Terrorism isnt forever

[Jennifer1]

Finally after years of terror from the IRA, they say they will stop and destroy all there weapons, after decades of war, the scum finally stop there hostilites to the UK and prodesants of NI.

Just thought this would be one of those lights at the end of the tunnel things, for people who wonder if the terrorist will ever stop.

Full story
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005340755,00.html

This wont be an easy thing, ive been to Northren Ireland many times, and the hatered between the catholics and prodesants is stronger than ever.

[Jennifer1]

Finally after years of terror from the IRA, they say they will stop and destroy all there weapons, after decades of war, the scum finally stop there hostilites to the UK and prodesants of NI.

Just thought this would be one of those lights at the end of the tunnel things, for people who wonder if the terrorist will ever stop.

Full story
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005340755,00.html

This wont be an easy thing, ive been to Northren Ireland many times, and the hatered between the catholics and prodesants is stronger than ever.

[hm0504]

It is very promising. Interesting that it comes at time just when a new type of terrorism (also religious-based) is growing in Britain.

[Eric6420]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between the IRA, who was about a little war between catholics and protestants on the tiny terretory of Northern Ireland, and Al Quaida, who is at total war against the West and the western lifestyle.

[David77]

We shall see if this declaration really means anything of substance. As it is said, "Only time will tell".

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
Yes, but there is a huge difference between the IRA, who was about a little war between catholics and protestants on the tiny terretory of Northern Ireland, and Al Quaida, who is at total war against the West and the western lifestyle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
thank you for belittling the war that claimed the Lifes of 1000+ british security forces and countless prodesants at the hands off catholics, shame the IRA didn't bomb your pathetic country then maybe it wouldnt seem so small to you.

[Trailscout]

I wonder if there is a compromise that all can live with. Should Ulster become part of the Republic of Ireland, the Protestants will want a voice in the government in such a way that they can live according to their conscience even with a Catholic majority.

Should Ulster remain part of the United Kingdom, the Catholics have a right to fair treatment by the majority.

Is there a third path? Should Ulster be an independent region that is neither part of Ireland nor the UK?

We are all sick of bombs and bloodshed. Is that always the price of freedom and justice?

[Jennifer1]

Ulster is always going to be divided, the Prodesants are loyalist, loyal orangemen who predge themselfs to defend the crown and the reformed bible, as where the catholics feel that they shouldn't be part of the UK. I play in an Orange flute band and we are always in attendance at the Walk on the tweleth so i spend a fair amount of time in NI, its a place like none other, the murals of now outlawed paramilitary organisations still remain, the police to scared to paint over them.

[Eric6420]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric6420:
Yes, but there is a huge difference between the IRA, who was about a little war between catholics and protestants on the tiny terretory of Northern Ireland, and Al Quaida, who is at total war against the West and the western lifestyle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
thank you for belittling the war that claimed the Lifes of 1000+ british security forces and countless prodesants at the hands off catholics, shame the IRA didn't bomb your pathetic country then maybe it wouldnt seem so small to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is that it was a local conflict and Al Quaida is worldwide. Compare the population of Ireland with the muslim population worldwide and maybe you will understand what I mean. The goal of the IRA was for the catholics to take the power in Northern Ireland. The goal of Al Quaida is to destroy the western world and to impose radical islam worldwide.

[gormenghast20]

Until fatwas are issued condeming violence against civilians...or even violence in general...by reputable Islamic clerics/religious organizations the violence will continue. There has been too much silence from the Muslim world on this issue....IMHO.

[hm0504]

In Canada [1], Britain, and elsewhere, many Muslim leaders have condemned the Islamist violence and issued fatwas against it.

Unfortunately, there are those who quite publicly say they will not issue fatwas against it, and also those who quite publicly support Islamism (see reference [1]).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Britain and Canada need to follow France's lead in getting tough on religious fundamentalism -- no religious wear at school, and no religion-driven hate speech.

[1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPSt...9/IMAMS/National/Idx (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050729/IMAMS/National/Idx)

(Looks like the link may not work in some contexts.)

