Germany's views on Nudity

[Bob S.]

Don't ask me why I capitalized the "N" in Nudity in the subject, just go with it.

Anyway, There is an interesting site on FAZ.com (http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={F040FFD3-897B-46DF-9603-752DD6405389}&doc={383CEC56-111E-45E5-8088-8AC8442FBEFF}) that says Germany is "Undaringly bare" as its title reads.

This is not a nudist site but just a newspaper-like site.

Bob S.

[JJAGoodfella]

Geez, makes me wish I lived in a place like that, I love living in the US, but its just way too restrictive over here.

[Outlaw]

This same news clip is on Cheef's site. Since I've never been to Germany it sounds too good to be true. I believe that they do have a 'softer' (NPI) view of nudity and a firmer grip on being better about keeping theirselves in good health.

Mike

[Rex]

My second wife and I were members of the Rhein-Donau club in Perth for many years and I have a lot of German friends, some of whom go back to Germany for regular holidays.

From what they tell me, Germany and a number of other European countries really do have a relaxed attitude to public nudity.

[Rik]

Before Stu comes along and tells you that all Germans are prudes let me quote a few lines from a book called "Culture Shock, A Guide to Customs and Etiquette [in Germany]" written by a US citizen who had lived in Germany for 15 years when he wrote the book which is a guide for anyone who wants to live in Germany and covers a huge range of topics such as job-hunting, dealing with lawyers, crime and punishment, shopping - in fact anything a non-German might want to know about Germany.

On the subject of nudity the author says: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In sharp contrast to the prudery that prevailed for the first decades of the postwar period, German society is today more characterised by open displays of the body - in newspapers and magazines, in public baths, beaches and promenades, and in certain protected prostitution tolerance zones...Countless news-stands and shops prominently display magazines with nude bodies on the cover, often a whole array of them. And it's not just the sex mags that flash those nude (mainly female) bodies on their covers: even quasi-serious publications such as Stern seem to find the occasional nude on the cover a sure sales booster. The point here is, it is virtually impossible to avoid such explicit images completely if you ever venture near a news-stand or magazine rack, as those coming from more modest societies had better brace themselves for some shocks here.

That goes doubly for public beaches, baths, parks or river bank stretches where full nudity in its live presentation is not at all unusual. Whereas just a few decades ago, this would have been considered scandalous in Germany, today it's routine. What is not routine, and is in fact judged rather harshly, is staring at those nude bodies. And be strongly advised - just because some sunbathers are fully stripped down, this does not mean that they are advertising their availability or even looking for companionship. Approaching someone in solitary sunbathing is considered hughly offensive, and can earn a sharp reproach from everyone around.

In winter, the scene of mixed public nudity shifts to the public sauna, where stripping down to essentials is not only optional, but required. Should you feel squeamish about sitting around in the nude sweating with members of the opposite sex, stay out of public saunas. The modest practice of wearing swimming briefs into the sauna, something that many Asians and Americans seem to favour, is more than frowned upon. I have seen instances where the swim-suited miscreant was asked to remove the offending piece or else leave the room. This is not entirely reverse prudery either, as wearing clothing in a sauna is considered unhealthy. (On the other hand you should always bring a lrge towel to sit on and catch the flows of sweat.)

As there are unfortunately a good many louts anxious to display their crude sense of humour in public saunas, many of these institutions have introduced ladies' nights, where entry is barred to men. Sadly for shy males, no sauna has inaugaurated a men's night as far as I know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Rik

I read somewhere that there are more nudists in Germany than any other country.

[Hadaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
I read somewhere that there are more nudists in Germany than any other country. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hooray for the FKK (Frei Korper Kultur - "Free Body Culture"). Germans have been at the forefront (is that an appropriate word to use?) of nudism for a very long time! In the early 20th century, nudism there was always linked to exercise, good diet and healthy outdoor lifestyle, as well. It was suppressed by the NAZIS, and re-surfaced after World War II. I'm Australian, not German, but as far as acceptance of public nudity is concerned, the Germans certainly win hands (or is it pants?) down!!!

Hadaka

There is an old adage that if something seems to good to be true, then it probably isn't true.

I have been to Germany at least hald a dozen times, each occasion was in midsummer, and I did not encounter a single naked person. Not one. I have stayed in hotels in Dusseldorf, Duisberg, Osnabruck and Hamburg. I have played with my kids in German parks and seen countless Germans sunning themselves and swimming in lakes and at a lido. You may choose to believe me or not, but we didn't even see a topless woman.

Now I am not doubting that there are places where some, perhaps many, Germans traditionally strip off. Some of these are infamous - e.g. the English Garden in Frankfurt (noted also for the fact that it attracts voyeurs - which is rather strange if nudity is so commonplace!!!)

I suspect that those who state nudity is commonplace in Germany are perpetuating a myth. Not only have I never seen any myself, leading travel organisations usually warn travellers against nudity on ordinary German beaches. One major organisation is Wikitravel, and it advises:

"On German beaches, it's usually okay for women to bathe topless though full nudity is frowned upon and should be avoided when others are around. An exception are nudist colonies/beaches labeled "FKK" (Freik?rper Kultur, literally free body culture) and most saunas."

http://wikitravel.org/en/article/Germany

So if you want to know the TRUTH rather than the HYPE - go there and see for yourself. Then come back on here and tell me that I (and the travelguides) are all wrong.

Stu

[hm0504]

Based on my trip to Germany, nudity in saunas and on beaches in the norm.

I would add that the term "nudist" only makes sense in a culture where nudity is considered abnormal. For example, in North America, we do not have fruit-eating clubs, fruit-optional restaurants, etc.? Why, because eating fruit is so uncontroversial and even approved, that no special distinction is required. Now suppose, there a movement swept North America that decided that eating fruit was immoral, unhealthy, and disgusting. Also imagine, there were a small percentage who felt eating fruit was moral, healthy, and overall good -- one would need a term to distinguish these people such as "fruitists".

Because in Germany, since the overthrow of the Nazis and their zealous concern for public morality, nudist group members are actually finding their numbers dwindling -- they are the victims of their own success. Being a "nudist" in Germany is like thinking you, in North America, have to belong to a fruit-eating club in order to eat fruit.

Though I haven't been to them, I understand a number of the neighbouring countries hold similar views on nudity. In Denmark, for example, CO is the default, you have to search if you want a textile beach.

hm

Saunas I can't comment on because I have never been to one in Germany but from your posting I suspect you have been to Germany just the one time and never to Denmark.

I have been to Germany approximately seven times -one occasion was in 1992 and was for three and a half weeks! On another occasion we stayed in Venlo in Holland but right on the German border and that was for three weeks also - one week of which was at Center Parcs. We have visited German beaches - not that many I admit, but we have spent plenty of time in German parks. My former boss moved to Hamburg about ten years ago and he has a house situated right on the periphery of a large and famous Hamburg park - we have been his house guest twice and spent many happy hours playing with our children and his grandchildren and dogs in that very park on summer days. On warm weekends this park is brimming with sun worshippers - all clothed to some degree.

I will concede that we have never ventured deep into central or southern Germany, Bavaria, or anywhere in the former East Germany, but we have certainly toured around the place. I can only think that you visited a particular place where nudity was not an issue - that doesn't mean that is the rule around the country. My experience and the Wikitravel guide show that your experience is certainly not universal!

As far as Denmark is concerned - that country is my second home. I go every year, often two or three times a year and I am a fluent Danish speaker. I have professional contacts, relatives and close friends in several parts of that country and I have toured the length and breadth of the country - more than most native Danes! CO most certainly is NOT the default - if you doubt me GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. They have many "fribadestrande" which are clothing optional and the police won't prosecute you for nudity on any other beach PROVIDING your nudity is unlikely to cause offence. According to a friend of mine, who happens to be a "Vicepolitidirekt?r" (a very senior police officer) and also a qualified "Statsadvocat" (state prosecutor) that means out of sight of anyone who is likely to find nudity offensive - and that means any non-nudist in the vicinity.

You are falling for and perpetuating the MYTH that nudity is commonplace on all Danish beaches and if you do that you could get other nudists into trouble with the law. That really isn't a very good thing to do.

Stu

[hm0504]

stu wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I really don't know how much time you have spent either in Germany or Denmark - I suspect you have been to Germany just the one time and never to Denmark <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No need to "suspect", that is exactly what I stated in my prior post. FYI, I spent about 9 days in Germany. I also have German friends who cannot believe that they cannot just change into swimsuits right on the beach in North America. I have yet to meet a German who thought nudity was immoral though I'm sure there are indeed some.

It is certainly possible not to see any nudity in Germany. I'm not saying Germans make a big point of going nude; just that it is no big deal to be nude in German saunas or at beaches.

Anyway, as I recall stu, you have written something along the lines that you do not see your wife naked, the both of you change clothes in different rooms, AND you have no reason to believe this is not uncommon today. Well based on that and other statements of yours, I have concluded we live in separate, parallel, yet strangely different universes that have somehow been maysteriously connected through the ClothesFree forum. And as such, we must live with the agony of never being able to have shared experiences. Quel dommage!

hm

"German friends who cannot believe that they cannot just change into swimsuits right on the beach in North America."

Now THAT is different. Yes, people do sometimes change into swimwear on the beach in Germany. But they usually do it very quickly indeed and then keep their swimwear on whilst they are relaxing, swimming etc. To me, there is a difference between changing into swimwear (which I don't like to see but can put up with if they are very quick and as discreet as possible) and remaining naked.

"I have yet to meet a German who thought nudity was immoral though I'm sure there are indeed some."

Me too. Who said nudity was immoral? I didn't.

"It is certainly possible not to see any nudity in Germany."

It is not only possible you will not see any nudity in Germany, it is likely - unless you go to a public sauna. FYO I have visited two public saunas in Denmark and one in Sweden (all part of health clubs) but guess what - they had separate times / separate saunas for males and females.

"you have written something along the lines that you do not see your wife naked, the both of you change clothes in different rooms,

True.

"AND you have no reason to believe this is not uncommon today."

No. I know it is fairly uncommon these days - but not as rare as you might imagine.

"And as such, we must live with the agony of never being able to have shared experiences. Quel dommage!"

Au contraire. We have actually agreed on a few things here - like the bit about getting changed on German beaches, an dthat nudity is not immoral per se, and also that my not seeing my wife naked is a bit unusual. Once we get away from myth and hyperbole it is surprising how much we can actually agree on.

But, for your own sake hm, don't go naked on any Danish beach unless you know check out the situation first. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
One major organisation is Wikitravel, and it advises:

"On German beaches, it's usually okay for women to bathe topless though full nudity is frowned upon and should be avoided when others are around. An exception are nudist colonies/beaches labeled "FKK" (Freik?rper Kultur, literally free body culture) and most saunas."

http://wikitravel.org/en/article/Germany

So if you want to know the TRUTH rather than the HYPE - go there and see for yourself. Then come back on here and tell me that I (and the travelguides) are all wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now there's a funny thing, when I looked up the Wikitravel reference it said:

"On German beaches, it's usually okay for women to bathe topless and full nudity is not uncommon. Some beaches are specifically reserved for nudists and are labeled "FKK" (Freik?rper Kultur, literally free body culture) and in most saunas nudity is compulsory."

...which is a bit different from what you reported.

Now, what did I say a few posts back? Ah yes -"Before Stu comes along and tells you that all Germans are prudes..." /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

PS. Wikitravel is NOT a major travel organisation: indeed it doesn't organise any travel whatsoever!

[turkishnudes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the English Garden in Frankfurt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's funny, last time I was sunbathing in the English Garden, it was in Munich. Stu knows best - must have been moved by the Bavarian prudes to another city!

[Bob S.]

Outlaw, where do you think I got this article from?

"Some of these are infamous - e.g. the English Garden in Frankfurt (noted also for the fact that it attracts voyeurs - which is rather strange if nudity is so commonplace!!!)"

I believe I heard that the voyeurs are foreign tourists, stu.

Ands stu, I also read that site. It said what Rik wrote. Where exactly did you get your quote from?

"Yes, people do sometimes change into swimwear on the beach in Germany."

And there is already a major difference. Here in the US, that could be an arrestable offence.

Bob S.

[Yukon1]

I'm a Canadian who lived in Germany (in a suburb of Munich) for a total of just over 8 months over the winters of 1990-1 and 1991-2. While the fact that it was winter changed things as far as nudity was concerned, I found that on warm days, nude sunbathing was fairly common, though not extremely common. That was the case both on a beach on an island in the North Sea, and on the riverbank and in parks in downtown Munich - you'd see suits and skirts piled neatly beside a nude sunbather. The family I stayed with said that while not everyone thinks that public nudity is okay, nobody will bug you about it as long as you're not doing anything nasty. So, as so often is the case, I saw the middle ground between the extremes being posted here. They also said that the voyeurs that are arrested are almost always Americans /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Murray

[Airborne]

I'm an American who spent nine plus years in Germany in the Army, in four different German States. Yes, there are places such as The English Garden where nudity is allowed, but it is not exactly right there next to main side walks either. That is actually the exception more than the rule when you talk about city parks. And yes, the majority of Schwimbads (Outdoor swimming pools) have an area where women sunbath topless, but they do put a top on when they go to swim, snack etc. I have seen women asked to cover up when parading around in a thong also. If you know what to look for, the FKK areas are very abundant, not the several hour drive like some of us have in the states. The Hallenbads (Indoor pools) are in nearly every town. Normally three or more nights a week there are nude swims after 7 or 8 PM. One small town I lived in some of the locals would walk home naked, the exception, not the rule. And yes, I have seen individuals thrown out of saunas for not going nude. And yes there are the voyeurs and picture takers that are picked up also. All in all Germany is a wonderful country. Yes, changing clothes next to the pool or beach is done alot, and FKK areas are more abundant than in the US. The culture is much more open than the US attitude on nudity and top freedom we could all learn a lot from them. When I would walk down near the rivers on walking paths on nice days there would almost always be several individuals, male and female sunning naked. There is nothing illegal with this unless there are actions that would get you kicked out of a family setting resort. Of all the countries I have been to in the last 21 years, Germany was definately my favorite one to live in.

[Kari P]

I have seen two different versions of the Wikitravel page: Stu's version (yesterday) and Rik's version (today). The different texts were in exactly the same place. Either they have made a correction to the text or the site has been cracked.

[Outlaw]

Bob S.--

I assumed that's where you got it from. I was just letting others know that there is another site that has nudist information (if they don't know already). I don't see many posts referring to Cheef's site. He used to have a lot of different clips every day.

Mike

[Rex]

Originally quoted by Rik, from a book by a well informed author:

"That goes doubly for public beaches, baths, parks or river bank stretches where full nudity in its live presentation is not at all unusual. Whereas just a few decades ago, this would have been considered scandalous in Germany, today it's routine."

So "just a few decades ago", intelligent, educated, well-informed, highly respectable "Herr Stu" would have been saying, "Don't worry, it'll never happen."

This is the psychological source of the "total denial" syndrome. If you admit that something has happened somewhere else, [with a similar social-political-religious base as your own country], then by logical extension it can happen where you live too.

This is just too much to bear, so you go into total denial.

[cindiee_s]

Hi all,

My husband was transferred to work in Germany about 12 years ago and of course, myself and our two daughters came along as well.
We stayed there for about 4 1/2 years and have gone back numerous, many, many times over the years since he sometimes have to work there for 6 to 8 weeks and have travelled extensively to various countries like France, Spain, Italy, etc.
Yes, the Germans, French, Spaniards well, Europe in General is very open towards nudity and on TV, films, magazines, ads, etc. one can see topless women or nude male and females as pretty standard fares.
And yes, in Parks, Saunas (which we have visited often and still do), nudity is common on certain nights and hours. Certain river banks and portions of parks are open towards nudity.
So from a personal experience, Stu's version is incorrect.
Just my two cents. Cindiee

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "That goes doubly for public beaches, baths, parks or river bank stretches where full nudity in its live presentation is not at all unusual. Whereas just a few decades ago, this would have been considered scandalous in Germany, today it's routine." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to add a bit of background, the FKK movement started in the 1920's as people looked for an alternative to the Victorian prudishness and war-prone culture of Europe.

When the Nazis came to power, they were very concerned about upholding public morality and sought to weed out corrupting influences like nudism (along with Judaism, Slavs, etc.). Of course, once the Nazis were overthrown, there was much rethinking about what actually constitutes public morality and what does not. Thus Germany has become the most excellent place it is today.

[Kari P]

It's a pity that we haven't German naturists as readers. They don't need our own forum, as they have their own ones in their own language.

Rik and Bob,

THIS IS BIZARRE!!!!!!! I copied and pasted my quotation DIRECTLY from the WIKITRAVEL page and that's what I quoted here. I just checked MY OWN link and it said what Rik said and not what I said. This is SO STRANGE!!!! I really can't explain it. Now I know how somebody feels when they are accused of a crime they didn't commit and the police say they found their fingerprints on the murder weapon. I'm going to email this organisation and ask them if they can shed some light on this - it's really got me puzzled!

What I reported about Germany is also the truth from my own experience - and it doesn't seem much different to what Airborne is telling us and he lived there for nine years. Even Cindee's account mentions that nudity is seen in certain places and at certain times - it's not common at all parks at all times etc. Of course the country could have changed since my last visit in 1999 but I can't see it having changed so much in such a short time. I can accept that there are places where it's OK to be nude in Germany but we have seen HUNDREDS of sunbathing Germans. Some women were topless on beaches (not in parks), some people got changed on the beach, but we never saw ANY of them hanging around naked. We never visited any saunas because we knew that it was likely there would be nudity.

As far as Denmark, which was also mentioned, is concerned, we were there in February this year and in July and August last year. Last year we hired a summerhouse at a popular beach resort called Karrebaeksminde and we spent a glorious two weeks there enjoying the beaches there, at Stillinge, Fakse Ladeplads and right up north to the most prestigious beach in the country at Gilleleje. We are going again this August. Do you REALLY think I'd go there and take my family if nudity were commonplace? I love Denmark but the first time I ever see a naked person on a Danish beach will be the very last time I ever visit that country.

Stu

Rik,

I'm exonerated! If you follow the link at WIKITRAVEL, on the left hand side of the page you will see a column - among the list you will see a link saying "Recent changes". Click it and then choose "250" (meaning the most recent 250 changes to their web pages). Then scroll down the list and you will see "11 May 2004 (diff) (hist) . . Germany; 22:50 . . 81.155.121.41 (Talk)". Click on that and you will see the Germany page again - but this time with MY wording and not yours.

In other words, they changed the web page wording in the few hours between MY posting and YOUR response. Now is that amazing or what????

I was beginning to think there was some strange conspiracy against me. Phew! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stu

[Rik]

Stu,

So let me get this straight. This "leading travel organisation" which offers, what was it? oh yes, the "TRUTH rather than the HYPE" turns out to have changed its mind about the TRUTH which now seems to be different from your version of the TRUTH. So now, I guess, it must be HYPE.

Just whose HYPE are we to believe about beach nudity in Germany? A "leading travel organisation" or a leading prude?

Funny old world isn't it?

Rik

Rik

This organisation has changed its mind in a matter of HOURS - so I don't know what to think or say.

But look CAREFULLY at the other posts from people who have lived in Germany - people who certainly aren't prudes - and make up your own mind.

I know what I saw when I was there. Maybe I'm out of touch because I haven't been there for 5 years and things have changed. Maybe there's quite a bit of hype as well.

We can only speak as we find.

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
But look CAREFULLY at the other posts from people who have lived in Germany - people who certainly aren't prudes - and make up your own mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well I quoted earlier from a book (that doesn't get altered) where the author has lived in Germany for 15 years. I could quote numerous other sources which say much the same thing. And I have my own experience to go by.

Rik

[Rex]

Originally posted by Stu:

"I love Denmark but the first time I ever see a naked person on a Danish beach will be the very last time I ever visit that country."

Come on, Stu, tell me you're exaggerating. Surely you would just be more careful where you went and make sure that was unlikely to happen to you again.

[Brachypelma]

Hi Guys and Gals!

I am a German, and live in the Frankfurt area. It basicly is as it already has been stated here earlier.
When people change in outdoor pools or on beaches/ lakes either a towel is used or nothing at all. Some use the cubicles but not everyone. One can swim/sun topless in beaches, outdoor pools or in lakes. The beaches are oftenusually textile but almost everywhere there are fkk (nudist) areas and if you are naked on them nobody says anything. And kids are almost always naked.
Saunas are mandatorily nude. People will be thrown out if they are not. It is said to be unhealthy in the sauna clothed: vapors and the cloth can get hot which isn't very good for the guys, but also not much better for the women.
A lot of indoor pools have regular fkk swims (e.g. every Saturday after 19:00, where fkk is also mandatory. These swims are usually very well visited, except for those with a specific reputation.

"Come on, Stu, tell me you're exaggerating. Surely you would just be more careful where you went and make sure that was unlikely to happen to you again."

Rex - all I want is to be able to go to normal places such as beaches and parks without encountering nudity. Is that really SO much to ask?

Brachypelma

"Hi Guys and Gals!"

Guten aben

"When people change in outdoor pools or on beaches/ lakes either a towel is used or nothing at all. Some use the cubicles but not everyone."

When people CHANGE. Thank you. It's the same in Denmark.

"One can swim/sun topless in beaches, outdoor pools or in lakes."

One can swim or sunbathe topless. Same in Denmark, although most don't.

"The beaches are often usually textile but almost everywhere there are fkk (nudist) areas and if you are naked on them nobody says anything."

Beaches usually often textile. Right. And there are plenty of nudist areas. That's great. It's the same in Denmark - many beaches have a signposted "fribadestrand" at one end.

"And kids are almost always naked."

Small kids usually are in most European countries - I don't like to see it myself.

As for saunas - yes I have heard that they are normally mandatory nude so I avoid them. All the ones I have ben to in Denmark have either been segregated for men and women, or people have worn swimwear.

So there we have a definitive answer from a German in Germany - most beaches are textile with plenty of designated nudist areas. Pretty much what I've been saying all along, then - in Germany if you avoid naturist areas you are unlikely to encounter adult nudity (apart from momentarily when some people are changing).

Thank you, Brachypelma. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stu

[Rik]

Try this article (http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={F040FFD3-897B-46DF-9603-752DD6405389}&doc={383CEC56-111E-45E5-8088-8AC8442FBEFF}) published in English by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Here's a couple of quotes: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People here seem to have few qualms about either showing their skin in public or seeing others' unclad bodies. Whether on the front page of the daily Bild newspaper, on television, or outdoors in warm weather, nudity is everywhere.

Go to any lake on a hot summer day and you'll find yourself surrounded by people in various stages of undress, from topless women soaking up the rays to nudists strutting their stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For the more modest, the prospect of stripping down in front of strangers might be the stuff of nightmares. But if you're open to co-ed bathing in the buff, you'll find that such spots are very civilized, with young couples, families with small children, and older folks often mingling freely with one another. And with no one ogling, you might even forget that all those malfunctioning wardrobes [ a reference to Janet Jackson's dress] are supposed to be shocking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is this TRUTH or HYPE?

Rik

<img src = "http://www.comikunst.de/illu/Bilder/fkk.jpg" height = "200">
[Roughly translated as 'The truth about FKK']

[Brachypelma]

Hi

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> in Germany if you avoid naturist areas you are unlikely to encounter adult nudity (apart from momentarily when some people are changing). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have to make an addition: one can still full nudity one any beach, park or pool. I's just not that often.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Roughly translated as 'The truth about FKK'] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is little translation mistake: it says: "The true dangers of fkk"


Brachypelma

Rik

I read the article. I also read an article in The Sunday Times about three years ago that stated that there were no naturist beaches in Denmark because nudity was the normal state on all beaches in that country. Total cr@p - as you will see when you go there in July.

Look at Brachypelma's last posting. He is a German living in Frankfurt and I believe him rather than a sensationalising newspaper. I said:

"in Germany if you avoid naturist areas you are UNLIKELY to encounter adult nudity (apart from momentarily when some people are changing)."

He responded:

"..one can still full nudity one any beach, park or pool. It's just NOT THAT OFTEN."

So he is saying you don't normally encounter nudity at non-nudist venues in Germany - so my experiences are not surprising, are they?

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Look at Brachypelma's last posting. He is a German living in Frankfurt and I believe him rather than a sensationalising newspaper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you think that Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is a "sensationalising newspaper"?. On its front page you'll find articles on such topics as (wait for it!) disageements over fiscal policy, the Dresden flood prevention scheme and the introdution of 3G phones by T-Mobile and Vodaphone.

Not a naughty naked gnome in sight!

Rik

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brachypelma:
There is little translation mistake: it says: "The true dangers of fkk"

Brachypelma <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the correction - I said it was rough translation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

Rik

"Why do you think that Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is a "sensationalising newspaper"?."

I gave an example above of a load of bull emanating from no less than the Sunday Times! Posh papers can be just as guilty of sensationalising stories as the Mirror and the Daily Herald.

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
I gave an example above of a load of bull emanating from no less than the Sunday Times! Posh papers can be just as guilty of sensationalising stories as the Mirror and the Daily Herald. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well actually what you said was that you remembered reading a story about Danish beaches three years ago so we only have your word for it that it was "a load of bull". And we all know how you like to reinterpret what other people say about naturism don't we?

"Daily Herald"? You mean that UK newspaper which went out of print in 1964? And they're still sensationalising stories? Wow!

Rik

"Well actually what you said was that you remembered reading a story about Danish beaches three years ago so we only have your word for it that it was "a load of bull".

Well you'll find out for yourself in July, won't you, Rik?

Stu

[Rik]

What I meant was that we don't know what the article you were talking about actually said or whether it even existed.

Rik

[The Dane]

Hi All

I am from Denmark, so first of all you must excuse me, if my english is too bad.

I am a member of Danish naturist. http://www.naturister.dk. They have made a guide to co beaches in Denmark. You can see it, if you try the following link http://www.strandguide.dk . Unfortunately
It is only in danish, so if you have any questions about a beach, please send me a mail.

What I then want to say is. That.

“As a basic principle you are allowed to skinny dip or be nude at all beaches in Denmark, excluding a few on the West coast of Jutland (Henne Strand (beach) and Holmsland Klit). You must however avoid bothering other guests at the beach or you might face persecution”

So please no bad manners on the beaches in Denmark. If you are just enjoying the sun and the fresh water, and don’t harm other people nothing will happen to you. That means the police won’t charged you for any thing related to naturism.

The Dane,

[Bob S.]

OK stu, the point is not that nudity is abounding on every street and beach in Germany. It is that nudity is seen as less of a social issue in Germany.

Brachy, I appreciate your input as a German and hope you can offer more to these forums.

So from what I understand, in Germany toplessness is seen occasionally and is accepted. Naked children can be seen on most beaches and is accptable. FKK beaches are numerous and accessible to everyone. Once in a while, you may see nudity on a regular beach but that will be subject to the surrounding people who may wish to either ignore it or make an issue of it.

I would love for that to be the way of the US. We have a long, long, long way to go before that is all adopted.

Bob S.

Thanks for letting us hear from a real live Dane, Dane!

[Trailscout]

Can any of you Europeans enlighten me on when it could possibly be warm enough to be nude on the beach in Denmark?

I was in England in June and I almost froze to death it was so cold. Well there was one day when it was sunny and warm, otherwise we had the cold rain and wind that we see in March at home. On the coast of my state you can enjoy swimming in the ocean as soon as early May.

[Rex]

Originally posted by Stu:

"Well actually what you said was that you remembered reading a story about Danish beaches three years ago so we only have your word for it that it was "a load of bull".

"Well you'll find out for yourself in July, won't you, Rik?"

Well Stu, after hearing from The Dane, it looks like we've already found out, doesn't it?

The Dane

Perhaps you wouldlike to translate the following extract from the Danish Penal Code for the benefit of non-Danish speakers here:

? 17. Stk. 6. Med hensyn til offentlige badestrande og badeanstalter kan politiet tr?ffe bestemmelse om iv?rks?ttelse af s?danne foranstaltninger, som findes p?kr?vet for at hindre, at de badende giver anledning til offentlig forargelse.

Now I trust you are not telling people that it is absolutely fine to be naked on any Danish beach. I assume you aren't telling us that nobody will bother if you are swimming or sunbathing naked on the popular, non-nudist Danish beaches at, say, the main beaches at Stillinge Strand, or Fakse Ladeplads, or Gillileje. I visit these beaches EVERY summer and I have yet to see a naked person using the beach - except children or people getting changed.

Rex

We haven't got to the bottom of this one yet, so don't start counting your chickens quite just yet. If nudity was common and acceptable at normal Danish beaches then I wouldn't go anywhere the place - let alone choose it as my main holiday destination. At best, you have one alleged Dane who is telling us something. I can bring a dozen or more real Danes here who will gladly state the opposite.

Stu

[Rex]

I have spoken today to a good friend of mine who is German born and used to live in Hamburg.

He told me that he has been nude on the beach at various places on the Baltic Sea and on some of the islands off the north German coast. He told me that there was plenty of nudity there and no-one seemed to care.

He said it was the same at some of the lakes in the Black Forest area.

Another friend originally from the eastern part of Germany goes back nearly every year for a few months to escape our winter. He has told me on a number of occasions that people are nude in numerous places in Germany and it's not considered a problem.

[Rex]

Originally posted by Stu: [twice, maybe a nervous twitch of the finger]

"We haven't got to the bottom of this one yet, so don't start counting your chickens quite just yet. If nudity was common and acceptable at normal Danish beaches then I wouldn't go anywhere the place - let alone choose it as my main holiday destination. At best, you have one alleged Dane who is telling us something. I can bring a dozen or more real Danes here who will gladly state the opposite."

We also have one alleged Englishman, [do we really know who you are or where you are from?], telling us how things are in Denmark and offering to bring a dozen or more alleged REAL Danes who will allegedly back him up.

Stu, did you bother to look at http://www.strandguide.dk or are you scared that what you may see there would put you off taking holidays in Denmark?

[Trailscout]

Stu, I can produce a great Dane who has never worn clothes her entire life and no one has batted an eye at her continual nudity.

[The Dane]

Hi Stu Rex and others.

I will try to translate it. It may not be correct English, but I hope you understand it.

? 17. Stk. 6. Med hensyn til offentlige badestrande og badeanstalter kan politiet tr?ffe bestemmelse om iv?rks?ttelse af s?danne foranstaltninger, som findes p?kr?vet for at hindre, at de badende giver anledning til offentlig forargelse.

In english

?According to public beaches and swimmingpools (I don?t know the English word for ?badeanstalter?). The police can make regulations, that seems required to prevent, that
Bathing people don?t cause public offense?.

But then I would like to say.

If you go to a Danish beach try so see what is the norm on that beach. Is it textile or is it more the naturist norm. If I go to a beach where the norm is textile (I rarely do), then I will put on my bathing suit.

In Denmark we do not have so called naturist beaches where all people are naked. On a beach in Denmark you can find both naked and non naked people on the beach.On the "strandguide" http://www.strandguide.dk it is those that has a red dot. And As I said before. Try to look at the norm for the beach.

The Dane.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Can any of you Europeans enlighten me on when it could possibly be warm enough to be nude on the beach in Denmark? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The weather in any northern European country can be unpredictable but it rarely reaches extremes at either end of the scale. Denmark has a changeable climate which changes very quickly. It's fairly normal in summer to have rain, cloud, sunshine and blue skies all within an hour or two. The temperature however doesn't vary too much as the whole area is warmed by the Gulf Stream. Having stayed at various naturist campsites in Denmark and nearby countries it's not unusual to see campsite naturism practised in the rain although you'd be unlikely to see it on a beach. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The summer season is short however and the best time to go is probably late June and July.

Despite both Stu and I picking it as a holiday destination you would be unlikely to encounter many (if any) English or Americans there outside of Copenhagen. English, however, is spoken by most Danes remarkably well and you'll find that many apologise for their "school English" and then go on to speak it perfectly well so I am surprised at Stu when he says "At best, you have one alleged Dane" as Dane's apologetic opening remark about the state of his English was typical of many Danes that I have met.

Rik

"Having stayed at various naturist campsites in Denmark and nearby countries it's not unusual to see campsite naturism practised in the rain although you'd be unlikely to see it on a beach."

Thankyou, Rik. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I can't comment uponcampsites because I'm not a camper, but I appreciate your clause: "unlikely to see it on a beach".

"so I am surprised at Stu when he says "At best, you have one alleged Dane" as Dane's apologetic opening remark about the state of his English was typical of many Danes that I have met."

No, from his last response I'm now happy that our new contributor is a Dane - especially when you see how it now qualifies what seemed to be his original position. Firstly he accepts that the police can make a ruling about a beach - and that doesn't mean a written, published order, it means the individual officer on the ground at the time a complaint is received. From my inquiries with members of the Danish police, they will require a person who is inappropriately naked on any beach (other than a "fribadestrand") to dress or leave the beach upon receipt of any complaint. By "inappropriate" I mean openly naked in close proximity of others where nudity is not the norm. This protects those who find a remote or quiet piece of beach and nobody objects to them using it - it is to stop the police hounding bathers who are not bothering anyone.

Note that he says:

"On a beach in Denmark you can find both naked and non naked people on the beach." BUT THEN "On the "strandguide" http://www.strandguide.dk it is those that has a red dot." Those marked with a red dot are the "fribadestrande" I have been talking about - i.e. what you and I would called CO beaches - and they constitute by far the minority of Danish beaches. The remainder and by far the greater amount of beach space in Denmark is effectively textile. Virtually all the most popular tourist beaches are 100% textile - and very few people - including naturists such as our friend here - would dream of getting naked on them.

So how is this situation so vastly different from that we find here in the UK? Or in Spain? The only real difference is that there are relatively far more naturist (or, more accurately, clothing optional) beaches in Denmark. And that is something I have consistently supported.

Anyone who tries to suggest, as some have tried to do, that nudity is absolutely fine on virtually any Danish beach doesn't know what they are talking about.

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Thankyou, Rik. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I can't comment uponcampsites because I'm not a camper, but I appreciate your clause: "unlikely to see it on a beach". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Given that I was talking about naturism in the context of climate I would have thought you'd have realised that what I meant was that you'd be unlikely to see naturism on a beach IN THE RAIN in the same way that you'd be unlikely to see anyone on the beach IN THE RAIN.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So how is this situation so vastly different from that we find here in the UK? Or in Spain? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The difference is one of attitude. The considerate Danes, like the Dutch, like the Germans, like the French are not nearly as likely to be "offended, alarmed or distressed" about simple nudity as you seem to think and therefore would, in my opinion, be quite unlikely to either DEMAND that a nudist cover up nor call them a pervert, nor beat them up nor phone the police.

Here's a quote from the website of a naturist campsite Lillebaelt Naturistcamping (http://home12.inet.tele.dk/bonde/Nfl/Engelsk/page5.html) in Denmark (they should know about etiquette on beaches!) which seems to sum it up quite nicely. It says: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>According to Danish law, public nudity is not forbidden. Offending, indecent behaviour can however be prosecuted. Local police regulations may state that public nudity is allowed only at designated places. Denmark has 7000 km coastline and nudity is only forbidden on very few kilometres of our coastline.
But please have consideration for people that do not like nudity as much as the naturists do. Don't force yourself upon people that are already there, and let arriving people get a chance to notice you so they can move somewhere else if they don't like your nudity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As you often say, the Danes are considerate people to the extent that they can expect to "move somewhere else if they don't like your nudity" which is quite different from the attitude which you take.

Rik

Firstly, this is from a nudist website, but let's look at what they are saying:

"Local police regulations may state that public nudity is allowed only at designated places."

Correct. According to my contacts the power of the police will be invoked if people find nudity offensive - some Danes do and some don't. From my own observations, and I have been to DOZENS of Danish beaches and seen THOUSANDS of sea and sun bathers, it's not an issue. Nudity may be commonplace on nudist beaches but it is, as The Dane comments, extremely rare elsewhere - especially in places used by normal people.

"Denmark has 7000 km coastline and nudity is only forbidden on very few kilometres of our coastline."

That refers to the outright prohibition of nudity by government regulation. As far as I am aware, there are no beaches the UK in which there is a specific law banning nudity.

"But please have consideration for people that do not like nudity as much as the naturists do."

Danish nudists telling nudists that there are people in Denmark who do not like nudity.

"Don't force yourself upon people that are already there, and let arriving people get a chance to notice you so they can move somewhere else if they don't like your nudity."

In a remote place, yes, but I think if a nudist were the first person to arrive at a popular beach traditionally used by textiles, it would be they who would be told to move.

Stu

[Rik]

Well Stu, you can put whatever desperate spin you like on it (e.g. you seem not to have not spotted the word "may" regarding local police regulations) but let's face it, you are making assumptions about the Danish attititude to nudity based on your own extreme attitude and you assume that considerate Danes cannot be considerate of nudists should they stumble accross them on a beach.

For you the consideration has to be all one way and it seems you cannot conceive of other (normal?) people just accepting simple, non-sexual, non-behavioural, non-agressive nudity for what it is like they do in Germany (to bring this thread back on topic).

Rik

"For you the consideration has to be all one way.."

The "consideration" is that the mainly textile societies of Denmark, Germany and the UK provide beaches for nudists to use. The "consideration" in return is that they stick to them. That's a two-way thing, Rik.

"..and it seems you cannot conceive of other people just accepting simple, non-sexual, non-behavioural, non-agressive nudity for what it is like they do in Germany"

Some people accept it, others don't. Whilst ever there is a significant proportion of the population who don't accept it, nudists should confine their nudity to those places set aside for them. From what I have read here that applies in most parts of Germany too.

Stu

[Rik]

OK Stu, you win.

http://www.click-smilies.de/my_smileys/smileys1/arsch.gif Rik

"OK Stu, you win."

Rik

I dispute that. Nudists are only being in their natural state after all. I mean, they shouldn't be forced into ghettos by a few narrow-minded prudes like me.

Germany is leading the way because there nearly everyone is naked 24/7 in summer, and those few who wear clothes are 100% OK with seeing nudity - even the staff in the Dresden branch of McDonalds are starkers apart from their baseball hats and pinnies.

By the way, please remove that rude "bottom" from your last posting. It was so unseemly I dropped my snuffbox and gave my keyboard a powdering of my best McChrystal's English Menthol blend. What a waste!

Stu

[Rik]

I knew you'd see it my way in the end.

Here's some more snuff for you - be careful where you put it!

http://store4.yimg.com/I/kccweb_1792_34254626

Rik

That's a much nicer picture.

Stu

[Soleil Nu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
By the way, please remove that rude "bottom" from your last posting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why should he ? The majority of people here were not offended by it...

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Stu, I can produce a great Dane who has never worn clothes her entire life and no one has batted an eye at her continual nudity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But isn't she--literally--a pretty hairy b*tch? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(Sorry; couldn't resist.)

[Jochanaan]

I suspect there is a subconscious process working. Stu, notorious for his nudity phobia, naturally doesn't stumble upon places in which nudity is accepted, while others who have less difficulty or are nudists themselves, do. Each tends to think his/her experience typical.

Still, it does appear that most of the European peoples are more accepting of nudity than most of the United States peoples.

[Trailscout]

She doesn't shave if that's what you mean, but b*tch? No one ever calls her that. She lives with some friends of mine and she's as sweet as she can be. After all these years in the states she still doesn't speak a word of English, but she manages to communicate her basic needs. And yes, she lives her life completely nude all the time! That's the great Dane way. Most people don't object, her body is so beautiful after all, but if anyone does scold her for being nude, she pretends not to hear it.

I admire the great Danes; they are so cheerful and free. Most Americans could learn a lot from them.

Soleil

"Why should he ? The majority of people here were not offended by it..."

It was a joke - Rik immediately knew it was a joke - banter between two Brits who share a similar sense of humour. They say British humour doesn't travel and how right they are.

Jochanaan

There is no doubt some truth in what you say. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I would just point out that, when in Denmark, we never even consider that any beach we visit for the first time might be a naturist beach or have naked people on it. Of course, we'll ask either people we know or at the tourist bureaux where good beaches are. But often we just drive along the coast, see the beach signs and follow them. We have done this DOZENS of times the length and breadth of the country and, upto now, never encountered naked people. It is dangerous to do that - no doubt sooner or later we will stumble on an official "fribadestrand" or a remote stretch being used by nudists. But so far we haven't seen a single naked adult on any Danish beach.

The point I am making is that it is a mistake to follow the widespread belief that nudity is acceptable and practised virtually everywhere in Denmark - or that it is the norm. It's not. In my experience it is very much the exception, just as it is here in the UK. Every non-nudist Dane I have spoken to has confirmed that. I have an old friend called Peter, a native Dane who lives thirty seconds walk from a beach at Karlslunde, just south of Copenhagen. He thinks that the British and Americal beliefs about the Danish attitudes towards nudity are absolutely hilarious!

Stu

[Bob S.]

But stu, does Peter think that the beliefs that Americans have regarding nudity are also hilarious?

Bob S.

[Rex]

We're told that this is Cologne [Germany].

http://www.nude-in-public.com/free/4.html

OK, it's a special day, but can anyone see this happening in Sheffield [Stu's home town].

Look at everyone's faces. They're all having a ball. But wait a minute, this is the place that Stu tells us is pretty much like everywhere else in regards to public nudity.

[NKDDON]

Rex...In todays world of digital photography, I have become a cynic when it comes to believing all very unusual photos are true. As much as I would like to believe it's true, there is something about that pic that looks as if it has been digitally altered. The fact that it is a "come on teaser" for a pay site makes me even more suspicious.
Any others of you have an opinion?
Hugs,
Don

[FLslimguy]

I too, am leery of a lot of the pix that I see that seem exceptionally unusual. But this group seems to be genuine. The lighting and shadows are always hard to fake and these look natural. Initially, I thought the color of the big one made it a sure fake, but it appears some sort of tent or umbrella created a darker tone on the lady. It's nice to see nudism without the police!

[Naturist Mark]

I don't doubt that they are genuine photos. It is the circumstances that are contrived; an attractive model enters a public space followed by photographers to document the 'event'.

The reaction of the public is normal. Laughter, interest, a bit of leering but mostly just surprise and amusement. Not really any different from what happens in America at events like the Fremont Solstice parade or Bay to Breakers run. The truly offended are few and far between.

Bob

"But stu, does Peter think that the beliefs that Americans have regarding nudity are also hilarious?"

Not that I know of, Bob.

Rex

I wish you wouldn't do that. I very nearly threw up when I saw that photo! Do you often visit porn sites? Because that's what it seems to be.

I don't believe the picture. It could have been digitally produced or otherwise staged - after all it is produced by profit-making pornographers trying to peddle their filth and attract subscriptions. Even if it is genuine, what does it prove? A special day. A very pretty girl. Mainly men cheering her on. Nobody could suggest that this was normal even in most German cities. Those who would find her conduct offensive are hardly going to hang around, are they?

If she did that in Sheffield she'd probably end up in the slammer, pretty as she is. And rightly so - that sort of behaviour is truly vile and she deserves to be punished. I'd like to see her do that in Kabul or Tehran!

Stu

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
She doesn't shave if that's what you mean, but b*tch? No one ever calls her that. She lives with some friends of mine and she's as sweet as she can be. After all these years in the states she still doesn't speak a word of English, but she manages to communicate her basic needs. And yes, she lives her life completely nude all the time! That's the great Dane way. Most people don't object, her body is so beautiful after all, but if anyone does scold her for being nude, she pretends not to hear it.

I admire the great Danes; they are so cheerful and free. Most Americans could learn a lot from them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I apologize; I thought I was only using the proper term for a female of her species.

She sounds like a great lady. Give her this message from me: Woof! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kari P]

I also believe that the picture shown by Rex and generally the nude-in-public pictures are genuine. And they are NOT porn. Stu, if you call them porn, you don't know what porn is.

Kari P

Kari

This appears to me to be a site where people pay money to view pictures of naked young attractive females.

I call that porn - 'soft' porn perhaps - but porn nontheless.

Stu

[Trailscout]

Stu, you don't get to reinvent the English language. We allowed Daniel Webster a little latitude to help foster our independence from the tyrants across the sea in those early years, but enough is enough! No one gave you permission to expand the definition of porn to include the platonic depiction of unadorned feminine pulchritude.

You are very presumptuous to impugn lascivious motive to those who simply wish to celebrate female beauty. I do not deny that some men will find virtually anything of prurient interest, but it patently unfair of you to presume that of all men at all times.

[Bob S.]

"I wish you wouldn't do that."

stu, why were you surprised when you saw that picture? Did you not read the URL addy, nude-in-public.com?

"Even if it is genuine, what does it prove? A special day. A very pretty girl. Mainly men cheering her on."

It proves that most of those people looking on all have smiles on their faces and having a good time. None of them seem to be vomiting or are upset in any way.

And for me, the thing that madew me realize it was probably real was the guy just to the left of her head with the camera. He seems to be very much enjoying the view! Also notable is that there is a yong (I would guess nine-year-old) girl looking on. Her parents are not hiding her eyes.

Bob S.

[Rex]

Originally posted by Stu:

"If she did that in Sheffield she'd probably end up in the slammer, pretty as she is. And rightly so - that sort of behaviour is truly vile and she deserves to be punished. I'd like to see her do that in Kabul or Tehran!"

Very nicely put Stu, She could not be nude in the street in Sheffield, Kabul or Tehran, but she CAN be nude in the street [at least on some occasions] in Cologne.

This is what we keep explaining to you!

BTW, it was not my intention to upset you. Perhaps I should have said:

"And I hollered over at Ethel...I said don't look Ethel" [for 'Ethel' read 'Stu'].
[With apologies to Ray Stevens.]

http://www.raystevens.com/SongLyrics/StreakLyrics.html

[Rated OK for Stu, words only, no pictures.]

[Rex]

Originally posted by Stu:

"Mainly men cheering her on."

In the large photo 16 identifiable as male, 13 identifiable as female, including one young girl. Just about even numbers.

Stu, I think you see what you are predisposed to see, imagine what you are predisposed to imagine and believe what you are predisposed to believe.

Some people go out of their way to be "offended" so that they can complain. The word "nude" should have told Stu something.

[Kari P]

We talked earlier about nude-in-public pictures taken in Copenhagen. They are as genuine as this one from Cologne. Stu, you cannot believe, but it is true that these pictures have been taken just in the street, and no-one seems to be upset. And the stories on the site don't mention that the girls or the photographer had been arrested.

[Soleil Nu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Soleil

"Why should he ? The majority of people here were not offended by it..."

It was a joke - Rik immediately knew it was a joke - banter between two Brits who share a similar sense of humour. They say British humour doesn't travel and how right they are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was also joking Stu. Maybe our respective sense of humour are just incompatible.

Trailscout

"platonic depiction of unadorned feminine pulchritude"

Yeah! Right. That photo was very platonic. Not! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"You are very presumptuous to impugn lascivious motive to those who simply wish to celebrate female beauty."

Wow! What a great excuse for any guy whose wife catches him looking at nude pics of leggy-lovelies! "It's OK, Honey, I'm just celebrating female beauty. No lasciviousness. Honest." That is just SO funny!

Bob

Yes it is a funny name for a porn site.

I notice that site doesn't have pictures of, e.g. Steve Gough, or any other male for that matter. There are also no older people, no families, no pregnant women, no fat women, no disabled people etc etc. Just pretty ladies flashing themselves off in return for cash.

Neither you nor I can say with any certainty whether the pics were fabricated or staged. Nor can we say whether or not there were others in the area who found the behaviour offensive or unacceptable - if they did you wouldn't SERIOUSLY expect them to be in the picture would you? Pornographers don't generally want to show people disapproving of the rubbish they peddle.

Rex

I said: "Mainly men cheering her on."

You replied: "In the large photo 16 identifiable as male, 13 identifiable as female, including one young girl. Just about even numbers."

Look again at the picture. Count not just the number of peple present, but the number of those who you can see are actually cheering her on. They don't look like women to me!!!!

Jon-Marc

"The word "nude" should have told Stu something."

You are right. I just didn't expect such an explicit, full-frontal piece of blatent pornography. That's why I retched.

Kari

The porn-bandits that produce this stuff use "hit-and-run" methods. They do what they do with look-outs positioned up the street to shout up when the cops approach. The girl is then quickly dressed and disappears. And do you REALLY think the "story" would tell us if anyone got arrested, or got a ticket, or even just a telling off from the police? Do you really think they would show or tell us about any passers-by who were upset by their vile activities? I don't!

Stu

[Trailscout]

Stu,

Would you mind telling me what the woman does to inflame passion other than wearing only a pleasant smile?

Stu, to be sure some men look at other women (clothed or not) with lust. But the smirking tone of your post indicates that you may not have had much tutelage in the visual fine arts, where candid appreciation of the human form is not maligned.

If a man has a good relationship with his wife, and he is not sneaking behind her back, if he openly admires photographs of attractive women, many wives would not feel threatened. I am assuming that his enjoyment is not a compulsion that dominates his time.

I remember the ladies at work one day as they all stopped to admire a photo of Mel Gibson on the cover of a magazine. That night they all went home to their husbands and one can only assume that they enjoyed the usual marital intimacies with their husbands, giving their men no reason for jealousy.

Trailscout

Sorry but those photos are not "fine visual arts" in my book. Tell me, how many art connoiseurs do you think would frame such a photograph and put in on their walls? Do you think that ANY school would consider such a picture appropriate to show to students? No. The pictures aren't, and don't pretend to be, art. They are intended to titilate - nothing else. The fact they depict the subjects as being in public merely adds to the excitement - the titilation.

People can admire photos of good looking people. But when those people are close-up full-frontal stark naked - well that's an entirely different thing in my book. And, I suspect, most other people's.

Stu

Yeah Rex!...Loved that streak song and Ray Stevens ...Thanks for the link....ODB /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And Stu...Art is in the "Eye of the Beholder"

[Kari P]

Stu,

"The porn-bandits that produce this stuff use "hit-and-run" methods. They do what they do with look-outs positioned up the street to shout up when the cops approach. The girl is then quickly dressed and disappears."

No, according to the stories they had left their clothes far away, had them "stolen" or in some cases destroyed them. These pictures are not about flashing (there are flashing sites, but this one is different), the girls are nude tens of minutes or hours.

I am not a subscriber, but I have seen quite a lot of these pictures in newsgroups, so I know what I talk about. And of course you are not willing to see all the evidence that is available.

"And do you REALLY think the "story" would tell us if anyone got arrested, or got a ticket, or even just a telling off from the police? Do you really think they would show or tell us about any passers-by who were upset by their vile activities? I don't!"

I do. I believe in their honesty. Call me na?ve but I feel this way. Because you cannot believe that nudity in public places of young pretty women who behave in a completely normal manner could be tolerated, you also cannot believe that the picture series and the stories about how they were made can be totally honest.

You are right, it's essential that they are young pretty women. Older women or men couldn't be tolerated in the same way.

Remember that I told about a series of pictures from Copenhagen where naked girls sit on a police-car the officers smiling in there?

Kari P

[Trailscout]

Stu, I haven't seen the photo in question. I assumed that it was platonic because INA's policy forbids posting links to erotica.

[Trailscout]

If it's just an attractive girl larking about for the photographer as long as she is not positioning herself in a "come and get it pose", it may not be fine art, but it's a little innocent fun to break the monotony of the day. Most of us would have a good laugh and be on our way. Why be such a stick in the mud, Stu?

[Bob S.]

"I just didn't expect such an explicit, full-frontal piece of blatent pornography. That's why I retched."

What were you expecting from this site called "nude-in-public.com? However, you cannot call it porn necessarily. Yes, the specific subjects, the way the site is set up, the paid membership aspects of it lead it to a specific audience, but it cannot be called porn.

There are cases of naturist pictures that have shown up in soft-core porn sites. Does that make the naturist pictures pornographic also?

"Count not just the number of peple present, but the number of those who you can see are actually cheering her on. They don't look like women to me!!!!"

I count two people actively cheering her on. Both men. I see two men taking a picture of her. Others are laughing, including the two women right next to the girl and the last woman to the right. Nobody else can be described as "cheering her on."

"The girl is then quickly dressed and disappears."

If you looked the six pics below the main one, she is still naked walking around the square. Also, if you change the number in the URL (instead of 4.html use 3 or 2 or 1) you will find others in various other places including a racquetball court, a bar, and a construction site.

"Sorry but those photos are not "fine visual arts" in my book."

No, nor are they meant to be. They are meant to appeal to a specific audience. For me, my favorite kind of au naturel photos would be the family kind. Ma, pa, kids.

Bob S.

I find it interesting that most of the people seem to be ignoring the nude woman walking around as though it's no big deal.

[Rex]

Stu, I posted this URL as "exhibit number 1" as evidence that public nudity can and does occur at times in Germany under circumstances where it would be far less likely to be tolerated in some other countries.

After all, that does fit in with the theme of this thread.

Arguments as to the age, sex or physical attractiveness of the nude person and whether or not the photos qualify as art are totally irrelevant and are introduced by you as red herrings, because you don't find yourself able to accept the simple truth.

There is nothing sexual about these photos and they do not qualify as pornography, except perhaps by those who regard the nude body itself as pornographic. Those unfortunate people who do see the human body as pornographic would have a problem viewing many genuine works of art, dating from ancient times right up to the present day. Indeed, we do see stories from time to time where some "outraged" person makes a fool of themself by complaining about art which is univerally accepted as such.

I am not a subscriber to any nude-in-public sites, but non-subscribers have free access to dozens of photos, taken in many parts of Europe. The girls look as if they're enjoying themselves and so also are many of the onlookers, including women.

The street scenes and [in some cases] well known landmarks make the locations pretty obvious. There are many hundreds of photos and also videos on offer to subscribers. It's hardly likely that the producers have Hollywood type multi-million dollar budgets to create the very extensive special effects which would be required to fake these photos and videos. It's reasonable to accept that they are genuine.

Stu, you are not a "working lawyer", you are an "armchair warrior". The "perfect world" of theory is all very well, but in an actual courtroom situation, I would think that the judge would find your constant refusal to accept any evidence which did not suit your preconceived ideas as a tiresome misuse of the court's time.

Rex

We've seen pictures of streakers in Manchester, a naked Steve Gough in various places, and there is even a picture of some idiots walking near to our Houses of Parliament starkers. None of this means that nudity in public is "tolerated" in public. I would bet that you would never get even the German policeto say it was fine to be nude in the centre of Cologne. So the pornographic image doesn't prove anything even if it is real and not either a set-up or, more likely, digitally contrived, something which is amazingly easy these days. A colleague has a superb picture of himself standing on top of the Great Wall of China - he even casts a shadow on the picture - and he's never been anywhere near China!!!.

As far as being a lawyer is concerned, I know how much credibility is attached to unsubstantiated 'photographs' these days - and it is zero! They have been faking photos since two schoolgirls pictured themselves among fairies in their gardens about 70 years ago - they were taken many decades before digital photography but they fooled many experts including no less than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Here in the UK we have just been treated to a series of fabricated pictures of British troops abusing Iraqis - and it took the experts two months to decide they were fakes. Your "Exhibit 1" is as trustworthy as an eleven dollar bill! :0

By the way - do you REALLY think that the pictures are taken to be artistic? I think you would have difficuly in persuading any real art expert that they were anything more than smut.

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
We've seen pictures of streakers in Manchester, a naked Steve Gough in various places, and there is even a picture of some idiots walking near to our Houses of Parliament starkers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nonsense - they were all fakes!

Rik

"Nonsense - they were all fakes!"

You realised that too? Excellent!

Stu

[Jochanaan]

I have hesitated to get into this discussion of the nude-in-public site, but I hardly think it's a good example of publicly tolerated nudity. By their own admission, this enterprise is indulging a fetish. (Has anyone but me read what the site says about itself?) Supposedly, the young women in the pictures get a sexual rush from going naked in a public setting--not a naturist setting, but one in which nakedness is unexpected. And certainly a lot of people get their jollies from seeing such pictures, especially if it's likely that the naked ones were really where they seemed to be. So it's hardly an example of the non-erotic nudity we advocate here. (Most of us, cyndiann, in case you see this! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Key word "supposedly". She doesn't look so aroused to me. I don't see the pictures as being erotic although some people find any nude picture erotic. It is all in the mind of the one viewing it.

It isn't nudism but it really isn't erotic and sexual either even though the webmaster tries to make it look that way. Not all non-erotic nudity is nudism. Streaking would be another such example.

[MichaelJB]

Unless the person is clearly doing something sexual, then the sexual or erotic aspect of the picture is up for interpretation of the particular viewer.

[Rex]

Originally posted by Rex:

"The street scenes and [in some cases] well known landmarks make the locations pretty obvious. There are many hundreds of photos and also videos on offer to subscribers. It's hardly likely that the producers have Hollywood type multi-million dollar budgets to create the very extensive special effects which would be required to fake these photos and videos. It's reasonable to accept that they are genuine."

Reasonable to accept for all except Stu. "There's none so blind as they who will not see."

Originally posted by Stu:

"By the way - do you REALLY think that the pictures are taken to be artistic? I think you would have difficuly in persuading any real art expert that they were anything more than smut."

Totally irrelevant!

Originally posted by Jochanaan:

"So it's hardly an example of the non-erotic nudity we advocate here."

Like I said, it's "exhibit number 1".

[nudeboots]

A question for everyone in this discussion. Wasn't the original point that Nudism is a common activity in Germany? From my own information, Germany is very accepting of nudity and unaccepting of gawkers. This is from personal experience, from a brother who lives there, and two nieces that went to school there. There are definite "non-nude" areas in Germany, but a "nude" area is never far away. There are also different levels of acceptance of nudism depending on local custom, some area of Germany are almost as puritanical as the States, and there are other areas where anything short of public sex goes. My advice for Nudists is to look up the free areas, and for people like Stu, look up the puritanical areas then everyone can be happy. Guides are readily availible from any travel agent or on the Web.

"Key word "supposedly". She doesn't look so aroused to me. I don't see the pictures as being erotic although some people find any nude picture erotic. It is all in the mind of the one viewing it."

I suspect what this woman was being aroused by was the cash she'd get paid for exposing herself.

Rex

We could get bogged down in the time-honoured yet invariably fruitless discussion about what does and does not constitute art. So let's not. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nudeboots

"some area of Germany are almost as puritanical as the States, and there are other areas where anything short of public sex goes."

I agree wholeheartedly - that has certainly been my experience. I have been in plenty of German parks and on a few German beaches - all in mid summer and yet I have never seen a naked German. But as I said before - they were in the western provinces of the country only.

Stu

[Bob S.]

"By the way - do you REALLY think that the pictures are taken to be artistic?"

stu, has anyone here ever stated that these are high-class artistic pictures? Not all pictures are meant to be artistic pictures. The INA has hundreds of pictures and none of them can be classified as art. Why do you keep up with this argument when it is not even an issue?

As I said, these pictures are for a specific audience: men, textile men.

"I suspect what this woman was being aroused by was the cash she'd get paid for exposing herself."

What would that be called? The sexual gratification caused by avarice?

"Supposedly, the young women in the pictures get a sexual rush from going naked in a public setting--not a naturist setting, but one in which nakedness is unexpected."

OK, so you are going to believe everything that you read on the internet, Jochanaan? Since it is the type of site that you are saying it is, the webmasters are of course going to exaggerate or lie to get more of a reaction out of its intended audience. After all, men who subscribe to this site would prefer women who are sexually aroused by what they are doing.

Now big question: if this were a non-paying site and just showed all kinds of people naked like those pictures show, would it still be porn? Would those pics be porn if they were on a public nudity site that talked about a specific organized public events? stu?

Bob S.

[Outlaw]

Does anyone here remember a full length movie made in the late 60s or early 70s by Candid Cameraman Allen Funt titled "What do you say to a naked woman/lady?" Quite daring for the era to include full frontal shots, etc.

Mike

[Rex]

Hi Outlaw Mike,

I've got a copy. Very entertaining and informative.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YA79.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

"WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A NAKED LADY is basically a risqu? "Candid Camera" episode stretched out to feature length with, um, lots of full-frontal action from both genders.

But that's not (really) the interesting part. It's a fascinating glimpse into the public's newly relaxed attitude towards sex, circa the sexual revolution, covering the public's opinion towards everything from public nudity to interracial dating. Truly a time capsule, with wildly varied reactions from a cross-section of Americans - racial, ethnic and age differences are all included.

The most revealing segment was the one with the college instructor. (Do I need to mention she was naked?) Interesting that the "mature" older women were reduced to giggling schoolgirls while the young students kept their poise. Or were both groups aware of the ruse but the elders weren't compelled to respect authority as the kids may have been?

Anyway, my favorite victim was the woman who kept her cool while chatting with the nude male model. Loved her reaction when the jig was up. What a stitch." [End of review.]


It also has a catchy theme song written by Steve Karmen. I haven't been able to find the lyrics on the net.

I've also got a video of a similar, but more cheeky US made program, which I copied off Australian TV a number of years ago. Again, the premise was "most Americans don't know how to handle nudity".

Bob

" has anyone here ever stated that these are high-class artistic pictures?"

By implication, yes. Trailscout stated in relation to these pictures:

"But the smirking tone of your post indicates that you may not have had much tutelage in the visual fine arts, where candid appreciation of the human form is not maligned."

"As I said, these pictures are for a specific audience: men, textile men."

These pictures are aimed at a specific group of men who get off on them, textile or otherwise.

"The sexual gratification caused by avarice?"

Just a desire to make easy cash.

Whether or not something is 'porn' (in the widest sense of the word), depends upon its purpose - i.e. if it is intended to give sexual titilation or gratification. That, I believe, is what this site is all about.

Stu

[Rex]

"These pictures are aimed at a specific group of men who get off on them, textile or otherwise."

It could also be said that opera [which I like myself] is aimed at people who "get off" on it. Or organised sport featuring attractive fit-looking young men and women in skimpy oufits is aimed at etc.

There's nothing wrong with finding something entertaining which is, in itself, harmless.

Men who REALLY want to "get off" as you call it would be expected to go to other very plentiful free sites, including some of those which unfortunately masquerade as nudist/naturist.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Does anyone here remember a full length movie made in the late 60s or early 70s by Candid Cameraman Allen Funt titled "What do you say to a naked woman/lady?" Quite daring for the era to include full frontal shots, etc <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Currently, from Qu?bec, there's a show SexyCam which is basically Candid Camera but with nudity or lingerie being part of the gimmick (eg. person goes into restaurant, is called away for a phone call, comes back and sees everyone else is nude). Not that I've seen every episode, but I do not believe full male frontal nudity is shown. The program typically airs at 9:30 PM.

BTW, I happened to be in the U.S. and one of the hotel channels was advertising videos of SexyCam but the clips they showed did not include any nudity. Then at the end, the announcer said there was a bonus video with clips so naughty they could not be shown on TV. Since the "naughty" bits are shown on broadcast Canadian TV, I made not the cultural nuance.

Alan Funt once made an "R" rated version of Candid Camera, which had total nudity in it that caused different reactions in different people, and it DID show full frontal male nudity.

[Bob S.]

"Trailscout stated in relation to these pictures:"

"But the smirking tone of your post indicates that you may not have had much tutelage in the visual fine arts, where candid appreciation of the human form is not maligned."

I think he was suggesting that your lack of appreciation for the nude human figure is a hindernace to your judgement about what is generally considered porn. I don't think he was comparing these pics to works of art. But then, Trail would know best.

"These pictures are aimed at a specific group of men who get off on them, textile or otherwise."

Men who have seen naked women would be far less likely to see these pics in sexual ways than men who rarely, if ever, have seen a naked woman.

"Whether or not something is 'porn' (in the widest sense of the word), depends upon its purpose"

So I will ask my question again, and answer it using your own bush-beating. If these pics were on a website that talked about public nudity, and were not memebrship-based, then would they still be considered porn? I will take it that your answer is no.

If a catalogue that sold children's clothes were out, the pics of the models inside would be fine, but if someone took the underwear and bathing suit pics out and posted them on a website that showed only children in bathing suits and underwear, would these pics then be considered porn?

Bob S.

[Trailscout]

Bob, I have not seen the photos in question, but I am aware of some nude photography that positions a nude in a public setting. I do regard that as art. Not my cup of tea, but I take it as a form of symbolic language, visual imagery.

Most of what I have seen is not intended to provoke lust, just a sense of whimsy or pathos.

I have no idea whether the photos Stu is referring to are in poor taste, intended to seduce, etc. I haven't seen them. I simply wanted to say that outdoor nude photography is not necessarily porn.

There are some bizzare fetishes out there and I suppose that images of naked women at bus stops or laundromats must drive some fellows into a purple frenzy of desire. I cannot share their enthusiasm.

[Bob S.]

"I have no idea whether the photos Stu is referring to are in poor taste, intended to seduce, etc."

I would not call them in poor taste. But stu does for the simple reason that they are of naked women. The pics I would not regard as art but rather more akin to pictures taken by your average Joe of people in a street or by journalists.

The site is set up so that these pics are the teasers that bring you into joining the site to see more pics like that. As I mentioned to stu, men who are used to seeing naked women would not pay to see these mundane pictures. Men who rarely get to see women's nudity are more likely to pay.

"I simply wanted to say that outdoor nude photography is not necessarily porn."

Of that I totally agree.

Bob S.

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
"Supposedly, the young women in the pictures get a sexual rush from going naked in a public setting--not a naturist setting, but one in which nakedness is unexpected."

OK, so you are going to believe everything that you read on the internet, Jochanaan? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of course not! That's why I said "supposedly"! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My point was that these pictures--assuming that the ones who said they took them actually did--were never intended to increase nudity's broad acceptance, but only to encourage people to pay the site's creators money for a little gratification. And the accompanying text only encourages the wrong-headed notion that nudity equals sex.

Good nudity? Hardly.

[davy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Outlaw:
Does anyone here remember a full length movie made in the late 60s or early 70s by Candid Cameraman Allen Funt titled "What do you say to a naked woman/lady?" Quite daring for the era to include full frontal shots, etc.

Mike <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I saw the movie around 1970 or 1971 and thoroughly enjoyed it. Does anybody know if a video was ever made and is it in any stores? I'd sure like to watch it again. Of course it was rated "X", ever though there was nothing sexual in it that I can recall. Figures.

[Rex]

Yes davy, it is on video, but possibly hard to get.

Have a look at my post on this thread dated 22.5.04.

[missouriboy]

I saw that Funt movie about then also, right here in my small town. It wasn't rated X here though, because it was shown at the drive-in, where X-rated movies were never shown. I thought it was extremely bold, though, and enjoyed it. And I wasn't a nudist then, just a curious wannabe.

[Desert Tours Dave]

There is too versions. The original theatrical release was 'X' (very silly) but then it was editied to a 'R'. I've only seen the 'R' version available on video. It available through Amazon.com.

[Jochanaan]

Is it out on DVD?

The one I saw had a scene where a nude woman with a purse held in front of her, but with her breasts in full view, was hiking on a country road. I think she had shoes on. An old guy on a tractor gave her a ride and didn't bat an eye at her nudity.

Another scene was in an ("artist's) studio. Women came to apply for a job and were asked to sit and wait. A man (the model) in a bathrobe walks out, removes his robe and sits down on a chair, facing the woman. It was hilarious seeing the women's reactions. Most of them got up and walked out, only one didn't. He asked her if she would like him to cover up. Her reply was "Huh! Suit yourself." I got the impression she didn't want him to cover up and liked the view, but she didn't want to say yes or no.

[Desert Tours Dave]

There are also scenes where women are asked to wait in a lobby where there is 'supposedly' a lifesized nude, male, statue on a table between the chairs. The women don't paid it any attention until a phone rings and the 'statue' bends over and answers it. Most of them then ran out of the room.

Funt staged two classroom scenes. In the first a nude woman enters a high school classroom and begins a lecture about erogenous zones. There is some tittering, but overall the students accept it and participate. Then, the scene is repeated for the students parents... There is sceaming and some run out of the room!

I haven't found a DVD version, but it is worth looking for, even if there is a bit too much discussion at some points.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif