Can someone be nudist and hired as a church pastor?

[Jerry C.]

I've been a Seventh-day Adventist church member for 25 years (and a Baptist one for about one year before that). I got into nudism via my interest in bodybuilding. I started out looking at non-sexual nude images of men who are bodybuilders because I thought they look better than the clothed models (more artistically pleasing). I'm very much straight, understand.

Anyway,while looking for these pics, I came across links to nudism and nudist websites. I really didn't pay any attention until I hit "Christian nudist" sites. I was very curious and as I started to look at non-sexual pics of men, women, and children at these sites I became more interested.

I continued to study and became a nudist in philosophy early this year (2002). I haven?t gone to any resorts, beaches or anything yet (not a nudism in practice-yet. I hope to change this shortly). I tried to for my vacation to Atlanta, GA but it didn't work out. Therefore, I decided to go to a nudist resort next summer of 2003.

However, everything came to a head when it was announced that a man in my church was selected as a deacon was going to be ordained. I thought that was strange because I was serving as deacon for about a year and I was not ordained. So when I asked my pastor (whom I'll call Pastor John) about it, he said they do it right away. The reason it wasn't done was because there were many things going on when I became deacon and my ordination was not being done.

I thought and prayed as to whether to tell Pastor John about my interest in nudism and finally decided to tell him. So I made an appointment for him to come to my house and tell him personally face-to-face. His wife (whom I'll call Jane) came along also. When I told him, he disagreed but fortunately, he didn't overreact. In fact, he and Jane listened calmly. They were shocked but didn't condemn me, only disagreed strongly. What helped me was that he, Jane and I were good friends since I've started attending his church.

Pastor John told me very plainly that if I pursued nudism the following would happen:
1. I wouldn't be ordained as deacon.
2. I would be disqualified to teach as Sabbath School (equal to Sunday School) teacher.
3. I would hold the office of church photographer unofficially instead of officially.
4. He didn't say, but I would probably hold the office of bulletin coordinator in unofficial instead of official status.

The other thing that stresses me out is that God has called me to be a preacher for the deaf in the USA. I know I can go to school and get a BA or BS in theology (with deaf ministry emphasis), then go to my church seminary.

However, the burning question is: Will I be hired by any church because of my nudist viewpoint?

Now you know a little about my background to explain my situation. Can you help me? Any suggestions? Thanks.

Jerry, I've been a Christian for 39 years since age 17, and I only just last year got into social nudity. From what I've read in God's Word, it says nothing against social nudity. I'm a Baptist by the way, and I've been to Bible college and have a degree in Christian education.

I've held every position in a church except that of pastor. Of course, none of my brothers and sisters in the Lord know that I'm a practicing nudist. I go to the Turtle Lake Resort in Union City, MI.

Unfortunately, as long as it's known that you hold to the belief that social nudism isn't sinful, you more than likely won't be allowed to hold offices in your church, and they won't allow you to be ordained.

Of course, as long as you haven't actually gone to a nudist club, resort or beach, and you simply believe that God's greatest creation, the human body, isn't sinful or something to be ashamed of, I don't understand why that belief should matter. Unfortunately, it will to the uninformed. When I divorced my adulterous wife, I was condemned by the deacons who wanted me removed as the music director. The pastor was the only one who knew why I was divorced, and he stood up for me. I remained as the music director. I never felt I had to justify myself to anyone. God knew the truth and so did my pastor.

To the majority of Christians, and even to the majority of people in general, social nudity is something decent people don't do. I've shocked and embarrassed a lot of people when I've told them of being a nudist or even hinted at it. I've never gotten up the courage to tell anyone in my church, although I ALMOST told the pastor once.

I got an answer I needed from God once through prayer and fasting. I didn't eat for three days until He answered me. You could always try that.

[luvnaturism]

There are several ironies here. One of them is that your problem only arose because you acted with high integrity to discuss your interest with your pastor. Another is that the more literally one interprets the Bible the easier it is to find support for naturism.

Sadly the pastor reacted as many Christians do: condemning an idea that was new to him, and concerning which he has probably not actually studied the Scriptures.

On the other hand your goal is ordained ministry, which probably means that you would like to be supported financially by those you serve. One of the generally expected functions of a minister who lives by the gifts of others is that the minister embodies their values. Controversial behavior thus becomes dangerous to a career, even when it is others who are wrong.

It seems to me that you have several options here. One of them would be to make a fresh start in another church, having learned that one must be extremely cautious about selecting people who can be trusted to hear about your beliefs related to naturism. Another option would be to assure your pastor that, although you are convinced that naturism is acceptable for Christians, because of your respect for the church you will not practice or teach it.

Between those two extremes you can find other possibilities. One would be to assure your pastor that you want your life to be Biblically based. Ask for his help in understanding how the Bible teaches that non-sexual nudity is wrong. You can bring to this study passages that support it.

The thing is with this plan you must not be argumentative, but stay in the role of a seeker of Biblical truth...which is truly quite appropriate for one at your beginning stage of ministry.

As you have already discovered there are a lot of resources on the Web. Here is a forum where a lot of help is available:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/83405.

There is an associated web site with many good articles and links.

Finally, the truth is that leaders have fewer options than followers. Every minister ? every good leader ? gives up things that would be perfectly legitimate for the sake of those he or she is leading. The tricky part is that you have to be careful not to give up too much of yourself in the process.

[californiabare]

I'm new here and have seen the message about pastors and nudism. Like some of you, I am a Christian, have been for years--and a Baptist all that time. For years, I was taught nudism was a sin---equalled with lust and sexuality. I have since then realized that 1) God made my body; 2) there's no shame in nakedness; 3) I can present my body as a living sacrifice to Him on a daily basis.

As to the question of pastors being nudists, I can only say I know of at least two of them in California, and have heard of others across the country. I even heard (through Christian-nudist Yahoo group) that even fellowship and worship can take place while being au naturel.

So if a pastor is comfortable with nudity and recognizes our natural state as Godly, then I think he can be a spiritual leader of his congregation.

By the way, I'm in the north central valley of California, and would welcome the opportunity for some Christian fellowship au naturel. Anyone reading this who lives in this area is free to contact me at my e-mail address.

God bless you.
Tom

[luvnaturism]

Californiabare makes some good points.

It's true that there are many pastors who are naturists. However, their numbers are only a small percentage of the whole, and nearly all of them find it wise to practice their naturism with great discretion. It really is a hot topic in religious circles.

The original post in this thread is from one who is not yet a minister, but who wants to become one. That is a vulnerable position. He is absolutely dependent upon being able to get recommendations from established clergy. Probably he will be seeking references from ministers who have neither personal experience nor serious research to draw upon, and so their reactions will be based upon their own sexualized imaginations.

[Jerry C.]

Sorry, this was deleted. I apparently clicked ont he "post reply" button because my next post below is the exact same thing, only not finished.

I'm new at this forum stuff, so bare with me.

[Jerry C.]

Thank you all for your replies. I was thinking since I put up my original post last night that I really need to explain a little more background so ya'll will understand my response.

What happened with me is that I accepted Christ as my Savior at 15 years old. For a while there I was doing what must baby Christians do: reading the Bible to understand basic doctrines, praying, and witnessing as best I could. It was not until about my early 20s did I feel a calling to the ministry, but I resisted with all my might. Looking back, I realized I didn't understand God's character and His love for me. So I tried to "do my own thing" for years and for the same number of years I've been spiritually frustrated. This resulted in a Laodicean state (neither hot for God nor cold to Him either).

Everything came to a head when I went up to Ontario, Canada from my home state of Michigan to work for a friend of mine, Kathy, who was a Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) also. This was in August, 1994 This job was to be a retirement home manager in a live-in setting. I thought that this job would be the best one I ever had: it wasn't. In fact, it was the very WORST job I EVER had. How bad? We're talking considering suicide three times in the two years I worked for Kathy. Why was it so bad? Because she was verbally abusive to the point that we had a co-dependant relationship.

I was finally able to break free of her mental bondage via her brother Wally. You see, Wally used to be Kathy's partner in the original retirement home and he left Kathy's biz out of disgust for her way of running things. So he helped me to rebel in one form or another and I finally left her and her business after two and half years in September of 1997. I then went to work for Wally and his brother Paul (also Kathy's brother) to work at their retirement lodge they started together. After working for them two years, their business closed and I left to return to the US. I found out while working for Wally and Paul that Kathy's biz closed up one year after I left. I knew that was going to happen and it did. Interestingly, I worked two years for her and she hired two other people (one then another) who only lasted about six months each in that last year of her business. Why did I have to go thru all this? Because of my stubborn resistance to doing God?s will.

Anyway, after I arrived in Arkansas in Feb, 1999, it felt so wonderful to enjoy the complete freedom of being in my own country and being able to move about freely. That summer of 1999, I finally accepted God's call to be a minister of the deaf. I never felt such incredible peace. I was doing fine until the whole deacon thing happen that I mentioned in my first post.

So, I've decided that even though I like the nudist philosophy of body acceptance and the other wonderful things that go with that, I've decided NOT to pursue nudism as a lifestyle. Why? for the simple reason that instead of "fighting God", I'm fighting societal expectations and I'm afraid I'll be for the rest of life like I did the first half. I'm almost 42, and I'm tired of fighting God (which I think I'll be doing indirectly via the textile majority view of nudism which is seen as "sin", "evil", or "shameful"-when it is NONE of these things).

One finally reason I'm not pursuing nudism is that I sense that most nudist are non-believers and the Bible plainly states not to associate with them (2 Cor. 6:14).

If you are reading this and disagree, please reply because I'm still open for discussion. As a female friend of mine told me: "For a man, you're a good listener." From a woman, that was a wonderful complement.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry C.:

One finally reason I'm not pursuing nudism is that I sense that most nudist are non-believers and the Bible plainly states not to associate with them (2 Cor. 6:14).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>With great respect I encourage you to reconsider the above opinion with the following two thoughts in mind:

1. I have never been in a naturist venue without finding other Christians. If you actually went to some you might find that there seem to be Christians at these places at not less than the ratio that they are found in general society. You have a serious misconception here.

2. If the verse you quoted is the only verse you are able to find re: the desired relationship between Christians and society, then you will have a severely limited ministry.

This is not to suggest that you should change your mind. It sounds as though you have made the decision that is right for you. However, this particular statement reveals that you have much yet to learn about both naturism and the Bible.

[gamblefish]

Hi Jerry,



Let me add a thought to all this. I commend you for "forsaking all" to follow the call of God on your life. After all, that is what we Christians are supposed to do.



Having said that, let me say this: That does not mean we have to sacrifice every "earthly" thing that brings us joy. But each individual must "work out his own salvation", and what God allows one He may not allow another.



This is what I believe: Follow your calling. Let your desires be known to God. If He is willing for you to be involved in a nudist lifestyle then He will work it out in His own time and way. I'm sure you know that God has a way of bringing things about that we could never begin to accomplish on our own.



Remember Abraham and Isaac. Abraham showed his complete trust in God in his willingness to sacrifice his beloved son. And of course Abraham did not have to give up his son at all...


Jesus, too, gave up his physical life because he trusted that God would raise Him up to an eternal spiritual life.
Whatever you decide...keep Christ in the center of your life and you can't go wrong.

An example of sacrificing things that are not sinful in order to be able to follow God's calling is in 1 Cor. 8:13. After Paul has stated that eating meat or not eating it makes no difference with God, but in verse 13 of chapter 8 he says, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."

Paul was willing to give up something that wasn't sinful if it offended his brothers in Christ. I'm not sure I would do that when it isn't something sinful. Of course, I haven't told any of my brothers or sisters in Christ about being a nudist.

Jerry, you've decided what is best for you since you want to be ordained. God will bless you for your willingness to sacrifice something in order to be better able to do His will even though I'm sure He sees no sin in social nudity as long as the thoughts are pure. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Trailscout]

Jerry,
I see that you were considering visiting Georgia. Did you know that there is a very old, well-respected school for the deaf in Cave Spring, GA? Many churches in the area serve the deaf community.

If you visit the AANR Web site, you will also see that there are 4 nudist resorts in North Georgia, several non-landed clubs, and one nudist resort in South Georgia. Hidden Valley, in North Georgia has worship services every Sunday morning. Usually not a big crowd, but it was wonderful to be among people who share my belief that God did not make a mistake when he created us nude and that nudity is still our ideal state, (with concessions made to avoid offense or frostbite).

I have also heard that it is against the law in Arkansas to even advocate nudism, much less practice it.

Have you given any prayerful thought to moving to Georgia?

[TXK NUDE]

The callings of God are without repentance...meaning He does not fire you from the calling he has placed on your life. Even though I no longer hold the position or the papers of a pastor, I have been one, and am still called to be a minister. I am also a nudist, raising a nudist family. One of the reasons I relinquished my papers was because of my belief that nudity is not a sin, and because my church/denomination does not support that belief. I am very careful who I tell I am a nudist, especially among church family and associates. Even now, without credentials, I minister in the church, but would probably be ousted entirely if certain people found out, but there are a few that know, and have no problem with it.

Can a minister be a nudist? Yes, but probably not openly, unless you get a congregation that is very understanding, or full of nudists too! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have been trying for a year now to start a Christian Nudist Club in my area, without too much success on the Christian part. Unfortunately, there do not seem to be too many of us in my area--though there seems to be a large amount in Georgia! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

While I'm not ashamed of being a nudist any more than I'm ashamed of being a Christian, I can openly tell everyone that I'm a Christian while I cannot tell everyone that I'm a nudist. People who would reject me because I'm a Christian are people with whom I can't have Christian fellowship anyway. Therefore, I would have very little in common with them. I can have Christian fellowship with other Christians even though they don't beleive in open nudity. If I tell other Christians that I'm a nudist, I will more than likely be told to leave the church. Yes, there are other Christians who are nudists; I've met a few, but we're in the minority.

