Cellphone cameras in locker rooms

[Gary Naturist]

I read a newspaper report this morning that says that cellphones with integrated cameras are being used to photo people who are nude in locker rooms. The photos are then uploaded to the Internet.

It all started with security cameras. If you are outdoors in an urban area, you may be under surveillance. Now, if you are in a locker room, you may be under surveillance.

Most people will be freaked out by this, but I, as a nudist, would not. Because of my involvement in nudism, I am not ashamed of my body, and don't feel the need to hide it from the world.

I don't like the loss of privacy that results from surveillance and, now, cellphone cameras. But, recognizing that this loss is permanent, I'll have to adapt, and the adaption will be easier for me than for non-nudists.

As an analogy, if and when devices become available that can identify when people are lying, the easiest way to adapt will be to always tell the truth.

Now that everyone may be under scrutiny from personal cameras, the easiest way to adapt will be not to be concerned about being photographed.

If you see a nude, honest person, that'll be me.

Gary

[Gary Naturist]

I read a newspaper report this morning that says that cellphones with integrated cameras are being used to photo people who are nude in locker rooms. The photos are then uploaded to the Internet.

It all started with security cameras. If you are outdoors in an urban area, you may be under surveillance. Now, if you are in a locker room, you may be under surveillance.

Most people will be freaked out by this, but I, as a nudist, would not. Because of my involvement in nudism, I am not ashamed of my body, and don't feel the need to hide it from the world.

I don't like the loss of privacy that results from surveillance and, now, cellphone cameras. But, recognizing that this loss is permanent, I'll have to adapt, and the adaption will be easier for me than for non-nudists.

As an analogy, if and when devices become available that can identify when people are lying, the easiest way to adapt will be to always tell the truth.

Now that everyone may be under scrutiny from personal cameras, the easiest way to adapt will be not to be concerned about being photographed.

If you see a nude, honest person, that'll be me.

Gary

[nudejosh123]

I am also not going to let the cell phone cameras win by covering up in the locker room. If I get photographed changing so be it. I am also not going to be ashamed of who and what I am.

[Duneman]

I agree with you guys. It may not be in order, or very polite, but I feel I have nothing to be ashamed of, and am not doing anything wrong!

Actually I've long stopped worrying about being photographed without my permission.
A couple of yrs ago at Blacks Beach, a couple of tourists actually video taped me, as I was walking naked to the water!? I was going to speak to them, but then thought what's the point!

I've also been photographed at Orient Beach, despite security guards being around.

I think it would be totally different if you were behaving inappropriately in a nude setting, and you were photographed. Serves you right!!

[greensunshine]

Here is my stand on cameras being used more freely...

If I have something to really hide other than a gift for that special someone for a special occasion, I shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

In addition, we as citizens have a lot to be thankful for with these devices. In some areas...they are of great use in detering crime that has been allowed to go on way to long...such as prostitution and drug deals...so if that is what it is gonna take to make my community safer, I welcome them even more so, after all with all the budget cuts in so many communities, if this helps...go for it /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Regarding locker rooms...there is always gonna be at least one bad apple somewhere /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[TXK NUDE]

When cameras were first put on cell phones I told my wife that there would be trouble...and sure enough, there has been. While I'm not ashamed of my body, I do mind someone sneaking into a place where I am naked or not, and taking my picture without my permission. That is an invasion of privacy, and to my knowledge, privacy is still protected under the constitution! I would definitely feel that way even more so if my CHILDREN were photographed at our resort! Pedophilia is a huge problem in America, and these cameras are just the thing pedophiles want to capture pictures of their young prey, or to sell to other pedos over the internet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Croydon]

I am surprise at some of you who think it is ok for someone to bring a camera in room and take pictures of ppl w/o permission to post on internet. You actually don't have a problem with that? even if it was done to you?

To do such thing is wrong unethical. People in locker room have a right to their privacy and a right to disrobe or shower w/o fearing someone has a camera and is taking pictures. It has NOTHINNG to do with body shame, nudism, loving your body or hating it. It has everything to do with right or privacy and consent.

Do you know how many women that are violated daily b/c pics r being taken of them w/o their knowledge. Such thing as this is a violation of privacy and can leave someone very emotionally damage.

Do you know the lives and careers that can be ruinend for stupid stuff like this. I will be attending law school next fall and if some pictures like that were posted online, that could be end of my career as someeone can report me to the BAR.

Whether you are comfortable w/ your body or not, having something like that done w/o your consent can do a lot of harm

[shãybare]

I definitely have to strongly side with TXK NUDE and Croydon on this issue. Surveillance cameras in public places don't bother me but having anybody that wants to to be able to take pictures in very private areas do. Although I'm not ashamed of my body, I do not want my picture taken with out my permission and uploaded on the internet. Grennsunshine mentioned about there always being one bad apple out there somewheres. Kids are not always bad apples but they are immature and don't think about ramifications of their actions. Think about that for awhile. Then, as has been mentioned, there are lots of paedophiles out there whose ability to exploit our children have been made alot eaiser.
This issue has nothing at all to do with body acceptance. It has everything to do with invasion of privacy. The way some of you talk, you would seem to have no problem with Joe Blow or whoever coming in off the street into your home and taking pictures of you in the bath, bedroom or where ever. Afterall, if you are proud of your body and doing nothing wrong...

[missouriboy]

I agree with Croydon (except the part about fretting about the BAR. Why would the BAR care about just changing in a locker room?). Except for a 'face in the crowd' type of shot, I wouldn't want MY picture, clothed or not, put on the internet unless it was by MY own choice. I feel taking this choice away from any individual is an invasion of privacy.

OTOH, I have no problem with surveillance cameras as long as the images are retained only when wrongdoing actually occurs.

[Trailscout]

I don't buy the argument that people who want privacy can be presumed to be doing something that is wrong and needs to be exposed and posted on the Internet.

Nor do I believe that if you are in a public setting, that gives the photographer the right to sell a recognizeable image of you to whomever wants to buy your image without your permission and without compensation. There are already laws on the books against such behavior.

[Gary Naturist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by greensunshine:
Here is my stand on cameras being used more freely...

If I have something to really hide ... I shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you are agreeing to accept surveillance anywhere, anytime, there is a danger that you will lose the right to decide on your own actions. Big Brother is watching you, and he may have different views on what is appropriate behavior, and may impose them on you.

Gary

[Frank R]

When Hill Country Nudist had their annual boat trip to Hippy Hollow, everyone had to choose what color wrist band they wanted - Green, anyone could take a picture of you whenever they wanted, Yellow - ask before taking any pictures and Red, no pictures. I only saw one person on the boat with a Red band, maybe 25% had Yellow and the rest were all Green.
Based on this very small and not statistically valid sample, you could say that about 75% of nudist do not care if they are photographed or not. However, in my opinion, unless permission has been expressly given (i.e.- like the Green wrist band), a person should always be asked first.

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't buy the argument that people who want privacy can be presumed to be doing something that is wrong and needs to be exposed and posted on the Internet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you here. If you assume the government is an entirely benevolent entity and that people will not care about your private behavior and that honest information won't be used dishonestly, then privacy is irrelevent. We must remember that surveylance is NEVER a two way street, most of the time you never know to what purpose it is being put. Even "harmless" surveylance for public safety purposes could as easily be used for nefarious purposes.

Government is not benevolent and may act to promote or obstruct lifestyles or points of view. Durng the 50s, 60s and 70s, the civil rights and antiwar movements were heavily surveyled with an eye to creating "enemies" lists and seeking out scandals whith which to discredit activists. Thousands of people were marked for immediate pickup in the event of a political or military crisis.

People who find out you are something they don't like may seek to destroy you. There's a reason so many people live in the closet about diffrent aspect of their lives. Being outed can lead to loss of their livelihood, their children and even, in extreme caes, their lives.

Imagine Joe McCarthy with modern technology at this disposal. Imagine Hitler. Imagine Hoover or Nixon effortlessly compiling dossiers on political enemies and competing politicians that took hundreds of man-hours of skilled labor back then.

Hasn't anyone read or seen Orwell's 1984?

Even if they aren't "outed" they may find themselves denied promotion, employment or even the subject of annonymous abuse and they may NEVER know what or who or why. The puritan boss who sees that nude photo of you on the internet can easily nix your future at his firm and any you might transfer to, without your knowledge. The sexual predator boss can as easily decide your picture means you are an easy target. The Social worker who sees it could decide you are a threat to your children. And on and on.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Dsn't have to be nudism. It could be ANY trait someone, somewhere doesn't like and it could be used without your knowledge and without any opportunity to respond.

Not to mention businesses using surveylance to get a competitive edge. Or common criminals; blackmailers, identity theives, sexual predators, kidnappers. I've met people on bulletin boards I wouldn't want to know my identity or whereabouts. How would you feel about somebody tracking your 12 y.o. child?

Let me suggest to people who don't value their privacy that they post a copy of their driver's licence on the web along with their social security number and see what happens.

We need privacy because there are evil people who will put honest information to evil ends.

[Fresh Air]

It is unethical, but it's important to remember a few things. The pictures (at least currently) will turn out kind of crapy. Also, nobody will blame anyone for being that kind of victim. We all live in the same society and hopefully would be smart and understanding enough to see the difference between voluntary and involutnary nude photography. Case in point, I don't think you will get dis-bared or kicked out of law school for something which you had no control over and was legal. If you do, you can always go to court /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fresh Air

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nor do I believe that if you are in a public setting, that gives the photographer the right to sell a recognizeable image of you to whomever wants to buy your image without your permission and without compensation. There are already laws on the books against such behavior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No laws like that in the US to my knowledge. While your image may not be used for commercial purposes without your permission, it can be used for journalistic purposes. Once you are in a public setting you may just end up on the front page of the newspaper with nothing to say about it.

Another loophole is that photos that are taken and not used for commercial purposes nor used for journalistic purposes, but rather distributed freely on the net are STILL treated like journalistic photos.

It is illegal to take photos without permission where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. That includes private residences, locker rooms, changing rooms, rest rooms, private clubs and any business where there is a "no cameras" rule.

Leave your living room curtain open and you've lost that "reasonable expectation". You now fall under the "public" rules for use. Ditto if you knew the camera was there and allowed it to be used. Unless you have an enforcable promise otherwise, you've just gone public.

It's a rough world out there, as Paris Hilton just found out.

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think you will get dis-barred or kicked out of law school for something which you had no control over and was legal. If you do, you can always go to court <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But if you happen to be attending law school at Liberty University or Bob Jones U....

Or if you are an employee who just isn't getting that promotion and you really don't know why....

Or if you've suddenly started getting heavy breathing calls late at night and someone left a copy of the photo on your desk with sexually explicit suggestions attached....

Or the the picture of your nude children frolicing with you at the private Shady Acres nudist resort gets some social worker's shorts all bound up and the next thing you know they're kncocking on your door to take custody of your kids from you pending the hearing....

Legal action isn't always possible. Even when it is possible, it just means you've been hurt already and are just trying to recover.

I'm not suggesting we should hide in the closet. I'm suggesting that it is a rough world with bad people in it. Coming out of the nudist closet requires a thick skin and a degree of boldness that not everyone has. Those people who don't need the protection of privacy and should have it.

So should the non-nudists who expect privacy in the locker room and other enclosed areas. The fear of the cell phone camera is a very large part of why nude showers are now forbidden in many high schools today. This obstructs the only experince with social nudity many children will ever have and hurts the future of nudism.

[wannabenaked2001]

I guess I don't have a problem with being potographed, reqardless of my state of un-dress. The problem I would have (if this makes any sense) is that the photographer is being sneaky. I mean, if someone asks me for some change for the phone or a vending machine, yea, sure, no problem. But if someone tries to "take" my change, they have crossed the line!

[hw]

aunaturelone....Great-a-riffic Posts! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It is too bad we have people who would use innocent photos as fodder to ruin other people's lives! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
I suppose we should all be ever vigilant for Big Brother and perverts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Bob S.]

I agree with Croydon on this.
I would have a serious problem if someone took my picture while I was in a locker room. Not because I am not comfortable being naked or having others see me naked, but because I like to control who sees me naked and when they see me naked.

In a public place, I have no expectation that I wil not get into a picture. It is something that I have learned to live with. I do care what would possibly be done with the picture. If the person who takes it is going to go back home and put it in their oewm personal collection, so be it. Basically, ignorance is bliss. However, if the person intents to make it public, then I have a problem with it, especially if it is in a negative (to me) way. If someone were to take my picture (clothed or naked) and put it on the Dean for President website as a supporter, I would have a problem with that.

I do have a couple of other points to make:

"Pedophilia is a huge problem in America"

Pedophilia is a problem, but I don't think it is as big as the media makes it out to be. And it is a very preventable crime in most of the stranger and close friends cases. All it will take is more parental vigilance and responsibility. And this is what I feel is missing in a lot of society.

Remember, about 80% of the sexual abuse of children are from family members or friends. The family member abuse is the hardest to prevent, but the friend abuse is much easier to prevent. I would say that about 60% of all abuse can be prevented.

Bob S.

[florida-david]

i would not care too much if someone took my picture, but i would be very upset if someone took a nude picture of my kids in such an environment without my permission. that is realllly sleezy and i would think illegal as well. i don't like the idea of mini-cameras (wether on a phone or not) being used to capture people without their knowledge.

[nudejosh123]

On another note: can't cellular phones just be phones? I am not interested in them being PDAs, cameras, etc.

The only thing that needs to be installed on these phones is a device that gives its user an electronic shock if used inappropriately.

[WNYjoe]

Having skimmed the other replies, here are my thoughts. I was at a nudist camp on the East Coast of the US in May. Every other place I have been has some kind of official or "semi-official" pollicies regarding open use of cameras. This one had already seen the need to specifically state that camera phones are equally not acceptable.
I had no problem with the rule. I have been a practising nudist officially for about 5 years. I don't blink an eye at being in a picture. It is part of the lifestyle, and life goes on. BUT I am cautious about when a picture might be used elsewhere. It all goes back to intent. I don't want my picture plastered all over porn sites, but a legitimate nudist site is fine.
Plus, the pose dictates a little bit. 3 friends sitting nude on a blanket having a picnic is NOT erotic. But not knowing that someone else is unknowingly taking pictures and trying to pass them off that way is disconcerting. And it really does not matter whether it is an obvious camera, a concealed security camera, or a cell phone camera.

Ben Franklin said: "Those who would trade LIBERTY for SECURITY deserve neither."
Now, that is a thread all of it's own!!!

[NakedGary]

A few posts back the following was quoted:

"The fear of the cell phone camera is a very large part of why nude showers are now forbidden in many high schools today".

Forbid nude showers? I have never heard anything so ridiulous. How do you take a complete shower without being nude? Let thoes modest, shy, or ashamed of thier own bodys or of others seeing them, go about their textile and unclean way, don't ristrict use of the facilities for all.

Forbid the use of any type of cameras and all cell phones while in public, commerical or private bathrooms, locker/changing rooms, or showers.

Well that can't be solidly true anyway because taking showers in high school was already a rarity before those camera phones were out on the market.

[stevenf64]

What are you talking about, When i was a kid taking showers in school was a requirment..no choice. as far as the cameras go there is always going to be something or someone who will find a way to do what they shouldnt do...

[NakedGary]

Even before highschool, going to the YMCA, or the local Elks club for swiming, it was manatory to be nude while swiming or in the area,& we never even had the slightest concern or thought about it. The local municipal swiming pools, as well as the high schools required that you showered in group showers before you entered the swiming areas or if you participated in jym or sports activity. I can never recall seeing anyone shower other than being completly nude.

Cyndiann states recently taking showers in high school was already a rarity before those camera phones were out on the market.

What has changed, to influence physical as well as procedural change to group bathroom, locker room and shower facilities, and all these modisty panels, seperators, and private stalls, as well as procedure in being nude around others. I don't think peoples bodies have changed over the years, so what's all the concern and fuss of others, and people about being seen by others nude, being ashamed of your body, or shyness and modesty in recent years?

When I was in high school, the the shower was a large open room with shower heads on three or four of the walls, and the addition was a ring open shower with 8-10 shower heads on a pedastal in the middle of the room. The urinal was two open 8 foot troughs, and the toilets were non door open partitions. There was no concern of being seen nude by others in thoes days.

Maybe todays people think naturist and nudist are different being so open with nudity. I think their outlook and experience will change when they experience government, military, or commerical facilities, or travel to Europe or most parts of the the world where unisex facilities are not uncommon and in the open.

[nudeM]

I'm not quite sure where everyone is going with this, but taking a shower after PE was a requirement. At that time, there wasn't even a thought of taking a camera into a locker room. The main purpose was to get clean so you wouldn't "stink" the rest of the day. As in the service, taking a shower after a hard days work was required as well. Sure, we had an individual who wouldn't get clean so we literally had to give him a "blanket party" and literally threw him into the shower a clean him ourselves. Believe me, we got every inch of him clean. Taking pictures in the shower room was not even thought of yet.

How sick it is for wanting to take a picture of someone else cleansing themselves off. Perverts, I say. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[NakedGary]

Ok, I won't look at you funny if you shower in textile.

Now back to the legal aspects concerning use, and exploitation of images taken covertly, consealed, or otherwise by minature image devices of clothed, partially, or nude of people in areas where privacy is expected should be of concern to everyone.

Unless specifically posted otherwise, its illegal to covertly record audio, video or image stills of anyone with out their knowledge or permission in any private, commerical, public, or government facilities, inside or outside settings, or areas such as bathrooms, locker rooms, showers or areas where one would expect privacy being partially clothed, nude, or while at the toilet, urinal, or bidet.

The availability, cost, and miniaturization of these image recording and transmitting devices can be concealed in object or devices as small as a dime, quarter, writing pen, or lipstick tube. Transmitting means can be via cell, GPS, Satellite, or WiFi world wide, via the internet, or transmitted wireless locally to recording devices or onto compact or flash cards the size of postage stamp & thickness of a credit card.

How can this ocur at your nudist resort or at clothing optional beach without your knowledge.
Easy, just be aware of strange activity, pointing, following or tracking of subjects by another nudist, textile, or unknown visitor with items such as a cell phone, PDA, Pocket PC, Laptop, or even small bags, or items like a felt tip marker or even MP3, CD, or Cassette players. Now even the gameboy and small handheld games have plug in camera devices.

If you suspect suspicious, covert, or concealed activity pointed at you or another subject, get up and move, notify the other victim , and/or descretly notify security or the office to have them challenged and pursued for breaking the rules or illegal activity.