Kids and nudists

[Gary Naturist]

Many people, even some nudists, make a distinction between being nude in public when only adults are present and when kids are also present.

Is there really some reason to protect kids from seeing a naked, live person? Will the kid even notice? Might the kid be damaged psychologically and if so, why? Need there be a distinction between same sex and opposite sex? Is this an issue more relative to 6 year olds or for 11 year olds?

[Gary Naturist]

Many people, even some nudists, make a distinction between being nude in public when only adults are present and when kids are also present.

Is there really some reason to protect kids from seeing a naked, live person? Will the kid even notice? Might the kid be damaged psychologically and if so, why? Need there be a distinction between same sex and opposite sex? Is this an issue more relative to 6 year olds or for 11 year olds?

"Is there really some reason to protect kids from seeing a naked, live person?"

It should be left upto parents to decide whether or not they bring up their own children to see adult nudity.

"Will the kid even notice?"

Most certainly!

"Might the kid be damaged psychologically and if so, why?"

Not necessarily. But it might undermine the efforts of the parents to bring up the child as they see fit and with their own values.

"Need there be a distinction between same sex and opposite sex? Is this an issue more relative to 6 year olds or for 11 year olds?"

Depends how the kids are brought up. Different parents - different attitudes.

Stu

[nudeM]

I believe that the younger the kids are, the better off they are viewing adults of both sexes. At first, when I went nude in front of our four year old grandson, he looked and laughed at "papas wee wee". Now, I go nude in front of him and nothing is said. My nudity doesn't even phase him. He mainly sees me in the morning hours, when I usually don't wear anything. He'll ask me for a drink, which I get him and he turns on the morning cartoons. Being nude is no big deal. He has not seen any nude females since he was very small (when mama or grandma is in the bathroom), so I'm not sure about viewing females. I'm sure the situation will basically remain the same.

My older son (15 years old) was a little different, but not much. When he saw dad naked at first, sure he was shocked, but has since realized that dad likes to be nude at times. He has helped me in the back yard, while I was nude, and he helped out quite a bit. He usually doesn't see me nude as much, but some evenings, after a workout of a hard days work, I'll be nude to cool off for awhile.

I think the kids will grow up less likely to be curious about the human body, if they are around nude parents, than if they were raised around textiled parents, such as I was. Being raised around textiles, kids are more prone to "seek" adult magazines for the mere pleasure of viewing nude people. Just my opinion.

[NudeAl]

I've actually seen this happen, sort of, once.

I was at a clothing optional hotspring which is very popular. Lots of nudes mostly younger crowd as you had to hike into the place about 2 or 3 miles. Anyway I used to take my kids with me all the time when they were younger and we had a group of young adults in an ajacent pool. One of the girls, when me and the kids came by, actually felt embaressed and tried to cover up. I told her it was no big deal they have seen plenty of naked people before. Funny how we react sometimes.

The only time I can see myself being naked in front of someone elses kid is if they are family members or they are also nudists. In either case it would probably be okay. When in doubt check with the parents. This would also have to be a social setting with others around just wouldn't feel right other wise.

[Kari P]

Stu,

"It should be left upto parents to decide whether or not they bring up their own children to see adult nudity."

Your principle doesn't work in every culture. It may work in your country but not here in Finland. Of course, this comes from our sauna habits. A thing that seems to be on your side is that it isn't unavoidable for a kid to never see a naked adult of the opposite sex, other than a family member. But the fact that virtually every Finnish child has seen his/her both parents naked means that they already know what naked people look like. Thus there is no logical reason to "protect" children from seeing non-sexual adult nudity.

"it might undermine the efforts of the parents to bring up the child as they see fit and with their own values."

There are millions of other things that can undermine the efforts of the parents to bring up their children with their values. We live in a pluralistic society where it is impossible to the parents to hinder their children from seeing that not everyone in the world, in the country or even in the neighborhood think and believe the same way about everything. An important part of upbringing is to explain this and to teach tolerance of different people, different values and different lifestyles.

Kari P

[Bob S.]

"Might the kid be damaged psychologically and if so, why?"

Psychological damage is done when parents tell their children that they should avoid nudity at all costs. The damage is done if they see nudity and it causes a problem. Their parents have caused the psychological damage, not the child's viewing of nudity. Children are extremely adaptable creatures. They should be able to see virtually anything and not be traumatized by it.

The child will notice, but how long will they let it affect them? If they are being overly curious about the naked body, that is a great time to teach them about the anatomical differences between boys and girls, teach them about your beliefs in privacy, etc. This is only an issue for non-nudist children. Even children who are raised in homes where nudity is matter-of-fact are unaffected when they encounter nudity out in public.

"But it might undermine the efforts of the parents to bring up the child as they see fit and with their own values."

I agree with Kari's position on this. Your beleifs are your beleifs. You can teach them to your children but you can't protect them from others who have opposing beliefs. To do so is a form of psychological harm. Isolationism of children is seen as eccentric behaviour. You can't protect your children from Christians. What if they were to be converted? Egads! Sending them to school, they might learn of different attitudes other than yours. You could send your daughter to her best friend's house where her father, not realizing they have any guests, could come into his daughter's room naked.

Arguments such as that usually are seen from those who do not have strong beliefs in their own values. When I have my own child, I would only get upset if an adult tried to argue his or her own belief system to her. But if she just witnessed something that went against my own belief or value system, that would be the time to reinforce our own beliefs.

Bob S.

[florida-david]

there is absolutely no reason that a child seeing a naked body should be viewed as shocking, unless the kids parents have raised the kid incorrectly. a naked human body is no different than seeing a naked dog in someone's yard or a monkey at the zoo. we are all animals, and our natural state is naked.

with that said, i would not go naked in front of any child unless it was an accident or the parents new about it. case in point, i was changing in my bedroom and my 7 yr. old son and a friend ran in the room and saw me naked. no biggy, i just explained i was getting dressed and answered my son's question (he is very used to me being naked). no biggie, i did not run and hide, i just was naked and it was no big deal. since the friend is used to seeing my son naked, he was not shocked, he just turned around and walked to the bedroom door to give me some privacy.

maybe i should move to finland where people are not so freaky abouot their naked body. i just do not see what the big deal is??

[Nude in the North]

When one of my Sisters' in Law and her Daughter unexpectedly came over and "Caught" me nude , there was no Earth shaking problem. I was the one that was startled, because I didn't know they were in the house untill I walked into the kitchen.
All they did was giggle a little.

I sliped into some shorts and joined them again in the kitchen.
I started to "explain" why I was nude, but they said " Don't worry about it. It's ok. "

They both seemed more ammused than "Shocked".
My SIL knows I'm a nudist, but I doubt she had told my niece before they came over that I might be nude when they get here.

Maybe I should have asked if it would be ok to remain nude while they were here.
Next chance I get, I'm going to talk to my SIL to find out.

Steve

[Gary Naturist]

Stu said: It should be left upto parents to decide whether or not they bring up their own children to see adult nudity.

Not necessarily. Would you say the same if the parents wanted to pass on their hatred of blacks, gays, Jews, Arabs or their rejection of people with physical disabilities?

A parent's right to inculcate (first time ever for that word) their own values in their kids is not absolute. When necessary, society steps in to override what some people, parents included, espouse.

At some point, society will decide that it's important for people to have healthier attitudes about the human body, their own and others. As part of this educational process, we'll be taught to have a more natural and comfortable attitude towards the human body and all of its 2000 parts.

Gary

NudeAl

"When in doubt check with the parents...."

Absolutely! You are clearly considerate and respectful of the rights of parents do decide what is and what is not appropriate for THEIR children to see.

Kari P

"Your principle doesn't work in every culture".

I readily accept that society in Finland has a different attitude towards nudity than the UK does. So I agree that what may be OK in one culture may not be right in another.

"Thus there is no logical reason to "protect" children from seeing non-sexual adult nudity."

Perhaps not in Finland. But most western Europeans aren't disposed to allowing children to see adult nudity. They would never dream of showing nudists enjoying a beach on children's television - or even at a time when many children would be likely to be watching - in most European nations.

"There are millions of other things that can undermine the efforts of the parents to bring up their children with their values".

It's true that we can't determine with certainty everything that our children see but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to exercise some control. We try to stop our children seeing pornography. Most parents wouldn't be happy allowing their kids to see animals being slaughtered, or people being executed, or the news reports graphically showing the aftermath of a suicide bombing. My youngest daughter (aged 8) knows these dreadful things happen but she doesn't need to see them for herself. She knows that some people are naturists because I have told her. I am happy for her to know about naturists and to know that they have a legitimate lifestyle. But I would be horrified if she saw some naturists enjoying their passtime in all their nakedness.

Bob S.

"Psychological damage is done when parents tell their children that they should avoid nudity at all costs".

I have yet to meet any parents who tell their children that. Do such parents exist? Responsible parents teach children that there is a time and place for nudity - their own nudity an dother peoples. Textile parents such as myself do our best to prevent our children from exposing their 'private' parts in the presence of others and from seeing the private parts of adults - especially adults of the opposite sex. To us, certain parts of the body are intimate.

Textile parents, even fairly strict ones like ourselves, have managed to bring up our children successfully and without causing any psychological hang-ups for generations - centuries! Textilism is just as legitimate a way of raising children as is naturism.

It's not just about causing kids 'trauma' if they see a naked person. It's also about kids being instilled with the values of their own parents to regard certain parts of the body as intimate and not for general public display.

"If they are being overly curious about the naked body, that is a great time to teach them about the anatomical differences between boys and girls, teach them about your beliefs in privacy, etc."

Parents should have a say in how and when their children learn about the different anatomy of boys and girls. It's not the God-given duty of naturists to forcibly give them that education whenever they feel like it.

"Your beleifs are your beleifs. You can teach them to your children but you can't protect them from others who have opposing beliefs. To do so is a form of psychological harm."

As I explained to Kari, all responsible parents exercise a right of veto on what their children can and do see. That's why there are parental controls on Internet browsers, satellite television etc, and why certain films and even certain books are not supplied to minors. You shouldn't try to stop them from encountering other ideas, philosophies and values. But you can and should keep certain inappropriate material from them such as porn, extreme violence etc. Whether nudity is kept from them is up to the parents to decide - not naturists.

"...her father, not realizing they have any guests, could come into his daughter's room naked".

Momentary accidental nudity is one of those things that can happen. If it does then you can live with that. It's one thing if your child falls and grazes their knee - it's nobody's fault and the harm is soon over. But for someone to intentionally strike their knee with a baseball bat is an entirely different matter.