If I was rejected for divorcing an adulterous wife, how do you think they would react to finding out I'm a nudist who goes to a nudist resort? Of course, we Christians are just people trying to do what is right. Christian nudists are some of those same people trying to do right while enjoying a lifestyle that is rejected by most Christians as being at best "sinful".

It's easy for other nudists who aren't Christians to say, "You should tell them. You shouldn't be ashamed of being a nudist." It's not a matter of being ashamed of being a nudist. It's a matter of not wanting to admit to doing something that the majority of people, whether Christian or not, consider to be "perverted" or "unnatural". I have told a few people, but they're mostly people I don't know, or they're people at work who I only see at work.

Of course, you can't tell a nudist by looking at them any more than you can tell a Christian by looking at them. I know the Bible says, "By their fruits you will know them." However, there are a lot of people who will say they're NOT a Christian who live better lives than many professing Christians. It's a shame to say that, but it's true. Too many of my fellow Christians are too judgmental and haven't learned the meaning of "Love the brotherhood" in 1 Peter 2:17.

They also haven't learned what some of us Christians have learned, that there is nothing sinful about social nudity, and that there is nothing wrong with Christians enjoying it with other people.

Be nude and have fun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Jerry C.]

Hey Everyone!

This is my last message to this forum period. After I write this, I'm going to cancel my membership here at INA.

I've decided to reject nudism more on the bases that it is incompatible with my becoming a church pastor. The price is just too high to be a Christian AND a nudist.

So thanks for all the responses and my God Bless all of you in your walk with Christ.

Yours in Christ,
Jerry

[Trailscout]

I have friends who are Seventh Day Adventists and one of my grandmothers was too. I have studied their beliefs and I know Adventist culture.

I honestly believe that Jerry could not have even practiced innocent household nudity and served as a pastor of that denomination. There is not a lot in Adventist literature about nudity, but I did pick up that they teach that after Adam and Eve sinned, their physical nakedness literally needed covering just as their sinful souls needed covering by the beginning of animal sacrifice.
Since they believe this, public nudity would be sinful to a typical Adventist.

This denomination, more so than most, puts a lot of social pressure on their members to conform to a tightly prescribed code of conduct. There is a lot of body shame in Adventist culture. I have one friend whose sister-in-law wears a brassiere under her nightgown through the night when she sleeps. She reportedly felt indecently exposed when she tried sleeping the night without a brassiere. She told my friend that she just couldn't enjoy the sensation when her breasts were allowed to move freely underneath her nightgown. I am afraid that such body-shame is especially common in this denomination. Because congregations of this denomination closely monitor each member's behavior and they have several volumes of doctrine to supplement the Bible, one would not be free to take a different viewpoint on this matter, especially one of their leaders.

I go to a church where less pressure to conform is placed on members and we limit our doctrines to what is contained in the Bible.
I have met younger couples at my church who admit in private conversation to having gone to nude beaches. Where I worship, nudity is not advocated, but neither is it condemned and members feel free to visit nudist resorts or go to nude beaches discreetly. Yes, it would be nice if those of us who enjoy nude recreation could be more forthright about it, but we are still wary of a few among us who would not understand.

Jerry never gave a satisfactory reply when someone questioned his decision not to pursue nudism "because I sense that most nudist are non-believers and the Bible plainly states not to associate with them" If that were true, missionaries would abandon work among primitive unbelieving nude tribespeople. The Polynesians and natives of the rainforest in Africa and South America would have been unapproachable because they often went nude and were pagan. The ancient Greeks and Celts of Europe would have been shunned for similar reasons. Need I go on?

I have met Christians at nudist resorts and I have also met people who are not Christian but were sincerely interested in learning about the Christian faith. I am sure that some nudists at some resorts engage in sinful behavior, but I have never felt compelled to participate in anything that compromised my Christian witness. In fact most nudist resorts are rather wholesome friendly places most of the time.

This leaves Jerry with the sad duty of teaching body shame to his children. He will have to pretend that he believes that the human body, God's highest creation, is shameful and must be covered at all times. I am so sorry to hear this.

Jerry has nowhere to go. There is no other denomination at all close to the Adventists in doctrine where he can even contemplate discrete household nudity, much less going to a nude beach.

His only honest option would be to strike out on his own and form a new church that would be more accomodating to the human body in its God-intended nude state.

[TXK NUDE]

or...Jerry could find another denomination/church to minister in. I know, there aren't too many that just openly accept nudist pastors, but there are some who might at least be more lenient in regards to how their minister lives privately, or where he spends his vacations. But you see, denominations are a man-made thing, not a God made thing, and I believe that even though there are several denominations, there is only one God, and He has called men like Jerry and myself to HIS ministry, and that if we cannot minister in one venue, then we must find another in order to fulfill that calling. Jerry's desire may be to minister through the Seventh Day Adventists, but if that door is closed because of his belief that nudism is not a sin, then move to an open door. Paul did, when it was his desire to minister in Asia/Turkey, and the door was closed, but God gave him the Macedonian call, and brought him to a place where he could minister, and do so effectively.

My own pastor reminded me this week that denomintations are just a tool, but the work is the Lord's. If I can't dig a hole with a shovel, then I'll dig it with a spade!

[Jerry C.]

Well, I stand corrected - this is NOT my last post to this thread. I intend to continue this thread because I like the various perspectives given.

Trailscout, in response to your summery of Adventist culture and body acceptance, I'm sorry to say that you are quite right. Adventist culture is one of body shame and sometimes even self-hate of the body. Your response talked about the how, where, who, and when, but not the why. Why are Adventist into body shame so much? I believe it is because of the acceptance of two beliefs:

1. That Christ took a sinless nature (He was different from us so we are suppose to do the best we can in living the Christian life).

2. The Roman Catholic (NOT Biblical) doctrine of original sin. This teaches that when Adam sinned, we all sinned in him. This is the true part. However, this also states that we are all suppose to be guilty and sinners as soon as were born because of what Adam did. This is a lie.

Even though I'm not a naturist, I still believe in body acceptance and as a result, I reject both doctrines above on the following basis:

A. Human nature of Christ
1. This whole taking a sinless nature business flies in the face of both Scripture and logic. If true, then why does the Bible say many times (John 5:19 & 30; 6:38; 7:16; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10 and 24; not to mention the Gethsemane experience - Matt. 26:39; Mark 14:36; and Luke 22:42) that Jesus came to do the Father's will and speak His Father?s words, not His own. This implies a conflict of wills. If He did take a sinless nature, then His struggles throughout life (esp. at Gethsemane) were an acting job or a sham!

2. Rev. 3: 21 says that we are to overcome as He overcame. If the sinless nature theory were true, then Christ conquered by nature, not needing faith or grace as we do. The Bible teaches no such thing. I believe He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature (Rom. 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14-18) and thus needed grace (Luke 2:40 and Hebrews 2:9) just like we do day by day.

B. Original Sin
1. The true part of when Adam sinned, we all sinned (in him) is a biblical doctrine according to the following verses: Romans 5:18 and 1 Cor. 15:22. Almost all agree that what Adam did affected the entire human race ? which is true.

2. What everyone fails to realize (or refuses to consider) is that the same two verses above also state very plainly that what Christ did on the cross also effected the entire human race and more so. Please note Romans 5 the phrase ?much more? is used SIX (6) times (verses 5, 9, 10, 15, 17, and 20) in relation to Christ undoing all that Adam did! Note esp. verse 20: ?. . . .where sin abounded, grace did much more abound;. . . .?!! This is good news!

The conclusion of the matter is that because I know Jesus took my sinful nature upon His sinless nature and struggled as I did, so when I struggle He understands perfectly (Hebrews 2:14-18).. Also, Jesus undid everything Adam did. Therefore, since God places so much value on us in general and our bodies in particular, I will accept my body the way it is because He accepts me for who I am. Because of the above, I can accept other people for who they are for the same reason. This is the theological reason for my being into body acceptance.

You're certainly having a difficult time dealing with reconciling Christianity with the belief that nudity is not sinful and shameful, aren't you?

Your mistake was mentioning that fact to your pastor. I'm a born-again Christian--not a 7th Day Adventist though--and have simply decided to keep this one belief to myself and not share it with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I've met other nudists who say they're Christians, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they say.

Social nudity isn't sinful, and the human body that God created cannot be called sinful or shameful no matter how many people say it is. If you are called to be ordained but have a belief that stands in the way, you have to make a decision as to what is most important to you since you chose to tell your pastor that you do not view the human body as shameful but beautiful because God created it.

If you want to remain in your present church, you will have to renounce your beliefs concerning the human body and "repent" (as your pastor will see it) of your "sin". You can, of course, go elsewhere to another church, or even a different denomination, and keep this belief to yourself since most Christians believe the human body to be something that should be hidden--particularly the genitals.

I have no doubt that God's greatest creation, the human body, is beautiful and not sinful or shameful and should be kept hidden from others. We can be in fellowship with God and still enjoy life and nature as nudists as we serve our God as Christians. However, this belief cannot be shared with our brothers and sisters in Christ because most of them don't share that belief.

I tried finding the scripture but couldn't. There is scripture that says that we are not to take other Christians to court. Sueing one another is against God's will. That is not an alternative for you. The way I see it you have the following options, though I could be wrong:

1. As I stated above, go to your pastor, tell him you've "sinned" with this belief and have him pray with you for God's "forgiveness". However, you've stated that you don't believe the human body and nudity are sinful. You would actually be lying by saying you believe you've sinned.

2. Go to another church, whether 7th Day Adventist or not, and say nothing about being a nudist.

3. Start your own church although you're not ordained and couldn't pastor a church, unless you want to get one of those mail order ordinations.

There may be other alternatives, but that's all I can suggest. I've reconciled my Christianity with my nudism because of my belief that when God said that all that He had created was "good", that included the human body since Adam and Eve were naked at the time. Also, since God would never tell anyone to commit a sin, further proof that the human body isn't sinful or shameful is found in the fact that He told Isaiah to go naked for three years knowing that other people would see him. I know that there was a purpose for that commandment, but if God considered the human body to be shameful and something to hide, why did He tell Isaiah to go naked for three years? At least I think it was Isaiah.

Be nude and have fun. I know I will. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Cigol Edun]

Adventists are a diverse group, that generally hold quite strongly to the belief that the Bible should be the basis of their theology. Most Adventists probably believe as most Christians that being nude in a public social setting violates principles in the Bible.
Among adventist there are quite a few individuals who hold to the Bible strongly enough that if you can make a thorough case from the Bible that challenges this popular belief, they would choose to follow the Bible over traditional views.
That doesn't mean they will become nudist but if they already know you to be a genuine Christian then they would encourage you to follow the dictates of your own conscience. This is largely because Adventists are such big supporters of liberty of conscience.
One has to still be careful what one says to whom, but in the right adventist circles a thorough Bible based based approach will go a very long way. I wouldn't advise necessarily telling your pastor--although this approach might work, but rather exercise discretion in choosing who you give disclosure to.
Generally it should be safe to talk to genuine Christians about biblical issues if one does so in a Christ like manner, and in adventist churches there are still plenty of true Christians along with plenty that are not, as in most other churches.
I am an adventist and have not had any trouble following what I believe the teachings of the Bible allow for. I don't necessarily go out of my way to bring to light my more controversial positions because I don't want to be a stumbling block to others, but I don't really hide my views and actions either. If I'm asked informally what I think about such things I would tell as much as I think I could without being a stumbling block.
The adventist church is a world wide organization, and I'm sure there are plenty of non-gymnophobic people in this group. I've heard at least of topless women who were welcomed to church services outside of the United States. I also know an adventist pastor who preached at such a service.
My point is simply that Adventists are generally going to put their religion high on their list of priorities, and the biblical possibilities for Christian nudism that isn't a norm for the local culture is probably seldom considered and thought to be sexually oriented.
One last thing. Isaiah 54:17 says "no weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and this is their vindication from me, declares the Lord. (NIV) Keep in mind that this promise is contingent on being a servant of the Lord.
Okay, farewell. I hope this post helps.

[Eric6420]

In the movie "Vivre nu" there is a nude catholic priest who celebrates the mass on nude campgrounds.

In theory, there is nothing against nudity in the catholic church. That way they can convert nude native people in places like Brazil.

The reality is that the culture of the church never liked nudity, but since nudity was not considered a sin in itself, a catholic priest can go nude in a nudist camping with the blessing of the church at least in France.

It is true that in a country where atheists are pratically the standard culture as in France, who cares about a nude priest? Even the conservatives catholics have nothing to say against preaching the good word of Jesus to nudists (even if you have to do it in the nude). After all, the priest must adapt to the ones he preach to...

[Sauna]

Answer is yes. We have pastors as members and also other parish staff. No problem.

[Cigol Edun]

Jerry C---
I think individual churches within Adventist circles would welcome a deaf ministry. (And not care if you spent private time at nudist venues).

I'm wondering if you feel the need to be an adventist pastor or do you believe that God can direct your ministry without such endorsement?

I'm not interested in becoming a pastor of the denomination, but I've not given up on the notion of ministry. Have you thought of being a missionary? This may be a way for you to be a pastor of the adventist church and still take vacations say to another country that you could spend occasionally clothes free.

Although I don't think you would have to keep this away from all members of your congregation, I think discretion would be appropriate.

Anyway, I'm an SDA so I can probably relate to some of your experiences.

[Naturist Mark]

Jerry C hasn't been active here for the last 5 years, so I doubt he'll be reading these 2007 responses. But it would be interesting to know how things have turned out for him after a half decade.

-Mark

[Art900]

Originally posted by Jerry C.:

One finally reason I'm not pursuing nudism is that I sense that most nudist are non-believers and the Bible plainly states not to associate with them (2 Cor. 6:14).<br /

How can you say that most nudists are non-believers!!! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif If you explore this site I think you find that most individuals that post on this site are believers as I am. And I have been taught that part of my charge as a believer is to spread God's Word and how can you spread the word if you only associate with believers. I think you are totally off base with this type of logic and if that is the belief of the SDA then that would explain why they are a small denomination of Christians. Jesus sat with the sinners and made them believers and we should too!!!!!!!

[Cigol Edun]

Um, I think Jerry C has not reacted significantly different than many other Christian people that have never ever been exposed to public nudity. I can't see how 2 Cor 6:14 applies to Christian naturists. I guess he has not dared explore clothes-free entertainment for himself so almost all he has to go on is what his textile friends have said, or at least nothing from his own experience.

As far as Adventists go, as a denomination they DO believe in reaching people wherever they are at. I'm an adventist and I do not happen to share Jerry's position. Adventists are quite a diverse group of people and aren't nearly as small as you might expect. We are a world wide church as I made reference to in my first post on this thread.

Anyhow, I hope people will realize that all adventists aren't the same.

[Rabid_Clam]

There are many clergy of all faiths attending nudist resorts as well as other nudist activities. There are many, now, gay churches in the states.

Everyone has to be naked at some point, is no sin to be naked. Many characters of the bible wandered about naked and that is well and openly stated in the bible. Nudity just does not make a big reaction in the biblic theater.

There are many ordained ministers that are nudists, it is just not noted in big words tatoo'd on their foreheads.

[nakedjohn]

Why not, do not see a problem here.

[zauberkoenig]

My Dear,

do you remeber the Janet - Jackson - Affair ? We all are bound in traditions and the heirloom of plain superstitions (this to be understood n o t on the religious field!) until up to the sixties; nudity (of course of Caucasians, n o t of natives -1922 Protestant missionary and ethnologist Ernst Koch placed his book "Im Banne der Furcht" with African girls proudly dilaying their breasts at the livongroom tables of conservative Protestants; about 1954 our college class was guided to the lectures of Catholic missionary and enthnologist Pater Gusinde - the illustrations as a slideshow)- - Criminal LAw dealt with the problem and the threat of punishment of propagating, showing or diplaying nudity until 1980; court sentences and all the official organisations in Youth Welfare hunted for film posters : Nipples to be seen were endangering the youths healthful development - - all these arguments were clearly secularily bsed.

Now we have to face the question : Are we here to frighten and offend others, because - as I believe - we have another (biblically based)
anthroplogy ? Is that a central issue ?

[DoctorSurferDude]

I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist too.

It's definately a diverse church with a core set of values. But some of it's beliefs are more softly observed, and rightly so. The church is famous for things like vegetarianism, abstaining from alcohol, wearing no jewelry, etc. Any of those issues is certainly NOT a salvation issue, but it's a personal belief and therefore a personal choice that many Adventists follow (although many do not). Now....with diversity comes extremes, and you WILL find Adventists who view eating meat or wearing jewelry and various trivial beliefs as hard core salvation issues.....they are certainly not the majority and definately a little out of touch with the bigger picture, these are the "legalistic" type Christians.

So...the topic of nudism. Again, it's a personal choice. There will be those who get legalistic with it...but they obviously have not read their Bibles with the intent to understand God/Salvation, but rather to simply find rules to obey.

For those who don't know....I did an interview last March with the Associated Press. I didn't really expect to be quoted in sources like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Yahoo News, etc. But...alas, there was my name. Inevitably somebody forwarded the article to the dean of my medical school (an adventist institution) and I found myself talking to the Dean of Students about my involvement in nudism. I knew it could go both ways depending on what KIND of Adventist I had to do my explaining to. Fortunately....I talked with a deeply thoughtful christian who saw no issue with my participation in nudism or my membership at a local resort. So....although he was not a nudist himself, he saw nothing wrong with nudism....and I earned my degree from an Adventist instituion, no more questions asked.

I've been an Adventist my whole life, and a nudist for the past 13 years...and I can truely say I see no conflict between the two. I enrich myself by participating in both.

[DoctorSurferDude]

As far as reachign people.....the topic of God came up in the hot tub from time to time. One of my fellow compadres at Olive Dell liked what he heard about Adventism and he decided to go check it out for himself.....he was baptized later that year.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by svrcek:
My Dear,

do you remeber the Janet - Jackson - Affair ? We all are bound in traditions and the heirloom of plain superstitions (this to be understood n o t on the religious field!) until up to the sixties; nudity (of course of Caucasians, n o t of natives -1922 Protestant missionary and ethnologist Ernst Koch placed his book "Im Banne der Furcht" with African girls proudly dilaying their breasts at the livongroom tables of conservative Protestants; about 1954 our college class was guided to the lectures of Catholic missionary and enthnologist Pater Gusinde - the illustrations as a slideshow)- - Criminal LAw dealt with the problem and the threat of punishment of propagating, showing or diplaying nudity until 1980; court sentences and all the official organisations in Youth Welfare hunted for film posters : Nipples to be seen were endangering the youths healthful development - - all these arguments were clearly secularily bsed.

I do remember Jannet Jackson, still have a photo of her in my collection. Pierced nipples take some pain and persistance, and people who go through all that want to show them off. I didn't see anything wrong with Janet's breast and jewelry. I find the prudes in the government TV censors to be the offensive ones.

As for naked natives, I've noticed what seems to be an increase in naked natives on National Geographic Channel and other "cable" channels. I've seen full frontal male and female nudity without fuzzies or camera angle blocking out. In one recent program there was a close up shot of a woman twisting twine from plant fiber. The camera angle was close with her breast and nipple hanging down in front of the camera. I don't think its a coincidence that the "cable" channels are putting a lot more nudity, naked natives, etc., on their programs.

Nudity among our whole culture seems to be more acceptable. We have seen Hollywood bimbos showing off their naked crotches for the poperazi. We seen naked bike rides, officially designated state nude beaches, and more nudity on "cable" channels.


Now we have to face the question : Are we here to frighten and offend others, because - as I believe - we have another (biblically based)
anthroplogy ? Is that a central issue ?

We don't want to frighten others, but there is no underlying reason for a human being to be freighteining. The sight of another human being ought not be considered any moore freightening than one's own mirror. Everybody has a body, and should be called "acceptable." As long as we allow ourselves to be shunned by prejudice or fear we promote prejudice and fear.

Blessings
Bob

[Cigol Edun]

I found myself talking to the Dean of Students about my involvement in nudism.

I bet that was an interesting conversation.

As far as reachign people.....the topic of God came up in the hot tub from time to time. One of my fellow compadres at Olive Dell liked what he heard about Adventism and he decided to go check it out for himself.....he was baptized later that year.

I think that is very cool DoctorSurferDude. Perhaps if more adventists like Jerry C's pastor could have heard of results like these he would have reacted differently.

I'm not even sure it would be legal to tell him though because I think he lives in Arkansas, and from what I've read here on these forums, they have laws against advocating nudism anywhere in the state. Isn't that crazy?

[DoctorSurferDude]

Arkansas....oh boy...

I think a person would have better luck as a nudist in Communist China.

[Cigol Edun]

For those who don't know....I did an interview last March with the Associated Press. I didn't really expect to be quoted in sources like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Yahoo News, etc. But...alas, there was my name. Inevitably somebody forwarded the article to the dean of my medical school (an adventist institution) and I found myself talking to the Dean of Students about my involvement in nudism.