[gormenghast20]

Are we allowed to cut-and-paste in this forum? I saw an interesting article and would be interested in seeing what everyone thought of this particular article.

[Eric6420]

If you want my opinion, it is important to fight terrorism, but the main problem is not terrorism in itself, but the ideas behind it.

Europe and the West have become rich and democratic because rationality takes place over irrationality (mainly religion).

But today, the goal of radical islam, is to impose religion as the norm of society. A lot of christians in the usa want the exact same thing.

They want that children learn in school that the universe is 6000 years old because the Bible says so.

They want to criminalised homosexuals because the Bible says so.

They do not want sexual education at school because God do not like that.

They may even accuse homosexuals to be responsable for september 11 or the tsumani in Thailand.

They are against rationality, they are against human rights, they are against science.

You do not need to be terrorized to accept theses beliefs, and when thoses beliefs are strong enough, you can say good bye to any progress in society.You no longer live in a democracy but a theocracy, and you do not need the help of Bin Laden to accomplish that.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gormenghast20:
Are we allowed to cut-and-paste in this forum? I saw an interesting article and would be interested in seeing what everyone thought of this particular article. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you post a link to it?

[gormenghast20]

Yes, it is... terrorism (http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200507290803.asp)

[David77]

Goremenghast20,
Thank you for the wonderful article by the link which you provide above.
It was very thought provoking and the solution mentioned seems reasonable.

[Jennifer1]

Fatwas like the one condeming the london attack mean nothing to us, its paper, i wipe my arse with paper, i might start taking intrest in it when they issue one condeming Al Quaida, which no mulism leader or group has ever done then maybe just maybe it will mean something.

[Trailscout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Ulster is always going to be divided, the Prodesants are loyalist, loyal orangemen who predge themselfs to defend the crown and the reformed bible, as where the catholics feel that they shouldn't be part of the UK. I play in an Orange flute band and we are always in attendance at the Walk on the tweleth so i spend a fair amount of time in NI, its a place like none other, the murals of now outlawed paramilitary organisations still remain, the police to scared to paint over them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jennifer,

Some of my ancestors are Ulstermen. They were driven out of Scotland by the lords of the land they lived on and settled by King James in Ulster to their chagrin as well of the native Irish they displaced.

These ancestors saw their chance at a better life in America and they took it.

They did not love England even though they were Protestant. They took up arms against the crown when the Revolution started.

Now we have our own country, a land of Protestants and Catholics in a secular republic. We have no loyalty to England nor Ireland nor even Ulster, but I can trace some of my ancestry to all three places. We live in peace for the most part dispite our diverse views. I would hope the same for Ulster. Has the time come for Britain to withdraw her troops to avoid antagonizing the natives?

Britain seems to be changing, giving more independence to Wales and Scotland. Can Ulster be far behind?

Radical Islam is a death cult. We in the West must defend ourselves, but the death of the Death Cult must come from within Islam itself.

Turkey is not perfect, but I wonder if it is an example of a modern comparatively liberal nation with a Moslem majority that other countries in that part of the world can emulate.

[gormenghast20]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Fatwas like the one condeming the london attack mean nothing to us, its paper, i wipe my arse with paper, i might start taking intrest in it when they issue one condeming Al Quaida, which no mulism leader or group has ever done then maybe just maybe it will mean something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jennifer,
Fatwas aren't meant to mean anything to anybody other than Muslims...they are religious "orders" instructing Muslims on what to do regarding certain situations.
Benton

[gormenghast20]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David77:
Goremenghast20,
Thank you for the wonderful article by the link which you provide above.
It was very thought provoking and the solution mentioned seems reasonable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're welcome...I ran across the link myself surfing through some newsboards that I belong to and had thought the article interesting.
--Benton

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trailscout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Ulster is always going to be divided, the Prodesants are loyalist, loyal orangemen who predge themselfs to defend the crown and the reformed bible, as where the catholics feel that they shouldn't be part of the UK. I play in an Orange flute band and we are always in attendance at the Walk on the tweleth so i spend a fair amount of time in NI, its a place like none other, the murals of now outlawed paramilitary organisations still remain, the police to scared to paint over them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jennifer,

Some of my ancestors are Ulstermen. They were driven out of Scotland by the lords of the land they lived on and settled by King James in Ulster to their chagrin as well of the native Irish they displaced.

These ancestors saw their chance at a better life in America and they took it.

They did not love England even though they were Protestant. They took up arms against the crown when the Revolution started.

Now we have our own country, a land of Protestants and Catholics in a secular republic. We have no loyalty to England nor Ireland nor even Ulster, but I can trace some of my ancestry to all three places. We live in peace for the most part dispite our diverse views. I would hope the same for Ulster. Has the time come for Britain to withdraw her troops to avoid antagonizing the natives?

Britain seems to be changing, giving more independence to Wales and Scotland. Can Ulster be far behind?

Radical Islam is a death cult. We in the West must defend ourselves, but the death of the Death Cult must come from within Islam itself.

Turkey is not perfect, but I wonder if it is an example of a modern comparatively liberal nation with a Moslem majority that other countries in that part of the world can emulate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your ancesertors left before the violence of the 1950s+, Ulster has changed since then infact Ulster has changed since my dad visiter when he was my age (neatly 30 years ago), your ancestors never experienced the IRA so with all due respect please don't try to thing because someone your related to 100 years ago fleed ireland you can comprehend the situation, your ancestors where trators to the crown and not orangemen, the orange order would have exicuted them had they gotten a hold of them. Now this whole devolution thing is just BS, for one Whales is no where near independant and even though scotland still has its own parliment they are no where near devolution because they honestly have no real power.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Jennifer,
Fatwas aren't meant to mean anything to anybody other than Muslims...they are religious "orders" instructing Muslims on what to do regarding certain situations.
Benton </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
you dont seem to have understoond me, its my fault i guess i was to vauge what i ment was that no muslim leader had spoken out against Al Quaida and partitioned a fatwa to denonce Al Quaida as being against Islam.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gormenghast20:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Fatwas like the one condeming the london attack mean nothing to us, its paper, i wipe my arse with paper, i might start taking intrest in it when they issue one condeming Al Quaida, which no mulism leader or group has ever done then maybe just maybe it will mean something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jennifer,
Fatwas aren't meant to mean anything to anybody other than Muslims...they are religious "orders" instructing Muslims on what to do regarding certain situations.
Benton </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is precisely Muslim who need to hear a fatwa against Osama bin Laden. They didn't mind issuing one aganst Salman Rushdie did they?

[gormenghast20]

In reality it doesn't matter if a fatwa were to be issued against UBL (bin Laden) because although the vast majority of Muslims would follow this fatwa...the terrorists would be able to find plenty of radical clerics to issue a fatwa of a completely opposite nature.

[gormenghast20]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trailscout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jennifer1:
Ulster is always going to be divided, the Prodesants are loyalist, loyal orangemen who predge themselfs to defend the crown and the reformed bible, as where the catholics feel that they shouldn't be part of the UK. I play in an Orange flute band and we are always in attendance at the Walk on the tweleth so i spend a fair amount of time in NI, its a place like none other, the murals of now outlawed paramilitary organisations still remain, the police to scared to paint over them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jennifer,

Some of my ancestors are Ulstermen. They were driven out of Scotland by the lords of the land they lived on and settled by King James in Ulster to their chagrin as well of the native Irish they displaced.

These ancestors saw their chance at a better life in America and they took it.

They did not love England even though they were Protestant. They took up arms against the crown when the Revolution started.

Now we have our own country, a land of Protestants and Catholics in a secular republic. We have no loyalty to England nor Ireland nor even Ulster, but I can trace some of my ancestry to all three places. We live in peace for the most part dispite our diverse views. I would hope the same for Ulster. Has the time come for Britain to withdraw her troops to avoid antagonizing the natives?

Britain seems to be changing, giving more independence to Wales and Scotland. Can Ulster be far behind?

Radical Islam is a death cult. We in the West must defend ourselves, but the death of the Death Cult must come from within Islam itself.

Turkey is not perfect, but I wonder if it is an example of a modern comparatively liberal nation with a Moslem majority that other countries in that part of the world can emulate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your ancesertors left before the violence of the 1950s+, Ulster has changed since then infact Ulster has changed since my dad visiter when he was my age (neatly 30 years ago), your ancestors never experienced the IRA so with all due respect please don't try to thing because someone your related to 100 years ago fleed ireland you can comprehend the situation, your ancestors where trators to the crown and not orangemen, the orange order would have exicuted them had they gotten a hold of them. Now this whole devolution thing is just BS, for one Whales is no where near independant and even though scotland still has its own parliment they are no where near devolution because they honestly have no real power.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Jennifer,
Fatwas aren't meant to mean anything to anybody other than Muslims...they are religious "orders" instructing Muslims on what to do regarding certain situations.
Benton </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
you dont seem to have understoond me, its my fault i guess i was to vauge what i ment was that no muslim leader had spoken out against Al Quaida and partitioned a fatwa to denonce Al Quaida as being against Islam. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the misunderstanding...but I totally agree with your statement here. Could be that the clerics are scared (they're being murdered by the bushel over in Iraq and Afghanistan...funny, the world hear's about a Koran that WASN'T flushed yet pays not attention to this fact) if not complicit in the terrorists' actions. IMHO, Muslims have been so downtrodden over the ages...for various reasons...that any "victory" over the west is a point of pride. Of course, I don't mean that for the average Muslim who must view murder with the same disdain that we all do.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gormenghast20:
Sorry for the misunderstanding...but I totally agree with your statement here. Could be that the clerics are scared (they're being murdered by the bushel over in Iraq and Afghanistan...funny, the world hear's about a Koran that WASN'T flushed yet pays not attention to this fact) if not complicit in the terrorists' actions. IMHO, Muslims have been so downtrodden over the ages...for various reasons...that any "victory" over the west is a point of pride. Of course, I don't mean that for the average Muslim who must view murder with the same disdain that we all do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clerics being murdered "by the bushel"? You mean by other religious factions?

[gormenghast20]

Yes, exactly...Muslims murdering fellow Muslims.

[Trailscout]

We tried to be loyal to the crown, but Britain pushed us to the limit and it was fight or die.

We were supposed to be free subjects, but King George took away our rights and invaded our homeland, garrisoning foreign troops on American soil. Then 36 years after our revolution, they tried to make war on us again, and we drove the Brits off once and for all.

Perhaps the people of Ulster would be happier if their land were part of a Celtic republic that was composed of Cornwall, Wales, Isle of Man, Scotland and Ulster.

[Trailscout]

Not all the murders were Sunni on Shiite or visa versa. Some Sunnis murdered their own sect members who were seen as not supportive enough of their cause.

Reminds me of the story of the old Soviet Union in which party members always vigorously applauded Stalin's speeches. But the first one to stop applauding (even after a very lengthy applause) was shot for disloyalty.

[Baron Lake]

Ah tribalism (in its many forms). What would we do without it?
b.l.

[Jennifer1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trailscout:
We tried to be loyal to the crown, but Britain pushed us to the limit and it was fight or die.

We were supposed to be free subjects, but King George took away our rights and invaded our homeland, garrisoning foreign troops on American soil. Then 36 years after our revolution, they tried to make war on us again, and we drove the Brits off once and for all.

Perhaps the people of Ulster would be happier if their land were part of a Celtic republic that was composed of Cornwall, Wales, Isle of Man, Scotland and Ulster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't seem to understand, the Catholics want them to be a republic and join the scumbag republicans of the IRA, but the prodesants are british, they see themselfs as british and are more Loyal to the Crown (to them the queen is head of the church of england, so going against the queen is like a catholic going against the papicy) than any other country in the UK and the British commonwealth. As long as there lives a prodesnat in Ulster they will never join with The ROI or break away from the UK.

[David77]

One good attribute of the Irish government is that church and state are seperate.

It is a pitty that church and state are together and not seperate in the UK.

Prince Charles states that when he takes the oath when becoming king, he does not want to swear to be the guardian of the Church of England, but prefers to swear to being the guardian of all religions.

[jon71]

What's wrong with going against the crown, church of England or the Papacy. I am a Christian who loves JESUS deeply but who cares very little what "the church" says. If they are on the same page as CHRIST then I'm there too (or attempting to be, I'm as fallable as anyone) but if they're not I have no use for them. I was raised Southern Baptist but I consider the Southern Baptist conventions to be wildly out of touch with GOD's will and I suspect Paige Patterson (spelling ?) and a bunch of the others in charge to be unsaved or even satanic.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
It is very promising. Interesting that it comes at time just when a new type of terrorism (also religious-based) is growing in Britain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IRA terrorism was NOT religion based, neither is the new terrorism. The IRA was against England occupying part of Ireland, the present terrorists are against US/UK occupying Arab lands. It is as simple as that. Why no bombs in Germany, France, Switserland??????????

[Jennifer1]

Captain Zen: The IRA used the fact they where Catholic to get sympathy to fight against the Prodesant England, it was partly about religion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What's wrong with going against the crown, church of England or the Papacy. I am a Christian who loves JESUS deeply but who cares very little what "the church" says. If they are on the same page as CHRIST then I'm there too (or attempting to be, I'm as fallable as anyone) but if they're not I have no use for them. I was raised Southern Baptist but I consider the Southern Baptist conventions to be wildly out of touch with GOD's will and I suspect Paige Patterson (spelling ?) and a bunch of the others in charge to be unsaved or even satanic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First whats a southern baptist? yet another sub group for christianity? You pledge allegence to a flag, for catholics the papicy is the highest level of physical connection with god, for prodesants the church of england is there holy place, when the church of england was formed, it became tradition that the head of the british crown (providing it remained prodesant) would be the figure head, putting the head of the crown on the same level as the Pope, in the eyes of prodesants(obviously they can't be compared to each other).

[Sanslines]

The Church of England is a protestant 'state' religion. In North America, the Church of England (C of E) is 'called' the Anglican church. FYI

[Jennifer1]

Sanslines, i know nothing of religious practices in the US, in R.E. we never learned of any religious things from America it was mainly christianity of Europe, Islam and Buddism, out of curiousity what role does the Church of England or the Anglican church play in your societies religious issues, like is it widely followed or a dying thing of the past.

[jon71]

Jennifer. Yes Southern Baptists are a Protestant denomination, the largest in the U.S. I pledge Allegiance to our Flag but my worship is reserved elclusively for CHRIST. I do not mean the church or any denomination, but to the living GOD exclusively. My point was about seperating what is truly divine with what is merely religious. I had a pastor who used to say Christianity is not a religion, it is a person JESUS CHRIST. That is true. Our GOD matters, our church much less so.

[David77]

Jennifer1,
The Anglican Church in the USA is called the Episcopal Church.

THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH IN THE USA (ECUSA) is one of the provinces of the Anglican Communion, incorporating not only the dioceses within the United States, but also a number of dioceses outside it.

This church body came into existence as an independent denomination after the American Revolution. Today it has between two and three million members in the United States and Central America, all of which are under the jurisdiction of Presiding Bishop Frank Tracy Griswold III.

In Canada, there are about 800,000 Anglican Church participants.

The Anglican Church in the USA and Canada has become quite liberal minded in many quarters, but some members are more conservative minded.

[David77]

<center>Head of Church of England</center>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2144342.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/931022.stm

[namedun]

If you define forever as the theoretical duration of this society, I beleive terrorism will be forever. This society will always breed conflict, violence, and desperate people. And if you think radical muslims will put down their arms like the IRA, I think you should open some history books. Muslims had been under cultural attack for hundreds of years without counterattacks like we see today. It was only a matter of time that things like the September 11th incident took place. And why shouldn't they believe they can make a difference through their actions? Entire nations have been founded on initial attacks on terrorism.

[Sanslines]

Jennifer,

In the USA and Scotland, the church is referred to as Episcopalian Church. In the rest of the world, it is commonly referred to as Anglican Church and in England it is referred to as the Church of England. Anglican churches are especially common in Canada and Australia judging from my own personal observations in both countries. As you know, Scotland is fiercly independant in many ways from England and the church is just another sign of this independance.