"But if she just witnessed something that went against my own belief or value system, that would be the time to reinforce our own beliefs."

Isn't that precisely what I'm advocating?

florida-david

"a naked human body is no different than seeing a naked dog in someone's yard or a monkey at the zoo. we are all animals, and our natural state is naked."

It's vastly different, David. One of my nieces was raised on a stud farm and she regularly saw mares being sired. But she never witnessed my sister and brother-in-law having sexual intercourse! And sex is perfectly natural - just as natural as nudity is. Animals don't wear clothes, people do. And the vast majority of people on this planet are clothed for the vast majority of their lives, and this has been the case for thousands of years. Even neanderthalls wore hand-sewn clothing 200,000 years ago! Wearing clothes is the default state of human beings and nudity is the exception. Clothing has become natural for us.

"i would not go naked in front of any child unless it was an accident or the parents new about it."

Great! So you wouldn't contrive the situation. That's all I would expect.

"maybe i should move to finland where people are not so freaky abouot their naked body. i just do not see what the big deal is??"

That's because you're a naturist. You have forgotten how you reacted before you became a naturist.

Nude in the North

"Maybe I should have asked if it would be ok to remain nude while they were here.
Next chance I get, I'm going to talk to my SIL to find out."

Let us know what she says. It's one thing if they drop on you unexpectedly whilst you are nude but for you to remain that way in her presence, or in the presence of a female you don't know, might be quite different.

I have two sisters-in-law (my wife's sister and my brother's wife). If either of them were to come to my home unanounced to find me naked they would be amazed and probably amused. But their amusement would quickly turn into revulsion and possibly fury if I didn't get some clothes on pronto!

Gary Naturist

"Would you say the same if the parents wanted to pass on their hatred of blacks, gays, Jews, Arabs or their rejection of people with physical disabilities?"

Parents are free to teach their kids anything they like - including hatred. We have to hope that, by the time the child is old enough to think for themselves they will reject such objectionable views.

I think you are trying to equate two totally different thing, Gary. One is a parental right to instill values about when and where it is appropriate to be nude and that certain parts of the body are private and intimate and not to be displayed. The other is to hate those who practice the doctrine of naturism. I have taught my kids the former - never the latter.

"At some point, society will decide that it's important for people to have healthier attitudes about the human body, their own and others".

But YOUR opinion of what is a healthy attitude about the human body and MY opinion are different. Your approach implies coercion of people who largely share my attitude away from their present standpoint and towards yours. The population would never tolerate such interference from the state. And I don't believe the state would ever go there even if they did share your views.

"As part of this educational process, we'll be taught to have a more natural and comfortable attitude towards the human body and all of its 2000 parts."

And who'll decide that we all need this education?

Stu

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
They would never dream of showing nudists enjoying a beach on children's television - or even at a time when many children would be likely to be watching - in most European nations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree that it is highly unlkely that children's television would broadcast naturist material but the same cannot be said of broadcasting footage of nudists "enjoying a beach" "at a time when many children would be likely to be watching". The BBC showed exactly that in the opening shots (and throughout the programme) of a recent documentary about Studland Beach and the National Trust broadcast at 8.00 pm a Sunday night.

Surely you remember? If not here's a reminder...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/nationaltrust1.shtml

Rik

[Bob S.]

"You are clearly considerate and respectful of the rights of parents do decide what is and what is not appropriate for THEIR children to see."

That is my argument as well. When we can, we should respect parental priveledge. But the big question is what happens when the parental right and the right of others collide? Who should come out ahead? There should always be times when the right of others trumps the parental right and vice-versa.

"Textile parents, even fairly strict ones like ourselves, have managed to bring up our children successfully and without causing any psychological hang-ups for generations"

It depends on how you define "psychological damage." Not ever wanting anyone to see themselves naked, even to the point of changing in a locker room with a towel around you is not healthy. Not showering at a health club or at school because you do not want anyone else to see you naked is not healthy. Seeing a picture of a naked child and instantly thinking "sexual abuse" is not healthy.

And actually, something you said may lead her to confusion. "I am happy for her to know about naturists and to know that they have a legitimate lifestyle. But I would be horrified if she saw some naturists enjoying their passtime in all their nakedness." In other words, what you are saying to her is that naturists are fine to talk about, but not to ever see!

Yes, parents have raised their children for generations, but you cannot claim that they have no hang-ups. We have one of the highest teen-pregnancy rates while being the most puritanical about nudity, yet we sell products with sexual appeal without fully talking to our children about sex. We are a psychologically hung-up society over here.

"Parents should have a say in how and when their children learn about the different anatomy of boys and girls. It's not the God-given duty of naturists to forcibly give them that education whenever they feel like it."

The parents should be responding to their children's questions whenever they have them at an age-appropriate level. It's the children who decide when they ask the questions and the parents who decide what they hear. And why are you turning this debate into a public nudity debate, which is not about naturists anyway? I am arguing about if a child happens to come upon a naked figure either in my example or in a work of art or if you accidentally walk onto a nude beach. I am not arguing for the right to go naked anywhere I want regardless of who is around.

"Isn't that precisely what I'm advocating?"

Not from what I read. Everything I have read from you has been protecting the children from nudity and parental rights to raise their children as they see fit. I have never read that you would use an exposure of nudity or any other opposing view to yours as a chance to reinforce your own values.

"You have forgotten how you reacted before you became a naturist."

Before I even knew about nudism, I was about 14 and in my doctor's office. While there, I picked up a magazine and inside they had an article about the photographer, Sally Mann who is known for her artistic pictures of her children, occasionally nude. I still remember the first one I saw, Jesse Mann, who was about 9 in the picture, and she was topless.

Before that, two times I recall seeing a girl either naked or topless. I was a preteen (9-12) for both of these incidents, once a five-year-old girl was outside without a shirt, another time, my cousin did a handstand while wearing her nightgown. SHe wasn't wearing anything underneath and fell. None of thoes times was I shocked or in any way embarassed by the nudity. Many times growing up I would see my mother or father naked while changing or going to the bathroom. Nothing.

"We have to hope that, by the time the child is old enough to think for themselves they will reject such objectionable views."

We have that same hope for children in textile homes.

Bob S.

[Kari P]

Stu,

"We try to stop our children seeing pornography. Most parents wouldn't be happy allowing their kids to see animals being slaughtered, or people being executed, or the news reports graphically showing the aftermath of a suicide bombing."

These are clearly different things than harmless simple nudity. There will be no psychological damage to a child from seeing a naked adult, the other things can damage.

On the other hand it isn't healthy for children if their parents do whatever they can to prevent them seeing nudity, by strict control of access to newspapers, magazines and tv programs (porn not included). This way the children are taught to view nudity as a forbidden fruit which brings extra fascination into it. Sex, as it is very probably handled the same way by the same parents, likewise - and the connection of nudity and sex has been founded in the minds of the children because they cannot see the difference. This kind of upbringing supports the porn industry.

"Textilism is just as legitimate a way of raising children as is naturism."

What is textilism? Do you realize that there are many variations of non-naturist upbringing, not only your kind of? For example the way of upbringing in a typical Finnish family, where nudity among the family is not a big deal, only not practised by adults in a naturist way.

Parents have their legitimate rights. The society denies their rights only in extreme cases, where there is absolute certainty about that the parents are causing permanent injury to their child.

"But you can and should keep certain inappropriate material from them such as porn, extreme violence etc. Whether nudity is kept from them is up to the parents to decide - not naturists."

You are right, but you are extending the parental right of control to what children may see from inappropriate material to real people who cannot be controlled the same way. If we are talking about nudity on public beaches and in public parks... In the proper subject, you can pleased to know that the law enforcement in Finland still discourages this kind of "very public" nudity. But I predict that a change will happen some time.

Kari P

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gary Naturist:
Stu said: It should be left upto parents to decide whether or not they bring up their own children to see adult nudity.

Not necessarily. Would you say the same if the parents wanted to pass on their hatred of blacks, gays, Jews, Arabs or their rejection of people with physical disabilities?

A parent's right to inculcate (first time ever for that word) their own values in their kids is not absolute. When necessary, society steps in to override what some people, parents included, espouse.

Gary <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, if the parent's prejudices and hangups aren't removed, they will be passed on. The best way to ensure that parents don't pass on hateful attitudes is for the parents to change those attitudes.

[OZJames]

Jochannan - "Unfortunately, if the parent's prejudices and hangups aren't removed, they will be passed on. The best way to ensure that parents don't pass on hateful attitudes is for the parents to change those attitudes. "


I am now age 61 yrs. I was brought by my mother and an unmarried Aunt both with very old fashioned Victorian attitudes. In the middle of last century sex, nudity, swearing etc was not seen nor heard on the radio or films. Censorship made sure of that. Even books were censored in libraries.

Despite an interest in nudity all my life, until recent years I could not break away from those prejudices and hangups - as Jochannan suggested, they were passed on to me and despite some occasional nudity when We brought up our children, it passed on on our sons. However the world is different now and with the help of great wisdom in forums such as this, the relaxation of censorship allowing nudity on TV and films & books with anything goes, it seems that people can be more relaxed do what they like and are not seen to be eccentric.

Parent's attitudes have changed and are continuing to change. Todays generation of children are so much better off than last centuries children and have a much better chance of growing up without hangups.

Keep up the fantastic discussion.

JAMES

[florida-david]

"maybe i should move to finland where people are not so freaky abouot their naked body. i just do not see what the big deal is??"

That's because you're a naturist. You have forgotten how you reacted before you became a naturist.

stu, i was not raised as a naturist, i was raised to have an open mind. my parents were pretty conservative about nudity in their home. as i get older, i realize nudity is less of an issue than it should be. the human animal is brainwashed into thinking we should be clothed. we only need clothes for protection from the natural elements. but since we are all happily tucked into our conditioned homes, why do we need clothes other than to keep the fashion industry going?? i do not like to promote an industry that historically takes advantage of workers and markets products based on sexual appeal. as you know, sexual based marketing appeals to kids, so non-sexual nudity would help defuse the marketing of the fashion industry, which, in my opinion, would be good for kids.

[Ren]

The more freedom in society, the more the free want to limit the freedom. Always the way isn't it?

I had an interest in nudism as a kid before I even considered things in a sexual manner. As I got older, those two things intermingled with me. Perhaps, had I been in an environment that didn't view nudity as equated to sex, it would've been different. I mean, National Geographic goes from jealousy about the people living nakedly to child's first skin rag in a lot of cases. Yet there's nothing sexual about the nudity inside of it.

Now, so, a kid shouldn't perceive nudity in a sexual manner unless someone in the predominant society deems them equals. I think for me, it came from the churchly warnings, because at home there was no issue till the catechism teachings pushed me into a cocoon. Until then, from what I know, you couldn't keep me in clothes.

And there's the problem. Modern (western?) society has hang-ups and fears about sex, ergo nudism is considered wrong. Maybe it's the adults with the twisted notions who should be given a primer. I don't know of any child who is scandalized by it unless he is told to be as such.

Jochanaan

"The best way to ensure that parents don't pass on hateful attitudes is for the parents to change those attitudes."

I agree. But you wouldn't suggest that normal textile parents like myself and my wife who have never allowed our children to see us undressed and discourage them from allowing people of the opposite sex from seeing them undressed have what you call a "hateful attitude". Or would you?

OZJames

"Todays generation of children are so much better off than last centuries children and have a much better chance of growing up without hangups".

I agree. But it has to be a judgement call for individual parents to make with regard to their own children. And sometimes what you call 'hang-ups' are there for good reasons.

florida-david

"stu, i was not raised as a naturist, i was raised to have an open mind. my parents were pretty conservative about nudity in their home. as i get older, i realize nudity is less of an issue than it should be".

David - you have clearly found something you like. That's great! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But don't lose sight of the 'shock-value' nudity can still have for the rest of us, as it may have had for you at one time. Whilst shock isn't a very nice thing to experience, we don't necessarily want to change our sensibilities thresholds.

"the human animal is brainwashed into thinking we should be clothed. we only need clothes for protection from the natural elements."

Oh I think clothes serve far more purposes than merely to keep us warm. Even in the hottest climates of the world the wearing of clothes by human beings has been the norm for thousands of years. Apart from a few primitive tribes, many of which don't have the necessary skills or resources to make durable clothing, can you point to any society where nudity has been the norm?

Ren

"And there's the problem. Modern (western?) society has hang-ups and fears about sex, ergo nudism is considered wrong".

I have yet to meet anyone who thinks nudism is wrong. Most children in modern western society are brought up to be dressed and 'decent' when in the company of others. For kids beyond the age of about 4 years, naked is a state you are in when you're having a bath or a shower. The default state is clothed. It's almost a manners thing - like eating with a knife and fork and not putting your feet on the furniture. I think naturists exaggerate the nudity=sex thing when it comes to textiles.

"Maybe it's the adults with the twisted notions who should be given a primer."

What sort of 'twisted notions'? And who has them?

"I don't know of any child who is scandalized by it unless he is told to be as such."

Children are taught what is good behaviour and what is unacceptable. If they are brought up, as mine have been, to regard nudity as something that should only occur when bathing or showering, and that it's not appropriate to wander about the house with nothing on (or in your underwear) then they accept that. They then apply that if they see other people transgressing a rule they regard as universally accepted.

Bearing in mind that textile kids (like my own) have been brought up never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age. At some point they learn the facts of like and learn that sex occurs between a man and a woman and they are sometimes naked when this happens. Then is it not surprising that, having never seen a naked person of the opposite sex in the flesh, but the occasional scene from a film where that person is involved in sex, they do associate nudity with sex. But as they get older and more sophisticated they learn to disentangle sex from nudity. No hang-ups. No harm done.

Stu

[Gary Naturist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stu2630:
Jochanaan

Bearing in mind that textile kids (like my own) have been brought up never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age. At some point they learn the facts of like and learn that sex occurs between a man and a woman and they are sometimes naked when this happens. Then is it not surprising that, having never seen a naked person of the opposite sex in the flesh, but the occasional scene from a film where that person is involved in sex, they do associate nudity with sex. But as they get older and more sophisticated they learn to disentangle sex from nudity. No hang-ups. No harm done.

Stu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You child-rearing strategy as described above boggles my mind. No hang-ups? No harm done? No thanks to you.

Gary

[OZJames]

Stu, I think a "hangup" is something negative. If you have a hangup then you have lost the ability to reason for yourself. I agree that parents have the right and duty to bring up their children properly to the best of their ability but I dont think that they should intentionaly give that child a "hangup" even if, in your opinion, the hangup is correct.

Children should be taught to learn, (about nudity and for that matter everythging else), to understand nudity and to make their own decisions. I child with hangups about nudity may well have hangups about sex - they are very closely associated.

From my personal experiance, hangups are caused when parents make the extreme decision to hide their bodies from their children. I cannot believe that you are against family nudity, such as going nude about the house to the bathroom, to the laundry to find some clothes etc in total privacy from outside.


JAMES

[Bob S.]

stu, I don't think Jochanaan was referring to textilism when he said "hateful attitudes". I think he was referring to the prejudices of ethnic and other groups.

"And sometimes what you call 'hang-ups' are there for good reasons."

So it is good to see nudity and be shocked? What reason do we have for that?

"Oh I think clothes serve far more purposes than merely to keep us warm."

Yes they do. But David's comment was about needing clothes. Except for the elements, name another reason for "needing" clothes. Nearly all other reaons for clothes are preference or wanting, not needing.

And I would like to know at what point nudity became something that is shocking (using your words)? For the majority of mankind's existence on this blue and green orb, nudity has been second nature, even after the invention of clothes.

"I have yet to meet anyone who thinks nudism is wrong...I think naturists exaggerate the nudity=sex thing when it comes to textiles."

I could find for you many incidents in the US where people are openly against nudism. And for the idea that nudity=sex in some people's minds, even nudism nudity, see the following link. CitizenOnline.net (http://www.citizenonline.net/citizen/archive/articleC429215747D14A30B1154FB776D3C12D.asp) This woman, Jacquelyn Mitchard, denounces the nudist summer camps for teens because of the inherent sexuality that teenagers feel. She feels that these camps will cause more teenage pregnancies.

"They then apply that if they see other people transgressing a rule they regard as universally accepted."

But you have told your daughter that it is fine for them to do that. So what is she going to think about nude beaches or nudist parks?

"At some point they learn the facts of like and learn that sex occurs between a man and a woman and they are sometimes naked when this happens."

But part of the facts of life is learning the anatomical difference between boys and girls. And that can be best accomplished by actual showing. In many cases of non-nudist families, the children learn about nudity either by siblings with or without parents knowledge or by theri own friends.

Sex is not something that needs to be taught necessarily. After a certain age, children automatically know how to have sex. It is ingrained in our brains. But if children have never seen a member of the opposite sex naked, then they can get some sexual hang-ups. They may obsess about the need to see their friend naked.

"But as they get older and more sophisticated they learn to disentangle sex from nudity. No hang-ups. No harm done."

That does not always happen. Many people cannot "disentangle" sex and nudity. If we could, then nudist forums such as this would not have to handle so many erection questions. I have seen a number of men who say that they cannot get undressed without having an erection. See the abovementioned site for a woman who cannot disentangle them. That is what the entire fiasco this summer about the nudist teen summer camps was about. That is why people have had to be interrogated by the police after getting their photos developed only to have a naked child picture cause a problem. That is why we have to be vigilant and not allow any sexual behaviour at nude beaches because if it gets out that one couple engaged in sexual intercourse, it can get shut down for nude use.

Wasn't the British legislature going to make nudity a sexual offense? That is how it is in a number of states here. Indecent exposure can get you on the sex offender's registry. Many people still believe that nudity outside the bathroom is sexualized nudity. And that includes those who make the laws.

No hang-ups? No harm done??

Bob S.

James,

"Stu, I think a "hangup" is something negative."

If something really IS a hang-up, and causes a perso problems in their life, then I agree. But I don't accept that textile families such as my own have any such hang-ups.

"Children should be taught to learn...to understand nudity and to make their own decisions".

Of course. But kids learn values fro parents and more often than not they take on those values. My kids were brought up to know that there is a very small minority of people who, for reasons only they understand, enjoy being naked with each other. What else do they need to know?

"I child with hangups about nudity may well have hangups about sex - they are very closely associated".

Er...I thought nudity and sex were unconnected. They are in my mind and we taught our kids that they are.

"From my personal experiance, hangups are caused when parents make the extreme decision to hide their bodies from their children".

That's not a "extreme" decision. It's been the most normal way for most people in western cultures for a century or two. Do you think all your great-grandparents allowed your grandparents to see them naked?

"I cannot believe that you are against family nudity, such as going nude about the house to the bathroom, to the laundry to find some clothes etc in total privacy from outside".

I most certainly am when it comes to my own family! There is NO WAY any of my kids have seen either my wife or myself nude.

Bob S.

"So it is good to see nudity and be shocked? What reason do we have for that?"

It's a natural reaction when you are brought up not to see nudity and to regard certain parts of the body as very private and intimate.

"Nearly all other reaons for clothes are preference or wanting, not needing."

We could get into an unproductive semantic argument here, Bob, but I think that our 'need' for clothing is culturally inspired but nevertheless important. You could say that we don't 'need' love, or the company of others, etc and physically we don't. But we still regard these things as an essential part of our human experience.

"And I would like to know at what point nudity became something that is shocking (using your words)? For the majority of mankind's existence on this blue and green orb, nudity has been second nature, even after the invention of clothes".

Well let's take the UK - where I live. Human beings have always worn clothes here. If clothes didn't exist then people wouldn't be able to exist in our climate. So for a British person wearing clothing is as natural and fundamental as eating. The same applies to most of the places on this planet where man has settled.

"I could find for you many incidents in the US where people are openly against nudism".

OK, Bob, I accept that in the US you have more than your fair share of religious fanatics. They don't think nudity is wrong because they don't think at all for themselves. They are told what to think. So I'll rephrase my statement and state tha I have never heard any thinking person state that nudity is morally wrong.

"But you have told your daughter that it is fine for them to do that. So what is she going to think about nude beaches or nudist parks?"

My (eldest) daughter thinks it's fine for nudists to have some private little places well out of sight the rest of us to practice their hobby and there is nothing wrong with that. She is very open-minded - she even has a friend who likes to dress up as Mr Spok and go to Star Trek conventions!! Each to their own.

"But part of the facts of life is learning the anatomical difference between boys and girls. And that can be best accomplished by actual showing".

They don't need to know about every single detail of the opposite sex's anatomy. An illustration in a sex education lesson is more than adequate for their needs.

"But if children have never seen a member of the opposite sex naked, then they can get some sexual hang-ups. They may obsess about the need to see their friend naked."

I have never come across a single instance of that with a textile family.

"I have seen a number of men who say that they cannot get undressed without having an erection."

I didn't know that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif And you say that I've got a problem with nudity!!

"Wasn't the British legislature going to make nudity a sexual offense?"

They have never planned to make it a specific offence - and it was certainly never envisaged that what a minister called "normal naturist activity" would be classed as a sexual offence. The reasons for this is that existing public order legislation is normally used against inappropriate public nudity. The problem with that is that it produces inconsistencies and so nobody is really sure what is and what is not permitted.

"No hang-ups? No harm done??"

The vast majority of kids brought up in strict textile homes are perfectly OK and without hang-ups or sexual problems. I know of no evidence to show otherwise.

Whilst we're talking about hang-ups - just take a look at this site from the Stop Segregation website:
http://www.geocities.com/thehumanmind/psychosis.html

And this on the personal website of the not-so-literate Mr Vincent Bethell:

http://geocities.com/cv14jh/

Now tell me he's sane!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Stu

[namedun]

"My kids were brought up to know that there is a very small minority of people who, for reasons only they understand, enjoy being naked with each other". -Stu

Perhaps what you don't realize is that they've also been brought up to know that there is a majority of people who, for very few legitamet reasons they don't even know, enjoy being clothed around each other.

Namedun /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Kari P]

Stu,

"That's not a "extreme" decision. It's been the most normal way for most people in western cultures for a century or two."

No, no. You say I mean only Finland, but no, I refer to every country, especially to the life of ordinary low-class people. As much as you don't believe in what I say is normal, I don't believe in what you say.

"Do you think all your great-grandparents allowed your grandparents to see them naked?"

Yes, I do - I am absolutely sure about it. Every one in every generation from prehistory until now did it.

You ignored my earlier post where I asked you two questions: "What is textilism? Do you realize that there are many variations of non-naturist upbringing, not only your kind of?"

"It's a natural reaction when you are brought up not to see nudity and to regard certain parts of the body as very private and intimate."

But a shock when seeing nudity isn't a necessary reaction, and it isn't sane. Most families tell their kids that certain body parts are private but they still allow their children to see nudity or be nude in some contexts other than showering only.

"Well let's take the UK - where I live. Human beings have always worn clothes here. If clothes didn't exist then people wouldn't be able to exist in our climate. So for a British person wearing clothing is as natural and fundamental as eating. The same applies to most of the places on this planet where man has settled."

This isn't an answer to Bob's question. When nudity became shocking, and why? That we wear clothes most of the time because of our basic physical need to keep warm (you mention only this reason above!) doesn't explain the social norm to wear them nearly always. Where is the origin of "shame" (find your own word for it) of certain parts of the body? When and why they were declared private? A physical need isn't an explanation.

Kari P

[soofreeemateomanian]

"What Man can concieve, man can achieve'
- Jules Verne

Oh stu, you icon is a freaky face
views on wholesome good nudity you cannot embrace.
your views on nudity, we laugh in your face!
with every post, you feel obligated to replace.
we teach and teach and teach you more
it becomes quite a chore
for you have a limited mind
and within it you have confined
a world of your own, in which you find treasure
at sneering and ruining others pleasure
and we, it is our secret code
to hope you will spontaniously explode

thank you thank you

[TXK NUDE]

There once was a man named Stu
Who's head was stuck in poo!
Nudity he could not bear
But his rantings he loved to share
All because his pee-pee
He didn't like to see-see!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[soofreeemateomanian]

(continuation)

his wife was ashamed
stu thought "I must have been framed!"
he went to this site, in hopes of finding somthing smaller
but alas foolish him! he found the site by google and searched good and wholesome!
and now he treks to prove himself right
no one should have one bigger than his! and to this day he fights.
so no one can see his frightsome stick
too bad he does not realize we couldnt give a kick

[MikeJB]

"I agree. But you wouldn't suggest that normal textile parents like myself and my wife who have never allowed our children to see us undressed and discourage them from allowing people of the opposite sex from seeing them undressed have what you call a "hateful attitude". Or would you? "

Whats wrong with your children seeing you undressed? Its natural, even if you areint nudists, tons of children all over the world see their parents, siblings and relatives getting dressed and in various states of undress every day and there is no psychological harm done. Have you ever let them see you naked before? Maybe thats your problem, maybe you just THINK that something bad might happen if they see you naked, kids love nudity and if you dont teach them that the human body is something to be shameful about, then they wont have any negative reaction to your nakedness. As for the opposite sex, many people enjoy seeing others of the opposite sex nude and most people dont get aroused or sexually excited by seeing these things, only people who are mislead by parents and the society get that way when they see nude people of the opposite sex. If we follow your guidlines in this post without considering any outside info then it would be logically wrong for even a brother to see his sister naked, now dont get into the whole "well thats family so its different crap" because your statement says that seeing a person of the opposite sex is harmful WELL then even if they saw their own family members naked it would still cause the same effect because a nude family member has the same basic anatomy that a total stranger does. I mean anyone could find several loopholes just in this post alone.

"I agree. But it has to be a judgement call for individual parents to make with regard to their own children. And sometimes what you call 'hang-ups' are there for good reasons."

I can agree with the whole "parent has a right to chose how to raise their kid thing" BUT they really need to be mature about it when they do raise their children and open their minds to many different things and that includes nudity, which simple nudity such as nudist practice is not wrong and thus by keeping it from them you are denying them something that is beneficial for them and if you dont explain the facts about nudity and sex to them then they'll go somewhere else to get it and might get in more trouble and learn worse things than if you were just open and spat it out to them in the first place. I have never seen any example of a bad "nudist family" so these hang ups of yours really have no logical reason to be there.



"you have clearly found something you like. That's great! But don't lose sight of the 'shock-value' nudity can still have for the rest of us, as it may have had for you at one time. Whilst shock isn't a very nice thing to experience, we don't necessarily want to change our sensibilities thresholds."

Yes, but its not the nudist fault that you get "shocked" by such things, they need to learn that nudity is not something shocking or wrong just like the nudist probably had to when they were first exposed to it. Denying children the chance to see simple nudity in its puriest form only fuels this shockness and when they finally do see it they will have misconceptions about it and itll be alot harder to explain things especially if youve taught them that nudity is wrong in the first place. Society needs to learn to accept nudity, not be sheltered from it and given the easy and lazy way out, they gotta learn just like everyone else. I dont say they gotta like it, but they need to accept it.

"Oh I think clothes serve far more purposes than merely to keep us warm. Even in the hottest climates of the world the wearing of clothes by human beings has been the norm for thousands of years. Apart from a few primitive tribes, many of which don't have the necessary skills or resources to make durable clothing, can you point to any society where nudity has been the norm?"

Dont have the necessary skills? Im sure youre mistaken, many of these tribes are quite intelligent and the only reason they dont create clothing is because they find it uneccessary because of the climate and thus dont create it and also dont have the hang ups of our supposedly superior technological society which has alot more hang ups than they do. At least those tribes dont get sucked into a need for tv and computer 24/7 and isolate themselves from other people with their technology, I mean some technology is good and helpful but we should not act like just because we have that technology that we are superior to them, both us and those tribes are intelligent but we just chose to live our lives and use our knowledge in different ways and they just chose the more simple, sometimes primitive and nude lifestyle and many times our society is the one who pushes its way in and demands that they conform to our standards, which is wrong. I am sure that most of this information you have on other cultures is from sources that do not want you to know that there are people who live their whole lives isolated from our society naked, there are still many who do live their lives naked without our hangups and stupid and inconsistant textile worries.

"I have yet to meet anyone who thinks nudism is wrong. Most children in modern western society are brought up to be dressed and 'decent' when in the company of others."

Many people think nudism is wrong, including you, otherwise you wouldnt be against your children learning about the lifestyle, which just learning about a lifestyle isnt wrong, we cant isolate our children from things that to some could be potentially wrong. Many people = nudity with sex and thus have severe hangups about it and that leads to underage sex and pregnancies and stds and such, which we have some of the highest amounts of here, in our "textile" society, so i guess our little good and decent scheme doesnt work. Try adding up all the nudist families who have the same outcomes with their children, I bet you wont find many because the nudist lifestyle teaches from an early age what is right and wrong about the human body and kids learn about anatomy and the opposite sex early on and thus dont have any hangups when they reach their teen years and thus dont have problems with sex and pregnancy. People who cant accept others just because they are nude have issues, just like someone who wont accept a person just because they are clothed. Being nude isnt indecent, your actions while you are nude decide weither you are indecent or not.


"For kids beyond the age of about 4 years, naked is a state you are in when you're having a bath or a shower. The default state is clothed."

Says who? Since when has this been a rule? Oh, I guess all those people who take their 9-10 yr old kids to the beach and let them run around topless and nude are crazy then? I mean cmon, lots of people are nude when they are little, sometimes even up to puberty, its normal for kids to be nude and they enjoy it and try to be nude as much as possible, only when the parents barge in and scold their children and show them the evils of nudity that they find it wrong or indecent and thus they get a bad image of what being nude really is.

"It's almost a manners thing - like eating with a knife and fork and not putting your feet on the furniture. I think naturists exaggerate the nudity=sex thing when it comes to textiles."

Thats BS, our whole culture is dominated by SEX and the media uses NUDITY to fuel sex and they keep saying that if youre nude you must want sex. Now I dont know about you, but I dont think thats any message that any parent wants their child to have and when you make them wear clothes and see that people are only nude while bathing and during sex then what do you think they will see nudity as? They'll see it as a big sex fest and when they are found nude they will feel embarassed and feel like theyve done something wrong. Being nude and table manners are two very different things, there is nothing wrong about being nude, there is alot of things wrong about eating food improperly. As for the feet on the couch thing, I hate to say this but lots of people do that and as long as you dont put your shoes on the couch then I dont see any logical reason why you wouldnt wanna put your feet on the furniture.

"What sort of 'twisted notions'? And who has them?"

The ideas that kids seeing simple nudity will go nuts and have psychological problems, thats what. Also people like you who deny their children the chance to see nudity in its purest form are doing more harm than the fashion industry does and in fact are fueling it and keeping those rich greedy uncaring slobs in business by allowing your kids to be sucked into their delusions.

"Children are taught what is good behaviour and what is unacceptable."

Youre right but there is nothing wrong about nudity, it is good behavior and if its someplace private or with people with like minds who dont mind the nudity then its perfectly ok, I mean i think public nudity should be ok too but thatd be pushing it a bit now. Im just trying to say that there isnt anything bad about nudity and anyone who teaches their children that being nude, even in the saftey of their own home, is nuts.


"If they are brought up, as mine have been, to regard nudity as something that should only occur when bathing or showering, and that it's not appropriate to wander about the house with nothing on (or in your underwear) then they accept that. They then apply that if they see other people transgressing a rule they regard as universally accepted."

What? Am I hearing this right? Youre saying that you dont think its right for children to be nude in their own home? Who the hell made that rule up? Millions of children are nude and play and sleep in their own homes, thats the safest and by far best place to do it, other than a nudist resort or beach. I mean who is gonna see them? only you and since youre their parent you shouldnt be ashamed of seeing their naked bodies and honestly if you are ashamed of your own good children's bodies then buddy you got issues and really need some help. I sure as hell know that being clothed 24/7 isnt universely accepted, maybeonly in your own warped world.

"Bearing in mind that textile kids (like my own) have been brought up never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age."

Never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age? WELL, I guess their spouses are outta luck then huh? If you go along with that logic, also their bros and sisters should feel mightly ashamed if they see each other naked around the house. I mean CMON who is gonna buy into all this stuff, its nonsense and you keep stating how GOOD this stuff is but you give no logical reasons WHY, you just state what you beleive in and what you THINK society beleives in as a whole without anything to back you up.

"At some point they learn the facts of like and learn that sex occurs between a man and a woman and they are sometimes naked when this happens."

At some point? Geez man if you dont teach these kids about this stuff right away and they wanna know about it, they're gonna run off someplace and find someone else to talk to and get the 411 about it and beleive me these will probably be unreliable sources and by the time youre ready to give your kids their sermon on sex guess what, theyre already gonna be pregnant and have stds and be in macho trouble, so I mean unless you want this to happen and dont think it cant, you really oughta talk with em asap.


"Then is it not surprising that, having never seen a naked person of the opposite sex in the flesh, but the occasional scene from a film where that person is involved in sex, they do associate nudity with sex. But as they get older and more sophisticated they learn to disentangle sex from nudity. No hang-ups. No harm done."

Uh, huh! Yeah right. Many adults have hang ups about nudity and misconceptions between it and sex and beleive me, the last place you want your kids finding about about nudity and sex is films because the image there is oftentimes distored and usually doesnt contain all the facts, so if you leave it to those things to teach your kids what you oughta be teachin them then youre gonna be in for a world of hurt later down the road.

[Bob S.]

"But I don't accept that textile families such as my own have any such hang-ups."

Every family has hang-ups. We aren't perfect parents. And with your fear of nudity, I can't see how that wouldn't rub off on them.

"My kids were brought up to know that there is a very small minority of people who, for reasons only they understand, enjoy being naked with each other. What else do they need to know?"

The reasons why we enjoy being naked together. You have some of that info. You can pass that onto your children.

"I thought nudity and sex were unconnected."

No. As was said elsewhere (either on this site or Netnude) *paraphrasing* Nudism and sexual behaviour are unconnected. Nudity and sex have a connection.

"Do you think all your great-grandparents allowed your grandparents to see them naked?"

I think like Kari, that the majority of the families allowed for some familial nudity, including parental nudity that children witnessed. Heck, there used to be (and still is in some parts of the world) families with one bedroom. These families have more than one child. You do the math.

"It's a natural reaction when you are brought up not to see nudity and to regard certain parts of the body as very private and intimate."

Yes it is. But my question was what good is it to see nudity and be shocked? Is that a healthy reaction? Should my penis be your Kryptonite? Should seeing the naked breasts of a woman cause someone to jump out of their skin? Should the naked buttocks be so insulting to someone else? Who is the more healthy, the one who can view the naked body with no negative effects or the one who has the negative reactions?

"You could say that we don't 'need' love, or the company of others, etc and physically we don't."

We do physically. That has been attested to in the Romanian (I think) orphanages. If babies aren't held, they do not develop like normal babies do. They can be malnourished, not grow as fast, and a host of other problems. For adults, love and friendships keep us healthy. They boost our immune system, keep us from being depressed, which has its own list of physical symptoms, among other things.

"If clothes didn't exist then people wouldn't be able to exist in our climate..."

That wan't my question. We have already gone down that road before. I asked at what point nudity became shocking. When did someone look at another person's nudity and find it wrong? I am asking about the history of the negative reaction to simple nudity.

Bob S.

[soofreeemateomanian]

hey um,I would like to say give feedback on my poems!!!!!!!!

[Bob S.]

That last post was getting too long. Here is some more.


"OK, Bob, I accept that in the US you have more than your fair share of religious fanatics."

They are not all religious fanatics.

"They are told what to think."

And that is how society passes down its beliefs. You are told what to think. Someo f us have broken through that and come to the realization that society is wrong.

"she even has a friend who likes to dress up as Mr Spok and go to Star Trek conventions!! Each to their own.

NEVER EVER MISSPELL MR. SPOCK'S NAME, YOU HEATHEN!!! TAKE IT FROM A TREKKIE NERD, WE TAKE OUR TREK UNIVERSE VERY SERIOUSLY! Sorry for that rant.

"I have never come across a single instance of that with a textile family."

Obsess was too strong of a word. I am sure that your children all were interested in the nudity of the opposite sex. And you may have shown them pictures, but that will not satisfy their curiosity. You have said that pictures of nudity is different than actual nudity. I know I was interested in nudity, but I had my sister to see when I was younger. After we stopped bathing together, I was still curious and found the proverbial "National Geographic."

Do you wonder why the many porn sites and mags are so popular? Because that is where people (mainly men) can actually see nudity. I would say that a good number of them are there because they haven't been able to see nudity in their regualr lives. I was lucky that I found a nudist site where I found out that I was not alone. Where I could read a site that described who I was. I could have easily been attracted to the nudie sites as my only way to see naked women. And that would have warped my ideas of women.

"And you say that I've got a problem with nudity!!"

Society has the biggest problem with nudity. And recognizing the problem is the first step toward solving it.

"The vast majority of kids brought up in strict textile homes are perfectly OK and without hang-ups or sexual problems."

You are comparing them to normal society. See my above statement. They do have hang-ups. I define a negative reaction to nudity as a hang-up. The normal reaction to nudity should be neutral. It is a neutral stimulus unless you have been conditioned to thinking that it is negative.

"Whilst we're talking about hang-ups - just take a look at this site from the Stop Segregation website:"

I never said that they didn't have their own hang-ups. But their hang-up is that they are impatient for others to get to where they are.

Bob S.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
NEVER EVER MISSPELL MR. SPOCK'S NAME, YOU HEATHEN!!! TAKE IT FROM A TREKKIE NERD, WE TAKE OUR TREK UNIVERSE VERY SERIOUSLY! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Heretic! The correct term is Trekker!

Now go forth and sin no more...

[Rex]

There is a young fellow named Stu,
Who of nudism hasn't a clue,
Because he feels shame,
At his own mortal frame,
He thinks others should be ashamed too.

I realise that with my own name,
I'm just asking for more of the same,
But if we can smile,
Lighten up for a while,
Then we'll know it's just part of the game.

So poets, Tom, Dick, Harry or Peter,
If you think your opinion is sweeter,
And you put it in verse,
Then don't be averse,
To the rules of rhyme, tempo and meter.

[TXK NUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
NEVER EVER MISSPELL MR. SPOCK'S NAME, YOU HEATHEN!!! TAKE IT FROM A TREKKIE NERD, WE TAKE OUR TREK UNIVERSE VERY SERIOUSLY!

Bob S. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You go, Bob! Live long and definitely prosper! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[TXK NUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naturistmark1:
Heretic! The correct term is Trekker!

Now go forth and sin no more... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mark, Trekkie is the "old school" terminology, and to some the more "orthodox" position. A Trekker is the more "new school" and "reformed" position! I mean, if we're going to make Star Trek a religion and all.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kari

"As much as you don't believe in what I say is normal, I don't believe in what you say".

Then we'll just have to disagree - nicely! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"Every one in every generation from prehistory until now did it."

How extraordinary! Now that MUST be a Finland thing. My Victorian ancestors would almost certainly have winced at the very idea!

"What is textilism?"

I don't know. The word is an invention of naturists presumably to define those who are not naturists. You are a naturist and I am not. So you tell me.

"Do you realize that there are many variations of non-naturist upbringing, not only your kind of?"

I do realise that. We often talk of naturists and textiles as though everyone is strictly one or the other. I am sure there are great variations in attitudes and behaviours of people from both categories.

"But a shock when seeing nudity isn't a necessary reaction, and it isn't sane".

Of course it's sane. We are human beings and things that we are not used to seeing can shock us. That applies just as much to natural as well as artificial phenomena.

"Most families tell their kids that certain body parts are private but they still allow their children to see nudity or be nude in some contexts other than showering only".

I don't know it that's true. I my experience most parents don't allow their children (apart, perhaps from babies, to see the naked. Remember that attitudes about nudity in Finland aren't typical of those in the rest of Europe or North America.

"When nudity became shocking, and why?"

I can't give you a specific date. I'm not even sure of the reason. I think it evolved as a result of people in the Middle Ages and right upto the beginning of the twentieth century almost never being naked. Remember that for several centuries most people only took a bath once or twice a year and wouldn't change their clothes for months on end. Ewwwww! Even sex was something people did fully clothed.

"Where is the origin of "shame" (find your own word for it) of certain parts of the body?"

I don't know. Perhaps we just got used to not seeing nudity. I'm glad we did. I want to keep things that way and I think many people agree with me.

mike

"Whats wrong with your children seeing you undressed?"

We just never allowed it. We weren't comfortable with the idea.

"..tons of children all over the world see their parents, siblings and relatives getting dressed and in various states of undress every day..."

I know. But that's not how we chose to live. My wife never even sees me nude and I prefer not to see her in that state. It's just our way and I accept it's not very common these days. But we have still had three children together!

"If we follow your guidlines in this post without considering any outside info then it would be logically wrong for even a brother to see his sister naked, now dont get into the whole "well thats family so its different crap" because your statement says that seeing a person of the opposite sex is harmful"

I've never said that or anything like it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Every family has its own attitude to nudity and that's how it should be.

"... and open their minds to many different things and that includes nudity, which simple nudity such as nudist practice is not wrong and thus by keeping it from them you are denying them something that is beneficial for them"

What is the 'benefit'? I can't see any benefit of allowing children to see adults' genitals - because that's what we're talking about here.

"and if you dont explain the facts about nudity and sex to them then they'll go somewhere else to get it"

There aren't any 'facts' about nudity. They know what they look like naked because they take reglar baths. They learn about sex when they're old enough (e.g. around 11 or 12 years) at school.

"they need to learn that nudity is not something shocking or wrong"

They need to learn that there are times and places to be nude but otherwise we stay dressed.

"Society needs to learn to accept nudity, not be sheltered from it and given the easy and lazy way out, they gotta learn just like everyone else. I dont say they gotta like it, but they need to accept it."

Why? Because a small minority thinks it's good for them? No way.

"many of these tribes are quite intelligent and the only reason they dont create clothing is because they find it uneccessary because of the climate and thus dont create it"

Look around at some of these tribes, e.g. in Africa or Borneo or the Amazon basin and you will see that they have abandoned nudity in favour or western clothing!

"Many people think nudism is wrong, including you, otherwise you wouldnt be against your children learning about the lifestyle",

I haven't stopped my kids from learning about your lifestyles! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Read what I said again. I have told them there are a few people who have an 'inclination' to take off all their clothes and hang about with others who have the same. They weren't shocked - they thought it was quite funny (and a bit rude!). But I wouldn't allow them to go to a naturist location whilst they were still children. Once they're over 18 (as my eldest daughter is now) then it's their decision.

"Being nude isnt indecent, your actions while you are nude decide weither you are indecent or not".

Being nude inappropriately is both indecent and offensive, regardless of your actions. So it's OK to be nude in the bath, or momentarily in your bedroom when getting changed, or even (if you're into it) on a naturist beach. But it's not generally OK in other public places or in private places if somebody might object.

"Says who? Since when has this been a rule?"

This seems to be the universally accepted rule - well, accepted by all but a few naturists.

"Oh, I guess all those people who take their 9-10 yr old kids to the beach and let them run around topless and nude are crazy then?"

9 or 10 year olds??? Sorry but that's not OK in my book. My kids NEVER played naked on a beach at any age. I've seen 3 and 4 year olds doing that and I prefer not to see it but at ages 9 or 10 I'd be making a complaint. I've never seen that - not even on a Danish beach!

"..its normal for kids to be nude and they enjoy it and try to be nude as much as possible.."

Says who? That's not my experience.

"and when you make them wear clothes and see that people are only nude while bathing and during sex then what do you think they will see nudity as?"

They'll see nudity as a state you get into during bathing or showering or. When they reach the apprpriate age they will also know that there are some people who like to be nude whe they're having sexual intercourse. No problem.

"..there is nothing wrong about being nude, there is alot of things wrong about eating food improperly".

What? Why can't people just eat in any way they find comfortable? Why should they use a knife and fork in a restaurant when they could use their fingers? Why can't they lick the plate clean or drink soup straight from the bow? That's not logical, is it? Well of course they can do these things if either they are alone, or they are with others who are happy for them to do it. Same with being nude.

"Also people like you who deny their children the chance to see nudity in its purest form are doing more harm..."

What harm? I've raised three perfectly normal, well-balanced kids. My eldest is now 19 years, she is a medical student and has had a steady boyfriend for nearly two years. My son is 16 years old, is hoping to be an English teacher and he has had the same girlfriend for 10 months. He plays rugby and showers with the rest of his team. Our youngest daughter is just eight years oold and has no idea what a naked man looks like.

"I mean i think public nudity should be ok too but thatd be pushing it a bit now".

Yes that would be pushing it. It would cause offence and upset and would make people hostile towards naturists. Bear in mind that we are now in the midst of a worldwide paedophile witch-hunt. The profile of the typical paedophile is male and middle-aged - rather like the profile of the typical public nudity activist. The message is clear. Get naked in public and, if kids see you, you're at risk of getting labelled as an exhibitionist and possibly a paedophile. But that's for another thread.

"Im just trying to say that there isnt anything bad about nudity and anyone who teaches their children that being nude, even in the saftey of their own home, is nuts".

I can assure you that I'm not nuts.

"Youre saying that you dont think its right for children to be nude in their own home? Who the hell made that rule up?"

I never said that. I was talking about how WE brought OUR kids up. I wasn't making a moral judgement about those who are a tad more liberal than we are with regard to nudity.

"I sure as hell know that being clothed 24/7 isnt universely accepted, maybeonly in your own warped world".

I hate to discourage you but I think you'll find that, for the vast majority of people, being clothed at least 23/7 is the general rule. This is the real world, not a warped one. You see, most peple are clothed nearly all he time - when they are at work, out shopping, in the pub, visiting friends and family, and even at home. When not wearing proper clothing, people tend to wear nightdresses or pyjamas in bed and bathrobes or dressing gowns when out of bed.

"Never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age? WELL, I guess their spouses are outta luck then huh?"

I was talking about kids, not grown-ups.

"..you just state what you beleive in and what you THINK society beleives in as a whole without anything to back you up."

I accept that my family isn't especially typical. But, as textiles, we're a heck of a lot more typical than most people here when it comes to nudity.

"...theyre already gonna be pregnant and have stds and be in macho trouble, so I mean unless you want this to happen and dont think it cant, you really oughta talk with em asap."

You're a bit late as far as two of my three kids are concerned. They grew up just fine. The youngest looks set to follow them.

Stu

[NUDKIWI]

Stu
A while back,for decades it was "universally accepted" that the earth was flat.

Naturally KIWI /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Kari P]

Stu,

""What is textilism?" - So you tell me."

It looked like you meant by that word only the extreme point that you represent. I can see that there is a continuos scale of behaviour extending from "want always to be nude and allow others to see it without restrictions" to "want to be nude only when it is unavoidable and never allow others to see it". It is somewhat arbitrary where on this scale we put a mark that devides people to "naturists" and "textilists". Only near the extremes or when someone declares oneself as one or the other, it is clear if someone is "naturist" or "textilist".

Think about an ordinary family that is open about nudity within the family and where the adults say they could be naked at a naturist beach if only they knew for sure that no one who knows them doesn't see them. Are those people naturists even if they know nothing truthful about naturism and if they normally wear clothes at home? There are plenty of this kind of people. According to a poll made in Finland nearly half of the Finns would say "yes" to "Could you be naked at a naturist beach if..."?

"Remember that attitudes about nudity in Finland aren't typical of those in the rest of Europe or North America."

In the case that you or other readers have got a view of Finland that describes it as a naturist country, I must say that the view is delusion. The knowledge about naturism and the acceptance of public nudity is at a significantly higher level in central Europe (Germany, France etc.). You cannot speak about "the rest of Europe" nor about the North America assuming that the attitudes toward nudity are essentially similar everywhere in those geographical (not culturally homogenous) areas.

Kari P

Kari

"I can see that there is a continuos scale of behaviour..."

I agree.

"Think about an ordinary family that is open about nudity within the family..."

Yes. My own elder brother is like that. My sister, however, had attitudes about nudity more akin to mine.

"... and where the adults say they could be naked at a naturist beach if only they knew for sure that no one who knows them doesn't see them. Are those people naturists even if they know nothing truthful about naturism and if they normally wear clothes at home? There are plenty of this kind of people."

Now I don't believe that is so common. At least not with people I know. I would class them as semi-naturists.

"According to a poll made in Finland nearly half of the Finns would say "yes" to "Could you be naked at a naturist beach if..."?

I don't think you would get anything like half of all Britons to answer "yes" to such a poll.

"In the case that you or other readers have got a view of Finland that describes it as a naturist country, I must say that the view is delusion."

I never thought of Finland as a naturist country, but rather a country with a much more relaxed attitude to nudity than my own - and probably most other countries in Europe with the possible exception of Germany. After all, Finland is the home of the sauna.

"You cannot speak about "the rest of Europe" nor about the North America assuming that the attitudes toward nudity are essentially similar everywhere in those geographical (not culturally homogenous) areas."

I can speak of the countries that I have visited myself. I know Denmark very well and have many Danish friends and relatives. The Danish families I know are far closer on the continuum to my attitude than yours. I have, for example, discussed this with my friends Peder and Kirsten who live with their four children (girls 6 and 17, twin boys aged 9 ) who live in Karlslund, just south of Copenhagen. Peder says neither of his girls have seen him naked though both boys have. Kirsten was a bit more relaxed but she says the boys are getting of an age where she will both give privacy to them and expect to receive privacy from them. My wife has a female cousin, Helen, who is 41 years old and lives in Toledo, Spain with her Spanish husband 'Fern' and their 14 year old adopted daughter Ria. Helen and Ria stayed with us for three nights in July this year whilst Fern went to a business conference in London - it was her first time in England since 1984. If you think I'm anti-nudity you should meet Helen! She thinks women in low-cut tops are 'obscene' and was disgusted at some of the pictures she saw in The Sunday Times. I don't know what Spanish newspapers are like (?).

OK, what I'm telling you is anecdotal and your experience may be different. But it shows that people who have an aversion to nudity, even within the family, are not as uncommon as many here would have us believe.

Stu

[soofreeemateomanian]

Since I am a kid, I believe I am best qualified to answer this question. How has nudism affected my life? well, here it is

1. It has given me a less superfical idea on life, and how it goes on.
2. It has made me more mature of the human body(ughh some of my friends are so annoying about human anatomy
3. at my age, kids are going through changes, and it was nice to see that I wasn't gross or different.
4. it has made me realize how important the environment is, and how humans are really animals (did you know the raising of hair on your neck when you are afraid is an instinct to make yourself look bigger?
5. I learn better in school. I like being confident and not be insecure.
6. Instinct never has led anyone wrong. When we are kids,we really have no use for clothes. I wasn't ashamed when my mom was giving me a bath. Instinct is tarnished when we are taught to be ashamed of our own bodies, I mran, c'mon how is that different from a culture that wears only sleeves, because they think their arm is inapropriate. How is that different from what is society.
you think nudity is harmful stu, because you still believe nudity = sex. Well look at me, livin' proof that im not perverted from nudity. I am not corrupted from nudity am I? A lot of kids at school who arn't nudists and have been raised the way you are raising your kids right now are a lot more perverted and sex obsessed than me.

[MikeJB]

Okay, maybe I was a bit too harsh with some of those things I said. Basically I just strongly beleive in nudism and I really try to fight to prove my point, sometimes I go overboard and im sure you do the same with the textile context of things. So im gonna try to clear up some of what I said here.


"Whats wrong with your children seeing you undressed?

We just never allowed it. We weren't comfortable with the idea."


Thats ok not to be comfortable with it, but I honestly dont think you should deny them the chance to be nude, especially if they are home by themselves or someplace private away from others who might have an issue with it.

"..tons of children all over the world see their parents, siblings and relatives getting dressed and in various states of undress every day...

I know. But that's not how we chose to live. My wife never even sees me nude and I prefer not to see her in that state. It's just our way and I accept it's not very common these days. But we have still had three children together!"

Thats weird that you wouldnt want to see your wife nude and she wouldnt want to see you nude. Most people, even textile type people dont mind seeing each other nude if they are in the same family, most of the time family memebers are the only ones who usually think its ok to see each other nude.

"If we follow your guidlines in this post without considering any outside info then it would be logically wrong for even a brother to see his sister naked, now dont get into the whole "well thats family so its different crap" because your statement says that seeing a person of the opposite sex is harmful"

I've never said that or anything like it. Every family has its own attitude to nudity and that's how it should be."


I didnt say you did, but in the context of what you did say if you areint specific in what you say then people can take it the wrong way or think that you do indeed disagree with brothers and sisters seeing each other naked. Im just saying people could think that, I didnt say u actually meant that.

"... and open their minds to many different things and that includes nudity, which simple nudity such as nudist practice is not wrong and thus by keeping it from them you are denying them something that is beneficial for them"

What is the 'benefit'? I can't see any benefit of allowing children to see adults' genitals - because that's what we're talking about here."


They can see the real thing. Learning about something that is real, the real life experience is the best way to learn about it and its easier to accept it and not feel intimidated about if you see the real thing because drawings dont show the real thing, all they show is some facimile of what is real and often times the genitals dont even look like that or there can be mis understandings of things with children as schools are usually trying to promote "safe sex" more than anything else and kids think sex during their teens is ok as long as its supposedly safe and if they learn from a parent and see the actual genitals then they can have a much better understanding of them. Beleive me I went through sex ed class in High school and it was a bunch of bs.

"and if you dont explain the facts about nudity and sex to them then they'll go somewhere else to get it

There aren't any 'facts' about nudity. They know what they look like naked because they take reglar baths. They learn about sex when they're old enough (e.g. around 11 or 12 years) at school."

Yes there are, go to any nudist site and youll see the FACTS about nudity and as with sex, if you teach your kids about sex early on and youre the one to teach them then they wont find stuff out elsewhere and wont have misconceptions about it.

"they need to learn that nudity is not something shocking or wrong

They need to learn that there are times and places to be nude but otherwise we stay dressed."

Says who? I mean thats just what society says but like they have no moral or logical reasoning to back it up, just their own misunderstandings and dsyfunctional beleifs. The nudity=sex example is good, just because society generally beleives that if youre nude you obviously want sex doesnt mean that its right so just because they wear clothing 24/7 doesnt mean its right. If nudists hide from society, that'll make people beleive even more that nudity is wrong and something to be avoided and that isnt right.

"Society needs to learn to accept nudity, not be sheltered from it and given the easy and lazy way out, they gotta learn just like everyone else. I dont say they gotta like it, but they need to accept it.

Why? Because a small minority thinks it's good for them? No way."

I wouldnt say several million people that go to nudist resorts every year is a small minority. Beleive it or not, alot of your fellow coworkers, community leaders, etc can be nudists without you even knowing it, most nudists when they are in society keep it under wraps to avoid unwanted feedback from people who dont and probably wont ever understand it. Its just that the people you do know who are nudists are in a small minority and thus you dont think nudism is very popular and so you dont think its right. I guess blacks being a minority shouldnt have gotten rights either then.

"many of these tribes are quite intelligent and the only reason they dont create clothing is because they find it uneccessary because of the climate and thus dont create it"

Look around at some of these tribes, e.g. in Africa or Borneo or the Amazon basin and you will see that they have abandoned nudity in favour or western clothing!"

Many of those tribes had no choice in the matter and alot of them would shed their clothes first chance they got. Our society thinking its so advanced and so high and mightly thinks it can just go anywhere and impose its delusional textile commodities on anyone it wants and they just gotta suck it in and play along with it so the people moving into the area are not offended. I dont think thats right, if the tribes were there first, they oughta be able to keep their customs and our society needs to accept it or get the hell outta dodge. There are still many tribes, like in south america for example who still do embrace the nude lifestyle and they are quite intelligent.

"Many people think nudism is wrong, including you, otherwise you wouldnt be against your children learning about the lifestyle,

I haven't stopped my kids from learning about your lifestyles! Read what I said again. I have told them there are a few people who have an 'inclination' to take off all their clothes and hang about with others who have the same. They weren't shocked - they thought it was quite funny (and a bit rude!). But I wouldn't allow them to go to a naturist location whilst they were still children. Once they're over 18 (as my eldest daughter is now) then it's their decision."

You may not keep them from learning about it, but you discourage them and deny them the opportunity to try it out for themselves and do something that isnt harmful and that might benefit them. Why wouldnt you allow them to go to a nudist location? It might be beneficial for them and they might learn a thing or two, its actually helped some people like you when theyve gone there. I just dont think you oughta deny them the chance to at least try it out, you could even go there with them to ensure their saftey, not that there is anything to protect them from.

"Being nude isnt indecent, your actions while you are nude decide weither you are indecent or not

Being nude inappropriately is both indecent and offensive, regardless of your actions. So it's OK to be nude in the bath, or momentarily in your bedroom when getting changed, or even (if you're into it) on a naturist beach. But it's not generally OK in other public places or in private places if somebody might object."


Oh ok, so everything we do that people object to we need to stop then? Is that what im hearing from you? People object to it because they misunderstand it or simply dont want to and they impose their beleifs and phobias on others. Just because they dont like the sight of a nude person doesnt mean they should deny that nude person the priviledge to go nude. There is no reason to be offended by simple nudity and if the person is not causing harm *other than the nudity* then there is no reason to keep them clothed just to please themselves.

"Says who? Since when has this been a rule?"

This seems to be the universally accepted rule - well, accepted by all but a few naturists."

Its only "universely accepted" in stuck up textile cultures who do not understand the nudist lifestlye and try to deny people the right to simple nudity.

"Oh, I guess all those people who take their 9-10 yr old kids to the beach and let them run around topless and nude are crazy then?

9 or 10 year olds??? Sorry but that's not OK in my book. My kids NEVER played naked on a beach at any age. I've seen 3 and 4 year olds doing that and I prefer not to see it but at ages 9 or 10 I'd be making a complaint. I've never seen that - not even on a Danish beach!"

There are laws on the books and if not then there are codes at alot of beaches that allow children up to sometimes as old as 10 or 11 to be nude, usually this is around 7 but ive seen it happen as high as 10 and also this is true for many topless rules for girls as well, most girls can go to the beach topless until they are at puberty and sometimes even afterwards unless someone files a complaint. If the child is doing nothing wrong then there is no reason to complain about their nudity, they are kids, they oughta to be able to have fun and enjoy themselves while they have their youth and innocence because they'll never have it again after they get older. Our culture doesnt usually like this alot now so you probably wont see this alot on beaches but im just stating the fact that more likely than not its legal, people just chose not to do it, mostly on US beaches, its more common in Europe, maybe not where youre from though.


"..its normal for kids to be nude and they enjoy it and try to be nude as much as possible..

Says who? That's not my experience."

Thats because you brought up your kids a different way and have told them so many times that nudity is bad and wrong that they accept it so as to not get scolded by you. Little kids naturally enjoy being nude as much as they can, only when us adults come around and tell them its wrong and scold them for doing something natural that we gain these negative attitudes that we must hide our perfectly normal bodies from uncaring, uneducated individuals.

"and when you make them wear clothes and see that people are only nude while bathing and during sex then what do you think they will see nudity as?

They'll see nudity as a state you get into during bathing or showering or. When they reach the apprpriate age they will also know that there are some people who like to be nude whe they're having sexual intercourse. No problem."

Maybe in your family, but this is not true elsewhere and clothes compulsiveness can lead to several physical *anorexia* and mental disorders *depression, sexual desires, etc* and even though your ways of bringing up children might be effective, in most cases it isnt and being a nudist helps aleviate alot of the problems textile parents have from the get go because they target these problems and ensure they never rear their ugly little heads in the first place.

"..there is nothing wrong about being nude, there is alot of things wrong about eating food improperly.

What? Why can't people just eat in any way they find comfortable? Why should they use a knife and fork in a restaurant when they could use their fingers? Why can't they lick the plate clean or drink soup straight from the bow? That's not logical, is it? Well of course they can do these things if either they are alone, or they are with others who are happy for them to do it. Same with being nude."

I meant things like table manners, like not eating like a pig, not making gross sounds, etc. You can eat food however you want but I just meant things like stuff people find offensive. I mean there are clear reasons why these things are questionable but nudity really has no strong logical reasoning to indicate why it is wrong, besides the fact that people areint comfortable with it.

"Also people like you who deny their children the chance to see nudity in its purest form are doing more harm...

What harm? I've raised three perfectly normal, well-balanced kids. My eldest is now 19 years, she is a medical student and has had a steady boyfriend for nearly two years. My son is 16 years old, is hoping to be an English teacher and he has had the same girlfriend for 10 months. He plays rugby and showers with the rest of his team. Our youngest daughter is just eight years oold and has no idea what a naked man looks like. "

Okay, like I said, maybe your family is well brought up, but basically the normal ways textile parents bring up kids in this society, can be harmful, especially if the child has problems with themselves or has problems dealing with others and whenever they are nude they are treated like they are commiting some crime. I just think that nudists have a good and more wholesome ideal of how kids should be brought up and in most cases it works well and there are alot of good facts to back this up and since the US has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world, I wouldnt say that their textile methods are working very good, especially since almost none of the people in that category are nudists.

"I mean i think public nudity should be ok too but thatd be pushing it a bit now.

Yes that would be pushing it. It would cause offence and upset and would make people hostile towards naturists. Bear in mind that we are now in the midst of a worldwide paedophile witch-hunt. The profile of the typical paedophile is male and middle-aged - rather like the profile of the typical public nudity activist. The message is clear. Get naked in public and, if kids see you, you're at risk of getting labelled as an exhibitionist and possibly a paedophile. But that's for another thread."

Yes, but if someone is nude they cannot be responsible for the actions of others. Even if nudity bothers these people, that does not give the person a good enough reason to be hostile towards that person and if the nudist gets attacked then the police need to deal with the attacker not the nudist. Most people who are hostile towards nudists are misinformed and if they simply learned about the nudist lifestyle and understood that these people in fact are against such hateful actions such as sexual abuse then they wouldnt be so hostile to these people. Also do you honestly think that good honest naturists shoudl have to suffer and cover up just because there are pediphiles out there who terrorize children? Some pediphiles attack kids with their clothes on, so getting rid of nudist people is not the answer, imagine how if most people were nude, they wouldnt be able to rob a store or carry a gun because theyd have no place to conceal it and you could identify sexual offenders better by examining their features and not just the clothing they wear, which since people wear similar things, its hard to pin down who is the bad guy, whereas nude bodies are so unique that itd be easy to point out someone, especially if there was a detailed description of their body, its harder to change your body than the clothing you wear.

"Im just trying to say that there isnt anything bad about nudity and anyone who teaches their children that being nude, even in the saftey of their own home, is nuts.

I can assure you that I'm not nuts."

So why exactly dont you approve of nudity in the saftey of your own home then? Besides the fact that you are not comfortable with it. In fact, why wouldnt you be comfortable with your kids being nude and playing nude in your home? Wouldnt that be a much safer and logical place to do it than at some nudist beach or someplace where someone might not approve of it?

"Youre saying that you dont think its right for children to be nude in their own home? Who the hell made that rule up?

I never said that. I was talking about how WE brought OUR kids up. I wasn't making a moral judgement about those who are a tad more liberal than we are with regard to nudity."

Yes but you did make the statement that you obviously didnt think nudity is ok in your home so obviously you dont like nudity in the home and are against it, otherwise you wouldnt mind your kids being nude around your house. I just dont get whats so bad about kids being nude in their own home, its not like anything bad can come of it.

"I sure as hell know that being clothed 24/7 isnt universely accepted, maybeonly in your own warped world.

I hate to discourage you but I think you'll find that, for the vast majority of people, being clothed at least 23/7 is the general rule. This is the real world, not a warped one. You see, most peple are clothed nearly all he time - when they are at work, out shopping, in the pub, visiting friends and family, and even at home. When not wearing proper clothing, people tend to wear nightdresses or pyjamas in bed and bathrobes or dressing gowns when out of bed."

Im sure that is not true. Many people do in fact enjoy going to a nudist resort and many do go nude at home, to bed and when visiting family, those are by far the best, most fun and safe places to do it. Im sure many people wish they could go shopping nude, to the pub nude and other places, they dont simply because its illegal, not because they dont want to. Its silly to have a special garment to wear to bed or simply to cover yourself in your own home, thats expensive and just adds more unsightly clothing to your laundry which costs more money for soap and wastes more time and electrical power to do more loads of laundry.............need I go on? That notion is as silly as wearing a bathing suit to go swimming.

"Never to see naked people of the opposite sex of any age? WELL, I guess their spouses are outta luck then huh?

I was talking about kids, not grown-ups."

Thats not what you said. You said that your kids will never see anyone of the opposite sex ever. Im not disagreeing with what you meant but when you write things in the way that you did people might get the wrong idea. You simply said that theyd never see such things, you didnt mention anything about when they got older in that line of that sentence. Thats why us nudists dont take you seriously because you cant even keep your facts straight or say exactly what you mean, people can take sometihng simple like that the wrong way unless you elaborate so we know what you really mean. There are loopholes in textile thinking, nudist thinking usually has less loopholes and makes more sense if you really take the time to think about it.

"..you just state what you beleive in and what you THINK society beleives in as a whole without anything to back you up.

I accept that my family isn't especially typical. But, as textiles, we're a heck of a lot more typical than most people here when it comes to nudity."

Im sure many people even if they areint nudists support simple nudity, especially in your own home or private areas alot more than you do, they just dont openly admit it in public for fear of ridicule or hatred.

"...theyre already gonna be pregnant and have stds and be in macho trouble, so I mean unless you want this to happen and dont think it cant, you really oughta talk with em asap.

You're a bit late as far as two of my three kids are concerned. They grew up just fine. The youngest looks set to follow them."

Oh ok, maybe I was mistaken but I just have seen people with your attitude, maybe not your style of raising children but your attitude, end up with children with the aboved mentioned problems so I just thought id give ya some friendly advice because thats what nudists do. You just seem like youre against nudism or against nudity in general and I just think that if you pass that onto children that you can cause them to not understand nudity and sex and have problems later in life. There is a huge problem with sex in this country, its obvious that you may be an exception to this rule but overall, the textile lifestlye has made our sex crazed culture what it is today.

[Rex]

Hi MikeJB
Just a follow-up to the comments about primitive [primitive by the standards of whom?] tribes adopting "Western style" dress.
As you said, many of them were forced to. You don't like the concept of being forced to change your beliefs, do you Stu?
A while ago, I saw an excellent TV documentary series, narrated by Kevin Costner, about the original American native peoples and how they were terribly mistreated in various ways by the newcomers.
Many of them were comfortably nude, climate permitting.
A TV doco on English Christian missionaries in Africa was also an eye-opener. The missionaries had a very good reason for converting the happily nude natives into wearing clothes. They were acting as agents for the English textile industry!
Ah, but these people were ignorant pagan savages, weren't they? They went around torturing and killing people. But isn't that what many modern societies do, particularly some of those with the most restrictive ideas on suitable dress standards.
When the first settlers came to Australia, the Aboriginals were generally nude. Although, as was the case with America and other places, some of the newcomers wanted to be fair with the original people, the net result was brutalisation, dislocation, deprival of liberty and in some cases, genocide. Ah, but we got them wearing clothes, so it wasn't all bad, was it?
These early peoples were forced to change their dress attitudes at the point of a gun.
Their descendants, in many cases, are kept in line by brain-wash and laws made by the descendants of the invaders and conquerors.
Many people resent any attempt by minority groups to "force" them to do anything, even when the minority group just wants equality under the law, but they don't mind force being applied to keep the minority groups "in their place". Isn't that what is happening when people complain about harmless nudity in relatively quiet places which are known for that activity, when someone demands that the authorities "do something about it".
If the authorities respond to these unjust and unnecessary demands, as they often do, then the harmless nudists, just like many early native peoples, are forced to change, metaphorically at the point of a gun.

[florida-david]

soofreeemateomanian - once again, bravo, for the one young nudist fighting through the LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONG posts to come up with a QUICK reason why nudity is acceptable. stu will not change!!! he has other issues that frame his beliefs like they are. he is stubborn and unwilling to change. why waste your breath (sorry, fingers) arguing when it will not change his opinion.

soofreeemateomanian- one comment, everyone does have a different level of maturity and hormonal tendancies, so some kids might be more interested in sex than another, wether they are both clothed or both textile. but in general, i KNOW that had i seen more innocent nudity and less media based nudity (rape, quick sex, perversion, etc), i would have been a more balanced youth and twenty-something year old. if stu wants to let the public schools and the media teach their vision of nudity to his kids, well that is his (and his kids) loss. if he wants to hide behind his clothes even during sex, once again, his loss. since his clothes will be in the way, he will never feel a proper massage, the wind blowing against the fine hair on his body, the joy of the sun on his naked body. his loss, not mine. i have this feeling stu is a very practical individual, not really sensual, and his friends in other countries are similar, hence they will of course share similar beliefs.

as for tribes all wearing western clothes in-the-media (again, not in the real world, only as portayed for our puritanical eyes through the media) - WAKE UP do you really think these people run around all day in western clothes?? do they have a closet in their mansion in the middle of the woods of africa?? no, they might wear clothes sometimes, especially for closed-minded camera crews, but they are probably naked the other 99% of the time. and those people visitng them with guns, where not only forcing their clothes on the "heathens", but also their diseases, penis' (rape), and religion. that should convince those 'backwards' people to evolve into our society????

OY /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

thanks again soofreeemateomanian, i enjoyed the poems....

[nudecase]

EVIL! how could you have a poetry writing without me! Oh well. Stu, shut up. you are so stubborn that you cant even have sex without clothes on, you should be made to live in a nudist colony, a sentance most of us would gladly accept and prosper in! But you will never do this one little thing for us naturists out there, shut up! you are totally against naturism yet you come to a place full of naked people to complain! for one thing that is stupid in itself, and for another, if you are trying to "understand" us, then listen!
The headcase with a naked problem,
-nudecase

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nudecase:
EVIL! how could you have a poetry writing without me! Oh well. Stu, shut up. you are so stubborn that you cant even have sex without clothes on, you should be made to live in a nudist colony, a sentance most of us would gladly accept and prosper in! But you will never do this one little thing for us naturists out there, shut up! you are totally against naturism yet you come to a place full of naked people to complain! for one thing that is stupid in itself, and for another, if you are trying to "understand" us, then listen!
The headcase with a naked problem,
-nudecase <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jon-Marc,
I admire your valueing and upholding kindness and decency as seen in the follwing excerpts of your recent post;
<hr width= "40%">
QUOTE,
Mateo, Disagreeing with Stu and debating with him is perfectly OK. While I don't agree with most of what he says, I don't think calling him "arrogant and stubborn" is called for--particularly since we are ALL at least stubborn about what we believe--I know I am.

We have two sides of an issue here--ours and his. Yes, he seems to want to delude himself into believing that ALL non-nudists look at nudity the same as he does, which is not true. Still, there's no excuse for calling hin names.
Stu is always polite and has never to my knowledge called anyone a derogatory name. We should show him the same respect even though we don't respect the way he believes....


Let's try to be more polite with one another. Disagree if you want, but let's be civil about it.

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Would you say the same if the parents wanted to pass on their hatred of blacks, gays, Jews, Arabs or their rejection of people with physical disabilities?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well... I for one would argue this is something they ought not to do but would not try to establish a law that prohibited them from doing so.

From the POV of the textile impaired, you're the one who is trying to "pass on" a negative belief system. The may consider nudism to be as repugnant as racism. A racist may consider racism correct and nudism immoral. Unless you start whacking people in the head or stealing their money, (which is already illegal) or discriminating in commerce (also illegal) there is no objective way to say one lifestyle is "good" and the other one is "bad". Remember that the ACLU fought for and preserved the rights of Nazis to march through Skokie (a heavily Jewish community). The reason the did this is because if Nazis lose their rights, then nobody has rights.

Once you start trying to control what lifestyle choices you can advocate and teach your children, then there is no limit to the mischief that can be done.

[MikeJB]

Yes I really dont think Stu will EVER like or even accept nudism. I mean we have given him very honest and very logical reasoning as to why nudism is good and effective and its obvious that either he doesnt want to accept that fact or he just wants to cause trouble here. I mean why would some textile fanatic be here if he didnt have any interest in nudism other than to bug us and ruin our lifestyle with his immature and oftentimes illogical reasoning as to why people should and do wear clothing. I mean you just read one of his sentences and can find at least 2-3 loopholes in each of his statements, its absurd. I really think that if he wants us to take him seriously he better come up with some really good excuse as to why we should have to abandon our nudist ways for his textile lifestyle because I just dont see any good logical or moral reason to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
I really think that if he wants us to take him seriously he better come up with some really good excuse as to why we should have to abandon our nudist ways for his textile lifestyle because I just dont see any good logical or moral reason to do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is absolutely no way Stu or anyone else can do that because there is NO good reason to wear clothes when they aren't needed for protection from the weather.

[aunaturelone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote