Vanishing English

[nacktman]

English has many words and phrases that have all but vanished completely.

Why not revive a few?

Here's one to start with.
Does anyone know the meaning of the phrase: Butterfly's Kiss?

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

And English speakers don't use the subjunctive mood as much any more--certainly not compared to speakers of other Indo-European languages.
And it's tough to find someone--particularly here in America--who has mastered all the possible nuances of shall and will.
If someone insists on it: "You shall have the file of documents by Friday" (meaning they will make sure you receive them) instead of "You will have the file of documents on Friday" (i.e., you will, by some method, be in possession of the file by Friday) many people will think they just sound a little affected.

Peace,
Kevin

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
English has many words and phrases that have all but vanished completely.

Why not revive a few?

Here's one to start with.
Does anyone know the meaning of the phrase: Butterfly's Kiss? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back in the day's of Junior High School awakenings and spin the bottle parties, a butterfly kiss was when the couple put their face together so that their eyelashes touched, then one would rapidly fliker their eyelashes against their partners...hence the butterfly kiss.

[nacktman]

Dang it usmc1, I was hoping for a little bit more time afore the answer was given.

Oh, well ... how about Fish-whole, any one have a clue as to what it means?

Or, mayhaps, what you are doing when you Ramjollock?

[tiger79]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Or, mayhaps, what you are doing when you Ramjollock? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Shuffling cards, of course. Everyone in England uses that word! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

But nobody says "mayhaps"...

[nacktman]

Darnation tiger, I guess English isn't as vanishing as some thought!

Still got "Fish-whole" in the wind though, folks.

Perchance does any know what you are doing when engaged in "Crotch-trolling"? (And, no it doesn't mean that, either!)

[nekkidincville]

would the "FISH-WHOLE" be that particular hole an norweigan hope to catch the big one while sitting on a stool in a shanty all day in freezing temps??? haa haa http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/annoyed.gif

Is that fish hole?

There is no such word in any dictionaries I have for fish-whole.

Allie

[danorganic]

Going back to the one before, there is a song on the radio about butterfly kisses. The dad is singing about his little girl growing up.

[nacktman]

Fish-whole is a proper English term albeit one that has vanished from everyday venacular.

No, it is not Fish-hole.
As a matter of fact it has nothing to do with fishing, well almost nothing, anyway. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Any other thoughts as to what it means?

Don't forget about Crotch-trolling.
What do you suppose that means?

[nacktman]

All right folks, it appears no one knows the meaning of Fish-whole and Crotch-trolling, so here are the meanings:

FISH-WHOLE means to be healthy.

CROTCH-TROLLING means to go fishing and wading into the water.

So how about "Cocture"? Does anyone have clue as to its meaning?

[nacktman]

I guess "Cocture" is a stumper!

[NakedGary]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cocture </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the dictionary but this come up in a search.

Link to search on "Cocture" (http://song2play.com/s/spaghetti_western-8818/do_right_by_people-28215/sullivan_ferry__cocture1860-367093.html)

[nacktman]

Gary, 'Cocture' is an old English (read: Breton/Britain), term from the Roman period taken from Latin that was used up until the mid 17th century meaning "to cook".

[nacktman]

How about a "Musard"?

Anyone ... ideas what that one means?

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

"Musard"
...a dreamer, absent-minded person.(www.thefreedictionary.com)

Musard--- I think that -ard suffix is a little dated to many modern ears in many cases (but coward is still contemporary and maybe some other examples). In an older English style manual (I forgot which--probably Fowler's)
I read that "drunkard" was much better English than calling someone a "drunk". But that was written quite a while ago.
Peace,
Kevin

[usmc1]

Here's one father's man used to describe the stableman, "Skybald".

[kphoger]

you're all just a bunch of blatherscythes!

BRING BACK THE SUBJUNCTIVE.

and i'm with you on the will/shall issue.
have you heard the joke about that one?

a frenchman fell overboard. he swam and swam until he could swim no longer. just at the end of his strength, he came within sight of an english fishing boat. he shouted, "i will drown, and no one shall save me!" so no one did.

if you get it, i award you six gold starts. if you don't get it, don't worry: you're not alone!

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

In "The King's English" H. G. and F. W. Fowler give many users of the English Language a good thrashing for more than dubious usages of shall and will (such as many, many contributors to the Times of London, as well as W. B. Yeats, and ARthur Conan Doyle and many others).
This passage from Samuel Johnson's "Rasselas" is offered as exemplary english as far as "shall
and will" are concerned:

"I would injure no man, and should provoke no resentment; I would relieve every distress, and should enjoy the benedictions of gratitude. I would choose my friends among the wise, and my wife among the virtuous; and therefore should be in no danger from treachery or unkindness. My children should by my care be learned and pious, and would repay to my age what their childhood had received."

But, personally I've always found the Fowlers' chapter on this subject pretty tough reading every time I try to get through it. The chapter on shall/will and should/would in the appendix of Wilson Follet's "Modern American Usage" is, I think, a little less complicated but about as comprehensive.
Then there's the chapter in The American Heritage Book of English Usage wihich is not much more than three or four paragraphs long and the compilers have basically scattered most of the fussiness of the past to the four winds. But for those of us who spend most of our time in the real world dealing with U.P.S. drivers, Telemarketers, bus drivers, traffic cops, lovers, friends or spouses, I think the American Heritage just about hits the spot!

But what was my excuse to begin with? Well, when I was in junior high school the Sony Walkman was invented quite some time before I heard of the Fowlers or Samuel Johnson.

Peace,
Kevin

[Swimguy]

Originally posted by nacktman:
Dang it usmc1, I was hoping for a little bit more time afore the answer was given.
________________________________________________

Apparently you have never heard the cheesy song caled Butterfly Kisses. It is so saccharine it makes me sick, but it is quite popular with certain women.

[nacktman]

You're right swimguy, I never heard of the song 'Butterfly Kisses' I tend to listen only to good music.

Kevin that was quick, the 'ard' suffix is the most correct English (something we Southerners use right regularly --- but don't tell them Yankees edumacted by that Conneticutt Teacher's College mispronounciation of English that sent all them school marm's out west in the latter half of the nineteenth century --they's think they speak proper, they do!)

Wanna try 'Billatory'?
What the heck is that?

[usmc1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
You're right swimguy, I never heard of the song 'Butterfly Kisses' I tend to listen only to good music.

Kevin that was quick, the 'ard' suffix is the most correct English (something we Southerners use right regularly --- but don't tell them Yankees edumacted by that Conneticutt Teacher's College mispronounciation of English that sent all them school marm's out west in the latter half of the nineteenth century --they's think they speak proper, they do!)

Wanna try 'Billatory'?
What the heck is that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Billatory..Isn't that what they decided to do after our revolution? Jefferson said, "How in the name of screaming, living hell are we going to pay for all this?"

Hancock replied, "Make the Loyalists pay".

"Just the thing", Franklin laughed, "Just bill a Tory".

But John Adams, always a tad overweight, was feeling liverish and a bit billatory just hrumphed and left the room.

[nfstan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
You're right swimguy, I never heard of the song 'Butterfly Kisses' I tend to listen only to good music.

Kevin that was quick, the 'ard' suffix is the most correct English (something we Southerners use right regularly --- but don't tell them Yankees edumacted by that Conneticutt Teacher's College mispronounciation of English that sent all them school marm's out west in the latter half of the nineteenth century --they's think they speak proper, they do!)

Wanna try 'Billatory'?
What the heck is that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Billatory..Isn't that what they decided to do after our revolution? Jefferson said, "How in the name of screaming, living hell are we going to pay for all this?"

Hancock replied, "Make the Loyalists pay".

"Just the thing", Franklin laughed, "Just bill a Tory".

But John Adams, always a tad overweight, was feeling liverish and a bit billatory just hrumphed and left the room. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm inclined to get billatory if my finances are at a low ebb.

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

On the subject of "billatory," I think we might just have to take usmc and nfstan's word for it.

I looked in my paperback edition of the American Heritage Dictionary: nothing there.

I've misplaced the complete edition of the Oxford English Dictionary that I got for thirty dollars when I once joined the Book of the Month Club twenty years ago (You know the one with the whole thing condensed into two thick volumes of microfilm-sized fine print--after I spend any amount of time looking in it I usually have to return to the eye doctor for a new prescription.)
But I could wait until I get a chance to look at the O.E.D. at the local library.

I did a cursory search on the internet and the closest thing I came up with was Ballatore Spumante wine. And my opinion on what you can find on the internet is, well, just about everything you never even thought of information-wise--and end up quoting Uma Thurman in "Pulp Fiction": "a little bit more information than I need to know" (and you can raise that quotation to the nth power!).
So there is a remote chance the word may not exist.

Yet one more theory--it's one of those words like "hellacious" that is situated somewhere between everyday useful English and clever slang words that are used simply to spice up a conversation.

But if it is an actual living breathing word here's my own impromptu hypothesis: the latin suffix -ator has to do with some form of activity or occupation: orator, viator, aviator, or dominatrix. And -atory produces an adjectival derivation from the word.

The modern english word "bill" comes to us from the Mediaeval Latin "bulla" (a seal on a document): so, usmc and nfstan might be on to something.
But the word "bile" (which Usmc was referring to in his account of John Adams' disposition) comes from the classical latin "bilis". There is also "bill" as in a duck's bill, but that is derived from the Old English "bile", and I'm sure authorities on English usage would object as strongly as possible to this melding of Old English with a latin suffix. But this would of course be a most exemplary example of a properly "hellacious" usage of "Billatory!"

One more idea, Nacktman, are you positive about the spelling? Or else have you been speaking a lot of the best southern American English with some of the best Southern American "drunkards" lately.

But until further developments, as regards "billatory" I suggest that we all remain "dilatory."

Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

While you all have some good ideas about what Billatory is (and yes, Kevin, I am sure of the spelling), you haven't quite got it.

It is merely a term used for a restless bovine of the male variety ... a frisky bull in other words. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Shall we try "CALLIFUDGE"?

Any thoughts as to what that may mean?

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Ahh, but is it (billatory), therefore a specimen of "barnyard' English?

Or is it part of International Standardized English which you have as good a chance of hearing down in San Diego, California (not much more than a fifteen minute's drive into Tijuana, Mexico) as you would in Boston, Massachusetts.
And is it comprehensible in London, Belfast, and in Sydney--and can I use it during the phone calls I get from the English Speakers working in
the Information Processing Industry in India?
That's why I think you were throwin' us someting of a curve ball--or else something like some of the "San Fernando Valley" words you here in Moon Zappa's song "Valley girl".

Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

Well, Kevin you must remember a 'pitcher' has many types of pitches to throw and he IS trying to get the ball passed the batter, now isn't he?!

Oh and yes you could hear the term used near San Diego (or at least a few years back when it was more rural you could), don't know about London (they don't comprehend English there anyway only Londonese), but Belfast, Glasgow and Sydney most definately.
As for India, well, they don't understand modern standardized English very well, much less an older term as Billatory (Ghandi did know the term though and he used it in several speeches, then again he was born in the 19th century when it was more prevalent).

[usmc1]

Ah beg ta differ, y'awl.

Billatory: Found by Herr Googlemeister.
At the patents online site

"Medical devices and methods are provided for electrical stimulation of neural tissue and controlled ... gastrointestinal disorders, and billatory disorders"

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Well, Kevin you must remember a 'pitcher' has many types of pitches to throw and he IS trying to get the ball passed the batter, now isn't he?!

Oh and yes you could hear the term used near San Diego (or at least a few years back when it was more rural you could), don't know about London (they don't comprehend English there anyway only Londonese), but Belfast, Glasgow and Sydney most definately.
As for India, well, they don't understand modern standardized English very well, much less an older term as Billatory (Ghandi did know the term though and he used it in several speeches, then again he was born in the 19th century when it was more prevalent). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, usmc, nfstan and I came up with similar results as far as "Billatory" is concerned so you might be trying to play the All Star Game among linguistic little leaguers.

But callifudge was a snap on the internet:
argybarple.katgyrl.com/2004_08_01_argybarple_archive.html

"callifudge": trick, hoax, swindle. (Francis Taylor's Folk Speech of South Lancashire).

And they could probably find that one in India. But as for "billatory" I'll bet the folks on
the subcontinent would be more likely to settle for a case of that fizzy, muscat-scented "Ballatore!"

Peace,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

Ok, how 'bout these five words:

1. regginbrow

2. wielderfight

3. ringsome

4. pftjschute

5. mumper

Or as least can any one name the famous novel in which they all appear on the first page?

Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

Kevin, they bring to mind a tome by that Carrol fellow.

Ah the Jabberwok!

And usmc1, I'm not using google here but the 10th collection on "Forgotten English" by Jeffery Kacirk from his work "Altered English" available at any bookstore. The work traces words and phrases from the distant past to the present and how they have been used and some all but forgotten.

Care to try "CROYN"?

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

'brillig, slithy toves, vorpal....yes all the work of that Carrol fellow. The novel I'm picking words from was in part inspired by some intense study of Dodgson's Alice books----but this one is a far, far, deeper rabbit hole.
Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

Kevin, I best put on my 'thinking cap' and study on those words a mite and try and remember the novel shouldn't I? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/yes.gif

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

In the meantime, while you brought up the subject of Lewis Carroll, is there anyone out there with anything to say on the subject of "cucumber frames?" (Beyond chapter 4 in which the white rabbit may or may not have fallen on "something of the sort").

Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

Ok, with a name like Kevin you must have a'touch o'th Irish in ye and ye be trying to pull the wool over these ol'Scots eyes.

Them words be from a tome by that other fellow what have a lassie's name, Joyce, in what he calls Finnigan's Wake.
Now tae ye Irish it'd be a colleen's nae a lassie's name though. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

(Lucky for me my computer is in my library and my collection is readily available, but with the 'organiztion' or shall I say lack of it in said library finding that particular tome so quickly was sort of a miracle. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif)

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Ok, with a name like Kevin you must have a'touch o'th Irish in ye and ye be trying to pull the wool over these ol'Scots eyes.

Them words be from a tome by that other fellow what have a lassie's name, Joyce, in what he calls Finnigan's Wake.
Now tae ye Irish it'd be a colleen's nae a lassie's name though. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

(Lucky for me my computer is in my library and my collection is readily available, but with the 'organiztion' or shall I say lack of it in said library finding that particular tome so quickly was sort of a miracle. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I don't want to be the cause of anybody losing any sleep over the precise definition of those words. Just crack open the old piggy bank and go to Amazon.com for a copy of Roland McHugh's "Annotations to Finnegans Wake" (copies are starting at $23)---I think that's the usual response to the book other than simply throwing one's hands up in despair!

Peace,
Kevin

[earthpassenger(Kevin)]

"croyn"--I just about ran out of internet time today before I came across a reference to that one. I didn't have time to actually locate it in this site: www.oyskr.com/bloghoster/?w=stepan (http://www.oyskr.com/bloghoster/?w=stepan)
But the search listing said I would find that it meant "to cry as deer do at rutting time."
Otherwise search "croyn" and you get almost nothing but surnames. (Or words in foreign languages I have no familiarity with.)
Peace,
Kevin

[nacktman]

Ok, what about "Cucupha"?

What does that word mean?

[nfstan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
Ah beg ta differ, y'awl.

Billatory: Found by Herr Googlemeister.
At the patents online site

"Medical devices and methods are provided for electrical stimulation of neural tissue and controlled ... gastrointestinal disorders, and billatory disorders" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that the medical term would more properly be "biliatory", akin to "bilious".

[kphoger]

y'all would be proud of me. i recently constructed the clause:

Well, in our internetty, automobilious society, such chorographic nitpicking is naught but frivolous niggling anyway...

i like putting old words with new words, and throwing in some obscure ones for the fun of it.

[nacktman]

Telegony has anyone got an idea what this could be?

[harveym]

I recommend Gene Wolf's 'The Shadow of the Torturer'. He uses obscure words to give the feeling of a different language.
For example, what is a gallipot and how would you describe a fuligen cloak?

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Telegony has anyone got an idea what this could be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes: Telegony : Telephone Agony - the pain caused in others by people who constantly talk on their cell phones in public.

ok, not really.

The Telegony - a lost epic in the Greek Trojan Cycle.

Also:

It is why a woman who is raped or unchaste is forever ruined.

But not really. It is the false doctrine of 'infectious heredity'. I.E. a young white woman lies with a 'unpure' dark skinned fellow, and forevermore risks having babies with her subsequent proper white husband who are tainted with the rough darkies' attributes. Very popular among racists.

Also ... "tele" is the Greek root for distant or from afar, while the suffix "gony" means a system dealing with origins, birth or beginnings. So it could also mean something along the lines of distant origins , perhaps similar to exogenesis or panspermia.

Not obscure enough - lots of Google hits!

-Mark

[nacktman]

Well, Mark, I must say some interesting tidbits there.
The last one was close to the reference for the term I was looking for ... The belief that the previous (husband, partner, mate. etc.) had influnce in the makeup of the progeny of a woman sired by her current (husband, partner, mate, etc.) vis - a - vis character traits and facial features and so forth. Where do you think the phrase, "You look just like (insert name here)" when on is referencing physical resemblences of an individual to another unrelated individual comes from.

harveym, ok I'll bite, just what IS gallipot and how WOULD you describe a fuligen cloak?!

And while we're at it, does anyone know what URE is?
Hint: If'n yer Celtic an' dinna know, then ye nae Celtic, only pretendin' tae bea. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smash.gif

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And while we're at it, does anyone know what URE is?
Hint: If'n yer Celtic an' dinna know, then ye nae Celtic, only pretendin' tae bea. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are ye speakin' of the Ure River, tha valley or tha meanin o' the word itself? If ahm not mistakin' it refers to the good fertile earth or that which is most holy. Eire http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[shomymojo]

Here's one to start with.
Does anyone know the meaning of the phrase: Butterfly's Kiss?[/QUOTE]

Back in the day's of Junior High School awakenings and spin the bottle parties, a butterfly kiss was when the couple put their face together so that their eyelashes touched, then one would rapidly fliker their eyelashes against their partners...hence the butterfly kiss.[/QUOTE] ...thats the way I remember it too...especially at the "teentown" dances after the football games each week...WOW..I was fascinated by those tight sweaters..that all the girls wore...LOL

[Ewan M]

I know what a Glasgow Kiss is.

That is where you get headbutted in a fight.

I don't recommend asking for one of those.

--------------------

An Eskimo Kiss is where you rub noses together.

--------------------

Is ure not the guy who bend spoons by thinking about it

[nacktman]

Me an' me kith an' kin think these forums be benighted wit' th' farliest o' farlies.

[nacktman]

URE be the Myst o'Scotland ... that which is sacred: the soil, the time between times, the very air ...