied facilities such as Laguna Del Sol.

Clubs that specialize in a lifestyle that revolves around lounge chairs at a pool, vollyball, and a shuffleboard court can not and will not attract young nudists. Without attracting young nudists these clubs won't survive. So yes, economics matter.

NudeTopher

09-05-2007, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The ability to operate a resort at a profit clearly illustrates that the owner/management understands what people want and caters to meeting those needs. People vote with their wallets and being a success shows that they have the vote.

Unless of course, you don't believe that economics adds anything to the discussion.

You'd think that letting unrestricted single male admittance would be good economics ... but an owner must also consider what it takes to keep their most active visitors happy - their membership.

But ... if every decision was simply on bringing in the most dollars ... you'd see the clubs throwing their gates open to swinger events ... which brings up rumors of recent trends at Caliente and Paradise Lakes ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the first place, I'm not so sure we should be even commmenting on rumors. Until the rumors are confirmed or dispelled there is really nothing that can be said.

You might want to look at the business model of a resort like Laguna Del Sol (http://www.lagunadelsol.com)since they are quite successful, don't discriminate against single men (or women) and are in a sustained growth mode. In fact, they encourage singles and have a singles group called "Sun Singles".

usuallylurk

09-05-2007, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
[Maybe they are hurting. Maybe they are not. It depends on how you measure "hurting". There have been posts on this website and other sites about the age of nudist club members, the lack of (new) younger members, and ways to attract younger members.

Clubs that have an average age someplace between 60 and death are hurting. How will they survive without new, younger members taking the place of the older members as they die off? Younger nudists are not attracted to places that may be described with terms like "rustic" they are more attracted to places with new, modern, and varied facilities such as Laguna Del Sol.

This is a shift in the discussion topic - that's a different topic entirely, but by "hurting" , these clubs aren't necessarily suffering but they are finally recognizing the situation that they're in, and are taking steps to correct it.

Clubs that specialize in a lifestyle that revolves around lounge chairs at a pool, vollyball, and a shuffleboard court can not and will not attract young nudists. Without attracting young nudists these clubs won't survive. So yes, economics matter.

Getting back to the original topic (gender balance) -- a predominately male club that requires ongoing capital may not survive, either.

Co-op clubs have become aware of their plight -- but it isn't just co-op clubs. If you go to a lot of the Florida super clubs, you'll notice what the crowd is - a large over-50 segment.

Way back when - 30 years ago - when my wife and I first got into nudism, most clubs had quotas in place, and severely restricted single male admission.

And you know what? The clubs were FLUSH with people in their 20s and 30s, and people who had kids. We would go to Pine Tree for a family vacation and the place was full of families and kids. Even the old Birch Acres, which was an "open gate" park, had scores of younger folks.

As time went on, the nudist industry -- its marketing organizations -- chose to target the crowd that has the money, and in the process forgot about their future.

The lack of nudist parks near major metropolitan areas -- caused by skyrocketing real estate values -- has also caused the decline.

I believe the number one problem facing nudism is not "how to handle singles" or "how to get more younger people."

The biggest problem is "how do you get more women involved" -- be they single OR married/attached. How many guys in here say "my wife won't go" ???? Solve that situation, you will see nudism grow explosively.

AANR and other groups have been trying to figure that one out for decades, because it's the distaff half of a couple that usually balks at going to a nudist facility.

oldbob

09-05-2007, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by usuallylurk:

I believe the number one problem facing nudism is not "how to handle singles" or "how to get more younger people."

The biggest problem is "how do you get more women involved" -- be they single OR married/attached. How many guys in here say "my wife won't go" ???? Solve that situation, you will see nudism grow explosively.

AANR and other groups have been trying to figure that one out for decades, because it's the distaff half of a couple that usually balks at going to a nudist facility.

I told my wife, before we were married, that I am a nudist. She was interested in trying it but I think that me already being a member of a landed club made it much easier for her to agree to try it. Since it seems that the majority of women become nudists because of the man in their lives, fewer women would be reluctant to try it if the man is able to describe nudism from his personal experience.

Bob

riptidenj

09-05-2007, 07:50 PM

Getting back to the original topic, I oppose
quotas. Not being a lawyer, I cannot comment as
to whether or not clothess free resorts come under public accomodation laws, I suspect it will be on a state by state basis. As a businessman I note there is a big difference between an organization that just wants to break
even and reinvests whatever profits it makes in itself and the more traditional profit model, and as some of the board members have pointed out some clubs are coops that are probably quite
content to have income equal expenses.
My personal observation is that a club that is not singles friendly will not be a friendly place, period. One couple I know visited a much
advertised resort that is not singles friendly, they found the people there to be civil and little more, they are not going back.
I also like to cite a letter I saw in the AANR
Bulletin a while back in which the letter writer
noted that if he lived in a state in which the
self appointed nudist establishment slammed the
door in his face because he was single, they better not complain when they ran into legal or
political challenges and he thumbed his nose at them.

MJ_KC

09-05-2007, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by riptidenj:
My personal observation is that a club that is not singles friendly will not be a friendly place, period.

This is my position as well. If they are ever unfriendly to me, they missed their one chance.

wiz

09-06-2007, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
Maybe it's time to eliminate the beer and not the singles. I for one have never had a beer at a nudist venue and it hasn't hampered my having a good time.

You may be onto something there. Alcohol seems to be a factor in the majority of problems at nudist parks. Although I imagine you can say the same about any campground or resort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As one that abstains from alcohol I have to say that this is an issue wherever you go. If I ever found myself in a position of running a camp ground the first order of business would be the restriction of the public consumption of alcohol. It wouldn't matter if it was clothed or not. Probably doom the business but then again it wouldn't be a problem finding people feed up with the environments that some camp ground present.

In any event people should really be judged based on their interaction with others.

Dave

usuallylurk

09-06-2007, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by wiz:
As one that abstains from alcohol I have to say that this is an issue wherever you go. If I ever found myself in a position of running a camp ground the first order of business would be the restriction of the public consumption of alcohol. It wouldn't matter if it was clothed or not. Probably doom the business but then again it wouldn't be a problem finding people feed up with the environments that some camp ground present.

In any event people should really be judged based on their interaction with others.

Dave

The landed club I belong to - Cedar Waters Village - does not permit alcohol on its grounds. It's likely the last nudist club in the country that has that rule in effect.

http://www.nhnude.com

It works. The business is not built around booze. It's built around nudism.

We also belong to several non-landed groups where alcohol is permitted, and it's never been a problem that I've seen. Then again, a Sunday afternoon swim doesn't lend itself as an opportunity to get blasted.

Fuzzy Nuts

09-06-2007, 09:28 AM

Any group that did not allow alcohol would not find me a member. I am not a heavy drinker by any means but do enjoy a rum and coke at cocktail hour and some wine with my evening meal. Any group that bans alcohol is as narrow-minded as a group that bans nudity because the occaisional nudist acts out.

Most people who enjoy some alcohol do not misuse it.

usuallylurk

09-06-2007, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Fuzzy Nuts:
Any group that did not allow alcohol would not find me a member. I am not a heavy drinker by any means but do enjoy a rum and coke at cocktail hour and some wine with my evening meal. Any group that bans alcohol is as narrow-minded as a group that bans nudity because the occaisional nudist acts out.

Most people who enjoy some alcohol do not misuse it.

I agree that most who consume and enjoy alcohol don't abuse it. I, too, am a social drinker, but I respect the owners' rules and when I am at Cedar Waters, I don't have a drink.

It's a rule I can live with. If you cannot, don't go to Cedar Waters.

wiz

09-06-2007, 08:26 PM

I'm mostly concerned with public consumption, not really a total ban. Maybe I'm overly sensitive but I've had bad experiences with people that get liquored up. There certainly is a difference between casual drinking and going over board.

At this point I really don't have to worry to much about it because I don't have a bank account that would support buying land for a nudist camp much less an established one. Yes I've looked into it, the whole thing brings tears to ones eyes.

Dave

Ken Palmer

09-06-2007, 09:42 PM

Hey Naturist Mark. You have hit this one right on the nose! As a single male myself, it is hard for me to say this. But it is indeed the truth of the matter. Traditionally, females have always been uncomfortable in the nude among predominantly male crowds for the obvious reasons of being gawked at. And of course, there is the body appearance issue. A lot of women may feel that they do not have a body that they are comfortable with being undressed in front of anyone for that matter. This may include other females! But as has been mentioned, men tend to generally feel more comfortable nude in social setings because we are not as body conscious as women. I hope this will not anger the ladies here on the group by making this statement. Overall, this has been a complicated problem in regards to nudism as long as I can remember. In regards to actual quotas, it is a hard question to answer in the poll. But I am like Naturist Mark in the fact that I do understand why they contemplate them at clubs and resorts. And as mentioned, some clubs go as far as to exclude single men from entering their clubs. I don't know how they handle the subject of single females though.

