Why I AM WHAT I AM! [Archive] - ClothesFree Forum

R.M. Greenman

08-27-2003, 10:58 PM

I am Pagan! I easily could have been an atheist.(HI PROMETHEUS) But many a times I have seen, in nature, what seems to be something planned. It went beyond a protective camoflage(sp?) of a common moth, but the beautiful feathers of a South Asian pheasent. I forget the breed but I could not see the reason they were there. It seemed to be more than just attracting a mate. Besides, aren't birds color blind?
I was raised primarily Christian. I went to a Methodist church and sunday school.(HI NUDIST IN TN) I learned that God/Jesus was love. Basically all the positives. I learned that God/Jesus was everwhere and everything. They knew all, loved all, incapable of hate.
The Reverend was to me a good man. Never had a problem answering the silliest questions a child could ask about God. Christianity was all fine and dandy until "THEY" came.
As a teenager I was quite content with my religion. But that is when I came across "THEM"!
The born agains! They told me that I was doomed to Hell unless I was "BORN AGAIN"! Wait! I'm a good person! I sin! I ask for forgiveness and fight against temptation!
"But, have you been born again?"
"What for?"
"Because you are born of original sin and are condemned to Hell unless you are born again!"
"So if a baby is born and dies of complications it is going to hell?"
"Yes!"
"What?!?"
" To enter the kingdom of God, you must accept Christ as your personal savior, the person you are will die and you will be born again to serve God......"
Well you all get the point! They went on to tell me that if a child was born into a Buddist family, grew up buddist, entered a Buddist Monastery and lived out his life, never actully hearing the word of Christ is going straight to hell. The Jews, because they don't accept Christ as the true Messiah, same thing.
This alone did not turn me away from Christianity. As a matter of fact, I still hold on to the values I learned from my youth.
I did though come to the conclusion that something was amiss. If God was know all/ see all, why didn't he see Eve eat the fruit? Why didn't he know that mankind would become corupt? Why did he ask Caine where he was? Why did he flood the world to rid it of wickedness and then feel bad about it? WHY did he answer a question with a question? "Where were thou when....." But wait....God cannot and has not been heard by anyone(John 5:37) except that He speaks to Moses (Exodus 33:11).
I am not going to say Jesus never exsisted, but I will say I believe alot of what was said has been corrupted through thousands of years of writing and rewriting, translations and the simple fact that much of the populas in the last nearly 2000yrs have been illiterate and read to by those who were educated and sought to control the population by fear of God.
I'll stop here for the moment otherwise I'll go on forever and I need to work in the morning. I do welcome a debate on this as I'm sure some will, and I'll leave you with this thought...If God is omnipotent, why do I need a book or a preacher to tell me what I need to know?

R.M. Greenman

08-27-2003, 10:58 PM

08-28-2003, 08:47 AM

Great beginning!

Please post more when you get in from work. I'd love to take this deeper.

Tenchi

08-28-2003, 01:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
I am Pagan! I easily could have been an atheist.(HI PROMETHEUS) But many a times I have seen, in nature, what seems to be something planned. It went beyond a protective camoflage(sp?) of a common moth, but the beautiful feathers of a South Asian pheasent. I forget the breed but I could not see the reason they were there. It seemed to be more than just attracting a mate. Besides, aren't birds color blind?
I was raised primarily Christian. I went to a Methodist church and sunday school.(HI NUDIST IN TN) I learned that God/Jesus was love. Basically all the positives. I learned that God/Jesus was everwhere and everything. They knew all, loved all, incapable of hate.
The Reverend was to me a good man. Never had a problem answering the silliest questions a child could ask about God. Christianity was all fine and dandy until "THEY" came.
As a teenager I was quite content with my religion. But that is when I came across "THEM"!
The born agains! They told me that I was doomed to Hell unless I was "BORN AGAIN"! Wait! I'm a good person! I sin! I ask for forgiveness and fight against temptation!
"But, have you been born again?"
"What for?"
"Because you are born of original sin and are condemned to Hell unless you are born again!"
"So if a baby is born and dies of complications it is going to hell?"
"Yes!"
"What?!?"
" To enter the kingdom of God, you must accept Christ as your personal savior, the person you are will die and you will be born again to serve God......"
Well you all get the point! They went on to tell me that if a child was born into a Buddist family, grew up buddist, entered a Buddist Monastery and lived out his life, never actully hearing the word of Christ is going straight to hell. The Jews, because they don't accept Christ as the true Messiah, same thing.
This alone did not turn me away from Christianity. As a matter of fact, I still hold on to the values I learned from my youth.
I did though come to the conclusion that something was amiss. If God was know all/ see all, why didn't he see Eve eat the fruit? Why didn't he know that mankind would become corupt? Why did he ask Caine where he was? Why did he flood the world to rid it of wickedness and then feel bad about it? WHY did he answer a question with a question? "Where were thou when....." But wait....God cannot and has not been heard by anyone(John 5:37) except that He speaks to Moses (Exodus 33:11).
I am not going to say Jesus never exsisted, but I will say I believe alot of what was said has been corrupted through thousands of years of writing and rewriting, translations and the simple fact that much of the populas in the last nearly 2000yrs have been illiterate and read to by those who were educated and sought to control the population by fear of God.
I'll stop here for the moment otherwise I'll go on forever and I need to work in the morning. I do welcome a debate on this as I'm sure some will, and I'll leave you with this thought...If God is omnipotent, why do I need a book or a preacher to tell me what I need to know? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>R.M. Greenman, I do not know how tom reply to all of your posts, nor do I know how to answer your Bible questions, however I will speak from my heart. Not all Christians believe children that die are going to hell. My roommate who is non-denominatiol Christian doesn't believe that, my Catholic teacher doesn't believe that, and I certainly don't believe that. In fact I believe that Jesus loves the little children and because of this, all little children go to Heaven. After all it was the Savior in the Bible that said 'in order to make it into Heaven, one must be like a little child.' As you can plainly see not all Christians believe that children that are not baptised go to hell. In fact the majority that i have met, even believe unbaptised children don't go to hell.

Jochanaan

08-28-2003, 02:31 PM

I too am saddened, Mr Greenman, by the uncharitable assumptions of the "born-agains" that you met and were forced to interact with. It is true that Jesus speaks of being born again; but I firmly believe that any who truly believe in Jesus and try to follow His example are born again. The God I know and love is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Whether we agree with the born-agains' language is merely a matter of semantics.

R.M. Greenman

08-28-2003, 02:52 PM

Jochanaan, I am glad that you didn't jump on me about this post that I'm writing. Everything I have and will post on this thread are just things that have turned myself and others I know away from the church. Born agains are a small part but they were the first to scare me away from Christianity. I'll have more to come and questions that hopefully you can answer.

I have an Uncle who is a die hard Babtist, and he even rolls his eyes when "Born agains" are mentioned.

Believe me when I say that I am not anti-christian. Just a little flustered about one sect bashing the other.

Falcon46

08-28-2003, 02:53 PM

Interesting post R.M.

In fact, while I tend to agree with you on most points... it raised many more questions of my own! In regard to the retorical questions, I think it's safe to say you'll get as many different answers as there are denominations. The very fact that there ARE so many denominations leads to the obvious question: Which one represents the truth? Some tend to have similar foundations as the one closest to it, but NONE of them agree 100%, and some of the biggest are at such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I agree that the years have played havoc with the truth, and mostly to justify some person/group with the power of persuasion that they can get away with this or that, or just simply that they feel others should believe as they do, or else. And people being so gullible, so in need of something, latch onto it.

There was a post made here about a month ago by someone else (since deleted I think), that made the statement something like, "Thank God mankind will destroy itself over religion". This may not be an exact quote, but it's close and struck me very profoundly. I'm not about to attempt to go into all the connotations it brought about, but it did help me to see more clearly the shear stupidity of condemning others solely on their religious beliefs and living their lives accordingly. No one on this earth has that authority.

R.M. Greenman

08-28-2003, 03:01 PM

Falcon46, I hope no one thinks I am condeming any one. I'm giving an inside on my point of view as to why.

florida-david

08-28-2003, 05:46 PM

well since i and other jews do not believe in hell, i will not be going there for not believing the born-agains or those who hold similar beliefs. why is it that some religions assume that they have found "THE ANSWER" and that everyone should agree with them or go to a place that is not to nice upon death (anyone remember Dante's inferno)? a non-believer has to first believe the born agains are right to believe that your life will turn out as they predicted. i had this discussion with a good friend many years ago and we agreed to not discuss it anymore as neither could prove they were correct (but i was sure he was not going to hell as i did not believe in hell). if anyone is dead and can tell us the truth (since they are dead and know), please speak up, i think we could all use to be enlightened....

R.M. Greenman

08-28-2003, 06:04 PM

O.K. Tenchi has written in her post topic that Jesus loves me and I am sure he does. My problem is not with him but with those who say they speak for him. Christians are incapable of coming together and becoming one denomination. Why in N.Ireland are the Catholics so hateful of the Protestants that they are willing to kill them, and vice versa?
Pagans are a diverse group also. But we do not shun eachother nor are we making war with eachother. I myself do not agree with many Dianics. But I will have dinner with them. I like pagan hollidays such as Sam Hain (pronounced sow-wen) Beltane,Lammas,and Imbolic. Others like the Solstices and equnoxs' and moon phases. I still love them.
Christians sometimes remind me of an old Emo skit,"I'm a Baptist!"
"So am I! Are you a liberal Baptist or a conservative?"
"Conservative!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Babtist or a Southern Conservative Baptist?"
"Northern!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake region or a Northern Conservative Baptist Mid West region?"
"Salt Lake!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake Region council of 1889 or a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake Region council of 1927?"
"Council of 1927!"
"DIE HERITIC!!!!"
I'll be back later. Something more important just came up. My children!

Falcon46

08-28-2003, 08:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
Falcon46, I hope no one thinks I am condeming any one. I'm giving an inside on my point of view as to why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>R.M.
I wasn't implying you were. I personally think you presented yourself very well.

R.M. Greenman

08-28-2003, 09:28 PM

So far I have only gotten positive responses to this post. I felt there were alot of open minded people on this site and any Christian that enjoys the nudist lifestyle are great!

I took some time to read through some more posts, old and new. Jon-Mark had posted that he had left the forum because he was tired of being attacked for his beliefs. That was sad to hear. Jon-Marc this is just me ranting about why I became pagan.

Cyndiann and vic,(and anyone else who could be interested) There is a book called,"Pagans & Christians: The personal spiritual experience" by Gus DiZerega, PH.D. It's a good read!

I have another question I would liked answered by the Christians,Do you love your God because he is your creator, or do you love him so you won't go to hell? Honestly.
The message I get a lot from some Evangelists is,"LOVE ME! ACCEPT ME! NO ONE BUT ME OR SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL!" Evangelists are another group that give Christians a bad name. Jimmy Sweggart, Jim Baker(?) Oral Roberts (I wonder what would have happened if he didn't get that money.) Pat Robertson.
Another one that is entertaining to watch,Jack Van Impe.
Back to the message...I liked the message I learned in Sunday School, "Love each other. Be a good person.Pray to me and talk to me when you are feeling down. Believe that I love you."
Somewhere that idea was lost by Churchs' trying to scare you into attending and giving them 10% of your income. When did the cross get replaced by the dollar sign? Do they really want to save your soul or get more money?
Why do Catholics bow to engraven images i.e. statues of the Virgin Mary,ST.Peter, and so forth. Isn't that breaking a ten commandment? Or two. Why does the Pope and his Bishops wear expensive robes, carry gold crosses, and hole up wealth within the Vatican? Isn't that Vanity and Greed?

I once had a guy tell me that nothing good can come from man. Man corupts all he touches. It says so in the Bible.
Hmmmm. The Bible. A book created by man, writen by man, translated by man, published by man, distributed by man, sold by man, owned by man.

Bibles errors in science:
Bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13,19)
Birds have four legs (Leviticus 11:20-23)
Pi=3 (1 Kings 7:23)

Contradictions:
God cannot be seen(John 1:18; Exodus 33:20) God has been seen (Genesis 18; Exodus 24;9-11, 33:11, 32:30, Isaiah 6:1)
God repents (gen.6:6-7) but he doesn't (Numbers 23:19)
There are more I can list.

Jesus has two genealogies: Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:23. One lists 27 ancestors,plus Jesus, the
other lists 43.
If Jesus was born of a virgin, why is his geneology traced through Joseph in both cases?
I have more bible contradictions and falacies if any one really wants to hear them.

08-28-2003, 09:47 PM

"I took some time to read through some more posts, old and new. Jon-Mark had posted that he had left the forum because he was tired of being attacked for his beliefs. That was sad to hear. Jon-Marc this is just me ranting about why I became pagan.

If you will notice, a few christians say they are attacked when you debate their posts on here in any way. I've noted that a few times.

From what I remember there was a thread going on about religion similar to this one that JM wasn't even posting in till he jumped in to say he was attacked and was leaving.

When beliefs cause hate and cause people to be shunned and disliked that is wrong. To say a belief is written in stone and is the only interpretation possible when it hurts people confuses even those who say it. A belief is an interpretation of the bible and is not based in fact whatsoever. I shared with JM that there were many christians that don't have a problem with gays and others that he said his religion doesn't allow him to accept. There is no "one true word" and interpretations are not facts. It is up to him to allow himself to accept gays and not the responsibility of any religion.

Prejudice is never right even when (and especially when) using the bible to reinforce those beliefs.

sojourner

08-28-2003, 09:59 PM

Hi R.M.,

You do raise some very good points, and like others said, it is very unfortunate you were "bashed" by some who probably thought they were well intentioned but tried to deliver a message of love with a sence of bitterness and disdain. I've had it happen to me as well, even as a Christian, and i don't like it.

I remember reading a cartoon many years ago. The first caption read: 2000 years ago God's son became man. The second caption: and during his life he preached a message of love; the third caption read: and from this has sprung over 200 churches; and the last caption: All of whom hate each other.

Doesn't it seem like that's the truth. That;s why we have troubles in Ireland and elsewhere. Men use religion to promote their own agendas and hatred.

From a Christian perspective, not other denominations or beliefs, but commonly from the Christian perspective we are taught there is the Church, the Bride of Christ - who are the collective believers. Because man is arrogant, egotistical, and proud, over the years he has said his church is the right one, teh true church, and yyou better belive his way, and man, not God, has added to God's word in trying to persuade others. I don't expect non Christians to believe this, I only add it as my perspective.

As you ask the questions you do, try asking God to answer them. The reason I am a Christian is because I have a relationship with God through His Holy Spirit. I am in no way "religious", but have found that when I seek Him, He is there to answer me, and not just through His written word.

The inconsistencies you mention in the Bible do have answers to them, to explain why they are not inconsistent. PM me some time if you're interested and I'll try to explain the ones I know. Good luck with your seeking of answers to some difficult questions. I wish you well in finding the truth.

Soj
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

R.M. Greenman

08-28-2003, 10:21 PM

The main point is that God/Goddess can tell me anything he/she wants and I will know it to be true deep within me. I won't need another human to tell me what the Goddess/God wants of me. I feel good surrounded by Pagans. They don't judge me and they are my family.

If anyone has had the chance to walk deep into the woods, sit down on a log and start feeling as one with nature, you may have felt the power of the Greenman. When you become one with nature, and a squirrel sits upon your knee,deer graze in front of you as if you were always there, you'll know. My path is found.

"The earth is our Mother, she taught us to embrace the light.
"Now the lord is master, she suffers an eternal night."

Jochanaan

08-29-2003, 04:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
I have another question I would liked answered by the Christians,Do you love your God because he is your creator, or do you love him so you won't go to hell? Honestly.

I love Him because He has saved me from hell through His Son's death--and because He loves me and helps me get through life daily--and for innumerable other reasons.

The message I get a lot from some Evangelists is,"LOVE ME! ACCEPT ME! NO ONE BUT ME OR SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL!" Evangelists are another group that give Christians a bad name. Jimmy Sweggart, Jim Baker(?) Oral Roberts (I wonder what would have happened if he didn't get that money.) Pat Robertson.
Another one that is entertaining to watch,Jack Van Impe.

A lot of Christians are very unhappy with Swaggart, Bakker, Oral, and even Robertson. The one big name that has every Christian's respect is Billy Graham.

Why do Catholics bow to engraven images i.e. statues of the Virgin Mary,ST.Peter, and so forth. Isn't that breaking a ten commandment? Or two. Why does the Pope and his Bishops wear expensive robes, carry gold crosses, and hole up wealth within the Vatican? Isn't that Vanity and Greed?

Don't ask me; I'm not a Catholic! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The points you raise have been discussed by Christians ever since the Bible was written and assembled. Most of my friends and I honestly admit they don't have all the answers. One problem, however, is that we have lost many of the cultural associations that the Old Testament writers took for granted, so some points that seem obscure to us would have been easily understood in Biblical times.

I hope this helps!

Jochanaan

08-29-2003, 04:59 PM

It is truly unfortunate that Christianity has become so divided. That was not Jesus' intent when He founded His church.

Like many contemporary Christians, I have reached out to those of different denominations and found brothers and sisters who, although we disagree on various doctrines, share a love toward God and commitment to living His example. "Charity shall cover the multitude of sins." (I Peter 4:8)

R.M. Greenman

08-29-2003, 07:10 PM

Jochanaan, I like the answer you gave about why you love God.At some point I will PM you about another question I know you can give a good answer to. I have a good deal of respect for Billy Graham. He came to denver, you'll might remeber for a three day sermon and didn't charge a dime. Plus I liked some of the answers he gave to certain questions.
If more were like him it would be a better world.

I was talking to friend the other night and he told me I was a Pagochristian. I kinda like that term. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fresh Air

08-30-2003, 02:43 PM

Why do we need books and preachers? From one perspective we don't. It all depends on our view of God though. Which is a varied as anything and no one can know for certain who is right.

But, my views are these. Books and preachers are not needed to have a "relationship" with God. There is often more to a relationship though. It is almost something that we should eventually want. Just like dating a significant other. At first you spend only a little time together, getting to know each other. But if things bide correctly, you end up wanting to know the person more and eventually end up desiring to share you whole life with them.

I think preachers and books are not fully 100% accurate, but nothing on earth is. In some indirect way they are sent by God for us. When we reach a point where we want to know more about him and grow closer to Him, it is only natural to seek Him in His people and His word.

Hope my personal views on it helped.

Fresh Air

Tenchi

08-30-2003, 05:01 PM

I just want to clear something up. In one of your posts R.M. Greenman, you called me a she. I am not a she, I am a he. I am a man, not a woman. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

08-30-2003, 05:22 PM

Fresh Air...Very good summary of growth in faith /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Outdoorbare

R.M. Greenman

08-30-2003, 05:22 PM

Sorry, I didn't read your profile before I posted that. Some of these online names can fool ya. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Frank R

08-31-2003, 06:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
[QB] ... Christians are incapable of coming together and becoming one denomination. Why in N.Ireland are the Catholics so hateful of the Protestants that they are willing to kill them, and vice versa?

While I must agree a lot of wars and killing have been done in the name of religion, there are a lot of other factors for the killings in Ireland. When Great Britain was in the middle of their civil wars, the Irish tended to support the Crown (James) and I think we all know the supporters of Parliament won. Due to a vast amount of killing of woman and children (by both sides), there is still a lot of hated. Many other factors, wealth, social status, land, etc. played a role in this long standing battle. As a non-Catholic Christian, I know I would never want to live under a Catholic government. (I really wouldn't want to live under a Protestant government either but that is another matter) Remember, it was the Jesuits who came up with the saying "The end justifies the means" for starting the Spanish Inquisition.

Tenchi

08-31-2003, 09:46 PM

In all honesty I think politics causes more problems than religon. If you really think about it a lot of the leaders that have said they kill for religion, really weren't religous at all, but were instead using religion as an excuse for their own political gain.

R.M. Greenman

09-01-2003, 07:56 AM

Jon-Marc,
People have killed in the name of God calling it Gods work.(Crusades,Spainish Inqusition,ect) But any true person of God knows it against his law.
Thou shalt not kill(murder)
That law should be point blank. It really does not leave room for "except when...."

I don't think the entire bible is a book of myths, I just believe that there has been a couple thousand years of tinkering. Why is there a King James VERSION.

Most people know it is not a good idea to curse. When someone takes the Lords name in vain, they aren't thinking because of anger or just don't care. To take another dietys' name in vain would require thought, and if one takes the time to think, they are less likely to curse.

I could imagine someone actually saying,"Zues darnit."

Outlaw

09-01-2003, 10:30 AM

Hi everyone-

Here's a little something to mull over. found it on the internet a while back.

*For those of you that are not following the recent controversy that has to do with Laura Schlessinger: she is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Paramount Television Group is currently producing a "Dr. Laura" television show. Recently she has become a convert to Judaism, and now she is Ba'al T'shuvah. Recently, she has made some statements about homosexuals that has caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her....The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet....ENJOY.

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. (cotton/polyester blend) He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Big Mac
----------------------------

Everything you think you know is only what you believe.

09-01-2003, 11:14 AM

"I've noticed that many people who say the Bible isn't true and is just a book of myths then contradict themselves by complaining about the wars fought in the Bible times in His name. If the Bible is just "myths" to them, why would they take these writings seriously? It seems that people who "don't believe the Bible" suddenly believe it's true when they want to complain about it?"

Actually most of those that mention wars fought for religious reasons don't even use wars mentioned in the bible that I've seen. I know I don't. And since wars fought for religious reasons aren't all christian based that would be especially true.

The most commonly used examples I see are the Crusades, the Irish Catholics and Protestants, the Muslims in the 9-11 incident. Are they in the bible?

Many wars are fought on a smaller and more personal level like what is going on right now with the controversy over having gay ministers.

One more point is that I doubt anyone thinks the bible is totally fiction. The original statement is flawed in that it doesn't really reflect current opinion on the bible by dissenters at all. Why do christians take a statement and twist it to better make their point (or to make a point that didn't really exist to begin with?)? Most people just think that the words written originally were not kept pure and with some books being deleted and others later added that it can't possibly be the exact words of their deity. It doesn't mean that any or all historical events are entirely fabricated. It does mean that personal interpretations of a collection of books should not be used as factual evidence of anything at all.

In this case and because of what I just stated jm's statement isn't even valid.

09-01-2003, 11:17 AM

Thanks Big Mac for posting that here. It points out just a few of the more insane points of view found in the bible in a humorous way. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Boreas

09-01-2003, 12:01 PM

This is an interesting thread. I'd like to add my two cents about the Bible's "infallibilty". As the Christian church was being developed I believe there were many choices about which books to include in the Bible. The Gnostic texts were left out for many reasons...and I am not a Bible scholar so can't go into that. Anyway, the church ultimately is largely man-made (and I do mean men created it) and was politically motivated. There are some good and somewhat controversial books written on the subject by people like Karen Armstrong and John Shelby Spong.

I guess this makes me wonder what Jesus would say about how things are going now. Also, what about the similarities among world religions .... bottom line is that we are supposed to learn to love each other aren't we?

Outlaw

09-01-2003, 12:56 PM

Big Mac here-

I just want to point one thing about the history of the Christian Church. Jesus was born a Jew, Lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. He did NOT start any new religion.

-----------------------

If God created me in His image, God must be a nudist.

Trailscout

09-01-2003, 01:08 PM

That humorous post to Dr. Laura clearly illustrates that most of the Torah, (the first five books of the Bible) consist of legal statues, and religious ceremonial law that applies to a specific nation at a specific point in their history.

That does not mean that one cannot find the underlying moral principles behind these expired legal statutes. The principles of good living are eternal.

Many people who visit this forum have Jewish or Christian heritage, reverence the underlying message of the Bible and yet they have enough common sense to see that the Bible nowhere teaches that nudity is not in itself immoral, nor does seeing nudity cause immoral thoughts or behavior unless one's heart is already darkened by sin. In fact, even those with a conservative somewhat literal view of scripture have come to realize that there is great good in returning to the nudity for which we were designed, whenever possible.

David77

09-01-2003, 02:44 PM

A gospel is a report of what Jesus said and did. In the New Testament, there are four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In reality there are many more ancient gospels available, including the gospel of Thomas, gospel of Mary, the "Q" gospel, about 20 gospels in all.

Many people think that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John reported on what they witnesses, but they did not live during the time of Jesus. Most schlors believe that Matthew and Luke copied much of their work from that of Mark's writings.

John's writings are different and more mystical and are about other aspects.

All the writings of the gospels relied greatly upon oral traditions, (not print traditions). Oral tradition passed down over more than one hundred and fifty years, is hearsay evidence, second-hand evidence from a rather primitive peoples.

The oldest copies of manuscripts of gospels are from around 200 AD, except for some very small manuscript fragments from around 125 AD that are too small to contain much to read. These manuscripts from around 200 AD are not original manuscripts, but they are many ancient copies in a different language from the original, and by different scribes whose copies differ from one another, to a degree.

The letters in the Bible are older than the gospels, but the writers had never met Jesus in person.

In 393 AD a church council chose (by vote) the 27 books which they thought should be considered the holy books of the New Testament.

Starting in 1985, a group of possibly 160 Bible scholors, known as the "Jesus Seminar", has met twice a year for over ten years, in an attempt to sort out the authentic writings about Jesus from what has been added by mistake.

When they came to a consensus, (by vote) they published, in 1993, the book entitled "THE FIVE GOSPELS, What Did Jesus Really Say" and explained their joint quest as a group, explaining rules of written evidence, and giving all kinds of interesting information regarding the manuscripts, and of Jesus as a person, historically (but not Jesus as a mystical Messiah).

Jesus Seminar Description
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Jesus_Seminar/jesus_seminar.html

09-01-2003, 05:00 PM

David that was really informative. Thanks for posting it.

I think that if more people were aware of the history behind it, especially those who want to take it all very literally, it would bring things into better prospective.

09-01-2003, 05:35 PM

Gee, I stand in awe of such knowledgeable people who can so easily explain away God, His word, faith that millions have in Him, and the eternal peace that I have within me because of His love.

What chance does an uneducated fool like me have before such all-knowing ones as yourselves. I bow and give way to your superior intellect. I must rethink my beliefs and doubt my belief in God--NOT!

Boreas

09-01-2003, 05:50 PM

Hi Jon-Marc, I for one have stronger belief in God now that I have talked about God with others and have been allowed my questions. I certainly have had some crises of faith and really wondered about it all. That is probably what set me off reading as well. Now, I do realize that there is a common theme. I would prefer to consider what Jesus said, rather than what the Church says he said. From what I can see, Buddha, Mohammed and others had the same basic message. That just confirms for me that God sent us some messengers and does in fact exist.

I think that Jesus had such a profound message that the people who tried to write it down, or record it in other ways, maybe couldn't understand it, or whatever. It was something like 50 years before it got written down. Lots of room for interpretation. And besides, look at what we have done to other messengers like Gandhi or Martin Luther-King. A "love others and live in peace" message doesn't always seem to be what people want to hear. I like to see the Bible, and other things as God's footprints...evidence that s/he exists. I can't limit God to male or female either.

David77

09-01-2003, 08:08 PM

I see Jesus as one of the teachers with some very good ideas on living life well, in community. He was a devout Jew hopeing to add some reform to his cherished religion, with no intention of starting a new church/religion, nor ever considering himself "The Messiah".

Jesus teaching are summed up by my bible scholar friend thus;
1) The times are critical for humanity. Follow me in first seeking the Kingdom of love on the path of justice. The rest will follow.
2) Sow the good word of love for all, wherever you go, and have faith that it will grow.
3) Let your love be inclusive, like the sun shining on good and bad, like rain falling on just and unjust. Eat with anybody.
4) Treat others with the respect with which you would wish them to treat you.
5) Seek the good of your adversary.
6) Don't set yourself up as judge of others; be prepared to forgive time without number.
7) Befriend the alienated, the troubled, and the needy. Human service is what the Kingdom's service is all about.
8) All persons who seek the good of the human family is an equal partner in the Kingdom of love.
9) Religion exists to serve humanity, not the other way around. The clean heart and eye and the plain word have priority, not correct creed or ritual.
10) Be a contributing citizen of both the Kingdom of law and the Kingdom of love. But love is your one master.
11) Be aware and alert, trusting as the lilly, gentle as the dove, streetsmart as the snake.

R.M. Greenman

09-01-2003, 09:00 PM

If it were up to the God people, the Earth would still be flat!

The sun would rotate around us along with the rest of the Universe.

Dieases would not be cured!

And those of us who thought outside the box would be stoned to death. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I guess Cyndiann was correct!

GO AWAY

09-01-2003, 11:07 PM

Did God create Evil? At a certain college, there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian then proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of faith. One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand when asked if anyone was a Christian. The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young man?" He replied, "Yes sir He did!" The professor responded, "If God made everything, then He made evil." The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to have once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth. Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?" "Yes, you may," responded the professor. The young man stood up and said, "Sir, is there such a thing as cold?" "Of course there is, what kind of question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?" The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there." The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?" Once again, the professor responded "Of course there is." And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such thing as evil?" The professor responded, "Of course. We have rapes, and murders and violence everywhere in the world, those things are evil." The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God. Evil is a term man developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light." The professor had nothing to say............

GO AWAY

09-01-2003, 11:08 PM

NO WONDER THERE IS SOOO MUCH EVIL ON THIS FORUM....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA...

09-02-2003, 12:43 AM

Miami_Newdist...Loved your story about evil being the abscence of God....Thanks for sharing...Outdoorbare /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dolby

09-02-2003, 06:35 AM

Here we go again!

Why is it so hard to acknowledge the possibility that all religions contain truths, or that many paths can lead to the same place? I went to a catholic school for years, and I was never taught that the bible was supposed to be taken literally, word for word. I also was told to respect the religions of others. When did this all change?

And as for evil on this board ...PLEASE... thought only God had the right to judge. Or has he personally told you,and only you, otherwise.

BrianM

09-02-2003, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David77:

Jesus teaching are summed up by my bible scholar friend thus;
1) The times are critical for humanity. Follow me in first seeking the Kingdom of love on the path of justice. The rest will follow.
2) Sow the good word of love for all, wherever you go, and have faith that it will grow.
3) Let your love be inclusive, like the sun shining on good and bad, like rain falling on just and unjust. Eat with anybody.
4) Treat others with the respect with which you would wish them to treat you.
5) Seek the good of your adversary.
6) Don't set yourself up as judge of others; be prepared to forgive time without number.
7) Befriend the alienated, the troubled, and the needy. Human service is what the Kingdom's service is all about.
8) All persons who seek the good of the human family is an equal partner in the Kingdom of love.
9) Religion exists to serve humanity, not the other way around. The clean heart and eye and the plain word have priority, not correct creed or ritual.
10) Be a contributing citizen of both the Kingdom of law and the Kingdom of love. But love is your one master.
11) Be aware and alert, trusting as the lilly, gentle as the dove, streetsmart as the snake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I must add, that I cannot find anything in this phylosophy that people of any belief should be able to take issue with. Too bad that the good was thrown out for the bad. This is the type of stuff that Thomas Jefferson refered to , when he said that while he didn't completely agree with the inerrancy of the Bible, he did agree with the teachings of Jesus. He considered himself a Christian, but he actually was a Unitarian or agnostic.

Vin

09-02-2003, 07:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
...This is the type of stuff that Thomas Jefferson refered to , when he said that while he didn't completely agree with the inerrancy of the Bible, he did agree with the teachings of Jesus. He considered himself a Christian, but he actually was a Unitarian or agnostic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've always been told that Jefferson, and most of the other Founders, were Deists.

BrianM

09-02-2003, 07:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
Gee, I stand in awe of such knowledgeable people who can so easily explain away God, His word, faith that millions have in Him, and the eternal peace that I have within me because of His love.

What chance does an uneducated fool like me have before such all-knowing ones as yourselves. I bow and give way to your superior intellect. I must rethink my beliefs and doubt my belief in God--NOT! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>JM,
I appreciate your position on this issue, and agree that it is yours and you have the right to have it.
Here is my view on it....As we mature in life, we realize that many fantasies are proven wrong, such as Santa, easter Bunny, etc, many never happen for us, like being an NFL star, movie star, etc. But as these fantasies become reality, at first they hurt a little, sometimes a lot, but you grow stonger as an individual and as a community once you realize that while things may not be as they once were, there is much more in our hands than we ever realized. It is a great responsibility, yet is very rewarding. Just as the "Bible" says, the worlds is put in man's hands to take care of...well, that can't be further from the truth. Man must also learn, to try to save the sick, preserve morals to save humanity (while many of the laws in Bible are rediculous, some were there to prevent the spread of disease and loss of the human species) and to promote a harmonious world for all to enjoy. While we may not live forever, I think that that people live forever in the legacy that they leave with their loved ones. A bad person is soon forgotten, but one who loved and gave their all to themselves AND the ones around them will be remembered forever. Think about that, and tell me if that makes any sense.

BrianM

09-02-2003, 07:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
I've always been told that Jefferson, and most of the other Founders, were Deists. [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here is the last paragraph of the following link. As agnostic, he would fit into the category of Theistic Agnostic, meaning that he beleivved there may be a God, but not sure exactly what it is.
>>>Jefferson's idea about the unity of God and what the real truth about religion was based upon led him to embrace Unitarian beliefs. Unitarianism is a religious movement that imposes no specific creed on its members. Each person is helped and encouraged to discover his or her own truth and meaning in life, and to practice tolerance towards the views of others. Unitarians stress that Jesus was a man whose teaching is to be followed, but he was not necessarily a God to be worshipped. Jefferson was aware that he did not possess a monopoly on truth, although he believed he possessed a larger share than most people<<<<
http://clioseye.sfasu.edu/jefferson/religion.htm

BrianM

09-02-2003, 07:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
I've always been told that Jefferson, and most of the other Founders, were Deists. [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From what I can understand, while I have not read all this completely, is that Theistic Agnostic and Unitarian would fall under the broad category of Deist...or at least somewhat.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04679b.htm

GO AWAY

09-03-2003, 02:03 AM

Ur and Awesome dude OutdoorBare...but I cannot take credit for that story...someone else write it...I just passed it on...

SO FACE DOLBY...hahahaahaa..I WAS NOT PLAYING A JUDGE...HAHAHAAHAHA..SO QUICK TO JUDGE...

LIKE I SAID...

"NO WONDER THERE IS SOOOO MUCH EVIL ON THESE BOARDS"

LORD WE LIFT YOU NAME ON HIGH...LORD WE LOVE TO SING YOUR PRAISES!!!

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PEOPLE DO OR THINK...BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ME NOR DO YOU GOVERN MY LIFE...BUT AS FOR ME AND MY BODY I CHOOSE TO SERVE THE LORD...

WHAT YOU DO IS YOUR BUSINESS...I COULD CARE LESS...

HE IS THE ULTIMATE JUDGE...SO EITHER YOU'LL BOW NOW, OR YOU'LL BOW LATER...BUT YOU WILL BOW...

AND WITH THAT SAID...

I WILL NO LONGER BOTHER WITH CHECKING THIS BOARD... BECAUSE READING THE REPTITIVE RESPONSES IS LIKE STICKING KNIVES IN YOUR STOMACH...

IT'S SICKENING....

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA...

THIS JOY THAT I HAVE..THE WORLD DIDN'T GIVE IT TO ME....THE WORLD DIDN'T GIVE IT...AND THE WORLD CAN'T TAKE IT AWAY....THE WORLD CAN'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM MEEEEEE...

WHOOOO...I LOVE IT...

HOW CAN TWO WALK TOGETHER UNLESS THEY AGREE...

WHOOOO

I LOVE THE LORD AND HIS TEACHING...AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT...

TOUGH... I CHANGE FOR NO MAN, BUT ONLY YO BETTER MYSELF BEFORE THE LORD...IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM...AND IT WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER BE MINE...

THANK YOU JESUS...

I CAN FOR DELIVERANCE, DELIVERANCE I'LL RECEIVE...I CAME FOR SALVATION...AND THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE...

I WILL NEVER TIRE OF SINGING HIS PRAISES...FOR NONE OF YOU CAN PUT OUT THE FIRE THAT IS BURNING DEEP INSIDE OF ME...

"THE MEAN THINGS YOU SAY DON'T MAKE ME FEEL BAD...HOW CAN I LOSE A FRIEND THAT I NEVER HAD...I'VE GOT JESUS AND THAT'S ENOUGH"...

"YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ME, TURN YOUR BACK ON ME...GOD'S GOT HIS ARMS WRAPPED ALL AROUND ME...I'VE GOT JESUS AND THAT'S ENOUGH!!!"

THAT MORE THAN ENOUGH...

WHOOOOOO I LOVE IT...LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE...

AND AN ABUNDANCE OF EVERLASTING JOY...

AMEN

(NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST ME SHALL PROSPER, FOR I AM THE RIGHTEOUS OF THE LORD...AND ANYTHING THAT MAY COME UP AGAINST ME IN JUDGEMENT I WILL PROVE TO BE IN THE WRONG)...

I THANK THE LORD FOR COVERING ME WITH HIS EVERLASTING BLOOD...AND THAT IS ALL I NEED...

JEALOUSY, ENVY, STRIFE, DISSENTION, HATRED, IGNORANCE, ETC... ARE ALL BAD DISEASES...

I HOPE YOU ALL GET CURED SOON!!!

09-03-2003, 02:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Miami_Newdist:
Ur and Awesome dude OutdoorBare...but I cannot take credit for that story...someone else write it...I just passed it on...

SO FACE DOLBY...hahahaahaa..I WAS NOT PLAYING A JUDGE...HAHAHAAHAHA..SO QUICK TO JUDGE...

LIKE I SAID...

"NO WONDER THERE IS SOOOO MUCH EVIL ON THESE BOARDS"

LORD WE LIFT YOU NAME ON HIGH...LORD WE LOVE TO SING YOUR PRAISES!!!

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PEOPLE DO OR THINK...BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ME NOR DO YOU GOVERN MY LIFE...BUT AS FOR ME AND MY BODY I CHOOSE TO SERVE THE LORD...

WHAT YOU DO IS YOUR BUSINESS...I COULD CARE LESS...

HE IS THE ULTIMATE JUDGE...SO EITHER YOU'LL BOW NOW, OR YOU'LL BOW LATER...BUT YOU WILL BOW...

AND WITH THAT SAID...

I WILL NO LONGER BOTHER WITH CHECKING THIS BOARD... BECAUSE READING THE REPTITIVE RESPONSES IS LIKE STICKING KNIVES IN YOUR STOMACH...

IT'S SICKENING....

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA...

THIS JOY THAT I HAVE..THE WORLD DIDN'T GIVE IT TO ME....THE WORLD DIDN'T GIVE IT...AND THE WORLD CAN'T TAKE IT AWAY....THE WORLD CAN'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM MEEEEEE...

WHOOOO...I LOVE IT...

HOW CAN TWO WALK TOGETHER UNLESS THEY AGREE...

WHOOOO

I LOVE THE LORD AND HIS TEACHING...AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT...

TOUGH... I CHANGE FOR NO MAN, BUT ONLY YO BETTER MYSELF BEFORE THE LORD...IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM...AND IT WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER BE MINE...

THANK YOU JESUS...

I CAN FOR DELIVERANCE, DELIVERANCE I'LL RECEIVE...I CAME FOR SALVATION...AND THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE...

I WILL NEVER TIRE OF SINGING HIS PRAISES...FOR NONE OF YOU CAN PUT OUT THE FIRE THAT IS BURNING DEEP INSIDE OF ME...

"THE MEAN THINGS YOU SAY DON'T MAKE ME FEEL BAD...HOW CAN I LOSE A FRIEND THAT I NEVER HAD...I'VE GOT JESUS AND THAT'S ENOUGH"...

"YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ME, TURN YOUR BACK ON ME...GOD'S GOT HIS ARMS WRAPPED ALL AROUND ME...I'VE GOT JESUS AND THAT'S ENOUGH!!!"

THAT MORE THAN ENOUGH...

WHOOOOOO I LOVE IT...LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE...

AND AN ABUNDANCE OF EVERLASTING JOY...

AMEN

(NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST ME SHALL PROSPER, FOR I AM THE RIGHTEOUS OF THE LORD...AND ANYTHING THAT MAY COME UP AGAINST ME IN JUDGEMENT I WILL PROVE TO BE IN THE WRONG)...

I THANK THE LORD FOR COVERING ME WITH HIS EVERLASTING BLOOD...AND THAT IS ALL I NEED...

JEALOUSY, ENVY, STRIFE, DISSENTION, HATRED, IGNORANCE, ETC... ARE ALL BAD DISEASES...

I HOPE YOU ALL GET CURED SOON!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

09-03-2003, 05:10 AM

Dolby

09-03-2003, 05:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ....I WAS NOT PLAYING A JUDGE.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Calling something evil is a value judgement, unless, of course, you feel that evil is a good thing!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I WILL NO LONGER BOTHER CHECKING THIS BOARD... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have said this a few times already. If you are a man of your word, you should live up to it.

Goddess bless!

BrianM

09-03-2003, 05:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Miami_Newdist:
.....JEALOUSY, ENVY, STRIFE, DISSENTION, HATRED, IGNORANCE, ETC... ARE ALL BAD DISEASES...

I HOPE YOU ALL GET CURED SOON!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Miami,
From the nature of your posts, I'm not convinced that you are sincere in your thoughts, but perhaps just a BB troll. Typical childish behaviour. Besides, you're are not very educated in your beliefs, as God states in Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a JEALOUS God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
From your definition, then God himself is diseased.

David77

09-03-2003, 06:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:

This actually doesn't take into consideration those religions that don't believe in a christian god and to atheists and agnostics as well. It basicly claims that those groups can't have good morals and live good lives which many of us know just isn't true. In my personal experience I've found a greater sense of morality in those that don't follow a christian religion.

It is yet another example of not respecting other's beliefs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cyndiann,
Very well said.

Vin

09-03-2003, 08:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Miami_Newdist:
.....JEALOUSY, ENVY, STRIFE, DISSENTION, HATRED, IGNORANCE, ETC... ARE ALL BAD DISEASES...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...for I the Lord thy God am a JEALOUS God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
From your definition, then God himself is diseased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>BrianM,

Good point!

Vin

09-03-2003, 08:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
This actually doesn't take into consideration those religions that don't believe in a christian god and to atheists and agnostics as well. It basicly claims that those groups can't have good morals and live good lives which many of us know just isn't true. In my personal experience I've found a greater sense of morality in those that don't follow a christian religion.

It is yet another example of not respecting other's beliefs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Indeed. Thank you.

David77

09-03-2003, 05:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
I've always been told that Jefferson, and most of the other Founders, were Deists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From what I can understand, while I have not read all this completely, is that Theistic Agnostic and Unitarian would fall under the broad category of Deist...or at least somewhat.[/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Theologically, we Unitarians are a pluralistic denomination.
In theological positions, everyone in the denomination is in a minority.
No theological label (theist, deist, wiccan, buddhist, humanist, etc.) is claimed by as many as 50% of us.
(I lean toward the philosophy of Naturalistic Humanism and Ethical Society).

Unitarians have inherited a tradition of
religious freedom that affirms a radical respect for the dignity and moral agency of each person,
challenging a world of dogma and superstition with this faith.
It remains rooted in freedom of inquiry and expression,
tolerance for the multidimensional character of truth,
and values the fullest exercise of reason in religious life.

Trailscout

09-07-2003, 11:16 AM

It is plain that pockets of truth and elements of God's original plan are still intact in this fallen world, even among people who do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

However, true morality cannot exist in the heart of one who has not submitted his or her life wholly to the Holy One of Israel.

And in our day, the only way to peace with God, forgiveness of sin and eternal life with God the Father is through believing in Jesus, God the Son.
(Prior to the coming of Messiah, spirits of the departed were in a waiting place before they could enter the presence of the Almighty).
Though many have tried to set up world religions and belief systems to attain a state of morality, they have all failed to achieve their goal. There is no way to God and goodness apart from Jesus the Messiah.

If you are not in servant relation to Jesus the Messiah, but you truly seek to be a moral person, God will reveal Messiah to you during your lifetime and do for you what you could not do for yourself, attain peace with God and true morality.

09-07-2003, 11:36 AM

However, true morality cannot exist in the heart of one who has not submitted his or her life wholly to the Holy One of Israel.

Hahaha! Hehehehehe! ROFLOL! *s*

Why do you continue this same old arguement?

Morality has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Never has, never will. You are a prime example that that.

Nat

09-07-2003, 11:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
It is plain that pockets of truth and elements of God's original plan are still intact in this fallen world, even among people who do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

However, true morality cannot exist in the heart of one who has not submitted his or her life wholly to the Holy One of Israel.

And in our day, the only way to peace with God, forgiveness of sin and eternal life with God the Father is through believing in Jesus, God the Son.
(Prior to the coming of Messiah, spirits of the departed were in a waiting place before they could enter the presence of the Almighty).
Though many have tried to set up world religions and belief systems to attain a state of morality, they have all failed to achieve their goal. There is no way to God and goodness apart from Jesus the Messiah.

If you are not in servant relation to Jesus the Messiah, but you truly seek to be a moral person, God will reveal Messiah to you during your lifetime and do for you what you could not do for yourself, attain peace with God and true morality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trailscout

09-07-2003, 12:05 PM

I guess that is the central issue.

Can any created being live a life in total rebellion and disbelief against the Creator and and all his plans, then claim to be moral by a few good deeds?

Dolby

09-07-2003, 12:54 PM

Trailscout,

So....by your definition, only a Christians have morals? That contradicts my experience. Or do you need to believe in a creator? Most Wiccans believe the universe was created by a higher power. Or must it be exacly what you mean when you say "Creator?" I find it hard to comprehend that there is only one correct way in the entire world to look at this.

BTW, I am not disputing that there is truth in Christianity, as there is in many religions. Nor am I stating that you are incorrect in your beliefs, any more than I am incorrect in mine.

Trailscout

09-07-2003, 08:06 PM

Well,
The truth is that neither Christians nor Wiccans have morals. Only the Holy One of Israel has morals.

Being moral is nothing more than being in the perfect will of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. His morality and goodness will live inside us and work through us, it is not our own.

There is an example in the book of Acts of a Roman soldier named Cornelius who kept the commandments in the Torah and prayed fervently every day. He was not a Christian, but he walked in the light he was given and God gave him a greater light.

The only moral thing you and I can do is to seek Messiah with all our heart, mind and strength. Even this desire is a gift from above. But if we do this thing, he will draw near to us, indwell us and empower us with his goodness light and love.

Vin

09-08-2003, 06:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Well,
The truth is that neither Christians nor Wiccans have morals. Only the Holy One of Israel has morals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Since this is turning into a debate on what exactly "moral" means, I thought a dictionary definition might help.

" moral adj. 1. Of or pertaining to the principles of right and wrong. 2. In accordance with standards of right conduct: virtuous. 3. Arising from the inner sense of right and wrong. (emphasis mine). 4. Psychological rather than physical or concrete...."

--Websters II New Riverside Dictionary Revised Edition

I don't see anything there that require one be of any particular faith in order to be a moral person. And I have to say that since only about 30% of the planet's population is Christian, I certainly hope Christians don't have a monopoly on moral behavior. Otherwise, we're in big trouble.

BB,
Vin

shãybare

09-08-2003, 06:30 PM

Vin, Well spoken.

Bob S.

09-08-2003, 08:10 PM

Trailscout, please start respecting everyone else's opinions and beliefs. And stop calling us amoral.

And may I remind you that I only found G*d when I stopped believing in Jesus as the Messiah, when I looked away from Christianity.

And yet, I know the difference between right and wrong, the ultimate definition of morality, I have found my own place in the cosmos, I understand the universe and this reality more. Going back to Christianity will do me absolutely no good. You may believe I am living a lie, and so be it, but if you do, keep it to yourself. The best way to turn Christianity into a curse word is to preach to those who have no want to be converted and who feel comfortable in their own beliefs.

"Can any created being live a life in total rebellion and disbelief against the Creator and and all his plans, then claim to be moral by a few good deeds?"

That is a good philosophical question has probably been asked many times through the ages. It is also a question that sci-fi writers have dealt with over and over again. From Isaac Asimov to Gene Roddenberry, this question has been tackled.

Of course, if one believes that there was no higher power that created them, then their creators are their parents. It would then be that relationship that you would base their life by.

If one believes in Buudha, then it would be their relationship with Buddha that would steer their morals.

Are you suggesting that the ancient peoples before Jesus came around were also all immoral? There were the Celts, Druids, Greeks, Romans, Inca, Mongolians, Aztec, Cherokee, etc. Were all of these peoples also amoral?

One can worship Satan and still know the difference between right and wrong. Enough already, Trailscout.

Bob S.

09-08-2003, 09:04 PM

Vin and Bob, thanks for your words.

Jochanaan

09-09-2003, 11:13 AM

I don't think Trailscout meant to insult anyone when he said that neither Wiccans nor Christians (nor anyone else) had morals. Remember, he's including himself and all Christians in that assessment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is a profound truth about Christianity: No one can be good by his own efforts. It is God, through Jesus's death on the cross and the Holy Spirit's presence and power, that helps us to be good if we believe and obey His Word. Therefore we cannot condemn anyone for being "sinners" or "amoral," since we would also include ourselves in the condemnation.

09-09-2003, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
I don't think Trailscout meant to insult anyone when he said that neither Wiccans nor Christians (nor anyone else) had morals. Remember, he's including himself and all Christians in that assessment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is a profound truth about Christianity: No one can be good by his own efforts. It is God, through Jesus's death on the cross and the Holy Spirit's presence and power, that helps us to be good if we believe and obey His Word. Therefore we cannot condemn anyone for being "sinners" or "amoral," since we would also include ourselves in the condemnation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That isn't a "truth", it is an opinion, profound or not. I know all kinds of people who are good just because they think it is the right thing to do. I am sorry you don't know any such people. Maybe you are hanging with the wrong crowd. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

definition time...

morals-Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character. Notice there is no mention of religion.

truth-Conformity to fact or actuality.
A statement proven to be or accepted as true.

Since christianity is based on beliefs and not facts then you can't relate it to truth. That would be just an opinion.

There is no historical evidence that there was anyone named Jesus. The gospels were written way after he was dead by people who had never known him.

MaxUK

09-09-2003, 12:39 PM

Didn't think I'd ever say it, but I 100% agre with you on this one Cyndiann - rock on!!

Max

hankster

09-09-2003, 01:04 PM

I am bit reluctant to weigh in on this one, but here I go. I agree with you, Cyndiann there are millions of people who have high morals and behave accordingly who are not religious at all or even do not believe in God. I have a VERY good friend in Orange County, CA that is agnostic (at best), but one of the most moral (and kind-hearted people I know. Her husband is the same. Conversely, I know lots of (so-called) Christians that are not particularly moral in their behavior (Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind) or lifestyles.

Having said that, I do not agree with your position, that there is NO evidence that Jesus ever lived. On the contrary, there is plenty. I have read extensively on the subject years ago when I was in college. I am completely convinced he lived. I no like you that there are others that do not. I respect that.

Vin

09-09-2003, 01:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
That isn't a "truth", it is an opinion, profound or not. I know all kinds of people who are good just because they think it is the right thing to do....

There is no historical evidence that there was anyone named Jesus. The gospels were written way after he was dead by people who had never known him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cyndiann, well said!

I had a college professor who believed that there is a man in surviving Roman tax records that can be identified as Jesus of Nazareth. My prof never claimed any divinity for this figure, however. He left that in the realm of faith. And in fairness, since then I've come across other references noting several men named "Jesus" in the historical record of the time, so maybe my professor was engaged in wishful thinking.

Nonetheless, I've always believed that Jesus (if he existed) was probably one of the good guys. But there's no way to prove that because, as you say, the earliest existing stories about him were written at least 30 years after he allegedly died. I can't remember with certainty what my wife said last night, much less what a teacher said three decades ago. Judging from research into human memory, none of us recalls anything with 100% accuracy. There's ample evidence that most of the New Testament was influenced by, if not based on, a theoretical Gospel of Q. So the collection is, at best, a fictional work that may be based on fact.

That doesn't negate its validity as a spiritual path for those to whom it speaks. I just wish more of those who follow it could acknowledge that it is true in their opinion, and respect the rest of us by acknowledging the validity of our paths.

David77

09-09-2003, 06:50 PM

Falavius Josephus, who lived from 37 to 101 AD, was a Jewish priest who wrote extensive historical accounts of the Jews and about events. He mentions Jesus in his account, called "Antiquities". There are three Greek manuscripts of this work, all from the 11th century. There is also an Arabic document of this work. The Greek and the Arabic documents can be read on the following web page;
http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html

David77

09-09-2003, 07:34 PM

Scholar's analysis of what is authentic writing in the 11th century Josephus manuscript, is discussed on the following web page;

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/question.htm

In conclusion to Jim Walker's well reasoned web page, he states;
"So if you hear anyone who claims to have evidence for a witness of a historical Jesus, simply ask for the author's birth date. Anyone who's birth occurred after an event cannot serve as an eyewitness, nor can their words alone serve as evidence for that event".

Vin

09-09-2003, 08:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David77:
Scholar's analysis of what is authentic writing in the 11th century Josephus manuscript, is discussed on the following web page....

[Jim Walker]: "Anyone who's birth occurred after an event cannot serve as an eyewitness, nor can their words alone serve as evidence for that event". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very interesting links. And an excellent reminder of basic logic vis-a-vis "eyewitnesses."

Thanks, David.

BrianM

09-09-2003, 08:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David77:
Falavius Josephus, who lived from 37 to 101 AD, was a Jewish priest who wrote extensive historical accounts of the Jews and about events. He mentions Jesus in his account, called "Antiquities". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A sceptical view of this writing, other than stated by David77 above, is that:
1) This document is believed to have been forged, and other than the statement, there is no other reference to to Jesus by Josephus in any of his extensive writings.
2) His writings, if real, was the statement that the legend existed, whether it was true or false, and he makes no statement that this person was any messiah..because..
3) Josephus was Jewish, and not a Christian..If he believed the stories, he would not be a Jewish Priest.
However, with that said, a rational approach is that he may have been a person, and may have befriended a few of the desciples, but the stories told and documented have no real evidence to back them up, and in fact, mock much older pagan traditional beliefs..The difference was "Jesus" was man (makes it easier to relate to something believable), but with the same wonderful attributes of Mithra. Since the Roman Church actually created much of the documentation in the New Testement, this all falls together and makes sense. I posted these before, but see this:
http://www.bibleorigins.net/NewTestament.html
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/godquiz.htm
http://www.vetssweatshop.net/dogma.htm

David77

09-10-2003, 03:44 AM

Brian M,
I concur with your reasoning. Your web references parellels Jim Walker's observation of ancient similarities - http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Jochanaan

09-10-2003, 01:00 PM

Has anyone tried to find out if the Twelve Disciples actually existed? And if so, how they lived--and died?

I read a book a long time ago about the Twelve, and it described how they went all over the known world preaching the gospel. Now, if Jesus was just a man, making the claims he did about himself (for he did claim he was God, many times and in many ways), you would expect that after he was killed the disciples would have lost faith and run for their lives--as indeed they did in the days immediately after their leader was crucified. But instead, you see a group of men on fire, turning the world upside down, and each of them died--and eleven of them were executed for their faith--believing that Jesus was in fact who He said He was.

Can Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or anyone else claim that kind of total loyalty from his followers?

(I am indebted to Josh McDowell, author of "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," for much of the information here.)

David77

09-10-2003, 04:11 PM

Johanaan,
The best over-all description and research (that I know of) is contained in the book by the brilliant theologian/scholar, John Dominic Crossan, entitled,

"The Birth of Christianity - Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus".

Trailscout

09-11-2003, 04:51 AM

Josephus' writings go into great detail about everyday 1st century life and cannot be fabricated. He was an eye witness to the massacre at Masada that was not otherwise confirmed until centuries later. He was also a contemporary of many of the apostles. The disciple John reportedly lived to about 90 or 100 A.D., for example.

The gospels are not a creation of the Roman church but clearly originate in Palestine. The Koine text, extensive references to everyday Jewish life, the occasional Aramaic quotes, the abundant archaelogical evidence of a thriving church in the first and second centuries in the eastern Mediterranean regions all bespeak the antiquity and authenticity of the Christian movement.

Josephus was one of the Jews who did not embrace Jesus as Messiah, but he admitted his existence and openly wondered if he might indeed be God the Son.

We do not need to invoke the pagan Roman religion of Mithra to explain the Messianic movement within Judaism. The pre-Christian Bible is full of Messianic references, especially in the books of Isaiah and Psalms. Many Jews were expecting a Messiah. Most were not aware that he would be God's own son, but in hindsight the evidence from scripture is clear enough.

Vin

09-11-2003, 06:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
Josephus' writings go into great detail about everyday 1st century life and cannot be fabricated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>On what basis do you say that his writings cannot be fabricated?

BrianM

09-11-2003, 06:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
The gospels are not a creation of the Roman church but clearly originate in Palestine. The Koine text, extensive references to everyday Jewish life, the occasional Aramaic quotes, the abundant archaelogical evidence of a thriving church in the first and second centuries in the eastern Mediterranean regions all bespeak the antiquity and authenticity of the Christian movement.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trailscout...I'll admit you probably know your stuff here, more so than myself, I am just learning. But I am searching from a clean slate for the "truth", first to understand the origin of mainstream religion, and to make some sense (for myself) of all the data. Look at this article about the early Jewish-Christians and what became of them. The religion we know as Christianity is heavily driven by Roman influence, regardless where it started. The early Jewish Christian Movement you mentioned existed, but became extinct. Also, you know that Paul considered himself a Roman citizen, and he also spent time in Rome, while writing various scriptures.
Here is an except from this article:
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paulorigin.html#jewishxtian

"By around 90 CE, they were excluded from the Jewish community who called them minim and excluded them from synagogue service. By the time of the second Jewish Revolt of 132-135 CE, the so-called Bar Kochba Revolt, the Nazarenes were no longer considered part of the developing Rabbinic Judaism.

Rejected by the Jews, the Nazarenes and Ebionites did not fare any better with the Christians. The Gentile churches, the original heterodox followers of Paul, instead of recognizing the Nazarenes and Ebionites for who they actually were, branded them heretics and began to persecute them. They twisted the meaning of their name, Ebionites, calling them "those of poor understanding."

By the fifth century CE, the true followers of the historical Jesus became just another footnote in Christian ecclesiastical history. The real story of Jesus ended with them. The other story, the one told by the "apostle" Paul, continues to this day."

Also, there was something called the Hellonistic movement, occuring both in Rome and among the Jews at this time, where people began believing that they should have individual salvation, rather than salvation as a group, as the Jewish "chosen ones" were. With Paul's Roman background, and since he didn't actually know the living Jesus, it just makes sense that this accepted Roman dogma of Mithra could have been woven into the life of Jesus, to make a credible story which would sell to the Roman citizens and the Jewish as well. These stories weaved the hellonistic views that were developing at the time, with the common belief of Mithratism, in a Jewish package. Paul was a theological genius, when looked at historically.

David77

09-11-2003, 06:40 AM

This is my own personal opinion, and I am not trying to influence the mind of anyone else to adopt my personal opinion.

Whether anyone believes that Jesus actually existed in history, or whether a person believes Jesus is "only" a fictional character, does not alter the obvious fact that the CONCEPT of the person, Jesus, (with it's various interpretations) has been one of the most influential religious concepts shaping history, (both for better and for worse) in the western world, at least.

As we know, Mohammad, and the teacher Buddha have also shaped many millions of minds. Confusianism and Taoism, are included in the seven paramount religions of world history, influencing many millions throughout the centuries.

To my way of thinking, whether Jesus was "real" or "fictional" does not alter the fact that the CONCEPT of Jesus was, and is, extremely important in the making of the modern mind.

There is no huge importance to me of whether Jesus was a historical figure or not. For me, as a Humanist, either one of the answers would not alter my recognizing the influence of Christianity on individuals and the world.

Others can, and will, think whatever they wish about Jesus and authenticity! They won't be burned at the stake for herasy!
I will respect their freedom of belief and their intellectual religious inquiry.

David77

09-11-2003, 07:08 AM

I think that most people think that Josephus did an overall good job as a historian of a great deal of ancient history as well as of his religion. He reported some Jewish history from the biased viewpoint of his privileged priestly family.

BrianM

09-11-2003, 07:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
(I am indebted to Josh McDowell, author of "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," for much of the information here.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jochanaan,
Just for literary reference, take a look at this critique of this book. I have not read ETDAV, but I have read "More than a Carpenter", which seems to have many of the same themes. From What I understand, McDowell is more of a capitalist in the Faith Industry, rather than a scholar since his focus is on selling books, not arguing his points with Atheists.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.shtml

David77

09-11-2003, 08:39 AM

Jochanaan,
Referring to your reference to disciples myrtyrdom; loyalty to a religious teacher/leader is not a proof of "truth".

Pardon the disgusting reference, but the people followed their leader to Jonesburg and mass suicide, but it has no bearing on proving "truth".

Jochanaan

09-11-2003, 09:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David77:
Johanaan,
Referring to your reference to disciples myrtyrdom; loyalty to a religious teacher/leader is not a proof of "truth".

Pardon the disgusting reference, but the people followed their leader to Jonesburg and mass suicide, but it has no bearing on proving "truth". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True. But there is a difference: The hundreds of people at Jonesburg were heavily under the influence of a leader who was very much alive until he and they drank the poison, nor were they under torture designed to make them recant. Jesus had already died (and resurrected and ascended, but that's another story) long before the Twelve met their deaths, and so his direct influence was not there. Would Jim Jones' followers, decades after his death, have maintained their belief in him under, say, FBI interrogation?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Whether anyone believes that Jesus actually existed in history, or whether a person believes Jesus is "only" a fictional character, does not alter the obvious fact that the CONCEPT of the person, Jesus, (with it's various interpretations) has been one of the most important and influential religious concepts in history, which has shaped history and motivated peoples minds like no other (in the western world, at least). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can agree with that. But it's comforting to me to know that there's good evidence that Jesus of Nazareth existed and no good evidence that he didn't.

Ah, well...If facts alone could convince, it would be a much happier world.

BrianM

09-11-2003, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Originally posted by Jochanaan:
True. But there is a difference: The hundreds of people at Jonesburg were heavily under the influence of a leader who was very much alive until he and they drank the poison, nor were they under torture designed to make them recant. Jesus had already died (and resurrected and ascended, but that's another story) long before the Twelve met their deaths, and so his direct influence was not there. Would Jim Jones' followers, decades after his death, have maintained their belief in him under, say, FBI interrogation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That may not been directly analogous to Jesus, but you can draw a direct reference to other established religions (Islam for example) and say the same thing. Are they right about their religion also, because they are willing to die for it? Also, These murdered souls were not coming forward to die for the cause, they were simply executed as any other criminal would be. The Early Christians were targeted as the poor and uneducated, low class citizens, so they may have been more gullable with not much hope of sucess in the world, so they simply believed that they had nothing to lose
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
But it's comforting to me to know that there's good evidence that Jesus of Nazareth existed and no good evidence that he didn't.

Ah, well...If facts alone could convince, it would be a much happier world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would love to see the evidence and facts. Not urban legends, but real facts. You need no evidence to prove someone didn't exist, but you do need evidence to prove they did exist.

09-11-2003, 12:37 PM

Another thought.... even if he did exist that doesn't prove he did all those things that are atributed to him and it doesn't make him the son of the christian god.

BrianM

09-11-2003, 01:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
Another thought.... even if he did exist that doesn't prove he did all those things that are atributed to him and it doesn't make him the son of the christian god. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, but no one has yet to prove an existance of the man, much less any heroics. As you said, once his existance and heroics are proven, then we can discuss how he did it. Personally, my guess is that a person did exist, but his life was greatly exagerated (Mithrasized). That's easy to do to a dead person, or one who never existed.

sawdust

09-11-2003, 10:03 PM

If I may, I would like to interject a new thought for your consideration. No Christian has ever been able to argue anyone into a belief in Jesus Christ. Seemingly all the arguments have been made, all the human reasoning said and all that could have been considered, have only gone to prove both stated side and my statement. Christian people can not save any one, not even them selves. I am always amazed that a personality, who so many say could not and did not historically exist could so upset generations of people. If Jesus did not exist and all that He supposedly did is a fabrication of zelots, why be so disturbed by it all? Lets face it, if the worlds reasoning is correct, what harm have these believers in Jesus Christ done? There only error is in believing in the life and teaching of Jesus Christ, a non existant person. No real harm to anyone and certainly no real loss! On the other hand, if we take time to justly consider that the teachings of the God/Man Jesus Christ are true, perhaps time should be taken to reconsider any previous stands? By the previously stated way of thinking, life can be lived with out appology and with out any consequence to the life style lived. Dead is dead, and that is all there is to it! That way of thinking makes human life rather cheep and meaningless in itself don't you think? If the believers in Jesus Christ are correct though, there is life after death and there is a dreadful consequence as to how we frivolusly conduct our earthly /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif lives. Can we people be so cavalier as to not seriously consider both sides of such a serious issue? Based on each our existing belief values, where will we spend our eternity? Will it be in a forgotten, dirt filled hole or with the claimed God of creation and all that implies? Just a new thought for your consideration! Thanks, Jet

Vin

09-12-2003, 06:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sawdust:
If I may, I would like to interject a new thought for your consideration.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a restatement of the fear tactic "If Christians are wrong, but you live by their principles anyway, what have you lost? If they are right, what have you gained? Is it really worth the risk?"

This has already been addressed in another thread. One way to state the short answer is that a conviction not worth living is not worth having. Those of us who follow another spiritual path are, as you say, unlikely to be swayed by this argument. Why bring it up again?

florida-david

09-12-2003, 09:41 AM

sawdust states: Lets face it, if the worlds reasoning is correct, what harm have these believers in Jesus Christ done? There only error is in believing in the life and teaching of Jesus Christ, a non existant person. No real harm to anyone and certainly no real loss!

are you kidding?? how many people have died in the name of christianity? how many continue to die in the name of christianity? did not the indians practice their own beliefs until they were converted or killed? are not abortion doctors being killed today in the name of a christian God. why is it that religious people feel the need to convert others? if you are happy with your beliefs, fine, but no need to kill me because i do not agree....

anyways, sorry for getting upset.

sawdust

09-12-2003, 01:53 PM

David. No apology on your part is required for standing up for your own convictions. After all that is what these exchanges are all about, hearing what other people think on a meriod of subjects. Never take any reply personally. It is only another persons point of view for you to consider. As for your statement concerning travesties committed in the name of God, do you choose to ignore all the evil done in the world which is not done in His name? The scales would most certainly tip towards the world and its daily human travisties. Have you forgotten the deeds of Hitler, Stalin, Iddie Amene Dada and many others? Countless millions of people have lost their lives at the hands of these worldly men and their leadership. This can not excuse the sinfull deads of people who have committed murder in the name of God. I just ask though that you look at it in true daily and historical perspective. Thanks, Jet

Ren

09-12-2003, 05:02 PM

To answer David... I was a pretty sorry Catholic, because I didn't buy into a lot of what I was told (except that I believed that I was always in mortal danger of a fiery afterlife if my thoughts strayed). Most Christian religions follow some version of the tenet to "spread the good Word" to the world. Conversion, in fact, is integral to the existence of these religions and is a tradition. This is why there are a ton of religious networks (times ten in the south - a recent trip there, one was playing in the bar and that was all I could watch), why people will travel down the street to preach conversion. Without piety and guilt, there would be no religion. And since many take the Bible literally rather than as allegory, they practice conversion.

To appease Sawdust... sure a lot of evil has not been done in the name of God, but most of the killing in the past 2000 years have been connected to religious dispute one way or another from the crucifixion to the Crusades to World War II to the current Isreal-Palestine debacle. (Some might even say that since Bush worships oil so much that he's waging his own version of a holy war.) The crucifixion is one of the most prevalent and accepted violent images in the world. If there is conflict, a dispute about or in the name of God probably lurks in the trenches somewhere.

sawdust

09-12-2003, 11:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ren:
To answer David... I was a pretty sorry Catholic, because I didn't buy into a lot of what I was told (except that I believed that I was always in mortal danger of a fiery afterlife if my thoughts strayed). Most Christian religions follow some version of the tenet to "spread the good Word" to the world. Conversion, in fact, is integral to the existence of these religions and is a tradition. This is why there are a ton of religious networks (times ten in the south - a recent trip there, one was playing in the bar and that was all I could watch), why people will travel down the street to preach conversion. Without piety and guilt, there would be no religion. And since many take the Bible literally rather than as allegory, they practice conversion.

To appease Sawdust... sure a lot of evil has not been done in the name of God, but most of the killing in the past 2000 years have been connected to religious dispute one way or another from the crucifixion to the Crusades to World War II to the current Isreal-Palestine debacle. (Some might even say that since Bush worships oil so much that he's waging his own version of a holy war.) The crucifixion is one of the most prevalent and accepted violent images in the world. If there is conflict, a dispute about or in the name of God probably lurks in the trenches somewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Ren, Two weeks ago my wife and I were also in the Bible Belt on a motor tour. Like you I noticed that where ever you tuned your radio or went, some preacher was on the air sharing the gospel. I also noticed that in these various places it was treated like back ground noise. Not too much notice was really given to it in any of the places we visited. So maybe the residence of the Bible Belt should pull in its belt a few knotches.
As for why people in the south and other places are out busily sharing the gospel is found in the NT, last chapter of the book of Matthew 28:19. In brief it says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." and this is called The Great Commission. The Christian's boss told them to do it. Now that realy is an orders from on high! Believe it or not!
Thanks for your time, Jet

Jochanaan

09-13-2003, 08:32 AM

It is true that many inappropriate and even atrocious means of conversion have been used. I will only say that such methods come, not from following Jesus' instructions, but from not following them. Never did He say "convert or kill." He said, "Go, and I (My Spirit) will go with you."

David77

09-13-2003, 09:17 AM

One of my main irritants are these telemarketers who call with their sales pitch. Thank goodness the national "no call list" goes into effect next month!

I also hardily dislike sales pitches for Jesus or any other religion.

I wish they too, had a national "no call list" and "no proselytizing list". I bet nearly everyone would put their name on that type of list!

I, as well as my Unitarian Church, do not believe in proselytizing, and thus we have no missioneries.

I try to stay away from religious people (including my sister-in-law) who are pests bugging me in an attempt to sell me on their "commissioned" beliefs. Some are looking for a sales comission in heaven, I suppose!

R.M. Greenman

10-19-2003, 10:12 PM

Some christian views on halloween/ Samhain is another thing driving me away from church.

steve53

12-30-2007, 11:52 AM

"Evil is a term man developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light"

This actually doesn't take into consideration those religions that don't believe in a christian god and to atheists and agnostics as well. It basicly claims that those groups can't have good morals and live good lives which many of us know just isn't true. In my personal experience I've found a greater sense of morality in those that don't follow a christian religion.

It is yet another example of not respecting other's beliefs.

Thank you for that comment. I'm an atheist. I do believe my morals are stronger than those of some who don the cloak of "christian." The atheists I've met seem to be of high moral character. Speaking for only myself, I just don't buy into a "God." If pressed to do so I would necessarily ask "Which one?'