What religion/church do you belong to? [Archive]

Vin

10-01-2002, 12:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
I have noticed that many people identify themselves as Christians, but I also know there are many faiths that fall under this category, and many more that do not. Just curious, what religion are you? I thought about making this question a poll, but I am sure I would manage to leave many faiths out, as there are so many. I am Roman Catholic.

Jim /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hope I'm not upsetting anyone here, but I'm Wiccan (as much as I'm anything). "Eclectic Religious Mutt" may be more like it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was raised in a very open household, but attended a Southern Baptist church for a time as a teen. It just wasn't for me. I finally found my current path a few years ago. I have a lot of respect for people who have found their paths and know what they want from life.

Vin

David77

10-01-2002, 03:03 PM

Unitarian Universalist and Ethical Society.

californiabare

10-01-2002, 03:48 PM

I'm a Baptist, active--but a Christian above all.

GAR

10-01-2002, 06:13 PM

I am Wiccan /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

10-01-2002, 10:17 PM

I'm a Baptist at the moment and have been since accepting Christ 39 years ago at age 17. However, my denomination may change.

Be nude and have fun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

wannabenaked2001

10-02-2002, 09:48 AM

David77, Just curious, but could you explain the very basics of being "Unitarian Universalist and Ethical Society". I have never heard of this before.

Also, I think I have a clue, but what is the Wiccan religion all about? I belive it is what my religious leaders would call a "pegan" religion, honoring more "earthly" forces, but I really don't know.

I am not trying to make fun of anyone's religion, I am just curious.

Jim

David77

10-02-2002, 11:04 AM

wannabenaked2001,
To answer your questions, here are two web pages;

Unitartian Universalist Association Principles and Purposes -
http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

Ethical Culture - Eight Commitments -
http://www.aeu.org/8commit.html

Vin

10-02-2002, 02:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
[W]hat is the Wiccan religion all about? I belive it is what my religious leaders would call a "pegan" religion, honoring more "earthly" forces, but I really don't know.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jim,

Wicca is, indeed, a neopagan religion. It's largely earth/nature-centered and sees Deity as a duality (male/female). There's sometimes more emphasis on the Goddess than the God. Some Wiccans believe that all gods are merely different faces of one godhead; others think that they're all distinct entities. The forms of worship are pretty eclectic, unless you belong to a group or tradition that has set rituals. Religious holidays are the equinoxes and solstices together with the days that fall approximately midway between them. Most Wiccans (not all) practice some form of psychic working, and most adhere to a basic philosophy of "If it harm none, do what you will." And most believe that whatever personal energy you send into the universe (happiness, love, anger, vengeance...) comes back to you.

Note the looseness of this response. Not all Wiccans believe or practice in exactly the same way, and that's cool. In fact, there's a sort of inside joke that if you ask 5 Wiccans what they believe, you'll get at least 6 different answers. It's very much about listening to your inner voice and following your intuition to develop your own relationship(s) with the god(s).

Any other Wiccans feel free to help me out here.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BB,
Vin

gamblefish

10-02-2002, 06:37 PM

Original post by outdoorbare:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Hi! I was baptized Roman Catholic at age 12, dropped out...became Presbyterian with marriage ,I truly try to live a good Christian Life, ...feel I should be doing more toward my salvation....feeling guilt but hoping for eternal life after death. Believing God created us and this world....loves us and will not abandon us when we die! That about sums it up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey outdoorbare,
Read Ephesians 2:8-9.
Also, John chapter 3 & 14.

Just want you to know that we don't earn our salvation...it is a free gift. Reach out and receive it today!!

PS-If ya don't have a bible...check this out:
Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org)

GOD BLESS YA!!

Douglas George

10-02-2002, 06:46 PM

I didn't attend church until a year and a half ago. I now attend a United Pentecostal Church, and was baptised there last spring. My being a nudist has nothing do do with my religion. You can be both a Christian and a nudist. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

wannabenaked2001

10-02-2002, 07:42 PM

David77

I have to admit, your belive system is interesting. It seems to use all the "do onto others" and "love your fellow man" teachings of most religions while leaving the "higher power" stuff up to the individual. From what I read, one could follow these teachings and still be a Christian, Jew or one of many others.

Thanks for helping me understand!

Jim /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GAR

10-04-2002, 07:19 AM

Vin. I have to agree with you. For all others go to a book store and read a book by Starhawk called The Spiral Dance. this will answer most of your questions. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif If not you can find alot of info on the internet. Good hunting.

Trailscout

10-11-2002, 06:49 PM

I was raised in the Methodist church and still make frequent visits to Methodist worship services. I don't give rubber-stamp approval to everything I have ever heard from the pulpit, but I would say that Methodists are basically orthodox in what they teach. The thing I like the most about them is that in matters that are not essential to Christian doctrine, (such as social nudity), Methodist culture is remarkably tolerant.
I have several Methodist friends who have enjoyed going to a nude beach. There are perhaps some who would not approve, so we don't flaunt it, but we don't live in fear of being cast out of the congregation if discovered.

Bob S.

10-11-2002, 10:50 PM

I was raised Methodist.

I unofficially (in my heart, not by a rabbi) converted to Judaism. However, I bascially use Judaism as my base religion and have beliefs ranging from Hinduism to Buddhism to Wiccan with a bit of atheism bouncing around. In other words, I am a mix of religious beleifs giving me a very individualistic view of religious ideals.

Bob S.

Vin

10-23-2002, 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
...In other words, I am a mix of religious beleifs giving me a very individualistic view of religious ideals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds like a good start on Paganism to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BB,
Vin

RalphVa

11-07-2002, 04:20 AM

church of Christ, non-traditionalist, just follow the Bible.

Ralph

nudistwheelchair

11-08-2002, 11:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RalphVa:
church of Christ, non-traditionalist, just follow the Bible.

Ralph <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>are you part of the Boston Movement

11-12-2002, 01:25 PM

The older I get, the less important I think about denominationalism. But, out of sentimental value and I guess basic beliefs, I am a conservative Quaker (Religious Society of Friends).

Out of my concerns I started NaturistChristian@yahoogroups.com which Yahoo deleted. In one month we have grown to over 3000 members, apparently the largest Christian Naturist group. We would love to have you take a look an participate with us. We are linked to INA and strictly limit our posts to Naturism consistent with Christianity. Much of our material comes from INA.

Come join us: (at our new sites)

NaturismWorldwide-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

We also have a permanent website which is to be our permanent home: www.naturist-christians.org (http://www.naturist-christians.org)

WE are exploring means of greater cooperation to avoid duplication of efforts so as to put more into gaining public acceptance of Naturism.

At the present time we have outstanding forums, hundreds of quotes, the beginning of a listing of every Naturist Friendly Place in the world and now we have over 1100 outstanding Naturist Photographs. Wehave links to 500 moral Naturist sites (no porn allowed)

Bill Martin Friend@comcast.net

serpes

11-19-2002, 02:56 PM

I was raised a Roman Catholic and the Church looks gravely at nudity as they teach after the fall of Adam and Eve, they looked at their own bodies shamefully and clothing began. Man and Woman should only be naked to each other within the bounds of marriage and to no other public even their doctors. Even a parent should respect the privacy of a child within their own family.

How can we reconcile the conservative Catholic philosophy with the healthy attitude of INS toward nudity?

JohnDreamwhistle

11-19-2002, 03:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by serpes:
I was raised a Roman Catholic and the Church looks gravely at nudity as they teach after the fall of Adam and Eve, they looked at their own bodies shamefully and clothing began. Man and Woman should only be naked to each other within the bounds of marriage and to no other public even their doctors. Even a parent should respect the privacy of a child within their own family.

How can we reconcile the conservative Catholic philosophy with the healthy attitude of INS toward nudity? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JohnDreamwhistle

11-19-2002, 03:18 PM

Actually, the naturist position on the human body and the position of the Catholic Church are not all that far away when understood in the proper context. The Catholic Church teaches The human body shares in the dignity of ?the image of God? The reason the church comes out against modern day nudity is that in a clothed society, all nudity is equated to sexual nudity and is therefore immodest.

For example, if you travel to a primitive part of the world where nudity is part of the natural style of life, then being nude is not immodest and therefore not sexual. You have to interpret things within their cultural context.

The church simply teaches that the human body is holy and should not be used as an object to promote lust. The nudist position in discriminating between social versus sexual nudity.

The only real difference, in my opinion, between the church teaching and the nudist position is that the nudist position says that social nudity is worth the risk of attracting exhibitionists and voyeurs and the church position is that it is not.

izzynude

11-20-2002, 12:11 AM

Born in to non-practicing Methodists, raised to be tolerant, converted (with a rabbi) to Judaism, and am now a modern Orthodox Jew living in Israel.

TomorrowMan

11-20-2002, 01:03 AM

Deeply spiritual, but not the slightest bit religious. There's a big difference /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

11-20-2002, 02:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TomorrowMan:
... There's a big difference <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is?

Vin

11-20-2002, 06:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TomorrowMan:
Deeply spiritual, but not the slightest bit religious. There's a big difference /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is, indeed. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

11-20-2002, 10:04 AM

For example--The Pharasies in Jesus' day were very religious, but they weren't in the least bit spiritual. They were hypocrites who wanted people to look at them and be impressed by their self- righteousness. They condemned others in an effort to make themselves LOOK spiritual. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

TomorrowMan

11-20-2002, 04:49 PM

Good example, Jon-Marc.

Religion is a vehicle we can use to explore and practice our spirituality, but ultimately it is always up to the practitioner as to how much he/she gets out of the experience. After being a practicing Catholic, Protestant, Wiccan and Buddhist at different stages in my life, I found what I was really seeking was a far more direct spiritual experience than any religion could provide me with.

It sounds ironic, but shedding religion actually made me more spiritually aware! Most of all it taught me that each of us has to seek our own path. Whether that path be via religion or some other means, none of us are 100% right or wrong. We're just doing what we're here to do /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

izzynude

11-21-2002, 04:11 AM

I like what you said Tomorrowman about each finding out own path to spirituality. For many, organized religion provides a framework, tradition, "how to", and considerable resources in terms of writings, books, and comentary,etc. to help each of us to find that path to a higher spiritual level.
Of course, many orthodoxies also have their constituents that go through the motions maybe having forgotten the purpose behind it all.
Hopefully, our recent history will continue to stir up the questions that begin to reveal that path.

MWK

11-21-2002, 09:49 AM

I used to strongly identify with Southern Baptist. SB's think that any kind of work is works salvation, which isn't the case. Even Catholics don't always realize this and even they sometimes think they are working their way to heaven.

At any rate we have freedom of religion in the U.S. and wiccans are free to practice it. I can see lots of problems for wiccans in eternity, but I am not accountable to God for what wiccans practice, so I cannot judge them.

David77

11-21-2002, 12:14 PM

MWK,
Surprise! (At least I was very surprised when I read about it).

About two years ago the Roman Catholic Church and the Luthrans signed a document agreeing that man is not saved (gain salvation) by "Works" but by "Faith" alone. They came to this agreement after studying scripture and discussing this together for about 14 years.

However, unlike the other Luthrans, the very conservative Missouri Synod Luthrans would not sign, as they will never participate with any other churches.

Vin

11-21-2002, 03:49 PM

MWK,

I have to point out that it is not only Wiccans who take advantage of religious freedom, but Southern Baptists, Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Asatruar, etc. We all have the right to approach the divine in our own way, and all paths are equally valid.

I have to agree with you about one thing, though: I wouldn't mind have Southern Baptists as friends, provided we had something else in common. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BB,
Vin

TomorrowMan

11-21-2002, 07:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by izzynude:
For many, organized religion provides a framework, tradition, "how to", and considerable resources in terms of writings, books, and comentary,etc. to help each of us to find that path to a higher spiritual level. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very good point Izzy. In fact you've just caused me to consider that if I hadn't been exposed to religion in the past, I may never have discovered the value of spirituality. This little revelation you've sparked in me is a classic example of how spiritual lessons can come from anywhere! We just have to keep our hearts and minds open.

Thanks for the lesson /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

David77

11-22-2002, 01:57 AM

MWK,
The document of agreement, which I mentioned yesterday, was signed on 10-31-99 by the Lutherans and Catholics and is called "Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification". You may read about it on the web.

Trailscout

11-22-2002, 07:57 PM

MWK,

I must respectfully disagree with your contention that nudity cannot be defended scripturally.

Of course, we both disagree with those who say, "nudity is okay, so let's see if we can line up some Bible verses that give us permission to engage in mixed social nudity".

The scriptures teach that a certain amount of public nudity occured in everyday life in ancient Israel and that God did not object at all.

There are certain verses of the Torah part of the Bible that, if one were to read them literally, would forbid nudity in certain instances, but a little recognition of the context of the command will plainly show that what is actually forbidden is incestuous sexual relations. In the Jewish culture (as well as many others) undressing a person of the opposite sex was for the purpose of having sexual relations with the one you just undressed. Poor scholarship condemns the nudity that preceeded the fornication, when it was the fornication itself that God objected to. Neither does the Bible teach that public nudity generally leads to sin. The Bible is replete with examples of innocent nudity and even of a case where God commanded nudity of a prophet in order to dramatize the prophecy that unrepentent people would be led away from their homes as naked captive slaves.

Outside of the tropics, the weather makes clothes a necessity at times. To lack them during those times is a tragedy and a sign of poverty.
Some scriptural references speak negatively of nudity, but it was only in the context of physical or spiritual poverty.

Thorough exegesis of Bible verses relating to nudity exists on the Web, so I will limit my discussion for now.

Beyond the verses that seem to condemn all nudity, but actually do not, an overview of Biblical principles can guide us as to how to best show the love of God by being nude or clothed depending on the sensibilities of those we are with.

I do believe that it is possible to establish that God's original intent was for humanity to live life in the nude. It is not too hard to show that mankind's fall from grace did not mean that clothes were suddenly necessary for decency. To the amazement of some, I would even contend that God still prefers us to be nude social conditions and weather permitting.

11-23-2002, 03:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JohnDreamwhistle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by serpes:
I was raised a Roman Catholic and the Church looks gravely at nudity as they teach after the fall of Adam and Eve, they looked at their own bodies shamefully and clothing began. Man and Woman should only be naked to each other within the bounds of marriage and to no other public even their doctors. Even a parent should respect the privacy of a child within their own family.

How can we reconcile the conservative Catholic philosophy with the healthy attitude of INS toward nudity? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

11-23-2002, 03:34 AM

If your Catholic Church teaches and promotes such a position how does it reconcile its position with the position stated by Pope John Paul II. We use his statement frequentlly on NaturistChristian@yahoogroups.com

Bill Martin, Venice, FL

Trailscout

11-23-2002, 06:58 AM

Dear Friend,

You skimmed over one noteworthy point about privacy for children.

As I grew up, I felt an increasing need for privacy. But it was primarily the need for private time in a room of my own. I began closing doors, not to physically hide from my family, but because I wanted a quiet place to meditate. I think this sentiment is motivated by a developing sense of individuality, not body shame.

If I am blessed with children I will try my best to raise them to feel comfortable and open about their bodies. If outside influences cause them to feel body shame, I will not force them to be nude, but gently suggest that their bodies need not look like an athlete's, a fashion model or film star, that my children will be loved for their inner self. And I believe a parent should practice household nudity, setting a quiet example, but still show respect for a child's feelings and personal space.

nudeboots

11-23-2002, 11:15 AM

I was born and raised Catholic but I consiter myself a pagan or a Unitarian as I believe all religions have a similar basis that gets perverted by man. By the way my first encounter with large scale nudity was a painting in Mother Superior's office of Heaven and Hell. Heaven was set on a white cloud with a group of men sitting around the central figure of Jesus, all dressed in robes. Hell was a scene of fire and nude bodies (mostly women) being tormented by demons. In the Church across the street from the school there was another painting featuring nudity, this time it was a group of Jesuit missionaries being burned at the stake nude by Indians. So my relationship to the church and nudity is very negative. The pegan religions, like wiccan, embrace the human form with all its faults and beauty so now I am drawn towards these religions.

BillyD

11-23-2002, 05:55 PM

My religion (SDA) has been the incubator of my spiritual growth. I am thankful for it and continue to appreciate the fellowship and nurture I find there. I do not think, however, that there would be "corporate approval" for my nudism, and so it is part of my private life. Only my family and a couple of friends know. I don't believe my Creator has trouble with my nudity.

SapporoRob

11-23-2002, 09:08 PM

I was raised Baptist and now attend a largely nondenominational church. I am firmly in the evangelical Christian camp and would like to here from fellow Christian naturists to here about both their naturism and their faith.

Rob

JakeNY

12-05-2002, 10:02 AM

Hi Everyone!
I am new to this site. I have a question?
To the Christians who are Baptist, UPC, non-Dominal when you go to a nudist camp are you with unbelivers?
Thanks

luvnaturism

12-05-2002, 11:41 AM

The answer to JakeNY's question is "Yes," but I'm not sure what the question is. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Jake wants to know if there are other Christians there with me, the answer is yes. And not just casual Christians, but devout men and women who are deeply committed to and involved in their churches. It's not uncommon to meet a pastor.

If Jake wants to know if there are people there who are not Christians, the answer is yes. The non-Christians tend to be fully as delightful and enjoyable as the Christians. Their presence is a plus for me.

I've never figured out how a Christian would fulfill the obligation to share the faith without associating with those who aren't there yet. And why would a non-Christian care to join in with people who won't even associate with him or her in the first place? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Snoboy

12-06-2002, 10:53 AM

I am a Methodist and sing in the choir of my church. I am not ashamed of my nudism but I do keep that separate from my church family to keep things simple. I am quite verbal and public about my nudism/naturism at the University where I attend full-time. Many of my classmates think it is cool. I hope and pray to win some over to naturism by next summer in Alaska.

Snoboy /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

12-06-2002, 11:13 AM

Snoboy ....I admire your ability for openess at the university.You sound like a good example for getting more young people to enjoy the freedom of naturism. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frank R

12-07-2002, 08:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JakeNY:
To the Christians who are Baptist, UPC, non-Dominal when you go to a nudist camp are you with unbelivers?
Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll go one step better than that. When I go to church, I am with unbelivers. When I go to work, I am with unbelivers. When I go to the mall, I am with unbelivers. Why would it be any different at a nudist resort?

nudistwheelchair

12-07-2002, 11:30 AM

Even Jesus was with non-believer but he still cared for them and told them they had a choce.

12-07-2002, 12:00 PM

I don't understand the point of Jake's question. As was stated, we are with unbelievers wherever we go. It's impossible for believers to live in this world without being around unbelievers. In fact, I used to be one of those unbelievers.

I've gotten very discouraged and disalusioned with my fellow believers. It's unfortunate, but I often find unbelievers to be much nicer people, and certainly less judgemental. It took me a great deal of my life to learn that I'm not the judge, God is. Many believers haven't learned that yet.

I haven't ceased being a believer or a Christian, but I may consider changing denominations. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Trailscout

12-08-2002, 07:29 AM

In general, a Christian should try to meet people where they are, imitating the behavior of Jesus when he walked the Earth.

However, I can understand the wisdom of avoiding places that are given over to evil. I have some friends who left a nudist resort where the women in their families were continually pestered for sex. Management was turning a blind eye to the harassment and turning a deaf ear to my friends' pleas for relief. They found another resort just up the road that did not have such problems.

Most nudist resorts have both good management and a sense of community and shared responsibility that makes nudist resorts among the safest and friendliest places around to take a family. AANR is not perfect, but it does work to keep individual member resorts accountable for their behavior.

I have not pushed my faith on anyone, but I found quite a few people in nudist resorts who were genuinely interested in hearing about my Christian faith. Nudists tend to be very friendly approachable folks.

I have also met Wiccans and a strident atheist at a nudist resort, but we parted as friends.

Going to nudist resorts has been a blessing.

12-13-2002, 10:41 AM

In answer to the general question about religion I would consider myself a Buddhist. It isn't that straightforward with Buddhism because the philosophy generally veers away from 'labels' as they tend it cause attachment to identity and they are also divisive.

I suppose the one thing I am attached to is my clothing. Being a 'confirmed' textile, I'm not into getting my kit off - at least not in the presence of other people!

Stu /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Cover yourself up at once! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

kiskatinawbares

12-13-2002, 08:56 PM

My wife and I and our children are Seventh-day Adventists and have been our whole lives.

In regards to some other posts that we have read in the forum about our denomination and naturism, we have found that people have been fairly accepting. Either they shrug and say "each to his own" or they actually like the idea.

FRMJL

12-13-2002, 09:26 PM

I am a Roman Catholic Christian. The icon used for the Religion section of this forum is a depiction of Michelangelo's painting in the Sistine Chapel at the Vatican.

Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body provides an excellent understanding of the Catholic Christian view of the human body.

Naturist4Christ

12-15-2002, 01:38 PM

nakednudes

12-16-2002, 05:13 AM

ditto my friend also a baptist anf there are 4 other naturists in our church

Nytro

12-20-2002, 09:45 AM

I see other Baptists here, but it looks like I am the only "regular Baptist". A regular Baptist church is an independent Baptist church, that is a Bible preaching and teaching Baptist church, with no hierarchy outside of the local church.

I accepted Christ as my Savior at the age of 9. I believe in a holy creator, the 6 day creation, Jesus's gift of salvation through faith, and his future return.

I also believe that, as the Bible says, we were created in his (God's) image, and since he created our bodies, and they were good enough for him, they are good enough for me. I have no problem enjoying what the Lord has given me, inside the comfort of my house, or outside in God's creation!

12-20-2002, 10:38 PM

Nytro, You're not the only "regular Baptist" her at all. Meet another one. I won't reiterate all you said, but I agree with all of it, except that we are "saved by grace through faith", Eph. 2:8. Without God's grace our faith would be in vain. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Nytro

12-23-2002, 11:37 AM

Jon-marc,
I stand corrected about "saved by grace through faith"! I need to re-read my post's!

I am glad to see that I am not the only RB'er here!

Nytro

wannabenaked2001

01-16-2003, 08:28 AM

I have found all the replies to my question very interesting. I see that most of the contributors to this post are of Christian faith of various denominations. Also I have seen replies from a few Pagans of different sorts and one Buddist, as well as a few people who are too eclectic to be put into any particular category (at least by me).

Do we have any one of the Jewish or Islamic faiths here?

Also, I see that Christians can be broken down to various denominations like Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, and a wide range of Baptists, just to name a few. What, if any, are the different denominations of Pagans? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Vin

01-16-2003, 01:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
What, if any, are the different denominations of Pagans? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whew! That's a big question. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

First, it's more accurate to think of the different Pagan paths as totally different religions, rather than denominations of one faith. Christianity comes in a variety of flavors (denominations) that differ on the details of doctrine, but mostly agree on the broad strokes. Paganism is more an umbrella terms that catches dozens of completely different religions, each with its own concept of divinity, view on the afterlife, belief in whether psychic phenomena (sometimes called the Craft) exist and how to use it, structure of rituals, required nudity during worship,... the list goes on.

Probably the best-known Pagan faith is Wicca, which comes in almost as many denominations (traditions) as Christianity. Then there's is Asatru (Nordic Reconstructionism), Hellenismos (Greek Recon), Druidry (Celtic Recon),.... Again, the list goes on.

A few good sites for more info:
About's Pagan/Wiccan site (http://paganwiccan.about.com) (heavily Wicca-focused, but many links to other paths)
Witches' Voice (http://www.witchvox.com) (again, heavily Wiccan)
Beliefnet (http://www.beliefnet.com)

There are plenty more. A Google search for "pagan" would probably turn up some. Or anyone here who's Pagan can probably add to the list (especially non-Wiccans, since I'm less familiar with those paths).

Good luck!
Vin

Rik

01-16-2003, 02:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
Paganism is more an umbrella terms that catches dozens of completely different religions, each with its own concept of divinity, view on the afterlife....etc <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So which one's right?

Rik

Vin

01-16-2003, 05:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
Paganism is more an umbrella terms that catches dozens of completely different religions, each with its own concept of divinity, view on the afterlife....etc <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So which one's right?

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure I understand the question.

GAR

01-16-2003, 08:31 PM

which Christian faith is right? It is the same with the Pagan faith's. It depends on the person you ask? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

01-16-2003, 08:41 PM

Everyone is sure that their beliefs are the right ones whatever they may be (I KNOW mine are. Of course, I could be wrong). As stated--it depends on who you ask. I've learned that most people here don't want to read what I have to say on that subject--so I'm keeping quiet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

01-16-2003, 10:15 PM

Rik

01-17-2003, 01:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
Me:So which one's right?
You:I'm not sure I understand the question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry Vin, it was supposed to be ironic humor - guess I failed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif . What I was getting at is that many devoutly religious people seem to claim that their brand of religion represents the truth (usually spelt TRUTH /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) which to me implies that they believe all the others to be false for surely there can be only one version of the truth. I thought perhaps that paganism might be different but when you talked about different views on divinity etc it struck me as yet another load of versions of the truth - hence my question "which of the many versions of paganism is right?".

Rik

Vin

01-17-2003, 06:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Sorry Vin, it was supposed to be ironic humor - guess I failed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif . What I was getting at is that many devoutly religious people seem to claim that their brand of religion represents the truth (usually spelt TRUTH /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) which to me implies that they believe all the others to be false for surely there can be only one version of the truth. I thought perhaps that paganism might be different but when you talked about different views on divinity etc it struck me as yet another load of versions of the truth - hence my question "which of the many versions of paganism is right?".

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Rik,

NOW I get it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pagans _tend_ to believe that everyone can be right, that there is no ONE TRUE WAY. It sometimes reminds me of quantum mechanics, where a subatomic particle can simultaneously occupy more than one location. The fact that this appears self-contradictory does not change the fact that it's real. Most Pagans think that the universe is big enough for all of us to be right. The metaphor that makes the most sense to me is a mountain with many paths. They all lead to the top, and each is different from all the others. But they all go to the same place, without any one being more right. And some people change paths along the way without invalidating what they've done before.

So, the short answer: each individual chooses or constructs the path that's best for him/her, but doesn't claim that it's the only path for everyone.

There, that should be clear as mud.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vin

wannabenaked2001

01-17-2003, 06:31 AM

My understanding of various religions (at least the three largest Christianity, Judism, and Islamic) is that each teaches tollerance of others. Maybe instead of claiming, for example, "The Catholic Church is the RIGHT church!", we could say, again for example "The Catholic church is the right church for ME!"

I also understand that most religions, if not all seek converts. Guess what???? So do nudist. But I don't think any of us feel we have the right to force nudism on others. As nudists we seek acceptance of others, is this too much/not enough to ask of others reguarding our religious beliefs?

If a textile co-worker just discovered you are a nudists, would you rather he/she ask you questions about nudism, or simply pass judgment on you and see you as some sort of a deviant?

The same question is true with religion! Ask questions, and try to understand the religion/lifestyle/individual. Acceptance does not mean you are "joining up"! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

florida-david

01-17-2003, 06:46 AM

hello, i guess i will be the lone partial jew, actually i consider myself a "bad jew" in that i really couldn't care less one way or the other. lots of religious people tend to "stick with the clan" in a self-preservation sort of mentality. i like people not based on their religion, car, jewelry, clothes, etc. but more on their actions and beliefs. i don't believe that we can be mean to everyone our whole life and be "saved" 5 seconds prior to death. that is an outdated philosophy. i had a friend in college and we were having a religious debate (he being christian), and he said that he felt bad for me since i would not be "saved" due to my beliefs. i said he was wacked and we should not be hanging out together since i was "unsavable" and than i went home. we never spoke about religion again and stayed good friends.

if anything, i am a jewish, existentialist, Taoist, Pagan, Wiccan mixed mutt with a bit of Atheist thrown in. Now you see why i consider myself a bad jew. i think i should have been an indian and worshipped the land. my wife is christian (bad christian as well) so we celebrate all holidays (christian/jewish). my sister is wiccan and pagan (goddess), so we celebrate those with her when possible. all religions seem to celebrate the same ideas, just follow the teachings of the earth and you will see how the holidays all seem to align (equinoxes, harvests, full moons). i just don't believe in the "interpretted book" and all the organized brainwashing. if it makes you 'whole' to be part of an organized religion, than more power to you. i still won't like you if you are mean, torture animals, kill people, rape children, drive selfishly, etc, etc. (these ideas are from the front page of the newspaper, why does society dwell on bad thoughts??)

wannabenaked2001

01-17-2003, 06:56 AM

Florida-Dave,

Yeah! That's what I'm talkin bout!

Thanks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rik

01-17-2003, 07:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
The metaphor that makes the most sense to me is a mountain with many paths. They all lead to the top, and each is different from all the others. But they all go to the same place, without any one being more right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK Vin, I understand that but, to continue your mountain metaphor, all the different paths lead ultimately to a single mountain top which sort of suggests that there is an ultimate single 'truth' shared by everyone. If so, do Pagans share that truth with Christians and do Christians share that truth with Muslims etc?

Rik

Vin

01-17-2003, 08:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
OK Vin, I understand that but, to continue your mountain metaphor, all the different paths lead ultimately to a single mountain top which sort of suggests that there is an ultimate single 'truth' shared by everyone. If so, do Pagans share that truth with Christians and do Christians share that truth with Muslims etc? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From the point of view of most Pagans, I think yes. There's only one universe, and the ultimate goal is to understand it, to be spiritually fulfilled. How you get there is immaterial.

Now that I think about it, it may be more fair to say that the mountaintop represents understanding, and the paths represent truths.

I know that those of some other faiths hold other ideas on this subject. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

01-17-2003, 02:01 PM

Vin,

So Pagans maintain that there are many truths all of which can lead to a single understanding. Or put another way, Pagans are open to the concept of different truths rather than different versions of the same truth (which of course is illogical). Ok I can accept that.

Presumably Pagans acknowledge that other non-pagans can also have their own truths (e.g. those of Christianty or Islam etc) and thus have no issue with the fact that such religions are very different from Paganism.

But Christians often talk about "the truth" (in the singular) so do Pagans accept that Christianity can lay claim to "the truth" when "the truth" must surely be false for Pagans believe there are many truths: not just one.

If not then surely they must reject Christianity as a valid belief system.

Or perhaps Pagans are really saying "What the hell - you get on with your lives and we'll get on with ours".

Confused? Me too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

Vin

01-17-2003, 03:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Vin,

So Pagans maintain that there are many truths all of which can lead to a single understanding. Or put another way, Pagans are open to the concept of different truths rather than different versions of the same truth (which of course is illogical). Ok I can accept that.

Presumably Pagans acknowledge that other non-pagans can also have their own truths (e.g. those of Christianty or Islam etc) and thus have no issue with the fact that such religions are very different from Paganism.

But Christians often talk about "the truth" (in the singular) so do Pagans accept that Christianity can lay claim to "the truth" when "the truth" must surely be false for Pagans believe there are many truths: not just one.

If not then surely they must reject Christianity as a valid belief system.

Or perhaps Pagans are really saying "What the hell - you get on with your lives and we'll get on with ours".

Confused? Me too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Rik,

Yes, most Pagans believe that there are many truths, all of which lead to understanding. And I'm not sure it's any more illogical to believe that there are different versions of the same truth than to acknowledge that there can be differing valid viewpoints on a given topic.

For example, you're from the UK, right? How do your history texts present the war fought in North America beginning in 1776 or so between England and her American colonies? If I recall correctly, it's generally presented as a civil war. From the US perspective, it was a struggle for independence. Both are true, yet at least somewhat contradictory.

So to answer you question about Christianity laying claim to "the truth," no, Pagan's don't generally recognize that as a valid claim. It is A truth, certainly, but not THE truth. The fact that Christians don't generally return the favor is a bit annoying, but that doesn't invalidate their path. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How's that?
Vin

HansM

01-17-2003, 05:39 PM

Hello Everyone,

I am new here and this is my first post. Once again I just wanted to read, but this topic makes me post. My first love is my faith Roman Catholic and second is cloths freedom.

David 77 You stated:
"About two years ago the Roman Catholic Church and the Luthrans signed a document agreeing that man is not saved (gain salvation) by "Works" but by "Faith" alone. They came to this agreement after studying scripture and discussing this together for about 14 years."
Catholics do not believe in faith alone. We believe that it is through both works and faith working together. One without the other will not lead to sactifying grace.

Jon-Mark "It's unfortunate, but I often find unbelievers to be much nicer people, and certainly less judgemental."
I could not agree more. I made a mistake, my wife and I, went to Hedonism II for our first nude trip, but I still found goodness there. I often say I saw a lot more good there than I do in many church congregations. People were very friendly and respectful, I find a lot of hate in many Christian churches.

Find a church community that resembles what you want, it does not really matter the denomination that much. I converted to Catholicism in 1996 from the United Chruch of Christ. I do believe it makes a difference, but not that much.

The more that I study about nakedness and faith, I find that God is not just nuetral about nakedness, he wants us to be naked as much as possible. The Lord's Prayer tells us that "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" Does anyone think that we will be wearing cloths in Heaven? I certainly don't and if his will is that we act on earth as in Heaven, that his desire is for us to be naked, without shame.

We have just had a bit of a scandle in our little town (see my post in the legal section). It appears (I had known for a couple of years) that a local nudist club uses our Rec Center for their witner swims. Someone just complained and it hit our local hometown (weekly) paper.

My wife asked our priest (I feel I must say at this point that I am also discerning on becoming a Deacon and in Theology classes) if he had read the article, he said that he hadn't. Well they proceded to discuss the issue. He said that he has been researching non-sexual social nudism and doesn't see anything wrong with. She actually told him that I believed in nudism, I wish she had left that up to me to tell him, but he was not phased by that.

Wow, I cannot believe this. I have been sweeting over this for the past year. I have not found one person yet that has reacted negativly. In fact one person says that they want to join me, but their spouse is dead set against it.

Those are my views.

Shalom (peace) in Christ,
HansM

wannabenaked2001

01-17-2003, 06:09 PM

Welcome HansM!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

David77

01-17-2003, 07:48 PM

No one has a monopoly on "the truth" of the great questions and mysteries of the universe. I suppose that each person of whatever religion can have, or has, reverence or awe for what he sees as the highest, ultimate values in life. No one has complete insight into life, but merely partial, and hopefully is always on the brink of new insights and understand of what he sees as reality (truth?) and his spiritual appreciation deepens. Thus dogma and one rigid concept of "Truth", hopefully evaporates and one uses his own personal resources for his religious development. The summary below, which is in part borrowed and condensed, explains the means to accomplish this journey.

Religious pluralism can enrich lives and ennoble faith and inspire a deepening of understanding and expand our vision. Wisdom from the world's religions (not just one religion) can inspire us in our ethical and spiritual life. The words and deeds of prophetic women and men can challenge us to confront power and structures of evil and justice, and confront compassion and transforming power of love.

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, is affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of, and an openness to, the forces which create and uphold life. Also, guidance of reason and the results of science can assist our living in harmony with the rythms of nature and help deeper our appreciation and our concept of ultimate reality and our understanding of what we see of our "truth" or reality in our personal changing time and place.

wannabenaked2001

01-17-2003, 08:05 PM

David77,

I thought I already said that! Just kidding,
LOL

Actually, I wish I had said that, and I agree compleatly. I know it won't happen in my lifetime, but wouldn't it be great if all the belief systems of the world were to come together to form a single, world wide belief system or religion, and everyone accepted it??

But then, what would we have?????? World Peace??

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

David77

01-17-2003, 08:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
I know it won't happen in my lifetime, but wouldn't it be great if all the belief systems of the world were to come together to form a single, world wide belief system or religion, and everyone accepted it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WBN,
If everyone believed uniformly, it would prove that they are not thinking for themselves. Instead, each should be encouraged to use their own intellect, and their knowledge from, for example, reading and learning from their life experiences, and use their own individual insights to develope their own spirituality with out influence from, as you call it, a "single, world wide belief system or religion, and everyone accepted it".

For example, my own liberal church does not believe in prosalitizing and thus has no missioneries. Instead, it fosters each individuals developing or searching for himself. It has no creed or dogma and respects each others differing thought, so long as they behave in the spirit of love. I believe in independence and not a world wide belief system.

Rik

01-18-2003, 04:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
How's that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So it's live and let live. Sounds good to me.

Rik

Vin

01-18-2003, 07:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
How's that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So it's live and let live. Sounds good to me.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Obviously, it works for me, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The challenge, sometimes, is being actively accepting of others, rather than passively saying "You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone, and we'll pretend that our differences don't exist." Being one who occasionally enjoys a lively debate, it's hard for me to know when just to accept something and when to compare viewpoints.

Bright Blessings,
Vin

Vin

01-18-2003, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
David77,

Actually, I wish I had said that, and I agree compleatly. I know it won't happen in my lifetime, but wouldn't it be great if all the belief systems of the world were to come together to form a single, world wide belief system or religion, and everyone accepted it?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wish I'd said it, too.

I don't care if there's one system that everyone believes. Frankly, and perhaps paradoxically, I think there's real strength in the multiplicity of viewpoints we have on spirituality. We can always learn from each other, even from those with whom we disagree. But worldwide acceptance and tolerance would be nice.

Maybe it won't happen in this lifetime, but there's always the next one, or the one after that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wannabenaked2001

01-18-2003, 07:54 AM

David77,

I must agree with your views of individual thought. I never ment that anyone should stop thinking for him/her self (actually, maybe not enough people think for them selves now). And we certainly don't need another Jim Jones who's followers were most certainly not thinking for them selves!

I simply don't understand why some people feel they need to kill (or other wise attack) others for having different spiritual beliefs.

Is there really any such thing as a "Holy War"? The two words just don't go together!

I do think that the world's belief systems and all of the people of the world should try to find what they/we all have in common, and work together from there. You are right (and I stand corrected) in that a single belief system would detract from what makes each culture unique. The world would be a pretty boring place! But wouldn't it be great if we could learn to appreciate those differances instead of fear and despise them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rik

01-18-2003, 08:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
I simply don't understand why some people feel they need to kill (or other wise attack) others for having different spiritual beliefs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe it's part of their belief system and should therefore be respected.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Rik

Vin

01-18-2003, 11:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Maybe it's part of their belief system and should therefore be respected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe it is and should be. They can believe whatever they want, no matter how reprehensible it may be to anyone (or everyone) else. They are not, however, free to act on it. That's a very different thing.

Vin

Rik

01-18-2003, 11:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
They can believe whatever they want, no matter how reprehensible it may be to anyone (or everyone) else. They are not, however, free to act on it. That's a very different thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm! Setting aside legal and cultural issues for a moment why should they not be free to act on it? If my "belief system" is that those who disagree with me should be killed and your "belief system" is that everbody else's "belief system" should be respected then you should have no objection to me killing you unless of course your "belief system" is really that you will respect all other "belief systems" except those which you choose not to respect.

What a strange world we live in. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

David77

01-18-2003, 12:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
"I do think that the world's belief systems and all of the people of the world should try to find what they/we all have in common, and work together from there".
-and -
"But wouldn't it be great if we could learn to appreciate those differances instead of fear and despise them". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wannabenaked,
There is a international group of many world religions that promotes what you are referring to. It is called "Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions". You are the type of great person who would enjoy attending their next world wide meeting in Barcelona Spain in 2004. Hope you sigh up soon and plan to attend. You can read about the philosophy and work of this organization at;
http://www.cpwr.org/

Clicking on the days listed on the right hand side of the main web page tells of the interesting speakers and their thoughts for each day during their last world-wide meeting.

Speaking of inter-religious group, a Muslim family invited me for Thanksgiving dinner in November 2002 since I have no relatives in this state to go to. The head of this family is from Egypt and is a medical doctor. There were about 20 persons present and about half of the crowd were Muslim and the rest were Chritians plus two of us were more or less of the Naturalistic Humanist philosophy.

It was also the season of Ramadon, so we had our Thanksgiving meal after the sun went down. We had a great time together.

Your post also suggests to me a world document which I revere, but which many would say is not a religious document, but to me, at least, it ranks along side the great religious documents, as religion deals with life. Elenor Roosevelt, one of my social actionist heros, worked tirelessly for its creation. It may not be perfect in scope, but we all know it as the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights. It is good reading, at;

http://www.un.org/rights/50/decla.htm

Vin

01-18-2003, 01:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
If my "belief system" is that those who disagree with me should be killed and your "belief system" is that everbody else's "belief system" should be respected then you should have no objection to me killing you unless of course your "belief system" is really that you will respect all other "belief systems" except those which you choose not to respect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not at all. Belief systems are a part of society; they do not supercede it. Society, as an organism, has a self-preservation instinct. It cannot allow wanton killing without risking self-destruction, therefore that behavior is (usually) prohibited. Each individual can believe whatever he wants, and I fully respect his right to do so. He may not, however, act on those beliefs simply because he holds them and we respect his right to hold them.

Think about it: most of us here hold a belief that there is nothing wrong with nudity. Yet we don't (well, most of us) go about in the general public while nude. Why? It's the same thing. We have a right to our beliefs, but not the right to act on them simply because we hold them.

Most Wiccans (not necessarily most Pagans) hold a philosophy that states, in part, you can do whatever you want so long as it doesn't harm anyone. (There is an allowance for self-defense in most versions). So, you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't give you the right to harm anyone. Killing someone involves harming them, ergo it's ethically not allowed.

Rik

01-18-2003, 02:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
Society, as an organism, has a self-preservation instinct. It cannot allow wanton killing without risking self-destruction, therefore that behavior is (usually) prohibited. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Vin, thanks for the repsonse. I always enjoy reading you posts.

Given what you said above, am I alone in thinking that society, as an organism, is set on a path of self-destruction rather than self-preservation?

We may have different ideas about 'society' but to me society is made up of individuals and groups of individuals (such as religions, countries etc) i.e. the human race. Humans kill more of their own kind than any other mammal - directly and indirectly - and what stops the wanton killing you refer to are, to some extent, national and international laws. So given that some individuals (and groups)do kill, and more would if wasn't illegal, it doesn't seem to me that the desire to preserve society is inherent in the individual (or group): rather it is the desire to preserve the individual (or group) which is inherent.

If on the other hand the desire to preserve the species was inherent in indiviuals (or groups) as you suggest, then there would be no need for laws to prevent killing for any such killing would only be done for the benefit of the species as a whole. Indeed if you consider the history of man, the legal bar to wanton killing has only existed relatively recently yet man has become the second most successful mammal on earth (after the rat of course!).

You could also argue I suppose that the world is a very over populated place and with current birth rates what they are and the over exploitation of natural resources the future looks rather bleak. Perhaps wanton killing is now necessary to protect the species as a whole in which case artificial laws against killing, based on intellect rather than biological necessity, are helping to destroy the very thing they are trying to protect.

I'm really just thinking aloud as I write this so I'm sure you can shoot me down in flames. In fact please do (but don't kill me) because this looks like a reason to go to war. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Rik

Vin

01-18-2003, 04:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Given what you said above, am I alone in thinking that society, as an organism, is set on a path of self-destruction rather than self-preservation?

We may have different ideas about 'society' but to me society is made up of individuals and groups of individuals (such as religions, countries etc) i.e. the human race. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Rik,

This is turning into quite a socio-religio-politcal examination of the human condition. I'm having fun, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think we're using about the same definition of "society" here. And I agree that individuals don't have any instinct to preserve the species. They do, however, have an individual survival instinct, and when they come together in a society, that instinct is transferred and becomes a characteristic of the society they form. Whether our current one is on a self-destructive path, I don't know. I tend to think that we're going through another painful skinned knee, but we'll be okay in the end.

And I'm not sure the legal bar to wanton killing within any given local society is new. We've always acknowledged that it's in everyone's best interests to prevent murder. It is, however, only recently that we've extended that consideration to a global perspective and applied to "others."

As for the need to "cull the herd," I'm not sure I can argue against it. However, I don't think wanton killing (either locally via murder or planet-wide via war) is the best tool to do it. There are others that are more effective; well-run national birth control campaigns come to mind.

If we do get totally out of hand, though, I'm certain we'll get reined in, either through evolution or by the planet herself shaking us off. (Now I suddenly see us as flies on a horse's bum. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Vin

nakedinsandiego

01-18-2003, 06:33 PM

Hi,

I identify myself just as Christian, and I currently attened a Baptist church. I was raised in the Christian Churchs/Church of Christ.

RIVERRAT

01-19-2003, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
I have noticed that many people identify themselves as Christians, but I also know there are many faiths that fall under this category, and many more that do not. Just curious, what religion are you? I thought about making this question a poll, but I am sure I would manage to leave many faiths out, as there are so many. I am Roman Catholic.

Jim /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Jim, I to am a Catholic, why does faith have anything to do with being nude, Peter was naked on his boat a few feet from shore when Jesus was cominng to see them, he put his clothes on, David was bringing the Arc of the covenant back to Jeruselem, he was celebrating naked, the profits when in profetic ways, they were naked, if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned we would all be naked as GOD intended. Our bodies as GOD has given us are not evil, they are beautiful, GOD, gave us this for ,yes we must cover up when in public , but we are an image of the creater, even mister ANGELO who painted the Sistine chaple painted GOD and Adam his creatian nude. We are GOD's creatian we were nude, we are not wrong to be nude now?? Be as GOD has made us when possible, and cover up when needed.

wannabenaked2001

01-20-2003, 06:09 AM

Hey RiverRat,

In your post above you wrote " why does faith have anything to do with being nude, ".

Many points have been made to justify (or not) nudity thru religous writings. But to answer your question, it is simply this: One of the primary issues some people have with nudism is religion/faith. By addressing these issues, we hope to feel better about ourselves and others, as well as to help textiles accept, if not join, our way of life.

I also hope we will be able to better understand the values of other faiths, stop stereo typing, and discover more things we may have in common.

To me nudism/naturism is about more than "Body Acceptance". It is also about acceptance, respect and tollerance of other human beings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sunaddicted

01-23-2003, 04:21 AM

I am a Jewish nudist and consider myself a good Jew as opposed to Florida-David, I attend services and love my faith. There is a group of us on line. I believe that all of us should get along and that to each his own. Man was created in the image of God "B'Tsalem " so I have never been ashamed of being naked and consider the human body to be beautiful.

I do not agree that all religions preach love and peace for one another. Unfortunately more people have been killed in the name of religion than been saved.

Vin

01-23-2003, 05:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sunaddicted:
I do not agree that all religions preach love and peace for one another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think most of them PREACH some version of this. Unfortunately, not so many people PRACTICE it. As you say, more people have been killed in the name of religion than just about any other cause.

NoodJuggler

01-27-2003, 07:49 AM

In reply to HansM and some others. "Faith without Works is Dead" James 2:26 That is for the one that believes the bible is the word of God and if that person believes in a God. You can have faith without works, but you cannot have works without faith, Works produce greater faith, take away the works and you lose the Faith, a mans faith is shown by his works...Keep the Faith. Show Me the Works...Bye..Keith /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sorry forgot..Faith has nothing to do with Nudity. You can be nude or fully clothed and have faith.
http://www.NaturalandNude.com/NaturalandNude.gif

Croydon

01-28-2003, 05:45 AM

I have always been someone who has a distaste for organized religion. Growing up, my mother forced church and religion down my throat thus my only way to rebel against it all was to turn against religions.

I grew up catholic but my mother participated in the protestant religion and I must say that from my observations of many religions including protestant, it is all about control. The congregation have no clue that they are being controlled. The rules and restraints placed on church goers yells out CONTROL. For example, in my mom's pentecostal church, women may not wear phants, jewlry or make up. I can go on and on and on.

I honestly believe that many (not all) religions, denominationsm, churches are filled with a bunch of hypocrites. Many say so much yet fail to practice what they preach.

I think that in a decade or two, religion will not be strong as it is today because so many young adults are moving away from religion ideologies and the bible. A lot are rebelling against religion.

gamblefish

01-30-2003, 01:36 PM

Original post by Rik,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Given what you said above, am I alone in thinking that society, as an organism, is set on a path of self-destruction rather than self-preservation?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are not alone, Rik. Although I know we both have very different ideas about God, I also believe that humanity is on a downward spiral toward destruction.

I believe that as soon as Adam sinned, the "death" of the earth and everything on it began. You can almost draw an analogy between the earth and a person. As soon as you are born, you start dying. In like manner, as soon as Adam sinned, the earth started dying, and now we are in the twilight of our years...

I don't mean to sound all "gloom and doom", but you have to admit, matters here on earth are not going along as well as we would like...

01-30-2003, 10:35 PM

Gamblefish.....Down with the doom and gloom....Think positive!!!!!!After birth we have our great lives...A Time To Live and a time to die ...and then we will have eternal peace and happiness with our Savior Jesus in that great naturist resort above. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jochanaan

02-01-2003, 05:42 PM

Hi, everyone! Many interesting posts, and no offensive ones.

I was lucky. My upbringing encouraged me to be Christian but to think for myself, and my denomination, the Seventh Day Baptists, are mostly free from being controlled or the desire to control. Also, I was never taught nakedness was sinful, only that it was inappropriate in many situations; and it has not been hard for me to revise my thinking about which situations are appropriate.

There is a big difference between acceptance (really an aspect of love) and approval. We can accept a person, as a person, while disapproving his actions or beliefs. I can accept a racist as a worthy person, for all persons are worthy, while rejecting his values as worthless. I can be friends with a reckless driver while disapproving his recklessness. Jesus set the example by saying to the woman caught in adultery, "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more."

But this is something a majority cannot understand. So many people insist that to disapprove their beliefs is to reject them as people. And so many Christians get caught in unloving condemnations rather than loving rebukes. It's enough to drive me to my knees!

I wish I could say to all of you, out loud, with all the passion in my voice: "Even though I disagree with your beliefs or actions, I accept you." I hope my writing conveys my acceptance.

gamblefish

02-02-2003, 03:59 AM

Hello Jochanaan,

Excellent post! Particularly like your statement:

"So many people insist that to disapprove their beliefs is to reject them as people. And so many Christians get caught in unloving condemnations rather than loving rebukes. It's enough to drive me to my knees!"

Couldn't agree more and I thought you conveyed your message (and acceptence) very well.

nudist_in_Tn

02-02-2003, 09:16 AM

Im a Christian a Methodist in fact, I enjoy being nude as much as possible and I do not associate my nudity with anything sexual, I was allowed to play outside naked as a child and to me nudity is as normal and acceptable as breathing, I do so feel sorry however for those who have had other peoples beliefs thrust on them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

scottnc

02-08-2003, 08:58 PM

I was raised a Mormon & was very active in the church till my 30s. I attend no church now & don't consider myself to be spiritual, but I pray daily. I'm often invited by friends to attend their church but politely decline. I think religion is a personal matter between God & me. I think God expects me to be honest, considerate, & charitable, but I don't think he expects me to try to influence the beliefs of others.

Christian Bare

02-09-2003, 12:07 PM

Church of the Nazarene as far as denomination... But following Christ is the main point...

02-09-2003, 12:16 PM

Christian Bare,

Very true. I'm a Christian first and foremost--then a nudist. There is no conflict in the two, but my Christian beliefs come first. Denomination isn't the important thing. What we do about Jesus Christ is. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Croydon

02-09-2003, 06:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scottnc:
I was raised a Mormon & was very active in the church till my 30s. I attend no church now & don't consider myself to be spiritual, but I pray daily. I'm often invited by friends to attend their church but politely decline. I think religion is a personal matter between God & me. I think God expects me to be honest, considerate, & charitable, but I don't think he expects me to try to influence the beliefs of others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Scott, I couldn't have agreed with you more. Your comment is well said and should be practiced by many "christians." I think many "christians" cross the boundary when they try to recruit others. A lot don't have much respect for others who are in other denominations or are not religious at all. I have a friend who is a churchgoer and active in her religion. I am not much of a religious person nor do I care for religion. This friend, as much as I love her, tries all the time to recruit me into religion and her church. I have made it clear I am not interested yet she never gets the message. This is where many (not all) christians go wrong, they have little respect of others choices and/or beliefs

scottnc

02-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Croydon,

The proselyting part of my church is one of the things that soured me on organized religion. That said, I still believe in God & that Christ is the Son of God. My former religion is high - extreme - on modesty & covering up. I don't think I could be a nudist & a practicing Mormon, but I've seen posts on a site for Mormon nudists, so there are some who've reconciled the two lifestyles. I've read posts on various sites of people "pushing the envelope" by going nude in situations where nudity is not expected. My approach on nudity is the same as my approach on religion - it's not my role to force either on others. I think people should show consideration for all people, even if (and especially if) they disagree on subjects that are important to them personally.

Vin

02-09-2003, 07:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scottnc:
I attend no church now & don't consider myself to be spiritual, but I pray daily. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Something to consider: I would say that you are very spiritual, but not religious. There can be a canyon-size gulf between the two.

BB,
Vin

Christian Bare

02-10-2003, 05:04 AM

This appears to be a common theme amongst us Christians that are nudists. We may belong to a denomination or we may have been in a denomination at one point in our lives, but we were detracted from them for one reason or another.

The one great thing I see here is that most continue their journey as Christians even once they are out of the denomination. The one sad thing is that God wants us to come into fellowship under his name, and too often we become what I was for years and that is a "Loner for Jesus".

Though we can maintain a spiritual life that way, we often miss the mark of spreading the Gospel which is a central theme of our mission here on earth.

Coming from that background, I know that many times we feeled too burned by other people. Yes, there are many other reasons too, but we need to keep in mind that Christ said that we would suffer for following Him, just as HE suffered on the cross.

I'm not going to say we all should become so involved in a denomination that we lose our focus on Christ. JUst that we continue to meet with CHristians in the name of the LOrd and we spend some fellowship time, worshipping. Not in a cult, but purely in the name of JEsus and with basic doctrinal truth as our foundation. Christ died for our sins, he calls us to love GOd and others and to spread the good news of HIs death and resurrection.

Peace and Love!

Vin

02-10-2003, 06:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
The one sad thing is that God wants us to come into fellowship under his name, and too often we become what I was for years and that is a "Loner for Jesus".

Though we can maintain a spiritual life that way, we often miss the mark of spreading the Gospel which is a central theme of our mission here on earth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Keep in mind I mean this gently. I'm debating posting it even as I write it.

Some of the most functional Christians I know are loners. It took getting away from the church and learning to think for themselves, but they seem to have sorted out most of what Jesus actually said from what Paul & Co. wrote decades and centuries after the fact. What he actually preached is a beautiful thing.

That's not to say that there's not something to be gained from fellowship. But there may be too much potential for "herd mentality" to set in. That may explain why those who are solitaries do better; it's what works best for them. And we should respect their choices for how to follow their paths.

Finally, I'd say there's not a person on the planet who hasn't heard "The Good News (tm)" about Christianity by now. Those who want to follow the path are likely doing so; the rest of us have chosen other ways to the Divine. The job is done. You guys can stop now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bright Blessings,
Vin

Trailscout

02-10-2003, 06:55 AM

Vin,

I took no offense at your remarks and I don't think anyone else should either. I do disagree with you and I hope I can share my thoughts with equal kindness to yours.

I have been a loner Christian for many years and I have come to the conclusion that both solitude and fellowship are essential in every soul's progress toward the Lord. Even Jesus, who had a very public ministry, also set aside time of going directly to God alone in prayer. His most famous time was 40 days in the Wilderness of Judea immediately prior to the beginning of his public ministry, but throughout his time on earth, he regularly took time out for direct communion with God.

I think your warning about the herd mentality is well-taken. But I discovered that if my personal experience with the divine is solid from my solo time, I can then plug into a group of believers somewhere and not go off center from weird teachings. That does not mean that we can't learn from other people. There is a synergistic effect to learning that a total loner cannot take advantage of. That is true in a secular context as well. I remember having a girlfriend who shared my faith. There were times when we silently held each other close. Although we were not learning anything, I drew great comfort from her love and I am sure she felt the same. I see that you agree, since you said, "
That's not to say that there's not something to be gained from fellowship".

You stress the danger of fellowship, but I contend that it is a managable risk if you are centered.

Some organizations are disfunctional and very controlling. Some relationships are like that as well. Some people are drawn to controlling cults and authority figures. It would be foolish to assert that all relationships are negative experiences and equally wrong to assume that a gathering of people of faith is necessarily an evil thing.

I must also disagree with your comment that "...there's not a person on the planet who hasn't heard "The Good News (tm)" about Christianity by now".

I contend that most people have heard snippets of it, and millions have heard a warped version of the gospel, but I honestly think very few people have assimilated the core teachings of Jesus and the apostles and prophets.

I do not believe that strong arm tactics, high pressure sales pitches and endless door knocking is what God had in mind for the way to tell people that he loves them!

If a used car salesman is selling overpriced defective cars on television and concludes his remarks with "God Bless America", his last three words do not sanctify his crooked sales pitch.

I am convinced that the core of the gospel is love and that there is far too little love in this world. I intend to show it in word and deed.

Christian Bare

02-10-2003, 09:04 AM

Vin,

Following along with Trailscout's comments, I take no offense to your response either.

I appreciate and agree with the remarks that Trailscout had for us all.

Not just for you, but for me to, don't give up on other people because of negative experiences you've had with them. We are all under construction and will remain so until our final breath on this earth.

I have thoughts of how wonderful it would be to start up a church for nudists. But then I fear that man would take over and we would make a doctrine that said you had to be naked to worhip. That's where we get messed up in outside corporate churches.

Sticking to the basic teachings of Christ is essential. Even if just to gather with other Christians, reading the sermon on the mount, haveing a potluck and sharing prayer time.

As we see how others are affected and improved by their belief in Christ, we will have other areas of our lives revealed to us that can be improved. "Iron sharpens Iron".

I think, especially in the community that we participate in, it is essential to come together. Not to judge those around us who are not Christian, but to show that Christians can participate in this form of life.

I sometimes wonder, when at camp, how many folks around me that are not Christians, once were, but were shoved off by insensitive remarks from fellow Christians. I wonder how many around me have heard a distorted gospel and want nothing to do with such a thing. I wonder how many will be eternally lost if not for me teaching a simple faith, the life Jesus lead.

The other night I was in a History of Western Civilization class, it focusses on the Church. And the instructor mentioned a time in which men and women were baptized nude. A laday in the class (only 6 students) blushed and was completely offended by such an idea. Though I'm sure she shows the love of Christ almost all the time, she couldn't share to a non-Christian nudist. But we who Believe and believe can. And should continue the job to stop false teachings and bring faith back to a central theme as preached by the Son of God!

Peace and Blessings to you and yours...

Vin

02-10-2003, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
I took no offense at your remarks and I don't think anyone else should either....

I have been a loner Christian for many years and I have come to the conclusion that both solitude and fellowship are essential in every soul's progress toward the Lord....

There is a synergistic effect to learning that a total loner cannot take advantage of....

I must also disagree with your comment that "...there's not a person on the planet who hasn't heard "The Good News (tm)" about Christianity by now".... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whew! Glad I've not offended anyone. That truly was not my intention. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I quite agree that both solitary and group time are beneficial in one's spiritual walk, regardless of path. As you say, there's a synergy in group work that is absent when working solo. Likewise, there is a strength and power to working alone that is lost with a group. Some people need both, others are successful with only one.

The comment about "you can stop now" was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. However, realizing that I live in an area that is predominantly Christian, and that some of those groups believe that if they could just preach the ENTIRE gospel to non-Christians they would see the light, it is frustrating to see the lack of respect paid to non-Christian spirituality. I've heard all the gospel I care to. I can debate it as well as some Christian ministers. It's not my path, and I don't really want anyone spreading the gospel over me with a trowel. I'm quite happy with my path, thank you very much, and would appreciate being left alone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the world needing more love, I agree entirely! I'm not always successful at harming none, but I try.

Vin

02-10-2003, 01:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
Following along with Trailscout's comments, I take no offense to your response either....

Not just for you, but for me to, don't give up on other people because of negative experiences you've had with them....

I think, especially in the community that we participate in, it is essential to come together. Not to judge those around us who are not Christian, but to show that Christians can participate in this form of life.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really am glad I didn't offend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think it's only human nature to protect oneself from those one has learned have a negative effect. For some, unfortunately, that includes Christianity. Sometimes, this is because we've been brow-beaten, blackmailed, and terrorized with the gospel until we perceive the whole organized Christianity thing as dangerous.

There is also an element of expecting Christians to return our respect of their spiritual path. For some, that is very hard (read: impossible). I understand why, but that doesn't make it right.

As for Christian nudists, I would love nothing better than to see more of them. Not only could Christianity stand some lightening up, but I think a lot of hypocrisy and other negativity that has crept into the church over the millenia would be erased. It's awfully hard to be "holier-than-thou" standing around in your birthday suit with no social status symbols to fall back on. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I personally love the idea of a nude church, by the way. Of course, some Wiccan traditions _require_ nude rituals, so the idea isn't exactly new to me. But it would be a great idea, and might even lead to some interfaith dialog on how to help it succeed.

BB,
Vin

Christian Bare

02-10-2003, 03:34 PM

Vin,

Glad to see we are all one happy family here... I know I'm new to the group and being a minister I may go on a tangent and get off topic from now and again (habit with speaking).

I did have one very nice experience with other Christian Nudists. I met up with Cheef Dan, his wife and other Christians at Avalon a couple years ago for a marriage retreat. It was quite a nice time, sharing and Worshipping together.

There is a community out there and I have been plesantly surprised at the number of Christians I have met at other camps. TO keep this note somewhat on topic, I've met people of many deniminations, Methodist, Baptist, Church of God, and a couple other I cannot recall at this time.

One thing we all had in common was that we knew that we were free to worship in whatever manner we desired. None of our conversations ever went into the doctrinal grey area. We just keep to our common love of Christ.

Fresh Air

02-11-2003, 10:01 AM

I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist. Nudism was actually something I discovered on my own. While I don't go to church and advertise that I like nudism, I feel my church is very open minded and leaves much of 'how to believe' upto the individual rather than dogma. While some lifestyles are not condoned (such as some homosexual lifestyles) an individual is accepted by the church regardless of their orientation. I believe God's love is like that too. We are changed by Him, not for Him.

...I speak for the church families I have been a part of, I know views can vary with each church, but hopefully others share the same views.

Jochanaan

02-11-2003, 01:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scottnc:
I think God expects me to be honest, considerate, & charitable, but I don't think he expects me to try to influence the beliefs of others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, but with one quibble: I would say that God doesn't expect us to try to influence others' beliefs BY FORCE. After all, do we not, in many ways and by many means, try to influence others to believe in Jesus? Or to be more caring? Or to accept the possibility that nudity is not sinful? But force, physical, rhetorical, or otherwise, is not only a violation of free will, it's useless. As I've quoted before, "A man convinced against his will/Is of the same opinion still." Logic and facts backed by compassion are far better at breaking mental defenses than force.

gamblefish

02-11-2003, 02:46 PM

That's good Jochanaan.

One quote I've always liked but dunno who said it:

"Preach the Gospel everywhere...use words if necessary."

Christian Bare

02-11-2003, 07:40 PM

I know it just may be a case of wording, but I do think that God expects us to influence others beliefs.

Well said that this is not by force, nor is it mainly by words, but in our actions and our words we should be influencing others.

Purposefully and actively we should be presenting the Gospel, the simple but perfect Gospel. Teaching others gently with our love.

Never hiding the fact that we are Christians!

We are the messangers, we just need to preach and teach the pureness that Christ did.

Other topic in response to the Seventh Day Adventist noted above. I agree that we cannot surely speak for an entire denomination, but certainly and privately I've noted that few pastors can question me on nudism.

gamblefish

02-12-2003, 01:53 AM

I agree Christian.

I think the people we can influence the most are the ones with whom we have the most contact, those we work with and live around. Our way of living in front of others is our best witness.

Rather than exhausting someone with endless words I think it best to present our witness, preach the Gospel, and if it is not received we "shake the dust from our feet...".

Vin

02-12-2003, 06:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by gamblefish:
...I think it best to present our witness, preach the Gospel, and if it is not received we "shake the dust from our feet...". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But therein lies the rub. What gives anyone the right to present witness or preach the gospel uninvited? That is disrespectful of others' beliefs in that it implies that they are somehow inferior or invalid and must be improved or changed. It is an invasion of privacy, purely and simply. It is discourteous in the extreme.

Now, if I freely walk into a religious environment (say a church, synagogue, mosque, temple...) or ask a question, that's another thing. I expect to hear about those people's beliefs. But no one has the right to accost me on the sidewalk or at work (and certainly not at my own front door) to promote his/her religion.

Slightly off-topic, but...

A couple of my favorite Pagan responses to opening gambits of Christian witnesses:

"Have you found Jesus?"
"What?! You mean you lost him?"

"Jesus loves you."
"Yeah, I know. But Apollo loves me more, and he's a hotty!"

Bright Blessings,
Vin

Christian Bare

02-12-2003, 07:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by gamblefish:
...I think it best to present our witness, preach the Gospel, and if it is not received we "shake the dust from our feet...". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But therein lies the rub. What gives anyone the right to present witness or preach the gospel uninvited? That is disrespectful of others' beliefs in that it implies that they are somehow inferior or invalid and must be improved or changed. It is an invasion of privacy, purely and simply. It is discourteous in the extreme.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No Vin, it is discourteous if we do not present the truth. How would you feel if someone had kept from telling you the truth and you ended up in hell for ever? Maybe you would have understood and responded...

There are not many paths to one end. To believe so contradicts the direct and simple teachings of Jesus. This is not denominationalism, this is Christianity...

Far off topic now...

Jochanaan

02-12-2003, 07:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
But therein lies the rub. What gives anyone the right to present witness or preach the gospel uninvited? That is disrespectful of others' beliefs in that it implies that they are somehow inferior or invalid and must be improved or changed. It is an invasion of privacy, purely and simply. It is discourteous in the extreme.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No Vin, it is discourteous if we do not present the truth. How would you feel if someone had kept from telling you the truth and you ended up in hell for ever? Maybe you would have understood and responded...

There are not many paths to one end. To believe so contradicts the direct and simple teachings of Jesus. This is not denominationalism, this is Christianity... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The key word here is "uninvited." The proselytizing spirit cannot be exorcised from Christianity without undoing it completely. We Christians indeed believe that the Lord has visited us in the person of Jesus of Nazareth; this is radical and sectarian to outsiders but life and health to us who believe it. But this best news has far more impact coming from a compassionate friend than from a thundering preacher.

Soooo--it behooves us to make friends of those who have never heard! Not just so we can spread the Word and build His church, but for our sakes as well, for we all need friends. The invitations will come--if we who believe live inviting lives.

Vin

02-12-2003, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
What gives anyone the right to present witness or preach the gospel uninvited? That is disrespectful of others' beliefs in that it implies that they are somehow inferior or invalid and must be improved or changed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No Vin, it is discourteous if we do not present the truth. How would you feel if someone had kept from telling you the truth and you ended up in hell for ever? Maybe you would have understood and responded...

There are not many paths to one end. To believe so contradicts the direct and simple teachings of Jesus. This is not denominationalism, this is Christianity... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it is discourteous to present your own version of truth as superior. It is particularly discourteous to do so uninvited. I am quite happy and comfortable with my spiritual path, thank you, and I don't for a minute believe that the God and Goddess want me to change it. I find them accepting and respectful of us all, not running an exclusive club that only the initiated can enter. I also find them to be simply different aspects of the universal godhead, so in one sense there's no need to tell me about your truth -- I've already accepted my own and they all come from the same source.

All religions are indeed valid paths to whatever end religion serves. They all lead to the same place. Since I reject the Christian hell or a god who feels the need for it, I don't really believe that is where these paths lead.

Vin

02-12-2003, 11:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
But this best news has far more impact coming from a compassionate friend than from a thundering preacher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Even more than needing friends, though, we need to respect each other and to learn to find the strengths in our differences. Rather than try to convert you to a Pagan path (which wouldn't happen -- Pagans don't generally proselytize), I would far rather sit down and discuss what _you've_ learned about the Divine. When we put that together with what _I've_ learned and with what CB has learned and with what everyone else has learned, we may each walk away with something new that enriches us. We come away far stronger for our sharing than for trying to belittle or to change each other.

Vin

Christian Bare

02-12-2003, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
But this best news has far more impact coming from a compassionate friend than from a thundering preacher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Even more than needing friends, though, we need to respect each other and to learn to find the strengths in our differences. Rather than try to convert you to a Pagan path (which wouldn't happen -- Pagans don't generally proselytize), I would far rather sit down and discuss what _you've_ learned about the Divine. When we put that together with what _I've_ learned and with what CB has learned and with what everyone else has learned, we may each walk away with something new that enriches us. We come away far stronger for our sharing than for trying to belittle or to change each other.

Vin <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And thus we reach the point at which we must brush the dust from our sandals and move on to other territory. There is one truth and one way. To accept something only true for yourself serves no eternal purpose.

For those who are Christian here, which Vin has stated he rejects, keep focussed on the teachings of Jesus. He is the one way. We must, kindly and gently, but at times strongly share the Gospel with all.

The person who does not believe in one eternal truth is not necesarily a bad person, but certainly misguided. We should still shine our light in loving kindness around them.

But that same person is the most difficult to evangelize and takes a toll on those who try. This is why we were told to move on. If we stay too long in the darkness, we risk our own beliefs.

Vin

02-12-2003, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
There is one truth and one way. To accept something only true for yourself serves no eternal purpose....

The person who does not believe in one eternal truth is not necesarily a bad person, but certainly misguided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd say we have, indeed, reached the time to part ways. I am not at all "misguided," nor do I appreciate the implied conceit in that judgment of my beliefs. You are entitled to your beliefs, certainly, and I can respect them. I can even respect the fact that you think I'm wrong. I would even defend your right to hold them. I do not respect your need to pass judgment simply because I believe differently from you. That is offensively discourteous, and one of the reasons I object to Christianity in most of its forms.

And of course it serves a purpose if one accepts a truth only for him/herself. Since we are each ultimately a part of the universal spirit, each individual truth represents one more contribution to the ultimate truth, whatever that is.

Bright Blessings,
Vin

Rik

02-12-2003, 02:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
The person who does not believe in one eternal truth is not necesarily a bad person, but certainly misguided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What utter arrogance! It is attitudes such as this that create many of the problems we see in the world today.

Rik

Vin

02-12-2003, 02:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christian Bare:
For those who are Christian here, which Vin has stated he rejects, keep focussed on the teachings of Jesus. He is the one way. We must, kindly and gently, but at times strongly share the Gospel with all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And another thing.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you want to quote me, by all means do so. But please quote ME, not what you wish I'd said to make the argument easier.

I never said I reject those who are Christian. I said I don't accept the Christian need for a place of eternal torment as a tool of fear to keep people in line. And I don't know about you, but any "god" who needed such a place to terrorize its followers into behaving is not one I consider worthy of worship anyway. Pity maybe, but certainly not reverence.

And I maintain that NO ONE has the right to "strongly share the Gospel with all." The minute I tell you to leave me alone, it's over. If you continue, I have the right to file a harrassment complaint. Mention hell and I'll add terroristic threatening to it.

I really don't see why Christians have such a need to be Right. They have no more insight into spiritual matters than the rest of us.

BB,
Vin