Just out of curiosity if you don't mind sharing What was your interview about DoctorSurferDude?

I assume it probably had something to do with nudity or it wouldn't have brought about that discussion.

[zauberkoenig]

Dear Jerry C.,

first ásk your pastor on which text of the Church Manual he places his proposals 1. - 4. for you.

Then : Of course Europe is different since the sixties - and right here we have a tradition going back to the post - WW I time : The "Youth" had their "Mixed Bathing" in "tricots" , meeting somewhere on the Danube. There was some affinity to "Water Cures" and the primitive institutions just could not meet some peoples standards on gender separation.And nowadays the superluxusfivestar Wellness Resorts have no gender separation, also because of the guests demands.

Now in the sixties we begun organizing sauna visits for after skiing, some girls disapproved also at home to "Women only" because of the inecent behaviour there. In the eighties the legal situatio changed; We met a good deal of the Youth of Wien Mite Church all togeher in a nemwly opened sauna, you easily - I akways did it easily -can chat abut your vacation destiny.
(German) church owned retreat in Freudenstadt first boasted the sauna + swimming facility on the hillside, now their own sauna to atract vacation visitors; at some Church conventions I met pastors and their wives in the sauna - - -
Our ocal minister, a Conservative Romanian, just in the SS - Teachers meeting in a tone saying "Dont bother about nonessentials" (he is also ministering two other Chrches here) that famlies and groups --

I am Sabbathschool Teacher since about 1957, since the same time in the curch board, then second Elder, then Number one, and now for honor Number three.

Of course the atmospherein your local church should be respected, but because of feeling and respondig and not violatng their feelings - but not the Church Manual (If teher eve were such a strange orde tobe read out of it.)
Cheers, greetings, blessings GSS

[Rabid_Clam]

As stated many times prior there is a time and place for everything. A nudist leader of a church is fine as long as all the followers are in tune with nudity. If not then that will be a loss of effort.

One must find the correct place and then the correct time for this but more so must find a receptive audiance.

Nudit is nothing new to religious history of most any denomination. Is just part of life. And the 'players' of religious history have enjoyed naturism in their work and being naked did not hinder them, should not hinder us either.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
As stated many times prior there is a time and place for everything. A nudist leader of a church is fine as long as all the followers are in tune with nudity. If not then that will be a loss of effort.

One must find the correct place and then the correct time for this but more so must find a receptive audiance.

Nudit is nothing new to religious history of most any denomination. Is just part of life. And the 'players' of religious history have enjoyed naturism in their work and being naked did not hinder them, should not hinder us either.
If the members of your church do not respect you as a person, then you are going to have a difficult time leading them. That would be true of any leadership position.

[DoctorSurferDude]

Originally posted by Cigol Edun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For those who don't know....I did an interview last March with the Associated Press. I didn't really expect to be quoted in sources like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Yahoo News, etc. But...alas, there was my name. Inevitably somebody forwarded the article to the dean of my medical school (an adventist institution) and I found myself talking to the Dean of Students about my involvement in nudism.

Just out of curiosity if you don't mind sharing What was your interview about DoctorSurferDude?

I assume it probably had something to do with nudity or it wouldn't have brought about that discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is one of the sources that it appeared in....guess NBC shares with ABC, or at least they all share the AP.

My name is Sam Miller.

At the time I did the interview I thought it would be small time. I never expected to see my name on so many major news sources....but oh well, no harm done. As long as it brings awareness to this nudist issue, it is worth the stares I got at my school.

Here are the links....ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3169436) Yahoo (http://fe23.news.sp1.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20070514/ap_tr_ge/travel_brief_young_nudists) FOX (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271898,00.html) MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18646315/) CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/13/national/main2795995.shtml)

[DoctorSurferDude]

I didn't find the CNN source anymore....guess it was old news.

[TigerTeam]

A lot has been said about whether the bible prohibits nudity or nudism. To argue the finer points of this or that passage seems to me that we are looking to find the 'letter of the law' for or against nudity. IMO if someone wants to find justification in the bible for nudity, they can find it. (that may not be the case for other activities, which may be explicitly forbidden.) Likewise, if someone wanted to find justification in the bible for being appropriately dressed they can also find it. Clearly, nudity is not an all or nothing proposition in the bible.

Let's be honest here, even the most ardent supporters of nudism in this forum have to admit, that there are elements within nudism that are contrary to commonly held beliefs about Christianity. (a couple examples would be public displays of sexual activity, or the practice of swapping spouses aka swinging. Other less controversial activities could also be debated but leave it at that.) Many of the norms in Christianity may deal more with the social customs and thus, in that context, those norms are binding even if they are not explicitly spelled out. For example, Paul states that it is proper for a woman to keep her hair long. (1Cor 11:15-16), but I feel that this was within the context of that day. Since people viewed short haired women differently than they do today, only because of this was short hair wrong. Many other examples of this can be found. Likewise, there may be no explicit prohibition of certain modern day practices, in the bible (such as naked bike rides). But it could be deducted from this context that in the case where such a practice is held in low esteem for whatever reason, it should nevertheless be avoided (I am not advocating that NBR's be avoided, but depending on how they are conducted it might be the case). This is the spirit of the law, not the letter, which has been written on our hearts hopefully. And certainly, if a society views public nudity in the same way as short haired women back then, it might receive the same treatment. But aside from some of these elements, the actual exposure of the body is to me very much a part of biblical times. But like the example of the woman's hair, the same is true, the standards that supported those beliefs then may not be the same standards used today. Even still, I advocate mixed nudity today, but maybe with a bit more discretion than most nudists. Like the example in Brattleboro Vt, about the out of town fellow who saw the news report and travelled to the town just so that he could be nude. That's pushing it. The bible doesn't specifically condemn such a thing, but I still feel it was in poor taste.

[kphoger]

Arkansas....oh boy...

I think a person would have better luck as a nudist in Communist China.
i was just reading the arkansas state laws the other day, and realized something funny: it defines "nudist" as someone who associates nude with others of the opposite sex. so, technically, wouldn't an all-male or all-female nudist venue be legit?

anywho..

For example, Paul states that it is proper for a woman to keep her hair long. (1Cor 11:15-16), but I feel that this was within the context of that day. Since people viewed short haired women differently than they do today, only because of this was short hair wrong. Many other examples of this can be found. Likewise, there may be no explicit prohibition of certain modern day practices, in the bible. But it could be deduced from this context that in the case where such a practice is held in low esteem for whatever reason, it should nevertheless be avoided.
i hadn't thought of that. it's profound, too, and i kind of wish it weren't, because then i could just pass it off. i think this kind of thing would especially hold true for a pastor: ministry doesn't take well to scandal, even if the scandal is ill-founded. it's a fine line to walk, i've got to admit that!

[Fitz1980]

WOW, talk about the letter of the law and the spirit of the law not being in sync. By that law it means that a Christian nudist group, where there is NO OPENED SEXUAL ACTIVITY, that's safe to bring your kids to would be illegal while a group of gay male swingers, looking for an orgy would be legal.

[Naturist Mark]

Let's be honest here, even the most ardent supporters of nudism in this forum have to admit, that there are elements within nudism that are contrary to commonly held beliefs about Christianity.
I would argue that nudism is commonly mistaken to be incompatible with Christian values.

No less authority than Pope John Paul II (http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_007_WojtylaNudism.htm) stated that there is nothing wrong with simple nudity. The Bible makes no explicit condemnations of non sexual nudity - which was very common in most Biblical times - dirty work in the fields, while fishing, and other work was often done nude in order to preserve clothing - critics must use considerable ingenuity to bend the Bible to their will - or willful misinterpretation.
Nudity and the Bible (http://www.clothesfree.com/nudityandthebible.html)

[Cigol Edun]

Quotes originally by TigerTeam: in bold...

A lot has been said about whether the bible prohibits nudity or nudism. To argue the finer points of this or that passage seems to me that we are looking to find the 'letter of the law'for or against nudity. Studying specific passages allows us to answer specific questions about what the Bible teaches on this subject.IMO if someone wants to find justification in the bible for nudity, they can find it. (that may not be the case for other activities, which may be explicitly forbidden.) I tend to agree with you here. Likewise, if someone wanted to find justification in the bible for being appropriately dressed they can also find it.
Assuming one is honest and sufficiently thorough, I don't believe one would find the Bible to contradict itself in this matter. Finding evidence that the Bible supports the position that one should be "appropriately dressed" doesn't necessarily contradict the biblically derived justification for nudity that you said one could probably find if one wanted. Clearly, nudity is not an all or nothing proposition in the bible. If by this you mean that the bible doesn't make any universal declaration that everyone should be socially naked, or that no one should, I can agree. The Bible isn't neutral about this issue though. God explicitly tells Isaiah to get butt naked in Isaiah 20:2-4; God's spirit came on Saul while he was stripped in the company of others 1 Sam 19:23,24; and of all the numerous references to naked individuals found in the bible (including examples of people God told to get naked), no condemnation of such passages is found. Is it really reasonable that God would tell people to do things he would have issues with them doing? I don't think so.

Let's be honest here, even the most ardent supporters of nudism in this forum have to admit, that there are elements within nudism that are contrary to commonly held beliefs about Christianity. I would admit this Many of the norms in Christianity may deal more with the social customs and thus, in that context, those norms are binding even if they are not explicitly spelled out. For example, Paul states that it is proper for a woman to keep her hair long. (1Cor 11:15-16), but I feel that this was within the context of that day. Since people viewed short haired women differently than they do today, only because of this was short hair wrong. I don't follow you here. "Norms and traditions aren't "binding" in my understanding. Acts 6:29 says "We must obey God rather than men!" The Bible warns against following tradition above the commands of God. As far as hair length goes, The Old Testament includes the nazirite law in Numbers 6 which among other things allowed men and women who made a separation vow to God to grow their hair out indefinitely and then shave it as part of their vow. So men and women had the right to wear hair at any length. Paul does say that it is shameful for a man to have long hair and for a woman to have short hair in obviously reference to the cultural norm, and he gave opinions, and ADVICE to people to follow his "teaching" or tradition (1 Cor. 11:2), but even in this passage of 1 Cor. 11:2-16, he says to "judge for yourselves" if it is proper for a woman to pray to God with her "head uncovered" (verse 13). Also in verse 16 we see that the only thing he says to someone that would challenge this is "we have no other practice---nor do the churches of God."

Many other examples of this can be found. Likewise, there may be no explicit prohibition of certain modern day practices, in the bible. But it could be deduced from this context that in the case where such a practice is held in low esteem for whatever reason, it should nevertheless be avoided. This is the spirit of the law, not the letter, which has been written on our hearts hopefully. And certainly, if a society views public nudity in the same way as short haired women back then, it might receive the same treatment.
Tiger Traditions shouldn't effect my decisions except perhaps to make me sensitive to the culture I'm in so I can avoid being a "stumbling block" for others. The law that is written "in our hearts" is the law of love from what I can tell. I most definitely believe that it could be God's will for individuals to be clothed just as much as it was God's will for them to be naked. So if we wish to please God, we need to be sure that what we are doing is what God's will is for us at the time we are doing it.

[TigerTeam]

Originally posted by Cigol Edun:
The Bible isn't neutral about this issue though. God explicitly tells Isaiah to get butt naked in Isaiah 20:2-4; God's spirit came on Saul while he was stripped in the company of others 1 Sam 19:23,24; and of all the numerous references to naked individuals found in the bible (including examples of people God told to get naked), no condemnation of such passages is found. Is it really reasonable that God would tell people to do things he would have issues with them doing? I don't think so.


All very good examples of biblical nudity. I would have loved to be there to witness the reaction from the women standers by. It does beg a question - would this be a precedent that if God wanted anyone else to be nude in mixed company that it would require His own explicit command to do so? Maybe not, but worth thinking about. Also, I wonder if there are any examples at all of women being naked in mixed company with this same blessing from God? Now even if there is not, it may not mean anything. But if we use these passages to support mixed nudity we must do so with caution I think. We like to use handy quotes from people to support nudism. Some people who are not Christian will use the bible or the pope to justify nudism, but they themselves do not buy anything else that these sources teach, so it kind of negates their argument.

[Cigol Edun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
For example, Paul states that it is proper for a woman to keep her hair long. (1Cor 11:15-16), but I feel that this was within the context of that day. Since people viewed short haired women differently than they do today, only because of this was short hair wrong. Many other examples of this can be found. Likewise, there may be no explicit prohibition of certain modern day practices, in the bible. But it could be deduced from this context that in the case where such a practice is held in low esteem for whatever reason, it should nevertheless be avoided.




i hadn't thought of that. it's profound, too, and i kind of wish it weren't, because then i could just pass it off. i think this kind of thing would especially hold true for a pastor: ministry doesn't take well to scandal, even if the scandal is ill-founded. it's a fine line to walk, i've got to admit that!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that Paul was giving his opinion and advice about non-salvation issues. He even said for his audience to "judge for yourselves" what they thought was right in verse 13, and then he just admits in verse 16 that "if anyone wants to be contentious about this..." that that was just their only "practice".

[jon71]

I didn't take the time to look up chapter and verse but it reminds me of something in the new Testament about keeping kosher. A lot of the early Christians were also Jewish, in fact at first some people thought you had to be Jewish in order to be a Christian. Anyway some early Christians kept kosher and some didn't. A few would but only if they were being watched and they thought they would impress someone with their piety. Furthermore at times both "camps" would give the other a hard time. I think it was Paul who tried to stop that nonsense. Basically he said some people benefit from having more rules and some people are hampered by them. This isn't to say that all rules are optional (I'd consider the Ten Commandments non-negotiable for example) but that there is a degree of flexibility. It seems clear in this instance that while not mandator that the kosher rules are there because some people benefit from that extra structure.

[Cigol Edun]

Originally posted by TigerTeam:

All very good examples of biblical nudity.... It does beg a question - would this be a precedent that if God wanted anyone else to be nude in mixed company that it would require His own explicit command to do so? Maybe not, but worth thinking about.

I don't think so.
I believe that God gives us the specifics of what we are NOT allowed to do, and the principles to apply to what we ARE allowed to do and then we are free to do whatever else we wish that doesn't violate our conscience. That is part of the "freedom" we have in Christ. It is also consistent with the general ways God dealt with people in the Bible. Let me list a few of these: Adam and Eve could eat from every tree in the garden except one. The commandments mostly deal with things that we should "not" do (presumably to forbid the doing of those things we might otherwise feel free to do, leaving those things not mentioned as areas for us to decide for ourselves). Mica 6:8 says "He has showed you O man what is good..." implying that human beings have been given the ability to figure out for themselves what is good (If that doesn't seem obvious then reading the rest of the passage might clarify: "...And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God"). Rom 13:8-10 teaches that for "whatever other commandment that there may be" love is the fulfilling of it--mirroring Jesus' own words. James I believe is talking about this when he refers to "the law that gives freedom" in James 2:12; Paul says numerous times that "everything is permissible" though not necessarily beneficial. Finally, Jesus tells his believers that if they hold to his "teaching" then they "will know the truth and the truth will set" them "free"(John 8:31).

Also, I wonder if there are any examples at all of women being naked in mixed company with this same blessing from God? Now even if there is not, it may not mean anything. But if we use these passages to support mixed nudity we must do so with caution I think.

There is not much authoritatively said about women being naked in the Bible. We have reference to it though. For instance, Eve was apparently naked by God's design. Then there are the references such as prophets like Isaiah telling women to beat their breasts and the passages about God pulling the skirts or dresses over their faces as a shame-based punishment. Other than that all I can think of right now is queen Vashti in the book of Esther told to come before the King's drunk nobles wearing... Well wearing nothing specifically mentioned besides her crown "to display her beauty" but I guess technically she didn't come. (Still not sure how that might apply) http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[zauberkoenig]

May I suggest to quit with the "proof text method", with ""we find - - " or "we do not find any - - " and discuss

1. Biblicl Anthropology - with the help of Creation Story, Mans fallibility, the Sermon on he Mount- -

2. Biblical Ehics of Mans dignity, respect to everybody, my very own digniy, your very own
dignity, the slaves own dignity, the natives own dignity - -

Then we could discuss how to handle the embarrassment of a local church, where it comes from, how to deal with it, ignore it, avoid stirrng it up, what message is our Christian essential here and there - -

[Cigol Edun]

Hi svrcek.

I'm not sure I know much about Bible Anthropology, though I do feel decently confident about knowing my Bible. I was just trying to show the line of thinking I've used in the past to arrive where I am today. It is not exactly what I would call the "proof text method" as I am trying to weigh in objectively what the Bible says as a whole with particular emphasis on the original language analysis in places where I think the translations are not very clear.

Anyway, it sounds like you have your own interesting approach so why don't you show us all how it should be done. Feel free to poke holes in my logic etc. If what I write can't stand under scrutiny than it shouldn't stand at all.

[Cigol Edun]

There is no feasible way of only doing things which God has given explicit directions about --- with a possible exception if God personally talks to you constantly and miraculously enables you to process the data stream in real time.

I don't know about you all here, but God doesn't talk to me like that.

So since it is not feasible to expect I can have clear instructions about every tiny thing I do, if I'm to look to the Bible for guidance, it makes logical sense to apply it in a way that I can rather than a way that I can't.

The way that I can, is to try to understand those things that God is asking me to avoid, and assume that if it is not expressly forbidden then it is one of those things which God has given me sufficient principles or thinking ability to ascertain for myself. Or else he will eventually reveal it to me.

The Bible is a book of only finite content. If one can accept this as true, the above approach makes a lot of sense (or at least it does to me).

[emsdude]

I think it's ok for a pator of church to be a nudist. They born the same way as everyone else nude. It all the same God loves the nude pastor as he love the rest of us nudist. Just human God's love is the same for all.What better why to be before God just as he made us nothing to hide.

[Ken Palmer]

The problem here is the majority of Christians are indeed uninformed of the principles and philosophies of nudism and/or naturism. As we all probably know also, most of them will tend to turn a deaf ear to a person simply discussing it because of their beliefs about it. I am not saying it is impossible to change their views. But it sure will be a long and difficult road and process. I have grown up in church all of my life and I know first hand that most of them have nothing complimentary to say about nudism. One man I spoke to a few years ago even went as far to say "may they all doe of sun poisoning!" See what I mean?

Ken Palmer

Originally posted by emsdude:
I think it's ok for a pator of church to be a nudist. They born the same way as evryone else nude. It all the same God loves the nude pastor as he love the rest of us nudist. Just human God's love is the same for all.What better why to be before God just as he made us nothing to hide.

[Dick Springer]

I am an atheist, but I have personally known several nudist ministers and at least one rabbi. I think it's unlikely that their congregations know.

[David77]

In my Unitarian Universalist church, a pastor could comfortably be a nudist. The congregation knows that I am a naturist and no one objects, even though I was a church trustee. In fact, some of the other menbers have been to nude beaches here and in Europe.

[usuallylurk]

Originally posted by Jerry C.:
However, the burning question is: Will I be hired by any church because of my nudist viewpoint?

I've known several ministers. One does our Sunday service at Cedar Waters every three weeks.

http://www.nhnude.com

[Borntobenude]

Originally posted by Ken Palmer:
The problem here is the majority of Christians are indeed uninformed of the principles and philosophies of nudism and/or naturism. As we all probably know also, most of them will tend to turn a deaf ear to a person simply discussing it because of their beliefs about it. I am not saying it is impossible to change their views. But it sure will be a long and difficult road and process. I have grown up in church all of my life and I know first hand that most of them have nothing complimentary to say about nudism. One man I spoke to a few years ago even went as far to say "may they all doe of sun poisoning!" See what I mean?

Yeah, the man who said that was certainly following the teachings of Christ, wasn't he? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

[Cigol Edun]

Originally posted by Borntobenude:
Yeah, the man who said that was certainly following the teachings of Christ, wasn't he? Roll Eyes


I think the man who said this was probably a product of Christian culture, even though I don't think of him as a very representative product of Christian culture.

In my view it is a shame that so much of typical Christian culture espouses principles that are so anti-Christian. It is also dangerous because conforming to those cultural Christian standards probably gives some folk a secure feeling about their evil (and most definitely unchristian ways. I feel that a lot of this comes from biblical ignorance (and a very large group of Christians seem to be biblically ignorant). I suppose that an honest, regular and careful study of the Bible would help these people balance out, but unfortunately too few people do this. Of course, numerically speaking, there might not really be that many professed Christians that are messed up by bad Christian culture, but a few isolated extreme outspoken and unkind groups can still majorly poison public perceptions, and perhaps churn out a few folk like the man who said of the nudists "may they all doe of sun poisoning!"