Ken Palmer

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

That may seem the case, but the real problem is that on the whole women are more reluctant to participate in nude recreation than men. If you don't believe me go to your nearest nude beach and take a survey. Many avid female nudists had to be persuaded and cajoled by a friend, husband or boyfriend the first time. Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NudeTopher

09-07-2007, 04:23 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by usuallylurk:

The landed club I belong to - Cedar Waters Village - does not permit alcohol on its grounds. It's likely the last nudist club in the country that has that rule in effect.

http://www.nhnude.com

It works. The business is not built around booze. It's built around nudism.
QUOTE]

After looking at the website I really wonder about Cedar Water' lack of affiliations. I have always heard that you should go to a nudist venue that is a member of TNS, AANR, or both. The website clearly states that not only does it not belong to either of those nudist organizations, it doesn't belong to any nudist organization.

While I have a glass of wine with dinner perhaps one night a week, not being able to have alcohol certainly wouldn't bother me one way or the other. But, I wonder about this places long term sustainability. (Yes, I realize that they have been in business since 1950 - but as the commercial says "past performance is no indication of future returns.)

Many, if not most, younger nudists would not care to visit Cedar Waters. Among other things are the ban of alcohol, the primitive cabins that are 12' x 16' and don't even have bathrooms, the place isn't wi-fi enabled and the activities seem to revolve around sunning on the lawn and beach and being somewhat more sedentary than younger nudists would enjoy.

But, since they don't allow single nudists and don't have either the facility or activities that younger nudists enjoy I really believe that their long range sustainability isn't that secure. They will no doubt be forced to evolve or perish as their current membership declines through natural attrition.

usuallylurk

09-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by NudeTopher
After looking at the website I really wonder about Cedar Water' lack of affiliations. I have always heard that you should go to a nudist venue that is a member of TNS, AANR, or both. The website clearly states that not only does it not belong to either of those nudist organizations, it doesn't belong to any nudist organization.

Yes, the organizations have told you that you should affiliate with their organization. Cedar Waters *was* affiliated with ASA (the previous name of AANR) until 1961. They have not been for the last 46 years, by their own choice. AANR would *love* to have them in their fold, because there is no other nudist park in New Hampshire, or, at this time, Maine.

There is an *indirect* affiliation with AANR - a non-landed group called the Sherwood Forest Club. It has its "base" in Maine, but that is the AANR "option" for those who want to join AANR. It is the owners' prerogative not to affiliate, but they do allow Sherwood to recruit members and to hold their annual meeting there. Sherwood holds a few winter gatherings as well.

Many of today's clubs have had off- and on- affiliations with ASA/AANR over the years, for a variety of reasons.

While I have a glass of wine with dinner perhaps one night a week, not being able to have alcohol certainly wouldn't bother me one way or the other. But, I wonder about this places long term sustainability. (Yes, I realize that they have been in business since 1950 - but as the commercial says "past performance is no indication of future returns.)

You want to put a trailer up at CW, or purchase a cottage? Get in line. The seasonal sites -- which is where the club draws its revenue from - are nearly sold out.

It's expanding to meet the needs.

Many, if not most, younger nudists would not care to visit Cedar Waters. Among other things are the ban of alcohol, the primitive cabins that are 12' x 16' and don't even have bathrooms, the place isn't wi-fi enabled and the activities seem to revolve around sunning on the lawn and beach and being somewhat more sedentary than younger nudists would enjoy.

First of all, Cedar Waters does have wi-fi, and has had for three years, just so you know.

Look at the website again. There's volleyball and tennis. There are hiking trails. There's a lake for swimming. Sailing. And there are things that cater to the more sedentary people among us.

As far as the facilities are concerned, they're pretty good - and comparable to what you would find in a nudist park in New England. Is it Cypress Cove or Paradise Lakes? No. But can it be fairly and favorably compared to other New England parks? Yes.

Finally - the couples/families rule is actually a selling point. The reason couples flock to Cedar Waters is for what it is -- and what it is NOT. The owners are very straightforward, and if you're looking for a party, it's not going to be there.

But there is a sizable market for their flavor of nudism. It may not be to YOUR liking, but it is to others'.

But, since they don't allow single nudists and don't have either the facility or activities that younger nudists enjoy I really believe that their long range sustainability isn't that secure. They will no doubt be forced to evolve or perish as their current membership declines through natural attrition.

There are enough younger people coming in to make up for the "attrition". The owners aren't planning to sell out any time soon. Their son - who is in his mid-20s, is being groomed to take over the park's operation when the time comes.

garbo

09-07-2007, 12:50 PM

I wonder if we are not over-analyzing this issue a little! Clearly, private club owners can create whatever restrictions they wish, but who really cares? Most guys probably could care less and most women undoubtedly feel the same. This changes if there is innoppropriate behavior of course, but assuming everyone plays by the rules, it should not matter. Nudist clubs are not generally known for pick up behavior. I think most nudist women are confident, self assured, in-control folks who are not necessarily concerned about the male/female imbalance. They are not there to impress the guys anyway! When I asked my girlfriend what her thoughts were on this subject, she said it did not matter if the balance was even or not. She goes to relax and enjoy herself. I tend to agree and wish the club owners would stop making this an issue!

usuallylurk

09-08-2007, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by garbo:
I wonder if we are not over-analyzing this issue a little! Clearly, private club owners can create whatever restrictions they wish, but who really cares? Most guys probably could care less and most women undoubtedly feel the same. This changes if there is innoppropriate behavior of course, but assuming everyone plays by the rules, it should not matter. Nudist clubs are not generally known for pick up behavior. I think most nudist women are confident, self assured, in-control folks who are not necessarily concerned about the male/female imbalance. They are not there to impress the guys anyway! When I asked my girlfriend what her thoughts were on this subject, she said it did not matter if the balance was even or not. She goes to relax and enjoy herself. I tend to agree and wish the club owners would stop making this an issue!

It matters to a lot of women, garbo. If you went to one of the parks where restrictions are in place, and happened to talk to a few of them at those places, you may get a decidedly different answer than the one your girlfriend gave you.

RichNH

09-09-2007, 04:24 AM

I don't belong to any clubs and I was sorry to see several years ago that Ceder Waters did not allow single members. Be that as it may, I can tell you that IF my wife were a nudist, I'd join Ceder Waters in a heart beat. I know that for most of you it looks likes a boring place. But us bores need places to decompress too... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

Hey, what can you expect from a guy who thinks that the ultimate in a family vacation is camping in a state park somewhere???

Also, I'd like to pose this: Perhaps the "graying" of nudist organizations isn't the bad thing everyone thinks it is. I say that because of two observations 1) we all (hopefully) get old and 2) our tastes, preferences, likes/dislikes, etc change over time. I know that nudism in general was much more family oriented back in the 70's and earlier, but then again the entire society was more family oriented back in the 70's and earlier. So perhaps that has something to do with it too.

Rich

PS: Usuallylurk, thanks for the explanation you entered on 9/4/07 9:02PM. That clarified several concepts for me.

usuallylurk

09-09-2007, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by RichNH:
PS: Usuallylurk, thanks for the explanation you entered on 9/4/07 9:02PM. That clarified several concepts for me.

Yes -- Cedar Waters is not a co-op, it is privately owned and operated. The founders have passed on, and their son and daughter-in-law (and grandson) now operate it.

Rich, my understanding here is that your wife will have no part of it. But -- let me ask you this -- and you can answer honestly -- if your wife said "OK, honey, I'll try it once" or "OK I'll take the tour clothed" --

Wouldn't you do it at Cedar Waters? People say that this is an "unfair" question, but I remind them that they only have one chance to make a first impression -- and given that one chance - based on what you've heard...

And yes, it is a good place to decompress. That's why we go THERE.

If possible, you should just ask her to take the tour on a nice Saturday or Sunday afternoon. You can remain clothed for the tour -- one of the owners will give you a brochure, take you through the facility, and snswer any questions you and your wife may have. Whoever takes you through will likely be clothed, too.

You do not have to be nude or disrobe for the tour. There is no "hazing" ritual.

Hope to see you there. E-mail me if you plan on going.